In Pakistan, our "friend and ally," "at least 700 Christian girls are kidnapped and forced to convert to Islam every year." And sold abroad or not, any fate for Farah Hatim short of her being reunited with her family and legally recognized again as a Christian, and not a Muslim, is intolerable.
There is supposedly "no compulsion in religion" (Qur'an 2:256). And so Farah was made to sign a document saying she married and converted freely. Is there "no compulsion" in kidnapping victims' signing documents, too?
The claim of "no compulsion" is a shell game in practice: all claims about "compulsion" aside, Islamic law is replete in letter and spirit with numerous means of coercion to convert. In Qur'an 9:29 itself, the alternatives to conversion are subjugation or war. The goal is to make life so difficult, so terrifying, and so intolerable as to make the targeted non-Muslims convert under duress... at which point their overlords will crow about their supposedly "free" choice.
And most crucially, after a certain point, the lines between persuasion and compulsion become blurred, and those doing the compelling could care less, because it is difficult, if not dangerous, to challenge those wielding power under Islamic law on where the distinction lies.
An update on this story. "Kidnapped Pakistani Christian may be sold abroad," from Catholic Culture, June 13 (thanks to Twostellas):
Pakistani Catholic sources have told the Fides news agency that a 24-year-old Christian woman who was kidnapped, forced to convert to Islam, and forced to marry a Muslim may soon be sold abroad.
Farah Hatim, 24, “was forced to sign a declaration stating that she had converted and married [according] to her will,” said a Pakistani nun. “The text was brought to the police and in court, so legally the case is considered closed. It will be possible to reopen it only with a written statement, in which Farah testifies that these communications were drawn out by threats and torture.”
The nun called for prayer and international pressure to help secure Hatim’s releases.
There are over 700 cases of forced conversion to Islam in Pakistan each year, according to Fides.
There are probably more than that nowadays. More: "Fear for Farah, Catholic girl drugged and forced to sign the conversion to Islam," from Fides, June 9:
Lahore (Fides Service) - There are fears for the life of Farah Hatim, the Catholic girl kidnapped and forced into marriage and conversion to Islam in the city of Rahim Yar Khan in southern Punjab (see Fides 08/06/2011 7 and ). As the girl`s family refer to Fides, Farah is constantly drugged and her life is in danger. Meanwhile, attempts to discourage the family to carry on with the request to free Farah are still in progress. Yesterday Qasim and Huma Hatim, the victim`s brother and sister, were summoned by the local police who showed them the marriage certificate, a declaration of conversion to Islam and a picture of Farah, in traditional Muslim clothes. The police concluded that "everything is in order", stressing the request to abandon all claims on behalf of the family. According to Huma and Qasim, the documents are obviously artifacts. The supposed signatures of Farah are in Urdu – they observe- while the girl used to sign in English. In the photo, moreover, the girl is totally veiled, "to hide the beatings", they said. "The police wants to convince us to forget Farah, but we will carry on" say the family members.
"It will be very difficult to win this battle and get the girl back", said His Excellency Mgr Lawrence Saldanha to Fides, Archbishop Emeritus of Lahore , and for several years President of the Episcopal Conference. "The law is not in our favor, and then there is a lot of pressure on Christians and public officials' he remarks. "It must be said that our Justice and Peace Commission document numerous cases like this. And many cases remain unsolved, because Christians are threatened and are afraid to expose themselves. These are blatant violations of human rights, freedom of conscience and religion".
As already reported in recent months to Fides from local sources, forced conversions to Islam, rapes and forced marriages are increasing in Pakistan. The victims are mostly Hindu and Christian girls, the most vulnerable because they come from poor, defenseless, marginalized communities, therefore easily exposed to harassment, threats and violence. They often do not have the courage to denounce the assaults.
We who are still free must speak out for them. There should be no foreign aid to Pakistan until Farah Hatim is released. And Saba and Anila Masih. And Asia Bibi, Hector Aleem, all non-Muslim captives, and all Pakistani prisoners of conscience, especially those held for "blasphemy."
The goal is to make life so difficult, so terrifying, and so intolerable as to make the targeted non-Muslims convert under duress...
Which is why the Christian communities of Asia Minor and North Africa largely disappeared in the centuries after the jihad conquest. See "The Decline of Eastern Christianity Under Islam" by Bat Ye'or and "The History of the Armenian Genocide" by Vahakn Dadrian, et al.
The treacherous Caliph Hussein Obama and the Democrats, who cared not one bit for such mass abduction, rape and sexual salvery of non-Muslim women, especially Christians in Pakistan and other Islamic-ruled countries, is evil beyond words! Now onder, the female Kuwaiti politician can openly declared to legalize enslaving sexually non-Muslim Russian women! The Arabic-Islamic culture is Satanic evil through and through! Islam after all, is created by the Arabic Pedophile rapist, robber, slave-owner (including sexual slaves such as young Jewish captive girls), and mass murderer of the Jews, 'Mohammed', in order to construct pure Arabian kingdom and legitimize his and his tribe’s evil and savage Arabic socio-cultural practises and god, especially against Judeo-Christian shared God and civilized tradition and laws.
Let's just see if this raises any concern from the Obama Administration. Or their friends in the press.
http://www.contactingthecongress.org/
It would be interesting to do a series just on 'Christianophopbia' / 'Kuffarophobia'.
Anti Christian attacks / statements in the Muslim world occur on a daily basis.
And there's certainly polling evidence that Muslims are far more intolerant of Christians in 'moderate' Turkey and Indonesia than Westerners are of Muslims.
I just want to remind that Pakistani Muslims have been doing this kidnapping and forceful conversion of Hindu and other non-Muslim women ever since its formation in 1947. This is going on even now, almost everyday whether it makes the news or not with the blessings of their government which simply doesn't take any action against the Muslims doing this despicable atrocity against the minority women. Of course, this goes on in most Muslim nations, e.g., Coptic Christian women in Egypt, Christians in Algiers, Morocco, Nigeria, Somalia, Iraq, Iran, etc. Perhaps this atrocity against the non-Muslims happen in all Muslim nations and yet the UN has nothing to say about it. They are all hypocrites and the stupid UN Human rights commission is full of Muslim nation members!! What a travesty!!1
I'm really confused here (cough).
If someone converts to Islam, how can they be sold? I thought that servitude (cough) ended upon conversion.
Where are the trolls, uh, experts (cough, cough)? Perhaps they can explain this.
OT
Minister: 135 left Islam within 2000-2010
KUALA LUMPUR, June 14 — The federal government has allowed 135 to leave Islam between 2000 to 2010, Datuk Seri Jamil Khir Baharom said today.
A total of 686 applied to Syariah Courts throughout the country to leave Islam in those ten years...
http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/malaysia/article/135-left-islam-from-2000-2010-says-minister/
Hello Tom,
I'd take this whole story with a pinch of salt. I have been to Pakistan many many times and never come across a story like this...it smacks of lies, innuendo and basic BS.
Pakistan has the honour of having South Asia’s highest population growth rate (2.1% conservative).
On average, two people died and eight were born every minute in Pakistan in 2010, meaning the country’s population increased by six people every minute of the year, on average. This translates into a growth in the Pakistani population of half a million people just in the last year. This would be added to the estimated population of 177.1 million as of July 1st 2010.
Compare this to just 40M people at time of partition.
NOw with Sooooo many top muslimas to choose from ...why would you even bother with a low grade woman of another religion.
Quite likely the truth is that as the minorities are just that ...a minority...this woman fell in love with a virile muslim man and is now looking to make it into a permanent relationship.
Obvoulsly her family don't like it ...and are trying to force the issue with the police.
There is nothing to see here people...move on ...and let Farah enjoy her new life as a muslima ....if that is what she wants
Pakistan: Catholic woman kidnapped, drugged, and forced to convert to Islam and marry a Muslim may now be sold abroad
...
There is supposedly "no compulsion in religion" (Qur'an 2:256). And so Farah was made to sign a document saying she married and converted freely. Is there "no compulsion" in kidnapping victims' signing documents, too?
............................
Does Farah Hatim also freely agree *to being sold abroad*? Good God.
More:
The claim of "no compulsion" is a shell game in practice: all claims about "compulsion" aside, Islamic law is replete in letter and spirit with numerous means of coercion to convert. In Qur'an 9:29 itself, the alternatives to conversion are subjugation or war. The goal is to make life so difficult, so terrifying, and so intolerable as to make the targeted non-Muslims convert under duress... at which point their overlords will crow about their supposedly "free" choice.
............................
Very true. The "Pact of Umar"—the original document laying out the strictures of Islam for oppressed dhimmis—was also formulated as dhimmis *asking to be oppressed* in exchange for their lives. Appalling and humiliating, and intended to be so.
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/pact-umar.html
More:
There are over 700 cases of forced conversion to Islam in Pakistan each year, according to Fides.
There are probably more than that nowadays.
............................
There probably are. I believe there have always been cases like those of poor Farah Hatim—but now there seem to be more of them, and less and less care is taken to provide them with even a fig leaf of believability.
A Kuwaiti parliamentary candidate is calling for institutionalized sex slavery, and an Egyptian Imam is calling for Jihad for booty and slaves—this is becoming more and more blatant.
Islam is feeling its power, and Infidels are the first to suffer.
More:
Farah is constantly drugged and her life is in danger. Meanwhile, attempts to discourage the family to carry on with the request to free Farah are still in progress.
............................
And these attempts to stymie her family are carried out not by criminal kidnappers, but by the *Pakistani authorities*.
More:
Yesterday Qasim and Huma Hatim, the victim`s brother and sister, were summoned by the local police who showed them the marriage certificate, a declaration of conversion to Islam and a picture of Farah, in traditional Muslim clothes. The police concluded that "everything is in order", stressing the request to abandon all claims on behalf of the family. According to Huma and Qasim, the documents are obviously artifacts. The supposed signatures of Farah are in Urdu – they observe- while the girl used to sign in English. In the photo, moreover, the girl is totally veiled, "to hide the beatings", they said. "The police wants to convince us to forget Farah, but we will carry on" say the family members.
............................
I cannot imagine the agony Farah's family is experiencing—and the threats they are facing if they do not abandon their efforts to save her.
And would that this were just one awful miscarriage of justice, in one corner of Dar-al-Islam. But it is not. Not only is this going on all over the Muslim world to Christian, and Hindu, and Sikh, and animist and atheist girls, but it has happened throughout the long and terrible history of Islam for almost 1400 years.
More:
As already reported in recent months to Fides from local sources, forced conversions to Islam, rapes and forced marriages are increasing in Pakistan. The victims are mostly Hindu and Christian girls, the most vulnerable because they come from poor, defenseless, marginalized communities, therefore easily exposed to harassment, threats and violence. They often do not have the courage to denounce the assaults.
............................
And these victims are so particularly vulnerable for the *exact same reason* that they are victims in the first place—these are Infidels in Dar-al-Islam, who have *no rights*, and whose security is at constant risk from any Muslim who decides that an Infidel's land, or property, or business, or—as here—marriageable daughter—catches their eye.
More:
We who are still free must speak out for them. There should be no foreign aid to Pakistan until Farah Hatim is released. And Saba and Anila Masih. And Asia Bibi, Hector Aleem, and all non-Muslim captives and prisoners of conscience, especially those held for "blasphemy."
............................
**Yes Yes Yes**. If Farah Hatim's family does back down—out of fear of what may happen to the rest of the family trapped as they are in the maw of Islam, it will be understandable.
If *we* in the comparative safety of the civilized world back down, what does that say about us?
For this reason one should always review the arguments regarding Islam,take notes,review,memorize.I have several times viewed the Hitchens vs Ramadan,2010 Debate:"Is Islam a religion of Peace?.Here is part 1:
http://youtu.be/iHVW2eM1qSo
PLUS
The debate Wood vs Ataie on "Who is Muhammad?"
http://www.antisharia.com/2011/06/14/what-a-debatedavid-wood-vs-ali-ataie-on-who-was-muhammad/
Haha, Tom asks where are the trolls, and Baklava shows with the usual denials followed by obfuscations...
Pakistan may have a population explosion, but how many of those babies are normal? Pakistan has a high rate of hemophilia and other blood conditions, as well as a mental health problem...
Sure. It's like getting fresh genetic code. It's a wonder they just don't steal the girls and harvest their eggs and put them inside Muslim women.
But, of course, it's about power and domination and extortion, isn't it?
Christian girl? Of "low grade"? Thank you, troll, for confirming what we already know about Muslims' opinion of non-Muslims.
Truly an ideology to be vaporized.
Once again, Baklava the barbarian spins his lies. Pakistanis hate infidels, and I hate my taxes being wasted on that hate-filled basket case. In the West we are productive and civilized. The Westernised part of the world is what drives it. The Islamic part of the world contributes nothing, leeches off us, and murders our citizens in atrocities like 9/11. Yours is the most hateful cult the planet has seen in 6,000 years of human civilization. It is a destroyer, not a builder. It is backward and primitive, and doesn't value women, except as brood sows. You and your sort aren't wanted here in the West, and for very good reason, because if Muslims dominated the West, Western women would be treated as barbarically as that Pakistani Christian.
We ought to know the sub-ape Baklava by now. He is a hate-filled misogynistic turd, and is typical of what Muslims are like. Of course, the medicines and vaccines invented by those he sees as lower than filth were clearly wasted on that lowlife.
Tom, you can ignore the BS by baklava and BS is not bitter sweet. Muslim injunction against buying and selling muslims is for real muslims. Not non muslims who are forced into islam by torture and threats.
Since she is really a piece of property under islam, she is a slave and they can buy and sell her like any other property. From muhammed’s time they have been capturing non muslims and turning them into slaves regardless whether they convert to islam. If they do convert to islam by themselves, than it’s up to the owner to decide to keep them, sell or free them.
There's very little, if not nothing, to do about individuals captured and or held hostage my Muslims. If Christians et al are enslaved by Muslims it's more or less too late to do much about it because those caught are not able to help us help them, and we would need all of their free and determined effort as able actors to help them flee in the first place, assuming we were doing anything constructive and concrete in the first place. Of course, we do no such thing.
If there were a place in the world, an open space where people could get to, however they came, where people could claim legitimate refuge from Islamic oppression, what I call a Christian Zion, then maybe we could assist people going to such a place. But I'm not seeing a taxi service for refugees from Islam. The best we can do, assuming anyone other than CGW and I care to see such, is to create a place where refugees are able to go to be as safe from Islam as they can be in the world. After that, it would be up to would-be refugees to get there on their own. Create or carve out some relatively safe haven for Christians, and hope others can by their own efforts and through their own desires will get there to do whatever they choose to continue to do with their lives. That would be a land of freedom, a hard place to survive and one meant for the strong and free. That would be, in time, a great nation.
If people have a real goal, some will make it. If our goal is to create a destination for Christian refugees, then they will come. One can do no more. But what a great thing one could do if only one cared to.
Catholic woman kidnapped, drugged, and forced to convert to Islam and marry a Muslim may now be sold abroad.
Shocking, truly, that such a thing could even be conceived of, let alone happen.
*** 33:21 ***
But that's the magic of Islam: the outrageous to us civilized folk is normal and quotidien to them, and thus gets consigned to below the fold in section B if it makes the news at all.
Hey troll - try a search on "google" about "Pakistani Christian may be sold abroad".
I got over 1 000 000 hits in microseconds. You pathetic creeping paki trying to falsify the information that is well known around the world. As duh had pointed out more than 50% of your population (source WHO) is genetically demented.
Pakies contribution to the Western world - "Although British Pakistanis account for three per cent of the births in this country (UK), they are responsible for 33 per cent of the 15 to 20,000 children born each year with genetic defects.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-514911/Tragedy-children-born-genetic-defects-parents-cousins.html#ixzz1PHuR8hPH
"
Well, since there is "no compulsion in religion," the case is closed, right?
Disgusting.
One's mind boggles at the arithmetic of how many Jewish, Christian, Hindu, Zoroastrian, Buddhist, and pagan women suffered this fate over the last fourteen centuries; and the human soul is outraged by the suffering visited upon the untold myriads of women whose sentence it was to suffer at the hands of their Muslim kidnappers.
That these atrocities still occur in the twenty-first century is the most disgusting fact of all.
Why won't you answer my question, "Yvdirtrider?" Perhaps a re-post of some of the insults and smut that JIM FOSTER chucked around this site would help jog your memory? I'll be happy to provide some of those posts. Or, perhaps you're really not the banned JIM FOSTER trying to hide under this "dirtrider" subterfuge? Hey, just askin'...
"Baklava" wrote:
Pakistan has the honour of having South Asia’s highest population growth rate (2.1% conservative)...
NOw with Sooooo many top muslimas to choose from ...why would you even bother with a low grade woman of another religion.
...................................
Here's more "Islamic logic"—if the number of "top muslimas" has increased with Pakistan's out of control birthrate, then it is likely that the number of unattached, horny males has increased as well.
"Baklava" can boast about the "Jihad of the womb" here if he so desires, but the *only* way in which these statistics bear on these cases of forced conversion at all is that Muslims are fast out-breeding Christians, Hindus, and Sikhs in Pakistan—which, when added to murder, expulsion, emigration, and forced conversion—make Infidels there more threatened than ever.
The vile "Baklava" continues:
I'd take this whole story with a pinch of salt. I have been to Pakistan many many times and never come across a story like this...it smacks of lies, innuendo and basic BS.
...................................
Does this smack of "basic BS" as well?
"(Pakistan) Kidnapped Hindu girls forced to convert to Islam"
Karachi: An alarming trend — that of Muslims kidnapping Pakistani Hindu girls and forcing them to convert to Islam — in Pakistan’s Sindh province is forcing the worried resident Hindu community to marry off their daughters as soon as they are of marriageable age or to migrate to India, Canada or other nations.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=5e7_1220445911
"Islam and forced conversion"
http://www.faithfreedom.org/articles/op-ed/islam-and-forced-conversion/
I could go on all day posting links to stories of forced conversion of girls in Pakistan—and of Coptic girls in Egypt, and Christian and animist girls in Nigeria, and Chinese girls in Indonesia...
More:
Quite likely the truth is that as the minorities are just that ...a minority...
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What "Baklava" here means is that they are an oppressed, despised, and threatened minority—because there isn't any other kind of minority in undemocratic, Muslim-supremacist Dar-al-Islam.
As for this assertion from "Baklava":
"NOw with Sooooo many top muslimas to choose from ...why would you even bother with a low grade woman of another religion."
That makes it difficult to explain this, from the first story I linked to:
When a Hindu girl is converted to Islam, hundreds of extremists belonging to religious parties such as Maulana Fazlur Rehman’s Jamiat-e-Ulema Islam (JUI), take to the streets and chant religious slogans.
In Sapna’s case, when she was presented in court with Dasti, extremists showered rose petals on them and loudly chanted religious slogans. The fanaticism was so daunting that Sapna was too frightened to even speak with her own parents who were also present in the courtroom.
...................................
Muslim have always crowed over conversions to Islam—whether the Infidels convert out of ignorance and foolishness; out of viciousness, as is so common with prison conversions; or merely out of terror for their own lives, or the lives of their loved ones, as here.
Between forced and coerced conversions and the death penalty for leaving that vile creed—as well as Baklava's aforementioned forced breeding program—Islam is always looking to grow the Ummah, and Muslims don't care how much suffering they cause in the process.
More:
There is nothing to see here people...move on ...and let Farah enjoy her new life as a muslima ....if that is what she wants
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And if it's *not* what she wants? Well, Muslims have made sure that she doesn't really have any other choice...
Just once I would just love to read a story like this and have it end by saying that the Christian girl's father, mother, sister, brother , cousin or Christian defender pulled out a 357 magnum or even a 45 cal. pistol or revolver and shot
the kidnapped girl's Muslim husband and some of the kidnappers. If a story like that could happen just once a year I would bet anything the number of Christian girls kidnapped and forced to convert would drastically drop
The only way to stop this is to arm the Christians and train them to develop anti-kidnapping squads. Let's see how brave and brazen the Moslems are when a quick reaction units kills the kidnappers.
Developing an anti kidnapping squad would also serve notice to the regime that persecution is no longer permitted or tolerated.
xavier
right, and all the overwhelming majority of muslim porkies are just going to sit there while the christians get armed. All you will need is one incident of a christian defending himself with a pistol against a muslim, and then next day the militery would rush in to seize all the weapons of every christians , and that would be just for starters.
Xavier832 wrote:
Just once I would just love to read a story like this and have it end by saying that the Christian girl's father, mother, sister, brother , cousin or Christian defender pulled out a 357 magnum or even a 45 cal. pistol or revolver and shot
the kidnapped girl's Muslim husband and some of the kidnappers. If a story like that could happen just once a year I would bet anything the number of Christian girls kidnapped and forced to convert would drastically drop
.......................................
Xavier, I can tell you what would happen. The girl and her family would be killed. The girl's Christian community would be violently targeted, the parish church burned down, and large numbers of her fellow Christians murdered.
Muslims in other parts of Dar-al-Islam might start attacking their Christian minorities, too—this is what happened when a Coptic woman in Egypt *had the temerity to swear she had not converted to Islam*, and wanted to return to her Christian family and community—not only were other Copts targeted and killed, but so were Christians *in Iraq*.
This *does not mean that I do not believe in self-defense*—far from it. But Christians make up just 1.6% of the population of Pakistan (Hindus—also oppressed—make up about 5.5%).
Fighting back in the manner you suggest would, I'm afraid—just get them all killed.
*We* are funding this Islamic hell-hole through boatloads of "foreign aid". The least we should do is threaten to cut off some of that aid if they Pakistan doesn't begin to treat religious minorities in a more decent manner.
Many people seem to think that the Third World is just like the Modern World except that the former is poverty-stricken. I see the Third World as just like the Middle Ages but rich. Pakistan and other Medieval areas aren't like America but instead with strange and evil ways: they are so different that one cannot begin to understand them as they are without completely abandoning all of ones common understandings of how things are and should be. What we take to be natural and normal and so obviously right that only someone totally insane could differ from is for many not at all what we understand. Example: All mothers love their children all over the world for all times. We know this to be so obviously true that no one needs to argue in favour of it, and only a lunatic would say otherwise. Hello. Meet your lunatic.
Mothers all over the world do not love their children just because they are mothers of children. This is a relatively new phenomenon. Love, as we know it, is only a matter of a few hundred years old, and it is limited to a few nations in the Modern world. For most people, even mothers, children are domestic animals created for a purpose, like chickens and goats and cows: they are labour and resource. Children are competitors for food and other scarce resources, and if they don't produce something more than screaming and shit they are evil parasites better gotten rid of before they cause others to die. "Love" has nothing to do with it. If kids die, one replaces them with other kids. "Love" is only natural to those who aren't on the edge of starvation all the time they live. This is a lunatic statement only to those who do not know what real poverty is. Elsewhere it's not even something one would think about. Sentiment is luxury. Poor people can't afford it. Most people in the West assume that a mother loving her children is so good that all mothers do so all the time everywhere; but let me tell you that this is dead wrong. It is exceptional.
Mothers don't love their children, and the idea of Truth is so foreign to most people as to be incomprehensible. Truth is dependent, for many, on the nature to how things are at the moment. If the spirits want something to be in some way, then they are, and that is Truth. If Allah wishes something to be other than it is in the physical world, then so it is, and man has no say in it. There is no secular truth. Why can we negotiate with Muslims? Because they don't have a standard of truth we can agree on. Just the way it is, regardless of whether I appear to me a lunatic. It is a strange world. Normal is not what we assume it is. It changes according to who one speaks with.
Life is precious? Not to many. Most people don't think of themselves as people all. What they think is that they are members of a whole group of people spread across space and time, past and present. If one is lost, this is not important so long as he is replaced by someone as good or better. No one has his own thoughts and feelings, he has everyone's thoughts and feeling, for otherwise he is an outcast from the group, and worthy of murder. There is no "me and you," there is only us and them. We are the strange ones in the world, and we aren't well liked or respected for it. In fact, most people want to kill us and to smash our cultures.
So, pulling out a gun and shooting the bad guys in Pakistan is not going to happen. One cannot have a gun just because. If the clan is committed to war, then all men can have a gun, but they can only kill others if they are allowed to. They can kill one of them. It doesn't matter who that other is, all others being the same, i.e. others. Kill one of "ours" and one brings down the wrath of the whole tribe out to avenge the death of a member of the group. It doesn't matter, thus, if mum is innocent of being a slut; if she is seen by others to be a slut, then she has to die to save the group's honour. Who cares who mum is anyway. She's just a place holder in the continuum of the group, one figure neither here nor there in the face of the eternal group. Shooting a kidnapper or a rapist is not going to stop anyone from counter-attacking any random member of the other group in revenge. No deterrence. And when there are 100 of them to one of us, the odds are poor, and the expectation of winning is useless.
When lunatic is normal, one learns to deal with it or one dies. When lunatic is normal and one insists on it being rational, then the rational man is a fool. The lunatic, being the group, walks away laughing. Let's try to deal with reality, strange and terrible as it is. Let's try to win.
Hello Graven,
I am not "vile" or anything like that....I am a British citizen of Pakistani descent...and a law abiding one at that too.
It is true that many of muslims thought processes are for the support of Islam...but I see nothing wrong with that.
You talk about Jihad and the violent verses in the Quaran...true....but there are so many hate verses in the old testament too...it has dozens of violent and barbaric verses in it. The difference here is that the christian thought that he knew better than God and took them out....that does not mean that God didn't mean them does it?....it just means that the christian has outgrown god...has lost his respect for God....you people are now no use to God...we are the chosen ones now, you had your chance and you blew it.
As to hindu hit squads....it's a nay to that.. Hindus have been living within the muslims community for hundreds of years now...and they know their place....the clever ones work with us, the rest know their place...a hindu hit squad....hahahaha it's an oxymoron for those morons.
It seems there is only one thing for persecuted Christians and other minorities in Muslim countries, and that is to escape to the nearest infidel land. That means getting into India for Pakistani Christians, Hindus and Sikhs, and for Coptic Christians that means getting into Israel. The Israelis will need as many loyal citizens as possible over the coming months and years, as another 1967 or 1973 is a matter of when, not if. The problem is when the nearest infidel country is hundreds of miles away, rather than on your border. If this isn't possible, then it seems that the likes of Patrick Henry from 1775 has to be evoked http://libertyonline.hypermall.com/henry-liberty.html regardless of the consequences. If you're outnumbered 100 to one by brutal killers and you know that you and your family are going to be killed, at least go down trying to take out as many of those 100 as you possibly can.
You are not a British citizen. You're not loyal to Britain. You're just here in Britain with the rest of your brood. You sneer at those who give you a good life and don't disguise your contempt for infidels. Back to Pakistan you go, parasite.
And by saying that Hindus know their place, you're showing a sneering contempt for Hindus as well
Baklava is vile, all right. If he/she *is* based in Britain, bet your boots he/she is sucking up all benefits possible, whilst sneering and laughing at us.
But Baklava is too stupid to realise the tide is beginning to turn. People in Britain are beginning to wake up, as they are all over the world, and it's going to come down to a war, I think. Which *we* will win. islam is inimical to everything that is good, and will be rejected by human beings with any humanity. No surrender !
Son of walker
I think you are overstating your case somewhat.
It has not been the case, not at least since Yaacov/ Yisrael wrestled with the Angel, that *all* human groups saw themselves only as interchangeable cogs in a collective, or that *all* human groups have universally hated, or tended to hate, their children, and have universally practised infanticide.
There was, I am told at least one pagan Greek traveller who observed, in tones of some astonishment, that "the Jews raise ALL their children". (By this, meaning that they did not expose infants, and most particularly, that they did NOT destroy their girl-children).
That was a long, long, long time ago. All you have to do is to read the TaNaKh and you realize where our concepts of sanctity of human life and the significance of each particular person -whether that person chooses good or evil - ultimately came from. They are the gifts of the Jews; the gifts of the same people who conceived of a God who 'calls the stars by their names' and who were therefore also able to conceive of such a God calling by name each individual human being. (If you haven't read Tom Cahill's "the gifts of the Jews', or Rosenzweig's "the Star of Redemption', you really should). And you should read the chapter 'The Face of the Faceless" in David Bentley Hart's 'Atheist Delusions: The Christian Revolution and Its Fashionable Enemies'. My only quibble with the title of Hart's book is that the Christian Revolution which he brilliantly delineates, was basically a pouring outward, and a logical extension or continuation or further exposition, of the Hebrew Revolution which had already been underway for centuries.
As witness Berman's brilliant article on the downright revolutionary implications of the Sinai covenant - 'God's Alliance With Man'.
http://www.azure.org.il/article.php?id=131
The covenant is not of God with some godking; nor is it simply with 'Israel' considered purely as a collective; it plays out between *each* individual Israelite who stands before YHWH in his own right as a subordinate king, giving and receiving honour in so doing. That has huge implications for how the individual is seen - and valued.
Children, in Hebrew society and then in Christian societies, are given, as soon as born, the name they will bear all their lives - even named with that name, before birth. In many, perhaps most other cultures the newborn were not given names until it was decided whether they would be reared...and even so, they weren't usually given their 'true' or adult name until it seemed likely they would survive (perhaps not even until puberty). By contrast, I have seen the family bible of my German Lutheran great-great-grandparents. They had seventeen children, one of whom died in early infancy, one of whom died at age four. *All* the children's names are written in that Bible; and only a day or so - at most, three or four days - after the birth, there is another date, 'Getaufen'. Dunked. Baptised. Formally, publicly received as a member of the community; at an age and in a time when that child might not survive another week, or month, or year. Nevertheless: known by name.
Jews, and then Christians, insisted on naming the newborn..even the unborn. Whatever the failures of medieval child-rearing practices - it took a long time for the full implications of Christian anthropology to be 'unpacked', in this as also in the slow, slow but inexorable process of coming to recognise that slavery was simply incompatible with the Christian understanding of the human being - that, and that alone, in and of itself, indicates that something revolutionary is going on.
Jan,
Have the curteosy of talking to me if you are gonna talk about me.
I am all for telling the truth...no niceties for me...hindus have their place and their uses....nothing personal.
Not to be impatient but you misconstrued nearly every point I made.
Your comment regarding the differences between the Modern and the Third World was illuminating. Previously I would have assumed that all mothers, except for those who are insane would love their children, but now I see that is not the case. It make sense when just surviving is so hard that love, truth, life and individuality become luxuries. Thanks for opening my eyes.
Baklava states he is not vile and then proceeds to prove how vile he is by disparaging Hindus. The sad thing Baklava is that you don't realise how VILE you are.
If you are a law abiding citizen of the United Kingdom Backlava, do you accept like the vast majority of Brits that Elizabeth II is your Monarch.......... she is after all a Christian and one of the infidel kuffar. Your friends in Pakistan, on a daily basis carry out outrages against her co-religionists.
Would you agree Bakalava that the Quran, Sunnah, and Sirahs of Ishaq, Tabari and kathir, quite clealy show that Muhammad. killed or mutilated all who spoke out against him and with the help of his booty and sex motivated followers he lied, plotted, tortured, killed, robbed, ransomed and raped his way to total political and religious power. Or are you so blind and vile that you still believe him to have been al-insan al-kamil and uswa hasana ?
The appalling "Baklava" wrote:
Hello Graven,
I am not "vile" or anything like that....I am a British citizen of Pakistani descent...and a law abiding one at that too.
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Oh, I don't know-someone who sneers at the idea of forced conversion and rape, and who denigrates Christians and Hindus and any other non-Muslims seems pretty vile to me.
In what way other than that piece of paper are you a "British citizen"? from all your previous comments, you despise everything about civilized Britain.
As for being "a law abiding one at that"—well, how special for you. Do you intend to go on being law abiding, or will that change if enough of your savage coreligionists come to the fore?
More:
It is true that many of muslims thought processes are for the support of Islam...but I see nothing wrong with that.
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The "support of Islam" includes murdering and oppressing your fellow Britons, as well as forcing conversion of their daughters as in this story. Good to know you "see nothing wrong with that".
I notice you did not address the overwhelming evidence of forced conversion in Islam—but then, I did not expect you to.
More:
You talk about Jihad and the violent verses in the Quaran...true....but there are so many hate verses in the old testament too...it has dozens of violent and barbaric verses in it. The difference here is that the christian thought that he knew better than God and took them out....that does not mean that God didn't mean them does it?....it just means that the christian has outgrown god...has lost his respect for God....you people are now no use to God...we are the chosen ones now, you had your chance and you blew it.
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I do not plan on debating theology with you. But it is clear that you consider violence to be *the true nature of God*—or of "Allah", at least. And now you want to bring this savage view to civilized Britain and the rest of the West.
More:
As to hindu hit squads....it's a nay to that.. Hindus have been living within the muslims community for hundreds of years now...and they know their place....the clever ones work with us, the rest know their place...a hindu hit squad....hahahaha it's an oxymoron for those morons.
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It actually took me a moment to realize what you were referring to, since *nobody* here had mentioned "Hindu hit squads". I presume you were referring to Xavier's suggestion that Christians in Pakistan and other benighted reaches of Dar-al-Islam protect their loved ones against Muslim depredations, by force of arms if necessary.
My only issue with Xavier's suggestion was that this would only bring reprisals from vicious Muslims—*not* that defending one's loved ones is wrong.
To characterize a family rescuing a kidnapped and raped daughter as a "hit squad" is grotesque.
Incidentally, I believe it is significant that you characterize a suggestion for Christian self-defense not only as a "hit squad" but as a "Hindu hit squad".
And why is that? Because as much as Muslims despise Christians, their dripping disdain for Hindus is even more pronounced.
More:
I am all for telling the truth...no niceties for me...hindus have their place and their uses....nothing personal.
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As I noted—yet more disparaging of Hindus from the vile "Baklava". The view that such minorities have "their place and their uses" is the very essence of dhimmitude-where Muslims oppress Infidels.
How does this in any way gibe with your assertion that you are a "law abiding" British citizen, when everything you espouse goes against the civilized British concept of equality before the law?
Oh, I know that only too well, you are so right. Thanks!
this is atrocious, but millions of hindu girls, and traffiked and sold by hindu men in India into brothels and no one says a word.
If you want to complain about pakistani sex slavery, you also have to target indian sex slavery as well (both indian hindus and muslims are involved), and in the hindu religion as well, some castes sanction temple prostitution as their career.
if you guys been to Russia, malaysia, india, pakistan, morroco, china, taiwan, korea, most of the girls getting sold as sex slaves are by their own people.
malaysian chinese are involved in traffiking chinese girls form southern china into malaysia to force into prostitution, indian men are exporting indian girls to the UAE and brothels in India, korean gangsters export korean girls, Russian Mafia sends their own Russian women to hellholes in Dubai, China, thailand, and other places, moroccan men force their own sisters to whore to gulf arab men.
Ladies and gentlemen, it appears that 'Cin' is 'Horse' under a new moniker, engaging in typical Mohammedan whataboutery and throwing showers of sand.
oh harry potter follower
indian men selling adolescent indian girls as prostitutes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ky8w3vP6XY
Malaysian Chinese businessesmen forcing girls from southern china into prostitution:
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/EG16Ae02.html
"The businessman, who did not want to reveal his name, said Malaysian-Chinese businessmen used to keep mistresses in Singapore, Thailand and Hong Kong. But the trend now is to buy "noon brides" from middlemen in China, Hong Kong and here, fly them over and house them in condominiums. "
"It is cheaper and a lot more convenient," he said. "Noon brides are extremely popular. Just go to any upscale restaurant in the city and you can see an old man cloistered with a young, slim girl from China."
Whats new about traffiking women? nothing.
The fact is that Islam - the sharia of Islam, and the example of the thrice-accursed Mohammed, ha-Meshugga - sees nothing wrong with 'temporary marriages', and the kidnapping and enslavement and sexual use of enslaved women, so long as those women are non-Muslims. Sharia says a Muslim can seize and rape the wife of a non-Muslim man - and even though she's another man's wife, it is not adultery because (gee whiz) sharia sez that the moment the Muslim grabs her, her nasty kafir marriage vows are annulled. Pure evil.
Other religions do not prescribe or sanctify that sort of behaviour. Certainly Christianity and Judaism do not. And yes it is *done* in countries like India, and Thailand: but it is, strictly speaking, *illegal*. It is *criminal*. When people who are not Muslims, in non-Muslim countries, do these things, they are *committing sin* and *breaking the law*, even if corrupted police and administrations fail to pursue and punish them.
Under sharia, however, this evil behaviour, of kidnapping and enslaving women, is not seen as wrong, in the first place.
That is the difference.
Dumbledore's Army wrote:
Ladies and gentlemen, it appears that 'Cin' is 'Horse' under a new moniker, engaging in typical Mohammedan whataboutery and throwing showers of sand.
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Right you are, DDA—"Cin" is at least the fourth incarnation of "Horse"...it's like "whack-a-mole"...
I agree. The IP addresses have changed (this troll seems to operate from home and somewhere else -- slacking off on the job?), but the style and the subject matter are the same.
One way or the other the prolific, long-winded, sub-literate, harassing comments give plenty of reasons to ban him.