An adviser to a putative partner for peace with Israel frames his discussion in terms of the most destructive weapons known to humanity. Sure, that inspires confidence. He praises the attempts to invade Israel on the so-called "Nakba Day," but what this is ultimately about is the "right of return," which Sabri Saidam details some of his hopes for below.
Few people -- not even Palestinians -- seem to have thought through what the "right of return" would look like if it were realized. A 2004 BBC report notes there could be as many as 4.4 million claimants to a "Palestinian right of return." There are about 7.5 million people in Israel now. And once one opens the floodgates, it will be harder and harder to say no because the "right" to enter Israel will have been validated.
Even a lesser number would amount to a legalized invasion, and could cause a humanitarian crisis of internally displaced persons. Where would they all go? Israel would be expected to foot the bill of housing and feeding them. For all practical purposes, a massive influx of those claiming the "right of return" would lead to new refugee camps inside Israel as the country scrambled to provide short-term housing, with the potential for outbreaks of violence and disease.
Then there is the question of claims on the land. There are more people claiming the right of return than ever left after Arab nations lost various attempts to annihilate Israel. There is only so much land, and carving up the place would inevitably become violent over conflicting claims. With help from neighboring Muslim countries, they could attempt to massacre or expel all of the Jews to free up more lebensraum, but that would just leave the Palestinians to fight among themselves.
The issue of Sharia would also provide a source of perpetual instability, through demands to impose it in a demographically post-Jewish Israel, and infighting among Muslims about how much Sharia ought to be enforced and who is pious enough to rule, as has already happened between Hamas and Fatah.
Jihad will lead to poverty and violent infighting, and the aftermath may well find Palestinians once again in refugee camps outside of what was Israel as we once knew it. It could be quite the case of "be careful what you wish for." But Sabri Saidam isn't thinking that far ahead. He just wants to go "nuclear."
"Palestinian Authority Presidential Advisor: The Refugees Are the New 'Palestinian Nuclear Weapon'," from MEMRI, June 2:
"The glorious day has arrived, [the day] that some feared and others ignored, while the rest prepared themselves at the last minute. The Palestinians have begun moving their new, quality 'nuclear weapon' across the borders – while the massive arsenal of nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons, cluster and phosphorous [bombs], and the entire spectrum of WMDs rests in Israel's storage facilities, nuclear reactors, and laboratories. [The arsenal was] paralyzed by the footfall of a Palestinian youth who advanced via the border, risking his life, to reach the birthplace of his parents, grandparents, and noble Jaffa family – while his comrades encountered [live] fire at the border.
"This new Palestinian 'nuclear weapon' is based on a large nucleus of loyalty to the motherland – a nucleus of courage and of yearning, and of distress due to the occupation. Together with this is a nucleus of courage, that disregards the minefields, the barbed-wire fences, the [tear] gas grenades, the [various] types of munitions, and the [various] types of obstinacy reflected in every speech delivered so generously before humanity by the occupation government.
"The new Palestinian 'nuclear weapon' demolishes the theory [that the Palestinian refugees will] forget [their yearning for the homeland], on which the Hebrew state has relied. It destroys the possibility of intimidating the millions of Palestinian refugees. It shatters the aspirations of the generals of our time, who aim to eliminate the affiliation of the Palestinian grandchild [with the homeland] – the grandchild who is charged with yearning for the land of his forefathers, [so much so] that he is willing to gamble with his life in an attempt to attain his plundered right – his right to a state, to freedom, and to independence.
"The internal battles within the occupation army will surely be endless, after its haggard appearance was revealed on that day. Perhaps those battles will be fought in total secrecy, with a few officers removed from their posts. Perhaps [the Israeli army] will reassess its plans in order to deal with this possible new test [that has become apparent] since the Nakba Day [dress rehearsal].
"[This] article of mine contains a great [call] to those in the Occupation state [Israel] who want to see and to hear that this impulse of self-sacrifice among the new generation of Nakba grandchildren has great significance – namely, that this generation is not afraid to storm [the borders] and die, and therefore will not relinquish its right, no matter how long the fence, how extensive the settlements, or how great the plunder of the land. Thus, it will never tire, and will never agree to anything but liberation and the disappearance of the occupation.
Remember, this guy works for the "moderates."
If North Koreans decided to stream into China by the thousands, the Chinese would spray them with bullets or drop a few bombs on them... To which the UN would react three months later by issuing a statement saying that "uh, that wasn't nice, but it's no big deal."
If Israel, on the other hand, did that, anatolian-arab Ahmet Davutoglu (the epitome of arrogance, hubris and a monkey reckoning himself to be a giant-headed, 21st-Century Gamal Nasser) and his boss Recep ErDOGan would be at the UN barking like hydrophobic dogs that it was a crime against humanity, while the UN's de facto keffiyeh- and iqal-wearing bosses would be foaming at the mouth as if someone had put a mahound cartoon before their pig snouts, all trying to get a EU-UN-Arab-League-Arab-Spring coalition of the black-cube worshipping to wipe Israel off the map.
What really needs to happen is that the millions of Muslims already not only within Israel's borders, but also Judea, Samaria & Gaza, need to be expelled. Send them to Benghazi and let them figure out how to live there.
I doubt any Israeli government, no matter how leftist, would be stupid enough to agree to this 'right of return'.
As for what would happen if this did materialize, their first order of business would be Judenrein, and then anything else. If 'Palestine' became too crowded, they'd start wanting to move to Europe, and the EU, on 'humanitarian' grounds, would read the riot act to any country that refused.
ISRAEL - please take these mozzies OUT! And protect your six!
Israel has the legitimate right to defend itself.
I predicted some time ago (during the Nabka) that this was a dress rehearsal for a "Camp of the Saints' style invasion.
Israel should do whatever it takes to defend its borders and if that means slaughtering these Muslim scum then that is what it takes.
If they allow these scum to walk into Israel then it is goodbye Israel.
We are now seeing the same tactics being used on Europe with Lampedusa being just the start for a walk-in or sail in invasion of Europe.
Our elites are helpless in the face of this and are bleating on about human rights and such muck instead of reinforcing the borders, though France and a few others are now becoming more aware of this threat.
Once again, I predicted this. But you don't have to be a genius to see the obvious; all they have to do is just walk into Europe and take it over.
Our only hope is the rise of nationalism in virtually every country in Europe.
Now I will make another prediction. Within 2 years citizens militia will be forming all over Europe. Sooner if the Muslims carry out attacks, which is a certainty.
I will be joining them.
One thing I noted with Netanyahu was his mentioning of the dirty deeds of the PA, like naming plazas after terrorists. He referred to this and that make me very happy because it shows that the Israeli government is understanding the task ahead. Actually, I think the task, eliminating the danger of the PA, is really quite easy. Their evil intentions, their rank hatred of Jews, is so easy to see that all it takes it pointing it out. There is no response. Not that merely pointing these things out will magically change everything but it will take away a lot of room the other side has. If he sits down with European leaders and says, look at what they are doing, how are they a partner in peace, it will make it harder for the Europeans to disagree (and of course they will). If Israel keeps up this more aggressive campaign, it will bear fruit.
Sadly, Israel has to live with the rank idiocy of a previous government, the one that signed Oslo. Israel should abrogate it and evict the PA and PLO from the West Bank.
Two thoughts:
1. Israeli should establish a "martyrdom zone" around the fences wherein those who enter will be sent to the Islamic paradise - the greatest thing that can ever happen to a Muslim. This would be a true "win-win" - the Muslims would get their highest possible reward and the Israelis would remain secure.
2. We see how the "right of return" does not die out with the original generation, but extends down ad infinitum to future generations. With that principle firmly established, the Jews simply need to assert THEIR "Right of Return" to Yathrib - Medina in present-day Saudi Arabia. The Palestinians could no longer invoke their "right" without at the same time triggering the Jews' analogous "right."
imnokuffar,
"Israel should do whatever it takes to defend its borders and if that means slaughtering these Muslim scum then that is what it takes."
I agree with on the actions. Israel, the US, and the European countries must protect their borders. Invasions can be armed or unarmed, but must be met with whatever force it takes to repel the invaders.
Having said that, I would much prefer to harden the borders, and continue to live with the Muslim citizens who are already here in the US. Israel has been very successful at creating a liberal state, respectful of all the religions and people living within its borders. Can we do less?
Truthfully, I think Europe has a much bigger problem at this point than the US, as the number of recent Muslim immigrants is much higher. My reading of the situation is that the greatest danger of internal terror attacks comes from first or second generation immigrants or recent converts to Islam. But, in the US, the Muslims here are far more integrated into the US culture than the recent Muslims to the European countries.
This type invasion is being carried out on America's southern border right now...It is not a right to return, it is a right to take over...Israel will take strong action to prevent this because the consequences of doing nothing is slaughter...
BTW - does Germany have a "Right of Return" to its 1939 borders? So Danzig (Gdansk), Prussia, Konigsberg would all revert to Germany???
Just wondering....
so here we are. june 5th, 44 years after the glorious six day war...
what has happened since then? and even earlier than that, since 1948?....
in those days, israel was a mouse that thought it was a LION.... today, israel is a strong lion that sadly thinks it is a MOUSE.....
and how did this happen?
a pathetic succession of leftist governments and ideologies of appeasement instead of standing true to the moral fiber of the jewish nation!
solution? election of jewish leadership, headed by feiglin and sackett. which will defeat israel's enemies not flee from them and allow ZERO TOLERANCE for arabs in israel, an immediate annexation of the golan heights, judea and samaria, taking over the temple mount and a strong defiant in your face reply to the torrent of condemnations to follow as sure as night follows day...
and ESPECIALLY a 'go fly a kite' response to the muslime illegally occupying the white house
"Sadly, Israel has to live with the rank idiocy of a previous government, the one that signed Oslo. Israel should abrogate it and evict the PA and PLO from the West Bank."
I must respectfully disagree with you at this point in time.
A prime dilemma of a liberal, civilized government is how to deal with enemies which do not share its principles, but use its principles against it. Bridget Gabriel talks about how the Christians of Lebanon destroyed themselves because they agreed to admit the Palestinians who had been kicked out of Jordan.
But, a civilized society must continue to be civilized, to the extent possible.
Israel should continue to honor its treaties until the PA, or Egypt, take concrete steps which violate the treaty. The Palestinians can rant all they like, but if they take no actions against Israel, and sponsor no terror, they should continue to be left in peace.
If the West Bank begins to sponsor terror attacks, or even unarmed invasions, or if Egypt allows Hamas access to arms to fire into Israel, then all bets are off.
"...But, in the US, the Muslims here are far more integrated into the US culture than the recent Muslims to the European countries. "
ronald it may be too early in the morning...may i recommend a visit to starbucks for their double espresso?
:)
whoa ronald...please!!!
oslo was/is an incredible piece of s**t rammed down israel's throat under the auspices of the libtard 'i did not inhale. i never had sex with that woman' clinton...
question for you ronald...if you drive on a certain set course and realize that the road actually leads you to a 400' ravine... you would still maintain the course???
or would you say to hel with this, it is time for a DIFFERENT DIRECTION?
btw, 'civilized society' need not be **suicidal society**
infidel pride, seymour paine and islam_macht frei exposed their points very well. please refer back to their comments.
you write:
"Israel should continue to honor its treaties until the PA, or Egypt, take concrete steps which violate the treaty. The Palestinians can rant all they like, but if they take no actions against Israel, and sponsor no terror, they should continue to be left in peace.
If the West Bank begins to sponsor terror attacks, or even unarmed invasions, or if Egypt allows Hamas access to arms to fire into Israel, then all bets are off. "
mistake #1, ronald, THERE IS NO SUCH ENTITY AS PALESTINIANS
never was never will be. it is an unfortunate propaganda stroke of evil genius that stuck....
mistake #2, you DO NOT WAIT for an attack ronald. were israel to actually wait for a coordinated invasion and attack of the egyptian and syrian armies in '67 instead of striking early and HARD....the outcome may have been quite different
mistake #3, "..but if they sponsor no terror..they should continue to be left in peace......
i don't even know where to begin...
does the bomb factory aka 'jennin refugee camp' ring a bell?
do you recall that the 'pa' security police (what a sad farce...) open fire and killed unarmed jewish men praying at rachel's tomb.....(must have been a sudden jihad syndrome)
on the bright side...you did realize that 'all bets are off'
Treaties, like contracts, have to be in the best interests of both parties to be valid. If your treaty is harming you, there is no reason to honor it. Oslo is very injurious to Israel. It has permitted a terrorist group to pretend it's a government and even act at times like a government.
Luckily, the Palis will probably try to get some sort of statehood ruling at the UN. I hope they do because that would violate Oslo and permit Israel to annul it and evict the PA. They can cart them over to Jordan.
Of course they should also shut off the water and power to Gaza as that would end the problem within a week or so. Hopefully, that will be coming soon, as well.
I believe one of the sections of the Oslo Accords was the principle of mutual recognition. If you look at PA publications and PA-TV, you will see that it claims all of Israel for itself. This alone violates Oslo and should be a basis for cancelling it. Also, the PLO charter still calls for Israel's destruction, so there's grounds there as well.
"question for you ronald...if you drive on a certain set course and realize that the road actually leads you to a 400' ravine... you would still maintain the course???
or would you say to hel with this, it is time for a DIFFERENT DIRECTION?"
Well, phoenix,
All I can say is that Israel itself has chosen the course that I am advocating. Remember: Israel is on the front line of Western civilization, and has done very well. With all due respect, we can sit here on the sidelines and quarterback, but Israel has to live and die with its own actions.
Remember how Communism was a threat to the US? The US tolerated a certain Communist presence within itself, and acted in a civilized manner. The result was that Communism collapsed from within. It was the Communist party members themselves in Russia, East Germany, Romania and the like that overthrew the former governments.
The greatest asset of a civilized society is to continue to act as civilized as possible. However, that does not include being a party to its own destruction.
The biggest problem for Israel, in my opinion, is not its own will to defend itself, but the uncertainty of its ally, the United States, to watch its back against the Europeans, the EU, and the UN once Israel finally has to act decisively.
dear seymour,
you sir,DO understand the situation and see the picture crystal clear, in all its uggliness and absurdity.
let us call a spade a spade and end this ridiculous farce!
let the trek of buses loaded with arabs, crossing the jordan river, to their 'land', begin!
Klavan's One-State Solution
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIEeiDjdUuU
This is an example of Israeli restraint/resolve:
"
Israeli forces open fire at protesters on Golan border"
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43284111/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/
"Unfortunately, extremist forces around us are trying today to breach our borders and threaten our communities and our citizens. We will not let them do that," Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu told his Cabinet.
"I have instructed our security forces to act with resolve, with maximum restraint but with resolve in order to safeguard our sovereignty, our borders, our communities and our citizens."
All I can say is that Israel itself has chosen the course that I am advocating. Remember: Israel is on the front line of Western civilization, and has done very well. With all due respect, we can sit here on the sidelines and quarterback, but Israel has to live and die with its own actions.
Israel's own actions, and those of 'Palestinian' Arabs, were already spelled out on 13 September, 1993. The Oslo Accords was about renouncing violence and terrorism and of Israel negotiating directly with the 'Palestinian' (Syrian, Jordanian, Egyptian) Arabs to have their own state, while recognizing that Israel's legal state entity right to exist. That was what the then PLO head, Yasser Arafat, signed with Yitzak Rabin. There was nothing in the agreement for the Palestinian Arabs to storm the Israeli border with massive forced entry attempts.
That storming of the border is a Muslim-Arab Jihad 'crusade' against the Jews, in direct contradiction of Oslo Agreement's to have the 'Palestinian' government adhere to democratic self-government principles. Obviously, to the Arab mind, the only 'principles' acceptable is the invasion and annihilation of Israel, rolling back to 1967 borders (areas A, B 'Palestinian' areas, and C, Israeli) administered respectively. The 'Palestinian' right of return, in short, is to ultimately impose Islamic Sharia on Israeli Jews. That is what their "right of return" means to them. Oslo Accords is therefore abrogated by the Arab invasions. Its naively hopeful idealism of 'Peace' in the Middle East was torn to shreds by the Arabs' invasion attempts, first from Lebanon, now Syria. Oslo is dead.
Start over. This is how it is in Islamic Jihad, where no agreement is worth its paper.
dear ronald,
if we were not discussing **muslimes** (no typo there), but 'communism', aztec human sacrifices or any other form of perverse ideology....i would agree with you: let it collapse on its own...
but ronald, we are talking **muslimes** here..the scum of the earth, personified by a slimy liar, a heinous murderer who received a 'nobel peace prize' (spit!)..
even after his aids-caused death, this murderous organization now led by holocaust denier abbas, carries on the same tradition of lying in your face by saying one thing in english while calling for more martyrs in arabic...
these criminals are now helped beyond their wildest dreams by the muslime haj hussein bin bamma, with his calls to destroy israel (yes i know he did not say that verbatim but to dismember israel by making a *contiguous* f**kestinian state, and israel to be squeezed ....amounts to just that!)
so the point obviously is that by definition a *muslime* cannot be trusted as he will be lying like he is breathing...
and in as far as not having u.s. as an ally...once again, let us call a spade a spade...u.s. is no real ally of israel and never was.
of course, this becomes painfully obvious now with the bastard in the white house, but make no mistake:
* dubbya'd road map was no act of love...
* bush 1 imposing practicall on israel to sit still and not respond to scud attacks...was no act of love
* jimmuh ca'htuh....no need to comment there...
* henri kissinger forcing israel to allow a surrounded egyptian army to 'walk away' (!!!!!) to save *muslime honor*
i have no illusions as far as the administration of u.s. goes....it is no friend of israel
the american people on the other hand is something else.
I am in full agreement with Israel's actions to defend its borders from invaders.
"i have no illusions as far as the administration of u.s. goes....it is no friend of israel
the american people on the other hand is something else."
Well, phoenix,
Our task is clear. Mobilize the US to allow Israel to take its own actions to defend itself, and to veto UN Security Council resolutions harmful to Israel.
Recall that the US was the first nation to extend recognition to Israel in 1948, when it declared its independence. The US has vetoed numerous one-sided Security Council resolutions against Israel. The US under Obama has declined to participate in the UN Conference on Racism, which equated Zionism with racism. Although Henry Kissinger did pressure the Israelis into an almost disastrous restraint prior to the Yom Kippur War, the US under Nixon flew emergency arms and ammunition to Israel, permitting Israel to win the war.
Pope Meets Abbas, Keeps Quiet on Cleansing of Christians
by Gil Ronen
Pope Benedict XVI met the leader of the so Palestinian Authority, Mahmoud Abbas, at the Vatican Friday and said there was an "urgent need" for a lasting solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict that included a PA state.
A statement issued by the Vatican after the talks did not mention the extremely violent way in which the PA has caused most of its Christian Arab population to flee.
Reports have offered extensive documentation that the PA encouraged a "sharp demographic shift" in Bethlehem, where the Christian population went from a 60 percent majority in 1990 to a 40 percent minority in 2000, to about 15 percent of the city's total population in 2008.....The pope has spoken out on numerous occasions about the persecution of Christians in Muslim lands. Last year, he convened a meeting of bishops at the Vatican to discuss the ongoing crisis. Recently, he voiced his concern at the killing of Christian Copts in Egypt.
In the latest meeting with Abbas, "Particular stress was laid on the urgent need to find a just and lasting solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict," the Vatican stated. Such a solution would have to respect the rights of all parties including "the attainment of the Palestinian people's legitimate aspirations for an independent state," it added.
This is the fourth time the two have met since Benedict became pope.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/144759
Don't the people get the government they / we deserve? Didn't the American people elect B. Hussein Obama? Don't the American people, in stunningly large numbers, genuinely like and support this dangerous man?
Don't the people get the government they / we deserve? Didn't the American people elect B. Hussein Obama? Don't the American people, in stunningly large numbers, genuinely like and support this dangerous man? If the economy were prospering, as it did during the first years of the Third Reich, is there any doubt the American people would re-elect this dangerous man? And might they elect him at any rate?
Are you talking about the leftist demonstration in Tel Aviv yesterday? If this minority becomes a majority in Israel, I can foresee a mass-slaughter of Jews. I don't worry so much about the left. It's the so-called moderates and independents I worry about. I know otherwise intelligent people who voted for Obama. Some still support him. There are many Americans - not the ideological left - who genuinely like this disciple of Reverend Wright. When a nation can elect and support a racist / anti-Semite because he he is a good orator, the nation is in trouble, at least in the long-run. I see a degenerating America with a few intelligent people; a mighty-tiny few.
When the attempts to breach the border are made, Israel will have no choice but to open fire...it's coming...
yes wj, i am talking about this demonstration ...
i am totally baffled by this incredible disconnect with reality...as shown by increaasing numbers of people that keep on drinking the kool-aide...
i believe that the hope for israel's survival is in 'the jewish leadership' of moshe feiglin...(and i am a VERY SECULAR jew!)
as far as u.s. is concerned... the time is ticking and there is no one to oppose the fraud @ the white house...
i was hoping to see allen west run...but no...
i was glad to see herman cain throw the hat in the ring...there's a media blackout...
the only one that is being talked about is the rino romney which is the same thing as hussein, except he has a birth certificate...
it looks kind of gloomy...
Romney will have problems with social conservatives and Christian conservatives because he flip-flopped on abortion. As governor he was pro-abortion rights like Obama and then he became pro-life when he ran for the 2008 nomination. People respect a guy like Giuliani - who is a consistent social liberal - more than an opportunist like Romney. Then, like you say, there is Romneycare which some believe was a model for Obamacare. I hope Romney is not the nominee. I've gone on record, on the radio, against him. I thought I would never say I will vote for the "lessor of the evils." Were I living in Germany in the early nineteen thirties, I would have voted for the Social Democrats against the Nazi party, though I am far from a socialist. If Romney is the nominee, like McCain, I will of necessity have to vote for him. Obama is that dangerous. If Obama had the power, I am convinced he would confiscate people's wealth and property so that he could re-distribute it to his largest base of political support, the "moocher" class.
" If Obama had the power, I am convinced he would confiscate people's wealth and property so that he could re-distribute it to his largest base of political support, the "moocher" class."
Well, with all due respect, this website is kind of focused on one small issue: is Western civilization in danger from steady Muslim encroachment?
If Obama developed a rational immigration policy: path to citizenship for illegal residents who have not had a criminal record, and strict control of future immigration, especially those beholden to un-American systems, such as most Muslims. I would consider voting for him. It depends on his opponent, of course.
I still think George Bush damaged the US far more, so far, than Obama has. Bush hasn't yet overtly kowtowed to the King of Saudi Arabia, who seems to be funding his library, but Bush did approve special jets right after 9-11 to whisk away special Saudis after a cursory FBI questioning.
Hey, Question! Don't the other countries where these Palistinian people were born give them citizenship? I mean I know of some Palistinians who are Canadian or American. Are any of them now Syrians, or Iranians,etc?
ohhh kkkayy...
so you WOULD consider voting for hussein...
perhaps you should also inquire about a madrassah for your kids (if that were the case) or just a plain garden variety mosque, you would like to attend...
your comment to wildjew was out of left field.
if you fail to see how haj hussein is abetting muslime encroachment on western civilization...i am afraid there is not much that could be done for you, pal...you drank too much koolaid.
"Bush did approve special jets right after 9-11 to whisk away special Saudis after a cursory FBI questioning."
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
You've got no argument with me on George W. Bush. I am a forty year registered Republican. I am a conservative. I voted for Bush in 2000. I became one of Bush's biggest critics after he unveiled his "vision" for a Muslim-enemy state in Israel only days after the 9/11 Muslim-terror atrocities. Bush did this at the behest of his Saudi friends. I am familiar with this secret flight you mention; members of the bin Laden and Saudi Royal families (apparently authorized by the White House) were flown out at the time FAA prohibited all domestic flights after the sneak attacks. That having been said, as disappointed as I was (still am) with Bush, Bush does not hold a candle to this dangerous Muslim-born president who has deep sympathies for the world of Islam, along with an obvious antipathy for Israel's Jews.
gail,
to keep things really simple...
there is no such thing as a 'palestinian'.
never was.
never will be.
in fact, you have answered your own question:
these...'people' are syrian, egyptian, saudis etc (take your pick) who came to judea and samaria and elsewhere, seeking to better their miserable lives. (while the ottoman muslimes were in power, this land was a desolate desert. jews came. BOUGHT the land, drained the swamps cured it from the prevailing malaria and turned the whole area into an amazing garden.)
NOW they think they could just get it...ready made for them since they have hussein the bastard (literally!) protecting their back....
5 such muslimes have been helped today by the idf to reach paradise a little earlier than planned...i am sure there would be more to come
"your comment to wildjew was out of left field.
if you fail to see how haj hussein is abetting muslime encroachment on western civilization...i am afraid there is not much that could be done for you, pal...you drank too much koolaid."
Well, phoenix,
If you convince me that a Republican candidate will be better, I'll certainly listen.
Probably, the most implacable, unpredictable enemy of the US right now is the government of Iran. They have been dealing with North Korea and probably Pakistan. Who knows if they have nuclear weapons right now. They are in control of Hezbollah, which certainly has the sleeper cells in place to deliver small weapons anywhere they wish.
Iraq used to be a counterweight to Iran. Iran had to always look over its shoulder, because Iraq was a deadly enemy. After our (Bush) invasion of Iraq on very flimsy pretenses, Iraq is basically a satellite of Iran. So, Iran gets to pursue its crazy fantasies against Israel and the US without having to worry about another Muslim state.
If we get involved in another pointless ground war in the Middle East or that part of Asia, we're screwed. Obama threw us into Libya, just because he could, as far as I can make out. McCain threw his support behind Obama on taking sides in the Libyan Civil War. So, am I supposed to support McCain? The situation there could easily turn into another disaster for the United States, taking responsibility for yet another tribally-based Muslim country full of jihadist suicide bombers. If you give me a Republican who will pull us out before it turns completely sour, I'll go for him (or her).
My strong preference is to have a moderate Democrat win the primary against Obama, and take on a moderate Republican. Meaning, candidates who can follow a train of logic. But, in American politics, you have to choose the person you dislike the least.
dear ronald,
i am afraid i agree with you on all charges against past actions of the dubbya and daddy regimes...
it is a long shot, i'll admit but i would like to see herman cain take the republican nomination:
http://www.uncoveredpolitics.com/2011/06/herman-cain-leads-georgia-poll-gingrich-a-distant-third/
nonetheless, i think should *freddy krueger* run against obama, it would still be a prefered choice...
Roland, are you kidding? The PA has been proven to fund, facilitate and reward terrorism time and time again, which certainly violates any and all agreements. I think Israel made a mistake by continuing with the farce in spite of it. I can also tell you why it happened because I know how I was thinking all this time.
On one hand Israelis where desparate enough for peace to delude ourselves. Desparate not because we are weak and will be easily beaten in a war (that's how the Muslims interpret a peace wish - you only want peace when you're weak. When you're strong you charge and conquer and force Allah's law on the land. That's why they so often mistake concessions for peace as a sign of weakness and thus a sign that the time has arrived to strike). In Israel we grow up on the dream of peace with our neighbors. There are countless Israeli popular songs about peace, as many as there are about the horror and agony of war. If you grow up here you're exposed from early childhood to both songs of mourning the dead, of agonizing over the loss of lives of individuals that will never love again, will never see the sunrise again, the son who didn't come home, the lover that never returned, and so on, and songs about the hope for peace, and how it will soon come, and how this war will be the last one. So we grow up seeing peace as the ultimate bliss, the greatest thing anyone can wish for, the greatest desire. As one Israeli politician put it, peace became a religion for us.
People my age were born between two great wars, and I grew up heart broken with all those songs about the dead sons, brothers and fathers. And we also exprienced the signing of peace agreement with Egypt. I was a still child and I can't tell you how it felt. I think the then PM Menachem Begin (Likud) expressed it perfectly. When Sadat asked how he will be received if he came to Jerusalem, Begin replied: "Like the messiah". And it felt exactly like that. Not that we confused Sadat with the messiah, but seeing an Arab leader visiting Israel and signing peace felt like the messiah is coming any minute now (though I'm an athesit, but you get the idea). Actually this wasn't the first peace treaty Israel or the Zionist leadership made with an Arab leader, but this one has actually lasted for a few decades, thus convincing the Israelis that we can possibly trust the Arab word after all.
All the above paved the way for the Oslo mass delusion. Convincing ourselves that we can make peace with the likes of Yasser Arafat and the PLO, and that it'll pave the way for a comprehensive peace with the entire Arab world - the Utopian messianic scene of our Israeli peace religion, our end of times vision. That actually also relates to the Jewish religious messaiahnic vision of everlasting peace between all nations, but most religious people know it's not here yet, while secular Jews are affected by it subliminally. We deluded ourselves that it's within reach if only we'll make enough concessions to the PLO.
The premise of the Oslo Accords was based on the formula of land for peace, which has worked with Egypt as not only Sadat kept his word, but also his successor (Mubarak) after Sadat's assasination. Though Egypt continued with its anti-Israel and even genocidal anti-Jewish propaganda. According to the Oslo Accords the PalArabs were required to relinquish violence and terror, and we were to enter negotiations and transfer land to the newly created Palestinian Authority in phases.
So we started transfering land and we armed the PLO so they could supposedly fight the "extremists". Some years later they would use those guns to shoot Israelis. This is the Muslim MO everywhere - there are the extremist extremists and the moderate extremists (those who are soft spoken when they speak in English), and you arm the moderate extermists so they could fight the extremist extremists, and in the end they both fight you, icluding with your own weapons.
Soon afterwards we experienced what was probably the most intense terror campaign in Israel's history. Suicide bombings became our daily reality, hundreds of people were killed. They were carried out mostly by Hamas and Islamic Jihad, while the PLO was supposedly our peace partner. Then Israel made the first mistake. Remember, the premise for the entire process was that the PalArabs should relinquish terrorism. Today I think what we should have done is to stop the negotiations and declare the Oslo Accords null and void because they broke it in the most fundamental way. Instead our PM said we're going to "fight terror as if there is no peace process, and continue the peace process as if there is no terror".
At the time I supported it because it was supposedly just bad Hamas and Islamic Jihad, not our "peace partner" Arafat who was supposedly unable to control them (he put them in jail through one door and released them through the other). Today I think it was a crucial strategic mistake, since the formula is land for peace, and by more or less dropping our demand for peace from the PLO we turned the formula into land for nothing, which is what the world demands from us now. We should give up land and get attacks, then give up more land and get more attacks.
There were many other similar mistakes. According to agreements the PLO was supposed to stop the incitement against Israel and Jews and prepare their people for peace. Instead they intensified the incitement. Yet in this case too we didn't declare the accords null and void, thereby accepting that the new entity created in Judea and Samaria and Gaza will both continue to educate and incite their people to war and genocide, and continue to carry out terrorist attacks, while we continue to transfer land. Though it wasn't entirely Israel's fault since there's also great European and American pressure.
Even when Israel had concrete evidence of direct involvement of the PA, such as in the case of Karine A, Israel didn't declare the accords null and void.
There were also tapes of top officials in the PA, including Yasser Arafat himself, saying in Arabic they don't really mean peace, that it's part of the Phased Plan, or that the struggle will continue until the "liberation of entire Palestine" (that is the annihilation of Israel).
After years of terror, rocket attacks, incitement, declarations of intent in Arabic, and other concrete evidence even people like me (center-left) became disillusioned. But there are still too many leftists who insist to cling to the illusion. They want to believe it's our fault because if it's really only up to us making enough concessions then the Utopian vision of comprehensive peace with the Arab world is still within reach. The majority of Israelis are wide awake, but the leftists control most of the academia and much of the media.
To say that Israel should wait until the PA violates the treaty is absurd since they have violated it left and right, and in the most meaningful aspects - they violated the foundation for the entire agreement, which is land for peace - and Israel is yet to declare it null and void. We should have done so when they resumed terror. By not doing so we established the rule that we must give them more land in return for more war, that it doesn't matter if they attack us. A rule we reenforced by absorbing 8 years of rocket attacks on Israeli civilains before carrying out a military offensive to stop it. By this restraint we have established the rule that it's OK to target our cilvilians with rockets, as it is OK to target them with terror, that it's no big deal, and a military response to put an end to it is way over-reacting. No other country in the world will absorb 8 years of rocket attacks without a military response, unless it is unable to respond.
The other Arabs don't give them citizenships because they want to use them as peons against Israel. Except in Jordan for obvious reason. Or maybe it isn't obvious to you, so I'll explain - Jordan was founded on 78% of the Palestine mandate. But lately Jordan has revoked the citizenships of thousands of them.
Another well kept secret in the West is that there was a larger number of Jewish refugees who were expelled or fled the Arab states, most of which were resettled in Israel. About 60% of the Israeli Jewish population today have at least one parent who was a refugee from Arab or Muslim state.
dear d&g,
you have certainly posted a well thought thorough and eloquent comment. my compliments!
you write:"The majority of Israelis are wide awake, but the leftists control most of the academia and much of the media."
i hope that you are right when you say 'the majority of israelis are awake'. it is when seeing 5000+ strong leftists that i am shaking my head in disbelief and disgust and say to myself 'we're doomed'....
even though i am a very secular jew, i think the solution lies in the ten principles of feiglin/sackett jewish leadership.
http://jewishisrael.org/eng_contents/video/video012.html
i would like to add to your comment to gail that all these hundreds of thousands jewish refugees were absorbed by israel....
they were forced to leave with one suitcase only and **sign papers that they donated all their property to the state**
(!!!!!!!!!!)
we are talking of approximately 80 billion (yes BBBillion) dollars in todays value.
why are they not compensated by the u.n.? (that was a joke...)
Doom and gloom,
Thank you so much for your very informative and heartfelt reply.
Israel handles its own affairs, and does not ask for sacrifices from the US military. I have taken the position (for what its worth) that Israel has paid its dues, so Israel should make its own decisions without second-guessing from the US.
I can see where you got the impression I was prescribing a course of action for Israel, but I was defending a course of action which Israel is already taking. Israel appears to have more than enough material to abrogate the peace treaty, but I'm not so sure you know where to take it from there. Are you going to reoccupy the West Bank and Gaza? We both know that would involve tremendous casualties for Israel, not so much in the initial campaigns, but in the occupation. Welcome to Iraq.
Another alternative is to expel the West Bank inhabitants to Jordan, and the Gaza inhabitants to Egypt. That could be extremely dangerous. The US veto would be the only thing between Israel and an international boycott like the one that South Africa was subjected to. You would be completely dependent on US politics, not a position you want to be in.
I think what Israel did with Hamas was to assassinate the leaders who sponsored attacks on Israel, but left the administrative structure, rotten as it was, alone. Hamas now treads lightly with Israel, in spite of their rhetoric. It could be argued that Israel should have done the world, the Palestinians, and itself a big favor, and assassinated Arafat when he was in the West Bank, after getting evidence he was in fact conspiring to build up illegal arms.
Let me end by saying that Israel is an inspiration to the West. It defends itself against an implacable, violent, ruthless enemy, while showing itself to be committed to individual freedom and rights for all its citizens, without regard to religion or creed. Your weaknesses, tolerance and protection of individual rights, dissent and diversity, is your greatest strength.