Spencer vs. Alan Colmes on Norway smears

Sorry that was "live" not "Leave"

No. This is how the left works. They are ruthless and unscrupulous. Alan Colmes is a part of this effort. They keep hitting and pummeling the poor victim until he or she breaks down and surrenders. That's what Colmes was doing in his interview. Notice DNC Chairwoman, Debbie Wasserman Schultz last week on the House floor, accusing Allan West of wanting to hurt poor seniors who are on Medicaid and Medicare by helping his millionaire friends.

Schultz: "The gen­tle­man from Florida, who rep­re­sents thou­sands of Medicare ben­e­fi­cia­ries, as do I, is sup­port­ive of this plan that would increase costs for Medicare ben­e­fi­cia­ries, unbe­liev­able from a Mem­ber from South Florida,”...the leg­is­la­tion “slashes Med­ic­aid and crit­i­cal invest­ments essen­tial to win­ning the future in favor of pro­tect­ing tax breaks for Big Oil, mil­lion­aires, and com­pa­nies who ship Amer­i­can jobs overseas.”

It looked like Schultz had her intended affect. West seems to be abandoning tea party activists who oppose cutting a deal on raising the debt ceiling.

Do you think Breivik is a Christian?

"And if he wanted to ask questions about anything that Pam Geller has said, why doesn't he invite her on his program?"

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Because she might tell Colmes he is a self-loathing Jew or some other uncomfortable truth; a thing Spencer, a non-Jew, is unlikely do do. Colmes knows Geller has his measure.

Absolutely not, this man does not represent Christianity in the slightest according to my opinion. I'm talking about the warped image he had of himself in his own head.

And from the manifest, he clearly wanted Europe to become a conservative mono-cultural Christian society. He even blabbers on that the only way for Muslims to escape deportation(in his utopian world) is to convert to Christianity and adopt Christianized names.

Do i think this is a mockery of Christian values? Yes. But that is what his goals were, which he discuss in detail.

Kaddafi_Delenda_Est wrote: "The peanut gallery critics here are choking on gnats, while swallowing camels."

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peanut gallery
n.
1. The hindmost or uppermost section of seating in a theater balcony, where the seats are cheapest.
2. A group of people whose opinions are considered unimportant

You may think my opinions are unimportant. That's fine. I understand where Mr. Spencer is coming from. In this regard he is consistent. In his earlier book, "Islam Unveiled: Disturbing Questions About the World's Fastest-Growing Faith," he wrote:

"I must emphasize here at the outset that my intention is in no way to focus hate upon Muslims. At a personal level, I have known quite a few Muslims whose personal charity puts me to shame. Any reasonable person understands that a criticism of Islam is not an attack on all those who adhere to that faith. If the seeds of terrorism are found to lie at the heart of Islam, that does not make every Muslim a terrorist, nor does it excuse any injustice towards Muslims." (page 5)

Unlike Mr. Spencer I have not known quite a few (nor any) Muslims at a personal level. Anecdotally, I hear from friends and business people, prominent Muslims here in my community do not like Jews nor Israel much and that is putting it mildly. I am told my Muslim neighbors believe in a Jewish world conspiracy, that is pervasive throughout the Middle East. If, like Spencer, I was a nationally known personality or a best-selling author, I might say and write similar things to Spencer, but I am neither so I have nothing to lose by saying what I think about Muslims at this juncture. If Colmes were to ask me, "Do you have anything good to say about Islam? Excuse me, is there anything positive about Islam you can say?" I might answer, "I'm not sure." I am not sure "most" Muslims are moral and upright people. No doubt Colmes would use it to further demonize me as a hater, which I am not.

You think my answer is choking on gnats, while swallowing camels. Fine.

wildjew, it does not matter if Breivik is a Christian. The fundamental point is what does Christianity stands for, especially compared to the real predatory evil Islam.

Judeo-Christianity is founded on our shared God's SALVATION for all humanity from all kinds of evilness! And our shared Judeo-Christian God gave the Ten Commandments that founded civilized modern Western law and society - or we would still have Western civilization like the Roman barbarians who fed human beings to lions as blood-sport or crucifying rebels. Evil people have hijacked Judeo-Christianity like Breivik here or the evil priests but our God did not teach us to love evilness unlike in Islam!

Whereas, Islam, a most evil and savage Arabic cult, is created by the RACIST Arabic Pedophile predatory rapist, robber, slave-owner (including sexual slaves such as young Jewish captive girls), and mass murderer of the Jews, Mohammed, in his evil goal to construct pure Arabian race and kingdom, and legitimize his and his tribe’s evil and savage Arabic socio-cultural practises and god (i.e. the Devil), especially against Judeo-Christian shared God and civilized tradition and laws! Thus Islam's god is the Devil!

Bill O'Reilly agrees with you. Michael Savage last night, in the face of much opposition from his listening audience maintained Breivik is a "Christian terrorist," because Breivik claims to be a Christian. I remember when Mel Gibson was weathering some concern on the part of some Jews and Jewish leaders about his soon to be released film "The Passion," O'Reilly came to the defense of his friend and business partner. O'Reilly warned American Jews on his radio program, there would be a 'public backlash' against American Jews. It later turned out, in a fit of rage, Gibson weighed in on "the Jews" and how we are responsible for all the wars around the world. Do you think Mel Gibson is a Christian? What about George W. Bush who said he was a born again Christian? Was he an authentic Christian even though he told a reporter that he did not read or interpret the Bible literally? Even though Bush became the first US president to make the establishment of a Muslim-enemy state in Israel a "formal goal of US policy," though the prophets warned the nations not to divide His land, the land of Israel? Is Bush a Christian? Is Obama a Christian?

Katharina, you wrote: "Judeo-Christianity is founded on our shared God's SALVATION for all humanity from all kinds of evilness! And our shared Judeo-Christian God gave the Ten Commandments that founded civilized modern Western law and society - or we would still have Western civilization like the Roman barbarians who fed human beings to lions as blood-sport or crucifying rebels. Evil people have hijacked Judeo-Christianity like Breivik here or the evil priests but our God did not teach us to love evilness unlike in Islam!"

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I also believe in our shared Judeo-Christain values. That is why I have allied with conservative, pro-life, pro-Israel Christians on social and moral issues. No doubt Jesus would not have sanctioned this slaughter. You probably are aware Norway is one of the most anti-Semetic countries in Europe today. Norway's Labor government is anti-Israel, pro-Hamas. Norway's Labor Youth movement is politically activist, anti-Israel. Perhaps you saw or read these stories:

http://joshuapundit.blogspot.com/2011/07/norwegian-ambassador-oslo-attacks-and.html

I don't condone this slaughter but it occurred to me listening to Michael Savage call this killer a "Christian terrorist" who murdered his own people, I wonder if Savage would call Elijah a "Jewish terrorist," because he slaughtered a few hundred of his own people, the traitorous prophets of Baal.

1Ki 18:40 Then Elijah said to them, "Seize the prophets of Baal; do not let one of them escape." So they seized them; and Elijah brought them down to the brook Kishon, and slew them there.

What do you think of Elijah and what he did? Was Elijah a Jewish terrorist?

Minoria, you wrote: "WOW,I mean he is like Chomsky,living in denial and hatred of the facts....The Koran,Allah specifically,curses Jews in sura 5:64 "until the Day of resurrection.I bet Colmes KNOWS THAT,yet he doesn't want to admit it."

Maybe Colmes thinks if he throws out some love and respect, no harm will befall him. It didn't work for Germany's Jews but what the heck?

"Three elderly gents were golfing. The first says, "It's windy today."
"The second replies, "No, I think it's Thursday."
"The third says, "Me too. Let's go have a beer."

That's funny! No problemo.

Look, i plainly stated what i meant.

I dont consider him a Christian because his heinous crimes clearly contradicts scripture. That being said, Breivik himself obviously thinks otherwise. If he genuinly believed what he was doing was sanctioned by the Christian faith or if he was a nihilist who just exploited a cause to justify his thirst for death is something only he can answer.

I dont judge peoples faith or their standing with God, except on clear cut cases such as this. Thus i have no comment on your Bush&Obama arguement.

Fair enough. I've not read his manifesto. All I get are bits and pieces of disturbing evidence. I think he claims to be following in the steps of the Knights Templar and the Crusaders. If so, I guess the question needs to be asked were the Christian Crusaders in fact Christian?

wildjew, in Christianity, God of the Old Testament was a very angry God at evilness, especially predatory evilness; but the same God in the NT, in a new Covenant, lovingly gives evil human beings the chance to repent and be born again as a new human being spiritually, but He still hates evilness. Thus, the Prophet Elijah was not a 'terrorist' at all, but according to that time, was defending his righteous people against the continous predatory evil of all those Devil-worshippers, especially under the manipulation of Jezebel, the wife of King Ahab. As in 1Ki 18:4 For it was so, when Jezebel cut off the prophets of the LORD, that Obadia took an hundred prophets, and hid them by fifty in a cave, and fed them with bread and water.)

Katharina. Time magazine wrote in part: "Despite the Crusader lineage to which he aspires, however, Breivik has no intention of driving Jews from Europe, much less from the Holy Land. On the contrary, his manifesto hails Zionist Jews as a crucial ally in his battle between Christendom and Islam, proclaiming Israel as the front line citadel in that war. Breivik's Crusade would have Jews on board for an existential fight against Islam; the mirror image of the "Crusader-Jewish" alliance that Osama bin Laden vowed to drive out of what he defined as Muslim lands.

In his rambling history drawn from a range of Islamophobic sources, Breivik paints a picture of Christians and Jews (and also Hindus) as fellow sufferers under Muslim oppression through the ages. He soft-pedals around the uncomfortable fact of Crusaders killing Jews, insisting that in the limited instances where such events occurred, they were the work of renegade bad apples.

Nor does he evade Hitler's Holocaust; he simply says the Fuhrer was wrong about the Jews:

"Were the majority of the German and European Jews disloyal? Yes, at least the so called liberal Jews, similar to the liberal Jews today that opposes nationalism/Zionism and supports multiculturalism. Jews that support multiculturalism today are as much of athreat to Israel and Zionism (Israeli nationalism) as they are to us. So let us fight together with Israel, with our Zionist brothers against all anti-Zionists, against all culturalMarxists/multiculturalists. Conservative Jews were loyal to Europe and should have been rewarded. Instead, [Hitler] just targeted them all..."

You say, "the Prophet Elijah was not a 'terrorist' at all, but according to that time, was defending his righteous people against the continuous predatory evil of all those Devil-worshippers, especially under the manipulation of Jezebel, the wife of King Ahab." I would agree and by no means do I compare Mr. Breivik with a great prophet of God like Elijah, but Breivik also believes he is defending his righteous people against the continuous predatory evil of all those "devil-worshipping" Laborites who hate Israel and the Jews and who love Hamas jihadists and other jihadists. Isn't this an evil government in Norway? Is Beck entirely wrong when he compares the political activism of Norway's Labor Youth to the Hitler Youth? There are no perfect historical comparisons. What do you think would be the reaction if Obama formed an anti-Semitic Obama Youth movement like Norway's Youth Movement? Do you think Obama could get away with that?

I think where we disagree is on the nature of God. In the Jewish view, God does not change. He is the same "very angry God at evilness" today as He was then in ancient Israel. I might add that God also described Himself as a merciful and a compassionate (gracious) God to those who turn away from evil and seek forgiveness like David did. So I would argue Jesus ushered in nothing new. God is the same God he was in Moses' day to the God He is in our day. There is nothing "new" about the so-called New Covenant. God told the prophet that He would write his laws on our hearts but Moses said the same thing centuries earlier. Is it possible God incited Breivik to do what he did because of the evilness of his people?

Erik,

The basis for Breivik's views on Odinism is indeed in the 1500-page manifesto. Just get the file and search Odin, and you'll find what he has to say about it. Robert is on solid ground here, insofar as we can take what Breivik says in his manifesto as a genuine expression of his views. I wouldn't say, from what I've read, that Breivik was an Odinist in the full sense (likewise, he doesn't seem to be a Christian in the full or normal sense of the word, either). He was clearly someone who was inspired by Odinism, among other influences, and even named his guns after Norse gods.

Here's a relevant example:

"Q: What about atheists and Odinists, can they join the PCCTS, Knights Templar?
A: If you want to fight for the cross and die under the “cross of the martyrs” it’s required that you are a practising Christian, a Christian agnostic or a Christian atheist (cultural Christian). The cultural factors are more important than your personal relationship with God, Jesus or the holy spirit. Even Odinists can fight with us or by our side as brothers in
this fight as long as they accept the founding principles of PCCTS, Knights Templar and agree to fight under the cross of the martyrs. The essence of our struggle is to defeat the cultural Marxist/multiculturalist regimes of Western Europe before the we are completely demographically overwhelmed by Muslims.
I have studied Norse Mythology and have a lot of respect for the Odinist traditions. I consider myself to be a Christian, but Odinism is still and will always be an important part of my culture and identity."

p.s., Erik, I also meant to post this, from Breivik's manifesto:

"Q: Is it likely that Odinists will support the cause of the PCCTS, Knights Templar, considering the fact that many of them hate Christendom?
A: First of all, as a Norwegian, I am extremely proud of my Odinistic/Norse heritage as it is an essential aspect of my culture and my identity. However, things aren’t black and white. Supporting the Christian cultural heritage does not automatically mean you hate Odinism or vice versa. There are pragmatical considerations Odinists have to evaluate as well. Do they really believe the symbolism of Mjöllnir (Thors hammer) has the potential to unite the Nordic peoples against the forces we are facing?
Instead of abandoning the Church we will save it and re-create it as a nationalistic Church which will tolerate and allow (to a very large degree) native cultures/heritage/thought systems such as Odinism."

wildjew, definitely not! Our shared Judeo-Christian God would not have incited Breivik to kill innocent children as our Lord Jesus Christ loves children. That's completely emphasized in the new Covenant as in Matthew 19:14. Futher, in Christianity, God would love to see all mankind to be saved, thus He gave the chance to repent out of individual free will, in the New Covenant as in the New Testament. But as the Ten Commandments (for society's ethical civilization) as in Mark 10: 17,19, thus God still will not tolerate predatory evil and hence punishment towards such evil is still allowed, but according to justice and truths as based on society's ethical institutions, not based on personal and individual revenge.

Katharina, do you think Jesus loves Hamas children who strap bombs to kill Jews? If Jesus saw pictures of Norway's Labor Youth (at their summer camp) doing anti-Israel, pro-Hamas political activism, would Jesus feel love and compassion for these youths? USAF and RAF (British and American) bombers firebombed German cities, incinerating hundreds of thousands of German civilians near the end of the second world war. Women and children were targeted for annihilation. Were the Americans and the British wrong? There were times in the Bible when God commanded the Israelites to wipe out entire Canaanite cities. Why would God target innocent children? Do you think the kingdom of heaven belongs to all children, even to jihadists, racists and anti-Semites like Norway's Labor Youth?

Katharina, in Genesis 12:3, God told Abraham, I will bless those who bless you and the one who curses you, I will curse." Rabbi Daniel Gordis, in his book "Saving Israel" wrote about Israel when it became a state in 1948: "They (Israelis) knew that virtually the entire world had conspired either to annihilate the Jews or permit their annihilation, all the while pretending to be aghast. After all, FDR had closed the shores of the United States to Jewish refugees, as had Canada, and the United States failed to allocate even one bombing mission to the railroad tracks leading to Auschwitz. The British, for their own internal reasons, had also prevented the Jews who were fleeing Hitler form entering Palestine."

Today, led by Norway and other European states, anti-Semitism is pervasive. Hatred of Israel and Israel's Jews is very European today. It is fashionable in Europe to hate the Jews and to hate Israel. Do you think it is possible God is judging Europe (with all this activist) Muslim immigration) for cursing Abraham and his descendants? Do you think it possible Breivik is God's intstument to warn Europe? America is not too far behind behind Europe in cursing Israel. The United States is leading the international effort to establish a Muslim-terror state in Israel's heartland. In effect, the US is working for Israel's destruction at the hands of Islam! Do you think God will bless America for this?

I found your comment, wildjew, that "Jesus ushered in nothing new" astounding. For instance, in Mark 16:16, Jesus says "Whoever is baptized and believes will be saved but he who does not believe will be condemned." Assuming Jesus actually said this (and, of course, conventional Christians do), do you not see how this alters what is in the Old Testament extraordinarily, irrespective of whether Christians are correct about their assessment of Jesus being God personally present on earth for a third of a century? One could find numerous other examples in the New Testament where Jesus in fulfilling Old Testament prophecies, as Christians believe, is the gamechanger of gamechangers (no disrespect meant here to Christians by use of the term "gamechanger"). And on specific matters, such as divorce, didn't Jesus provide something new compared to what is in the OT?

I would make this observation too: The Norwegian mass murderer is no more a true Christian than a member of the KKK is a true patriotic American. Both represent bastardizations of the real things, if they represent them at all. By contrast, Islamic terrorists when perpetrating their heinous actions in the name of their religion are not betraying the Islamic faith but fulfilling it. Hence calling Brevik a Christian without further elaboration or calling a member of the KKK an American without further elaboration, and with the intention of conveying that they are your ordinary Christian or American respectively, is evidence of woeful ignorance at best and complete deceit at worst. By contrast, calling Osama bin Laden or Khalid Sheikh Mohammed or the members of Hamas or Hezbollah Muslims really needs no further elaboration at all.

I wrote: "Do you think it is possible God is judging Europe (with all this activist) Muslim immigration) for cursing Abraham and his descendants? Do you think it possible Breivik is God's instrument to warn Europe?"

I saw on televised video, after these slaughters over the weekend, Norway's otherwise empty churches were filled to the brim with worshippers and supplicants. Do you think Norwegians were seeking God's face, asking God what He is trying to tell them through these terrible slaughters? When tragedy or something evil befalls me (as it has), I pray and ask God what He is telling me through it? A young Christian woman taught me this many years back. Don't you do this in your life Katharina?

I don't know why you found my comment, that "Jesus ushered in nothing new" astounding. By that I mean Jesus changed nothing in terms of our relationship with God. What Moses wrote about God still stands today as it stood some four thousand years back. Nothing has changed. Why are you astounded?

You wrote:...."in Mark 16:16, Jesus says "Whoever is baptized and believes will be saved but he who does not believe will be condemned."

I don't 'assume' at all Jesus said this. He might have said it and then it might be an interpolation (an insertion into the text) by the early church fathers. I look at the Christian bible, the New Testament, as a fairly accurate portrayal of the history of that period. Unlike the prophets, the law of Moses, etc., in the Hebrew Bible, the NT makes no profession that it is prophecy. When you read the Torah, God told Moses to write His words in a book at that time. The prophets were committed to writing then and there -- some had their own scribes. They were not written fifty or sixty years after the fact, as scholars believe the gospels written. That is why I am also sceptical of Talmud or the oral tradition, which was committed to written form centuries after the alleged fact. That is why hearsay and tradition is not as reliable as that which was written at the time it was spoken or when it occurred.

If I believed that simple faith alone or belief in Jesus was all that is necessary for our salvation and our justification with God, yes I would concede that Christians are correct about their assessment that the New Testament supersedes the law of Moses, the prophets and the entirety of the Hebrew Bible, but I don't believe it. Why should I believe it Wellington?

When Jesus told his disciples he came to "fulfill the law and the prophets" I don't take it the way most Christians interpret it. If you read this statement in context, he said "I have not come to abolish the law or the prophets...." Thus by "fulfill" he meant that he came to live by the law; to demonstrate how an observant Jew should live his or her life before God; to fulfill or live by the law and to fulfill some of the prophecies. He did not mean he came to fulfill (to put an end to or to "complete") God's law in the sense that God's law no longer had any validity, or that God's law was somehow incomplete (it was nothing of the sort!) otherwise these two statements contradict one another.

I would argue Jesus might have fulfilled "some" of the Old Testament prophecies but by no means did he fulfill all of them. He fulfilled none of the ancient prophecies which spoke of messiah. The kingdom of God was not established in Jesus day in spite of his early statements that he would establish God's kingdom on earth. There was no ushering in of an era of peace in Jesus' day. The Jews did not defeat God's enemies, the Roman occupier. The wolf did not lie down with the lamb in Jesus day. Jesus fulfilled none of this. He may have fulfilled the prophecies speaking of a "suffering servant" who made intercession for his people with God and he died making intercession for his people Israel. That is all.

I do not dispute your observation that the Norwegian mass murderer is no more a true Christian than a member of the KKK is a true patriotic American. Nor do I dispute your view that "By contrast, Islamic terrorists when perpetrating their heinous actions in the name of their religion are not betraying the Islamic faith but fulfilling it."

There are indeed people calling Breivik a Christian without further elaboration. I don't have enough information to make an informed judgment. It would seem he considered himself a "cultural" Christian only. He made no claims to having a personal relationship with God that I have read. If he is as pro-Israel as I have read he is, then in that respect, he is a better "christian" than the vast majority of the world's Christians who I believe for the most part are either agnostic about Israel and Jerusalem or in the case of the Vatican, outright hostile toward Israel and Israel's Jews (Jesus' People). This will offend some but if Breivik is as pro-Israel as the media portrays him, he is a better "friend" to Jesus (the Jew) than Pope Benedict XVI, who is NOT a friend to Jesus. Not in the least is this pope a friend.

You never hear them talking about anti-Jewish bigotry either, and there is far more of that around in this world.

Norwegian Crown Prince is making Breivik's point. No?

wildjews, yes, I can understand your grievances; and God works in mysterious ways that we'll never know. But don't forget, it's mostly those on the Left that hate the Jews and Israel, such as the Norwegian Left Socialist Govt. Further, Churchill lost the 1945 election to the Labour Party as led by Clement Attlee - and hence it was the Labour Left who persecuted the Jews after WW2 such as their internment in disgusting refugee camps in Cyprus and preventing them from travelling to Israel. But Churchill always try to help the Jews as much as he could. although with so much obstruction from the Left. At - http://www.jcpa.org/JCPA/Templates/ShowPage.asp?DBID=1&LNGID=1&TMID=111&FID=382&PID=0&IID=2969

by Dr. Daniel Mandel
Published May 2009

Jewish Political Studies Review 21:1-2 (Spring 2009)

Winston Churchill - A Good Friend of Jews and Zionism?

......Churchill frequently intervened to ease the escape of Jewish refugees from Europe and to allow those reaching Palestine to stay. As first lord of the admiralty (1939-40), Churchill instructed Royal Navy vessels not to intercept ships suspected of bringing illegal Jewish immigrants to Palestine when he discovered that notice of this practice had been withheld from him by subordinate officials. When, in November 1940, the British commander in the Middle East, General Archibald Wavell, sought to have deported from Palestine a group of Jewish refugees who had reached the country aboard the Patria, Churchill intervened to prevent it and they were permitted to stay, despite the objections of officials....

Thank you for providing that additional information. Believe me, it's not always easy to pick up every detail from a 1500 page lunatics rant. I do think it's clear from the context that his fascination with Norse mythology belongs under his Norwegian/European heritage angle and his general obsession with European mono-culture, that evidently comprise both pre and post Christianity, with a clear emphasis on the latter.

So yes even though it is likely that Odinism were a very marginal influence on his acts overall, I do admit i was a bit hasty here.

On a sidenote, we do actually have a neo-Nazi organization in Norway called "Vigrid" who does follow Norse mythology teologically, but Breivik doesnt seem to have connection with them.

wildjew, when something evil happens to me, I have to keep reminding myself that all good comes from God, and all evil comes from the Devil. When I was an evil Socialist, I used to blame God for all the evil things I did or that happen to me! But now, since being a Christian, I would just pray that God saves me from the power of the Devil and his servants, besides doing what I can to fight predatory evil. If we think God is trying to talk through us through evilness, it's not true but it's the Devil trying to tempt us, for example, to take revenge and so on.

No offence intended Katharina, but like the vast majority of Christians you believe God is NOT all-powerful; there is this evil god, the devil, that does things against the good God (YHWH's) will. So when evil happens on the earth, the evil god (the devil) did it because the good God does not do evil. He only does good. If evil that happens to wicked people, this comes from the devil. I understand this doctrine. It is not the way the ancient Hebrews viewed God. They saw everything, both good and evil, coming from God. What do you Christians with these?

"For the sake of Jacob My servant, And Israel My chosen one, I have also called you by your name; I have given you a title of honor Though you have not known Me.

Isa 45:5 "I am the LORD, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me;

That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun That THERE IS NO ONE BESIDES ME. I am the LORD, and there is no other,

The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being (good) and creating calamity (evil); I am the LORD who does all these.

And:

Amo 3:6 If a trumpet is blown in a city will not the people tremble? If a calamity occurs in a city has not the LORD done it?

wildjew- what are you saying? The Devil, the angel Lucifer, for one thing is only a god to evil-believing people (like the Muslim fanatics, for example), yes, but not a god of evil side by side with a God of good, as you claim that we Christians believe. Of course we believe that our God is all powerful but He gave his cast-out angel, Lucifer some power and authority on earth, since Adam and Eve decided out of their own free will, to believe the Devil. God wanted human beings who have been graced with free will to choose for themselves between evil and good, not because there is a good God and an evil god. But God still wants to see if we would choose to follow Lucifer or God, just like when Adam and Eve made that choice.

Thank you for your reply, wildjew. Hmmm. Well, if one is a Christian (I am not but I respect the Christian religion as I do Judaism and find neither in any manner a threat to liberty, as opposed to Islam which is a grave threat to freedom), Jesus changed everything. Seen from the Christian perspective, if you have a relationship with God, you have a relationship with Jesus. That's a profound change from anything found in the Old Testament, as are many other things, for instance the seven sacraments instituted by Jesus as asserted by Roman Catholics.

As for your contention that there is no prophecy in the New Testament, I suggest you look at its last book---Revelations. Also, Jesus himself makes predictions, forecasts the future so to speak. And you ask why you should believe the New Testament as Christians do. Fair enough. But one could ask why believe the Torah as religious Jews do? To be religious one must have faith. Faith is the sine qua non element of the entire religious approach. If one does have faith (I do not), then it "only" becomes a matter of which religion you believe got it right.

Katharina, if God gave "Lucifer" (surely you know Jews do not believe in a devil) some power and authority to do evil on earth, again, how do you explain this?

"I am the LORD, and there is no other,

The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being (good) and creating calamity (evil); I am the LORD who does all these."

Amo 3:6 If a trumpet is blown in a city will not the people tremble? If a calamity (literally: evil) occurs in a city has not the LORD done it?

"Norwegian Crown Prince is making Breivik's point. No?"

There is no other way to look at it. Sometimes ordinary stupidity can be excuse. But the prince is shamelessly stupid.

wildjew, I understand where you're coming from. But the evil here means calamity or distress as punishment from God, rather than the moral evil, that harms oneself or another for no rational reason such as inspired by the Devil. Please see - http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/evil.html

Did God Create Evil - Does the Bible Say So?
by Rich Deem

.....The Bible is quite clear that God is not the author of evil and insists that He is incapable of doing so.1..

Darkness is the opposite of light. However, evil is not the opposite of peace. The Hebrew word translated "peace" is shâlôm,2 which has many meanings, mostly related to the well being of individuals. Râ‛âh,3 the Hebrew word translated "evil" in the KJV often refers to adversity or calamity. There are two forms of the word. Strong's H7451a most often refers to moral evil, whereas Strong's H7451b (the form used here) most often refers to calamity or distress. Obviously, "calamity" is a better antonym of "peace" than "evil."
Amos 3:6

* If a trumpet is blown in a city will not the people tremble? If a calamity occurs in a city has not the LORD done it? (Amos 3:6, NASB)
* When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble? When disaster comes to a city, has not the LORD caused it? (Amos 3:6, NIV)

Likewise, Amos 3:6 uses the same word, râ‛âh, referring to calamity or disaster. the context (a disaster happening to a city) does not refer to moral evil.....

That's not true at all, he also said that Robert Spencer was an author of 10 books and ran a website called "jihadwatch" those are 'true comments'!

ummm, yeah. thanks for the enlightenment. (eye roll)

could not agree with you more mike,
watch this clip by ezra lavant on who bbc and cbc considers 'terrorists' and who they choose to cover up...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_nKJRHRI7w&feature=player_embedded

Spencer: "Islam makes a lot of people be very moral, upright and live fine lives."

Here Spencer throws this doggy a bone, thats the only way to stop his mindless barkings. Spencer's statment is absolutly correct for muslims who follow the koran, their morality is the koran morality, they live upright and fine lives due to obeying the rules of the koran.

So what if the koran sanctions, wife abuse, children abuse, underage sex , ethnic cleansing and mass murders of infidals, it's all legal and moral according to the koran. it's hell for women, children, and infidals but why should alan colmes worry his little mind about those? he got the statement he wanted, and it makes his stupid liberal heart happy.

Rich Deem (sp?) is right. NASB translation is "calamity." But the Hebrew word is ra, as in "evil." KJV says evil. Nevertheless, are you willing to accept that God causes calamity in the earth? If God only does good, why would He create calamity? Why would God cause earth quakes and hurricanes and tornadoes if He only does good? If you believe God created the "devil," didn't he create evil? If God created an eternal hell (for "unbelievers" no matter how righteous or decent) which Christians believe, but Jews do not believe, isn't God a monster?

I see what you mean but I didn't take it that way and in a sense, Muslims (many) do live moral lives in a sense. Muslims, or devout Muslims, generally don't drink (except maybe in secret) and I suspect they are better for it. Unlike people in the west, you don't see drunkenness in Iran and Saudi Arabia. Unlike the west, women generally dress modestly in Muslim countries. They are not having abortions or practicing homosexuality (not openly as we see in the west) by and large. Muslims would argue they don't have the kind of decadence, drug abuse, pornography, sexual license (promiscuity) among their youth and young girls, etc., like we have in the West. I took that to mean what Robert was trying to convey. It wasn't a sop to Colmes. Robert, I took it was being sincere. My only point is this. If a Muslim celebrates the kind of savagery against unbelievers we read on this site daily (no matter how decent these unbelievers may be), I have difficulty ascribing goodness to these devout Muslims irrespective of their otherwise moral lives.

When the martial artist Bruce Lee was alive he and some others were held-up and robbed in an elevator. When one of the victoms found out who he was she approached him and asked him, "Why didn't you do something?", he replied, 'It wasn't the time'.
I believe Mr. Spencer didn't loose an oppertunity, but played it just right. Alan Colmes wanted a certain response and Didn't get it from Mr. Spencer. Colmes had a plan of attack and clearly was baiting Mr. Spencer with those questions, while it was so obvious how Colmes was talking over Mr. Spencer, getting frustrated when the fish wouldn't bite, etc. It was clear, also, that this man knew nothing but may have read for about 5 min. before the interview.
Well done, Robert!

Hi Wildjew!

You keep asking all of these tough questions! You know they fall into the category of Theodicy, right? They are the hardest questions to ask any religious person, even Christians! Perhaps especially Christians. ;-)

I have a good friend who is an atheist. Now, I don't have a lot of respect for most reasons to be an atheist, but failure to navigate the shoals and reefs of theodicy is to me the great exception. If one looks at the evil in the world and emotionally concludes there is no God then I can't really argue. I could cite counterarguments which I believe to be true, but they are no stronger than that conclusion. As friends we respect each other perfectly and we have a good time.

See ya around, my friend.

If that idiot had asked me that same question, I would have said the same as Robert because it is very broad answer that hides the true meaning, but since Alan is such a nitwit who doesn't know islam, that meaning is lost to him, but not to us.
I have lived among muslims in India long enough to know their habits and feelings. Everything they do is islamicly pure and adheres to koranic principals. Most are not violent thugs many are good neighbors, but hey when the time comes and there is a jihad these people will join the jihad to loot, rape, and kill as taught in the Koran and they would be doing nothing wrong according to its teachings.

I hear you.

Tom, it's been a while since I visited this term, theodicy. I found it for the first time in commentaries on the book of Job. Job's three friends tried to justify God for bringing evil upon the wretched man. His "friends" explained to Job, he had to be a wicked man and a sinner, otherwise what else could explain his terrible misfortune? My on-line dictionary says theodicy is "the branch of theology concerned with defending the attributes of God against objections resulting from physical and moral evil."

I'm not sure that is what I am doing as much as attempting to explain the nature of God as I read it in the Hebrew Bible; from the patriarchs to the prophets. Far from defending the attributes of God, I suspect many Christians might think I hold a rather dark view of the Creator. For me, apprehending a God from whom everything proceeds, both good and ill, I think helps to better understand the world around us. That's the way I see it at any rate. I'm not trying to defend God's judgments. Many are beyond explanation or understanding for this mortal.

"My on-line dictionary says theodicy is "the branch of theology concerned with defending the attributes of God against objections resulting from physical and moral evil."

"I'm not sure that is what I am doing as much as attempting to explain the nature of God as I read it in the Hebrew Bible; from the patriarchs to the prophets."

Yes, I guess that your dictionary definition does fit how katherine and others were replying to your questions. I saw your Socratic method as part of that process, even if you didn't intend it as such.

"Far from defending the attributes of God, I suspect many Christians might think I hold a rather dark view of the Creator. For me, apprehending a God from whom everything proceeds, both good and ill, I think helps to better understand the world around us."

Yes, your views on this subject are, so I've been taught, the 'Classical' Jewish views on the subject. My understanding is that it is only at the time of the writing of Job when the later view of God as merely "allowing" evil began to be seen, as well as the appearance of an opponent or 'satan'.

"Many [of God's judgments] are beyond explanation or understanding for this mortal."

My conclusion also.

Canto28 wrote:

I never realized how awful a left wing commentator Alan Colmes is till now. He seems even evil. By his logic anyone who criticizes an ideology or persons has given "aid and comfort" to any psychopath who might commit atrocities in the name of combating that ideology or persons. Alan is insane to denounce Mr. Spencer this way, and extremely immoral in this kind of irresponsibility.
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Very, very true, Canto. This is like accusing a person during the late 1930s who was concerned about the brutal rise of Fascism in Europe and the Rape of Nanking of wanting some psycho to violently target that nice Japanese greengrocer on the corner or the lovely German couple down the street.

Standing against evil *is not* the same as condoning or inspiring evil. It's simply madness—but all too many seem persuaded by this...

Hey, I'd like the whole world to become a conservative Christian place--albeit I'll say that there probably will be certain cultural differences remaining, otherwise, how else could John have differentiated people of different peoples, tongues, and nations in heaven (Rev. 7:9).

However, whereas I accept the justice of defensive war, I do not believe that Scripture commands us to achieve the goal I have given above by aggressive violence.

I concur with many posters here than most of the people Robert comes up against in his media broadcasts probably haven't learned a thing about Islam since 8th grade social studies.