"Anti-jihadists" carry water for antisemitism in EDL; attack SIOA

There is circulating around the blogosphere an "Open Letter to Pamela Geller," attacking my SIOA colleague for her concerns about the EDL. Pamela Geller has responded in great detail here, and since I am in full agreement with the statement that precipitated this attack, I feel it incumbent upon me to respond also. In fact, when Pamela first crafted her statement about the EDL, before she published it she asked me what I thought of it, and I suggested that she add a few thoughts -- which she did. So the statement as it stands represents as much my sentiments as hers. It was SIOA's position.

What is unaccountable is that this "Open Letter" was published after the appearance of EDL chief Tommy Robinson's statement yesterday, which addressed as valid the very concerns Pamela raised -- the ones that the "Open Letter" claims are baseless and defamatory.

So what is the agenda here? This is just the latest in a series of unwarranted and unjustifiable attacks by Gates of Vienna and other signers of this "Open Letter" on Pamela Geller and me. It is always dispiriting when professed anti-jihadists fight against other anti-jihadists instead of against the jihadists, and Gates of Vienna and other sites allied with it have been doing that for quite some time. I guess for some people, gaining market share by denigrating more effective warriors is more important than fighting the actual war. But particularly revealing here is the fact that, as Pamela notes below, some of those who are shown as signing the "Open Letter" never approved the use of their names at all. It looks as if these puffed-up self-styled machiavellis and self-righteous, short-sighted purveyors of friendly fire are getting desperate.

Here is Pamela's post:

I am a longtime, original supporter of the English Defence League from the very first demo in 2009, before anyone would touch them with a ten-foot pole – even this group of keyboard warriors. No one in America has taken as much heat as I have for supporting the EDL. No one. My defense of the EDL is constantly used to defame me, and I have never faltered in my support of the group. When I speak at universities, I am routinely challenged about the EDL (an example is at minute 4:45 of this video). CAIR includes the EDL in every press release on me; the Southern Poverty Law Center uses it all the time. The Guardian, Newsweek, and the New York Times mentioned it in their articles about me. Notorious blogger Max Blumenthal at the Huffington Post have even gone so far as to call the EDL “Atlas’s Thugs.” And I never wavered.

From their first demo, when they were denounced and smeared as the scum of the earth, I knew the EDL was noble and true. I still believe that. I still believe that the majority of the membership are good and decent and fine people. The issue for some time has been certain elements in the administration. There will always be infiltrators and plants who get into the membership. But it is important to keep the admins clean.

This is an ongoing problem, and hardly a secret. It was most obviously acknowledged in yesterday’s statement by the leader of the EDL, Tommy Robinson. He said: “We repudiate any individual, group or writing that favors anti-Semitism, neofascism, and any race-based ideology. Any rogue elements within the EDL who go against our mission statement and our beliefs will be removed from the organization; we are determined to remain true to our mission. Anti-Semitism will not ever be tolerated within the EDL.”

And there is anti-Semitism in the EDL now. This is much bigger than Roberta Moore. She is just the tip of the spear. It is not going away with her resignation, as evidenced by the anti-Semitic comments at Atlas (here and here) and elsewhere, and the attacks on the EDL’s Jewish division as a whole. The Open Letter complains that I adduced no evidence, but in fact the evidence is available for everyone to see. As one commenter wrote at Atlas:

I can not see how Pamela's comment has in any way damaged her reputation because what has been said is true. I shouldn't think Pamela stands alone on this, lets not forget, the areas of EDL conversation have been open to public viewing for a long while, ie the forums and facebook. The content has been there for all to see. No doubt there are many others who have witnessed the downward spiral. It is to be expected that some members will crawl out off woodwork armed with their own twisted version of events. You may fool some but not all. There has been, for quite some time, a concerted effort by a main core of ruthless people, and one person in particular springs to mind, who has been a huge driving force behind a crusade to disband the Jewish Division. Come what may, there were absolutely determined to oust Roberta and then to disband the Jewish Division, not satisfied with that, they also would like to see the LGBT Division ousted as well as other divisions ie Pakistani Christian, Hindu and Sikh support etc. It has been a slow process of infiltration, not forgetting, great effort has been made in trying to brainwash and turn others against Israel, those gullible enough not to do their own research or think for themselves, were being deliberately force-fed the instigators vile and moronic distaste for anything to do with Israel. At one stage the EDL forums were, to an extent, regulated, but as time drew on it lapsed and it became free flow abuse of Israel/Jews, Roberta, supporters of Israel and Jews. It got to the stage where people felt criminal to announce their support for Israel - if you were a supporter of Israel and disagreed with anti-semitic viewpoints, people were accused of being a plant, an infiltrator and a lobbyist, and publicly denigrated! At one point any support shown towards the BNP was subtly halted, but with time this too became accepted. It got to the stage where topics on Israel where moved to a sub-sub-forum part of the board by a core element, by the same instigators! Sometimes threads and posts would disappear. People who wanted to discuss the topic of Israel were attacked and bullied, and between the nasty core of people they would get the person banned. We lost some interesting members. So, it doesn't surprise me to see people swarm over here with only half of the story - it wouldn't look good telling the truth would it? It doesn't take a lot of working out which side of the fence they've been sitting on and who they are protecting. Well, keep up with the lies and half truths, but remember, I won't sit here and let the lies stay uncountered. There is a lot more I could say, but for the time being I am done here.

My support for the EDL has been unwavering, but I cannot and will not sanction anti-Semitic infiltration.

It seems to me that this Open Letter that was written to me has a far different agenda from its stated purpose. Ned May, who is “Baron Bodissey” of Gates of Vienna, is the Machiavellian plotter behind this attack on me – and he himself described himself as such in the EDL forums. He has posted scurrilous attacks on me and Robert Spencer well before this. Perhaps because he has accomplished little, he seeks to attain some sort of notoriety by destroying elements of the counterjihad movement that are more effective than he is.

At the same time, and probably not coincidentally, Gates of Vienna has become a home for many anti-Semitic rants that are deeply disturbing; not only are these sanctioned by the proprietors, but they’ve added to the chorus. As Ayn Rand said, “In any compromise between food and poison, it is only death that can win. In any compromise between good and evil, it is only evil that can profit.”

Now the “Baron” is urging other bloggers to join him in this campaign of destruction, and in the absence of significant traction, he has even gone so far as to include peoples’ names who never agreed to be on the list. Holger Danske and Henrik Raeder Clausen of Europe News wrote me to assure me that their names were ill-used: they had never agreed to sign on. I am told that Hans Erling Jensen, whose name also appears on it, is angry about this Open Letter also.

One who did sign on voluntarily, however, was KGS of Tundra Tabloids. I was genuinely surprised when I saw that he had added his name to the list. To me, this is particularly galling. Without going into details, I took a lot of heat covering for KGS and maintaining confidentiality back in 2009 when “Baron Bodissey” began falsely accusing of violating that confidentiality. But I kept silent so as not to expose KGS. And this is how I am repaid.

Then there was a revealing incident, in 2010, when the “Baron” and many of the signers of this Open Letter falsely accused Spencer and me of being responsible for YouTube’s deletion of a video. They had taken video from our inaugural AFDI conference at CPAC in 2010 of Allen West’s speech and subtitled it in various European languages. They had taken the video without the knowledge or consent of the person who filmed it, Pamela Hall – who thereupon complained to them.

They did not answer, so she complained to YouTube, as she had every right to do. YouTube removed the video after it had gotten an enormous number of hits. Ned and the others blamed us for this removal, and accused us of selfishness and lack of commitment to the cause – and continued these false accusations even after we had told them that we had known nothing about any complaints about the video.

Why? Why would they knowingly propagate falsehoods? What’s their real agenda?

I have been loathe to air all this out publicly, unlike this group, which seems to thrive on these conflicts -- although I did address their scandalous lies about the West video at the time. Other EDL members have sent me screenshots of Vlad and Ned in their forums, making the most egregious statements about me. They have been doing this for some time now. So what’s their real motive in this? My work speaks for itself -- and now clearly, so does theirs.

At their sites, they’re even deleting comments that defend my position. My partner Anders Gravers of Stop the Islamisation of Denmark tried to add this comment at Liberties Alliance, but it was blocked: “Henrik Ræder from Europe News says he has not been asked if he wanted to be on the list. Maybe he doesn't want to be on the list because Tommy Robinson admits that there is a problem with antisemitism but says it will be solved and that EDL is 100% behind Jews and Israel. These statements from Robinson should end the allegations that Pamela is not loyal to the cause and EDL. There will always be attempts on infiltration of groups like ours from the red nazis and the brown nazis. The only thing we can do is to clean out when we find them.” And John Jay tried to add a comment at Gates of Vienna, but was also blocked – read about it here.

I want to urge bloggers who may not be aware of the details, and are being strong-armed into signing this statement, that they first get all the facts. There may be other people on that list whose names are unauthorized. Why would they falsely put people’s names there? What are they trying to do?

Everyone on that list should be deeply concerned about the hijacking of the EDL. By ignoring it, these bloggers are sanctioning this vile racism. They completely disrespected Tommy Robinson by disregarding and ignoring his statement, which confirmed the concerns I had expressed in my own statement – the very concerns this group claims are without supporting evidence. Is there more to that? Is this cabal working to undermine his leadership?

In contrast, I spoke to Tommy Robinson at length; he issued his statement to SIOA. Considering his statement, I am not withdrawing my support for the EDL, but I continue to be deeply concerned and will be watching how events unfold. Instead of working to purge the EDL of these vile elements, the signers of this Open Letter are trying to destroy those of us who seek to maintain the proper focus of our mission and the EDL’s mission, which is fighting for freedom. I support the EDL’s original mission, but we cannot sanction evil and cover it up. We should expose it to the sunlight, so as to ensure that the group stays true to its original mission, and so that that mission is not compromised. These Machiavellian bloggers ought to know that.

There is a struggle for the soul of the EDL. Which side do you come down on?

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I stand with Geller! And Spencer. ALWAYS.

Ideological hijackers pollute politics in general. The Tea Party movement includes variants from Libertarians to Anti-Abortionists. The original EDL countered muslims who protested military funerals, and marches. At first, they would post notice of a patriotic event, and a random collection of individuals would respond. When they got organized, agendists tried to take broaden the original patriotic objective.

This is so sad. I have been supporting the EDL, too. It sounds like the anti-Semites jumped over from the BNP. I hope the EDL can purge its racist elements and redeem and restore the group to its inclusive umbrella solely to fight the cancer that is Islam and to fight it together with all people who have an interest in seeing their freedoms remain intact.

I got your six, Robert. Pamela's, too.

Robert, I am with you & Pamela and make my stand here:
THIS Blogger Stands With Geller

I hope other bloggers will join me.

Pam Geller (I think - can't tell from the indenting due the the length of the post) wrote:

"And John Jay tried to add a comment at Gates of Vienna, but was also blocked"

Ms. Ned May aka Dymphna at GoV has apparently manually reposted John Jay's comment. Assuming it was the same comment, this is now a moot point. It appears he was not blocked, but the comment was accidentally dropped.

========================

Robert, I think that your wording on the EDL's problems here is the correct one. Thanks!

========================

I find this whole episode to be disheartening. We do not need these divisions. We need to be honest about our problems and fix them. We have people of intelligence and passion who are leading our side of this struggle, but sometimes the passion causes problems. For example, I find Pam's description above of YouTube copyright infringement to the factually credible. I can understand how this mistake was made, and I can understand how it is continuing to fester. We cannot afford this.

I am sure that our opponents are laughing at us right now.

Another reason for my unhappiness over this:

Elisabeth Sabaditsch-Wolff has apparently added her name to the 'Open Letter'.

Another example of why a division of anti-jihadists into camps will hurt us.

I am a big supporter of the EDL and Robert and Pamala. One thing we all have to realize is that this is a war. There are those on 'the other side' who want to take all of these people and organizations down. We have to stay alert to those who, in favoring the islamists' cause, would have the tactic of joining/infiltrating such groups as the EDL, only to turn around and spout racism/anti-semitism, and/or recruit such people, simply as a way to take the organization down. 'War is deceit' should never be far from our minds when dealing with such matters. Tommy needs our support as his cause is noble and his heart is definitely in the right place. He is being attacked from ALL ANGLES. He needs great support to deal with these attacks, as do Robert and Pamala. If we are to be effective, these groups, ultimately, need to work together. We need to learn from the islamists that it is very effective when groups of people organize together for a common cause. The EDL, Robert, & Pamala all share the common cause of trying bring awareness to the islamist threat and save our common civilization. This works as long as the cause isn't infiltrated with nefarious intentions and idealogues, which is what Pamala, Robert, and Tommy are addressing.

Not going to go all Johnson on you, but GoV has been a problematic-at-best ally for a long, long time.

A major problem is reactions like this to Pam's post
http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/50932/edl-jewish-division-leader-roberta-moore-quits
even though they had good time to include Tommys response, and without a more meaningful retraction, the damage will just continue.

When there's a programmatic, pervasive and overwhelming tendency to deny reality in the population, the existence of an untoward component in the group intent on fixing a bad reality becomes an easy hand hold for the deniers.

" I stand with Geller. And Spencer. ALWAYS. ".

My thoughts, exactly.

Our best effort to combat Islam, is to realise that Islam in it's totality, is a political idiology. It's harsh religious component, was designed to control it's followers for political ends.

The sooner we all acknowledge that this is what the religious aspect of Islam was designed to do, the better A unified alliance against an Islamic political agenda is what's at hand. Although religion is an important part of it, it is only incidental to the overall Islamic agenda. global Islamic domination

EDL has failed our trust. The National Front of France are even worse. Those are the ones we should be aware of, and stir clear of them. The Northern League of Italy and Geert Wilders' Dutch Freedom Party, however, are glorious. Let us unite around them into Zionist Resistance of Jewish and non-Jewish, religious and non-religious people of all backgrounds.
Zionism and only Zionism can save Western civilization.
Zionism and only Zionism can save this world.

Ruslan Tokhchukov, EnragedSince1999.

Any self-respecting antisemite would surely take the time to read the foundational scriptures of Islam, cuz Jew-hatred is a princple foundation stone of the world's fastest growing religion.

*** Ishaq 240 ***

The Jews are a nation of liars.... The Jews are a treacherous, lying, and evil people.
-- the Holy Prophet Mohammed

Ya'd think this group operating under the EDL banner would reject it, and instead convert to Moslemhood, which is heaven for any Jew-hater with a grain of ambition.

The political litmus test for the EDL is, I think, support for Israel. Tommy Robinson's statement passes this test; I trust that it is reflective of the whole EDL organization, which I am inclined to support, given the hard work they have done opposing the Islamic supremacists. If there are internal battles being fought inside the EDL, we need to know about them, and to discuss them in a calm way.

If the EDL brand name has been poisoned then the most cost effective way to remedy it might be to leave it behind and start a whole new brand name, where pro-freedom folks can reorganize.

This is different than having the US Congress and the executive branch poisoned by Muslim Brotherhood advocates, where we must clean house or move to a new land.

It is also dispiriting to learn how unbalanced and frankly deranged some of the people doing this work can be. The more I have researched the workings of the EDL and Roberta Moore and her connection with Victor Vancier of the JTF, all under the banner of confronting anti-Semitism, the less hopeful I become that anything will be accomplished. It is no wonder that members of the Jewish community have been warned to stay away from the EDL.

You'd think confronting nazis in Britain and Europe would be a no-brainer, but sadly that isn't at all the case.

At least the US Congress has not invited virulent anti-Semitic members of the Islamic Movement to speak. ( Raed Salah, a leader of the Islamic Movement in Israel, is speaking at a June 29 event, Building Peace and Justice in Jerusalem, hosted in Parliament by the Palestine Solidarity Campaign. thejc.com -- He wasn't even supposed to be let into the UK, somehow was let in, and is now being deported. )

As a relatively new reader to Atlas and JW, I am somewhat shell shocked by all of this but have confidence in the integrity of what you and Pamela are doing.

I'm really disturbed to hear about antisemitism in the EDL-although Tommy Robinson seems like a stalwart fellow.

Also sorry to hear about Gates of Vienna. From what I know about them, they have some good work against the Jihad.

But I, for one, will never stand with antisemites.

One major thing I have always respected about Robert Spencer and Pamella Geller is how principled they are. It's not just about fighting Jihad, but about standing up for our own values.

Sadly, wherever an organisation dedicated to opposing an ideology primarily professed by immigrants, racist knuckledraggers motivated primarily by racism will try to get in. The most obvious ones that are known to have a history will be fairly easy to weed out, but often, some members true agendas do not become obvious until it is too late.

So what you're saying is that Charles Johnson was right all along about those guys-- Are you realy, really, REALLY surprised?

gravenimage

"One major thing I have always respected about Robert Spencer and Pamella Geller is how principled they are."

HA! Pamela Geller is urging people to leave the EDL and join with someone who wants to associate closely with a racist, homophobic terrorist and his racist, homophobic organisation. And yes, I'm talking about Roberta Moore. That's how "principled" Pamela Geller is.
And as for Robert Spencer, let's not forget that he has on this very site, allowed one of his contributors to pretty much advocate tearing apart the universal declaration of human rights, all in the name of combating islam. That's how "principled" Spencer is.
I'm not denying they have principles, but they are most assuredly not particularly "principled". If you believe that, you are NOT paying attention.

Don't get me wrong, I respect Robert, and I believe Pamela is doing important work. But they are both human, they are both fallable and they have presented no evidence to support their claim on this. And whereas they both believe Tommy Robinsons statement validated their claim, it did in fact not. They claimed that "neo-fascists" had infiltrated the administration, whereas Tommy Robinson talked about "people on the fringes of this movement". That's two very different scenarios. One group, the one Pamela and Spencer talked about, is very close to the power, if not wielding some part of it. The other group, the one Tommy was talking about, is far from it.

But isn't it interesting that Tommy Robinson said "We repudiate any individual, group or writing that favors anti-Semitism, neofascism, and any race-based ideology", and both Spencer and Pamela want(ed) people to leave Tommy to join with someone who wants to associate with a racist, homophobic terrorist and his racist, homophobic organisation instead? Yeaaaah, that's gonna be absolutely wonderful for the counter-jihad movement, isn't it? Maybe Pamela and Robert should take a long hard look at their (former) "most trusted person in the EDL", and withdraw their support from her instead/as well?

Regards

gravenimage

"One major thing I have always respected about Robert Spencer and Pamella Geller is how principled they are."

HA! Pamela Geller is urging people to leave the EDL and join with someone who wants to associate closely with a racist, homophobic terrorist and his racist, homophobic organisation. And yes, I'm talking about Roberta Moore. That's how "principled" Pamela Geller is.
And as for Robert Spencer, let's not forget that he has on this very site, allowed one of his contributors to pretty much advocate tearing apart the universal declaration of human rights, all in the name of combating islam. That's how "principled" Spencer is.
I'm not denying they have principles, but they are most assuredly not particularly "principled". If you believe that, you are NOT paying attention.

Don't get me wrong, I respect Robert, and I believe Pamela is doing important work. But they are both human, they are both fallable and they have presented no evidence to support their claim on this. And whereas they both believe Tommy Robinsons statement validated their claim, it did in fact not. They claimed that "neo-fascists" had infiltrated the administration, whereas Tommy Robinson talked about "people on the fringes of this movement". That's two very different scenarios. One group, the one Pamela and Spencer talked about, is very close to the power, if not wielding some part of it. The other group, the one Tommy was talking about, is far from it.

But isn't it interesting that Tommy Robinson said "We repudiate any individual, group or writing that favors anti-Semitism, neofascism, and any race-based ideology", and both Spencer and Pamela want(ed) people to leave Tommy to join with someone who wants to associate with a racist, homophobic terrorist and his racist, homophobic organisation instead? Yeaaaah, that's gonna be absolutely wonderful for the counter-jihad movement, isn't it? Maybe Pamela and Robert should take a long hard look at their (former) "most trusted person in the EDL", and withdraw their support from her instead/as well?

Regards

SHOW ME where Pamela or Robert said any such thing that people should leave the EDL, go ahead and try, you won't be able to because you are ignorantly just making stuff up. Did you even READ Pamela's or Robert's posts? Or are you just knee jerking to the slander contained in that detestable "Open letter" tripe? I read Pamela's posts, and Robert's, about this, in no place to they tell ANYONE to "leave the EDL".

Application of the addage "Divide and conquer" is how the Nazis seized power through ostensibly democratic means and lead Germany and much of Europe down the dark corridor to destruction.

Had the democratic opposition been united, Hitler could not have been elected.

It's to everyone's advantage to never allow ideological differences to detract from the ultimate goal of countering Islamic supremacism.

Ayn Rand was correct when she stated "In the compromise between food and poison, only death is the winner."

Regarding the "Universal Declaration of Human Rights" and the "Cairo Declaration of Human Rights" (which the Muslims prefer) Andrew C. McCarthy writes:

"Today, the OIC is Islam’s central point of union against the unfaithful. Those who insist that the 1,400-year-old dividing line between Muslims and non-Muslims is ephemeral, that all we need is a little more understanding of how alike we all really are, would do well to consider the OIC’s Cairo Declaration of 1990. It is the ummah’s “Declaration of Human Rights in Islam,” proclaimed precisely because Islamic states reject the 1948 Declaration of Human Rights promulgated by the United Nations under the guidance of progressives in the United States and the West. That is, the leaders of the Muslim world are adamant that Western principles are not universal.

They are quite right about that. The Cairo Declaration boasts that Allah has made the Islamic ummah “the best community . . . which gave humanity a universal and well-balanced civilization.” It is the “historical role” of the ummah to “civilize” the rest of the world — not the other way around. [...]

The Declaration makes abundantly clear that this civilization is to be attained by adherence to sharia. “All rights and freedoms” recognized by Islam “are subject to the Islamic Shari’ah,” which “is the only source of reference for [their] explanation or clarification.” Though men and women are said by the Declaration to be equal in “human dignity,” sharia elucidates their very different rights and obligations — their basic inequality. Sharia expressly controls freedom of movement and claims of asylum. The Declaration further states that “there shall be no crime or punishment except as provided for in Shari’ah” — a blatant reaffirmation of penalties deemed cruel and unusual in the West. And the right to free expression is permitted only insofar as it “would not be contrary to the principles of Shari’ah” — meaning that Islam may not be critically examined, nor will the ummah abide any dissemination of “information” that would “violate sanctities and the dignity of Prophets, undermine moral and ethical Values, or disintegrate, corrupt or harm society, or weaken its faith.” "

Is it not difficult enough to fight the islamists without all this infighting? I'm surprised and disgusted by this turn of events. I held Gates Of Vienna in high regard until yesterday. Now I'm suspicious of their motives.

Robert & Pam I have your backs and stand on guard from here on in.

While we fight amongst ourselves they make further inroads. For God's sake , grow up before everything is lost.

There IS something odd going on over at GatesOfVienna.

And it is regrettable as we need a source of translations and news selections about what is going on in Europe. They could have been a reliable one if they had chosen to.

There was a period when I used to hang out on their site. I was put off however by the tone of some of their comments/dialogues -- and even more put off by the fact that some of their regulars, and popular ones at that, seemed to display collectivist and racist premises in their reasoning.

It was a bit creepy. So that put me off participation, as I wasn't nuts about the company I found myself in -- even though the selection of news coverage was still interesting.

The thing that put me off the site though was oddly trivial, but in it's own way even more creepy than racist commenters who the publisher's can't be held completely answerable for.

I posted a reply to a comment by someone who used a Japanese-language handle. That handle translated roughly as "Western name-of-Japanes-pickle". So I left a reply which was a gentle joke/pun in Japanese, more or less asking about whether he/she was really a pickle, or some such silly thing.

The GoV people deleted my post.

When I contacted them to ask why, I was informed that they couldn't understand what I had written, and were concerned that I had left a post on their site that said something awful.

In an age when there must be a dozen fairly reliable and free online translation services this struck me as very peculiar indeed. If they really cared to know what I had written it was easy to find out in a minute.

I took it as a sign that there was probably something weird and paranoid going on at GoV. So I left off going there at all, and set about looking for other sources for Euro-news, particularly Euro resistance news.

It's a shame.

As I said, an English language popularization of what's really going on in Europe would be very useful -- if it were reliable.

Seems to me that the GoV folks have -- with this new and bizarre development -- more or less nailed the coffin shut on their credibility.

Their accusations against Robert and Pamela are grotesque, traitorous to the cause, and ultimately unforgivable.

To hell with them.

I will add that wherever there is racism and/or collectivism there is envy and a crowd mentality.

And wherever there is envy and a crowd mentality there is evil.

And -- well, evil is as evil does. Evil WILL out sooner or later.

First off, Pamela Geller made accusations against the EDL without providing a shred of evidence, other then claiming one person (a disgruntled former member) told her this. Both Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer repeated these unsubstantiated allegations, for all intents and purposes throwing the EDL under the bus. Geller encourages anti-jihadists to leave the group and rally around this Roberta Moore character.

Tommy Robinson responds that any and all anti-Semitic types would be kicked out of the EDL, and that the EDL has always been solidly pro-Israel.

After Robinson rebuts the ridiculous attack on the EDL, Geller claims she is not going to withdraw her support for the EDL (despite her previous call for people to leave the EDL), but Spencer and Geller are "monitering" the situation (as if everything must pass their sniff test). Furthermore, Geller twists Robinson's words and claims his rebuttal of anti-Semitic and anti-Israel attitudes and members in the EDL as proof that the EDL was inflitrated by anti-Semites and neo-fascists, though he clearly made no such admission.

The signers of the Open Letter pointed out that Geller's charges against the EDL were not true and asked her in good faith to apologize. But of course neither Geller's, nor Spencer's egos will allow this and they denounce the signatories as "water carriers" for anti-Semites and as unwittingly aiding jihadist by holding Geller accountable for her actions.

I must say that Pamela Geller and especially Robert Spencer have lost a lot of my respect over the way they handled this.

"We do not need these divisions. We need to be honest about our problems and fix them."

Hear Hear!

The root of the problem appears to be that Ms. Gellar posted a letter in which she expressed her conclusions without expressing the events which lead to those conclusions to anyones satisfaction. I strongly suspect that that is what the signatories of the letter are reacting to.

But instead of giving her the benifit of the doubt and waiting for further information Gates of Vienna reacted too quickly and in too high handed a manner.

Had they waited a day or two and read the comments under the subsequent posts on the matter, things would have become clearer to them.

The following information and the nasty behavior of some commenters on those pages made it clear to me that Ms Gellar was justified in being concearned. I'd not seen behavior like that since I grew out of izlamo-troll hunting on youtube.

Comparisons of quality, content and (cough) judgment between the two are irrellevant. I don't follow GOV as I once did but I don't recall anti Israel or anti jewish rants from when I used to read it.

And as far as suffuciant/unsufficiant coverage of Ms Wolfe's trial: This might at first seem an apt criticism BUT-

Different bloggers cover different subjects and want their own niches. If one blogger is covering something well there is not so much need for everyone else to do so. Untill there are infininte hours in the day for everyone to write everything and read everything, prominant bloggers can be forgiven for not posting about absolutely everything.

Furthermore it's counter productive to post too many posts on too many subjecs. My current FB network has many members (more in a week than my social life FB page has gotten in 2 years - sigh) and the sheer magnitude of posts results in only a very few people reading any one post. Within a minute of it's posting any article becomes burried under a pile of repostings of old articles and minutae and the time putting it together has been wasted.

Thanks for the link. Just read the article.

Mark Gardner, from the Community Security Trust, said: "This latest development shows, yet again, why Jews should not be involved in such circles."

Who's Mark Gardner when he's at home, punching kittens?

Whoops please delete that last post I assumed Mark Gardner was an antisemite but his statment was referring to the groups, not Jews. PLEASE DELETE THAT LAST POST!

He is wrong but not antisemetic. And it's OT.

It turns out when he is at home he is not punching kittens but running a charity to ensure the safety and security of the Jewish community in the UK. (however effectively I certainly would not venture to say)

It looks like I made the exact same mistake the Baron did and over reacted before getting enough information. Pretty damn funny but shame on me all the same.

You wrote: "First off, Pamela Geller made accusations against the EDL without providing a shred of evidence....Tommy Robinson responds that any and all anti-Semitic types would be kicked out of the EDL, and that the EDL has always been solidly pro-Israel."

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I got the impression reading Pamela Geller's comments section on this yesterday, some EDL members do indeed have issues with Israel and an Israel defending herself in the face of Muslim violence. "Israel does not always behave impeccably," one member wrote. When I pressed this member he said I was "going off topic and attempting an inquisition."

The point is this. Israel is on the front lines fighting the jihadists. If EDL has anti-Semites within its ranks they should be purged. I don't know why Robert Spencer and Pamela Geller simply do not disassociate themselves from this movement altogether until it purges the anti-Semites, racists and haters of Israel from its ranks. It is as simple as that.

Steve


Pamela Geller never told anyone to leave EDL and join something else. Did you even READ her post, or did you just jump on the dogpile bandwagon after reading that "open letter" which was posted AFTER Tommy Robinson communicated with Pamela and wrote his letter acknowledging that there is a problem which he said will be dealt with?

I'm deeply disturbed by this schism that appears to have developed in the community of the anti-jihadists. I'm a regular reader of TROP, Robert Spencer's Jihad Watch, and Pamela Gellar's Atlas Shrugs sites.

I don't normally log in directly to Gates of Vienna, and have depended largely on links provided by the above sites to read their content, which has been valuable, and a quick scan of recent posting doesn't appear to contain any anti-Jewish or anti-Israel articles. I admit to simply not knowing about any content on GoV that has been anti-Semitic.

Being American, I don't know much about the EDL beyond what I get from Robert and Pamela, but I can agree that any organization can be infiltrated by violent and vocal elements that don't jive with the organization's stated goals. Witness the leftist liberals desire to equate the "tea party" with KKK racism based on a few racist individuals that show up at their rallies to get media attention.

If there have been posts that have been made or open letters that have been written that undermine our shared goal of protecting freedom and limiting the expansionist goals of political islam, then you guys need to work it out, rather than sniping at one another.

None of you are responsible for off-the-wall comments made by crazies on your respective sites, but we do need you to lead the conversation. The goal of securing our freedoms is way too important for us to be fighting with one another over "open letters" written in the heat of argument, or posts made on one site or another.

I NEED you to be focused, united and together on this.

Zilla, if Pamela Geller never told people to leave the EDL and join\start another organization, then exactly who said this?

Now that the person whom I most trusted in the EDL, Roberta Moore, has resigned, as she was increasingly uncomfortable with the neo-fascists that had infiltrated the administration of the group, I too am withdrawing my support from the EDL. I hope that genuine anti-jihadists in Britain will also leave the EDL and work with Roberta on starting a new group that will resist definitively and firmly all attempts to divert it from its mission of fighting against jihad and for human rights.

Please read the last paragraph of her EDL denunciation.

Robert, I have followed your blog for years and have learned much and appreciate your efforts and sacrifice.

Now for the big BUT - you should probably take a half-step back here and get to the facts of the matter. This is too important, per ehnj above, to let this fester and hurt our collective efforts.

Please focus on the facts, and leave out all personal attacks and insults. It does not become you and dilutes your message.

One focus in this issue seems to be - Did Pamela call to end support for the EDL? Sorry Zilla, what else is "Now that the person whom I most trusted in the EDL, Roberta Moore, has resigned, as she was increasingly uncomfortable with the neo-fascists that had infiltrated the administration of the group, I too am withdrawing my support from the EDL. I hope that genuine anti-jihadists in Britain will also leave the EDL and work with Roberta on starting a new group" That sure sounds definitive to me - am I missing something that changes the meaning?

Robert, some here have pointed out this appears to be a case of overreaction by Pamela, and the facts are not put forth by Roberta Moore. I'm leaning that direction.

Please, Robert, I implore you to put aside personal pride and ego and get to the bottom of this - and if the "facts" from Roberta were wrong i would expect to see an apology from you, and certainly from Pamela. We all can make mistakes - not all of us have the integrity like you to prove the point or withdraw the accusation. I occasionally read GOV and I see their point, but from both sides the descent into personal attacks is amateur and counterproductive.

Robert, you need to get to the bottom of this ASAP and clean up this mess.

Tommy Robinson communicated with Pamela and wrote his letter acknowledging that there is a problem which he said will be dealt with?

You should re-read Mr. Robinson's response. He never said there was a problem, but reaffirmed the EDL's long standing policy of supporting Israel and its policy of kicking out anti-Semites.

I of course stand with RS, Pam, and the EDL.

There comes a time when a movement has to decide what they stand and the reason behind it. Just being anti jihadist or anti islam is not enough. What is the reason for being anti islam?
The leftists, libs, and their muslim buddies love to portray the movement as being associated with white knuckle dragging KKK hicks who hate islam because most of its followers are them brown people. We all know the KKK types just hate brown people and whatever they believe in. So is that true? No, we know it's not true, though, we do on occasion get these types of people as members but they are discovered quickly and their presence is blocked. Likewise we know a movement like the EDL will get the pro Nazi and the bigots who hate brown people who happen to be not only muslims but Sikh, Hindus, Buddhists, and animists. They hate them all. We also know according to the leader Tommy these people are not welcomed as members and when discovered are kicked out.
No movement or party including the democrat party who once had racist bigots as member is perfect. We can't let a few bad members ruin a movement.

Sashland, the Baron and Dymphna at Gates of Vienna already have "got to the bottom of this." All Spencer and Geller have to do is access the posts at GoV and those of Lawrence Auster and adjust their behavior accordingly.

Simply, Geller made severe, unsubstantiated claims about an important counter-jihad organization. It has turned out the charges she made were false, and she has not yet fully acknowledged her egregious journalistic error and attempted to set the matter right. Spencer, by uncritically parroting Geller, has damaged his own, otherwise substantial and well-earned, reputation.

Mr. Spencer, u have bigger cahoonas then I thought. After repeatedly being exposed as an inefficient and fradulent academic, racist and flat out LYER u still have the balls to keep this disgraceful circus going. How much money does aipac give u and Pam geller on a monthly? Just curious

It is my understanding that the accusations are Roberta Moore's, not Geller's.

You're right, if Geller made a journalistic error she should apologize, but that turns on what actually lies behind the Moore situation. Geller believed Moore's claims and reacted; I tend to be cautious and slow to believe accusations. I checked your links but don't find anything definitive, so I'll withhold judgement for now.

Yet, you can get a feel for the challenge we ALL face when you get a wiff of that stench some creature dropped between our comments. You and I both know who the Real enemies are...

I always thought Spencer/Geller's support for the EDL was a little too hasty. Geller saw an anti-jihad movement and jumped to its support.

In my view, Israeli flags were used at the first EDL demos to counter accusations of being BNP/NF leftovers and to provoke the watching jihadis in Birmingham and other demo cities.

Many of the rank and file EDL demo attendees/forum users/division members got involved with the EDL for reasons nothing to do with Israel. These were people concerned by the changing nature of their home towns and the inability of the government/police to deal with jihad-supporters openly strutting their stuff on the streets - especially during troop home-coming parades. The EDL was a voice for those white, working-classes who felt abandoned by the political class.

Roberta Moore invited ex-JDL members (convicted of violent offences in the US) to speak - and quite rightly, in my view, many EDL members objected. Campaigning against Islamic terrorists, they were uncomfortable with the invitation to anyone convicted of blowing up cars. That's where it all started. Perhaps this winkled out the closet anti-semites in the rank and file. But to object to the invitation was to be labelled an 'anti-semite'.

As the EDL nears implosion over this sorry and boring saga, who do the rank-and-file blame? An ultra-Zionist, pushy individual who had an openly disparaging and patronising view of said rank-and-file. They see their street-movement hijacked and now lying in tatters due to the lunatic behaviour of the Jewish Division: more fuel for any lurking anti-semites.

One other thing: did Geller ever go to a football (soccer to our US cousins) match in the UK in the 1980s - early 90s? Has she been in the pubs on EDL demo day or on the coaches? No, thought not. Had she done, she might have thought twice about throwing her unconditional support behind the EDL.

I'm an Englishman, a lifelong Israel supporter with family in that country, an anti-jihadi, a jihadwatch reader for years, an EDL follower from the start/forum user/demo attender (not recently, however) - and I say Roberta Moore has caused all this trouble. Good riddance to her.



Go away, mahoundian. Your demon-god "allah" and his mini-demon messenger mahound wouldn't like you associating with the WINNING SIDE - THE GLORIOUS INFIDEL WORLD which you exploit while advocating a savage, primitve tribal fascist poligion. Scoot before I get out the can of Raid!

Let's face it, there is a vast amount of anti-Semitism on both the left and right these days.

Any credible movement against Islamization of Europe will need to continually purge fascists and anti-Semites from its ranks.

In order to succeed, the movement will have to attract tens of millions of Europeans who (like me !!!!) identify themselves explicitly as progressives (but not leftists).

This means shedding a lot of unnecessary and destructive baggage like climate change denial, rants about how feminism is destroying the fabric of our civilization, etc. etc.

The best way to purge the specter of anti-Semitism is by relentlessly educating yourselves and the public on the importance of Jewish culture for European civilization, the overt fascist and Nazi character of Islamism, and the urgency of defending Israel.

The left-right paradigm has long since been exhausted as a functioning ideological construct.

It seems to me that the EDL is a very positive model for the kind of organization that might arise from the chaotic, disoriented rubble of a defunct left-right politics.

The difficulty of the situation is as follows:

how do you create a broad-based movement based on a minimal consensus (combat the Islamization of Europe, end mass immigration from the Muslim and third worlds) without splintering into 1000 shards over ideological litmus tests?

In this particular instance, the tactical consideration is really quite elementary:

Purging fascists from the EDL should probably have taken place as far away from the floodlights as possible, because any public denunciation plays into the hands of the political establishment, which has been characterized the deal as a gang of Nazi thugs from the very beginning.

The anti-Islamization movement on both sides of the Atlantic should waste as little time as possible defending itself from charges of racism, xenophobia, etc. etc.

The appropriate tactic is to CHANGE THE SUBJECT, turning the tables by drilling home the message that Islamic civilization is intrinsically totalitarian, that Muslims have a long history of association with European fascism.

A series of high-profile EDL actions in defense of Israel and of the European Jewish community would be a great first step.

I agree with much of what you say. I also support Israel 100%.

However, I think what a lot of people seem to be forgetting is that the EDL is the *ENGLISH* Defence League. We're mostly concerned with the islamification of *England*. The English, on the whole, are a very insular race - if you look at the forum, the number of commenters on the threads for jihadist activity *overseas*, is miniscule/nonexistent, compared to the number of commenters on EDL matters !

I read and comment on the forum fairly regularly, and I can honestly say I have *never* read any posts that were anti-semitic. I *have* read posts that were impatient of those who sought to bring *every* topic under the umbrella of Zionism; that is not anti-semitic !

I still admire Ms Geller and Mr Spencer very much - however in this instance I think they are mistaken. Ms Geller supported her friend immediately and unthinkingly, and Mr Spencer then equally unthinkingly supported Ms Geller - neither of them have produced one shred of evidence for their assertions, merely the word of Ms Moore. Loyalty is a wonderful quality, but unthinking loyalty can be dangerous.

I think Ms Geller and Mr Spencer should admit they went off at half cock, without any evidence - everyone makes mistakes !

Any patriotic, nationalist organisation is vulnerable to infiltration from racists and neo-nazis - *if* there is ever any evidence of these people in the EDL, they will be immediately dealt with.

Zilla

"SHOW ME where Pamela or Robert said any such thing that people should leave the EDL, go ahead and try, you won't be able to because you are ignorantly just making stuff up."

Ha ha. Others on here have already pointed out where Pamela urged people to leave the EDL. It would seem that you are the one ignorantly making stuff up.


"Did you even READ Pamela's or Robert's posts? Or are you just knee jerking to the slander contained in that detestable "Open letter" tripe? I read Pamela's posts, and Robert's, about this, in no place to they tell ANYONE to "leave the EDL"."

You may have read what they wrote, but apparently you didn't read it very well. And yes, I've read 3 postings on atlas shrugs on this issue and what, 3 postings on this site? Are there others I should've read by either Pamela or Spencer? And obviously I've read them more attentively than you have, since you havent read them urging people to leave the EDL.

But it's quite amusing that the one thing you object to in my comment is this. I guess you're fine with everything else? Terrorists? Not a problem! Racists? Not a problem! Homophobes? Not a problem! Tearing up the Universal declaration of human rights? Not a problem! - as long as it's the "right people" being or doing it...

Regards

The insignificant fuhrer at littlebrowncrapstains is shrieking with infantile delight on this issue.

However, originally the EDL was nothing but an idea to create a website with the sole purpose of calling ANYONE to challenge any TRAITOR who hassled military funeral attendees. Duh! Do you need an ideology to challenge those pigs? It is unfortunate that the upshot of this, might be that muslims and crapstainers would take license to take their protests against mourners, to a violent level.

Someone needs to defend England from the enemy.

"Real Jew" hater.

You wrote: "Roberta Moore invited ex-JDL members (convicted of violent offences in the US) to speak - and quite rightly, in my view, many EDL members objected."

If true, I agree with you. "elitist" (July 2, 2011 2:25 AM) wrote: "Any credible movement against Islamization of Europe will need to continually purge fascists and anti-Semites from its ranks."

If EDL has some kind of membership arrangement, then the leadership needs to have definitive ground rules for members within the movement. There needs to be a well-written pledge for new members, forbidding racism, anti-Semitism and any other form of racial or ethnic bigotry. I would add a prohibition of religious bigotry with the proviso that anti-Islamization is not or should not be based on religious bigotry (bigotry meaning an 'intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own'). Pledges can be controversial. I learned first hand in my years of political activism but there needs to be certain fundamentals upon which the members of any successful movement or organization can agree. The "big (philosophical) tent" concept is a non-starter.

Mark Gardner & CST do stunning work and have been at it a lo9ng time, which is why I am so upset the EDL has run foul of them. I would prefer Mark Gardner helped the EDL instead of damning them.

If I may I would like to suggest a organizational example for the anti-jihadis/anti-islamists.

No matter how you feel about their particular agenda, you can never deny their effectiveness in the world of US politics.

Operate like the National Rifle Association. Focus like a laser on the particular issues. Do not become involved in any sidebar issues. Support those politicians who support you. Advise your membership of those politicians who do not support your organizations goals. Mobilize voters at election time. Teach your young the difference between western liberty and islamic slavery. Oppose as a organization the proposals of politicians that are counter to your goals and don't be afraid to ask your members to contact those politicians.

I'm sure there are people who hate Israel in the NRA. I'm equally sure that there are people who support Israel in the NRA. No matter. Neither group is provided a forum for these views by the NRA.

Have the discipline it takes to run a organization that effectively opposes the normalization of islam and sharia and seeks to roll back the advances they have made in recent years.

When a substantial number of politicians start to lose elections and attribute that loss at least in part to the efforts of your organization things will begin to change.

Quit trying to operate like a political party and start building a well organized, well funded and disciplined in its goals grass roots pressure group.

Whether the EDL can accomplish this or if it takes another organization remains to be seen

You wrote: "I'm sure there are people who hate Israel in the NRA. I'm equally sure that there are people who support Israel in the NRA. No matter. Neither group is provided a forum for these views by the NRA...."


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I don't think the NRA comparison works. Tea Party might be a better one. Little doubt there are people who hate Israel in the NRA. NRA has no relation to foreign policy or racial or religious tolerance or intolerance, the way political / societal activist movements might or should have. Because the Jews are a central theme in the Qur'an, in Islamic history, culture and literature, as are Christians (both people of the book), these themes cannot be ignored by any anti-jihadist movement or organization. Furthermore, because of their augmented profile, we see much scrutiny by the media, by interested activists and organizations, over every word and action on the part of Spencer and Geller. They cannot afford to be associated with or linked to groups or persons espousing anti-Semitism. Anti-Zionism (hatred of Israel) is the new anti-Semitism, make no mistake about it.

The great irony in all this is the basic fact that their are anti semites, pro NAZI, anti hindu/buddhist / sikhs people in almost all the leftist and muslim organizations.
if you were to rid these people from these organizations there would be no members left. How about the ever eager media exposing thee leftists/fascists/muslim groups?

Geller is quite capable of going off the deep end. Recall that late last summer there was an anti-Mosque demonstration in lower Manhattan that was denounced by Pamela; a denunciation quickly parroted by Robert Spencer. Why? - Because it was not THEIR demonstration. So they tarred it as being somehow "racist" and disrespectable despite that fact that they had some very well respected speakers such as Frank Gaffney. I would suggest that we stop looking for Nazis under the bed. Real Nazis and other anti-Semites are very soft on and even supportive of the Islamists.

for goodness sake stop this NOW.
Charles Johnson of LGF managed to alienate everyone and BARRED pretty well everyone with international credentials on the islamisation subject - including JW and GoV.
LGF was once an ally but is now a damp squib and so USELESS

The ONE thing we do not need is internicene battles. The islamists will LOVE it - divide and rule.
JW may not like Ned May and GoV and vice versa but the fact is that you both approach the same threat but from different perspectives - BOTH of which are right.
Whatever PERSONAL animosity you both have should not be an issue - IF that is you are both genuine in your anti-islamist stance. Ego should not be an issue and I castigate you all for sinking to the personal or allowing others to do that.
As an indigenous Englishman I believe that I have more right to comment on the EDL than either Pamela Geller or Robert Spencer or Baron Boddisey. Currently I am not a member but watch with admiration.
And YES I have experienced internal strife. It stopped me, for 30 years, from getting involved in local committees because I knew what would happen. When I relaxed that view, got involved, did masses of work, I suddenly found that the situation was now worse and that people who had had no involvement suddenly seemed to want to claim the credit. I opted out and the project failed. THEY wanted the kudos but esre totally incapable of delivering. Might that be Roberta Moore?
EDL is always described in the press as "far right". As one who worked for nearly 30 years with politicians I really cannot see that. They seem to me to be largely one purpose and very moderate. and YES I did qualify at degree level in comparative politics, inter alia.
It would seem that the EDL has, like pretty well every other organisation, had some internal political problems.
From my initial reading they seem to have been caused by Roberta Moore but I shall await further clarification before treading that path.
Unfortunately Pamela Geller was less cautious and waded in with biased opinion before fact. Just like the copper who presumes guilt before discovering that the alibi is indeed copper plated.
Now I admire Pamela and this departure from common sense I must attribute to an unusual and temporary lapse. I hope so.
I trust that she, and Robert, will apologise if the facts show that the outburst was totally unjustified.

Ahem....

"I hope that genuine anti-jihadists in Britain will also leave the EDL and work with Roberta on starting a new group that will resist definitively and firmly all attempts to divert it from its mission of fighting against jihad and for human rights."

I agree entirely with sashland. And to me this is all forgiveable, a family fight. If people stop name calling it can all be to the good. I fully support the EDL and I see no reason not to. I still have not seen any evidence that the EDL leadership or admin are what they have been accused of, but from what I've read and links I've followed, it appears Roberta Moore has some dangerous and unsuitable bedfellows, not the EDL itself. As Pamela Geller's 'evidence' appears to come from this direction, then her resignation from the EDL is a problem solved. As far as I can make out there is some question as to whether there is a need for a Jewish Division. In my opinion 'divisions' are just that, and I am a fervent supporter of Israel, so much so that I post on the issue more than anything else. Sometimes I can't sleep at night worrying about Israel and Jews in Europe and the ME. And if Israel goes down we do too. But 'divisions' such as the Jewish Division are an invite for anyone who wants to build their own agenda, or infiltrate and split the movement. There is no need for Jewish or gay or any kind of divisions. All genuine anti jihad movements support Israel without the need for this. So let's get rid. Problem solved.

I support both the EDL and also Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer. But I believe they, Geller and Spencer, have been had, they've been rash, and they were wrong. Deeply, tragically wrong and there's a poignancy in that for me. All it takes is an open recognition of that and hopefully an apology. And I don't know of Roberta Moore. I'd seen her name mentioned previously to this regarding the original spat, and I could be wrong but from what I've read all the name calling seemed to be coming from her and her supporters. I still haven't seen any evidence of her or Pamela's claims. Nor does Tommy Robinson's statement affirm what Pamela says it does, referring to 'fringe' elements.

At the end of the day EDL leadership needs to be less opaque. There needs to be more stringent monitoring of fringe elements on demonstrations too, which is true of all anti jihad movements. This is a good opportunity for that to happen.

Pamela, I admired your support for the EDL. As someone who converses regularly with quite a few of their members I have every faith in them. Their real problem is class prejudice. When ordinary working people speak up for themselves (as opposed to being spoken for by socialists) they are 'knuckle draggers'. Note the assumption, particularly from the teacher dominated ranks of the UAF, that they have not been educated. This bigotry goes so deep it's difficult to surmount and that's why I admired Pamela's support for them. But let's be clear. If we're going to judge people on class, the working class is not and never has been the underclass, though members of the latter may tag along to EDL marches.

I held back and observed the EDL for a good year before I threw my support behind them, because personally I suspected they were a left wing front, which I have always believed, and still do, is the case with the BNP.

The BNP is a racist nationalist group, with a very left wing manifesto. They have however drawn support, due to desperation, from many ordinary decent people who have nowhere else to turn. Some of those members have also seen something to support in the EDL, but from what I've observed find it difficult to fit in because they've been infected by the BNP mindset. Some, not all. Perhaps not even most. That is inevitable. The bottom line is not all BNP members are racists. They're just too stupid to realise that the BNP are LEFT WING. The bottom line is the EDL are not, never have been,racist or anti Semitic. And some people were too eager to believe that, despite having been victims of it themselves. The question is why? If it's not class prejudice, someone needs to help me out here.

Those who name call and over-react, those who accuse in the first place such as Roberta Moore, scatter rather than gather. So a few hot heads have been outed. It'll blow over. But it'll only blow over if the honesty and transparency comes out of this and due apologies are made on all sides. Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer were wrong, produced no evidence. GoV rightly pointed this out, but then stooped to name calling which I thought was divisive, negative and way over the top. However I believe its signatories were merely agreeing there was no evidence for the claims made against the EDL. This doesn't have to turn into a bun fight.

In my opinion the only ones to come out of this with integrity are the EDL minus the Jewish Divsion and Tommy Robinson. If Geller and Spencer form a better understanding of EDL and a more transparent and trusting relationship with its leadership from this mistake then that can only be a good thing.

My 2 cents on the conclusion of the above apologia:

"There is a struggle for the soul of the EDL. Which side do you come down on?"

While there's indeed a "fraternal" struggle among CJ's in the blogosphere, the soul of the EDL is in the streets of Luton. That's where the real struggle is and that's where I stand.

Deliberante Senatu, Saguntum periit

Take care,
Sag.

Something from the *other* author whom I enjoyed as a teenager.

"The laughter of Mordor will be our only reward if we quarrel".


The schemers of the Ummah are eerily swift to perceive and exploit and exacervate pre-existing divisions within the camp of the non-Muslims, and also very clever at creating new ones. 'Splitting the camp' of the Infidels is something Muslims have been masters of, for 1400 years. Because they know that when and if we *do* unite against them, they're done for.

Sorry. Unclear grammar, and typo: too late in the evening, time for me to shut down the computer and go sleep.

First sentence makes more sense if it says - 'Something from an English author whom I enjoyed as a teenager'.

And in the third sentence, it should be 'exacerbate', not' exacervate'...ooops.

Cogently reasoned, and comprehensive.

I agree with every word but one - the UAF are mainly teachers ? I've always thought they were a bunch of scruffy professional students, with cognitive issues.

As a teacher myself, (although about to retire) I *loathe* the pathetic and pimply waffers, and *many* teachers agree with me. We're not *all* lefty losers, although I admit to my chagrin, too many of us are !

"While there's indeed a "fraternal" struggle among CJ's in the blogosphere, the soul of the EDL is in the streets of Luton. That's where the real struggle is and that's where I stand."

That really is so true, which is why I said I found this whole thing poignant.

But there is no struggle for the soul of the EDL. There is a need for more transparent leadership is all. No way is the EDL racist, anti Semitic or 'nazi' any more than your average working person in the UK. But we have few voices speaking for us in the UK. The only high profile journalist I can think of who regularly fights on this issue is Melanie Phillips, who of course is reviled by the mainstream. We have no Pamela Gellers or Robert Spencers or Allen Wests. We have no talk radio.

The EDL are ON THEIR OWN and they are vilified, not for anything they actually stand for, nor for anything they have done, but because they stand alone against the most vicious enemy we have ever faced - an alliance of Islam and the Left.

If anyone would take the trouble to look up what Tommy Robinson and his family have been put through they would, if they were decent, feel physically sick. He has had his home invaded many times, his business computers taken, by the people who are meant to protect us from criminals. He has been dragged to court like a criminal again and again. When was the last time Robert Spencer was arrested,his home invaded, his children traumatised, his belongings ransacked? Do Pamela and Robert have Islamists living right on their dootstep, passing their place of work every day in a crowded English town where their children go to school, as is the case with many in the EDL? Tommy Robinson has now been banned from attending a political event for 10 years. He was barred from entering the US.

The violence which goes on at left wing demonstrations is appalling and truly criminal. The press are always at pains to point out on their behalf that these are 'fringe elements' with 'no connection'. Always there are more arrests of UAF activists. Unlike the EDL they really are thugs. And yet the EDL can't put a foot right. They need and deserve the whole hearted support of everyone in this war. We can't afford to lose.

The EDL are brave and decent British people - not all English but like me (Irish) born and bred here and our parents too - who are standing alone not just against Islamists and cross eyed, head tossing leftists, but against the whole British media and establishment. I think they deserve our respect and our support, and a whole lot more.

"...I agree with every word but one - the UAF are mainly teachers ? I've always thought they were a bunch of scruffy professional students, with cognitive issues..."

Yes but I said 'teacher dominated'. Who recruits the 'professional students'? And of the teachers who aren't head tossing Marxists, which teachers speak up for what teachers' unions do in their name, which is pursue radical Marxist agendas not just in education but in many aspects of British political life?

Winnie -

You wrote (in reaction to my 2 euro cts; probably worth about 1.5 euro cts tomorrow):

"But there is no struggle for the soul of the EDL."

Indeed there isn't.
And, just to be sure and 100% clear on this, when I referred to the streets of Luton, where the real struggle is taking place, I obviously meant the struggle by the EDL to rid this town - and allow me to expand beyond its borders at bit - or indeed all of our towns and cities throughout the entire West, of this parasitical and violent ideology of Islam and all of its carriers.

Take care.

Kind regs from Amsterdam,
Sag

Hi Pdxnag, I'm not sure your suggested approach is right.

I think the proper thing to do is to stick it out with such an organization, warts and all, and try to help the real leadership in any way possible.

What is going on in the EDL is a microcosm of what is going on in Britain with respect to Islamization.

If Tommy Robinson can't deal with the radical infiltrators in the organization he leads; how can anyone ever think that he is going to be able to deal with the Muslim infiltrators within British society?

So, he must be given time and whatever reasonable help is available to prove that he has the will and the power to clean house.

If he successfully defends the EDL then he will have proved that he is the right choice to lead the EDL in its goal to defend Britain from the threat of Islamization.

On the other hand, if Robinson loses this fight then your suggestion of abandoning the EDL is correct.

I suspect I will get crapped on for saying this but I think maybe the exit of Roberta Moore was no great loss for the EDL.

I hold her to the same standard as I hold Robinson.

If she is unwilling or unable to fight the 'lesser Jihad' within the organization in which she was a leader, how can she ever be trusted to fight the 'greater jihad' to which the EDL has committed itself.

It feels to me as though she abandoned the Jewish contingent within EDL to the anti-Semites and neo-Nazis within that organization. If so, she doesn't come across as leadership material.

Winnie -

I noticed (or in fact, someone else did, who was a notable commenter over here) that you wrote the following:

"Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer were wrong, produced no evidence. GoV rightly pointed this out, but then stooped to name calling which I thought was divisive, negative and way over the top."

Where did you see that name calling? Surely not in the open letter I reckon?

Take care,
Sag.

Robert,
Allow me to say that I am a great admirer of the work that you have done and are continuing to do. My recollection of the anti-Mosque demonstration last year was that Ms. Geller and yourself did not simply say that you were not the organizers but that you, in fact, went beyond that with some sharp criticisms. But I admit that it is possible that my recollection is wrong, and if so I apologize.

However, it is a little over the top to refer to "you people" and "your side". I am not a member of some conspiracy. I don't have a hidden microwave receiver giving me marching orders and I don't have a secret decoder ring. The opinions expressed were strictly my own and while I may be mistaken I do not intentionally lie.
Peace,
RBLA

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What they’re saying about Robert Spencer
“My comrade-in-arms, my pal, my buddy.”
Oriana Fallaci

“Robert Spencer incarnates intellectual courage when, all over the world, governments, intellectuals, churches, universities and media crawl under a hegemonic Universal Caliphate’s New Order. His achievement in the battle for the survival of free speech and dignity of man will remain as a fundamental monument to the love of, and the self-sacrifice for, liberty.”
Bat Ye’or

“Robert Spencer is indefatigable. He is keeping up the good fight long after many have already given up. I do not know what we would do without him. I appreciate all the intelligence and courage it takes to keep going despite the appeasement of the West.”
Ibn Warraq

“America's most informed, fearless, and compelling voice on modern jihadism.”
Andrew C. McCarthy, Senior Fellow at National Review Institute

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Pamela Geller, Atlas Shrugs

"The consummate Islam critic and expert." — Bruce Bawer

“Over the years, we have become friends, and I have received his assistance on several pieces of legislation I proposed.”
Former Congressman Tom Tancredo

“Few people are capable of applying scholarship, analytical reasoning, and objectivity to their topic -- while simultaneously being readable and witty -- as can Robert Spencer.”
Raymond Ibrahim

“A national treasure...The acclaimed scholar of Islam.”
Frank Gaffney, Center for Security Policy

“I am indeed honored to call him my friend.”
Brad Thor, novelist

“A top American analyst of Islam....A serious scholar...I learn from him.”
Daniel Pipes

“A brilliant scholar and writer.”
Douglas Murray

"One of my best teachers."
Ashraf Ramelah, Voice of the Copts

“Thank God there’s at least one man with balls left in the West.”
Kathy Shaidle, Five Feet of Fury

“I read people like [Mark Steyn] and Bob Spencer and the rest of them, and I say, ‘Boortz, you’re pretending you’re an author. These people really are. They really write some entertaining, some standup stuff.’”
Neal Boortz

“Robert Spencer is the Stephen King of Jihad.”
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“Armed with facts and fearlessness, Spencer stands up for Western civilization.”
Michelle Malkin

“Widely read in conservative foreign policy circles.”
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“Widely read in many quarters in Washington.”
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“A canny operative who likely has the inside track on the State Department’s Middle East affairs desk should the tea party win the White House.”
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"Geller and Spencer are probably the most important propagandizing Islamophobes in the world. These people's voices speak very loudly — not just here in the United States but overseas."
Heidi Beirach, Southern Poverty Law Center

“Satanic ignoramus.”
Khaleel Mohammed

“The Likud anti-Christ.”
Dar al-Hayat newspaper (Saudi Arabia)

“Zionist Crusader, missionary of hate, counter-Islam consultant.”
Al-Qaeda’s Adam Gadahn, “Azzam the American”



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