This calls for some champagne: A second Iranian nuclear facility has exploded

I'm not sure what to make of your comment.........whether or not it is condescending. I hope Israel DID do it. They seem to be the only country with the cojones to do anything having to do with preventing Iran from getting nuclear weapons. Please elaborate.

Ima

I guess I just deal with facts, and they are:
1. Iran has never threatened to "wipe Israel off the map". In fact, that quote was completely wrong and if you listen to what they say, they oppose the Zionist regime. We oppose all kinds of regimes around the world, does Iran not possess the innate right to make its own foreign policy?
2. Iran hasn't attacked another countries in 100 years. Their leadership isn't crazy, they know launching a nuke would be political suicide. Once you get away from the ignorant American view, you realize that IRan is actually a pretty sophisticated political player, pursuing their interests.
3. Containment works - We did it to the Soviets, we do it to North Korea - why haven't we attacked them? We can contain Iran. As well, a significant number of other countries are going to gain nuclear capability, what are we going to do, invade them all?

If Iran had blown up a nuclear facility inside of Israel, what would be Israel's reaction? Would the U.S. not protest? How come it's okay for Israel to do the same? Why do Americans even have a dog in this fight? I don't care who wins - Jew, Muslim - as long as they leave us alone. You want to do something special for Jews, fine, give them all political asylum here, but don't waste our treasure and blood supporting an ancient land claim that is no interest o ours, and has cost us our standing throughout the Arab and Muslim worlds. It's not worth it, and it's not in our interests - which is the only legitimate business of our govt in the first place.

While there was some controversy as to the correct translation of Ahmedinejad's statement, his own spokesmen repeatedly confirmed that he had said that Israel should be annihilated. That would seem to settle the matter. Furthermore, although at times Ahmedinejad denies that his government intends aggression against Israel and pretends moderation by claiming that Israel will self-destruct, his government more-or-less openly supports Hizbollah, a group open committed to the annihilation of Israel, and street mobs in Iran, a country with little freedom of speech, routinely call for the destruction of Israel and death of Jews. Ahmedinejad may not be willing to commit to a direct attack on Israel, but it is clear what he would like to do, and a nuclear Iran would constitute an unacceptable risk to Israel.

Chupacabras? Bigfoot? Exploding mice?

No, but be careful with those conspiracy theories. It's those damned Israeli squirrels.
You just don't know… they're everywhere!

Exactly. HE's done got him some surrogates runnin' around, doesn't HE! I dont care if lassie digs up an old unexploded munition as long as it works. Quote the country prophet-poet---"GITTER DONE"!

Wow. So thats how it happened. Wonder how they got the video of the event out so soon?

You're a clown!

Israel hasn't attacked anyone. The victim, Israel, threatened with extinction by Ahmadina-jihad has simply defended herself. She has simply defended herself against attacks for 3,000 years.
Israel has never, but never, initiated an attack on anyone.

And as a bonus point: The Russians have probably had internet contact with the Iranians over the years in their attempt to help them build their nuclear weapon capability. And we all know how Stuxnet just loves to hurtle through cyberspace and lodge itself in weapons systems that are connected to each other. What would you bet that the Russians are up to their necks in Stuxnet, too?

No wonder the Israelis can smile nonchalantly when Medvedev makes thinly veiled threats about taking decisive action if the Israelis try to defend themselves from attacks.

Go Israel!!

All you haters - I'm clear as a bell. I'll try and simplify one fact for you, perhaps facts will affect one of you. In the 60 Minutes interview of Ahmadinejad, he did not say he wanted to "wipe Israel off the map". Do a google search on this, you'll find video that 60 Minutes released later of the entire interview. What Ahmadinejad is saying is very clear. He want to get rid of the Zionist regime that runs Israel - just as Israel and the U.S. want to be rid of him.

Iran deeply opposes Zionism - just like every other Arab or Muslim country in the region. They find that fact that only the U.S. and Israel fail to acknowledge and deal with the fact that Israel ethnically cleansed 650,000 Arab muslims out of their homes in Palestine between '47-'49 disgusting.

Now it's also true that Islamism is very pernicious. Whether it's the Mulsim Brotherhood or the Iranians, I get it. I'm no apologists for Islamism, and in fact it is a very real threat that we need to deal with. But compared to say the threat of the Soviet Union, it almost doesn't register on the same scale. Yes, we should kill militants who are trying to kill us where ever they are. But to lump Iran into this pile is simply ignorant. Iran has a series of complaints against the U.S. - starting with Mousabek and our arming of Saddam Hussein against them, at the cost of 1 million Iranian lives. This is what they are angry about, they are not crazy.

What's really going on here is we are drumming up fear and hate to we can do Israel's bidding. Let me be clear. The security of Israel is not a national security interest of the U.S. You want to "support" them? Do so with your own money and blood. Any military action against Iran is unnecessary to preserve our security and I think will only make us targets of more attacks and less secure.

To further clarify, I don't see the Zionist cause as morally superior to the claims of the Islamists. It's a religious, land war and as such, both sides are wrong. You see, when you start taking your orders from a non-existent God, you can make up anything you want and righteously justify it. And if you don't think radical Zionists are just as violent, just as immoral as the Islamists, well you've never seen video of the actions of "settlers" in the Palestinian territories. Wake up, get a clue. War with Iran is insane and unnecessary.

any person who think iran is not the aggressor here needs to really asses their own thinking.. when wiki leaks leaked out.. who where the arab states afraid of was it Israel or iran.... they all were threatened by iran.. and iran is the one who goes on attacking the US, Israel.. and other Western powers like the UK that stand up to these bullies! here is a
hint to use your ;common sense, where would you like to vacation, live etc.. iran or Israel!!!

@nabiZK (pbuy)

Excellent response to glennd1.

Your comments, while always intelligent, are also so funny. Keep 'em coming!

Buraq....

Factually, of course, your statement that "Israel has never, but never, initiated an attack on anyone", is incorrect. The most obvious example would be the "Six-day War", where Israel's defence was to attack, initially Egypt, then all the other would-be Arab-Aggressors. There are many other incidences where the Israeli's have taken this kind of initiative; ranging from small incursions to the air-raids into Syrian territory, Lebanon, et al, to name but a few. Not that i blame them, either. In my personal experience, attack has been my first line of defence and devastating it was too. If one knows one is about to 'get it' one should 'give it'. As was Israeli-logic in '67. Unfortunately, for me, my initiative didn't stand in a court of (UK) law and i ended-up being charged with attempted-murder! Fortunately, for me, witnesses were able to corroborate the threat i must've percieved at the time and i got off with a fine. Yet i was the real victim! Parallel's can be drawn here.

Also, you say Israel has been "defending" itself for "3,000 years". Is this really so? 'Israel', as we know it, was founded in 1947-8, before then it was the diaspora's pipe-dream/promised-land(apparently not too many Israeli's and their school-children are aware of this!). So it's hardly a "fact" unless, of course, you're speaking metaphorically.

'glennd1' has the mind-set of many, many westerners who are totally pissed-off with the whole islam/West scenario; a clash, ultimately, of differing and dithering, religious as well as political, ideologies.

Leave them be, whether it's Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, to their own devices. Let them try to survive in their own mess so the folly of their ways is apparent and beyond deniability. Islam is in meltdown, eating itself from within. Its militantism, its laws, the way it conducts itself on the world-stage is pure scape-goating to deflect attention away from its own glaring inadequacies, hence islam's history of in-fighting and the current "Arab Spring", which is about to become a long, hard 'Arab Fall'. There will be a clash of 'civilisations', eventually, once the pussy-footing has drawn to a close. It'll take some time yet but the seeds of destiny are already sown. Fruition will bring a new-order to this beautiful world. Reason and humanism will prevail.

For the record, i'm no dhimmi, anti-semite or CLOWN. And don't act like some one-eyed man in the kingdom of the blind.

But i do have a red-nose and strange sense of dress....

You wrote: Factually, of course, your statement that "Israel has never, but never, initiated an attack on anyone", is incorrect.

But it is correct! From early 1965 to the Six-Day War in June 1967, the PLO through Fatah pursued a consistent policy of border attacks, particularly along the Jordanian and Lebanese borders. Criticism of these activities by the Arab governments and by local public opinion persuaded Fatah leaders to adopt a new approach known as “the entanglement theory.” This involved using sabotage to force Israel to adopt an offensive position, which in turn would force the Arabs to step up their military preparedness. This cycle of action-retaliation-reaction would lead to a gradual escalation of tension on the borders, and eventually to the Six Day War in 1967.

In 1965, 35 terrorist raids were conducted against Israel. In 1966, the number increased to 41. In just the first four months of 1967, 37 attacks were launched.

So, Israel was defending herself from constant attacks - much like the 8,000 rocket attacks by Hamas that led to the defensive incursion by the IDF into Gaza a few years back.

Israel has never, but never, attacked a neighbor! She has always been on the defense.

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1948to1967_sixday_backgd.php

You lie.

The Islamic Republic of Iran wants Israel gone. Kill the Jews. Since the days of Khomeini. There are no "misleading translations".

Read the texts: What Iran's leaders say (Farsi, transcript, English):

1. http://www.jcpa.org/text/ahmadinejad2-words.pdf

2. http://www.meforum.org/2167/iran-genocidal-incitement-israel

Check the pictures:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-hnS4NpaUe5Y/To10AI2JHBI/AAAAAAAAE0o/11foe8nRPUM/s1600/wipe+off+face+world.jpg

http://www.cedarsrevolution.net/jtphp/images/stories/Lebanon/Intelligence/Iranian-Shihab-Missile-sm.jpg (Banner on side of Shahab-3 Missile says: Israel should be wiped out of the face of the world.)

http://kamangir.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/israel_ahmadinejad.jpg

http://www.engageonline.org.uk/blog/images/1205826451sa.jpg

http://kamangir.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/the_world_without_zionism_ahmadinejad_s.jpg

http://israelipalestinian.procon.org/files/IsPal%20Images/iran_ahmadinejad_2.jpg

Take note: Some come from Hisb'Allah, the Iranian shiite proxy in Lebanon.

glennd1....

You're up against it here. There are those who, when true history throws-up some genuine counter-arguments, will choose to ignore the factual-realities that throw light on the "Why's and Wherefor's" that brought the world into this mess in the first place. It's all about a conscious, collective and selective denial with fallacy and falsehood thrown in. Reason and truth goes out of the window; posters attempt to qualify their assumptions as fact by the most spurious means, i guess you've noticed this hysterical trend. There are "haters" on this site, no doubt and extremely unfortunate. Their arguments become tedious and tendentious, re-iterations that shore-up and sustain their hatred. The god(s)delusion also permeates here, often reducing an otherwise stimulating thread to sectarian name-calling and at once stultifying the essence. I personally believe that many articulate, intelligent contributors have deserted JW for exactly these reasons. Anyone can visit JW and sometimes, when i see and hear the tone of some of the posters, wonder how many otherwise sympathetic viewers have been discouraged by the "haters", never to visit again.

I hope you're not put off posting your thoughts. Constructive criticism is vital here and the main aim is information and discussion not blinkered bigotry.

Robert Spenser's postings are lucid and necessary in raising the questions on islam and keeping issues in the public's eye. I wonder sometimes if he cringes at the more blatant hate-mongers who comment after his postings. These people can cast a shadow over an otherwise poignant piece of work.

Wait for it....

Why should Israel fear a counter-attack over a explosion the Iranian government denies ever happened? If the explosion never happened, wouldn't a strike by the Iranians constitute naked aggression by the Iranian regime?

Simple logic indicates that the Iranians cannot simultaneously claim there was no explosion,and therefore no attack by Israel on Iran, and then take retaliatory action against Israel for the strike the Iranians claim never happened.

Even the Iranians aren't fools enough to argue that absurdity.

Unless of course theres a absurd command in the absurd koran for support. Then its reason be damned.

Tim -

While I don't find myself in agreement with glennd1's assertions, I do agree with your general point that people over here at JW should engage in meaningful exchanges and value intelligent differences of opinion.

I sometimes feel as if the JW forum is slowly becoming a platform from which the duopolistic, bipartisan US foreign policy is to be cheered on. I prefer the schooling aspect, which includes schooling each and every politician about Islam (not "Islamism", "radical Islam" or what have you), and it should be irrespective of political affiliation.

Kind regs from Amsterdam,
Sag

Sir,

Choosing to reprimand JW posters/haters, instead of dispelling what you have charectarized as fallacies and falsehoods, is in itself hateful. Your comment may have been better recieved, if you would have posted it on SPLC hate watch blog.

Respectfully,
Domenick

Inshallah.

Why should we care about "our standing throughout the Arab and Muslim worlds" ?

glennd1: your equivocating Islamism and Zionism does not work for me, and I am an outsider to any of these religions.

To put it simply Zionism does threaten my life as Judaism is NOT supersessionist. (Why shouldn't they have a Jewish state?) But Islam does. The notion of "God's chosen" speaks to their responsibility, not their rights to subjugate others. Islam claims superiority and mandates its followers to fight the non believers. Zionism leaves me alone: Islamism does not.

"Zionism leaves me alone: Islamism does not."

That is the most concise and clear-cut way I've seen the matter been put into perspective in a long time! Thank you @SISAC for your contribution.

Take care and kind regs from Amsterdam,
Sag

On Iran: "Their leadership isn't crazy",you say. So "Death to America" is just a standard greeting, like "Good Day"? And Ahmadinejad does not really mean what he says every time he refers to the coming of the twelfth imam and chaos and destruction needed to bring about his coming?

No: The mistake would be not to take them at their words.

I'm with you 100%, Dowse.

To you JW worrywarts:

O ye of little faith . . .

I'm going to start using Robert's line every time Israel triumphs in this manner from now on:

I tried to tell you.

This is indeed a cause for celebration!

Oh, and nabi ZK (pbuy), gotta love ya', as always!

"All you haters - I'm clear as a bell. I'll try and simplify one fact for you, perhaps facts will affect one of you. In the 60 Minutes interview of Ahmadinejad, he did not say he wanted to "wipe Israel off the map". "

He has said on numerous occassions..."Death to Israel"

He has said the Zionist Regime in Israel should be wiped off the map.

He has said the Palestinian people should wipe Israel off the map...

It is very clear how he feels about wiping Israel off the map.

Thinking may be an inherent problem with you. I would suggest that you take it easy at first, until you get used to it.

That link was exactly like my little girl (of happy memory) saw this world transformed into her own! Thanks.

That link was exactly the way my own little girl (of happy memory) saw this world transformed into her own! Thanks.

And also, as I know all so well, the rainbow was her signature favorite. From the time I showed her the spectrum and lined her crayons in spectral order, she drew the rainbow--the span of nigh four years. You've shared a revery with me, 'Wook.

In reply to her questions about Heaven, I replied that, if you can dream it, you can have it.

Eye has not seen, nor ears heard. . . .

I also showed her the musicvideo of an Israeli pop singer that Hugh Fitzgerald once posted here.

We'll leave the flowery rhetoric to you.

Some of us know how to win a war - and make no mistake, we are at WAR - and it's not with words.

Keep on calling us "haters"; your doing so only indicates your status as part of the uneducated generation and the level of your ignorance vis a vis the ideology of pisslam.

There's nothing wrong with hating evil.

Period.

Well said, Domenick.

CGW writes:

"To you JW worrywarts:

O ye of little faith . . ."
____________________

JE Dyer over at Hot Air

http://hotair.com/greenroom/archives/2011/11/30/that-uranium-conversion-facility-at-esfahan-not-a-priority-target/

has an interesting, but pessimistic analysis. I think it's flawed, however, in that he makes the mistake of assuming that Israel's intelligence agency isn't, actually, NOT trying to make it look like an accident, which seems to suggest non-involvement by Mossad.

But sowing this particular seed in the paranoia of the Mullahs seems very Islamo-savvy, and deliciously pernicious, if one knows the "thinking" of Muslims and Mohammed.
________

How's your Thursday, C?

From that link, the Doctor says something to the effect:
________________________________________________________

"They knew General Mogadahn was gonna' be at that military base".
_____

This sort of talk reassures me that the "good guys" are hard at work (as a tangential comparison - think of what went into getting bin Laden, in a sovereign state).
______________________________________________________

Truly, it is allah's will.

Yup, the good guys are at work but I think all the hard work is being done by the Mossad. I've never thought of the CIA as being particularly good for this kind of thing. To my mind, the CIA may have been responsible for the fall of the Shah either through incompetence or malice. Either way was bad news. So, if real good news comes out of all of this, it may be the efforts of the Mossad to which the West will owe its thanx.

I don't know if you saw the link I provided to the previous episode of Iranian Time Bomb but that one was more interesting to me and somewhat heartbreaking. The episode dealt with the abandonment, by the US, of the Iranian resistance to the Iranian 'Theocracy. The JW article, where I put the link, dealt with this issue as it related to President Obama. Dr. Ledeen dealt with the issue as it related to Hillary Clinton. The good doctor makes it clear that this wasn't just abandonment, it may have been an out-and-out betrayal.

If you missed the PJTV link it is: http://www.pjtv.com/?cmd=mpg&mpid=174&load=6308

One disappointment is that Dr. Ledeen said he would continue the discussion in the next episode but he didn't as far as I can see. The next episode is the one to which you just commented. I guess I will have to send and email to remind him of his promise.

Anyway, nice to hear from you David. Have a nice day and talk to ya soon.

Exactly Kepha!

I think it's more of a "3 Stooges" effect than anything else. Ineptitude comes to mind, not Mossad. Someone else posted how Iranians are not "monolithic." But I don't see students fighting the regime in this way.

I say it's more like, "nyuk nyuk.. whoo whoo..." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4ZgVRJ-H8U

We can never underestimate the power of psy-ops.

"We can never underestimate the power of psy-ops."
____________

That's sort of the line I was thinking. I mean, the possibilities seem to boil down to:
__________________________________

1. The Israelis had nothing to do with it. If they admit they had nothing to do with it, it minimizes the psy-ops.

2. The Israelis (and their partners, possibly) had everything to do with it. If this is the case, admitting complicity also weakens their position, given the virulent anti-Jewishness in the media today, if for only that reason.

3. The recent explosions at 2 Nuclear-related facilities in Iran are related, directly, to ineptitude, and/or a sad coincidence of "accidents". I, personally, CGW, don't believe in accidents or coincidences (unless in a spiritual context), but I'm no physicist, either.

4. We've all got it wrong, and as the Israeli official said, "It's, the Hand of God" at work.
_____________________________________

Whaddya' thunk?

I meant the above as a "replied to". Sorry.

CGW-

There's no need to apologize, C, though I think it is very big of you, and the mark of a true gentleman. Apology accepted.

We both acted silly, and I'm glad - very glad, that it's all over.

Comrades forever!!

Have a good Saturday, C. I gotta' write 2 exams...arrrghh!

glennd1 wrote:

I guess I just deal with facts, and they are:

1. Iran has never threatened to "wipe Israel off the map". In fact, that quote was completely wrong...
....................................

What rot. This wasn't just a "one-off" with a sloppy Farsi translator; high-ranking representatives of the Iranian regime say this *all the time*.

More:

...and if you listen to what they say, they oppose the Zionist regime.
....................................

Well, OK. If by this you mean that Muslims plan to invade Israel, commit mass-murder of Jews there, "drive them into the sea", and impose the slavery of dhimmitude on whatever cowed remnant manage to survive and find themselves unable to flee, then I concede your point...good to know you have no problem with this.

More:

...does Iran not possess the innate right to make its own foreign policy?
....................................

Of course they do. This is rather like the saying about how you have the right to swing your fist—right up until the point where you punch me in the nose. After that, it *is* legitimately my concern.

More:

2. Iran hasn't attacked another countries in 100 years.
....................................

Perhaps you haven't been paying attention? The Iranians attacked the British Embassy just last week, causing severe damage to the building, setting it on fire, and briefly taking staff hostage—all while screaming "Death to England!".

This was, infamously, a smaller-scale reprise of the attack and 444-day hostage taking at the American embassy in 1979.

Since these both happened in my lifetime, my guess is that your assertion that Iran hasn't attacked "another countries" in 100 years may be a bit off...

More:

Their leadership isn't crazy, they know launching a nuke would be political suicide. Once you get away from the ignorant American view, you realize that IRan is actually a pretty sophisticated political player, pursuing their interests.
....................................

What could be more "sophisticated" than screaming "Death to America!", "Death to Israel!", and "Death to England!", all while gunning down your own people in the streets, sentencing women to stoning, practicing widespread torture, hanging homosexuals, and having Ahmadinejad's personal "spiritual leader" declare the raping of virgin prisoners prior to their execution as holy an act as going on the Hajj? sarc/off

More:

Why do Americans even have a dog in this fight? I don't care who wins - Jew, Muslim - as long as they leave us alone...

The security of Israel is not a national security interest of the U.S.
....................................

As noted by other posers, Muslims are *not* leaving us alone—and are even less likely to do so if emboldened by destroying Israel.

As for Israel not being a national security issue of the US—how can you imagine that the defense of a vibrant democracy and staunch ally against barbarism is *not* an issue of national security?

This is like saying that Hitler's invasion of Czechoslovakia had noting to do with the security of the democratic nations...oh, wait...*someone did* make such an assertion at the time...

Tim Reynolds wrote, replying to glennd1:

glennd1....

You're up against it here...i guess you've noticed this hysterical trend. There are "haters" on this site, no doubt and extremely unfortunate...
....................................

So true! How could any decent person feel anything but the deepest love for a regime that oppresses and murders its own people while threatening genocide on its neighbors? sarc/off

It is notable that the term "hater" used in this manner comes from the world of Gangsta Rap, and the full term is "playa hater"—referring to people who take issue with those involved in violent "gangsta culture" such as drug dealing, pimping, waging turf and gang wars, and outright murder.