"I find it sad for the child and the teacher, who may have to redesign her teaching program as a result." Of course. When in Muslim countries, one must abide by Islamic mores. When in non-Muslim countries, one must abide by Islamic mores.
Noting that Islamic law forbids musical instruments and music itself except in some strictly defined circumstances will bring you swift charges of "ignorance" and "Islamophobia." I guess this devout Muslim family is actually made up of ignorant Islamophobes.
Hadith Qudsi 19:5: "The Prophet said that Allah commanded him to destroy all the musical instruments, idols, crosses and all the trappings of ignorance." (The Hadith Qudsi, or holy Hadith, are those in which Muhammad transmits the words of Allah, although those words are not in the Qur'an.)
Muhammad also said:
(1) "Allah Mighty and Majestic sent me as a guidance and mercy to believers and commanded me to do away with musical instruments, flutes, strings, crucifixes, and the affair of the pre-Islamic period of ignorance."
(2) "On the Day of Resurrection, Allah will pour molten lead into the ears of whoever sits listening to a songstress."
(3) "Song makes hypocrisy grow in the heart as water does herbage."
(4) "This community will experience the swallowing up of some people by the earth, metamorphosis of some into animals, and being rained upon with stones." Someone asked, "When will this be, O Messenger of Allah?" and he said, "When songstresses and musical instruments appear and wine is held to be lawful."
(5) "There will be peoples of my Community who will hold fornication, silk, wine, and musical instruments to be lawful ...." -- 'Umdat al-Salik r40.0
"Muslim kindergartener permitted to block out music," from CTV Montreal, December 19 (thanks to The Religion of Peace):
MONTREAL — A kindergarten student in Saint-Michel will be allowed to wear a noise-reducing headset in class, because her parents' [sic] say their religious beliefs don't allow the five-year-old girl to listen to music.Though music is an integral part of the kindergarten program, the principal of Bienville School decided to grant the accommodation request made by a Muslim family and allow their daughter to block out music at school.
"The principal thinks the family is acting in good faith," said Diane de Courcy, president of the Montreal School Commission. "(They) would have otherwise kept the child at home."
Kindergarten is not mandatory, and teachers say if the student is being sent into the program, barring the new immigrant from certain activities isolates her from the rest of the class.
"I find it sad for the child and the teacher, who may have to redesign her teaching program as a result," said Elaine Bertrand of union the Montreal Teachers' Alliance.
The school and school board felt the decision was a fair compromise to build trust with the family and help the child integrate into the school system sooner.
Nonsense. This isn't about integration. It is just the opposite of integration.
"Once she's in grade one, she'll have to follow the same curriculum as everyone else," said de Courcy.
Unlikely. Does de Courcy really think the demands for Muslim accommodation will end then?
Many teachers argue the issue is not strictly about music or religion, but rather the pressure they feel to reasonably accommodate a variety of demands from health-related issues to religion.Montreal Teachers' Alliance is asking for stricter guidelines for requests.
Education Minister Line Beauchamp said she instead supports the school's individualized approach.
"It would be impossible to develop a framework to address such a wide variety of reasonable accommodation requests," she said.
Indeed.
"The principal thinks the family is acting in good faith," said Diane de Courcy, president of the Montreal School Commission.
Nope.
Someone should inform Ms de Courcy of the exact nature of the 'faith' involved here.
One thing it is definitely NOT is 'good'!
Music unislamic & forbidden - Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 69, Number 494v
Music is haraam in Islam
The extremists who "hijacked" the Religion of Peace™
http://schnellmann.org/music-forbidden-in-islam-bukhari.html
Forbidden to listen to music, how sad and dehumanizing! I quess when St. Paul said that we should meditate on what ever is true, honorable, lovely, of good repute, excellent or worthy of praise, (Philippians 4:8) he wasn't referring to something like Islam!
"Music has charms to soothe a savage breast."
I guess the Moslems are afraid that if they listen to music they won't want to kill infidels any more, which would eliminate most of their religion.
Hadith Qudsi 19:5: "The Prophet said that Allah commanded him to destroy all the musical instruments...."
compare to:
John Dryden: "Music, the greatest good that mortals know.
And all of heaven we have below."
The voice of savagery vs. the voice of civilization.
What next? Blindfolds so that the ever sensitive little muslimah doesn’t have to see the star of David, or a Cross, or any other religious symbols or Christmas/ Hanukah decorations that could possibly lead her to stray from the religion pedophile prophet?
If music is forbidden, how do the Indonesians get away with their gamelan orchestras?
Maybe the Saudis should send some Wahhabi missionaries, along with some headsmen, to straighten them out.
No music in Islam. No alcohol in Islam. No fun in Islam. Part of a pattern, and a bad one at that.
Exactly Aardvark. .deliberately depriving a child of the joy of music and song is tantantmount to evil in my book.
"Montreal Teachers' Alliance is asking for stricter guidelines for requests."
If the parents object to the curriculum tell them to come and take the child home...
Could Chris Christie appointed Muslim judge Sohail Mohammed claim a similar right to never allow any music to be played in his courtroom, even as evidence in a case? This could provide a standard for offense: If Muslim judge Sohail Mohammed can't rightly complain then no one can.
How could a child freely choose their religion, or none at all, or become a fully functioning citizen in a pluralistic society if they are rendered deaf and blind to the existence of other ideas. It renders them "culturally incompetent." It renders them incapable of ever becoming a worldly and fair secular judge.
Hi all:
exsgtbrown:
Actually no. Education is obligatory from ages 5-16 and homeschooling isn't prevalent in Quebec as in the rest of North America.
I also under the Education minister's reluctance; lord knows the ministry is invasive enough in Quebec schools without micromanaging the schools. However, the minister should've reminded immigrant parents that while some accomodations can be made, they too have to adapt to the majority culture.
Finally, I'd really appreciate it if Robert or Raymond could explain why the Moslem are so hostile towards music. Personally, I hold the opinion that for a lot of Moslems listening to music is akin to an act of exorcism. Beauty, truth and goodness will drive away the anger that permeates Islam
Montreal: Muslim kindergartner permitted to block out music
"I find it sad for the child and the teacher, who may have to redesign her teaching program as a result."
................................
And how sad will *that* be for the rest of the children in the class—who are, presumably, Infidels who will now have to eschew music?
The mere idea that a *kindergarten student* will be "corrupted" by music is so sick. After all, they're not going to be playing Lady Gaga or Gansta Rap for the little moppets. For Muslims, even Sesame Street songs or "The Wheels on the Bus" is Haram.
God, I hate Islam.
More:
Of course. When in Muslim countries, one must abide by Islamic mores. When in non-Muslim countries, one must abide by Islamic mores.
................................
Muslim supremacism, in any case.
More:
Noting that Islamic law forbids musical instruments and music itself except in some strictly defined circumstances will bring you swift charges of "ignorance" and "Islamophobia." I guess this devout Muslim family is actually made up of ignorant Islamophobes.
................................
Yep.
More:
Kindergarten is not mandatory, and teachers say if the student is being sent into the program, barring the new immigrant from certain activities isolates her from the rest of the class.
................................
As though wearing a "noise-reducing headset" will not "isolate her from the rest of the class". In fact, this whole thing is *intended* to isolate her from the rest of the class of 'filthy Infidel' preschoolers.
More:
"Once she's in grade one, she'll have to follow the same curriculum as everyone else," said de Courcy.
Unlikely. Does de Courcy really think the demands for Muslim accommodation will end then?
................................
They're just getting started...
More:
Many teachers argue the issue is not strictly about music or religion, but rather the pressure they feel to reasonably accommodate a variety of demands from health-related issues to religion.
................................
Crap. It's one thing for teachers and school staff to go the extra mile to accommodate a child with, say, a life-threatening allergy to peanut butter—this is *nothing like that*.
This is about Muslim supremacy and the imposition of Islamic norms—first on Muslims, then on the entire society.
The parents, who are Muslim, say this is about their religion. Yet, in Turkey, which is over 99% Muslim, music is incorporated into the curriculum. Music lessons, leaning songs for the early grades, school concerts, even musical notes to signal class change and recess—all are part of school life. I taught at a private school there, but the students and staff were overwhelmingly Muslim—and I never heard any objection raised about the music. I believe it's the same in the public schools.
Makes one wonder what these parents would do if they lived in Turkey. Or is this really not about music at all? As Robert says, this issue is not really about integration—it's about standing out and getting special treatment.
Muzzies are hostile to music, xavier, because Mohammed said they should be, as evidenced above where Robert Spencer quoted certain passages from hadiths respecting Mohammed's take on music. And what Mohammed wants, Mohammed always gets, be it no music, no wine, plenty of females though, including a nine-year old, Aisha. Essentially the Koran itself is just a laundry list of what Mohammed (or a supposed Mohammed), projected on to a made-up deity called Allah, thought OK and not OK. You know, music bad, cutting off heads and fingertips of infidels good, and so on. As for beauty, truth and goodness driving away all the stored-up anger in Islam, lots of luck with that. Hope you and yours are doing well.
I find Spencer's very quick glance at a small number of translated Traditions which mention "music" as forbidden as a radically incorrect and just another rant against something he doesn't understand. I know he doesn't speak Arabic, doesn't read primary Muslim sources and is proud of it but if this "Islam expert" did, I would have thought that he would have run across Ibn Hazm for example, perhaps the most famous of classical Islamic jurist who allowed music. Shehab al Ramli, Sahnoun, and Al Kassany are others. In recent years, Mohammed El Ghazali has been the most vocal supporter of this opinion, and the Fatwa Committee of Al Azhar has issued a number of statements clarifying their official position vis a vis music. Their head of Comparative Islamic Law, Dr. Saad al Din Hilal, has also issued his opinion here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qCIKljVNEE.
Finally, perhaps the greatest evidence that completely destroys this argument (and was brought up by one of the commenters) is the reality of Muslim countries. All of these countries have endless histories of music, in both the pre- and modern periods. Basically the issue comes down to a simple question: If "Islamic Law" forbids musical instruments and music itself, then why are Muslims throughout history documented creating and enjoying music? Might I also quote a Hadith, just for fun....
It is reported in both Bukhari and Muslim that a group of dancing and singing performers came from Ethiopia and were performing in the Prophet's Mosque. He sat with A'isha leaning onto his shoulder and they watched the performance together.
It should be made clear that there are extremists, mainly those who follow a Wahhabi or Salafi trend in the Muslim world, who have taken an extreme literalist view of music in Islam. However, there is an exhaustive work by Abdullah Judai'a (الموسيقى و الغناء في ميزان الاسلام) that provides a detailed analysis of these Traditions, and attacks this radial position.
What I find strange about this post is that "Islamic Law forbids musical instruments and music itself except in some strictly defined circumstances" is wildly radical, un-academic, and completely unbecoming of a person who travels around the world (and makes quite a bit of money along the way) claiming to speak about Islam.
So, who is right? You, or the 'prophet' of Islam? If your 'prophet' is right, then Robert Spencer is right because he is simply quoting him. If you, then your 'prophet's' words have been rejected by you.
Choose! Your 'prophet' and the 'rightly guided' Mr. Spencer, or you. Which?
Proceeding on the assumption that all you say is true, can't you see that once again we have signficant contradictions in Islamic doctrine? And in this particular instance it's about a relatively harmless matter---music. But on so many other matters, truly important matters, you have disagreements within the Islamic community that deal with life and death issues. For instance, if one criticizes Mohammed or Islam, are they to be killed outright or given a chance to repent and convert to Islam? And should a Muslim who converts to another faith be terminated or left alone as long as he doesn't manifest any outward profession of his new faith? And so on.
But what other religion produces these kinds of discussions among its believers? Do Methodists sit around discussing whether to kill a former Methodist who has become a Buddhist? Do Buddhists debate what the ultimate fate of a former Buddhist should be because he converted to Catholicism? Do Baptists vigorously disagree with one another respecting what should befall a person who has mocked their religion? Do Jews debate whether a non-Jew should be harmed for making fun of the Torah? And so on. Don't you see that only Islam produces these barbaric discussions among its adherents? Meanwhile, over 18,000 documented Islamic terrorist attacks have occurred just since 9/11. How many Methodist, Buddhist, Catholic, Jewish, Sikh, Hindu, etc., terrorists attacks have occurred over this same time period?
One knows or should know by now that Islam is a gigantic pain in the ass for all the world and no other major religion is. All the precautions that security forces across the world have to take to guard against terrorism are being taken almost exclusively because Islam continues to exist. Very few terrorist acts across the world are perpetrated by non-Muslims. Almost all are due to Muzzies. As I said, Islam is one major pain in the ass for all the world. Well, I suppose it was almost inevitable that mankind would get a major religion that would be a menace to all of civilization. Mankind did. It got Islam. And I for one am utterly sick of this religion.
Wellington,
What we must understand is that 1,400 years of Muslim history have brought out discussions on just about anything, and luckily we have quite a bit of this written heritage to study today. As to your second paragraph, I believe that Islam is unique in this mountain of discussions. However, there are other important questions to be answered: did these books ever really matter on the ground? Or were they simply pointless academic discussions funded by wealthy state-supported scholars while everybody else carried on?
A good way to look at this would be to see the ancient court records. In Egypt, they are available back to 1600, and there have been a few people who have looked at them, and the one who comes to mind right now is Dr. Nelly Hanna. She has proven that in most cases, what was discussed in these books of "Islamic Law" and the standards of application were in many cases very different.
As for Buraq, I would suggest looking at some serious Hadith criticism to temper this idea presented by Spencer (and advocated by Salafis) that because there is a Hadith on the issue then it must be followed. Muslims such as Juwainy summed it up, but there are non-Western Muslim scholars who have done a pretty good job such as Goldziher, Shacht, Motzki, and Juynbol, with the first two on this list were pretty radical anti-Islam yet spent years teaching in Cairo.
The ironically self-named "An American" wrote:
I find Spencer's very quick glance at a small number of translated Traditions which mention "music" as forbidden as a radically incorrect and just another rant against something he doesn't understand.
.........................................
It seems the Muslim parents of this child in Montreal misunderstand Islam in just the same way that Mr. Spencer does.
How odd!
Here are some misunderstanders from Iraq from a couple of months ago:
"Bombs at Baghdad music shop kill 32, wound 71"
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2011/10/bombs-at-baghdad-music-shop-kill-32-wound-71.html
Here's former musician Bilal Philips, another Muslim in Canada who now misunderstands his religion:
"Muslim former guitarist now preaches against music"
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2011/02/muslim-former-guitarist-now-preaches-against-music.html
In the wake of Tunisia's "Arab Spring", they began expelling musicians there:
"Tunisia: Women harassed on beaches, musicians expelled"
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2011/07/tunisia-women-harassed-on-beaches-musicians-expelled.html
And here's a frightening sentiment:
"We have to be careful what we say about music -- the fundamentalists are everywhere"
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2011/09/we-have-to-be-careful-what-we-say-about-music----the-fundamentalists-are-everywhere.html
And the issue has even come up in the Canadian schools before. This article, from Winnipeg:
"Canada: Newly arrived Muslim families demand exemption from music and mixed-gender physical ed classes"
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2011/02/canada-newly-arrived-muslim-families-demand-exemption-from-music-and-mixed-gender-physical-ed-classe.html
All of the above stories are just from this year—and take place on three continents. I could have gone on citing cases all day.
Perhaps the absurdly named "An American" should take this issue up with his coreligionists, who clearly are unaware of the latest Fatwas out of Al Azhar. If only they had known! sarc/off
More crap from "An American":
Finally, perhaps the greatest evidence that completely destroys this argument (and was brought up by one of the commenters) is the reality of Muslim countries. All of these countries have endless histories of music, in both the pre- and modern periods.
.........................................
Yes—and none of those countries—Turkey, Egypt, Indonesia—are full Shari'ah states—*yet*. There are movements throughout the Muslim world to ban music.
I don't care about lax Muslims. I worry about pious Muslims—and there are more and more all the time—who are trying to impose their own grim bans—often violently—on music and art.
More:
Might I also quote a Hadith, just for fun....
It is reported in both Bukhari and Muslim that a group of dancing and singing performers came from Ethiopia and were performing in the Prophet's Mosque. He sat with A'isha leaning onto his shoulder and they watched the performance together.
.........................................
Actually, you *don't* quote the Hadith. The Hadith is here:
Narrated 'Aisha: The Prophet was screening me with his Rida' (garment covering the upper part of the body) while I was looking at the Ethiopians who were playing in the courtyard of the mosque. (I continued watching) till I was satisfied. So you may deduce from this event how a little girl who is eager to enjoy amusement should be treated in this respect.
Sahih Bukhari 7:62:163
This never really says *what* the performance consisted of at all. Certain instruments such as drums *do* seem to be allowed in Islam. Makes for a pretty limited repertoire...
More:
It should be made clear that there are extremists, mainly those who follow a Wahhabi or Salafi trend in the Muslim world, who have taken an extreme literalist view of music in Islam. However, there is an exhaustive work by Abdullah Judai'a (الموسيقى و الغناء في ميزان الاسلام) that provides a detailed analysis of these Traditions, and attacks this radial position.
.........................................
Well, isn't that special? Perhaps he should take the issue up with his coreligionists who mistakenly believe that Islam bans music. He might want to start with the pious Muslims who blew up the music shop in Baghdad...
"An American":
I see you're just as dim a bulb as when you tried to argue that Aisha was older than 9 when Muhammad consummated his marriage with her, based on some traditions you picked up from Wikipedia.
As I have written about Muslim scholars who reject the prohibition of music, I can't fairly be accused of not knowing about them. But what does this have to do with fairness, anyway? In this case the important question has already been asked by some of the other commenters: why do these Montreal Muslim parents misunderstand Islam in exactly the same way that an ignorant and malicious Islamophobe like me does? Why don't these Montreal Muslim parents care about all the pro-music authorities you have adduced?
"Just doing some thinking"!
Cordially
Robert Spencer
"I find Spencer's very quick glance at a small number of translated Traditions which mention "music" as forbidden as a radically incorrect and just another rant against something he doesn't understand."
Maybe you don't understand that Muslim have attacking and destroying music shops and instruments...The Muslims have been attacking wedding festivities where music has been played...The Muslims have made death threats to musicians who have scheduled a musical concert...The Muslims have arrested and imprisoned and from time to time killed the Musicians...Muslims have invaded the stages of great Orchestras and made Islamic speeches (this happened not long ago when the Israel National Symphony Orchestra tried to give a concert)...of course that one may have just been Islamic anti-semitic activity...Maybe you have a different opinion about music than did Muhammad...you do know he hated music, right?
The state of affairs between Islam and Music is documented many times in many places...here is but one:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2011/09/we-have-to-be-careful-what-we-say-about-music----the-fundamentalists-are-everywhere-print.html
They were just trying to protect their child from being crushed by mountains! Who can blame them?
Islamic Stupidity:
Muhammad said: Muslims who will consider the use of musical instruments as lawful will be crushed by mountains. The rest of them will be transformed into monkeys and pigs.
Bukhari 7.69.494
http://crossmuslims.blogspot.com/2011/09/stoned-by-monkeys.html
Also, "American,"
Goldziher anti-Islam? On the contrary. Although he completely destroyed the idea that the Hadith were historical in any way, he was immensely attracted to Islam, and said once that the greatest religious experience he ever had was while praying in a mosque in Cairo.
"Just doing some thinking"!
Cordially
Robert Spencer
Gravenimage,
Sorry I hit the nerve there. With regards to what you quoted, this isn't actually a Hadith..something that I would have thought that you would have picked up on and intentionally placed to see how the Islam-experts would grab it or not. This is a Khabar. Also, silent dancing I am sure is a fun art form, but usually dancing is accompanied by music, but that's just what is written in Judai'a's description of this Hadith, citing Fath al Bari among other discussions upon this issue.
I think you are twisting my words. I am not stating that Muslims are misunderstanding their religion, but that some adopt a radical, literalist interpretation of the religion that contradicts the majority of classical interpretations and doesn't differ too much from other radical non-Muslim groups in the West. What I take issue against Robert Spencer is that he, as an outside observer, is either incapable of or intentionally ignores these differences, usin cases such as those you cited above outside of both their economic, cultural, social, and political contexts to place them in exclusively "Islamic" terms, something that I believe is incredibly detrimental to the study of Islam as a whole and does nothing but spread ignorance and hatred, all while making money along the way - which is exactly what he accuses Muslims of doing.
It is sad. Poor kid. Can you imagine raising your child with no music, no songs. *smh* There is no happiness allowed in Islam.
I see nothing lucky, as you put it, about having an extensive written record of Muslim discussions through the centuries on sundry subjects. Not impressed in the least. Damn tedious and pointless, in fact, for someone looking at Islam from a perspective like mine.
Regarding the specific matter of music, I would just simply refer you to the responses to you above by exsgtbrown, gravenimage and Robert Spencer. I'll close here by asking how you, who goes by "An American," can square the First Amendment to the Constitution with Islam? I say it can't be done. After all, can't reconcile liberty with tyranny, whether that tyranny is secularly or spiritually based.
Muhammed didn't like for anyone to be happy, not for a second, kinda ruins the fear he used to control them and have power over the all. The only happiness Muhammed allowed was the happiness an evil person gets from committing evil acts.
Wellington:
FYI, "An American" is a Muslim who lives in Cairo.
He speaks perfect English and may be American for all I know, but clearly he does not understand or value foundational American principles.
Cordially
Robert Spencer
Spencer has his history marker on! Good job. You still haven't responded to that issue to date, and the sources from Wikipedia cite real books. This would be even more interesting in light of the Hadith criticism discussed in my first comment here.
I am appalled as always that you go for a personal attack to derail the issue, as you consistently get upset when your critics attack your complete lack of knowledge or study in Islam or any language Muslim scholars have chosen to express themselves. Do you still claim to have distant Lebanese roots? Or has that changed now?
I don't count "Umdat al Salik" as a knowledge of Islamic law. Yes, it is one very interesting text, and translated beautifully by Nuh Keller. However, it can in no way act as a representation of 1400 years of Islamic legal tradition. I have read a number of your works, and I can't recall coming across any of the scholars that I mentioned above. If you have these citations, please let me know.
For the answer to your question, see my previous comment. Otherwise, please think a bit and actually respond to my statements rather than simply trying to derail them.
"It should be made clear that there are extremists, mainly those who follow a Wahhabi or Salafi trend in the Muslim world, who have taken an extreme literalist view of music in Islam".
Extremists, you say!
What differentiates an "extreme" literalist view of such issues in Islam and merely literalist views? How can one be more literal than the other?
Please provide for us your personal definition of a Muslim "extremist" or the concept of "extremism" in Islam.
I find it laughable to hear Muslim clerics assuring the gullible among us that they teach against "extremism".
And by the way, Goldziher argued exactly the OPPOSITE of what you stated, and that the Hadith collections were potentially influenced by historical and political circumstances. Shacht then took that a step further, rejecting the authenticity of Hadith as a whole. Have you even read his stuff? I would start with his lectures at the American University in Cairo...and I could send you a copy as I know you haven't even been over here.
An American:
You actually have no idea where I've been or what I know.
You are, of course, completely wrong about Goldziher. I discuss his writings on the Hadith extensively in my forthcoming book. Watch for it: "Did Muhammad Exist?" I'm sure Cairo bookstores, with their strong commitment to free speech and free inquiry, will be stocking it.
Meanwhile, you're lying about pretty much everything else as well. Your Wikipedia-derived pseudo-scholarship about Aisha's age I demolished here long ago. Search the archives. I even made you into a featured post, so delicious was your self-righteous puffery and arrogance combined with ignorance.
Please produce evidence that I ever claimed "distant Lebanese roots." I am starting to think that you wouldn't recognize the truth if it hit you in the face.
And to find my writings on a particular issue, do a search. I am not going to do your research for you on top of everything else.
Finally, the question still remains: why did this family ignore the pro-music tradition in Islam? Just calling them names, or me names, or telling extravagant lies about me, doesn't answer that. Obviously the pro-music traditions weren't referred to for this story because they aren't relevant to it. But it still falls to you to explain why so many Muslims misunderstand Islam, and all in the same ways.
Just doing some thinking!
Cordially
Robert Spencer
One thing we know, is that learning to play a musical instrument; piano, guitar, or what have you, will enhance cognitive reasoning, and we all know that Muslims, uh, well, you know.
An American:
One last thing, regarding Umdat al-Salik: it is certified by al-Azhar as conforming to the practice and faith of the orthodox Sunni community.
How unfortunate that they misunderstand Islam even at al-Azhar, and only grasp it properly in your little Cairo hovel, isn't it?
Cordially
Robert Spencer
Since Robert is up and running, here we go!
"Since childhood I have had an interest in the Muslim world, from which my family comes. When I was very young my grandparents would tell me stories about their life there, and I always heard them with great interest." You then later mentioned in the Catholic Report that this was a connection to the Melikite sect and, my mistake, distant Syrian roots.
You're right, I have no idea where you have been, and have no desire to know. But, according to the way you speak, you have never been to Egypt. Your books are available, but unfortunately to a limited audience as they are only available in English. I would recommend translating them but, oops. Sorry about that. I keep forgetting about the language thing...Your books are also filled with anti-left American political commentary, which shows who your target audience is, so I doubt that even in translation they would be understandable to a general Egyptian audience.
Did you really debunk my statements? DId you really prove that A'isha was 9? I just think you quoted the same single, uncoroberated Hadith along with a handful of Muslims whose works have been translated into English who support your opinion, ignoring the numerous other Muslim scholars who have argued against this idea along with the countless laws currently on the books (in Saudi Arabia, for example) that prohibits child marriage. I just think that you can't get off of the Wikipedia thing. It seems that even your Goldziher comment was a direct hit off of Wikipedia. Weird, isn't it.
Goldziher agreed with the general "spirituality" of Islam, as many Orientalists did. However, he and others were radically against the legal ideology and overall message of Islam and saw it as a dead system, which I would have thought that an expert could differentiate between.
I'm lying about my other statements? That's the Spencer that I know, blind general attacks made by the "Islam expert" and if a critic ever accused him of lying he would go crying to Front Page Mag. Prove it. I feel another rant coming on, without actually answering my statements. I think we're up to 4 now and that's pretty good for only 4 in the afternoon.
An Amer:
Lying again. I never claimed to be Syrian or Lebanese.
That "single, uncorroborated hadith" actually appears in the hadith collection Muslims consider most reliable: Bukhari says Aisha was nine, not once but several times. All your Wikipedia sources are considered by Muslim scholars to be much less reliable than Bukhari.
I guess they're all ignorant Islamophobes, eh?
Child marriage is rampant in the Islamic world -- see the refugee camps in Afghanistan. See the statements from Saudi and Yemeni clerics in the archives here. See Khomeini, who lowered the legal marriageable age of girls in Iran to nine. What an ignorant Islamophobe he must have been!
I've never read Goldziher's Wikipedia entry and don't know what's in it. But you go on: I know ad hominems are the stock-in-trade of the intellectually bankrupt. You have nothing else.
I've never lied about anything in my entire body of work: 11 books, hundreds of articles, over 25,000 blog posts. Nor have you or anyone else ever established a single error in anything I've asserted about Islam or jihad.
But I know you'll keep trying. If you weren't so demonstrably truth-challenged, maybe I'd be worried.
Cordially
Robert Spencer
Most teachers don't think twice about accomodating the particular religious demands of this or that student's parents, as we have a long history of being required to do just that.
I have students who are Witnesses who are required to absent themselves from anything relating to holidays. Accomodating them has never been a problem; and their parents have never asked that we curtail the activities from which their children are excluded.
I once received a letter from parents who were "offended" by a compare-and-contrast paragraph the children were asked to write,in which they were asked to compare their individual character traits with those of the Chinese zodiac sign under which they had been born. (This was in connection to some language arts exercises connected to the Chinese new year celebration.) I did not agree with the parents, but allowed the child to do another activity so as not to have an "issue" with her parents.
The problem is when parents ask that we cripple our coverage of vital historical and cultural information in order to accomodate their religious or cultural prejudices. In the case mentioned above, I do not know for certain if the parents were asking that their child be excluded, or if they made demands that the subject not be taught.
An American,
Are you personally offended by music? (There is but one source for the answer.)
Did you arrive at this conclusion by personal choice? (There is but one source for the answer.)
I did not know that "An American" lives in Cairo, and so thank you, Mr. Spencer, for informing me of that, but I did know that going by the name he does legitimately opens him up to specific queries about America, its values and its Constitution, irrespective of his true citizenship status. Of course, as you said, "he does not understand or value American foundational principles," but I couldn't resist asking him about them anyway. I think it imperative that Muslims and their dhimmi lackeys comprehend that a continually growing number of Americans are coming to understand just how inimical Islam is to America and its Constitution.
Wishing you the best this Christmas season, Mr. Spencer. The good you have done for America and all the West is incalculable. Those of us who cherish liberty owe you a great debt for all you have done.
@ An American in Cairo
If the Hadith that speaks of Aisha's age is wrong, why would Allah allow Muslims to follow the wrong path for nigh on 1400 years?
And if being a 'Sunni' Muslim is to mean anything, then wouldn't that entail Sunni Muslims imitating their 'prophet' and marrying girls who are extremely young?
Either their 'prophet' did marry a child and have sex with her at the age of 9, or there has been a horrible mistake made in a Hadith which is central to Islamic beliefs and which shapes the behavior of countless millions of Muslims - sex with children, that is.
And if that Hadith is wrong, what about the others? Are they all questionable?
Seems like Islam is tottering on its last legs!
your family who are muslims told you stories. look here sonny I was born and raised a muslim and we were not allowed to listen to music. so let's get real. thie guy(robert)knows more about Islam than 99% of all muslims. where are your family from? raw sewage that is called Pakistan? a shithole that is called Egypt? a country that is called Afghanistan where people still live like they did in the 6th century? or may me Yemen? Islam the biggeast curse on humaity. nothing good has come out of islam. zero. nothing. except beheadings, hanging gays and curtailing freedom of speech. I would recomend you packed up your bags and went to Saudi Arabia since you are in love with muslims. you will have a blast there!!!
You give examples of how music is regarded in some muslim countries, and by some muslims.
You do not, however, give any explanation, or opinion, or thought as to why this particular muslim family feels that music is so evil that their toddler has to be shielded from it.
Neither do you offer any opinion on the morality/moral fibre of this ghastly Montreal Kindergarten which has decided to cave into the outrageous demands of this monstrous family.
That, really, is the point of the post, to my mind. Not that some hadiths or islamic 'scholars' say music is ok; but that this particular family has invoked their 'islamic beliefs ' to demand that their child should be treated differently from all the other pupils at the kindergarten, the child is now separated from the other children in a very fundamental way, and the message has been sent that muslims will not integrate, indeed, will demand that the host country defer to them. islamic supremacy.
That attitude disgusts and revolts me - what is even worse is the pusillanimous dhimmitude of this kindergarten, which, in the name of 'cultural sensitivity' will allow this poor child to miss out on the wonderful musical and artistic culture that the West has produced.
But you think that's perfectly ok, or if you don't, have articulated no arguments against it, just petty and specious attempts at point scoring against Mr Spencer, who obviously knows more, and has a clearer vision of the foul cult of islam than you do, also the very erudite and cogent postings of others on this forum - graven, Wellington et al, who I can't begin to come up to.
But, still, very simply - are the muslim family right to stop their child listening to music ? Is the Kindergarten right to give into their demands ? Please answer those two questions, with reasons.
Immigrants who refuse to make any cultural accomodation to their new host country should be summarily deported. Cultural accomodation and assimilation must be made legally explicit conditions of immigration, violation of which will lead to immigrants being sent home. This should also be true for so-called 'refugees'.
The alternative is increasing acrimony and, ultimately, violence as immigrants saturate, then wall off communities and turn sections of their host country into dangerous no-go zones for persons who do not match thier cultural, language and religious background. That is not what immigration has ever been about.
When a tolerant society permits persons of a totally intolerant culture to immigrate and increase in numbers, it is a mathematical certainty that at some point the tolerant society will be replaced by the intolerant one. That is now what tolerance or immigration is all about.
I hardly understand your foray down this path.
Why do you think that Muslims who justify music are more devout than those who follow the reliable ahadith?
Personally, I think music was banned by Mohammed because, as in all societies, song is used along with poetry to mock and parody the worthy targets of the day. It is recorded in several places how Mohammad's wrath at being mocked resulted in the slaughter of his critics. Certainly banning music could only help cut down on the number of jabs so deservingly sent in his pathetic direction.
That's an interesting theory, winoceros, respecting why Mohammed banned music. Hadn't thought of that. Could very well be the case.
I've suspected that he had no musical talent and his putting the lid on music was an effort by him of making something unimportant, in fact haram, for which he had no ability. When examining Mohammed's motives for doing anything, I try never to lose sight of his narcissism, of his self-serving personality. Explains a lot about this highly malevolent and manipulative man. In any case, both your theory and mine (I actually like yours more than mine) are fully in accord with the idea that Mo was interested in Mo first and foremost.
Winoceros and Wellington:
Authoritarian militarists tend to hate music.
There is a famous quote from Lenin. He says he has just listened to some music -- if I recall correctly it was something by Beethoven -- and he says that it lifted his spirits so that he felt like going out and embracing strangers on the street, and that therefore he had to stop listening to music.
And of course the Soviet state kept tight controls on music, trying to ensure that it all served agitprop purposes.
Perhaps those who want to keep the human spirit tightly fettered see music as a threat.
Cordially
Robert Spencer
Hey "American"-
You've laid out a whole lot of nonsense, but I feel compelled to nail you on one bit of lying you do, in particular:
"Finally, perhaps the greatest evidence that completely destroys this argument (and was brought up by one of the commenters) is the reality of Muslim countries. All of these countries have endless histories of music, in both the pre- and modern periods."
___________________________
That is utter BS. You go to Saudi and try to play a guitar on the street corner and watch how fast the Mutaween swoop down on you.
And this from "American":
"You're right, I have no idea where you have been, and have no desire to know."
______________________
Sir, you have destroyed a portion of your own pseudo-argument; that is, that, ostensibly, somehow, Spencer's knowledge and citations and worldly experience are severely lacking, in your view.
Yet you confess to not caring or knowing what that full experience and knowledge may, actually, be.
_________________________________________________________
You may think you can come on this site and argue with us cogently, but I think you're full of yourself, and that you're probably some two-bit convert that is happy to live in Cairo with a two-bit teaching gig at American University of Cairo. Am I right? I think so.
I've seen and heard your type all over the Middle East.
I can't speak for Spencer or anyone else on this site, but you're not fooling me, Mister.
Wellington and Winocerous:
"I've suspected that he had no musical talent and his putting the lid on music was an effort by him of making something unimportant, in fact haram, for which he had no ability."
_______
Yeah, and he also probably couldn't handle his liquor, and was a horrid-looking old man who couldn't stand the prospect of women rejecting him (hence the "songstress" reference).
_________
Nothing worse than non-musicians attempting to wax philosophical on the production of music by women, or otherwise.
There's nada in the Hadeeth about Mo playing any instrument or being a composer of music or poetry.
"An American" wrote:
Gravenimage,
Sorry I hit the nerve there.
...............................
You "hit a nerve", all right. The specter of Muslims imposing Islamic norms that prohibit art and music is something most civilized Westerners take issue with.
More:
With regards to what you quoted, this isn't actually a Hadith..something that I would have thought that you would have picked up on and intentionally placed to see how the Islam-experts would grab it or not. This is a Khabar...
...............................
Some Muhaddithin (scholars of Hadith) employ the term Khabar for Hadith. A Hadith may be regarded as ranging from Sahih to Hasan, Da`if, Mawdu`, or Maqlub1—depending on the traceability of its Isnad chain. Sahih Bukrari's collection of Hadiths is considered reliable—"Sahih", in fact, translates as "reliable".
In addition, a tradition or event referred to in the Hadith may be regarded as Khabar-i-Tawatur (multiple evidence Hadith) or Khabar-i-Wahid (single evidence Hadith). The latter are considered weaker, even if they are Sahih.
We are deep in "angels dancing on the head of a pin" territory with the above. Like Wellington, I find this all tedious in the extreme.
The fact is that Muslims are restricting or banning music—both in their own hell-holes and now increasingly in venues in the West—and are in many cases *killing people* who defy this ban.
If you are a Muslim who enjoys music this *should concern you as well*.
More:
I think you are twisting my words. I am not stating that Muslims are misunderstanding their religion, but that some adopt a radical, literalist interpretation of the religion that contradicts the majority of classical interpretations and doesn't differ too much from other radical non-Muslim groups in the West.
...............................
What utter crap. What "radical non-Muslim groups" are threatening those who play music?
More:
What I take issue against Robert Spencer is that he, as an outside observer, is either incapable of or intentionally ignores these differences, usin cases such as those you cited above outside of both their economic, cultural, social, and political contexts...
...............................
The cases I cited involved Iraqi "insurgents", a Western convert, the nation of Tunisia, an Arab musicologist, the Taliban, and Muslim parents in Canada.
It seems that this might cover quite a range of "economic, cultural, social, and political contexts"—and yet, they all came to the same conclusions about how Islam regards music...
Also, here is the usual argument—that only Muslims can be considered equipped to speak authoritatively on Islam, and that their victims not be allowed to comment.
This is, in fact, *exactly* the strictures placed on dhimmis under Shari'ah.
More:
...to place them in exclusively "Islamic" terms, something that I believe is incredibly detrimental to the study of Islam as a whole and does nothing but spread ignorance and hatred, all while making money along the way - which is exactly what he accuses Muslims of doing.
...............................
I'm sure Mr. Spencer could find a way to "make money" that wouldn't involve so many threats to his person.
And I know *I* haven't made a cent from my concerns about Islam and its foul encroachments, and neither have most of the people here.
The only "hatred and ignorance" on hand is that of Islam itself—pointing out how hateful and ignorant Islam is constitutes the telling of truth, and nothing more.
Islam has a very ugly tradition of hating music—and an even uglier tradition of backing up that hatred with oppression and violence.
This is something that no one can honestly refute.
Fools! Fools! Fools!
If Canadian culture & schooling is so offensive to them, rather than accommodating them, deport them . I think everyone has had ENOUGH of this a$$ kissing.
These muslim parents are NOT acting in good faith, if they were they'd be doing their best to assimilate into the free & accepting culture that was STUPID enough to let them in. The demands for special treatment and sharia will never end. It's best to deny them from the very beginning.
If they were given a choice between having their demands met and deportation, what do you think they'd choose? Thats' right, this religious obligation to avoid music would disappear in a heartbeat. Wise Up!
"but I think you're full of yourself, and that you're probably some two-bit convert that is happy to live in Cairo with a two-bit teaching gig at American University of Cairo. Am I right? I think so."
I seem to recall "An American" posting a few years back boldly stating he was a Muslim convert studying in Egypt...
If you adopt Canada, you adapt to Canada! In this case the family cannot adapt, well the family cannot adopt Canada. As long as immigrants perceive that we do not value who we are they ( the Muslims essentially) will not have respect for who we are.
Jan
excellent post.
Right on point.
You pinned our slithery Mohammedan Dementor to the wall when you wrote:
"But, still, very simply - are the muslim family right to stop their child listening to music ? Is the Kindergarten right to give into their demands ? Please answer those two questions, with reasons."
I guess the American in Cairo got lost as we have not heard from him. Must be listening to some American music...
The curious thing about this incident with the Muslim kindergartener in Montreal, is that it is identical - right down to the wearing of earmuffs in class to shut out all that eevil music - with something that happened in italy, also with the daughter of devoutly Mohammedan immigrant parents. That girl, too, was forbidden to participate in music classes, and was forced to wear earmuffs.
http://www.newenglishreview.org/blog_direct_link.cfm/blog_id/31168
Thursday, 9 December 2010
'Muslim [girl] In Italian Middle School Wears Earmuffs To Avoid Hearing Music In Music Class" - (In Italian)
From Corriere della Sera:
'Cuffia islamica nell’ora di musica'
'La figlia va a scuola con la cuffia [earmuffs] nelle orecchie perché il padre non vuole che ascolti la lezione di musica: «roba da infedeli». Succede alla scuola media di Reggello'.
"Muslim Earmuffs in Music Hour'
'His daughter goes to school with earmufs on her ears because her father doesn't want her to hear the music lesson - 'Infidel stuff'. It's happening in a middle school in Reggello'.
The Canadian story is about a kindergarten kid. This one was about a young teenager - in Italy, music-steeped Italy.
Those who can read Italian will discover that this particular Muslim family hailed from Morocco, and that the father considered music 'impura, una roba da infedeli' (that is, unclean, infidel stuff).
Even if Islam had nothing else objectionable about it, I would not follow it for this reason. What sort of religion frowns on music?! It's horrifying to me. My heart breaks for that poor child.
In Denmark it has been disclosed that some schools are censoring, rewriting or disallowing Christmas Carols so as not "to offend the Muslims".
Do look up "nasheed" on Wikipedia (usual reservations etc):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anasheed
A quotation: "many Muslim scholars interpret Islam as prohibiting the use of musical instruments except for some basic percussion."
Cheers dda. Praise from you is praise indeed.
'An American', if he is indeed one, should be ashamed of himself - he hasn't answered *anyone's* comments with anything logical or substantial, merely slurs and sneers. Come to think of it, sneering , unwarranted arrogance is one of the defining characteristics of islam - assuredly one of the reasons this sad little troll is attracted to it.
Have *any* of these wretched trolls ever stayed the course, or do they always bu**er off when faced with rational opposition ? All the more reason to do everything that in us lies to defend freedom of speech. NSE.
''Another Islamic scholar, Ibn Taymiyyah, once said that music is like alcohol to the soul.[2]''
Ie, it makes people feel good ! Is it the Bible which says, 'wine makes glad the heart of man' ? And so with music. And unlike alcohol, a lot of it won't make one ill !
Good call on "un-American", Dowse.
Here's hoping that he loves his islamic $hithole so much that he chooses to make it his permanent residence. He's too ignorant - and yes, stupid - for the good old USA.
Ebonystone, Wellington, London Jim, exsgtbrown, Kinneddar, Buraq, miriam rove, Stephen, Jan, Winoceros, Dumbledore's Army, Steffen Larsen, David Dowse, CGW, Mo, Isabella, and, of course, Robert Spencer—good posts, all.
It's still early here, but I have already listened to Beethoven's "Ode to Joy", selections from Handel's "Messiah", and am now savoring Pink Martini's wonderfully retro version of "Do You Hear What I Hear".
I wish you all the beauty and joy of music this season—whether that includes traditional, classical, jazz, rock, or the Sex Pistols. Listening to music—even occasionally crappy music—is one of the great joys of being an Infidel. Our societies are saturated with glorious music—even in the elevator, between innings at the baseball game, and in the lowrider driving by with its bass turned up too high.
I *love it all*. Not every single song, of course—but in music's ubiquity, in the ease with which we can break out in song in the shower or before a ball game.
We should *never* lose it. The specter of being able to listen to nothing but screeching Nasheeds with drum accompaniment is too grim to contemplate. I'd rather listen to birdsong or traffic than praise to the brutal, killjoy "Allah".
Now I've got Beth Orton singing "It's a Wonderful World". I couldn't agree more!
...
To CGW and David Dowse,
I know this is really none of my business, and I hope I'm not sticking my nose in where it doesn't belong, but I'm so happy the two of you have reconciled! I enjoy your comments on each others' posts.
A Merry Christmas, and Happy Hannukah, and Happy Solstice, and wonderful musical December to everyone here!
Of course it's your business, graven. We're all comrades-in-arms here.
It was just a blip on the radar. Should never have happened.
"Of course it's your business, graven. We're all comrades-in-arms here."
____________
Yep.
Merry Christmas to you and your family, CGW.
Hope it's not too cold up there in Minnesota.
:)
"I seem to recall "An American" posting a few years back boldly stating he was a Muslim convert studying in Egypt..."
_______
Ah hah!
Merry Christmas, gravenimage!
Feliz Navidad to you and your family, David Dowse. It's not too cold here yet, but January is a-comin'. We'll be ready.
It used to be that the cold weather kept away the riff-raff. That all changed with the Somali invasion.
North Dakota, here I come!
Actually, there's not even any snow on the ground currently. The worst thing about the winter is the lack of direct sunlight, something you never suffer from in Hermosillo. Minnesotans crave direct sunlight so much that it can be -30 F degrees outside, but if the sun is shining brightly, everyone goes around saying, "Isn't it a beautiful day?"
Graven, this is my favorite Christmas song of all time, and this is the best performance I've ever heard. She seems particularly able to express the essence of the emotions of spirituality inherent in the season. Enjoy!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Jr-2eyRtV4&feature=related
Hey there An AMERICAN. Are you going to deny Islam's own sources, Quran, Sunnah and Sirah clearly reveal the so-called 'Prophet and Messenger' of the mythical Allah, MURDERED all who spoke out against him and that with the support of his booty and sex motivated followers, he lied, plotted, enslaved, tortured, killed, robbed, ransomed and raped his way to absolute political and religious power ???
"You do not, however, give any explanation, or opinion, or thought as to why this particular muslim family feels that music is so evil that their toddler has to be shielded from it."
An American (note: he also uses other names) has some 'splainin to do...
Like you, I am waiting to see it...
CGW wrote:
Graven, this is my favorite Christmas song of all time, and this is the best performance I've ever heard. She seems particularly able to express the essence of the emotions of spirituality inherent in the season. Enjoy!
.........................
*Just lovely*, CGW. Of course, I know the song—and the singer—but I had never heard her version before. Beautiful.
Here's "The Huron Carol", sung by Monique Fateaux.
She performed this for staunch Anti-Jihadist and able musicologist Mark Steyn on his Christmas show two years ago. On the show, Mark and Monique have some wonderful banter, which I have unfortunately been unable to find since.
But the song itself is here. Written in Quebec in 1643 and sung in Huron, French, English, and Latin, it is very haunting. One of the very few carols set in North America:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNIXunZ6bnY
And here is a Christmas song that could not be more different! I tend to favor more traditional songs, but "2000 Miles", sung by KT Tunstall, is marvelous. It was originally written by—of all people—Chrissie Hynde of the Pretenders—not a performer you normally associate with Christmas music.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vc5rbiOkop8
It has a wonderful sense of building anticipation—for Christmas, for going home, for seeing the one you love. It gives me the sense of a young woman coming home for Christmas after her first time away. Other interpretations are possible, of course.
Anyway, I hope you like one or both. Thanks again for sharing your lovely selection.
Merry Christmas!
Thanks for the songs, graven. I enjoyed both of them.
It's a bit late, but here's a link to an ecard that you can send with the Celine Dion version of "O Holy Night".
http://www.123greetings.com/events/holiday_thanx/o_holy_night_a_christmas_carols.html
Merry Christmas to you and your family!
Please email me sometime. (CGW3004@yahoo.com)
I'm trying to find a good nativeFrench-speaker version of "Un Flambeau, Jeannette Isabelle" on Youtube but I've had no luck thus far. Do you know of one? I can't stand all the versions with the atrocious accents.
I've had no luck with finding a native French version of "Un Flambeau, Jeannette Isabelle" either—although surely such exist.
The carol is from 16th-century Provence, and was published in France in 1553. Even its English version, "Bring a Torch, Jeanette, Isabelle" is quite old—it was translated into English in the 18th century.
Here's a marvelous painting by Georges de la Tour, "Le Nouveau-né" from the late 1640s based on the song:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4d/Georges_de_La_Tour_020.jpg