The indomitable Ali Sina of Faith Freedom has been in a discussion of sorts with Sheila Musaji of The American Muslim, who is an established liar. His latest piece addressed to her brilliantly answers the principal charges that Leftists and Islamic supremacists routinely make against Pamela Geller and me, and our organizations.
(I have reproduced it below as it appears in the original; "Namazi" is of course the communist antisemite Maryam Namazie, and "Bari" is Rifqa Bary.)
...Let us continue:It is both surprising and not surprising that Ali Sina has now been named to the Board of Directors of the newly formed Stop the Islamization of Nations SION which is a coalition SIOA, SIOE, and other hate groups, and which will be led by Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer. It is not surprising because of the animosity towards Islam that he shares with Geller and Spencer. It is surprising because of the fact that Geller herself is Jewish, and Ali Sina seems to have as much animosity towards Judaism as he does against Islam.
Perhaps this is above your ken but what unites Pamela Geller (a Jew), Robert Spencer (a Catholic), Wafa Sultan (a secular humanist), Babu Suseelan (a Hindu) ,and yours truly, is our humanity. We have different beliefs, but we don’t allow that to divide us. To a Muslim this might be incomprehensible. You see the world divided on religious lines. We don’t see it that way. We see all mankind as members of one gigantic human family. We have different tastes in politics and in religion. But we never let them come between us and divide us.
I receive many emails from youths who say they no longer believe in Islam and want to become Christian. I never discourage them. Let me quote what I wrote to one such youth yesterday.
This 22 year old Somali woman wrote to Pamela Geller and told her that she wants to be a Christian. She added, “However, i know that if my family [comes to] know about this they will surely end my life since it will bring them shame in our community. Once my father found a bible in my drawer and he told me that if he founds it there again he will do something to me that i will regret forever. I feel unsafe here and am looking for a way out please help me before it is too late.”
Pamela asked me to reply and here is a few passages from my email to her:
“Faith is a very personal matter. It is a relationship you have with your God. No one can take it away from you and you don’t have to speak about it to anyone. Jesus did not start a new religion. He wants to have a personal relationship with you. As long as you have him in your heart, he is with you even if you don’t attend any church or interact with other Christians.
If you live in your parent’s home, you need to live by their rules. Don’t keep a Bible at home and don’t have any cross or anything that may make them think you are a Christian. You don’t need to do any baptism either. Love of God is your baptism. Soon you will be out of your parent’s home and will be more independent.
…
Meanwhile I suggest you act with caution. Time will pass fast. Study hard and get the best education you can. Education is your key to freedom. If you have a good education you can get a hired sooner and afford getting out of your parental home faster. You may even go and live in another city or another country.
If you want to read the Bible you can find it online. If you want to discuss your faith with anyone you can find Christian communities online. Don’t share your thoughts with anyone. Study, study and study! This is the fastest way to your freedom.”
Pamela is a Jew and I am a humanist. But neither of us discouraged this girl from following the path that she had chosen for herself. We don’t care about people’s faiths. We care about their lives. We don’t divide mankind along religious lines. There is no such thing as believers/unbelievers, the faithful and the kafir in our lexicon. What matters, is our humanity and what makes us human is not what we believe, but how we live.
You are a Muslim. You are genuinely incapable to see that we are humans first, and religion is nothing compared to the strong string of humanity that runs through the core of all of us and binds us together like the beads in a rosary. You see the world from the tainted glasses of Islam. What you don’t know is that those glasses come from the mind of a psychopath narcissist. Islam is insanity. This is not an insult. This is my thesis and I have proven it. Read my book and you too will agree.
You then continued:
The Southern Poverty Law Center published a report citing Geller for hate speech. The AFDI has been named a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center. The American Freedom Defense Initiative is the parent group of the SIOA. Spencer, Geller, and Yerushalmi are featured in the SPLC reports Jihad Against Islam and The Anti-Muslim Inner Circle.
Yes I know. These traitorous leftist organizations are your lackeys. What unites them with you Muslims is your common hatred of the Judeo-Christian western values. But they are stupid. They think by supporting fellow haters of the western values they will be stronger and you will help them to come to power. All they have to do to see their folly is to talk to fellow commies from Iran. Let them talk with Maryam Namazi from UK. Namazi and her comrades were instrumental in the revolution of 1979 in Iran. They threw their lot with Islamists. But they were the first who were eliminated when Khomeni took power. If Islam ever comes to power in Europe or in America, all those left leaning organization that today defend Islam will be the first to be eliminated. Those who don’t read the history, tend to repeat the same errors.
Pamela Geller and her organizations don’t become hate groups just because a bunch of moon-bats says so. Pamela has demonstrated her compassion and care for countless hapless and helpless young Muslims whose own families have turned against them. Young Muslims write to her from all over the world asking for help. This woman should be awarded the Nobel Prize for her humanitarianism and for her compassion. Alas the Nobel Prize committee is so politicized that they think charlatans like Arafat, Obama and Al Gore are more deserving for that prize than good humans who truly serve mankind.
One of the saddest stories is when Gore was granted the Nobel Prize for lying about global warming there was a 92 years woman named Irene Sendler, who was also a nominee. She had saved some 2,500 Jewish children from the Nazi Holocaust by smuggling them out of Warsaw Ghetto, in her basket and tool box. I felt a lump in my throat when I read her story and that instead of her the committee chose this filty liar.
I don’t give a damn about those organizations calling Pamela Geller a hate monger. I can see how much she cares about people. I saw how she took to heart the case of Rifqa Bari and protected that beautiful soul when her parents wanted to kill her.
Where were you to protect Rifqa? Why young Muslims don’t write to YOU to protect them from their families and write to Pamela? Because they know you are a hypocrite Islamist and all you care is your damn religion, but Pamela is a humanitarian who cares about them and is not concerned about what religion they believe. I have seen people write to her and say they want to stay Muslim but just want to be free from the tyranny of their parents and Pamela still advised them compassionately and tried to help them without ever telling them they should leave Islam first.
Pay Pal at least temporarily suspended Geller’s site Atlas Shrugs for being a hate site.
Sure! They did it because a bunch of Muslims like you wrote to Pay Pal lied about Pamela and libled her of spreading hate. When Pay Pal realized they had been duped they reversed their decision.
Actually, Musaji is here lying yet again. PayPal never actually suspended Geller at all.
You then said
Spencer and Geller attempted to patent the SIOA trademark, but were refused by the U.S. patent office The government response, posted on the site, states, “The applied-for mark refers to Muslims in a disparaging manner because by definition it implies that conversion or conformity to Islam is something that needs to be stopped or caused to cease.”
That is because our Governments are misled. They consider Islam a religion and as such it is protected. That is why we formed SION (Stop Islamization Of Nations) to educate and to unmask Islam. Islam is not just a religion. It is more a political ideology of domination. It must be classified as such. It is more akin to communism and Nazism than it is to other faiths. Muhammad said al Islamo deenun wa dawla (Islam is both religion and government.) One cannot be separated from another. This is what people don’t know. It will take some time to make the world aware of it. But we are patient and determined. More prominent people are joining SION from all over the world. We are poised to become a powerful international force. And we will go after traitors who sell their country for vote. We will expose them. We know that anytime a politician supports Islam we have to follow the money trail to find a skeleton in their closet. That is what we intend to do.
The Center for American Progress released a groundbreaking report Fear Inc.: The Roots of the Islamophobia Network in America. The key researchers for this report were Wajahat Ali, Eli Clifton, Matthew Duss, Lee Fang, Scott Keyes, and Faiz Shakir. The report itself is the result of a six month investigative project, and is 132 pages in length. Geller is cited as part of this network.
Oh really!? So a bunch of Muslims and their minions got together and cited Geller as Islamophobe? And what else is new? I repeated many times that Islamophobia is a fallacy. Geller is a defender of the Western civilization.
Musaji quotes several other organizations that are either run by Muslims or are sympathetic to Islam that denounce the critics of Islam as “Islamophobe”. In her opinion this is “evidence.” In Persian we have a saying: They asked the fox who will testify on your behalf, he said my tail. Or better than that is when Allah backs up Muhammad. Who gives a damn if Muslims and their minions call us hate monger? This is circular reasoning. I talk about facts and I have shown that we are not hate mongers, but Muslims are.
"in a discussion of sorts with Sheila Musaji of The American Muslim, who is an established liar."
Sheila, aka Pinocchia, who gets a daily nose job done with a chainsaw.
"When Allah backs up Muhammad" and plays the pimp!
http://crossmuslims.blogspot.com/2010/03/muhammads-aunt-la-tante-de-mahomet.html
You are a Muslim. You are genuinely incapable to see that we are humans first, and religion is nothing compared to the strong string of humanity that runs through the core of all of us and binds us together like the beads in a rosary.
Ali Sina has a poetic way with words. We as a humanity are indeed bound together "like the beads in a rosary" worldwide. But Islam cannot see that, keeping its head down in the lowest nether regions of base instincts rather than raising itself to the light of the beauty of humanity worldwide. Islam has made itself retrograde, devolutionary, while the world is evolving into a new awareness, natural human freedoms, our God given Human Rights. Let us leave Islam behind, stop coddling it, and let it die naturally, though it will not die gracefully.
The ingenious Ali Sina!
"That is because our Governments are misled. They consider Islam a religion and as such it is protected. That is why we formed SION (Stop Islamization Of Nations) to educate and to unmask Islam. Islam is not just a religion. It is more a political ideology of domination. It must be classified as such. It is more akin to communism and Nazism than it is to other faiths. Muhammad said al Islamo deenun wa dawla (Islam is both religion and government.) One cannot be separated from another. This is what people don’t know."
This skit captures it. As a forward I will say that the Religion of Peace, Islam, is a Piece of Religion (daily rituals) and much more of a military and political nature created by the lazy and objectively inferior to feel subjectively superior. That is why apostasy and blasphemy result in death.
Skit: RESIST ALLAH’s ARMY (RAA)
Two men have just come out of a bar and are shaking hands.
RUMP: See ya on the weekend. Take care.
MUTT: Yep, Resist Allah’s Army.
RUMP: Whatever… Look, you always say that. What about this religion of peace?
MUTT: Duh!
RUMP: OK man, (squirming) my hemorrhoids are killing me. Give me the ABC and make it fast.
MUTT: A is for apostasy. Leave Islam and they kill you—that’s desertion and treason in face of the enemy during war. B for blasphemy gets you death—challenging the chain of godly command. C for conquest—all infidels must be killed or dhimmified, hence the sentence for A and B. Now get going before you bleed to death.
They walk off in opposite directions. Rump stops and turns around.
RUMP: (yelling) Muuuutt!!!
Mutt stops and turns around.
RUMP:I get it!!!
MUTT: Yo!!!
RUMP: Resist Allah’s Army!!!
MUTT: RAA!!! RAA!!! RAA!!!
On the spirits that inform:
The West:
"I would not keep rubbed in a cage,
a wing that would be free."*
The East: "I will rub you out if you would be free."
*Edna St. Vincent Millay
Excellent.
The Left and the Muslims think alike. They both have the Entitlement Mentality: The Muslims are entitled to power and supremacy over Infidels, and they are entitled to their money via jizya; the Left is superior to the Rich, who are all criminals and speculators, and entitled to their money via higher taxes.
Between the two of them, they are wrecking the world through hatred, debt and violence.
Robert, what you wrote to that girl is profound and loving and an absolute good. You and I only know each other from here and some emails over the years, but it's stuff like this that makes me proud to call you my friend and tell people I know you, at least in cyber fashion.
We saw recently that another of the MoonBats was talking up The American Muslim - claiming, of course, that "moderate muslims" were challenging "extremists" like Awlaki and Choudary. So, using the internet data provided by Alexa, we compared the number of users that sites like The American Muslim get compared to, for example, CAIR or even radicalized British sites such as MPACUK. Here's the graph: http://4freedoms.ning.com/group/alinsky/forum/topics/blacklist-and-loonwatch?commentId=3766518%3AComment%3A95107&groupId=3766518%3AGroup%3A25697
The bottom line is: there are so few visitors to The American Muslim site, that Alexa cannot provide any visitor stats (which is not the case for the "extremist" sites). So, it really doesn't matter what The American Muslim says - visitor stats show that muslims greatly prefer CAIR to TAM.
Is the word "love" found in the koran at all?
If the Jews, the Catholics, the Protestants, the Hindus, the Humanists will recognise the menace of Islam and stand together faithful to their respective spiritual paths in their private family lives but at the same time accepting the saparation between their organisations (churches, synagogues, lodges, whatever) and public organs, then Islam will hit a Wall.
Whenever one is under presure by Islam the others should be on their side in opposing Islam as far as access and neutrality of public organs is concerned.
(However I am afraid some extremist Jew/Catholic/Protestant/Hindu/... will not follow up and break the circle where they feel they are the majority and can put pressure on the others in public life. Hope to be wrong.)
Yeah, Allah does not 'love' the unbelievers (Q 3:32).
Oh, there are other references to "love" in Koran, but most are self-serving of Allah, or his messenger Mohammad. I fear Mohammad carried the wrong message on love.
Thank you Ali Sina, you are a heroine and an inspiration capable of freeing countless away from the brutality and oppression of islam.
How about a name change:
"Stop the Islamization, Nazification, and Klanification of America" - SINKOA
Granted, those last 2 aren't in the ascendancy at the moment, but if they were, we would oppose them just as much....
This correctly lumps Islam with fellow supremacist hate groups and denies its status as a "religion." And criticizing SINKOA becomes "lending cover to Nazism and the Klan....."
Mahoundians will always libel us. They have no other option, otherwise they would admit that they're wrong, that's why they always take exception. SION is a great idea, we desperately need that sort of organisation. Islam is a worldwide problem and needs to be addressed worldwide. Robert do you remember, we were talking about that when you were in Stuttgart?
Guys, can you help out here before the thread closes?
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/01/recently-two-extraordinary-articles-have.html
I truly enjoy Sina's "way with words".
Along with Pamela and our beloved Robert, he is an inspiration to us all . . .
Highly, and I mean highly, instructive to go to Wikipedia's article on Ali Sina. Try it.
Do you mean the notice at the top?
I really enjoyed the rest of the article.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_Sina_(activist)
"Guys, can you help out here before the thread closes?"
I did. It was a pleasure.
Read the whole article by Sina, it's worth it:
http://alisina.org/ali-sina-vs-sheila-musaji/
Thanks, Tom. You done good.
That's a good one! If it is, I'm sure it's in an entirely islamic context...!
Article:
"If you live in your parent’s home, you need to live by their rules. Don’t keep a Bible at home and don’t have any cross or anything that may make them think you are a Christian. You don’t need to do any baptism either. Love of God is your baptism. Soon you will be out of your parent’s home and will be more independent."
___________________
This is very sound advice by Mr. Sina that should be taken to heart by Shakila (who has a thread up here currently). Though it may not exactly apply to her situation, the idea of "cloaking" one's conscience is not to be overly-disparaged, and in many instances, may be the difference between survival and, "something else"...
That is because our Governments are misled. They consider Islam a religion and as such it is protected. That is why we formed SION (Stop Islamization Of Nations) to educate and to unmask Islam. Islam is not just a religion. It is more a political ideology of domination. It must be classified as such.
*****************************
Take my comments as coming from someone who (a) recognizes the Jihadist danger, (b) will vote Nobama '012, (c) is all for Christian proselytization, since he is an Evangelical Christian, (d) respects Spencer, Geller, and Ali Sina, (e) gave at least two and a half cheers when Geert wilders was acquitted,(f) is bothered by the thunderous silence of the Muslim street when it comes to denouncing obvious Muslims wrongs, and, (g) as a Christian, believes Islam to be a lie.
Our governments are not misled. They are simply responsible for the safety of the citizens and aliens living under their respective jurisdictions; and beholden to Constitutional standards. While they can and do err (hence, I'm all for Constitutions, Bills of Rights, and various things that limit their powers and protect us commoners), they are also aware that not all Muslims are terrorists, and that while a law-abiding Muslim is living in the USA (as an American, I'm not going to speak for the UK, Canada, the Netherlands, or anyone else), he has all the protections of the due process clause and other Constitutional safeguards.
Further, and this is something we anti-Jihadis should keep in mind, "Muslims" covers everything from Jihadis to the young Somali lady mentioned in the post above. Throw the Jihadis in the clink and deport them if they're not citizens, by all means; but trat the rest with proper respect. By doing this, we may allow a lot of other people like the girl mentioned above to come out of the woodwork.
I seriously doubt that this Somali, or Rifqa Bary, or Nabeel Qureshi, or the Caner Brothers, or any of the growing number of Muslim background Christians popping up not only in the West but also in historically Muslim countries were drawn to Christ by someone shouting "Raghead! Camel jockey! Go back to Pakistan!" or throwing bricks at them. As I've argued elsewhere on many occasion, our Muslim neighbors must not see the Gospel as a club held over their heads, but as a gate through which they're invited to pass. I speak, of course, as a Christian; but perhaps my concern can be translated into some other ideology or group of ideologies.
Yes, the Southern Poverty Law Center has indeed become an ideological attack dog, trying to turn everyone who isn't its kind of PeeCee EmCee into a Klansman or worse. And I certainly agree that Pam Geller and Robert Spencer do not deserve susch attacks. But the follies of the SPLC or MSM should not be a call to attack Muslims willy-nilly, but to fight against the pernicious category of "hate crime" (as if there's such a thing as someone murdering his neighbor out of love or simple respect) and to re-instate the rights of free speech and free exercise of religion as fundamental to our political order.
It would be a wonderful time to remind the Left that its struggle for "free speech" at Berkeley back in the 1960's was a struggle to be foul-mouthed, while ours is a struggle to present historical truth, substantive knowledge, and political advocacy before the public. In this, our anti-Jihadi movement is far closer to the mind of the framers of our Constitution than the SPLC and ACLU.
And good for Ali Sina when he says, "Who gives a ---- when Muslims call us hate-monger?" Yes, it hurts when people lie about you. But, recently, someone near and dear to me who used to accuse me of being a racist and murderer of the earth for being a Christian has admitted that there's a lot attractive about Christianity. Maybe she'll soon be drawn to Christ--or so I pray. So, can you blame me for being just a little bit hopeful?
The "hate card" and outright lies are all the "other side" has. If the anti-Jihad crowd can overcome the "hate card", we will win.
In my opinion, overcoming the "hate card" should be the number one priority of the anti-Jihad, pro-freedom and human rights movement.
It is up to us to effectively communicate that we are on the side of truth, peace, freedom, human rights and love. We may never get that message across to certain people who refuse to listen, but we should be able to get that message across to a lot more people.
Everyone can help with this, not just the big names such as Robert Spencer, Ali Sina, Pamela Geller, et al. Every time we leave a comment on an article anywhere on the internet, for heaven's sake don't use hateful language! Avoid name-calling. Remember that we have the truth on our side, and that's all we need.
Anyone who writes on the anti-Jihad side who uses hateful language is damaging our position and playing into the other side's hand. Instead, let the pro-Jihad side expose themselves as haters.
Shri Babu Suseelan has tens of millions Hindus behind him. I want to remind through this web site that Suseelan has another job also on hand. Christian Missionaries is trying to finish Indian/Hindu culture by bribing the natives in India. We cannot allow it happen as they succeeded in Europe, North and South America and Africa.
Hello, this is Jihad Watch.
Find another website for your agenda.
ICan'tStandRMaddow,
Here's a post on love in the Qur'an.
Teri,
I agree.
Unfortunately, I don't think that's going to happen here. Robert is cool, but the comment section here has been a problem for years. And Ali Sina's rhetoric isn't helping. All Sheila Musaji has to do is sit back and collect quotes from Sina, and post them, to support her accusations of hate. And because of this, many people will overlook the important work Sina is doing in advocating freedom for apostates. Same thing with Pamela: The over-the-top rhetoric unfortunately overshadows everything else, and it's about all our opponents want to talk about.
Islam is a lie, so Sheila is always Musajing the truth!
Clown!
Uh, undaunted, I hope I'm not being dense, but I thought it was Ali Sina who wrote those words to that girl.
Foreign (probably dutch) woman mob raped in Tahrir Square, Cairo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISMLYXRA5dI
http://www.peopleofshambhala.com/2012/01/mob-rape-of-foreign-women-exposes-scale.html
ACLU report Nothing to Fear: Debunking the Mythical “Sharia Threat” to Our Judicial System 5/2011
What they don't understand is if we give latitude for Islamic law then in all fairness we have to allow American Indian law, the law of an eye for an eye, dog eat dog law. This leads to chaos and our system of Jurisprudence will begin to crumble.
Once we begin this slide and allow Islam to govern itself where do we stop? Honor Killing? Their system is not respectful of human and individual rights and disdains democracy. How do we know this? Read the newspaper and watch TV including their own streaming news which reaches to us day in and day out. if we allow that sort of law anyplace in our great nation the nation will become less than Jefferson and company had in mind as a free nation governed by a constitution and equality under the law. In short we shall lose the country as we know it. It will cease to the the country which our pioneer fathers died to clear that we might grow and nor will it be the democracy for which our fathers and brothers and have shed their blood to protect in the great wars.
If the islamic people want to come to America it must be to help its ideals and not seek to become a class apart from "Joe the Plumber" and others like him. When they are here it is probable they will be ask to take up arms in the face of the Islamic Brotherhood and if they are not willing to fight for this great nations then they must get on a bus, plane or boat and leave our country.
I am a vet and I love this country. I am also a Christian and love our Lord and i will not through threat of law or threat of persecution back down in the face of another faith foreign to our nation. we were founded as a nation under God and I shall not worship another. we must guarantee them freedom to worship their God, another God but in America Jesus will not ride in the back of the Bus.
PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN! How do we unite to protect our freedoms in the face of a false god and intellectual ignorance. The fools who profess themselves wise are indeed organizing to place our current conversation under the heading of a Hate Crime. UNITE NOW!
Islam was in America before our america government was est. They are hate site they meet the legal meaning of hate site, Robert books are inaccurate. If than person read the Koran than only see killing parts is being mislead by Allah I read the complete Koran two time already I see the parts that say we cannot percute the unbeliver or harm they religish builting. The part about killing the unbeliever was when the unbeliever in Mecca wage than war against the believer of Medine than lost that war it doesnot apply today.99.99% of the Mecca part of the Koran still apply today only the part about being allow to drink achole doesnot apply today.
DoI, the chief evidence for Islam in America before there was an American government is that back in the 17th century, an Egyptian named Nosredine who was resident in Nieuw Amsterdam (which was governed by hard-nosed Hervormde Christians at the time) got himself seized and burned to death by a bunch of Lenni Lenape Indians who thought he'd cheated them.
Observer,
Those links you post need to be posted prominently, far and wide. It is as an absolute disgrace that our leaders do nothing to hold Egypt accountable for the continued campaign of rape and sexual assault by Egyptian Muslim men
June 12 2011
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2011/06/egyptian-imam-when-i-want-a-sex-slave-i-just-go-to-the-market-and-choose-the-woman-i-like-and-purcha.html
Egyptian imam: "When I want a sex slave, I just go to the market and choose the woman I like and purchase her"
April 29, 2011
Egyptian Muslim men in mob, Rape of Lara Logan involved 200-300 men
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2011/04/lara-logan-they-really-enjoyed-my-pain-and-suffering-it-incited-them-to-more-violence.html#comments
Feb 18 2011
http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/articles/2009-Summer/full-Bachrach.html
Twice Branded: Western Women in Muslim Lands
Judy Bachrach
“Bet let’s start with Islam as it affects women in their home countries. Last year, in a poll of 2,000 Egyptian men, 62 percent admitted harassing women: an activity most of those interviewed insisted was not really their fault as their advances, however intemperate and offensive to their victims, had after all been provoked by the women themselves.”
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2011/02/world-wonders-at-harassment-of-women-in-egypt-after-assault-on-lara-logan.html
World wonders at harassment of women in Egypt after assault on Lara Logan
"According to a 2008 survey of 1,010 women conducted by the Egyptian Center for Women's rights, 98 percent of foreign women and 83 percent of Egyptian women have been sexually harassed."
Yes, CGW, the notice at the top.
The "hate card" and outright lies are all the "other side" has. If the anti-Jihad crowd can overcome the "hate card", we will win."
Well, good reasoning, OK. Yes, if "we" are counter-jihadists" and they are Muslims, than they do use the "hate card" and the writing and comments on "our" side against "us".
But ....
the real borders I see to freedom of speech are about inciting and condoning violence. And also harassing people in their homes, at their work, in the streets, with our message.
But our message is in public space which people can avoid if they wish. And people on "our" side who incite to violence and who harass others are indeed very counterproductive for us. But I think that "our" side already prohibits and disavows violent-inciting very clearly.
But in autocratic societies there is no freedom of speech. And when leaders and citizens do stupid and evil actions, then all other citizens are left with is the choice between: "respectful, non-hateful, polite protests", and if they do not work, then violent rebellion.
Now, in Democratic society, we have a third possibility in response to failing, stupid, evil leaders or other citizens; we can scold them, insult them! Perhaps worse than being respectful, but much better than violent reaction!
And it has advantages too; it allows "our" side to play "bad cop good cop". If there were no insulters on our side, then Muslims would balk at even the slightest perceived disrespectful comments by quite reasonable people. This was the case just after 9/11. Muslims would brook no criticism whatsoever, getting either angry or non-responsive to quite small perceived disrespectful writing and comments.
But now, we see many muslims getting more reasonable and willing to discuss criticism with those "in the middle", the "good cops" on our side.
Muslims, also those like Sheila Musaji, are trying to appease the good cops, and make them oppose the bad cops on divers Islam-related issues.
Yes, I think we have a great deal to thank our "bad cops"; Ali Sina, Pamela Geller, Robert Spencer and many others for, for making many Muslims more reasonable and "good cops" better respected and listened to.
No, I do not like insulting, emotional anti-Islam and anti-Muslim-talk either, but that it is happening is Democracy in Action and much to be preferred to either only-polite-protesting or violent rebellion.
DOI - How can Islam be established in America before the American Government?
Are you telling us that a single solitary Muslim is considered as an Islamic Government? Does that not mean Islam is a political system rather than a Religious one?
I have never heard that Muslims ever had an established Government anywhere in America and I know many American Indians would also dispute your claims. They were here long before anyone else (as Muslims and their apologists like to repeatedly tell us how bad we are for taking over the indians "country").
You say "If than person read the Koran than only see killing parts is being mislead by Allah I read the complete Koran two time already I see the parts that say we cannot percute the unbeliver or harm they religish builting." Do you understand what abrogate means? Do you know that 80% of Muslims worldwide know about Abrogation in the Quran since it speaks of it several times mentioning that phrases that occur later are more current than revelations that are given earlier? So this means the later violent verses are more current and relevant? How do you explain the recent rise in violent extremism in your religion? This is not a few misunderstood individuals but large organized groups lead by Islamic Scholars citing these later violent verses that are leading the rise in Islamic extremism. How do you then explain this?
I await your answer but I won't expect you to since you do your hit and run thing all the time.
The whole "Islam was in America before the American Government" thing is a very new revelation that has been proclaimed by Muslims in the last year or so.
I'm not sure exactly when it started by I can tell you what it is. It is the means by which Islamic Jihadists and their Apologists down to the lowly Muslim will then proclaim "defensive combat" against America.
By proclaiming that Islam was here first, they can then claim they are "defending" the rights of Muslims and Islam to be in America. This is how they think and what they believe. I have seen this pattern repeated in history. First Muslims move into an area, propogate then create some ridiculous claim that they were in that country first and this gives them the right to "defend" their Muslim land from the unbelievers. By doing this, they can proclaim they are defending their territory at which point they can use pity and the underdog status to beat down any opposition.
You know, I just don't think that strategy is going to work this time! History is definitely catching up to the mohammedans.
"Christian Missionaries is trying to finish Indian/Hindu culture by bribing the natives in India."
_______________________________________
Well, then either their faith is so weak as to be easily bribed, or "God sometimes works in mysterious ways".
Defender of Nothing:
"Islam was in America before our america government was est."
___
Oh, goodie! You finally, in your own charming way, answered a question I asked you a long time ago...
___________________________________________________________
"By the way, you livin' in America buddy?" (me)
"Crickets" (you, defender of nothing)
_______________________________________
Now we know. ("...before OUR america ((sic))...")
So; you actually are a seditionist, aren't you?
You gettin' SSI, DOI?
demsei,
The "hate card" is not about what is and is not protected speech. I agree that the prominent counter-jihadists have not crossed that line. However, the "hate card" is about what can be used against us to marginalize us and prevent the anti-jihad message from coming across better to the mainstream of America.
I think it is a good idea to have an international human rights group carrying the anti-jihad banner. However, to be taken seriously as a human-rights group, the prominent people involved need to come across as decent, mature people who don't go around name-calling. This does NOT mean that they should avoid telling the truth. The truth should NEVER be sacrificed. However, the truth can be told in a way that has a chance of going mainstream--or not.
I don't think it is so bad to have a few "bad cops" out there, too (so long as they don't cross the line about inciting or condoning violence). They do get people's attention. However, the "bad cops" aren't going to have much luck positioning themselves as human rights activists.
Right now, I think we need more people who come across as serious mature grown-ups. I put Robert Spencer in that category. Even with the whole Breivik fiasco, he is totally defensible, and I am glad he is putting himself out there on behalf of all of our freedom. Regarding Pamela Geller and Ali Sina--I think they are moving in the right direction. Time will tell. In any case, they both have done much to spread the word, whether they can come across as serious human rights activists or not. So I consider them both allies.
Teri,
While I understand the point you are trying to convey, I don't think we really need to focus on that issue to the point of not doing the important work.
What is the important work? Waking up enough Americans to what is happening in Europe and other parts of the world. Wake up enough people to what Jihad is, what Islam is (and is not) and get enough people aware of the true nature of Islam (not the Daw'ah that is inflicted on unsuspecting people).
Media organizations that have been bought into the Saudi Wahabbi line of thinking, the educational institutions that were bribed with Saudi money for Islamic studies chairs, and the Islamic apologists on the left certainly will NOT be in our corner no matter how nice we are. In my opinion it is a colossal waste of time to think this way.
I think it comes back to the Serenity Prayer in Christianity, "God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; the courage to change the things I can; and the wisdom to know the difference."
One question I ask for you. At one point do we accept that we cannot change some people's line of thinking and start taking action? Do we wait until the noose is around our neck before we start fighting? At this point it will be too late. This is the position Europe is in now. The noose is being slipped over their necks and right NOW they are finally starting to pass legislation to stop Sharia, but it may already be too late. Will we continue to play nice here in the US until we get to that point also?
If we look into history we can see that Christians are a very tolerant group. Christians underwent persecution on a large scale before they finally got the gravitas to fight back (the Crusades). When they did fight back, they essentially had to go against the teachings of Christ in order to fight the barbarian horde. Many priests absolved the Christian Crusaders of their "Sins" before they went off into battle to the horde. There are historical stories of Crusaders that waded into bodies stacked knee deep with blood flowing heavily of the vanquished foes.
Hopefully the US won't wait that long to wake up.
At least I now know I am in good company as a "Phobe" because in my case I don't condone any form of Pedophilia or child-abuse no matter the gender or faith.
But when I mention John Wayne Gacey, Wayne Williams, Geofrey Domars or the Catholic Church scandal ( that michael coren exposed several years back as a pedophile ring for men2boys sex) that are tied to same-gender rapes or murders....I become a Homophobe.
Now in canada the the Brown fenales being murdered under the control of muslim male relatives has be renamed by CAIR as Domestic-Violence and CAIR has their Fallback position to counter the homour killing questions with their favourite Whine....islamophobe-2001 that looks innocent in the bottle but once uncorked can kill you and has a staying power in the mouth for a really bad taste .
I've seen editted youtube videos where some Troll muslim must take parts form a video and reports them as New and make Pam look like an islamophobe , the video uses the current date for posting to get top billing by searchers while the actual video may be over one yaer old and out of context.
Alas...islam has enough useful-idiots that buy this crap and are too stupid to research the truth as they blindly accept what the quran says too because if a muslim says something....it must be true.
Innocent until proven non-muslims.
Know islam - NO Peace
NO islam - KNOW Peace.
Teri,
Again, you are 100% correct in my opinion.
If this change is to happen though, I don't think it's likely to happen here. It's going to have to occur in the context of a new website, whose authors and/or directors see this as a critical issue.
(And to be clear I'm not objecting to Robert or Marisol here; rather it is associates like Geller and Sina and some others who are the rhetorical loose cannons who would need to rethink their way of communicating, in this respect).
To paraphrase Ronald Regan:-
Democracy and freedom are never more than one generation from extinction.
We do not pass them to our children in the bloodstream.
They to be fought for, cherised like a loved one and handed on for them to do the same.
Otherwise, in our twilight years, we in the West will be telling our grandchildren of the good old days when there was no sharia Law, freedom and tolerance reigned and unfettered citizens were encouraged to speak their minds.
Kinana of K,
Agreed. It is a pity that I have to work for a living etc. I have actually started writing a book that specifically addresses the "hate card" issue, since, again, that's really all the other side has. The reality is that a person who has the most heart-felt sympathy for the truly suffering, if informed, is going to be on our side. Not out of hate for Muslims but out of love for humanity, including Muslims.
It is really ironic that this post is entitled "Pamela Geller and her organizations don’t become hate groups just because a bunch of moon-bats say so". Someone else could just as easily write a post entitled "People Aren't Moon Bats Just Because Ali Sina Says So". Sigh. Ad hominem attacks are the last thing we need, in my opinion. And it isn't that I'm ungrateful toward Ali Sina--far from it. It's just that sooner or later we need to get the mainstream, and this isn't how to do it.
Wri,
We may just have to disagree on this one. It isn't that I don't think we have to get attention. It's that we need to get attention in ways that do not marginalize us.
you wrote for Ali Sina a 'heroine' instead a 'hero' Ali is he.
Thanks for the correction. He has done so much for the cause of women under islam, I had assumed Ali was a woman.