Why can't Muslims debate? (Again)

Although in this post I recount personal experiences, it isn't really a personal story. Virtually every non-Muslim who has ever engaged an Islamic supremacist in discussion or debate will have the same experience. The Islamic supremacist will:


  • Charge the non-Muslim with ignorance.

  • Charge the non-Muslim with dishonesty.

  • Engage in often quite vicious personal attacks against the non-Muslim.

  • Repeatedly fail to restate or summarize the non-Muslim's position accurately.

  • Never actually prove his claims either about the non-Muslim's arguments, or about Islam itself.


It has long been established that Islamic supremacists and their Leftist allies will not debate me -- here, for example, is a long list that still comprises only some of those who have rejected my invitation to do so. Universally they claim that the reason for this is that I am so obviously evil, mendacious and moronic that debating me would be fruitless and unnecessary: the falsehood of what I say is supposed to be self-evident to all people of good will, and in any case I am too stupid and dishonest to engage.

The problem with this is rather obvious: many of the same Islamic supremacists who have rejected my invitation to debate and/or dialogue, such as Hamas-linked CAIR's Ibrahim Hooper and the American Society for Muslim Advancement's Daisy Khan, refer to me frequently in the front line of those they term "Islamophobes." In other words, they and others recognize that my views have a certain degree of influence: I have bestselling books, a website in the top 100 at Technorati, etc. If, then, they or someone else from among their party actually did debate me and win, it would go a long way toward substantiating their broad-based and oft-repeated claims that what I say about Islam and jihad is inaccurate, and do a great deal to lessen the influence that I do have by genuinely impugning the "credibility" that Muslim emailers are forever telling me I do not have.

A frequent claim is that this job has already been done by one or more of the websites that are devoted to "exposing" my "lies," but when I've stopped by those sites all I've seen them do is call me names, publish windy essays about how Christianity is more violent than Islam and how non-Muslim terrorism is a far greater problem than Islamic terrorism, and then spend a great deal of time thumping their chest about how they have vanquished the evil Spencer. This sort of thing is fun for awhile -- it's incongruous and amusing to see myself as loathed and feared as Darth Vader -- but it doesn't really accomplish any of the heavy lifting that Hamas-linked CAIR and others like to claim that it has: these sites, as antisemitic and pro-jihad as they are, hardly have the credibility that they so vociferously deny to me, and so we're back to square one.

So lately on Twitter I've received Tweets from numerous Muslims who come in with guns blazing, so to speak -- full of claims that I'm lying, ignorant, and evil. Since that is easier to claim than it is to prove, in every case I've asked for proof of the charge, and invited them to debate.

Most of the time I got no substantive response. Occasionally I got various statements I made that were supposed to be false, but when I defended my position, there was no give-and-take, just personal attacks from the one charging me with falsehood. And none of the Muslims who took the time to write and berate me -- not one out of around eight or ten different writers -- took up my offer to debate.

Sometimes they tangled themselves in knots as they avoided doing so. For example, an Islamic supremacist hate site that defames me and lies about what I say regularly charged that I was refusing to debate them:

Loonwatch1.jpg

I responded by repeating yet again something I had reiterated several times in the preceding weeks, when other Muslims had thrown up this site to me:

Loonwatch2.jpg

No response to that at all. Meanwhile, a certain Haroon Moghul, who teaches Middle East, South Asia, and African Studies at Columbia University, demonstrated his faulty grasp of the Western intellectual tradition by charging that there was something wrong with my wanting to debate in the first place:

MoghulDebate.jpg

That's right: one falsely claimed that I was running from debate, while the other claimed that my wanting a debate was itself wrong. Welcome to the twilight world of Islamic supremacists, where reality is whatever makes Muslims look good and kuffar look bad, no matter what contradictions may be entailed. And so enter Caner K. Dagli, Assistant Professor, Department of Religious Studies, College of the Holy Cross, Worcester, MA, a particularly nasty and abusive character whose ad hominem attacks were so vile that I blocked him on Twitter several months ago. He popped up again (not sure how that block thing works on Twitter) with new charges, which I pointed out that he hadn't substantiated. He told me that he had already done so:

Dagli2.jpg

I then realized that I hadn't seen his Tweets for months because of the block, so I removed it and read back in his Twitter feed. I found them, and answered his charges, whereupon he wrote:

Dagli3.jpg

I was, of course, not actually asking him to repeat anything, as my responses to his Tweets were entirely new, since I hadn't seen what he had written before. But since he blocked me then, that was the end of that. Dagli added a Nazi-like coda reminiscent of Qur'an 9:28, which declares that unbelievers are unclean:

Dagli4.jpg

Meanwhile, other Muslims claimed they wanted to debate me, but never followed up on my invitation to email me and set a topic, date and venue -- including "Dr. Marranci" and others who had just moments before been crowing about how they would mop the floor in debate with a Satanic ignoramus such as I (to borrow Khaleel Mohammed's lapidary phrase).

And so we come to the heart of the matter: why can't Muslims debate? Is it really because I kick dogs, snarl at children, and eat nails for breakfast? Of course not. Nor is it because I tar all Muslims with the same brush and claim they're all terrorists, since I don't in fact, as any honest person who has actually read my work can attest. So the real reason why no Muslims will debate me is this:

They know that what I say about Islam and jihad is true, and don't want that fact to be illustrated to a wider audience.

Why can't Muslims debate? Because the truth is something they don't generally wish the Infidels to know. So they do all they can to shut down those Infidels by other means.

There is an ancillary reason also: Islam doesn't encourage critical thinking. It has no natural theology, only a series of laws declared by fiat. In some contemporary forms of Islam, hardly any premium is put on reasoning -- after all, the Qur'an itself warns Muslims not to question (5:101). Consequently, even superficially intelligent Islamic supremacists such as Reza Aslan and Ibrahim Hooper are abjectly incapable of building a cogent intellectual argument and defending it. All they and so many others like them can do, as is clear from their track record, is heap abuse upon those who oppose them.

And all the while, the Organization of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) works at the UN to compel Western states to criminalize criticism of Islam. It's all of a piece: if you can't refute the other guy, you can at least shout him down and bully him into silence.

UPDATE: Must not paint with a broad brush, doncha know: I didn't mean to suggest that no Muslims would debate me. A good many have done so, including the delightful Moustafa Zayed twice. Grab some popcorn and enjoy these videos if you haven't already seen them:

It was because of Zayed and a few others that the good folks over at American Muslim raised the white flag: Cowards: The American Muslim begs Muslim leaders to stop debating Robert Spencer

UPDATE: "Danios of Loonwatch," a purveyor of pretentious puffery at the Islamic supremacist hate site Loonwatch, saw this post and, after several days, finally got around to acknowledging that I had actually accepted his debate challenge. Then, however, consistent with his previous cowardice, he made a number of demands and stipulations. He wanted to make the debate center on the flimsy, windy and irrelevant tu quoque arguments he advances at his hate site. I countered with other proposals. Rather than continue the discussion and negotiation, however, he retreated and resumed his smears. Apparently I was supposed to play the compliant dhimmi and accept all his proposals without question. Not surprising.

And still it remains so: Leftist and Islamic supremacist enemies of freedom fear to debate me, not because I am such a formidable debater, but because I tell the truth, and they know it. Defamation is all they have, since they can't counter the truths I tell.

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Why can't Muslims debate?

They can't because they won't,

or

They won't because they can't.

The truth about islam is killing islam, and muslims are besides themselves as more Westerns learn the truth about islam and muslim tricks to deceive.

All of this will be unavailing. When name calling is all you got, you're not winning,

It is the single-idea, islamic-ricochet pin-balling inside the skull of the believer that pulverizes any other cognitive process.

I must clarify that I'm certainly not suggesting that islamic pin balls are cognition or even pre-cognition neuronic enablers.

My experience with debating muslims is that they always try to change the subject and put you on the defensive. For example istead of answering the question asked they will try to ask the same question back, but in reference to Christianity and never answer the original question itself. I find that the best way to deal with that is to tell them either 1) that irregardless of whether or not Christianity is true islam has to establish it's own validity independantly and, therefore, I don't debate them on Christiany or 2) I tell them that I would debate them with regard to Christianity at another time, but this conversation is about islam.

Let's not forget:

"Problems with translation"

and

"Taken out of context"

These catch-all comebacks that can be employed at any time, under any circumstance, for any occasion.

And add a smathering of hatred, and you can kiss any good debate good-bye! ..something that many muslims are not in short supply of.

Muslims, even supremacist ones, are sometimes willing to debate people who are highly critical of Islam and are very tough debaters. For example David Wood and Sam Shamoun.

Here are some video debates of Shamoun and Wood against Muslim opponents.

Nadir Ahmed vs. David Wood: "Does Islam Promote Violence Towards Non-Muslims?"

Omar Bakri & Shah Jalal Hussain vs. Sam Shamoun & David Wood: "Who Was Muhammad?"

Sam Shamoun vs. Nadir Ahmed: “Is Islam a Religion of Peace?”

Still more debates here.

Robert:

I think it's your methodology. Which is generally "straight-forward" which "turns them off". When I debate Muslims, I generally take time to speak about Islam in a general framework (i.e., mentioning Praying, Fasting, Dhul-Hujjah etc.) and then the Muslim asks rather stupidly: "So... why are you learning about Islam." It's obvious that they want you to say لا إله إلا الله محمد رسول الله, but they won't press it until you unravel some of the "disheartening" aspects of Islam.

As an example, one Pakistani Muslim I talked to. I had known him for a few months prior and I started talking about the incident of the Uraina' tribe needing "medicine" from the Prophet. That is when the tribe, after drinking camel milk and urine, allegedly killed Muhammad's Shepherds. Thereafter, Muhammad put out their eyes, cut off their limbs and crucified them. That's when Qur'an 5:33 was revealed.

http://altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=86&tSoraNo=5&tAyahNo=33&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2

He was in shock! He had never heard this and I urged him that I would provide the Hadeeth that was in question, and did so.

I also mentioned the divide between Sunni-Shia, how Muhammad was poisoned by Aisha' according to Shia, and a Jew according to Sunnis. Also, how the Shia call Aisha' a Kafir. Also, how Sunnis call 'faithful' Shia "Rawafid" and "Majoos" whereas the Shia call the 'faithful' Sunnis "Wahhabi's", "Bakris", "Nawasib" and whatnot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_BTRdxEJaE

http://answering-islam.org/Silas/mo-death.htm

He never heard these things before, and I urged him to look it up on Youtube, which he did... It was a few days ago, so I have yet to receive any correspondence.

In any case, it's good to employ "Gradualism" in trying to fork it to Muslims.

Please, please, please, since you carry the name of my favorite captain, do not use the word "irregardless." There is no such word. Regardless means without regard. The prefix "ir" means not. It's worse than using a double negative.

"Why can't Muslims debate? Because the truth is something they don't generally wish the Infidels to know."

And that's the truth...

It is disheartening that American universities are in such dire need of educators that they must hire puerile supremacists.

However, I am not kidding myself. They are hired at the same time the generous donations from the house of Saud hit the universities' bank accounts.

What I really want to know is if all the ones hiring these subtle jihadists are so far sighted that they cannot foresee the damage they are doing to their country and eventually their own children of if they just don't care?

The thing about debating musloids, I've noticed, is even when their arguments have been utterly shattered they still thump their chests in victory.

They are so disconnected from reality that even when they get backed into a corner and refuse to answer because any answer be it the truth or a lie would look bad for their stance they STILL claim victory.

Every day I become more and more convinced that they are so psychologically different from the average psychologically healthy Western adult that it is impossible to find any middle ground, any compromise, any peace with them.

We'd have better luck trying to teach snakes how to ride bikes.

Since after I said "irregardless", which is apparently an incorrect prefix-suffix combo, I said "whether or not" so the double negative didn't influence the outcome of the meaning of the sentence, but I'll take note for future use.

"The truth about islam is killing islam...."

Yes, it is.

.

Robert,

If they could prove you wrong, they would prove you wrong. But that, as we know, is impossible. You didn't invent the evidence against Islam; you exposed it. The evidence has been there all along, for everyone to see.

Muslims cannot debate because they're up against irrefutable evidence.

Islam is evil; nothing will ever change that.

Islam: where freedom ends and slavery begins.

please visit https://e-paa.org/support-us . Its a Pakistani atheists and agnostic org.

Read some great testimonials from Pakistanis. You won't be disappointed they will love your support.


Currently , some Muslims have the luxury of being interviewed by the useful idiots too stupid to question any of the Taqqiyah or even demand that the muslim proves their claims that islam=peace.

So for now , the taqqiyah masters can lie like a prayer-rug and have no fear of being called-out because the leftists/Liberals have a shared-enemy with the islamic supremacy thugs that BOTH hate the West and hate true Freedoms for ALL Americans .
But these fools may one day end-up on the dull edge of the knife that will saw off their head once they fullfill their purpose by the Muslim Brotherhood or Hamas-linked CAIR/CAIR-canada. The Social-media and Global 24/7 news has exposed the true face of islam and the OIC groups which make-up well above the 50% view of all muslims on Earth.
CAIR can no longer claim that a Few misunderstanders should not be used to define the Majority on all Muslims, BUT Mr.Hooper.....it's my job or my onus to prove anything about islam and muslims because the label of PEACE used by muslims is now on islam to prove it ,and NOT the non-muslims to prove a negative like CAIR's rants to to ask people to prove islam isn't about peace.

The trick used by CAIR and the Brotherhood thugs in canada is to avoid telling the CBC or Toronto STAR paper what islam defines as "Innocent Civlians" , or what islam defines as PEACE because the Quran and muhammed deem peace as a time when all non-muslims are dead and purged from the Earth because there will be no more Wars once evryone is a muslim under islam and Shariah law.
Hooper fails to explain the murders and pedophilia today within those islamic nation or 99.4% muslims populations like Afghanistan that has been a hell-hole for so long not even muhammed would want to live there today .

Sorry, irregardless is a word:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/irregardless

"Irregardless originated in dialectal American speech in the early 20th century. Its fairly widespread use in speech called it to the attention of usage commentators as early as 1927. The most frequently repeated remark about it is that “there is no such word.” There is such a word, however. It is still used primarily in speech, although it can be found from time to time in edited prose. Its reputation has not risen over the years, and it is still a long way from general acceptance. Use regardless instead."

It does exist, you're right, but it's not a proper word. It's like "aint It should never be accepted into the English lexicon because the prefix ir and the suffix less cancel each other out.

http://public.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/irregardless.html

"Regardless of what you have heard, “irregardless” is a redundancy. The suffix “-less” on the end of the word already makes the word negative. It doesn’t need the negative prefix “ir-” added to make it even more negative."


I'm still upset that aint is now found in English dictionaries and "irregardless" is one of my pet peeves. It's like scratching a chalkboard. :)


I aint going to use "irregardless" then.

:) Good but you can use aint because, sadly, it's in the dictionary now.

Thanks, Istanbul_Chick, I noticed that, too. The term "irregardless" makes my skin crawl, but I refrained from correcting the writer. However, since you already have done so, I will second your sentiment. Whether the non-word is in a second-rate dictionary or not. Peace.

By the way, ain't is spelled with an apostrophe. Ain't ain't aint. Thanks.

The problem for apologists of Islam is that the entire Islamic belief system is flawed from the start; Al Qur'an is a plagiarized man made document, their self-appointed 'prophet' was a murderer and a kiddy-fiddler, the history of Islam is one of violence against and the subjugation of non-Muslims, and their historical jihad against Israel with the aim of committing genocide against the Jews is utterly unacceptable in a civilized world.

It's an impossible position to defend, and a very easy one to attack.

These clowns and their dubious 'religion' are never going to be taken seriously by right thinking people!

Istanbul_Chick,
Teaching a snake to ride a bike! That's a great image.

By the way, folks, in my earlier, unclearly written comment, when I referred to "very tough debaters," I meant David Wood and Sam Shamoun, not their Muslim debate opponents.

Maybe the reason some Muslims shy from debate is that they fear to find discrepancies in the Qur'an, since the Qur'an itself says that would mean it is not from God.

Qur'an 4:82:

Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy.

"Virtually every non-Muslim who has ever engaged an Islamic supremacist in discussion or debate will have the same experience."

Yes, I have detected the same pattern and found it articulated by Bill Warner in the Epilogue to his Quran translation:

Logic

The Koran advances a logical system. Truth is determined by revelation. No fact or argument may refute the Koran. Logical persuasion is based upon repetition and continued assertion. Another part of the persuasion is personal attacks against those who resist Islam. The Koran advances its argument through threats against specific people and groups. If persuasion fails, then force may be used to settle the logical or political argument.

Another aspect of Koranic logic is the use of name-calling and personal insults to advance the truth. The Koran, with its poetical language and repeated threats and physical violence, bases its logic on emotions. Although its intellectual truth can be contradictory, the contradictions do not need to be resolved. Understanding apparent contradictions is a key to understanding Islamic logic. In unitary logic, a contradiction shows the theory or argument to be false. But in the Koran, a contradiction does not prove an argument to be false. What appears to be logical contradictions are statements of duality that offer two true choices, depending upon the circumstances. This is dualistic logic.

How do we know the Koran is true? Because it contains the words of Allah. How do we know that these are the words of Allah? Mohammed said they were Allah's words. How do we know that Mohammed is Allah's messenger? Mohammed reported that Allah said that Mohammed is His messenger.

Read more in my review at FFI:

http://www.faithfreedom.org/features/book-review/book-review-a-simple-koran-and-an-abridged-koran-from-the-center-for-the-study-of-political-islam/

Re Caner Dagli,

I've come across some disturbing comments made by this fellow,, and I'm following up on them. For now, though, I will note this:

I was listening to one of his talks (see the link below), recorded in 2010, and during the Q and A session in response to a question about just war theory etc., he got onto the subject of bin Laden. At about the 14:50 mark and forward, he claimed that what bin Laden says about the Islamic jurisprudence of war is "ludicrous," but that what bin Laden says about "foreign policy" is "correct."

That's quite a statement. I'd like to see Dagli explain how he thought bin Laden's (or bin Laden's views on) foreign policy, was (were) "correct."

Also during the talk, well before the Q and A session, Dagli dismissed topics such as jizya. He also waved off talk about the second-class status of dhimmis as "quibbling." My question: From whose perspective would objections to the second-class or inferior status of dhimmis be viewed as "quibbling"?

http://vimeo.com/24582737
Part 2
"Caner Dagli concludes his presentation, "The Laws of War and Religious Conversion in the Qur'an" and discusses with the audience (continued in the next clip)."

BTW, Caner Dagli has Loonwatch, Tariq Ramadan, and SunniPath, among others, on his blogroll, just to give you some idea of his point of view.

"Irregarless" is informal and technically incorrect, but I followed it with "whether or not" so contextually it was not incorrect.

The grammar Nazis need to chill. It's just a comment page on the internet, not a peer reviewed, published journal.

Who knew that such an unassuming man with a gentle smile and neatly trimmed beard would strike such terror in the hearts of those who proclaim they are not afraid of martyrdom...unless said "martyrdom" involves public discourse with Robert Spencer.

In those videos Moustafa Zayed seems to have a very subjective definition of what an authoratative source is. If it agreed with HIS statment it was authoratative, if it disagreed then it was not authoratative. Besides, the whole concept that non-muslims must pay a tax to muslims to practice his or her religion in and of itself proves that islam teaches the subjegation on non-muslims. It's offensive on it's face. Moustafa Zayed's whole stance is offensive on the matter.

I find Muslimas to be the worst, from personal experience: the abusiveness, ad hominem, invectives etc etc are far worse that I have received from anyone else. I only need to question on of their claims, and BOOOM .....they are off.
I feel uncomfortable with this odd behavior, and with arguing against made up accusations, and always break it off at this point. Usually they consider this a victory.

By the way: anyone else wondering about opponents who may or may not have disappeared with the demise of the late Jameela Barnette?

Robert, if you were a Muslim supremacist with every aspect of your existence dependant upon the dustbowl ideology - would you debate you?

Robert,

Why do you waste time debating low level muslims like them?

They clearly lack the mental capacity to talk rationally.

Btw, I think I found the right way to debate a muslim & this would keep their head spinning, they never recovered from this if executed well.

1. Get them to confirm that you the quran was complete and unedited.

2. Challenge them the process of compiling the quran.

Of course, there are more details, but this itself invalidates any claim they have about islam.

islam therefore failed.

Since my name is mentioned in this post and among those whom do not want to debate with Mr Spencer, for correctness, I wish to inform you that we are in contact by email and trying to find the best way (due to the fact that we live in two different continents) to have the debate sometimes in February--you can read this from the twitter discussion.

I look forward to the debate and I deeply thank Mr Robert Spencer for his time and effort to organize such a debate.

with regards

Dr Gabriele Marranci
http://www.marranci.wordpress.com

The problem I've found with debating muslims, and it's not just muslims it's just especially true with them, is that many will argue (metaphorically) that a lamp post is a fish if they think it will justify what they want to be true. No matter how much evidence you bring them that indead the object is a lamp post and not a fish they will still argue that it is a fish because they want to validate their belief so badly. Essentially these people have decided to believe something and will make any rational to justify that belief. Again, it's not just muslims who do this, but they are definitely some of the worst.

Caner Dagli made a false statement claiming Muhammad never killed anyone* for mere blasphemy (i.e., insulting or criticizing Muhammad). But in fact, the hadiths and the Sira record that Muhammad did order some people killed for mere insult, e.g., "the two singing girls" who had sung mocking lyrics about him. In addition, Muhammad approved of the vigilante killing of a woman who had insulted Muhammad.

*That is, since Muhammad was a leader and not a warrior or assassin himself, Dagli's underlying claim is more precisely that Muhammad never ordered or permitted anyone to be killed for mere blasphemy, and never ordered a policy of killing mere blasphemers.

Here's what Caner Dagli said (my emphasis):

"While on the topic, why do some (very small number of) Muslims think they need to kill someone who insults the Prophet? There is no evidence in the least that this ever happened in the first generation. The Prophet was insulted routinely by the idolaters in Makkah and the Hypocrites in Madinah. It is mentioned frequently in the Quran. They called him mad, a liar, possessed, childless, of low social standing, a mere poet. Moses and Aaron were insulted. In fact the Quran teaches that every prophet was insulted by his people. Were these people killed for making fun? Again, show me an example.
The Quran does not call for retribution for insults, only for crimes against life and property. If someone can show me one example of a person being executed by the Prophet for insulting him, I would like to see it.

http://www.muslimcomment.com/blog/2010/04/16/denying-the-gas-chambers-vs-blasphemous-danish-cartoons/

Examples in rebuttal:

---The "singing girls," one of whom was killed, the other who embraced Islam (i.e., forced conversion)...and some others mentioned in Ishaq.

Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 14, Number 2678:
"Narrated Sa'id ibn Yarbu' al-Makhzumi: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: on the day of the conquest of Mecca: There are four persons whom I shall not give protection in the sacred and non-sacred territory. He then named them. There were two singing girls of al-Maqis; one of them was killed and the other escaped and embraced Islam."

"The messenger of God [Mohammed] had instructed his commanders to refrain from doing battle against any except those who fought them. He did, however, order that a group whom he named should be put to death, even if they were found hiding beneath the hangings of the Ka'ba. [Abd-Allah] had two female singers, Fartana and a friend, who would sing songs mocking the messenger of God and the Muslims. This is why the messenger of God condemned him and the two singers to death. He was killed while he clutched the hangings of the ka'ba. One of his women singers was killed, while the other one was granted clemency." (Ibn Kathir, The Life of the Prophet Mohammed, Vol. III, pages 402- 403)

Ishaq, p. 550-551. (On the conquest of Mecca, other persons whom Muhammad ordered to be killed)
"Another was 'Abdullah b. Khatal of B. Taym b. Ghalib. He had become a Muslim and the apostle sent him to collect the poor tax in company with one of the Ansar. He had with him a freed slave who served him. (He was a Muslim). When they halted he ordered the latter to kill a goat for him and prepare some food, and went to sleep. When he woke up the man had done nothing, so he attacked and killed him and apostatized. He had two singing-girls Fartana and her friend who used to sing satirical songs about the apostle, so he ordered that they should be killed with him.
"Another was al-Huwayrith b. Nuqaydh b. Wahb b. 'Abd b. Qusayy, one of those who used to insult him in Mecca.
"Another was Miqyas b. Hubaba because he had killed an Ansari who had killed his brother accidentally, and returned to the Quraysh as a polytheist. And Sara, freed slave of one of the B. 'Abdu'l-Muttalib; and 'Ikrima b. Abu Jahl. Sara had insulted him in Mecca. As for 'Ikrima, he fled to the Yaman. His wife, Umm Hakim d. al-Harith b Hisham became a Muslim and asked immunity for him and the apostle gave it. She went to the Yaman in search of him and she brought him to the apostle and he accepted Islam. (Tabari, 1640. 'Ikrima used to relate, according to what they say, that what turned him to Islam when he had gone to the Yaman was that he had determined to cross the sea to Abyssinia and when he found a ship the master said, 'O servant of God, you cannot travel in my ship until you acknowledge that God is one and disavow any rival to Him, for I fear that if you do not do so we should perish.' When I asked if none but such persons was allowed to travel in his ship, he replied, 'Yes, and he must be sincere.' So I thought: Why should I leave Muhammad when this is what he has brought us? Truly our God on the sea is our God on the dry land. Thereupon I recognized Islam and it entered into my heart.) 'Abdullah b. Khatal was killed by Sa'id b. Hurayth al-Makhzumi and Abu Barza al-Aslami acting together. Miqyas was killed by Numayla b. 'Abdullah, one of his own people. Miqyas's sister said of his killing:
'By my life, Numayla shamed his people
And distressed the winter guests when he slew Miqyas.
Whoever has seen a man like Miqyas
Who provided food for young mothers in hard times.'
As for Ibn Khatal's two singing-girls, one was killed and the other ran away until the apostle, asked for her immunity, gave it to her. Similarly, Sara, who lived until in the time of 'Umar a mounted soldier trod her down in the valley of Mecca and killed her. Al-Huwayrith was killed by Ali."


---another example:
Ishaq, p. 597
“When the Apostle arrived (at Medina) after his departure from al-Ta’if Bujayr b. Zuhayr b. Abu Sulma wrote to his brother Ka'b telling him that the apostle had killed some of the men in Mecca who had satirized and insulted him and that the Quraysh poets who were left--Ibn al-Ziba'ra and Hubayra b. Abu Wahb--had fled in all directions.”

---prophet Muhammad sets precedent for all time (33:21), permits vigilante killing of blasphemer, the slave woman who used to verbally "abuse" the prophet:

Partial Translation of Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 38:
Prescribed Punishments (Kitab Al-Hudud)
Book 38, Number 4348:
"Narrated Abdullah Ibn Abbas:
A blind man had a slave-mother who used to abuse the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and disparage him. He forbade her but she did not stop. He rebuked her but she did not give up her habit. One night she began to slander the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and abuse him. So he took a dagger, placed it on her belly, pressed it, and killed her. A child who came between her legs was smeared with the blood that was there. When the morning came, the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) was informed about it.
He assembled the people and said: I adjure by Allah the man who has done this action and I adjure him by my right to him that he should stand up. Jumping over the necks of the people and trembling the man stood up.
He sat before the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and said: Apostle of Allah! I am her master; she used to abuse you and disparage you. I forbade her, but she did not stop, and I rebuked her, but she did not abandon her habit. I have two sons like pearls from her, and she was my companion. Last night she began to abuse and disparage you. So I took a dagger, put it on her belly and pressed it till I killed her.
Thereupon the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Oh be witness, no retaliation is payable for her blood."
Book 38, Number 4349:
Narrated Ali ibn AbuTalib:
"A Jewess used to abuse the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and disparage him. A man strangled her till she died. The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) declared that no recompense was payable for her blood."

Assessment by a Muslim source:
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/111252/dhimmi
Excerpt, regarding the above hadith:
"Narrated by Abu Dawood (4361) and others. In the answer to question no. 103739 we have explained that the basis of this story is saheeh and that it has been narrated in several versions which, when taken together, indicate that the incident did indeed take place, despite the variations in some reports."
"This woman was not killed because she was a dhimmi, rather it was because she reviled the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), so she deserved to be executed for that reason, and if she was a Muslim, she became a kaafir by this action, and deserved to be executed for that reason too."
[...]
Al-San’aani (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:
This report indicates that the one who reviles the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) is to be executed and no blood money is to be paid for him; if he is a Muslim his reviling of him (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) is apostasy for which he deserves to be executed. Ibn Battaal said: without being asked to repent.
Subul al-Salaam (3/501).
We have previously quoted the view of Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah concerning the confusion about this story in which the blind man killed this woman – who deserved to be killed – without the permission of the ruler. Please see the answer to question no. 103739.
"This story is indicative of the justice with which the Muslims dealt with the people of the Book, which was enjoined in the sharee’ah of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), who was a mercy to the worlds. The rights of the Jews who are under Muslim rule are guaranteed and protected, and it is not permissible to transgress against them by causing them any annoyance or harm. Hence when the people found a Jewish woman who had been killed they were alarmed and referred the matter to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), who had made the covenant with them and guaranteed them security, and who did not take the jizyah from them. He got angry and adjured the Muslims by Allaah to find out who had done this deed, so that he could determine his punishment and judge his case. But when he found out that she had transgressed the covenant several times by reviling the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and impugning him, she forfeited all her rights and deserved the hadd punishment of execution which is imposed by sharee’ah on everyone who reviles the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), whether he is a Muslim, a dhimmi or a mu’aahid (non-Muslim living under Muslim rule), because impugning the status of the Prophets is kufr or disbelief in Allaah the Almighty, and a transgression of every sacred limit and right and covenant, and a major betrayal which deserves the greatest punishment."
"See: Ahkaam Ahl al-Dhimmah (3/1398); and on our site please see the answer to question no. 22809.
This is the correct understanding of this story. It is not as many of those who hate and revile sharee’ah rule and slander the character of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) did not choose to kill her in this manner, but because she deserved to be executed as a hadd punishment for breaking the covenant and reviling the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), he did not demand qisaas from her killer. She had said to him many things reviling the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), time after time, and he told her to stop but she did not stop, and he rebuked her but she paid no heed, until he could no longer bear it and he silenced the voice that insulted his religion and his Prophet."


---general ruling on blasphemy:

http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/misc/alshifa/pt4ch1sec2.htm
Translated by Aisha Abdarrahman Bewley
Part Four
The judgements concerning those who think the Prophet imperfect or curse him
“Section Two. The proof of the necessity of killing anyone who curses the Prophet or finds fault with him”

“We have already mentioned the consensus. As for the traditions, al-Husayn ibn 'Ali related from his father that the Messenger of Allah said in respect of this matter,

"Whoever curses a Prophet, kill him. Whoever curses my Companions, beat him."[7]”
http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/misc/alshifa/pt4ch1notes.htm - 7
http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/misc/alshifa/pt4ch1sec2.htm

"Whosoever disputes a single verse of the Qur'an, strike off his head."[16] "Hadith," Ibn Maja, Sunan Ibn I Majah (Lahore, 1995), Arabic with English translation by M. Tufail Ansari, Bab al-Hudud, Al-Islam.com, accessed July 5, 2006. Cited here: http://www.meforum.org/article/1000
Why Do Muslims Execute Innocent People?
The article at the above link discusses some more examples of blasphemers, heretics, persecuted reformers.

Abul Kasem cites numerous examples and interpretations indicating that the Sunnah calls for the death penalty for blasphemy, see the section "Annoy Muhammad and you annoy Allah—get beheaded" for example interpretations.
http://islam-watch.org/AbulKasem/BismiAllah/10a.htm

Shia interpretation:
http://shiaonline.wordpress.com/apostasy-and-blasphemy-in-islam/
A Synthesis of the Islamic Law of Blasphemy/Apostasy
Sayyid Muhammad Rizvi (Shia)
“Like the Sunni jurists, Shi'i scholars are in agreement in stating that it is incumbent
(wajib) to execute one who insults or calumniates the Prophet upon him be peace and blessings, when one hears the insults provided there is no danger to his/her self, reputation, or wealth. For the Shi'is, this ruling is extended to cover insults against their twelve Imams and Hazrat Fatima, the daughter of the Prophet upon him be peace and blessings. It is not essential to get the permission of a jurist or religious scholar to carry out the act (Khu'i, Minhaj, vol.2).”
http://www.ltakim.com/articles/Blasphemy.pdf

---------------------
Sistani's view:

CONTEMPORARY
LEGAL RULINGS IN
SHI'I LAW
in accordance with the rulings (fatawa) of
Ayatullah al-'Uzma al-Sayyid 'Ali
al-Husayni al-Seestani
Excerpt from the Preface, by Hamid Mavani (Montreal October 1996 / Jumada-l-Akhirah 1417):
“This work contains the translation of a selection of new legal rulings that are based on the opinion of the eminent jurist Ayatullah al-'Uzma al-Sayyid 'Ali al-Husayni al-Seestani, who resides in Najaf, Iraq, and is the point of reference, or marja', for a good part of the Shi'ah Ithna 'Ashari community of believers, who revert to him for guidance. Three of his works, Al-Fatawa al-Muyassarah (FM), al-Mustahdathat min al-Masa'il al-Shar'iyyah (MMS) and Minhaj al-Salihin, vol. 1 (MS) were used in compiling the list of questions/answers and organizing them under appropriate subjects. The source is clearly marked in regular brackets after the response to each question to facilitate easy reference to the original Arabic text.”
[Note: Below, Q = Question, A = Seestani’s answer ruling].
8. Slandering Allah (s.w.t.), Prophet (S) or Imams (a.s.)
Q194: During verbal disputes, some people unfortunately employ words in a non-serious manner that imply disbelief in Allah (s.w.t.) or articulate that which is inappropriate for the infallible ones (a.s.). Is it obligatory to impose a penalty (hadd) on them for that?
A: As long as they are not serious and do not mean what they are saying, there is no shar'i penalty on them but they are deserving of ta'zir. (FM, p. 419)
Q195: If they are serious and intend to slander Allah (s.w.t.), the Prophet (S), the Imams (a.s.), religion or school of law (madhhab) and persist in this.
A: The ruling upon them is death. (FM, p. 419)
Source: http://www.al-islam.org/laws/contemporary/

------------------------

Lastly, Caner claimed that the Quran does not call for retribution for blasphemy insults. Indeed, the Quran does not contain an explicit direct ruling on the earthly punishment for mere blasphemy. However, his statement is misleading in at least two ways, both on his apparent underlying assumption that Islam in principle accepts freedom to criticize Islam and Muhammad. First, the Quran explicitly in multiple places says that people are going to be tortured in hell-fire for what they say about religious matters, e.g., criticizing Islamic beliefs etc. This indicates the importance, the weight, that is given to mere insult or criticism toward the religion. Second, verses 9:12-14 explicitly mention the disbelievers "reviling (insulting, criticizing)" Islam as one among other reasons to fight the disbelievers or the leaders of disbelief:

9:12. "But if they violate their oaths after their covenant, and attack your religion with disapproval and criticism then fight (you) the leaders of disbelief (chiefs of Quraish - pagans of Makkah) - for surely their oaths are nothing to them - so that they may stop (evil actions).
9:13. Will you not fight a people who have violated their oaths (pagans of Makkah) and intended to expel the Messenger, while they did attack you first? Do you fear them? Allâh has more right that you should fear Him, if you are believers.
9:14. Fight against them so that Allâh will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of a believing people,"

The Saudis interpret this as the basis for killing the apostate who insults the prophet Muhammad.

Of course, the passage is unclear on the question at hand because accusation of blasphemy is mixed in with other accusations. But it would be more accurate to say the Quran is unclear on the question of an earthly punishment for blasphemy, in which case scholars and jurists can turn to the Hadith. Anyways, Caner's sweeping denial about the Quran in this regard is obviously incorrect; at best a half truth.

So, another slave of Islam is going to debate a free man in a free country? Well, now, if this were to take place in Saudi Arabia, under Islamic law, what do you suppose would happen to you?

The truth about Islam is the death of Islam, and you know it.

Islam: where freedom ends and slavery begins.

More misleading and reckless statements from Caner Dagli here:

Excerpt:
http://www.muslimcomment.com/blog/2010/04/28/depicting-the-prophet-and-the-south-park-incident-ii/

"Depicting the Prophet and the South Park incident II
by Caner K. Dagli | April 28th, 2010
In my previous post I asked who had actually been killed by Muslims in the West over their speech. The credible threat of force is a serious matter, and indeed that is part of the reason why both force and the threat of force between nations is banned under the UN Charter. That is, it is a crime of aggression to invade another country, but it is also a threat to say we will invade you unless you do what we say.
It is not enough that some people such as Ibn Warraq, Fleming Rose, Magdi Alam, and others travel with bodyguards. It must also be established that they are living under a credible threat. “I’m afraid.” is not always the same as “I’m in danger.” Sadly, some media reports refer to the fact of people travelling secretly or under guard (this is almost always mentioned when Ayaan Hirsi Ali is interviewed, though in her case the threat seems credible) without asking if the person actually needs that secrecy or protection.
It may be that people think threats from Muslims are indeed more credible, but that has more to do with the hysteria created in the media. Not all Muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are Muslims, we are told (demonstrably false, look at the FBI statistics on terrorism over the last quarter century). Muslim extremists are super ninja telepaths who can accomplish anything they threaten to do."


Dagli is apparently unaware of Molly Norris, and the additional people who were killed in relation to Salman Rushdie, the numerous deaths in relation to the Muhammad cartoon controversy, the threats against the Danish cartoonists, etc.

Here Caner speaks out against an offensive photo:
http://www.muslimcomment.com/blog/2010/05/12/lars-vilks-and-the-violent-reaction-in-sweden/

"Muslims love the Prophet and Ali, truly love them, and revere them. To show some cheap and vulgar stunt with masks on gay actors is not about freedom of speech. It is an insult pure and simple, and an egregious one at that. I cannot think of a worse insult. The violence is not correct, but can be excused and often is in court cases where extreme provocation can be shown."

Yet Caner has no problem with the Quran's numerous hateful and demonizing remarks against the disbelievers, those who merely refuse to believe that Muhammad is a prophet and that the Quran is divine.

I'm questioning whether Caner actually accepts freedom of expression as most Americans understand the concept, i.e., including freedom to criticize religion and religious figures. Maybe he needs to be asked about that.

When I wrote the statement above that was BEFORE I went to Dr Gabriele Marranci's website. After reading his summary of his book "Jihad beyond islam" my comment stand's affirmend. Basically he states that muslims are in a "circle of panic" due to outside forces beyond his or her control and engage in jihad to break the "circle of panic" and establish a sense of identity. I'm pretty sure he just called a lamp post a fish.

More sweeping denials and misleading statements by Caner Dagli:

---Dagli's tweets:

http://twitter.com/#!/Caner_K_Dagli/status/154348365415583744
@Caner_K_Dagli Caner K Dagli
Lies of @jihadwatchRS "dhimmi" means "guilty person". Any person who knows Arabic knows this is laughably false. It means "treaty holder""
3 Jan

@Caner_K_Dagli Caner K Dagli
"@dullahan24 It's a poor translation. Dhimmah means "treaty" or "bond" and has a positive connotation in Quran 9:8
3 Jan

---end of excerpted tweets

Indeed, dhimma and dhimmi do mean what Dagli says, but they also have other meanings and connotations that he is erroneously denying. He's a teacher, so he should be educating us about the words, not trying to cover things up.

We've been over this issue before:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/05/egyptian-convert-endures-life-at.html

I would invite Caner Dagli then to also contact Zafar Iqbal and Mervin K. Lewis and explain to them how they too have managed to make "a laughably false" statement:

An Islamic Perspective on Governance Zafar Iqbal and Mervyn K. Lewis (2009) Edward Elgar Publishing, Cheltenham U.K. pp. 75-76 “...the Holy Qur’an refers to Jews and Christians as ahl al-kitab, the People of the Book, because they belong to ‘revealed religions’ (Stork, 1999, p. 16). Although in one of the verses in the Holy Qur’an they are reserved Allah’s curse for stubbornly rejecting Faith (2:159), generally they are afforded forgiveness (4:153), praise for devotion to learning (5:82) and placed in the ranks of the righteous (3:113-114). Under Islamic Law, People of the Book are accorded the status of dhimmis (non-Muslims protected by a treaty of surrender), a position which, like the Arabic word itself, means ‘protected’ or ‘guilty’. They are protected because they have been recipients of genuine revelations (the Book) and share common religious beliefs with Muslims such as God, Angels and the Last Day. On these grounds, they received the status of ‘protected minorities’ (ahl adh-dhimma). At the same time, People of the Book are guilty of not accepting Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) as a prophet, and having misinterpreted (or distorted) the revelations that they did receive (al-Mawardi, [1405 AH] 1985). There are differences, for example, on the Oneness of God, the Prophets, Revealed Books, lawful food, inheritance, etc., that pose difficulties for marriage between Muslims and non-Muslims and for the bringing up of children.” “As dhimmis, Jews and Christians may live in Muslim states and practice their religions, but under certain conditions and not quite as equals with Muslims.[...]"

I wrote up a summary of my research on this word here, in the same thread where Robert addressed Loonwatch's deceptive theatrics and histrionics concerning this word:

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/05/egyptian-convert-endures-life-at.html#comment-701328

It has been my experience that most Moslems are essentially very immature people in a state of arrested development. Very poor impulse control as well.

I wrote in rebutting Dagli, "First, the Quran explicitly in multiple places says that people are going to be tortured in hell-fire for what they say about religious matters, e.g., criticizing Islamic beliefs etc."
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/01/why-cant-muslims-debate-again.html#comment-848822

I should have added the more important part, namely, that the Quran does say that those who say they deny the revelations will be punished for that in this world, though it does not specify how.* (Again, that's the way the Quran is on numerous issues; it's unclear, but the issue is sometimes resolved by clearer statements in the Hadith).

*That's aside from jihad policy of course, where 9:29 specifies that people should be fought if they refuse to follow Muhammad and Islam, where the "punishment" is either death in battle or subjugation under Islamic rule.

Yeah Robert, you are absolutely right. Muslims are the most brain dead people ever. They just cannot think logically, in fact I feel as if their brains are partitioned. One has religion and the other has the rest of the worldly things. The religious partition is frozen in 7th century AD..It can never see beyond Mo and his idiosyncrasies. Muslims can never debate because they do not know how to be at least civil to the other party. They cannot play fair game. They are born to believe that they are the winners and the rest of us are losers. Please Robert, do not even bother to argue with them. They are a lost case.

Muslim debaters:

Charge the non-Muslim with ignorance.

This doesn't come out of nowhere.

In Islam all non-Muslims are considered 'ignorant'.

That is where the campaigns to help people not to be 'ignorant' of Islam become a laughable.

Because to a Muslim - if you are not a Muslim - than you are 'living in ignorance' and so are 'ignorant' of Islam.

The 'ignorant of Islam' phrase is one of the favourites of John Esposito - who understands the gravity of his statements - more than most others. Such as reporters plugging into the same language.

To state that you are trying to prevent people from being 'ignorant' of Islam - is a direct statement of proselytization.

::

Today most of the Muslims in the west are directly from the Islamic world - there Islam would have been held in a superior position - above question - and then to have its ideas questioned or challenged so openly - by those deemed 'ignorant' [read inferior] - it is a difficult adjustment. As in the Islamic world, the penalty for openness or challenge would be threats or death.

::

Engage in often quite vicious personal attacks against the non-Muslim.

Tariq Ramadan gets over very well in debates through personal attacks. He uses his intelligence to try to create - the Islamic utopian states of Europe.

Its a die hard delusion - for most.

:: If you think you are going to be supreme one day - because one guy, with one of the Kaaba gods raised his sword - and threatened you [ancestors] and you now threaten others - or seek to subjugate others [the 'ignorant'] and that the whole world will become a Muslim parade - a show of Islamic supremacy - how can we bring down from this - where all we have to offer are ideas about individual freedoms and rights - which are perhaps not so enticing to the Muslim raised on the Islam will conquer belief!!

But we persist!!

Hello, Doctor Marranci! A friendly piece of advice. You'd better come well prepared for this debate 'cos Mr Spencer's going to wipe the floor with you, like all the other contenders who have climbed into the ring.

Why?

It's not that you're stupid or unable to put together a tenable position in an argument, but you've been given such poor quality materials to work with - Islam! Islam is riddled with holes; from a plagiarized text, Al Qur'an, to the constant problem of trying to square the circle between Islam declaring itself to be the 'religion of peace' while prosecuting a war (jihad) against anyone who is not a Muslim.

You'll get whupped! Best of luck! You'll need it.

I like your approach and I wish you will share his response when u hear back from him.

Print out and distribute this flyer: Three Stages of Jihad

Mail that flyer to your politicians, as well.

I have no interest in seeing a debate between Robert Spencer, and Danios of Loonwatch.

Danios has already stated that he will use tu quoque when ever he can.

So what you will see is a spectacle of Robert Spencer calling Danios on this over, and over again followed by Danios then claiming in the post mortem that Spencer failed to address his points.

There is no reason to go there.

Let them twist in the wind.

Caner must well remember "The Cave" (Surah 18), in which Al Khidr, accompanied by a dumbfounded and impotent Moses, kills a young man he happens upon in their journey.

It is later explained to Moses by Al Khidr that the young man would have engaged in disbelief and rebellion, causing his parents pain, and that Al Khidr has thus allowed "space" for a new and better son to replace this future reprobate.

First, Minority Report anyone?

Second, since Mohammad is the only receiver of this prophecy, and felt it important enough to impart this revelation to his 150 fans, then followed it with a parable ending with a "you never know what the divine knowledge is, don't question what doesn't seem right at the time" kind of message, do you not think that he thought the death of the young boy was a justified one?

Did he not just reveal the irrefutable fact to his followers that Allah knew that killing a son for a future act of apostasy or shirk or disobedience was worthy of death?

And also importantly, why would Moses think that deed was wrong in the first place? Do we think Mohammad's followers thought it was wrong, until Mohammad re-educated them that Allah's will to kill those from whom he feared disobedience was a correct belief?

So instead of his sword, we have Mohammad telling his followers that Allah wants us to kill those from whom we fear disobedience.

Talk about women's rights...at least they only get beaten lightly if their husbands fear they might possibly become disobedient in the future.

Speaking of Loonwatch, there is a self-declared fan of that site, using the moniker "skouti," who is commenting on Liberated's blog, and who has over the past couple of weeks repeatedly endorsed Loonwatch and Spencerwatch, while also endorsing violence against apostates and rape of Europeans, and who now endorses the Holocaust:

skouti said... "Kai56 | January 6, 2012 8:54 PM | Reply come on you have got to be kidding me jew and zionist not same thing you dumb bitch" GET IT U DUMB BITCH!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA too funny.......listen please ship this DUMB ASS FAKE MURTAD quickly. She is too STOOPID for Islam "“Shakila, as soon as I found out that they were Jewish, I had this sudden urge to push them all out of the train”. " And into the gas oven!!!!! heehehehehehehe :) January 10, 2012 2:13 PM

Islam can't debate Robert because deep insite most Muslims know that the Koran, hadith, and Sira don't make sense. If it were a puzzel the pieces would not fit, nor would they be the correct color.

The Koran counterdicts itself on nearly ever statement or issue. So it can't possibly be a message from a higher power unless the higher power were confused. Knowing that a debate would let the truth be known. And Islam can't have that after all that has been said and written.


It is also very troubling and difficult for Islam to think that after all of these centuries it was all for naught. So it is kept a difficult ideology to decode.

Livingengine,

I agree. They (Loonwatch et al.) know they'll get more publicity for their site by taking on Robert, but what's in it for Robert?

What I'd like to see, rather than debates, are interviews. E.g., let Robert interview Dagli, and let Dagli interview Robert. I think this would be more educational, and we have the advantage of not having anything to hide.

I had similar experience with muslims but also with an art thief especially who stole credit for the work.

the "troll face" which circulated the web is a copycat of "Muhammad" cartoon I made years ago.

I confronted the person who claim it is his genuine creation. to my defense, I have mentioned the site I can be found for my credibility. (http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/index.php?sid=7645f65b68e61ef074619014b4b5dfec) considering the nature of the drawing, I can't really do much, except say my side.

but the guy replied to me with: "please advertise your stupid anti-muslim site elsewhere" so what does it tells you? I made anti islamic drawing and this guy apparently islamphile ... do your math.

I made other drawings at this site where I have joined to confront this fellow. you can see and compare. http://ygalg.deviantart.com/gallery/ the style of the artist is significant indication

Interesting.... "Dagli" translates as "My fish" in Hebrew!

Forget about the bottom feeders, they are not worth the effort!!

Peace!

(And a happy New Year to Robert and his supporters!)

Tu quoque squared

There is an unintentionally very funny piece posted over at Loonwatch where Danios is accusing Robert Spencer of . . . tu quoque!

Tu quoque is the key to understanding Loonwatch, and Danios. To give just one of many examples, Danios has called Robert Spencer the new Julius Streicher. It’s not that the D-man actually believes this, but more that he believes Spencer deserves this. Because in Danios’ mind, Robert Spencer teaches people to hate all Muslims, therefore it is legitimate to demonize Robert Spencer because, after all, "he does it, too".

One begins to get the feeling that tu quoque is a prominent feature of his personality, that he is someone who can not accept personal responsibility, is never able to get anything going for himself, and has no practical experience in the world. He has no interpersonal skills, or deep relationships with other people. He has never grabbed the brass ring, and has to settle for the "Brass Crescent" instead.

Danios seems to have forgotten that he is a punk punching above his weight. It is a role that he has adopted with zeal, but now that he is living with the consequences of being a punk, (and maybe even getting punked) he doesn’t like it. And so, his petulance is on display at his web site, as well as in his emails exchanges with RS.

I think it would be fitting to have large a number of people go to Loonwatch, and challenge him to a debate, the topic of which will be “Is Loonwatch a propagandistic, hate site that lies, and teaches its readers to hate individuals including Robert Spencer? Yes or no.” Also, add that if he doesn’t accept, you will declare yourself the winner, and denounce him as a chicken who runs away.

I think this is something a tu quoque miester would appreciate.

Dear all,

Robert and I are still looking for a topic for our forthcoming debate. I have proposed "why Muslims conduct jihad", but I think we may have a better topic.

In any case, I had the idea that you may suggest some topics that may be of interest for the debate. I am sure you have lots of ideas to propose and I am think that both Mr Robert Spencer and I may consider some of our kind suggestions.

thanks for your help
Dr Gabriele Marranci
http:www.marranci.net

Dear all,

Mr Robert Spencer and I are still looking for a topic for our forthcoming debate. I have proposed "why do Muslims conduct jihad", but I think we may have a better topic.

In any case, I had the idea that you may suggest some topics for the debate. I am sure you have lots of ideas to propose and I think that both Mr Robert Spencer and I can consider some of our kind suggestions.

thanks for your help
Dr Gabriele Marranci
http:www.marranci.net

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What they’re saying about Robert Spencer
“My comrade-in-arms, my pal, my buddy.”
Oriana Fallaci

“Robert Spencer incarnates intellectual courage when, all over the world, governments, intellectuals, churches, universities and media crawl under a hegemonic Universal Caliphate’s New Order. His achievement in the battle for the survival of free speech and dignity of man will remain as a fundamental monument to the love of, and the self-sacrifice for, liberty.”
Bat Ye’or

“Robert Spencer is indefatigable. He is keeping up the good fight long after many have already given up. I do not know what we would do without him. I appreciate all the intelligence and courage it takes to keep going despite the appeasement of the West.”
Ibn Warraq

“America's most informed, fearless, and compelling voice on modern jihadism.”
Andrew C. McCarthy, Senior Fellow at National Review Institute

“Robert Spencer is the leading voice of scholarship and reason in a world gone mad. If the West is to be saved, we will owe Robert Spencer an incalculable debt.”
Pamela Geller, Atlas Shrugs

"The consummate Islam critic and expert." — Bruce Bawer

“Over the years, we have become friends, and I have received his assistance on several pieces of legislation I proposed.”
Former Congressman Tom Tancredo

“Few people are capable of applying scholarship, analytical reasoning, and objectivity to their topic -- while simultaneously being readable and witty -- as can Robert Spencer.”
Raymond Ibrahim

“A national treasure...The acclaimed scholar of Islam.”
Frank Gaffney, Center for Security Policy

“I am indeed honored to call him my friend.”
Brad Thor, novelist

“A top American analyst of Islam....A serious scholar...I learn from him.”
Daniel Pipes

“A brilliant scholar and writer.”
Douglas Murray

"One of my best teachers."
Ashraf Ramelah, Voice of the Copts

“Thank God there’s at least one man with balls left in the West.”
Kathy Shaidle, Five Feet of Fury

“I read people like [Mark Steyn] and Bob Spencer and the rest of them, and I say, ‘Boortz, you’re pretending you’re an author. These people really are. They really write some entertaining, some standup stuff.’”
Neal Boortz

“Robert Spencer is the Stephen King of Jihad.”
Chris Gaubatz, Muslim Mafia

“Armed with facts and fearlessness, Spencer stands up for Western civilization.”
Michelle Malkin

“Widely read in conservative foreign policy circles.”
New York Times

“Widely read in many quarters in Washington.”
Washington Post

“A canny operative who likely has the inside track on the State Department’s Middle East affairs desk should the tea party win the White House.”
New York Magazine

“A hero of the American right.”
Karen Armstrong

"The leading anti-Islamic intellectual in the United States....The go-to Islam expert for the right wing."
Salon Magazine

“Robert Spencer is an Edward Said turned upside down.”
Stephen Suleyman Schwartz

“One of the nation's most notorious Islamophobes.”
Hamas-linked CAIR

"Geller and Spencer are probably the most important propagandizing Islamophobes in the world. These people's voices speak very loudly — not just here in the United States but overseas."
Heidi Beirach, Southern Poverty Law Center

“Satanic ignoramus.”
Khaleel Mohammed

“The Likud anti-Christ.”
Dar al-Hayat newspaper (Saudi Arabia)

“Zionist Crusader, missionary of hate, counter-Islam consultant.”
Al-Qaeda’s Adam Gadahn, “Azzam the American”



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