Afghanistan: Enraged crowd of 2,000 rallies, shouting “Die, die, foreigners!” over alleged Qur’an desecration at U.S. air base, U.S. General abjectly apologizes, orders investigation

General Allen clearly has now idea how weak and pusillanimous his repeated apologies in this video will make him appear to many, if not most, of “the noble people of Afghanistan.” He should know enough about Islamic culture to know that it respects strength and sees apologizing and attempts at conciliation as weakness, only to be despised.

Note also the General’s eager endorsement of Sharia provisions regarding treatment of the Qur’an, and unquestioning acceptance of the fundamental proposition that the burning of these Qur’ans was something heinous and to be apologized for in the first place. He makes no attempt whatsoever, even in the gentlest way, to suggest that rioting and calling for killing people because of the burning of these books is irrational, unjustifiable behavior.

And even though his assumption of a duty to enforce Sharia in this case is a matter of tactics, not belief, it is unwise: it will not win the hearts and minds of Afghans, and it sets yet another bad precedent for the responsibility of Infidel authorities vis-a-vis Sharia.

I am not saying that he should have been confrontational or defiant. As long as the pointless and self-defeating U.S. adventure in Afghanistan continues, he should do what he needs to do to protect American lives. But this abject statement, while it may (or may not) defuse tensions in the short run, in the long run it will only make matters worse.

What if 2,000 Americans rioted and protested against General Allen’s imbecility? Would we get an apology, too? An apology for the waste of the “nation-building” exercise in Afghanistan, and for the U.S. Government’s bowing to Sharia? Are violent and irrational voices the only ones that U.S. authorities heed?

“Angry Afghans rally over Quran disposal at US base,” by Deb Riechmann for the Associated Press, February 21 (thanks to all who sent this in):

KABUL, Afghanistan””More than 2,000 angry Afghans rallied Tuesday against the inadvertent burning of Qurans and other Islamic religious materials during trash disposal at an American air base. They demanded to meet the country’s president over the issue and threatened to demonstrate again if their demand was not met.

U.S. Gen. John Allen, the top commander in Afghanistan, apologized and ordered an investigation into the incident, which he was “not intentional in any way.”

The incident stoked anti-foreign sentiment that already is on the rise after nearly a decade of war in Afghanistan and fueled the arguments of Afghans who believe foreign troops are not respectful of their culture or Islamic religion.

Early Tuesday, as word of the incident spread, about 100 demonstrators gathered outside the sprawling Bagram Air Field, north of Kabul in Parwan province. As the crowd grew, so did the outrage.

“Die, die, foreigners!” the demonstrators shouted. Some fired hunting guns into the air. Others threw rocks at the gate of the base.

Ahmad Zaki Zahed, chief of the provincial council, said U.S. military officials took him to a burn pit on the base where 60 to 70 books, including Qurans, were recovered. The books were used by detainees once incarcerated at the base, he said.

“Some were all burned. Some were half-burned,” Zahed said, adding that he did not know exactly how many Qurans, the Muslim holy book, had been burned.

Zahed said five Afghans working at the pit told him that the religious books were in the garbage that two soldiers with the U.S.-led coalition transported to the pit in a truck late Monday night. When they realized the books were in the trash, the laborers worked to recover them, he said.

“The laborers there showed me how their fingers were burned when they took the books out of the fire,” he said.

Afghan Army Gen. Abdul Jalil Rahimi, the commander of a military coordination office in the province, said he and other officials met with protesters, tribal elders and clerics to try to calm their emotional response. “The protesters were very angry and didn’t want to end their protest,” he said.

One protester, Mohammad Hakim, said if U.S. forces can’t bring peace to Afghanistan, they should go home.

Great idea.

“They should leave Afghanistan rather than disrespecting our religion, our faith,” Hakim said. “They have to leave and if next time they disrespect our religion, we will defend our holy Quran, religion and faith until the last drop of blood has left in our body.”…

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Comments

  1. says

    Okay, so when are we American taxpayers going to get an apology from our government for having thrown so much blood and treasure down the Afghan rat-hole?

  2. says

    Over a decade into the Afghanistan War and the US Military leaders are apparently still clueless about the Islamic culture.

    They will turn us in a heartbeat when the money stops coming in.

  3. says

    I had a look at his biography. I am not surprised to see that he is just another idiot Baby Boomer. Worst Generation Ever. He may be a Marine, but he seems to be very thin in combat experience.

  4. says

    This guy has been in the military what, thirty-five, forty years? He’s protecting his pension, plain and simple. If he didn’t come out and say this then the Dictator-in-Chief would have him removed from his job and take away his hard earned pension with the stroke of his pen.

    That is the state of the Amerika we live in, this Year of Our Lord 2012.

  5. says

    He may as well have been bowing in dhimmi servitude as he said this, it would have gotten the messaage across better. You just know some innocent people are going to get killed over this, just like after Pastor Jones burnt his Quran. Where’s the apology from when the US military burnt the bibles in Afghanistan? I think we’ll be waiting a long while for that.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QL0XgbSUubI

  6. says

    I think we are misunderstanding the Afghanis.

    You remember the Muslims saying “We love death”?

    Well, having angry crowds shouting “Death to Americans” is a measure of our success. They are wishing us well. As far as shooting guns, that is how the Muslims express themselves. We can’t expect a heartfelt thanks without shooting, can we? It’s would be a sign of insincerity.

  7. says

    This is sheer opportunism on the part of the “outraged” “demonstrators”. They know full well that Muslims dispose of Qurans all the time, including by incineration. They are simply using this routine event involving non-Muslims as an excuse for propaganda jihad and possibly militant jihad.

  8. says

    Such a fascist debased evil book deserves to be in the trash. How empty Islam must be that they worship a book rather than love their neighbors and even their enemies as Jesus taught. Allah of Islam is a pathetic unholy god who is unable to change hearts and minds and unable to punish by himself unlike the LORD of the bible. Islam is a religion which maintains discipline only by terror and murder.
    The US government by such apologies is aiding the worship of demons!

  9. says

    While I would have liked to have seen a different statement, I don’t fault the general too much for this. He has to play the cards that have been dealt to him. The blame for this apparently absurd approach ultimately rests on Obama’s shoulders.

  10. says

    Dhimmitude in action. Pure dhimmitude.

    “Afghan Army Gen. Abdul Jalil Rahimi, the commander of a military coordination office in the province, said he and other officials met with protesters, tribal elders and clerics to try to calm their emotional response.”

    Instead of calming their emotional response they should have contributed to their intellectual maturity saying: “Dear Elders, Grow up! We are in the 21st Century!

    “One protester, Mohammad Hakim, said if U.S. forces can’t bring peace to Afghanistan, they should go home.”

    I’m wondering..What did he mean by peace?…
    I think the U.S. forces can’t bring peace to Afghanistan!
    It is like a star trying to share its light with a Black Hole!

    I hope a day will come when all Westerners will be proud of the West saying:
    We will defend our Civilization, values, until the last drop of blood has left in our body!

  11. says

    “What if 2,000 Americans rioted and protested against General Allen’s imbecility? Would we get an apology, too? ”

    Very good point!

    More:

    On the matter of winning “hearts and minds”: after WW2, we did not win the hearts and minds of the Germans by handling their holy book — “Mein Jihad” (a.k.a. “Mein Kampf”) –with kid gloves, and forbidding our occupation troops from making disparaging remarks about their “fuhrer” or mocking “Aryan” supremacy. No, we threw “Mein Jihad” into the mud and laughed at all the Nazi teachings. But then we were there to make them civilized people again; to change their hearts and minds, not win them. And it worked.
    The same with Japan: the emperor was forced to announce that he was not divine, bushido was forbidden, etc.
    In both cases we showed them the error of their ways and the evil they had been following. In Iraq and Afghanistan, we’re doing just the opposite: we’re telling them that their evil holy books and the culture created from them is wonderful and beautiful, and we thoroughly respect it — all it needs is a few tiny changes.
    We’re telling them that we respect their culture more than we do our own. Instead of proving to them that our ways are better we tell them their ways are already the best.
    No wonder we’re failing.

  12. says

    Books burned in Afghanistan had extremist and violent content and terrorists were using them to fuel jihad http://j.mp/AeVvnw. Yep, that sounds like a Quran to me, what a lovely and peaceful realigion. Meanwhile in Nigeria more than 30 non-muslims were massacred by muslims.

  13. says

    No one ‘disrespects the faith’

    Very Mafia sounding…

    In Pakistan a Christian woman and her husband were imprisoned for 25 years for touching the Koran as non-Muslims – under that country’s blasphemy laws. The act of touching or handling the Koran, as [unclean] non-Muslims, was deemed a desecration of the holy book.

    There was an issue of the Korans in Afghanistan being written in the local languages – rather than Arabic – being blasphemous.

    Afghanistan is a stated proud ‘Jew Free’ country – and anyone found to have converted from Islam is sentenced to death.

    What are we defending?

  14. says

    As usual the muslims go ballistic based on rumor, not facts.

    Then to make matters worse, an idiot General apologizes before he has the facts.

    What nuts!

  15. says

    What is it with this Af-Gone-Istan pronunciation?

    I have gotten so sick of hearing Christiane Amanpour that I reflexively click the channel. Same here. Click.

  16. says

    Any non-Muslim with an understanding of Islam & Muslims might naturally have to suppress vomiting while watching a NATO general apologize so abjectly for an accidental Koran burning. This is because of the real reason that Muslims get into an hysterical rage about it and it’s not because they are so devout.

    Their absurd supremacist faith is the sole reason they feel so much better than us infidels who are the worst of creature and hell bound per the Koran. Burning a Koran is not something their inferiors do and when it happens the psychological impact is enormous because it becomes a blazing symbol of our actual non-inferiority that robs these poor and miserable third world morons of their phony boloney sense of superiority, which is all they have. Their rage is essentially just a great insult to us.

  17. says

    “They should leave Afghanistan rather than disrespecting our religion, our faith,” Hakim said.”

    Correct!

    The idea that you can only show disrespect to a religion by your actions or speech is a product of Western culture. In Islam the very fact the you are not a “true believer” is in itself an expression of disrespect. In Islam the Muslims are thought to hate and submit infidels and not take them as friends, so the hate has not necessarily to do with what you do, but who you are.

    The help and assistance we offer to Muslims by means of money to improve social conditions and provide security may be tolerated, but is not perceived as a deed of charity or compassion but something the superior Muslims are entitled to, a kind of Jizzya that the infidels should pay with willing submission and feel themselves subdued. So it is Allah who made the infidels “pay”, and only He is to be thanked and not the infidels.

    We are “paying” but not with willing submission and we feel that we are doing a good deed, instead of feeling subdued.
    So even if we behave with absolute respect towards Islam and Muslims and submit to the laws of the land – Sharia – it is not sufficient to prevent jihad because we do not feel subdued but equal or superior to the Muslims.

    So even if we did not burn Qur’ans or something else the infidels are not allowed to do according to Sharia, the Muslims would still hate us and wage violent jihad against us. For a Muslim to show gratitude towards infidels is utterly un-Islamic and this may cause prosecution for heresy or blasphemy if Sharia is strictly interpreted. Muslim leaders may say thank you to infidels, but that is clearly taqyyia legitimized when it promotes the interests of Islam and Muslims.

    If the U.S. leadership knew the basic concepts of Islam troops would have been withdrawn from Afghanistan when the Taliban government was toppled and Al Qaeda driven out – after 6 months – and Iraq would never have been attacked. We are about to learn the lesson: Never interfere in Islamic civil wars unless they pose a direct and substantial threat to our vital interests. We cannot save Muslims from the negative consequences of Islam, only Muslims can do that. And we are still waiting for this miracle to happen.

  18. says

    Afghanistan: Enraged crowd of 2,000 rallies, shouting “Die, die, foreigners!” over alleged Qur’an desecration at U.S. air base…
    ………………………….

    Allegations of “Qur’an desecration” is the Muslim equivalent of that favorite of schoolyard bullies everywhere, “I heard you said something bad about my momma!””whether aimed at the US military or at hapless dhimmis trapped in Dar-al-Islam.

    It’s the same old bs”yet they can get up a mob screaming for death at the drop of a hat on such stupid rumors.

    More:

    …U.S. General abjectly apologizes, orders investigation
    ………………………….

    I don’t entirely blame the general, but this kind of abject pandering *does not help*. When we hear this kind of crap, we should just give a short, dismissive denial”then move on.

    More:

    General Allen clearly has now idea how weak and pusillanimous his repeated apologies in this video will make him appear to many, if not most, of “the noble people of Afghanistan.”
    ………………………….

    Yes”they won’t see this as “respect””just a display of weakness. And we know how Muslims respond to weakness”and no, I don’t mean they’ll try to take advantage of us at the next trade agreement…

    More:

    He should know enough about Islamic culture to know that it respects strength and sees apologizing and attempts at conciliation as weakness, only to be despised.
    ………………………….

    True.

    More:

    Note also the General’s eager endorsement of Sharia provisions regarding treatment of the Qur’an…
    ………………………….

    Well”that’s a big part of the problem. If someone really had “desecrated” a Qur’an, should homicidal riots be accepted as a reasonable response?

    More:

    KABUL, Afghanistan”More than 2,000 angry Afghans rallied Tuesday against the inadvertent burning of Qurans and other Islamic religious materials during trash disposal at an American air base. They demanded to meet the country’s president over the issue and threatened to demonstrate again if their demand was not met.
    ………………………….

    Muslims burn Qur’ans and other Islamic religious materials *all the time*. Yet God help *anyone* who is singled out for having done so, Infidel or Muslim.

    Who was the person who was arrested in Pakistan for tossing out an unsolicited business card of a fellow named “Muhammad”?

    Oh, yes”here’s the story:

    “Pakistan: Muslim doctor arrested for blasphemy for throwing away business card of man named Muhammad”

    http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/12/pakistan-muslim-doctor-arrested-for-blasphemy-for-throwing-away-business-card-of-man-named-muhammad.html

    How can one even function in such an insane environment? Well”one can’t, really. And that’s the problem. Qur’anic verses, and sayings of the “Prophet”, and Hadiths are printed on all sorts of things”including calendar pages and notebooks. Muslims hardly keep all these things in perpetuity.

    The other day, the Jehovah’s Witnesses left some pamphlets on my porch. I gave them a quick read”then put them into the recycling. They included Biblical verses.

    While this in no way indicated my disdain for the Bible–although such is perfectly legal, in any case”I could easily have found myself accused of “Blasphemy” were the civilized West as insane as the Muslim world.

    And Muslims want to impose these strictures of Shari’ah on all of us. We are mad if we let them.

  19. says

    @gravenimage

    This story and the one you posted -and many others- prove that muslims praise and worship idols, if you break a figurine of Jesus or a crucfix, christians will not flip out and start mass murdering people, rioting, pillaging… etc the same for jews and other religions. Muslims are the only one that praise and worship material stuff, that’s telling.

  20. says

    Try doing business with Christiane Amanpour. .she’ll steal the pants off your ass and sell them back t’ya. . I willing to bet she beat that intern to hold slick Will’s golden microphone.

  21. says

    “They should leave Afghanistan rather than disrespecting our religion, our faith,” Hakim said.

    WRONG!

    We should leave Afghanistan out of respect for ourselves. It’s time we left Afghanistan and never (I do mean NEVER) went back, no matter how dire the circumstances Afghans find themselves in the future. Invasion, earthquake, famine, whatever – you’re on your own. Ask Allah for help.
    A future 9/11 won’t bring us back, because (if we had any sense) no future 9/11 would originate from Afghanistan. Our immigration policies would be changed to permanently bar from our soil anyone who so much as set foot in Afghanistan.
    In a country where no good deed goes unpunished, no good deed should ever again take place.

  22. says

    I understand that military commanders in Afghanistan have to say certain things to prevent Muslims from going into hysterics, but this particular commander went way beyond what was necessary and, quite frankly, groveled. Besides, Muslims will go into hysterics for most any reason anyway and so why not at least retain one’s own dignity when addressing these overgrown children? On a related note, I think it time America and its allies leave Afghanistan except for the occasional Special Forces raid to take out the most barbarous of Mohammedans that inhabit this extra sorry-ass excuse of a country.

  23. says

    Oh no…
    A civilized idiot apologizes to savages for the”desecration” of history’s most revolting manual of applied hatred and stupidity.

    What a revolting scene. Almost as bad as seeing the American president bowing low before the saudi swine.

    Oh America, America…
    Trying to win minds and hearts of madmen made you loose your own mind AND heart. And so many of your finest men.

  24. says

    The incident stoked anti-foreign sentiment that already is on the rise after nearly a decade of war in Afghanistan and fueled the arguments of Afghans who believe foreign troops are not respectful of their culture or Islamic religion. ….
    “Die, die, foreigners!” the demonstrators shouted.

    You think *respect* is afforded to those who wish us “death!” while screaming “Allah akhbar!” ???

    Not in my universe. Maybe these crazed Afghanis should seek ‘sensitivity’ training…

    A plague on their primitive retro-atavistic world. Get out.

  25. says

    we will defend our holy Quran, religion and faith until the last drop of blood has left in our body.”…

    good…..we’re ready when you are. And good riddance to you and your cursed, blasphemous ‘religious’ detritus.

  26. says

    The book Hilter wrote was never than holy book an Hilter never fround than mainstream religion. Islam is over 1400 year old with over 1.5 billion follower worldwide, the Quan is than holly book it you like it or not like it.

  27. says

    “noble people of Afghanistan”

    …noble, eh? ..now that’s rich.

    no·ble  (defined) 

    1. distinguished by rank or title.

    2. pertaining to persons so distinguished.

    3. of, belonging to, or constituting a hereditary class that has special social or political status in a country or state; of or pertaining to the aristocracy.

    4. of an exalted moral or mental character or excellence; lofty: a noble thought.

    5. admirable in dignity of conception, manner of expression, execution, or composition: a noble poem.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~

    By definition, the Afghan’s are NOT a noble people. I know, I know …you didn’t need a dictionary to help you figure out that one. Yeah talk about a poor choice of a word by the Nato General. His entire apology reeks of kissing their “noble” behinds. It was painful to watch.

  28. says

    @DefenderofIslam

    I’m an atheist, so your ridiculous, laughable and pathetic “holy” charade does not compute. The only “holy” -and by holy i mean unalterable and inviolable- thing in life are universal rights, trampled and curtailed by intolerant, bigoted and violent ideologies like Islam.

  29. says

    The General obviously needs sensitivity training.
    Here’s lesson 1.

    “How to talk to a Muslim”:

    Your “religion” stinks.
    Your Koran stinks.
    Your so-called “prophet” stinks.
    Now GTF out of my face!

  30. says

    I saw this story in Australia’s ABC this morning.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-02-21/afghans-protest-after-korans-accidentally-burned/3843176

    Excerpt:

    “We Afghans don’t want these Christians and infidels, they are the enemy of our soil, our honour and our Koran,” said Haji Shirin, one of the protesters.

    “I urge all Muslims to sacrifice themselves in order to pull out these troops from this soil.”
    “We want them out of our country now,” said Zmari, 30, a protester who has a shop near the base.’

    Fine.

    Here’s the deal. We Aussies and Americans and Canadians and everyone else will, with great pleasure, LEAVE your stinking sharia-addled jihad-wracked HELLHOLE forever. When we leave we will take with us EVERYTHING good that we brought with us. We will not leave so much as a shoe or a single bullet behind. You can go back to killing each other with rocks and sticks and antiquated rifles.

    And every cent of ‘aid’ that you ungrateful infidel-hating bastards receive from us, will cease.

    But turnabout is fair play: there are a hell of a lot of AFGHAN MUSLIMS – most of them males of military age – currently infesting OUR Christian and secular countries – Greece, for example, has a great many of them. they are also in the USA, UK, Australia…and more of them are pouring in over our borders every day both legally and illegally. And we don’t like that at all.

    You don’t want us on your soil? Well, turnabout is fair play, we don’t want YOUR SOLDIERS on OUR soil, either, and when we leave YOUR soil – as we will do with the greatest of pleasure – we will start to send BACK to you, all YOUR murder-minded sharia-crazed Islam-addled males who are currently invading and occupying OUR countries and whom we rationally view as a clear and present danger. Capisce?

    Let’s do a swap.

    All ‘infidels’ out of Afghanistan….and ALL AFGHAN MUSLIMS **out** of the lands of the Infidels.

  31. says

    So what does the saud-terrorist-entity do with “shaytanic text” (AKA: Judeo-Christian testaments) when they confiscate same? I don’t suppose the make origami out of same.

    Who remembers when Bush Senior visited his saud owners during Thanksgiving, and had to make a helicopter trip to a US Persian Gulf ship to celebrate same?

  32. says

    pretenderforizlum – LOL LOL!!! “holly book” – have you ordered your copy of Rosetta Stone how to learn English yet? I would almost, ALMOST, be willing to chip in for the cost, your English is so atrocious!

    Now, about the “holly” thing”:

    HOLY: worthy of devotion – perfect in goodness and righteousness

    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/holy

    oh my gosh, where do I begin – there is NOTHING in that rotten evil miserable excuse for a religious text called the koran that is anything approaching good, righteous or worthy of devotion. It advocates, no, MANDATES, hatred of all humankind not izlumic, mandates ENSLAVING AND/OR ELIMINATION of anyone not of the izlumic faith. This “holly” book is one of the greatest scourges of mankind to ever exist. It needs to be stamped out of existence as it is the inspiration for so much death and horror in the world since its inception.

    Yuck, I feel dirty for even replying to that vermin pretenderforizlum, excuse me while I go take a hot shower….

  33. says

    http://edition.cnn.com/2012/02/21/world/asia/afghanistan-islamic-books/?hpt=hp_t2

    “Kabul, Afghanistan (CNN) — Religious materials — including Qurans that were burned at Bagram Airfield in Afghanistan, sparking Afghan protests — were removed from the library of a detainee center “because of EXTREMIST INSCRIPTIONS” on them, a military official said Tuesday.
    There was “an appearance that these documents were BEING USED TO FACILITATE EXTREMIST COMMUNICATIONS,” a military official said…”

    As a wise woman said after reading this article: “Well, it’s just Islamophobic of these Muslim fanatics to be defacing the Koran with “extremist inscriptions.” These radicals should be prosecuted for insulting Islam!”

  34. says

    When military leaders think they need to basically hog-tie and hobble and dhimmify our troops to prevent those (civilians) we are supposedly helping from killing our troops in a murderous rage for thwarting the enemy, that should tell us something.

  35. says

    Don’t get excited over it, it’s just another Islamic-Afghan temper tantrum, where more people die in riots. Some others will join the Taliban in spite, while cursing America and NATO for ‘occupying’ Islamic soil, more children sent to suicide-studies at the mind numbing madrassas, while Karzai demonizes the West and takes our money. Business as usual in Darl-al-Islam Afghani’stan, or any ‘Stan-pigsty of Muslim lands of endless grief.

    “What’s gone and what’s past help
    
 Should be past grief.”

    – William Shakespeare

    No apologies can change anything, they are past help.

  36. says

    Thanks gravenimage,

    I don’t know much about Shakespeare and Islam, even after having read all his plays (and seen a few). I also don’t know much about the specifics of the West’s relation to Islam in the couple of centuries after 1492 (when the West finally regained Spain back from Muslim occupation). Of course, Shakespeare flourished in that early 16th century after that time, and that was the beginning of the West expanding outside of Europe eventually to encompass the whole world and to seriously horn in on the “Third World” and become economic and geopolitical masters of the world.

    As you may or may not know, Queen Elizabeth was monarch during Shakespeare’s time, and he wrote a play in her honor (about her father, King Henry VIII). Casually Googling, I ran across this bit of info that was nice to know:

    Queen Elizabeth herself founded the Barbary Company, formally institutionalizing this trade [the slave trade]. In addition, she received a delegation of Moroccon diplomats [i.e., Muslim officials probably involved in their part of the slave trade — rounding up, brutally housing, and selling the black African slaves to Westerners]. However, the English still felt a strong suspicion against Islam [gee, I wonder why; it couldn’t be because Muslims had been attacking Europe from every flank, east, west and south, by that time for 900 years could it…?]. Elizabeth issued a degree [sic: decree] expelling Moors from Africa and Spanish “Moriscos” [direct descendants of the Spanish Muslims, some still suspected of being Muslims, some being genuine converts to (or back to) Christianity, and many if not most still deformed by their legacy of dhimmitude] from the boundary of England in 1599 and 1601.

    http://www.litcharts.com/files/pdf/printer/othello-LitChart.pdf

    P.S.: And of course Othello was a “Moor” himself (Laurence Olivier famously performed the role in “blackface”); though the play itself doesn’t deal with Islam at all, from my memory of it.

  37. says

    You are absolutely correct whatever these military people say can not contradict whatever the policies handed down by the chief commander. This happens to be Obama. So when Obama says that the military has to make islam look good and must always apologize for any slight to muslims. They are doing their duty and they don’t want to jeopardize their military benefits.

  38. says

    desidude and Isabellathecrusader:
    You always have the option of saying “No”.
    “I was just obeying orders” didn’t work at Nuremberg.

  39. says

    Evil men and their writings have been around since the beginning, so time doesn’t magically make the quran “holy” due to its age …

    This is true whether you like it or not.

    And religion is islam’s facade. A much deeper look reveals that it’s actually an evil islamic supremacist governmental system intent on world domination, much like Hitler had in mind.

  40. says

    The Koran is an unholy book posing as a holy one. It is turgid, repetitive, dreary and full of hate. Oh yeah, I don’t like it. And the fact that there are well over one billion Muslims in the world tends to prove rather than disprove Macbeth’s contention that life is an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

  41. says

    “DefenderofIslam” wrote:

    The book Hilter wrote was never than holy book an Hilter never fround than mainstream religion. Islam is over 1400 year old with over 1.5 billion follower worldwide, the Quan is than holly book it you like it or not like it.
    ……………………………..

    So”you’re *admitting* that the only substantive difference between Mein Kampf and the Qur’an is that the latter has been around considerably longer and is more widely read?

    Nice of you to acknowledge this…

  42. says

    “All ‘infidels’ out of Afghanistan….and ALL AFGHAN MUSLIMS **out** of the lands of the Infidels.”

    Reciprocity…The “forgotten” common sense.

  43. says

    And it’s “Sudahn” too, to those who consider themselves to be cultured. There is no short “a” apparently, in the lands of the exotic and exalted people with whom our tedious elite like to ingratiate themselves.

  44. says

    Sorry Iron Duke…You have mis-quoted.
    I am only troubled by misquotes only when they are of significance. In this case i would say the significance is all.
    The quote is:… “It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury signifying nothing.”
    Your quote reads: “life is an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.”
    Consider this: What regard must we pay to an idiot?
    Best wishes and respect,
    Gerard.

  45. says

    Nevertheless I accept your essential point, as I suppose, that (numeric) Islamic fury is no indication of truth.
    Best regards.
    Gerard.

  46. says

    Just to clarify…
    “A tale told by an idiot..” could be understood as “life is meaningless” or “The idiot’s tale” is meaningless.
    While Macbeth’s cynicism favours the former, Shakespeare’s Christianity (many would now say Catholic Christianity) would favour the latter.
    The reader has his own view.
    Best wishes to all Jihadwatchers.

  47. says

    You’re absolutely right, gerard. It’s not that life is an idiot but rather that it is a tale told by an idiot. Serves me right for paraphrasing from memory.

    I would opine here though that Shakespeare was no Christian as near as I can reckon. Not at all. He’s the great Western counter to the Bible, which is why both Shakespeare and the Bible should still remain the two most read of anything in the Western literary corpus. They are sterling and brilliant opposites of any assessment of existence and why there is anything rather than nothing. In any case, one who can put in Hamlet’s mouth the phrase, “…there is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so,” is highly unlikely to be a Christian who is “merely” placing words for a character to speak which he personally very much disagrees with. If you have ANY evidence of Shakespeare being a believer, I would be most interested in what that evidence is. I think Shakespeare was a skeptic to the core. My best to you and yours.

  48. says

    EZ Rider wrote;

    My god that was pathetic!

    What was that foreign gibberish at the end?

    Thomas H wrote, replying to EZ Rider:

    What was that foreign gibberish at the end?

    Something about “banana-kaka-kur”.

    Anybody knows what does “kur” mean?
    ………………………………

    EZ and Thomas, it was “Manana Tashakur”.

    “Tashakur” is “Thanks,” or “thank you” in Pashtun. I’m assuming the whole phrase translates, basically, as “thank you very much”, or “many thanks””although General Allen may just as well have declared that he was willing to kiss their *sses.

    He started out his address with “As-Salam Alaikum””this is especially creepy, since this is only supposed to be uttered by one “believer” to another. Muslims, in fact, are *forbidden* from greeting Infidels in this manner, as it is too respectful.

    It essentially means “Peace be Upon You””yes, the same disturbing appellation as (PBUH) that follows any reference to the vile “Prophet”.

    “As-Salam” is one of the names of Allah. It refers to “surrender””which seems all too apt here. Ugh.

    In any case, it is all pandering of the worst sort.

  49. says

    Thanks Iron Duke. (Forgive my popular designation?)
    Here is an English literary critic: EWTN Bookmark – Through Shakespeare’s Eyes – Doug Keck with Joseph Pearce – 10-03-2010
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tit_EcrgX0
    Joseph Pearce has written on (eg) Shakespeare and Tolkien. I find him interesting and fair.
    Also:
    Shadowplay: The Hidden Beliefs and Coded Politics of William Shakespeare
    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Shadowplay-Beliefs-Politics-William-Shakespeare/dp/1586483161/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1329871296&sr=8-1
    (I have only listened to talks on this work. I haven’t read it. Sounds good though.)

  50. says

    “one who can put in Hamlet’s mouth the phrase, “…there is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so,” is highly unlikely to be a Christian who is “merely” placing words for a character to speak which he personally very much disagrees with. If you have ANY evidence of Shakespeare being a believer, ”

    That line is spoken by Hamlet early (Act 2) in the play, when he is wracked by the problem of meaning in a world where murder of his father (the King) by a man (the King’s own brother) whom his mother loves either wittingly or unwittingly colluding with that murderer makes him question all meaning. Christianity doesn’t cure such questions and pain and uncertainty during trying times, much less obviate their trial during sometimes long periods of time. I’d rather say that a playwright who indicated such a Pollyannaish function of the Gospel would be the true betrayer of Christianity. And Hamlet is after all a tragedy which, before Modernity, meant often that there is no happy ending, but meaning and order won through suffering. That was one major point of medieval Christendom; that this life has no happy ending on its terms; hence the need for an “other life” toward which this life, and all of history, is in tension. And there would be no tension (and thus no need for faith and hope) were all the answers already cleared up. Modern evangelical Christianity has tended to turn life, with all its mystery, paradox, pain and joys, into some kind of dispensable waiting room for an equally dreary heaven; and thus the Gospel into an answer as lackluster and false as the life whose full catastrophe and curious cul-de-sacs are being studiously avoided through some bargain-basement construction propped up not by passion but by obsession with certainty (with the insult of small minds added to the primary injury).

    The fact that Christendom could produce a poet and playwright like Shakespeare (for he, and other “skeptics” of that epochal period in history did not drop in a spaceship from the sky from the Planet Modernity) who does not spell out the Gospel like a brutely simple-minded primer by John Bunyan, but plumbs the mysteries and vagaries of life with magnanimity not only of spirit but also of intellect and perspective, reflects on the greatness of Christianity (not to mention that Shakespeare was free to flourish successfully as an artist without being persecuted nor his works burned by mobs of thousands calling for the deaths of him and his colleagues).

    The Christians who wish to limit the greatness of Christianity to an order that cannot embrace a Shakespeare just because he doesn’t reduce life’s art and art’s life to a literal psalter are as small-minded as the non-Christians who would reduce life itself to a binary choice between Shakespeare and Christianity as though the two were mutually exclusive because the literal surface seems to display no obviously unproblematic nexus between the stichs and strophes of the one and the jots and tittles of the other.

    P.S.: The Macbeth line is spoken by a King gone mad; which, to impute to Shakespeare’s personal philosophy would be like imputing to Aeschylus Prometheus’s aspersion against all the gods.

  51. says

    Thank you for the links, gerard. I went to both of them and I must say that I am completely unpersuaded by either. Joseph Pearce, right up front, almost lost me (though I continued to watch the video) when he said that evidence of Shakespeare’s “hidden” Catholicism included the fact that he set plays in the past in a Catholic world before the Reformation and some in Italy which, of course, remained Catholic. Wow, if you’re going to be as tendentious as this, you can find anything you want to in whatever you come across.

    Then there was the Clare Asquith work which, apparently, contends that all kinds of coded messages were in Shakespeare’s works that are revealing of his buried Catholicism. Might as well adopt one of the many conspiracy theories about 9/11 as think this work has merit. Sorry, gerard, but I have not had my assessment of Shakespeare as a skeptic to the very essence of his being altered whatsoever.

  52. says

    Clare Asquith and Joseph Pearce are not the only voices on this point.
    I think you have dismissed them rather lightly.
    But no matter.
    “skeptic to the very essence of his being”…
    I wonder..are you talking about Shakespeare or yourself?
    Staying with Hamlet, one of the 3 plays Pearce discusses,
    there are many Christian (and explicitly Catholic) references in this play.
    “There is a special providence in the fall of a sparrow”?
    Matthew 10;31.
    “Now cracks a noble heart. Good-night, sweet prince; And flights of angels sing thee to thy rest.” ~Hamlet,V,ii
    A direct “lift” from the Christian (and Catholic) funeral rite as later expressed in the modern hymn “May the choirs of angels come to greet you”.
    “I am thy father’s spirit,
    Doom’d for a certain term to walk the night,
    And for the day confined to fast in fires,
    Till the foul crimes done in my days of nature
    Are burnt and purged away.”
    A reference to the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory.
    I cite these few Catholic references since they are significant in Elizabethan England, when Catholics were persecuted and Catholic priests were killed.
    The more generally Christian references are too many too list.
    I would say that while Catholicism was banned in Elizabethan England, Shakespeare kept the memory alive in many of his plays.

  53. says

    “he set plays in the past in a Catholic world before the Reformation”
    -Many of Shakespeare’s historical plays eg Julius Caesar, were set in those times precisely to avoid current reference. “I am Richard II, know ye not that?”. Elizabeth.

  54. says

    “they are past help.”

    But we are not. The West needs to start protecting itself against Islam.
    Ironically, I think, that will be when Islam could be helped: ie when it is allowed to collapse and/or is totally defeated. Then those peoples who wish to abandon Islam and join humanity could indeed be helped.
    As Victor Davis Hanson often points out, Western nation are magnanimous to a defeated enemy. What we currently have is the absurd situation of of appeasement which is so to speak, magnanimity towards an undefeated enemy. This has been shown again and again not to work.

  55. says

    Well, Wellington, while I have not spent the time to familiarize myself with the numerous scholarly articles written in various journals probing this question over the past 200 years, I have read all of Shakespeare’s plays three times each, and his Sonnets once; and while a case can be made that it is at least remarkable that all that wealth of investment in prose and poetry over a “rich pageant” of subjects is rather conspicuously lacking in the kinds of bluntly overt and copiously chockablock references to Christian basics (including, foremost, of course, the two Testaments) certain Christian (and anti-Christian) polemicists expect to see in someone who is supposed to be a Christian — I would say there is nothing in Shakespeare to rule him out as such, and actually quite a lot (of insights into life, love and justice, for Christ’s sake) to make any intelligent Christian proud (let alone willing) to count him as a fellow. That, coupled with the historical fact that it would be extraordinarily rare for anyone in his time and place to be “not a Christian” (Rabelais being perhaps among the exceptions that prove the rule).

    And, for what it’s worth, when T.S. Eliot wrote (by that time having evolved from a pair of ragged claws scuttling across the floors of forgotten seas to an Anglican) that —

    Dante had Heaven, Shakespeare had Earth; there is no third

    — it’s safe to say he didn’t mean to exclude Earth from Christianity.

  56. says

    Thank you for your reply. Well, I have concentrated my intellectual pursuits on history, law and anthropology and not literature, but, while I have not read Shakespeare to the extent you have, to the extent that I have I formed long ago a conviction, entirely in isolation from any scholarly assessments, that the Bard from Stratford-upon-Avon was someone who was extremely sophisticated, talented with the English language beyond all measure and possessed of an almost unbelievable intellect who concluded that no religion had it right, or even mostly right, but who probably allowed for some kind of an ineffable Higher Authority in a universe which will forever remain a deep mystery for all who are not doctrinaire. For what it’s worth, and it might not be much, that’s my take on this particular matter.

  57. says

    Anne Crocket wrote:

    I had a look at his biography. I am not surprised to see that he is just another idiot Baby Boomer. Worst Generation Ever.
    ………………………..

    While I agree with your general characterization of Baby Boomers, Anne, remember *this*:

    *Everyone* born in the United States between the years 1946 and 1964 is a Baby Boomer”that would be everyone currently between the ages of forty-eight and sixty-six years old.

    There were 76 million people born during these years, of which there are about 72 million still with us.

    They don’t just include clueless appeasers like General Allen.

    They also include Robert Spencer, Pamela Geller, Daniel Pipes, and many other stalwart anti-Jihadists”as well as many posters here, including myself. I was born near the end of this period.

    General Allen has chosen to play the dhimmi”his birth generation did not compel him to do so.

  58. says

    Gerard, Wellington, and LemonLime, I have really enjoyed your discussion about Shakespeare. OT, but very interesting.

    I have certainly noticed that Shakespeare’s work is in no way overtly religious”but I also know that he often set his plays in other periods or milieus to more easily make political and social observations.

    In any case, he would never have settled for expressing simple homilies. He is an endlessly complex artist, whose work can be read in many ways.

    A few years ago, I saw a staging of Richard III staring Ian McKellan with a quasi-Fascist setting. As a rule, I am not a fan of anachronistic stagings”but this was a quite brilliant interpretation.

    Would Shakespeare’s work lend itself to a criticism of Jihad? With his hatred of cruelty and tyranny, I believe it might well.