Colorado student who wouldn’t sing song praising Allah quits school after death threats

Waiting for the “moderate” Muslim spokesmen in the U.S. to denounce this murderous thuggery. Honest Ibe? Boy Reza? Man of Peace Rauf? Anyone? Anyone?

An update on this story.

Video courtesy Gateway Pundit.

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Comments

  1. says

    It seems to me that Tawhid, the very vessel with which Islamic supremacism can be pushed onto unbelievers, can no longer be contained or even kept out of the civilized world’s school system.

    James Harper knew instinctively at this tender age that something was profoundly wrong with Islam seeping into his school, and now he has to pay the price for it ! If anything, it proves that the OIC’s devastating intentions to act accordingly with regards to Tawhid are already next to establishing themselves as irrevocable in our society !

    This is serious indeed.

  2. says

    Do we have confirmation of the threats yet? I haven’t found any yet. Announcer says student says he’s “facing” death threats, but student doesn’t say this in the quote provided.

  3. says

    Surely not in AMERICA?
    Isn’t it only ENGLAND and FRANCE that this is supposed to happen?
    I did warn y’all many years ago that you have it as bad as us in Blighty, but I was often shot down that it “would never happen in the US – we have GUNS!” – well, it’s happening.
    Give it a couple more years and your guns will be taken away from you (well, stores will stop selling them and ammo). Why? Well, with those you can fight back. Obama, and the other Western leaders who have decided that Islam is the way have made that decision for us.
    It was planned – maybe for decades – that Islam would take over. Our politicians have betrayed us as they are in on it.
    Why? Well, they probably think we are living in a PC (post Christian – it doesn’t REALLY stand for politically correct) world and aren’t as easy to control as we were back in the 50s – so WE need replacing with people who are easier to control using ISLAM as the mechanism.

    Sometime soon – maybe even THIS very year, a plague will be unleashed to reduce our numbers massively. Islamic terrorist will be the alleged culprits.
    When the numbers are low enough to control – well, that’s what they want……

  4. says

    Muslims always do what they do best – threat, intimidate, kill, rape,…

    Not surprised by their behavior. I am surprised that with is kind of record Muslims are allowed to come in this country. Shame!!

    Why don’t we hear anything about this story of death threat in NYTimes and the rest of PC MC MSM???

  5. says

    This is a complete fucking outrage! Please tell me you’re kidding!
    This makes me sick to my stomach.
    muslims make me sick!
    There has got to be something I/we can do.
    I AM going to do something. I just don’t know what yet.

  6. says

    All details of these threats need to be immediately publicised. Everyone needs to see why an American student can no longer safely attend his school.

    But I do hope that James Harper does go back to school to face these threats down. More of us will be doing this in the future, so we will need our heros to inspire us.

  7. says

    As believers in a peaceful religion Christians should not sing hyms praising the warrier god Allah. What is wrong with a high spirited Christian hymn:

    “Onward, Christian soldiers, marching as to war,
    with the cross of Jesus going on before.
    Christ, the royal Master, leads against the foe;
    forward into battle see his banners go!”

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsbAba0qLHI&feature=related

    I think Muslims would just love this hymn. 😉

  8. says

    I am asking for your help, JWers.
    Please contact these school officials and voice your opinion. The following contact info was taken from the schools web site. This is a start. I’m not done yet.

    Bilbo, Jon – Building Principal –
    jbilbo@mesa.k12.co.us

    Coburn, Carol – Assistant Principal – carol.coburn@d51schools.org

    Eidinger, Jason – Assistant Principal – eidinger@mesa.k12.co.us

    Moore, Jami – Assistant Principal –
    jamim@mesa.k12.co.us

    Pollert, Ned – Activities and Athletics Director – ned.pollert@d51schools.org

  9. says

    According to Muhammad, this choir will soon be … transformed!!!

    Muhammad said: “From among my followers there will be some people who will consider … the use of musical instruments, as lawful … Allah will destroy them during the night and will let the mountain fall on them, and He will transform the rest of them into monkeys and pigs and they will remain so till the Day of Resurrection.” (Bukhari, 7.69.494)

    http://crossmuslims.blogspot.com/2011/09/stoned-by-monkeys.html

  10. says

    Colorado student who wouldn’t sing song praising Allah quits school after death threats
    ……………………..

    This boy is *receiving death threats*?

    I’m appalled. Is law enforcement going to track them down?

    And remember”this boy and his family live *in small-town Colorado*”hardly a Muslim enclave. If they are not safe here, where would they be safe?

  11. says

    And to comment on this story: Did anyone doubt that this young man would receive death threats? As soon as this first appeared on JW, you knew what was coming, yes?

    Well, I hope -but really I’m not hopeful- his bravery helps to open eyes. Those officials who see this nothing more than as they explained it, just art, haven’t a clue. Their ignorance is shocking, and not a little scary.

    Stick to your guns, young man. You are the smart one.

  12. says

    This changes everything.

    When I read the original story, my reaction was: “This is not newsworthy.” Choir selects song to which student objects. Student resigns from choir. School confirms that choir is not compulsory and student was free to resign at any time. End of story.

    But… death threats? Islamists usually hand those out to people who speak, not to people who keep quiet.

    So either the student is an attention-seeker who has manufactured some kind of victim-status for himself so he can see his picture in the papers. Or the sender of the death-threats is a deranged lone operator who is easily incited to anti-social behaviour outside of the norms of his own group.

    Or else some very serious-level terrorism/hate crime is going on. Let’s hope the police are investigating.

  13. says

    Sing or die. Okay, similiar approach to ‘American Idol’ but with AK-47s. Still, I don’t think that music is halal. The prophet was tone deaf.

  14. says

    “…Waiting for the “moderate” Muslim spokesmen in the U.S. to denounce this murderous thuggery. Honest Ibe? Boy Reza? Man of Peace Rauf? Anyone? Anyone?”

    err…. Obama…perhaps? He would be a moderate…perhaps?

  15. says

    To the guy that insinuates that these threats don’t happen in the U.S. and only in Europe. This is not the first time, remember the guys behind South Park, that woman in Seattle that dissapeared, had to change her name, had to move out and get special federal protection, the guy who wanted to burn the Quran… etc. there’s many cases just in the U.S. alone, Europe is not the only place where the religion of love and tolerance threatens non-muslims.

  16. says

    The TV reporter said that the school now claims that anyone in the choir who feels uncomfortable with the Allah song wouldn’t be required to sing it.

    Well, it’s a bit too late to make such a statement. The damage is done. It will be interesting to see if the whole choir elects not to sing the song, or if the song is dropped from the program altogether. What this story does reveal is the extent of Islamic influence in this country, and the scope of dhimmitude especially in the public school system, which is using history textbooks that whitewash Islam.

  17. says

    I find this most disturbing. This young man expressed his dislike and disapproval of being coerced into singing praise to a religious hymn that he felt was dishonoring his religious views. He made a conscience decision to not participate. It wasn’t offensive, and it wasn’t expressed with disrespect towards the Islamic religious society in his given area.
    Yet, this young man gets death threats leveled towards him for not capitulating his religious personal belief. And the leaders of the area who are Muslim failed to defend this young man for not understanding his belief.
    Is this Muslim people heresy if a Muslim were to sell out his religious faith? And why didn’t the Islamic Mullah’s of this area not defending him in understanding that this young man’s faith was equally being threatened the same as a Muslim being asked to sing praise or damn his belief?
    This isn’t — just a hymn — its a song of religious significance to a religious faith being presented by a Public School group being lead by a Public School teacher. If this were to have been conducted by the same Public School, and singing a Christian hymn, at a Public School event. Liberal anti Christian groups would have gone wild demanding stoppage of the event or another song inserted to remove all Christian religious faith beliefs. Much the same as the Public School systems removing Christmas or Easter from the Public School system.
    It goes both ways here Public School Boards. If you target a Christian you equally have to target other religious faiths. And this young man doesn’t deserve quitting school.

  18. says

    His whole family and every one of his relatives, neighbors and friends should tell the
    a/h that they will all be waiting to welcome them with very well equiped materiel fully
    legal under the Second Amendent whose parts have been cleaned with a special form of lubricant utilizing swine oil. Moreover the call has gone out for re-inforcementrs who will be guarding the boy, his family, and neighbors round the clock and yes we have night vision goggles. Anyone wanting to join the party is welcome. Hell if it works for another Coloradan so threatened it damn well ought to work for a whole passle of them. Hyenas
    attack in packs. Muslims need to learn at first hand that their rage has become something
    our ancestors would not have tolerated, our grandparents eradicated and we are rapidly
    becoming awakened enough to make a stand. Hurt one of us and we hurt lots of you. Hear Us allahasshole !

  19. says

    Too much is being made of a merely ironical comment by Ole Hartling.

    Too little is being made of the fact that there is no confirmation that this student “faced” (received?) death threats. The secondary sources I’ve come across all either refer back to the remark by the Fox News presenter, or else simply repeat the claim without a source.

    Does anyone here know if this claim about “death threats” has been verified?

  20. says

    “As I’ve said, those of us who accept the Just War theory can now “understand” the Crusades and Reconquista, even if we are uncomfortable with their legacies, due to a careful reading of our religion’s original textual source ” — Kepha

    Kepha and Ole Hartling cannot have it both ways.

    1) the Crusades as a whole was a series of defensive battles against an evil, brutal occupying force that had brutally invaded then proceeded to make life hell for centuries for the Christian inhabitants of a region who had, prior to those hellish invasions, become part of the culture of the region (indeed, the entire Middle East, Mesopotamian, and North Africa) for centuries

    2) at the time of Pope Urban, Christianity was a much more influential and active part of society. Many Christians today whine about being excluded from society and laws, which are deemed to be too secular and un-Christian.

    Well, if you want more influence and participation in a society’s culture and laws (as Christians had during Pope Urban’s time), along with that increased influence and participation comes the responsibility to participate in that society’s defense against evil violent supremacist wolves, as the Muslims were (and continue to be).

    So stop your carping and trying to have your cake and eat it too. Either support the Crusades and be proud of the Christians of the time who had the brains and balls to support them; or be the irresponsible Social Isolationists-cum-Evangelical Libertarians which your logic would lead you to be (based upon narrow-minded interpretation of Scripture and a stunted perception of the meaning of living in this life — mysteriously untransformed-by-the-eschaton — along with its continued obligations and responsibilities).

    But you can’t have both. At least not while earning any intellectual or ethical respect.

  21. says

    David,

    “Aren’t “many whining Christians” attempting to be more vocal and influential? ”

    My “having it both ways” remark was only referring to the Christians who want more sociopolitico-cultural influence, but are against the Crusades as being “un-Christian” because “Jesus wouldn’t have done it”. So what kind of influence do they want? They want to stop abortion but allow millions of Muslims to remain within our borders?

  22. says

    David,

    And the business of Christians “deeming that society and laws” are exclusionary to them – is confusing. Firstly, it is because all members of society, by definition, are included whether they realize and/or approve of it or not.

    You used the word “exclusionary”, not me. So you are constructing the conceptual problem that is confusing you. How about we keep it simple and say that the Christians I’m referring to don’t like modern Western society/culture the way it is. Certainly that’s not a logical conundrum to tie you up in knots — just a matter of like/dislike.

    “In simple words, one cannot feel, or be, “excluded” from society.”

    One can feel practically anything. Feelings aren’t necessarily coherent or consistent — unless you’re Data from Star Trek: The Next Generation. The point here is feeling that society is not fairly or adequately respecting and representing your values.

    But you should have already guessed that, and I shouldn’t have to explain such elementary things to you.

    “What, exactly would you say, “un-Christian” means?”

    It would be the opposite of “Christian”, which has had several different meanings throughout history — thus “un-Christian” would have had, and has, several different meanings corresponding to its various opposites.

  23. says

    PC MC is as PC MC does: irrational, complacent and cowardly. No surprises there, really. Appeasement is all that matters to them: “Sit tight and keep quite !”

  24. says

    Saleh: there is an Iranian saying that says:
    Reedam beh ghabresh! which means I shit on his grave! this is very insulting if you say that about someone!
    so you can say about muhammad if you want to!!!!

  25. says

    Please refer to the prior postings to re-indulge yourself with this topic and the resound refutations you elicited whilst straying from topic in your renewed attempt at turning JW into christianwatch.
    Wikipedia has created quite an impressive number of scholars which are endowed with the clip and paste gifts.

    Everyone else, sorry for the straying, back on course all eyes fixed on the jihad before us.

    http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/01/muslim-who-fired-gun-out-of-car-while-shouting-allah-akbar-pleads-guilty-to-targeting-military-sites.html

    http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/01/muslim-who-fired-gun-out-of-car-while-shouting-allah-akbar-pleads-guilty-to-targeting-military-sites.html

  26. says

    As Christians in belief and action, we bound ourselves by the tenants and doctrines which also do not only permit but require sound and wise reasoning meeting the tests of our good conscience. For example, we create police swat teams for the purpose of preventing the potential murder of innocent civilians and the arrest when possible of these killers. We find it just for a sniper to take out someone holding a knife against the throat of a child. We support our troops when they go out risking their lives to saves all of us form tyrannies such as naziism and islamism. Within these activities do Chrisitans “march on” and sometimes kill others thereby breaking the fifth commandment? They simply do not, since by the totality and completenss of biblical creed, they are fulfilling what which is morally required and established especially as members of civil authority whose purpose is just and righteous.
    Sometimes in reality evil has to be defended against with might and war, even Christians can defend themselves, so yes onward Christian soldiers march on, fight the good fight.

    good ole’ chap, the dart you threw has come back to you puncturing the little little wormwood vessel you’ve been trying to navigate with, quick grab some sence, you’re sinking fast..

  27. says

    Ole Hartling wrote:

    As believers in a peaceful religion Christians should not sing hyms praising the warrier god Allah. What is wrong with a high spirited Christian hymn:

    “Onward, Christian soldiers, marching as to war…

    I think Muslims would just love this hymn. 😉
    ……………………………

    Oh, good grief, Ole”don’t you understand symbolism?

    This hymn has been adopted by the Salvation Army”sounds pretty martial, huh? As it turns out, not so much”besides the uniforms and giving their higher-ranking employees mock-military designations.

    I briefly worked for the Salvation Army when I was in college”the director was “Captain” something or other.

    How “warlike” is this outfit? Well, they collect donations for charity at Christmas via their famous “Red Kettle” bell ringers and through the large chain of thrift stores, run rehab for alcoholics and drug addicts, run after-school youth programs, run food banks, and help the community in cases of natural disaster.

    In other words, they *are a charity*. A real charity, which helps those in need.

    Here’s the Salvation Army Brass Band playing “Onward Christian Soldiers”:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNybISeZdg0

    Here’s more about the Salvation Army in general:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Salvation_Army

  28. says

    Ole, min Norske Landsman, since you choose to sit in the seat of the scornful (Psalm 1), I guess you think your using of Sabine Baring-Gould’s hymn a clever and witty piece of irony. And, I suppose that that hymn, sung to a tune by none other than Arthur Sullivan, no less, is the thing for which the good Mr. Sabine-Gould, rector of CofE parishes in Devon and Cornwall and enthusiastic antiquarian, folklorist, etc., is best remembered for is in a way sort of ironic.

    However, speaking from inside the world of supposedly woman-eating, LGBT-stoning wannabe, backwards, militant (at least in the eyes of its detractors) **!-Ugh! Fundamentalism!**myself, I wonder if you are aware of how many truly sincere pacifists sing Mr. Baring-Gould’s hymn? And here, I testify as someone who accepts Augustine’s just war theory far more than I’m tempted by Menno Simons’ pacifism.

    But, to translate the Christian’s spiritual warfare into Islamic terms, it really is more what the “moderates” (?) wish us to understand as the “greater jihad” against what’s wrong with ourselves.

    Paul speaks of the “weapons of our warfare” in II Cor. 10:4, which are spiritual rather than carnal. Hence, the idea of the church as the militia Christi goes back to the very foundations of the faith, and has been used very effectively in its literature and spirituality through the ages. Yet many who wholeheartedly accept such imagery and seek to be warriors against the world, the flesh, and the devil–and who heartily sing Baring-Gould’s hymn–would be horrified should you suggest that they must go out and threaten their neighbors’ with death if they don’t convert. And given that Paul had no armed men at his beck and call, nor did Christians have any political power until King Agbar of Osrhoene became a Christian around A.D. 150, such Christian “warriors” who fume and thunder at the devil while turning the other cheek towards obnoxious flesh-and-blood neighbors do indeed have the “foundations” of the faith on their side.

    Yes, I know that we **Ugh!–fundamentalists!** are supposed to be preparing racks and thumbscrews to be installed in secret dungeons beneath the US Capitol (wooo-OOOO–Aaaah!), and replace the Thanksgiving turkey with live-stewed liberated Lesibian on holiday tables across America. Surely Huffington Post and various Marxists would NEVER lie to you. But I do not think that I’m alone among the conscientiously Christian posters here who cautions against making the Gospel appear to be a literal club over people’s heads; and who thinks that the movement of Muslim immigrants in the West towards Christianity, or the re-appearance of Christian congregations in Kabylia, southern Anatolia, and Iran a far greater, truly God-pleasing victory than driving people “bag and baggae” out of Europe and America.

  29. says

    Bravo! I’ve always been suspicious of Hartling’s platform.

    And, as an atheist I agree with you wholeheartedly that:

    “Sometimes in reality evil has to be defended against with might and war,even Christians can defend themselves, so yes onward Christian soldiers march on, fight the good fight.”

    I suspect that Hartling is trying to goat rope everyone into the “muslims are only fighting defensively” or more relativism such as “you see it as a good fight and they see it as aggression.”

    I’m tired of the moral relativists and atheists who are cozy with muslims brow beating Christians with the “you’re not true Christians if you believe/support/participate in war!”

    Makes me wonder if such folks ponder what the result of ww2 would have been if all of the Christians had not taken up arms against the axis?

  30. says

    Actually, Grand Junction does have a musloid problem thanks to Mesa university. But, you know me, just ONE musloid is a problem.

    I’m sure, they, just like Colorado State uni., aggressively scout for foreign students. Although a quick gander at Mesa’s website doesn’t list an MSA. Yet.

    I’m also sure the death threats were coming from Boulder, Aurora, or Fort Collins (home of the elementary school in which the soddy barbarian flag was placed above the American flag).

    The metro area has a lot of soddy barbarian musloids and NOIers and the local stations showed the above clip all day long yesterday.

    So for those of us in Colorado the death threats against a student in a sleepy Western Slope town come as no surprise.

  31. says

    Actually, Grand Junction does have a musloid problem thanks to Mesa university. But, you know me, just ONE musloid is a problem.

    I’m sure, they, just like Colorado State uni., aggressively scout for foreign students. Although a quick gander at Mesa’s website doesn’t list an MSA. Yet.

    I’m also sure the death threats were coming from Boulder, Aurora, or Fort Collins (home of the elementary school in which the soddy barbarian flag was placed above the American flag).

    The metro area has a lot of soddy barbarian musloids and NOIers and the local stations showed the above clip all day long yesterday.

    So for those of us in Colorado the death threats against a student in a sleepy Western Slope town come as no surprise.

  32. says

    That’s quite a scenario VP presents, sounds like apocyliptic sc-fi. He writes “It was planned – maybe for decades – that Islam would take over. Our politicians have betrayed us as they are in on it.” One does have to wonder about this, even be a bit, or highly, anxious about its possibility. VP seems to have thrown in the towel on its inevitability. I’m not “yet” at that psychological juncture. Maybe sometime this year, or within the next two to three years, the world will finally know if global islamization is going to be/can be stopped, or will be on its way to world dominance. What is frightening for me about the later is how that end will be achieved. That is no longer the stuff of science fiction.

  33. says

    Thank you, I hope you are an Ex-istanbul chick. That part of the globe quickly declined as a place of good prospects, some plus 500 years ago, due to some mysterious disease flowing in from the Arabian peninsula afflicting the very souls, intellects and spirits of all it’s subjugated inhabitants.

    It is tempting to bring along our pet agendas, after we first ingratiate ourselves into the forum by making the perfunctory lambasting of islam. There is a tendency by some, such as ole’ h to attempt to propagandize his hatred for Christians. His is sort of infantile game, if you want me to go along the idea of defeating jihad, then Christianity must also go..

  34. says

    “Oh, good grief, Ole”don’t you understand symbolism?”

    I do. But I also know people interpret symbols in different ways. That is why I asked a simple question: “What is wrong with a high spirited Christian hymn?”(Onward Christian soldiers).

    The answer could be that nothing is wrong with it, or that everything is wrong with it, or somewhere in between.

    What is wrong with jihad? Nothing is wrong with jihad if understood as an inner spiritual struggle to do the right thing; and everything is wrong with jihad if it means obligatory warfare against the infidels until there is only the religion of Allah.

    Let us try the Muslim version of the “Jew test”:

    “Onward, Muslim soldiers, marching as to war,
    with the words of Muhammad going on before.
    Allah, the royal Master, leads against the foe;
    forward into battle see his banners go!”

    I don’t think Christians would like this version, but Muslims would have no objections, but surely prefer another symbolic and poetic expression of the peaceful strugge (jihad) of Muslims:

    “The mosques are our barracks, the domes our helmets, the minarets our bayonets and the faithful our soldiers…”

    Nothing about marching as to war in this poem, but some expressions from the military vocabular connected to symbols of faith – just like in the Christian hymn. So should it be interpreted symbolic or as an incitement to religious or racial hatred?

    According to a tribunal in Ankara, Turkey in 1997, the poem should not be understood symbolic and the author was given a ten month prison sentence under article 312/2 of the Turkish penal code for incitement to commit an offense and incitement to religious or racial hatred.

    I would say that both the Christian hymn and the turkish poem are open to interpretation, and some people obviously got the wrong ideas from both symbolic expressions of faith. The creator of the wideo connected the “marching Christian soldiers” to the Crusades, and I would not be surprised if the Norwegian terrorist and mass murder Breivik – the Crusader – was humming the hymn during the killings.

    I connected to the Crusades and not Salvation Army when reading the hymn.

    When Pope Urban II called for a holy war against the Turks in 1095 he said:

    “If you must have blood, bathe in the blood of the infidels. I speak to you with harsness because my ministry obliges me to do so. Soldiers of Hell, become soldiers of the living God!” The crowd suddently roared back at him: “God wills it!”, “Dieu li volt!”

    “Yes indeed”, Urban II answered. “Yes, it is the will of God. You today see the accomplishment of the word of our saviour, who promised to be in the midst of the faithful, when assembled in his name; it is He who dictated you the words that I have heard. Let them be your war cry, and let them announce everywhere the presence of the God of armies!”

    Jesus never used violence against his enemies, not even to defend himself when arrested on false charges. He preached to love our enemies and forgive them. So I think it is a very bad idea, even in a symbolic way, to connect the Christian faith with any symbols of war. The Christian God has no armies fighting foes under the banner of Christ.

  35. says

    How come the school chose that song?

    The song was chosen because of its rhythm?? and “other qualities”? What other qualities?

    “Student resigns from choir. School confirms that choir is not compulsory and student was free to resign at any time. ”

    But he he not only resigned from the choir he dropped out of school.

    And wasnt the choir master free to choose another song?

    Who is running that school?

  36. says

    “Or else some very serious-level terrorism/hate crime is going on. ”

    Islam is very effective at targeting the soft targets. What needs to be investigated how many other outback schools are infected by the similar messages of allah – disguised as “RoP”? To me, the rhyme sounds somewhat similar to shahada. This is just a subtle psychological approach used by the Muslims to make the Shahada sound more palatable and the conversion to Islam can be made seamlessly – i.e. everybody will think, we are the same family Christians/Jews/Islam hence if their son/daughter converts that’s no big deal.

    That thinking has been going on since the Carter’s years. Obama appears to have accelerated the implementation. One of the main reasons Obama was selected to lead the Democrats was to appease the Islamic countries..

  37. says

    Istanbul Chick wrote:

    Actually, Grand Junction does have a musloid problem thanks to Mesa university.
    ……………………..

    Bleah”I hadn’t realized that. Of course, I knew that had been several incidents of Jihad in Colorado”the flag incident that you note, and “Jihad Jane” who was part of the recent plot to murder Lars Vilks.

    And of course, one of the granddaddies of “modern” Jihad”the Muslim Brotherhood’s Sayyid Qutb’studied at University in Colorado.

    Still, I generally consider Colorado one of the less Jihad-ridden states.

    I guess it just goes to show that there is really no state in the union that is free of vicious Muslims”and foolish dhimmi Infidels all too willing to cluelessly enable the Islamic agenda.

    Incidentally, Istanbul Chick, it’s really great to see you posting regularly again.

  38. says

    As for connecting “Onward Christian Soldiers” to Pope Urban II, I have the following observations:

    (1) When Sabine Baring-Gould wrote his hymn in the 1890’s, Pope Urban was long dead. There was, however, a long tradition of Christian work in Britain towards social amelioration, which began with Wilberforce’s campaign against slavery.

    (2) As for the Christian God having no armies to fight for Him, I beg to differ. I worship The LORD Sabaoth (traditional English transliteration of the Hebrew), the LORD of Hosts. His armies include whatever in Heaven and Earth that He chooses to use, including idolatrous Assyrian kings. If he could bring an Assyrian host against rebellious Israel in the middle of the first millennium B.C., he can do the same against a rebellious ex-Christendom in the 21st century–even if, ultimately, the King of Assyria and the Muslim terrorists bend the knee to the Risen Christ to the praise of God’s glorious justice rather than to the praise of God’s glorious grace.

    (3) And, since we’re talking history, we may move on to the Crusades and how’ve they’ve been seen.

    (4) Being shocked at Urban II’s promise of paradise to those who fall in the Crusade is nothing new, nor did it begin with the sensitive idiots of the so-called Enlightenment. Back in the 1500’s, William Tyndale, the father of the English Bible, wrote in his _The Obedience of a Christian_ used Urban’s promise as an example of Papal arrogance that had no warrant in the Word of God; even if Tyndale had no qualms with the Augustinian concept of the Just War.

    (5) Since history’s still going on, the current furor islamicus will probably result in future Christian historians taking a fresh, and more positive post-PeeCeeEmCee look at the Crusades (and, perhaps, the Church of the East Mongol onslaught against Islam).

    Being descended from both Central European and Sephardic Jews on my father’s side and being a Protestant rather than a Roman Catholic, I cannot take a completely positive view of either the Crusades or the Spanish Reconquista. However, having been raised in the bosom of 20th century American liberalism with its cult of “understanding”, I consider myself now free to understand both movements. Perhaps they were not exactly the victories that the divine precepts should have nurtured, but I can see both as providential. Perhaps they provided a buffer to allow the development of a better understanding of Christ and His work in the world; just as the power of Pagan Rome, which I identify with the legs and feet of the great idol of Nebuchadnezzar’s dream (Daniel 2) and the Beast of Seven Heads in Revelation, nonetheless provided the proper time for Messiah Jesus to appear.

    So our Christian God does indeed have great hosts to fight for Him.

  39. says

    “As for connecting “Onward Christian Soldiers” to Pope Urban II, I have the following observations:”

    Not every Christian group of strong believers connected the spirited hymn to the Crusades. I have the following observations about the Ku Klux Klan:

    “Most Americans think of the Ku Klux Klan as a Southern institution, mainly targeting African-Americans. However, in the years following the First World War, the Ku Klux Klan enjoyed a nationwide revival wielding considerable influence in the North and Midwest, as well as the South. This so-called “Second Klan” aimed its propaganda not only at African-Americans, but also at Catholics, Jews and “foreigners.”

    Can you guess which Christian hymn the Klan preferred? Right, “Onward Christian Soldiers”:

    Brunswick Record, February 14, 1924, page 6, reveals that the classic Klan activity – cross-burning – was among the weekend activities on the agenda in Brunswick:

    “… The Ku Klux Klan had an illuminated cross burning near the Red Men’s hall last Friday night which could be seen from almost any point on the island. Several of the clansmen stood at the foot of the cross while it was burning and sang “Onward Christian Soldiers”, accompanied by a cornet which was being played in the hall. The music was loudly applauded by a large number of people who were in attendance at the supper at the M. E. vestry.”

    The article reveals a close connection between one local Protestant church and the Klan. The Klan attends the church event “in a body” and after the Church “sociable,” supper is followed by a cross-burning to the strains of the hymn “Onward Christian Soldiers.” Of course, the christian soldiers in question could be none other than the clansmen themselves. I guess the hymn put the clansmen in the right Christian spirit before they went out to burn some niggers.

    That is why I wrote:

    “I would say that both the Christian hymn and the Turkish poem are open to interpretation, and some people obviously got the wrong ideas from both symbolic expressions of faith.”

    The problem is that you can always find justification for hatred and violence in the Old Testament. Pope Urban II did, Martin Luther did when he wrote “The Jews and their lies”, republished exactly 400 years later by the Nazis who celebrated Luther’s birthday by burning the synagogs on Crystal Night, thus following the first advise given by Luther.

    Here a memorable quote from the movie “Mississippi Burning”:

    “Mrs. Pell: It’s not good for you to be here.

    Agent Anderson: Why?

    Mrs. Pell: It’s ugly. This whole thing is so ugly. Have you any idea what it’s like to live with all this? People look at us and only see bigots and racists. Hatred isn’t something you’re born with. It gets taught. At school, they said segregation what’s said in the Bible… Genesis 9, Verse 27. At 7 years of age, you get told it enough times, you believe it. You believe the hatred. You live it… you breathe it. You marry it.”

    (“May God extend the territory of Japheth; may Japheth live in the tents of Shem, and may Canaan be his slave.” (Genesis 9:27).

    Now you see how your symbolism or right context works in practice?

    I am short on time but will comment further later.

  40. says

    Ole, your reply to me was quite pertinent, especially since you mention the heyday of the Klan during the 1920’s. Those were years of major cultural ferment and change, including the dawning of an era in which the American Protestant churches with an educated clergy succumbed to theological liberalism (which, I suspect, was a disease to which the genteel were probably more prone than the unwashed masses). At the same time, those in the Credo-baptist, Wesleyan, and Campbellite traditions were finding that the self-made, earnest, informally educated backwoods preachers their circles had thrown up were not quite up to the task of discipling an incrreasingly urban population that had ceased to be heirs of either the Reformed tradition or its malcontents(the immigrant populations of those days having been formed by either Roman Catholicism, Lutheranism, or Judaism).

    Yes, I’m the first to admit that we Christians can get downright ugly. You probably cannot throw up a single ugly chapter in church history of which I am unaware. And since you raise Luther’s attack on the Jews and the Nazi use thereof, being of partly Mitteleuropisch Jewish heritage, I can’t help but note that for all their selective use of Luther, the Nazis still saw Christianity as a “Jewish poison”; and as starchy a Lutheran confessionalist as Bp. Ole Hallesby of Norway told his occupied countrymen to resist the anti-Jewish policies of the German occupation and Nasjional Samling. And I will also go so far as to note that the German churches’ owning up to their responsibility for the Holocaust in the postwar era has chiefly been used by those in the seat of the scornful to evade their own “accounting of conscience” over the [probably greater] roles of such post-enlightenment pieties as nationalism, the liberty of the state, “scientific” anthropology, critical philosophy, socialism, and romanticism in not only the Shoah, but also other great crimes of the unprecedentedly violent 20th century.

    I’m not going to avoid the issue of racism among American Christians–and heathens. The interpretation of Genesis 9:27 which you raise is a clear example of the pervasiveness of racial thinking in my country (doubtlessly born in a context of peoples who were both physically and culturally different being thrown to gether due to the advent of effective ocean travel). But, as John Haller noted in _Outcasts of Evolution_, the first use Darwinian evolution found in my country was also to buttress the doctrine of white supremacy.

    Yet, even in the spiritually decadent era of the 1920’s, there were those who took the curse on Canaan as fulfilled by Joshua (something on which both Ephrem Syrus and Calvin agreed) aand that of Japheth dwelling in the tents of Shem as fulfilled in the Gentile nations coming to be sheltered by Shem’s greatest descendant–Jesus Christ. This was the understanding of Genesis 9:27 which seems to have predominated in the era before the Age of Discovery.

    But, to return to the ferment of the interwar years, there is a troubling parallel to our own times–only now, liberal inclusivity has received a deathly challenge from one of its own client groups, namely Islamic immigration. This same challenge affects Christians as well, and it is the fear of LOTS of people like me that the way to meet it may well be intercommunal violence rather than Christian mission. And, there was then as in the period from Samuel Sewall on through the abolitionist and reconstruction eras, another undercurrent among American Protestants that saw the land’s racial sins as, well, the most serious social sin.

    As I’ve said, those of us who accept the Just War theory can now “understand” the Crusades and Reconquista, even if we are uncomfortable with their legacies, due to a careful reading of our religion’s original textual source (hence my mention of William Tyndale). And, I refer you again to the numerous occasions when I, and others, have observed that the ban on Canaan, from which some might derive a pattern of democidal warfare, has traditionally been seen as a sui generis command (and warning) while witness- and service-oriented mission remains the dominant final and lasting “marching order” for Christians. I suspect that the criticisms which non-believers such as Istabul Chick and possibly Wellington have levelled at your posts may reflect at least a hazy awareness of this fundamental aspect of “Christian militancy”.

    I’ve also observed elsewhere that even Buddhism can be a violent and supremacist religion–as the suppression of Roman Catholics by the early Tokugawa Shogunate, the Boxers in China, and the current politics of Sri Lanka and Burma have shown.

    But, to end, a major burden of this blog seems to be (correct me if I’m wrong, Robert) that aggressive, supremacist violence is bound up in the warp and woof of the Qur’an and Hadith; and hence an inescapable imperative in Islam in a way that it is not in other faiths (although I’d find supremacist violence imperative in romantic nationalism and Marxism as well).

  41. says

    God works in wondrous and mysterious ways.

    I found the hymn “Onward Christian Soldiers” posted by the bigot Ole Hartling, uplifting and refreshing.

    Yet your diatribe is most foul.

    I wonder, do you have a point O.H.?

    Or is it all rage against the “others” religion, while holding your own sacrosanct?

  42. says

    Excuse my error in the previous post: Not “faced,” but the announcer said the student said he was “facing” death threats. If the student said this, why don’t we have audio/video or a quote of it?

    “Facing” is an odd choice of words. It seems more normal to say “received death threats,” not “facing death threats.”

    I mean, heck, people are “facing” death threats, that is, facing the prospect of death threats, if they say anything in public deemed oppositional to Islam. But that’s not the same as the fact of having received them.

    A prospect of something happening is not the same as the fact of something that has happened.

    It’s certainly plausible that he might have received, or might yet receive, death threats over this incident. My point is simply that we don’t have any evidence, to my knowledge, to support (a) the Fox News announcer’s claim that the student said he received death threats, or (b) evidence of the threats themselves. I’ve checked numerous more recent articles on this incident that don’t mention death threats at all. This all seems odd if he really did receive threats.

  43. says

    I appreciate your effort to explain things in a social framework:

    “Ole, your reply to me was quite pertinent, especially since you mention the heyday of the Klan during the 1920’s.” Those were years of major cultural ferment and change, including the dawning of an era in which the American Protestant churches with an educated clergy succumbed to theological liberalism (which, I suspect, was a disease to which the genteel were probably more prone than the unwashed masses).”

    I think the main explanation when it comes to the excesses and crimes committed by the church or christian groups is irrational FEAR. Fear is at the root of all expressions of hatred. Fear can be more or less rational and therefore also justified. Urban II’s fear that Islam would conquer all christian lands with its ongoing jihad was rationally justified in my view. His problem was that war – any type of violent war – cannot be justified by the preachings of Jesus Christ.

    Simply understood (from outside the faith) Christianity is not about saving the world but the soul humanity. Christianity is not an ideology trying to make a perfect and just world, and its ethical obligations are directed at the individual. He should try to fulfill the obligations on his own behalf, not on the behalf of others or the society. To make Christians understand that Christianity is not a social norm was one of the main objectives undertaken by the Danish Christian philosopher Søren Kierkegaard. His other objective was to disprove Hegels abstractions about necessary historical laws, that inspired Karl Marx so much.

    You made a reference to Augustine’s just war theory in a comment. But how did Augustine justify war?

    Augustine did not necessarily claim the right to self-defense, as he argued that it was never permissible to kill over one’s life or property. This thinking was derived from concepts of Christian charity, in which one had the obligation to turn the other cheek. Yet this rule did not apply to one’s moral obligation to provide for the defense of others, such as the weak, infants, children, etc.. Augustine argued that Christian rulers had such an obligation to make peace for the protection of his subjects even if the only way to eliminate such a threat was through force of arms. The thirteenth-century theologian St. Thomas Aquinas later adopted Augustine’s writings on Just War for his development of the concept in which he defined three necessary conditions for war including, legitimate authority, just cause, and right intention.

    So the question is did the Church (Vatican and pope) have legitimate authority to wage war or did the secular christian rulers have that authority?

    Martin Luther’s answer is clear: Only the secular rulers have the authority, actually an obligation to make war to protect the land, people and property against an invading and murderous army (the Turks). Consequently Luther rejected and condemned the idea of new Crusades proposed by Catholics in his days when the Turks came close to conquering Vienna (in 1529).

    Also here Luther used his teaching of the two regiments and separated the task of the church from those of the secular authorities. To Luther a Crusade is an insult to the name of Christ and a perverse mixture of the tasks of the church and the secular authorities.

    The church or the congregation cannot constitute an army who with weapons in hand should fight against the enemies of Christ, the Muslims. Because the church only and solely become church by preaching the gospel to faith, and how many or how few belong to the true believers must necessarily be hidden from the eyes of man. A “christian” army who fights under the banner of Christ commits a greater sin than any Turk.

    “Any decent secular ruler”, said Luther, “has an obligation to protect the land and its people against a murderous and robbing attacker. And everyone who are called upon can in obedience to his post and in good conscience make war against the Turk under the banner of the emperor following his command.”

    In my view there is a logical error (or lack of clarity) in both the golden rule and what I see as its religious variant – the obligation to love your fellow man as yourself. The just war theory tries partly to correct this error. Neither of the two (universal) norms specify the obligations towards one self and gives no reason for the obligations towards others. As the philosopher Kant argued.

    This critique points out that you cannot just base your actions upon your own wishes, if you want to act morally correct. You cannot excuse your actions towards others by pointing out, that you would accept the same treatment if the roles were reversed. A consistent norm must necessarily specify how we should act independently of our wishes, solely qua person; in other words, distinguish between wishes and needs independent of wishes.

    Augustin is aware of this problem and tries to get around it in a creative way. He accept the (false) premise that we have no obligations toward ourselves – we should not use violence even to defend our own lives. He is forced outside the rule and claim that we have a moral obligation to provide for the defense of others, such as the weak, infants, children, etc.

    Augustin is right, but he cannot justify that we have the right to use violence to save the life of others from the two rules or the preachings and actions of Jesus Christ. However, if God is Logos and Agape and we are created in his image you could say that we should not read the gospels literal but use our own reasons to understand the deeper meaning or truth of the Scripture. That is what Augustin and Aquinas did – you may call it theology or philosophy – and tried to correct some inconsistencies.

    The elementary mistake in the two moral rules is that you should be able to live by the obligations, and continuously follow them. Otherwise they undermine themselves. What the rule demands of the individual must be consistent with his continued existence. He must be able to LIVE in accordance with the obligation. Nobody can literally follow the two basic rules in the Christian ethics and far less the radicalization of the traditional Jewish laws in the Preach on the Mount and expect to stay alive for very long.

    If you strictly follow in the footsteps of Jesus Christ you surely will become a martyr rather sooner than later. So you can either be an imperfect Christian – a sinner – or a martyr. History showed that an overwhelming majority of those who called themselves Christians chose the former. It also showed that when the Christians got political power in the Roman empire it degenerated and misused its power. After it lost political power at the Reformation and later in the wake of the Enlightenment with the creation of secular democracies, it reverted more to its pacifistic roots and became what is was in its first three centuries: A spiritual belief which should be taught behind the backs of any power and in opposition to all powers. That is what Christian conscience mean.

    At least that is how how I see it, trying in this comment to concentrate on the essentials, and leaving out a lot of other relevant things. That must wait for later if you care to comment.

  44. says

    Ole:

    I think the main explanation when it comes to the excesses and crimes committed by the church or christian groups is irrational FEAR. Fear is at the root of all expressions of hatred.
    *******************
    I’m not so sure that fear is necessarily irrational, especially when people are out to get you. Further, it is not the only cause for hatred. I believe that much of the material on this blog has exposed that some faiths (including Marxism) justify hatred and exploit it as a means of predation.

    As for self-defense in Christianity, it’s a long-standing right in Common Law, which itself is a product of a believing age. And, as a Christian, I do not pit Jesus against the rest of Scripture. Nor, I think, would Augustine or Luther.

  45. says

    Good grief, what a lot of off-topic verbiage.

    And now, I suppose I’ll be guilty of continuing these off-topic comments myself.

    Yes, it is true that the Klan did use “Onward Christian Soldiers” on at least one occasion.

    But it was hardly written by Sabine Baring-Gould”an English writer, scholar, and antiquarian”as an anthem for that repulsive group.

    Its adoption by the Salvation Army and such figures as Winston Churchill and Dwight D. Eisenhower was far more in keeping with its spirit.

    Incidentally, it was also widely used *by the civil rights movement*”which hardly marks it as some sort of racist anthem.

    More:

    The problem is that you can always find justification for hatred and violence in the Old Testament. Pope Urban II did, Martin Luther did when he wrote “The Jews and their lies”, republished exactly 400 years later by the Nazis who celebrated Luther’s birthday by burning the synagogs on Crystal Night, thus following the first advise given by Luther.
    …………………………….

    I am *no* fan of Luther’s well known antisemitism that he evinced later in life”and it is well documented that the Nazis frequently cited this work in antisemitic propaganda.

    But the immediate rationalization for the horrors of Kristallnacht was the assassination of German diplomat Ernst vom Rath by a Polish Jew living in France, Herschel Grynszpan. Grynszpan acted in revenge over the Nazis brutal expulsion of Polish Jews, including some of Grynszpan’s relatives. The sad irony was that Vom Rath was quite critical of many Nazi policies”especially the terrible treatment of the Jews.

    Given that Luther wrote “The Jews and their lies” in 1543, it seems pretty unlikely that Kristallnacht”which atrocity occurred in 1938″was a direct response to the 400-year-anniversary of that writing.

  46. says

    “Given that Luther wrote “The Jews and their lies” in 1543, it seems pretty unlikely that Kristallnacht”which atrocity occurred in 1938″was a direct response to the 400-year-anniversary of that writing.”

    It was a coincidence that Kristallnacht happened on Luthers birthday. But it was no coincidence that Luther’s infamous book became a blueprint for the Nazis:

    As early as 1923 Hitler praised Luther’s judeophobia:

    “Luther war ein großer Mann, ein Riese. Mit einem Ruck durchbrach er die Dämmerung; sah den Juden, wie wir ihn erst heute zu sehen beginnen.”

    Shortly after the Kristallnacht, Bishop Martin Sasse, a leading Protestant churchman, published a compendium of Martin Luther’s writings. Sasse “applauded the burning of the synagogues” and the coincidence of the day, writing in the introduction, “On November 10, 1938, on Luther’s birthday, the synagogues are burning in Germany.” The German people, he urged, ought to heed these words “of the greatest anti-Semite of his time, the warner of his people against the Jews.”

    Actually Luther gave up his initial efforts to convert the Jews and instead continued the long Christian tradition of judeophobia which dates back to the early days of the church. He did not propose anything harsher that had not been proposed and carried out before by the Church Fathers, popes, Saints or catholic rulers.

    The Protestant reformation was started by Martin Luther in 1517. One of the principles of the Protestant Church was to bring Christianity back to its Jewish sources rather than the Hellenistic interpretation. Initially many Protestants approached Judaism, expecting Jews to finally accept the new faith when it was lovingly presented and stressing its Jewish components. But again, when this expectation proved false, the reaction was Judeophobic. Luther’s last book was “On the Jews and Their Lies” (1543) in which he called the Jews the anti-Christ. “It is harder to convert them than Satan himself.”

    Luther called for the violent expulsion of Jews from all Germany. He addressed European noblemen: “Let me give you my honest advice. First, their synagogues should be set on fire, and whatever does not burn up should be covered or spread over with dirt… And this ought to be done for the honor of God and of Christianity in order that God may see that we are Christians, and that we have not willingly tolerated or approved of such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of His Son and His Christians… Secondly, their homes should likewise be broken down and destroyed. For they perpetrate the same things that they do in their synagogues. For this reason they ought to be put under one roof or in a stable… Thirdly, they should be deprived of their prayerbooks and Talmuds in which such idolatry, lies, cursing, and blasphemy are taught. Fourthly, their rabbis must be forbidden under threat of death to teach any more… God’s rage is so great against them that they only become worse and worse… To sum up, dear princes and nobles who have Jews in your domains, if this advice of mine does not suit you, then find a better one so that you and we may all be free of this insufferable devilish burden – the Jews.”

    This was the theologian and founder of the new version of Christianity hit by a patholocigal fear and hatred of Jews who demonstrated his inability to understand the basic moral obligation to love your fellow man as yourself. One of the most brutal Nazi Judeophobes, Julius Streicher, argued in his defense at the Nuremberg trials that he had merely repeated what Luther had said about the Jews.

    Essentially the development of Judeophobic mythology passed through three stages: Antiquity (Jews are lepers and ass-worshipers, misogynists and lazy), Early Middle Ages (the Jewish people is deicidal and, through its suffering, a witness of Christian truth), and Late Middle Ages (Jews drink Christian blood, poison wells, and are partners with Satan). The main difference between pagan and Christian myths is that the former were mainly cultural, whereas the latter were mostly theological: “God hates them” became a common belief.

    The irrationel ability of man to believe what he wants to believe and follow his animalistic instincs may corrupt anything, a poem, a hymn, Christian ethics, and turn it ugly.

    “When the past no longer illuminates the future, the spirit walks in darkness.” (Alexis de Tocqueville).

  47. says

    Goodness, Lemonlime, I am no Mennonite or Quaker who believes that “no Christian may be a magistrate; no magistrate is a Christian”. And, as stated before, I accept the Just War theory. Further, having served as an American diplomat, I have some understanding of what issues of war and peace entail.

  48. says

    “1) the Crusades as a whole was a series of defensive battles against an evil, brutal occupying force that had brutally invaded then proceeded to make life hell for centuries for the Christian inhabitants of a region who had, prior to those hellish invasions, become part of the culture of the region (indeed, the entire Middle East, Mesopotamian, and North Africa) for centuries.”

    Thank you for providing these important facts, LemonLine. I have always supported the Crusades and without apology, too (and Ole Heartless can shriek his head off, for all I care). The Crusades was the right response; and my only question is, why did they wait so long?

  49. says

    Kepha,

    “those of us who accept the Just War theory can now “understand” the Crusades and Reconquista, even if we are uncomfortable with their legacies”

    Just wondered why you have to bristle with quote marks at “understanding” the Crusades, and why you are “uncomfortable with their legacies” — or, more importantly, what exactly that means and what practical application that might have today; or is it merely an abstractly archaic sentiment with no actual effect on us today?

  50. says

    You’re welcome, champ. That’s a good question about the tardy response time for the Crusades. I don’t know as much as I should about that time period (one of these days I’ll get around to reading Gibbon), but I think it’s safe to say it had to do with a combination of a long drawn-out process of deterioration of the Roman Empire, which began long before the Muslim explosion out of the desert, and then was further exacerbated by that; plus the fact that there was, unfortunately, a lot of internal conflicts going on throughout the Ecumene.

    While initially the Muslim outburst tended to weaken the nascent West and cause it to hunker down in on itself, over a long time (many centuries), this eventually recoiled paradoxically and had the opposite effect, galvanizing the West to strengthen more and more with each passing century, until they were able to reconquer Spain by the 15th century, and within a couple more centuries after that, colonize the entire world, and increasingly cramp the style of the entire Muslim world, from the Pacific to the Atlantic — among many other things, effectively turning the formerly great and fearsome Ottoman Empire by the 19th century into a dried-up old prune that, by the 20th century, just fell off like a sapless stone.

    In the 20th century,

    1) Had Muslims not discovered oil;

    2) Had the West not stupidly dissolved and abandoned its Colonialist management of the Third World;

    and

    3) Had the West not invited millions of Muslims unprecedentedly into the West;

    we wouldn’t be in the dire straits we’re in now, in this 21st century.