Happy Valentine's Day. "Muslim marriage counsellor labelled ‘satan’ for sex comments," from 7 Days, February 14 (thanks to Twostellas):
A UAE-based marriage counsellor faced a storm of criticism last night after she said married Muslim women should enjoy sex with their husbands.Ahead of Valentine’s Day, today, Emirati Wedad Lootah told Muslim women they should not be afraid of enjoying intercourse and that there was a misconception that Islam forbids married women from enjoying lovemaking.
It sparked hundreds of online comments, some calling her a “Satan” while others said she was insulting Muslims. The online attacks came after she told the AFP news agency that her 11 years as a marriage counsellor in the Dubai courts had taught her that lack of sexual fulfillment was the main source of conflict in UAE marriages.
“Don’t shy away from it, don’t feel ashamed by it – enjoy it, you’re supposed to,” she said, adding that she is trying to break misconceptions that sex in Islam is only about conceiving children. “It’s also about having fun,” she said.
Mohamad from Saudi Arabia branded her “insane” on Yahoo Arabia, while some men took to cyberspace to accuse her of working for Satan....
Here is what Lootah said: "Islamic love guru urges women to enjoy sex," from Agence France Presse (dated February 14, but posted on Yahoo several days earlier):
Emirati love guru Widad Lootah is not your typical marriage counsellor. She is an ultra-conservative Muslim who wears the full veil and talks a lot about sex, often quoting the Muslim holy book the Koran.On Valentine's day, Lootah is calling on Muslim and Arab women everywhere to "embrace love and love making."
"Don't shy away from it, don't feel ashamed by it. Enjoy it, you're supposed to," she said, adding that she is trying to break common misconceptions that sex in Islam is only about conceiving children.
"It's also about having fun," she said.
Dressed in a shroud of black revealing only her eyes - a choice, she says, that allows her to emulate the Muslim prophet's wives - Lootah was frank and explicit about the importance Islam places on a healthy sex life.
"It's at the core" of a happy marriage, she said.
Lootah noted that her 11 years as a marriage counsellor at the Dubai courthouse made her realise that "what happens (or doesn't happen) in bed" is the main source of marital problems in the United Arab Emirates.
Public, and in many cases private, discussions about sex are still taboo in much of the conservative Muslim world, a reality she says contradicts Islam's approach to the subject.
There are only two simple rules for sex in Islam: you must be married "and anal sex is strictly forbidden," Lootah said.
"Everything else, including all sexually intimate acts below the belly button, is allowed. Feel each other, touch each other, kiss each other all over ... it's OK."
The problem is, "there is so much shame and disgrace" associated with the enjoyment of sex in the Arab world.
Lootah is an adamant believer in bringing the discussion of sex out into the open, although at times doing so has proven it can be a risky business.
In 2009, she published the much-debated Muslim sex guide Top Secret: Sexual Guidance for Married Couples.
Her book, and her comments in interviews on the subject, initially triggered a slew of insults, condemnation and even threats against her life.
"They called me all sorts of things: crazy, vile, immoral, criminal," she said.
"Some even called me a traitor and spy for Israel and America."
It must be hell to live in such a culture.
So much of looking at Islam in the middle east and it's rigid archaic locked in stone ideology is like looking back through a time machine.
The bizarre thing is that the "marriage counselor" wears a niqab: http://j.mp/wiHto7
She is in the wrong religion. Plus she is a 50/50. Wears the halloween costume yet tries to break out of the custom of being screwed up sexually which is the Islamic norm I guess. She needs to sort out her priorities.
islam is tailor made for men only! as long as the men can ejaculate that is all that matters!!
"as the men can ejaculate that is all that matters!!"
Some of them can't even do that without the help of some "celestial viagra"!
http://crossmuslims.blogspot.com/2011/01/prophetess-of-islam.html
salah: i got to tell you a story I read NY times about two years ago. a couple of cia agents went to an elderly afghan warlord for help. they gave him a viagra and they returned the next day. they said the guy had such a smile on his face!! one viagra=info!!!
I think it can be quite accurately said that Islam is so screwed up.
Enjoying sex with one's husband : haraam
Thighing a 9-year old child : halaal
A UAE-based marriage counsellor faced a storm of criticism last night after she said married Muslim women should enjoy sex with their husbands.
Ahead of Valentine’s Day, today, Emirati Wedad Lootah told Muslim women they should not be afraid of enjoying intercourse and that there was a misconception that Islam forbids married women from enjoying lovemaking.
..............................
Yet another one of those "misconceptions" about Islam...and yet, one pious Muslims are willing to issue death threats over.
More:
"Some even called me a traitor and spy for Israel and America."
..............................
I wondered how long it would take for her to be accused of working as an agent for the "Great Satan" or for being "a Jew"—not long at all, apparently...
Of course, it would have even worse for her is she had suggested that married Muslim women deserved to be loved...
"There is no fun in Islam."
But wouldn't that mean that men shouldn't get any pleasure from sex, either?
The good Moslem wife just closes her eyes and thinks of Islam.
no it does not. Islam is tailor made for men!! they can whatever they want.
M
That's a funny story, but you've got to feel sorry for the guy's wives!
(or his little boy sex slaves. It was, after all, Afghanistan).
Mohammed from Yahoo Arabia is right, of course she's insane, she's trying to sugarcoat Islam...while wearing a niqab and being attacked by her own comrades!. Oh, the irony.
Sex manuals aren't new to islam, which had Kama Sutra followers. One author - abu Nuwas, a gay arab-persian - claimed "women are the mounts of devils." But these are variants - if not deviant - because salafi emulators of the original sahaba, view sex in marriage as a male right and females as semen receptacles. If a woman is barren, they are talaqed as "cursed by allah." Many muz countries practise genital mutilation so that women don't enjoy sex with their slave master. A female has rights slightly beyond a dog, under islam.
"Anal sex is strictly forbidden" - except when it's performed on little boys.
All non-muslim women everywhere should thank their higher power, or fate, or whatever - that they were not born into the death cult.
"Ahead of Valentine’s Day, today, Emirati Wedad Lootah told Muslim women they should not be afraid of enjoying intercourse and that there was a misconception that Islam forbids married women from enjoying lovemaking."
Lootah is right. But her critics obviously don't know their own religion and its positive attitude towards sexual enjoyment for its own sake.
If they had read "THE PERFUMED GARDEN" by Sheikh Nefzaoui who instructs men in the art of love, and especially how to give the woman an orgasm, they would not claim that the sexual gratification is only for men in Islam.
Erotic literature of this specific nature were banned in Christian countries and considered pornography until just a few decades ago. Henry Millers erotic works were banned from publication in the US. In 1961 the publication of Miller's Tropic of Cancer in the United States led to a series of obscenity trials that tested American laws on pornography.
The U.S. Supreme Court, in Grove Press, Inc., v. Gerstein, citing Jacobellis v. Ohio (which was decided the same day in 1964), overruled the state court findings of obscenity and declared the book a work of literature; it was one of the notable events in what has come to be known as the sexual revolution.
In comparison the "sexual revolution" had already taken place in Islam at the time Christians were burning witches on the stake for having intercourse with the Devil. Written in the 16th Century, The Perfumed Garden is one of the oldest texts on the subject of erotica. It provides a fascinating look into the sexual customs and behavior of Arabia in the Middle Ages, much like the Kama Sutra reflects ancient Hindu culture.
See for yourself:
" ... O you men, one and all, who are soliciting the love of woman and her affection, and who wish that sentiment in her heart to be of an enduring nature, toy with her previous to coition; prepare her for enjoyment, and neglect nothing to attain that end. Explore her with the greater assiduity, and, entirely occupied with her, let nothing else engage your thoughts. Do not let the moment propitious for pleasure pass away; that moment will be when you see her eyes humid, half open. Then go to work, but, remember, not till your kisses and toyings have taken effect.
After you have got the woman into a proper state of excitement, O men! put your member into her, and, if you then observe the proper movements, she will experience a pleasure which will satisfy all her desires.
Lie on her breast, rain kisses on her cheeks, and let not your member quit her vagina. Push for the mouth of her womb. This will crown your labour.
If, by God's favour, you have found this delight, take good care not to withdraw your member, but let it remain there, and imbibe an endless pleasure! Listen to the sighs and heavy breathing of the woman. They witness the violence of the bliss you have given her.
And after the enjoyment is over, and your amorous struggle has come to an end, be careful not to get up at once, but withdraw your member cautiously. Remain close to the woman, and lie down on the right side of the bed that witnessed your enjoyment. You will find this pleasant, and you will not be like a fellow who mounts the woman after the fashion of a mule, without any regard to refinement, and who, after the emission, hastens to get his member out and to rise. Avoid such manners, for they rob the woman of all her lasting delight.
In short, the true lover of coition will not fail to observe all that I have recommended; for, from the observance of my recommendations will result the pleasure of the woman, and these rules comprise everything essential in that respect.
God has made everything for the best!"
This classical Islamic work in the art of love is still very popular in the Middle East.
The complete text is available on the internet:
http://www.globusz.com/ebooks/PerfumedGarden/index.htm
God created men and women to BOTH enjoy sex and achieve orgasm, so of course this marriage counselor is right. What a shame that this counselor must endure these outrageous slights for telling the truth about sex just because it goes against centuries of backward thinking and lies within islam that women should not enjoy it. Lootah is very courageous for taking a stand against these silly lies, and I hope that she remains strong by continuing to tell the truth. Good for her!
I have no argument, champ, with your assessment, indeed I endorse it, but I can only wish that this Lootah individual would go the full nine yards and realize that the fundamental problem is Islam itself. It's interesting and instructive how some Muslims correctly identify problems in the Islamic mental architecture but still can't bring themselves to the overall comprehension that the root problem is Mo's creed in its entirety.
In short, some Muslims have tactical understanding of Islam's pathologies but they miss the larger strategic picture. What a shame. Hope you're during well, champ, on this Valentine's Day, a mortal threat, it seems, to Muslim clerics aplenty. Sometimes I'm not quite sure if Islam is more wicked than silly or the other way around. Reasonable minds, I suppose, can differ here.
Excellent point, Wellington, and perhaps Lootah will one day become the next Wafa Sultan and leave islam. Maybe she's taking baby steps in that direction? I certainly hope so. And yes, I'm doing well, thank you ..and I want to wish you and yours the very best today and always, and Happy Valentine's Day! ..which reminds me, I need to start getting ready for a fun date with my husband who's taking me to dinner tonight! Yeah we're going to have Fun! ..gosh muhammad must be turning over in his grave right now. Oh well, never mind to that pathetic person, right? Yeah thinking too much about him will spoil my appetite for my favorite Thai dish - yum! Have a great day, bye for now! :)
Whatever the pathologies in Islam, and they are many and severe, one thing its creaters got right was not to make Eros the enemy of God, as the Christians did.
According to traditional Catholic dogma sex solely for pleasure is not accepted, only reproduction in an indissoluble marriage made sex acceptable as a necessary evil. That´s why any form of anti-conception and abortion is prohibited except in case of miscarriage to save the life of a pregnant women.
Catholic theology teaches that a validly-contracted marriage is accompanied by divine ratification, creating a virtually indissoluble union until the couple consummate, after which the marriage is completely indissoluble.
In Islam sexuality and sexual pleasure is viewed in a much more positive way. Love is a way to imitate Gods work of creation and the Qur'an is filled with verses describing the creation of life through the physical act of love. In Islam sexuality has a holy mission: to create life and by fulfilling sexuality man contributes to Gods work of creation.
Contrary to the Christian view Islam allows the sexual pleasure for its own sake and Islam does not make body and soul into two irreconcilable elements. Abortion is allowed on certain conditions and Islam does not prohibit use of anti-conception. The temporary muta-marriage is a logical consequence of this positive view on sexuality. It involves a contract between a man, who may or may not be married, and an unmarried woman - a contract in which the duration of marriage and the dowry are specified in advance. Both sides agree by mutual consent to the length of the marriage, which can range from an hour to 99 years.
There is no divorce; the muta contract simply expires with the lapse of its duration. Although witnesses are not required, the marriage has to be registered in court (In Iran). Unlike in an ordinary, "permanent" marriage a temporary wife cannot claim maintenance. But a temporary husband cannot disown the children born from a muta-marriage. Children of temporary marriages are considered legitimate, and are entitled to equal status in inheritance and other rights with their half-siblings born of permanent marriages.
So muta-marriage is not just legalized prostitution, it is a pragmatic (although male chauvinistic) solution to a general problem involved in male sexuality in all societies.
In my opinion one of the worst mistakes made by Christians was to make religion and Eros enemies of each other. The misery, grief and pain this misconception has caused people through the ages should be recognized and rectified.
One way of doing this is celebrating Valentine's Day, although the Catholic Church seems embarased by the romantic or erotic elements associated with the 3 very old Christian martyrs called Valentine.
No romantic elements are present in the original early medieval biographies of either of these martyrs. By the time a Saint Valentine became linked to romance in the 14th century, distinctions between Valentine of Rome and Valentine of Terni were utterly lost.
Saint Valentine's head was preserved in the abbey of New Minster, Winchester and venerated. But there is no evidence that Saint Valentine was a popular saint before Chaucer's poems in 14th century, not even in the area of Winchester. Saint Valentine's celebration didn't differ from the celebrations of many other saints, and no church was ever dedicated to him.
In the 1969 revision of the Roman Catholic Calendar of Saints, the feast day of Saint Valentine on February 14 was removed from the General Roman Calendar and relegated to particular (local or even national) calendars for the following reason: "Though the memorial of Saint Valentine is ancient, it is left to particular calendars, since, apart from his name, nothing is known of Saint Valentine except that he was buried on the Via Flaminia on February 14."
miriam rove & ebonystone:
You can't really expect me to explain Khomeini's ravings.
Who knows what the heck that sick bastard was thinking ... if indeed he was thinking at all. I'm just quoting him.
"There are only two simple rules for sex in Islam: you must be married "and anal sex is strictly forbidden," Lootah said."
That's false. Muslim men are not only permitted to have sex with their wives, but also with their female captives and slaves (70:29-31, 23:5-7, 4:24, 33:50-52).
Sahih Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 122:
Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "If a woman spends the night deserting her husband's bed (does not sleep with him), then the angels send their curses on her till she comes back (to her husband)."
If the Muslim man wants to have sex, but the woman (wife or slave) does not, then she is sinning, the angels curse her, she is disobeying the husband, if she refuses without having a legitimate excuse. Not being "in the mood," or not enjoying it, are not considered legitimate excuses for not having sex when the man wants it. (Examples of "legitimate" excuses would be illness or the possibility physical harm).
So while Widad Lootah is partly correct, the fact that wives and slaves/servants are ultimately required to have sex whether they want to or not, shows that what she is saying is a misleading half-truth.
ImNoDhimmi wrote:
All non-muslim women everywhere should thank their higher power, or fate, or whatever - that they were not born into the death cult.
.................................
Believe me, I do, ImNoDhimmi.
A Happy Valentine's Day to all defenders of love and freedom!
Israeli singer Ofra Haza, of Yemeni Jewish background, singing part of the Song of Songs, Shir ha Shirim, from the Bible, in the original Hebrew.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnYV0WFpiCg&feature=related
Lyrics:
---
Simeni kachotam al libecha,
simeni kachotam al z'ro'echa,
Ki aza kamavet ahava,
Ki aza kamavet ahava,
kasha kish'ol kin'ah,
Rishafeha rishpei esh,
esh shalhevet Yah.
Mayim rabim yo yuchlu l'chabot et ha'ahava,
u'n'harot lo yish't'fuha,
Im yiten ish et kawl hon beito b'ahava,
boz yavuzu lo.
(Shir HaShirim 8:6,7)
Translation:
---
Place me as a seal upon your heart,
place me as a seal upon your arm,
For love is strong as death,
For love is strong as death,
Jealousy is difficult as the grave,
Its flames are flames of fire,
fire of the flame of God.
Many waters could not extinguish love,
and rivers could not rinse it away.
If a man were to give all the wealth of his house for love,
He would surely be despised."
Ole,
Briefly,
-I would point out that "Catholic dogma" does not equal "the Christians." I would also add that there is erotica in the Old Testament itself.
-Where I believe the Catholic Church (and some other religions, for similar reasons) could be criticized on this topic is for the unnatural and unnecessary vows of celibacy for priests and nuns.
-"The Perfumed Garden" does not represent all of Islam, nor does it have an authoritative status for Muslims.
Ole Hartling, above, represents Muslims as being oh-so enlightened about sex and Christians as being nasty mean-spirited prudes out to spoil everyone's fun.
Reality check no. 1.
A significant portion of the Sunni Mohammedan world - that which subscribes to the Shafiite school of Islamic law - holds it to be **obligatory** to slice out the clitoris of the female, usually along with much or all of her external genitalia (the inner and outer labia, for example), creating a wall of rock-hard scar tissue that renders urination and menstruation, let alone sex and childbirth, painful and difficult.
Not one of the three other schools of Sunni Sharia actually *condemns* or forbids this barbaric practice which severely curtails a woman's ability to enjoy vaginal intercourse; and indeed two of them speak favourably of it, without going so far as to declare it obligatory.
Reality check no 2:
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=7E8E98D9-E148-4F9C-BAFF-40E9E4974AEE
In The Red Zone
By Jamie Glazov
FrontPageMagazine.com | Thursday, December 09, 2004
"...What I learned from Nour—and what I discuss in much of In the Red Zone--is the psychic claustrophobia of Iraqi [that is, Iraqi Muslim - dda] society.
"Reputation and virginity are everything—should a woman lose the first, she is ostracized from “good” society; lose the second before marriage and she risks being murdered by her “shamed” family.
"On the street, in restaurants, taxi cabs, mosques, and public place, men (and women) stare at females, waiting—hoping—they will do something that will disgrace themselves and fuel invidious gossip. “The relationships between Iraqi men and women are sadomasochistic,” Nour told me. From what I saw, she is right."
What this author failed to see, is that there is good reason to believe that what he saw in rapidly sharia-ising Iraq, IS Islam, Islam, Islam.
What if the relationships between MUSLIM men and women are sadomasochistic?
More:
"Islam has devised perhaps the most effective way of wielding such psychic domination--by convincing women that it is their duty to God to accept a condition of social inferiority and, in many cases, virtual slavery.
"Malignant narcissists—or, the members of tyrannical death cults—are terrified of the feminine.
"The ecstasy of death mirrors the bliss of the womb, and the narcissistic warrior’s worst enemy is his secret desire to regress to infantile nonexistence. His moral rigidity, lack of imagination and obsession with physical and religious purity are attempts to suppress this Oedipal desire--think of Mohammad Atta’s burial instructions to wrap up his genitals and allow no women to approach his bier.
"The female spirit can dominate, fool or inspire men--many Iraqi women told me they wear hejab to protect men from their own weakness.
"The more repressive the man, the more he secretly fears the ability of the feminine to undermine his power...
The interviewer, Jamie Glazov, observed to the author - "You note in your book that at one point you were sitting at the Al-Hamra Hotel, where Western journalists hang out. Beside the swimming pool you heard two American women laughing and you said a “chill shot” went right through you. You then realized that you had not heard a woman laugh in Iraq, “not in a free and unguarded manner, at any rate.”
Reality check no 3.
From the Front Page symposium entitled, To Rape an Unveiled Woman.
http://archive.frontpagemag.com/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=5347
Raddatz, on Islam:
"In this context the primary form of human being is seen in the male that assumes the right and duty to assist Allah in conserving and expanding his "umma", meaning his community.
"Its biologistic "thinking" demands the "pure" man as the real human dominating the "impure" woman as a lower form, rather close to some animal-like existence.
"Therefore, sexuality cannot be sublimated and has to serve - aside from ramifications into homo-, paedo- and sodo-variants - a basic double function: fertilizing and punishing...
Pierre Rehov (after mentioning the tournantes, the vicious night-long gang rapes, by Muslims, of non-Muslim females in France)
"I interviewed Muslim women who justified wife beating because it is “educational.” These women were probably brutalized as little girls and are unable to know NOT to blame the unveiled woman victim.
"**Every Muslim male and female that I have interviewed has experienced being beaten as a child and have witnessed the beating of their mother.** {my emphasis - dda}.
And Pierre Radatz:
"The personal literary reports and the official UN analyses on Islamic family dynamics concur in a somewhat disquieting aspect.
"They confirm not only the tendency to incest but also an even stronger attitude towards anal sexuality, meaning an unusually high percentage of males preferring anal intercourse to vaginal, especially in the framework of "normal" marital life...".
"The male principle culminates in itself, thereby forced to destruct instead of construct, to express itself not in terms of products but in "disducts" - like feces - and to ultimately drift from vagina to anus.
"There is no "culture" in the world where more married people practice anal intercourse than in Islam"...
Funny that Ms Lootah should insist so vehemently that anal intercourse is forbidden, when the reality in dar al Islam is if anything the other way around - anal intercourse (not only among homosexual men, but among hetero couples) is very close to the *norm*...
Eussner:
"The message given to the Muslim women in Muslim and in Western countries is: you don't ask for nothing, neither for equal treatment nor for liberty, otherwise you will be punished, i.e. beaten and raped."
Rehov again: "I would make it simple by saying that genuine frustration, combined with a high contempt toward women, as a result of a culture in which women are classified way under men, leads to an instinctive - animal type - behavior, not censored nor punished by common cultural values.
"Inside the Palestinian territories, I collected a lot of different stories involving raping of an innocent girl who later on was slaughtered by her own father or cousin, because she had lost her virginity...".
In dar al Islam, every girl-child or woman knows that, at any moment, without her necessarily having done ANYTHING at all, one or more of the men around her (her husband, or father, or brother/s, or male cousins, or uncle, or whoever) sometimes egged on by women who have taken a scunner at her out of jealousy or spite - will decide that they are going to KILL her. No matter how meekly submissive she is, no matter how heavily veiled she is, no matter how scrupulously she remains inside the house...if the psychopathic mindset programmed into the men around her gets triggered, she is dead meat. Just like that. She gets her throat slit by her own husband or father or brother or uncle - with all the family approving and colluding - and she gets thrown out like garbage, or buried in a shallow grave somewhere, and they all pretend she never existed.
All the erotic fantasies of the 'perfumed garden' turn to dust and ashes in the light of the ugly reality that the male actor in those fantasies possesses, in the eyes of his family, his society and his cult, the right to beat the sh*t out of his wife on the basis of the merest suspicion that she might perhaps prove 'rebellious'...and that he also possesses the right to KILL her, and that if he decides he wants to kill her, all he has to do is *claim* that she was committing 'zina' and nobody will bother asking any questions, they'll assume she deserved it.
More on the realities of sexual practice in dar al Islam.
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.aspx?GUID=d51b2383-01a0-4896-b174-19f115ec0942
Boys of the Taliban
By Jamie Glazov FrontPageMagazine.com | 1/1/2007
"There is a basic and common sense empirical human reality: wherever humans construct and perpetuate an environment in which females and their sexuality are demonized and are pushed into invisibility,
"homosexual behaviour among men and the sexual abuse of young boys by older men always increases.
"Islamic-Arab culture serves as a perfect example of this paradigm, seeing that gender apartheid, fear of female sexuality and a vicious misogyny are the structures on which the whole society functions...
'John Racy, a psychiatrist with much experience in Arab societies, has noted that homosexuality is “extremely common” in many parts of the Arab world.
'Indeed, even though homosexuality is officially despised in this culture and strictly prohibited and punishable by imprisonment, incarceration and/or death, having sex with boys or effeminate men is actually a social norm.
'Males serve as available substitutes for unavailable women.
'The key is this: the male who does the penetrating is not considered to be homosexual or emasculated any more than if he were to have sex with his wife, while the male who is penetrated is emasculated.
'The boy, however, is not considered to be emasculated since he is not yet considered to be a man.
'A man who has sex with boys is simply doing what many men (especially unmarried ones) do.
'And this reality is connected to the fact that, as scholar Bruce Dunne has demonstrated, **sex in Islamic-Arab societies is not about mutuality between partners, but about the adult male's achievement of pleasure through violent domination** {my emphasis - dda}.
'Amnesty International has also reported that Afghan warlords routinely sexually victimize young boys and film the orgies.
(The sexual abuse of young girls in this environment is also obviously widespread)....".
'In the dysfunctional and morbid paradigms of this culture, the idea of love is, obviously, completely absent from men's understanding of sexuality.
'Like the essence of Arab masculinity, it is reduced to a form of prison sex: hurting others with violence.
'A gigantic rupture inevitably develops between men and women, where no harmony, affection or equality is allowed to exist..".
In the Notes, the author refers to the (often incestuous, as in the case of 'Hannah Shah', 'The imam's Daughter') sexual abuse of young girls in dar al Islam:
"Author Nawal El Saadawi, gives an account of the horrifying and widespread sexual abuse of young girls in the Muslim-Arab world, a crime for which the perpetrators are exonerated. - Sadawwi, The Hidden Face of Eve: Women in the Arab World, pp.12-24.
'...While it is obvious that this abuse, as with the abuse of young boys, is connected to the unavailability of women for men in the culture at large, Chesler notes that the widespread sexual abuse of female children in the Muslim world “is one of the main ways of traumatizing and shaming girls into obedience [this is how Hannah Shah’s father set out to brutalise her into submission] and rendering them less capable of rebellion or resistance when they grow up.” (Chesler, The Death of Feminism, p.145) ".
END QUOTE.
It should be noted that the Pakistani Muslim imam father of 'Hannah Shah' not only explicitly forbade hIs little daughter to laugh out loud, but - when she tried to stop him beating her mother - 'punished' her for perceived insubordination not only by savage beatings but by regularly *raping* her - his own daughter! - from when she was *six* right up to when, in her mid-teens, she managed to escape.
Ole Hartling,
Reading your comments (which appear to be repasted from a previous comment), if I did not know any better, I would get the impression that Islam is like a perpetual summer of love type of religion. Islam is about a bunch of hippies making out on the White House lawn, right?
In reality, the Quran says this:
24:2 "(As for) the fornicatress and the fornicator, flog each of them, (giving) a hundred stripes, and let not pity for them detain you in the matter of obedience to Allah, if you believe in Allah and the last day, and let a party of believers witness their chastisement."
24:3 "The fornicator shall not marry any but a fornicatress or idolatress, and (as for) the fornicatress, none shall marry her but a fornicator or an idolater; and it is forbidden to the believers."
And this:
4:34 "Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great."
And this:
2:221. "Wed not idolatresses till they believe; for lo! a believing bondwoman is better than an idolatress though she please you; and give not your daughters in marriage to idolaters till they believe, for lo! a believing slave is better than an idolater though he please you. These invite unto the Fire, and Allah inviteth unto the Garden, and unto forgiveness by His grace, and expoundeth His revelations to mankind that haply they may remember."
See that? Obedience to Islam trumps what "pleases" Muslims in their choice of spouse; Islam trumps love. And as Islamic law elaborates, Muslim women are not allowed to marry non-Muslim men. A Muslim woman can have any man she wants--as long as he's Muslim and (see next) approved by the parents, and she doesn't mind competing with other wives and female slaves.
Secondly, it says "give not your daughters..."; i.e., the daughters themselves don't decide independently; the parents have a big say in the decision as guaranteed by the Quran. This is yet another factor that interferes with, or frustrates, a Muslim's attempt to be with the one he/she loves.
You wrote: "the Qur'an is filled with verses describing the creation of life through the physical act of love."
No it isn't. The Quran is "filled with" verses condemning the disbelievers and praising Allah. There are a few verses about procreation, and some about love between spouses, but not much. Here are a few (to be read in light of what I quoted above):
25:74 "And they who say: O our Lord! grant us in our wives and our offspring the joy of our eyes, and make us guides to those who guard (against evil)."
7:189 "It is He Who has created you from a single person (Adam), and (then) He has created from him his wife [Hawwa (Eve)], in order that he might enjoy the pleasure of living with her. When he had sexual relation with her, she became pregnant and she carried it about lightly. Then when it became heavy, they both invoked Allah, their Lord (saying): "If You give us a Salih (good in every aspect) child, we shall indeed be among the grateful.""
30:21 "And one of His signs is that He created mates for you from yourselves that you may find rest in them, and He put between you love and compassion; most surely there are signs in this for a people who reflect."
It certainly cannot be said that the Quran is "filled with" such verses.
It's a wonder there is any reproduction at all in Islam, the slave rags niqab & burqa put me right out of the mood they are so disgusting.
I find it rather offensive that women can "enjoy" sex in captivity, inequality and degradation called marriage. Sounds like masochism (not by choice) to me.
There are white-washers of Islam on this forum who want to make believe that Islam is far preferable for women than Catholicism....
Islam is a supremacist ideology of hate of non-Muslims, and promoter of apartheid (dhimmitude), misogyny, pedophilia, polygamy, and murder for Allahu akbar. Islam MUST be reformed to make it compatible with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Under sharia, the concept of human rights does not exist. Take example of the young Saudi who tweeted that "I will not pray for you (Mohamed)", which got him extradited from Malaysia and may get him beheaded for "blasphemy".
As for women under sharia, does ANYBODY think that a 6 year old Aisha had a choice of marrying the old geezer of 51 who had sex with her when she was only 9! Mohamed, who is taken as a role model of Islam was an illiterate pedophile polygamist and a murderer, responsible for gruesome murder (by beheading) of 900 Jews from Medina.
Islam itself with its Koranic suras and Hadith IS the ROOT CAUSE of terrorism around the world and crimes against humanity, incompatible with US or EC constitution and the universal Declaration of Human Rights.
DDA, you brought tears to me eyes with that post. I miss Ofra Haza - we lost her much too soon.
Have you noticed that the musical accompaniment in many of her songs is 'found percussion'? Musicians play on brass coffee trays, coffee pots, pans and so on. No strings, woodwinds or horns. This is traditional Yemeni Jewish music. It's all and only found percussion, because the crazy anti-life death-loving Yemeni muslims forbade all music except for their miserable call to prayer. But those corrupt, pleasure-seeking Jews would not give up song and music, continued to play music on found instruments, that they could hide from the raids of the committee-to-prevent-voce-and-promote-virtue.
Love and beauty is more powerful than hatred and death. Love and beauty will win in the end.
"Reading your comments (which appear to be repasted from a previous comment), if I did not know any better, I would get the impression that Islam is like a perpetual summer of love type of religion. Islam is about a bunch of hippies making out on the White House lawn, right?"
Wrong! If you actually read what I wrote on the subject you could not possibly arrive at that conclusion:
"There is nothing great in the Qur'an, the Sunnah of the Prophet, islamic philosophy, jurisprudence and sharia law. From an ethical point of view Islam must be condemned as much as Nazism is condemned and for almost the same reasons. No doubt about it. I even think that the moral condemnation of Islam by Catholic scholars does not go far enough:
“It is hardly necessary here to emphasize the fact that the ethics of Islam are far inferior to those of Judaism and even more inferior to those of the New Testament. … That in the ethics of Islam there is a great deal to admire and to approve, is beyond dispute; but of originality or superiority, there is none. What is really good in Mohammedan ethics is either commonplace or borrowed from some other religions, whereas what is characteristic is nearly always imperfect or wicked.“
(Quoted from main article about Islam in the 1910-Catholic Encyclopedia).
Actually there is NOT “a great deal to admire” in the ethics of Islam. However, what I am saying is that on a deeper ontological level in the sectarian milieu from which an Islamic salvation history was composed, Eros was not made an enemy of religion. Instead Islam united the belief with Eros and took it into the service of religion and made Eros divine.
That is in my opinion the main reason why there is a fundamental positive attitude towards the erotic life and sexual pleasure for its own sake in Islam. I am not saying that women are not repressed, put below men in all respects and exploited by polygamy and in the harem, even quashed socially by the many restrictions put upon her in Islamic tradition. Not at all.
I will not trouble you or the readers by repeating in all the obscene and terrifying details how the interpreters of Christianity from St. Paul and St. Augustine and onwards to modern times separated Eros from the realm of divinity and made sexuality the cardinal point in sin.
I will limit myself to say, that because of this true Christians became consequently those who lived an ascetic life, praised in the revelation of St. John as the 144.000 selected ones who had not defiled themselves with women. The culmination of this conflict being build up through the centuries was of course the classical witch-hunt created by fear of women, the devil and sex. You could call the attack on the female gender a kind a necessary catharsis to ease the tension and fear created over a very long period of time.
Al decent Christians are ashamed of how the Church misused its powers, its crimes against women and humanity, but lucily this resulted in deeper reflections about the relationship between Eros and Agape, and what went wrong:
“The modern protest against the disqualification of Eros in the tradition of the church and in various forms of moralism is not without justification. In Christian theology and teaching, Eros has seldom been treated as a normal and basic constituent element of human existence, but as a dangerous and evil force. This was, of course, due to the fact that in the ancient pagan world Eros had been the object of worship, and the nature of Eros-love was essentially different from the nature of agape-love, the love characteristic of the Christian life. Now in our day, Eros takes its revenge. Eros refuses to be ignored any longer. Some declare that the time has come to combine religion and eroticism, since "both have the same aim: They want to change man and seek his re-birth" (Walter Schubart).
Others are convinced that in order to serve Eros we must reject the God of the Bible. In this situation the message of the Christian Church is lacking in clarity. We know that Eros must not be allowed to be in sole charge of human relations. For Eros is finally self-seeking and so its victories are often Pyrrhic; the victor does not reap any fruit of his victory. Aldous Huxley, D. H. Lawrence's friend and himself an apostle of Eros, spoke a true word when he said of Lady Chatterley's Lover that it was "a beautiful, but inexpressibly sad book". The qualification applies even more to the literature by lesser writers of the pan-erotic school.
It is, then, clear that Eros needs Agape. The very best we have in our tradition concerning the relations between men and women is inspired by Agape, very especially the definite commitment of two human beings to each other as faithful partners for life. But we have not yet done our homework on the question of what can and must be the place of Eros in the lives of men and women who want to be instruments of the God-given Agape. The debate between Anders Nygren, Karl Barth, Denis de Rougemont and others on Eros and Agape has not led to any conclusion that we can use in our evangelistic approach. Until we have a clear word on this deeper issue, we cannot deal helpfully with the acute moral issues of our time. One wonders why this crucial issue has not been taken more seriously at the ecumenical level.
(Quoted from ”Evangelism Among Europe’s Neo-Pagans" by W. Visser't Hooft)."
If my opponents here had been interested in seeking the truth on the matter they would have inquired about the sources to my claims. In this respect they are just like the Muslim fundamentalist - believing to know the truth about sexuality in Christianity and Islam - so consequently I must be a heretic or an useful idiot for Islam who has been duped.
Actually I am not saying anything new or controversial. Let me quote af few relevant lines from Wikipedias main article on Islamic sexual jurisprudence:
"While prohibitions against extra-marital sexual relationships are strong, sex itself is not a taboo subject. Permissible sexual relationships are described in Islamic sources as great wells of love and closeness for the couple involved. ... To varying degrees Islamic law explicitly states that both men and women are entitled to sexual gratification in marriage; the failure or inability to provide this may be cited as grounds for divorce initiated by either the wife or husband.
Throughout the history of Islamic exegetical traditions, philosophies, and law, much has been written to encourage, often in quite frank and explicit terms, Muslims to cultivate between themselves in their marriages both sexual passion and tenderness. "Your women are a tilth for you (to cultivate) so go to your tilth as ye will, and send (good deeds) before you for your souls, and fear Allah, and know that ye will (one day) meet Him. Give glad tidings to believers, (O Muhammad)" Qur'an 2:223 ...
(Hadith): In the sexual act of each of you there is a sadaqah (charity or gift)." The Companions replied: "O Messenger of God! When one of us fulfils his sexual desire, will he be given a reward for that?" And he said, "Do you not think that were he to act upon it unlawfully, he would be sinning? Likewise, if he acts upon it lawfully he will be rewarded.
For further study I recommend reading: "Women in the Qur'an, Traditions, and Interpretation" (1996) by the Christian scholar Barbara Freyer Stowasser.
In the review Sumaiya Hamdani, Ph.D. University of North Carolina says:
Stowasser's book on women in the Qur'an, and the interpretation of Quranic women in subsequent Islamic tradition and literature, is one of the most outstanding works to have been published on the popular subject of women in Islam. Unlike most current work on the subject, Stowasser's book is neither an attempt to prove anything about, nor to apologize for, the status of Muslim women. Rather, she provides an insightful analysis of female representation in the preeminent foundational texts of Islam, and she charts its interpretation from the medival to the modern period. While other works on women in Islam have had recoursc to the Qur'an for evidence on various aspects of women's roles in Islamic society, or as a source of binding prescriptions, Stowasser focuses on the imagery or representation of women in the qur'an, and how that representation has historically been understood.
That the Qur'an is primarily an ideological text has been argued before. Stowasser also argues that the Qur'an is primarily an ideological narrative, which, as she shows, presents women, as well as men, not as distinct individuals but as uniform models of either obedience or disobedience to God. In focusing her analysis on the Quranic text itself, she follows Geertz, in approaching the Qur'an as a "symbolic text". ..."
Link to the book:
http://www.islamicbulletin.com/free_downloads/women/women_in_the_quran.pdf
Well, if Muslim women expected to enjoy sex. then they would be disappointed when their husbands had no consideration for their feelings or fulfillment or even health and safety. That is not what Mohammad envisioned when he wrote that women are deficient in intellect and that they are like fields their husbands can plow as the husbands see fit and that husbands can and should abuse and beat their wives if they merely fear disobedience and that husbands shall not be questioned as to why they beat up their wives (it is all in the Qur'an and Sunna for anyone to see). If the Muslim women expected better and were disappointed, then the Muslim men might be made to feel a slight twinge of guilt and responsibility for their abuse of women, and THAT would be un-Islamic.
Ole Hartling wrote:
...Eros was not made an enemy of religion. Instead Islam united the belief with Eros and took it into the service of religion and made Eros divine.
..................................
Ole, the *only* aspect of Eros that Islam has "made divine" is male sexual aggression—not affection, compassion, or any aspect of female sexuality.
You seem like an intelligent and decent person, but I get *so* tired of your endless moral equivalence.
It was not the Pope or Pat Robertson or Rick Santorum or Pastor Terry Jones who have threatened this woman with death for daring to suggest that married women be allowed to enjoy sex—just pious Muslims.
Love and beauty will win over death.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKp68xV2sxY&feature=related
Ole,
I don't have time to read every comment--every lengthy comment--you post on other threads. (And I tell you one thing that deters me from doing so, besides the length: Based on previous attempts, it is often not clear to me when you are quoting extensive pasted-in secondary sources and when you are writing your own words...so when I read you, I have no clear sense of who "Ole Hartling" is and what he believes). I responded to what you wrote in this thread. The other statements you are now adding were not in the comment to which I responded in this thread.
I did read your comments in this thread before responding.
I stand by my comment that the overall impression from your comments was that Islam is a religion of relative sexual freedom, as compared to repressed Christianity. If that was not your intention, you had a strange way of expressing yourself!
BTW, I'm not defending Christianity here. The Bible certainly has some problems viz this topic, as does Catholic doctrine.
...and Ole,
You wrote:
"Instead Islam united the belief with Eros and took it into the service of religion and made Eros divine."
I disagree. Islam certainly divided belief and Eros most dramatically by limiting Muslim women to marrying only Muslim men and not allowing them to have sex prior to marriage. In addition, it conflicts with the freedom of Eros--which is an essential component of genuine love--by compelling Muslim women to have sex whenever their husbands want it, even if they (the women) are not in the mood and don't want it.
I'm sorry, my friend, you are showing a tendency of relying too heavily on secondary sources, including biased pro-Islamic ones.
Kinana
good points.
Gravenimage
you observed that "the *only* aspect of Eros that Islam has "made divine" is male sexual aggression—not affection, compassion, or any aspect of female sexuality."
Precisely.
I seem to recall our friend 'Isabellathecrusader' referring derisively to Islam, on occasion, as 'Mo's "Worship the Penis" Club'.
She was, I think, making essentially the same point as you just did.
Elderly Zionist
so glad you enjoyed that clip of Ofra Haza that I posted - and thank you for the clip that *you* posted.
I 'discovered' her work about a year or so ago. Lovely woman, lovely voice.
Something I could have added is that I understand that at least some rabbis connect the verse that says 'many waters cannot quench love, neither can the floods drown it' to God's bringing of his Bride, Israel, through the sea after He rescued her from Egypt.
Thank you for that extra information you provided about Yemeni Jewish music-making, and how they got round the killjoy Mohammedan ban on musical instruments. That was fascinating.
Question: have you ever heard Jacques Lasry's setting of various passages from the Shir HaShirim - 'Cantique de Cantiques: Cantate Hebraique"? Lasry was from an Algerian Jewish family that fled from Algeria and settled in France, I think in the early 1950s. I first came across his Song of Songs setting in a radio program by a fellow called Karl Haas, but was unable to track down a recording until after the advent of the Internet, and google. I bought an old-fashioned vinyl recording which a tech-savvy friend managed to transfer successfully onto CD.
It's a lovely, haunting piece, in which Lasry is clearly drawing on his knowledge of the traditional music of North African Jews. The female voice - a luscious, dusky contralto - is Sarah Gorby, who is Ashkenazi, from Moldavia; the male voice - a shimmering tenor - belongs to an unnamed singer.
Listening to it, it's easy to understand why exegetes think of the Song of Songs as being at one and the same time *both* a dialogue of a woman and her lover, and a dialogue between YHWH and Israel His Bride.
DDA, thanks for that. I actually missed the link in your post on the first pass. That's what comes of surfing this site during the work day, when I can't play YouTube.
I haven't heard of Lasry, I'll take a note and look him up.
I'm not much of a theologian, or a very deep thinker. People can interpret the Song of Songs as they please, I'll never say they're wrong. For me, that Song will always be Sheba and Solomon singing of their love, the Shunnamite and her Shepherd among the Lillies. For me, that Song will always be the tapestry that my mother embroidered for my father and hung on the wall of their home; Sheba singing to Solomon, "Let my beloved come into his garden and eat the pleasant fruits...".
That's a lovely story, about your mother's tapestry.
And still speaking of the Song of Songs:
My husband and I celebrate our 25th anniversary this year. We were married on the afternoon of Easter Sunday: and at the wedding, one of the Bible passages we chose was chapter 2 and then chapter 8 verses 5-7 (in the classic English King James Version) of the Song of Songs. We read it aloud, together.