Robert Spencer: Why We Don't Need Words Like 'Islamist'

Since I previously had an exchange with Andy McCarthy about the utility of the term "Islamist" (article here; video with transcript here); I read Raymond Ibrahim's new piece, "Why We Need Words Like 'Islamist,'" with great interest.

Raymond initially states the controversy this way:

Is the problem Islam or Islamism? Muslims or Islamists?

These and related questions regularly foster debate (see the exchange between Robert Spencer and Andrew McCarthy for a recent example). The greatest obstacle on the road to consensus is what such words imply; namely, that Islamism and Islamists are "bad," and Islam and Muslims are good (or simply neutral).

That is a bit caricatured, but it does express what is essentially the disagreement: is Islam a religion of peace that has been hijacked by a tiny minority of extremists (the "Islamists,") or are supremacism and violence part of the core and mainstream teachings of Islam, in all its various sects and manifestations?

Several factors make the question more complicated: one is that many analysts use the term "Islamist" to mean an adherent of the tenets of political Islam. And certainly, as Raymond points out in his piece here, some term is needed for such people: for example, a follower of Mubarak in Egypt would likely be a Muslim but not an "Islamist": i.e., not a proponent of Sharia rule. But because of the baggage that is attached to the word "Islamist," and the misleading way it is used in order to deny or downplay the violence, hatred, and supremacism that is in core Islamic texts and teachings, I generally use "Islamic supremacist" instead for the adherents of Sharia and political Islam.

Andy McCarthy, meanwhile, acknowledges the violence in Islamic texts and teachings but uses the term "Islamist" for those acting upon that violence, so as not to discourage moderate Muslim reformers. This is a strange tactic, since genuine reform cannot proceed without an honest acknowledgment of the fact that there is something that needs reforming, and yet McCarthy's usage is intended to distance the problem within Islam from Islam itself -- a comforting fiction that will only discourage genuine reform and make it more difficult.

Here again, the problem with the terms "Islamist" and "Islamism" is that they mislead the uninformed into thinking that the problem of jihad and Islamic supremacism is not as large as it really is, not as deeply rooted within Islam as it really is, and more easily solved than it really is.

Raymond goes on:

Islamism is a distinct phenomenon and, to an extent, different from historic Islam. The staunch literalness of today's Islamists is so artificial and anachronistic that, if only in this way, it contradicts the practices of medieval Muslims, which often came natural and better fit their historical context.

There is some truth to this, but here again, one would be in dangerous waters if one takes Raymond's statement that "Islamism is a distinct phenomenon and, to an extent, different from historic Islam" as meaning that Islam in its various mainstream forms has not always been political and supremacist. Take, for instance, the medieval Muslim Ibn Khaldun (1332-1406), a pioneering historian and philosopher, who was also a Maliki legal theorist. In his renowned Muqaddimah, the first work of historical theory, he notes that “in the Muslim community, the holy war is a religious duty, because of the universalism of the Muslim mission and (the obligation to) convert everybody to Islam either by persuasion or by force.” In Islam, the person in charge of religious affairs is concerned with “power politics,” because Islam is “under obligation to gain power over other nations.”

Another medieval Muslim, Ibn Taymiyya (Taqi al-Din Ahmad Ibn Taymiyya, 1263-1328), was a Hanbali jurist. He directed that “since lawful warfare is essentially jihad and since its aim is that the religion is God’s entirely and God’s word is uppermost, therefore according to all Muslims, those who stand in the way of this aim must be fought.”

In light of that, whether or not they are, as Raymond goes on to argue, "influenced by Westernization," even before these Westernizing influences entered in, they were energized by an imperative to make war against and subjugate unbelievers.

Raymond thus quite rightly goes on to point out that "Islam proper" is not "trouble-free." I agree with those whose views he characterizes this way: "one might argue that use of words like 'Islamist,' while valid, are ultimately academic and have the potential further to confuse the layman." He then goes on to argue for the need for a term for the adherents of political Islam -- and there again, I propose the term "Islamic supremacist," which does not have the baggage of "Islamist," and leads no one to believe that Islam itself is "trouble-free."

Raymond concludes: "why insist on a language that is easily misunderstood and even has the potential to backfire?"

Indeed. And that's why I reject the term "Islamist."

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Indeed. And that's why I reject the term "Islamist."

Me, too. And its equally absurd twin, "Islamism".

Pardon me but I don't favor "isamic supremacit" either as it infers a contradiction between a conventional muslim and a supremacist, which we all know is incorrect. Imho the best formula to use is "muslim activist". It simply means an individual willing to act upon the dictates of islam without expressing a difference of ideologie between the two.

فلا عدوان إلا على الظالمين}، وقال تعالى: {وقاتلوهم حتى لا تكون فتنة ويكون الدين كله لله فإن انتهوا فإن الله بما يعملون بصير}، فأمر بالجهاد حتى لا تكون فتنة وحتى يكون الدين كله لله فجعل المقصود عدم كون الفتنة

Shaikh Ibn Taymiyyah said: The meaning of the verse {وقاتلوهم حتى لا تكون فتنة ويكون الدين كله لله} is that by jihad, until there is no more persecution and all religion is for Allah alone. Simply put, this command upholds the obligation to eradicate oppression."

Oppression (فتنة) according to Islamic law are things that divide the Muslim masses. Anything from criticism of Muhammad or a Brittney Spears music CD.

Every Muslim is an Islamist or else he would not be a Muslim at all. An Islamist is the one who follows the teachings of Mo/allah and every Muslim does that. Therefore there is no need to invent meaningless words like Islamist which at best are very very deceptive about Muslims and Islam and give all Muslims some cover in denying the horrible acts of fellow Muslims. We should just use the word Muslim every time a Muslim follows Islam and practices it in killing non-Muslims. I would not use the word infidel to describe us either as it is the word given by Muslims implying we don't believe in God just because we don't follow that pedophile criminal Mo/allah. Again, there is no difference between Mo and Allah as both are one and the same person - Mo/allah!!

The link to Raymond's article is a dead link. Besides that, I just wanted to comment on how adroit Robert is in addressing his disagreement with his colleague. If only we were all so nuanced and diplomatic.

Erdogaga, sultan of the new Ottoman empire (work in progress) says: "There is no difference between Islam and Islamism. Islam is Islam, period."

I must admit in this case I respectfully agree. But please don't take "respectfully" too serious.

The war on terror has evolved into a war of euphemisms. They fired "Islamophobia" at us, we fired back with "Islamist." My preferred term is "doctrinaire Muslim." People are uncomfortable with this term because it carries with it an acknowledgement that the particular Muslims who are causing all the grief actually have Islamic doctrine on their side. We would prefer not to notice that inconvenient truth.

The fact that no other major religion has to be put through such tortured etymological nuances in order for it to be presented as something good is itself deeply instructive of the real problem.

وقال القرطبي [24]: (وهو أمر مطلق لا بشرط أن يبدأ الكفار، ودليل ذلك قوله تعالى: {ويكون الدين لله}، وقال صلى الله عليه وسلم: [أمرت أن أقاتل الناس حتى يقولوا لا إله إلا الله]، فدلت الآية والحديث على أن سبب القتال هو الكفر، لأنه قال {حتى لا تكون فتنة} أي كفر، فجعل الغاية عدم الكفر، وهذا ظاهر).

Imam al-Qurtobi, well known for his Tafsir on the Qur'an based on Islamic law, says: "And here it's commanded forthrightly, beginning with the Kaafirs. The evidence (دليل) of this, is Allah's reminder: "until all religion is for Allah" (Qur'an) Also, the saying of the Messenger of Allah (صلى الله عليه وسلم) "I have been instructed to kill people until they say the Shahadah (لا إله إلا الله)." These noble verses and narrations quantify the meaning of fighting (القتال) the Kaafirs. This is due to His saying: "until there is no seduction" Any Kaafir, (who is fought against) is due to his disbelief and this is a clear (statement)."

Actually Jaladhi, I would respectfully disagree with your definition of mo/allah as being the same entity.

Purportedly, mohammed was an actual physical fleshly human who lived for a relatively short time in ancient arabia circa 600+ C.E. (common era)

To the best of my knowledge, mohammed, when concocting his "religion", adopted the already worshipped at his time pagan arabian mood god al-ilah as allah. This entity never existed in the physical world but was worshipped as a spiritual entity. Therefore I would propose that mohammed was a fleshly human and I would classify allah as a malevolent spiritual entity or in other words a demon.

Mahound invented Allah from the empty shell of Sin the moon god of Ur of the Chaldee...The Allah of Islam, is not the god of the pagans except by name...Mahound didn't use the name Allah to begin with, he used 'Lord', later 'Rahman', then Allah...if anything Allah was an after thought, and a complete fabrication, not the name, the god...Mahound made him up, which is why they are one and the same...

Yes! How to "disagree" without being disagreeable.
Great lesson in diplomacy taught by Robert Spencer!

Jaladhi, I completely agree with you. Let's call a spade a spade, or in this case, a muslim a muslim. I see no difference between a muslim who is "non-practicing" and a sharia-compliant orthodox willing-to-kill-in-the-name-of-islam muslim. The former is either ignorant of their own "religion" and needs to learn more about it or they are complicit with the latter insofar as they do not stand up and speak out against islam.

The whole "moderate" muslim mantra/mantle is perplexing to me, as I don't get how any sane person, once learning the truth about islam, would continue to associate in any way with such a sick, decrepit cult.

One of the more perplexing examples is that of Tarik Fatah, a Canadian muslim. By all accounts, and based on everything I have heard from him, he is a pro-democracy, westernized, liberal thinking progressive, yet he continues to refer to himself as a muslim. I just don't get it. I keep waiting for the shoe to drop.

As Wellington so often points out, destroy muhammed, destroy islam. With that in mind, why would anyone, knowing what type of filthy piece of trash muhammed was, even slightly want to have any association whatsoever with the horrible stain on humanity that is islam?

I will never trust a muslim 100% as long as they continue to identify themselves as such. And that's my 2 cents.

Ima

"Islamism is a distinct phenomenon and, to an extent, different from historic Islam. The staunch literalness of today's Islamists is so artificial and anachronistic that, if only in this way, it contradicts the practices of medieval Muslims, which often came natural and better fit their historical context." (Raymond Ibrahim).

I agree with Raymond.

All of this discussion of 'Islamism' naturally begs the question: what is the difference between it and Islam? Or is there any appreciable difference between the two?

I my oppinion there is a qualitative difference between Islam and Islamism that we should be aware of, because if you do not know your enemy you cannot fight him effectively.

Islamism is a modern political and revolutionary version of Islam. Islamism definitely has a new element in it. Modern radical Islamism and twentieth-century Western totalitarian movements are not simply akin, moving in parallel to each other. There was a good deal of ideological cross-pollination, and they had real working connections. This is not news in respect to Nazism and Hitler's mufti, Amin al-Husayni. In fact, Qutb said all liberation movements were welcome to his revolution: "The Islamic doctrine adopts all struggelers of liberation in the world and supports them in every place."

Like twentieth-century Western ideologies, Islamism places the burden of salvation upon politics, a total politics that, only through its control every aspect of life, can bring about their version of God's kingdom on earth. Islamism is not a religion in the traditional sense. Most religions, in fact all monotheistic ones, put before man a revelation from God that is similar in certain essential aspects. The revelation contains a moral code by which man is expected to live if he wishes to achieve eternal life in paradise. Paradise is located in the hereafter - never on this earth. So is the hell to which man will be sent if he is disobedient.

Islamism is an ideology in the classic sense in that it offers, or rather insists upon, an alternative “reality” - one that collapses the separate realms of the divine and the human, and arrogates to itself the means to achieve perfect justice here in this world or, as Qutb said, “to abolish all injustice from the earth.” This notion of the inner perfectibility of history – the achievement of perfect justice here – is the very heart of ideology, whether sacred or profane. It places alongside reality its false version and insists that reality conform to its demands. Its adherents live in the magical world of this second reality and obey its laws. They may seem to live and move in the realm of the real world, but they are already transposed into the second false reality. When they behave according to its laws – such as in slaughtering innocent people without remorse – others are surprised and disturbed because they do not know the contours of this second reality, which has just been so shockingly imposed on them.

Jessica Stern, the author of “Terror in the name of God”, reflected the puzzlement that initially strikes almost everyone encountering Islamist terrorism until they come to understand its ideology as a pseudoreligion rather rather than as a political movement. She writes:

“I have some to see that apocalyptic violence intended to 'cleanse' the world of 'impurities' can create a transcendent state. All the terrorist groups examined in this book believe – or at least started out believing – that they are creating a more perfect world. From their perspective, they are purifying the world of injustice, cruelty, and all that is anti-human. When I began this project, I could not understand why the killers I met seemed spiritually intoxicated. Now, I think I understand. They seem that way because they are.”

The joint commissioner of the Mumbai police, Rakesh Maria, said of the captured terrorist Muhammad Ajmal Kasab, the only surviving perpetrator of the 2008 mass murder in Mumbai, India, “He was led to believe that he was doing something holy.”

With scathing sarcasm, Abdelwahab Meddeb, the Tunisian reformist, said of Islamist terrorists, “No criminal is more despicable than one who not only fails to feel any guilt after (committing) his crime, but also harbors the illusion that this (crime) will bring him … divine reward. This conversion of bad into good not only spares him guilt, but also turns an unhappy person into a happy soul.”

Thus, terrorism is not simply terror – some people doing terrible things on the spur of the of the moment. It is murder advanced to the level of a MORAL principle, which is then institutionalized in a organization – a cell, a party, or a state – as its animating principle. It is the rationalization that allows, as Meddeb said, “the conversion of bad onto good”, on which the organization is based. In order to act, terrorists must firmly believe that their violence is moral or “holy”, that it will achieve some higher good. Therefore, the very first thing one must understand is the ideology incarnated in the terrorist organization that allows terrorists to do this; it is the source of their moral legitimacy. Without it, they or their organization cannot exists. It is the “ism” in terrorism. The case of the radical IslamISM, already mentioned, the trinity of thinkers behind the ideology is Sayyid Qutb, Hassan al-Bana, and Maulana Maududi.

(Quoted from Robert R. Reillys "The Closing of the Muslim Mind", 2010, Chapter 8, "The Sources of Islamism").

I think Robert Spencer is wrong when he claims that Islam and Islamism is one and the same:

“The common distinction drawn between “Islam” and “Islamism”, which is accepted without question by the wast majority of public policy analysts, opinion makers, lawmakers, and diplomats, rests on the idea that there is a core, a kernel, or perhaps an original form of Islam that did not teach warfare against non-Muslims; “Islamism” is widely reputed to be a Muslim imitation of fascism and communism that has little or nothing to do with the actual teachings of Islam”.

(Quoted from Robert Spenser’s “The Truth about Muhammad”, 2006, p.6).

There is no peaceful core in orthodox Islam and that is exactly the explanation why Islam could adopt new totalitarian ideas from Nazism and Leninism and create Islamism, instead of adopting ideas about equality from democracy and the rule of law.

WHAT IS WRONG WITH THE NAME "ISLAM" FOR THE RELIGION OF PEACE? MUSLIM IS THE MEMBER OF THE CULT CALLED ISLAM OR RELIGION OF PEACE. WHAT IS THE ISSUE?

I am not a "Islamophobe" I am a Anti-islamist works for me!

Ima Freeman, yes Canadian Tarek Fatah, a so-called beacon of muzlum moderation, is one who sincerely needs to examine why he still clings to izlum when everything he knows about it is rotten to the core; he received so many threats when he was head of Muslim Canadian Congress that he had to quit.

Given that the same can be said of Salim Mansur, a columnist of the (Canadian) Toronto Sun, and because I am a subscriber and they have the stellar Michael Coren as a columnist also, Mansur is another one who I wonder why he keeps stubbornly clinging to izlum when he is a very intelligent person who should really know better (given his extensive knowledge of the history and current events regarding izlum)and confront the contradictions of his beliefs and written words.

If people such as these cannot bring themselves to leave izlum, really what hope do we have for a significant portion of other muzlums to leave - it does not look good on that front.

Was "Mohamed PBUH" a good Muslim or a bad "misunderstander of Islam" Muslim?

If he was a bad Muslim, then - since he invented it - Islam must be bad, evil.

If he was a good Muslim, then Islam must be bad, evil.

ERGO:

Islam is bad, evil.

I see no logical way for any rational human to dispute this.

Oppression (فتنة), as smredneck5 shows here, is, these days, anywhere (virtually everywhere), including web sites/mobile phones (twitter, facebook, this site and others like it) fundamentally un-islamic or non-muslim where muslims can access (all airwaves) or/and have settled (in every country). That's, well, most of the world. At least now it still is. But, the islamists/islamic supremisists/muslim activists, which ever term you choose to use, are dead set on following the teachings and directives of Ibn Khaldun and Ibn Taymiyya as shown here by Mr. Spencer. Scary, very scary.

My article argues that we need words that differentiate, “at least in certain contexts.” I gave several examples—three news headlines that use the word “Islamist,” for instance—to show that, in certain situations, it ranges from meaningless to absurd to use the word “Muslim.” (No one thus far has been able to refute this, to show that we can use “Muslim” in those contexts.)

Intentionally titled “Why We Need Words Like Islamist”—not “Why We Need the Word Islamist”—I argue throughout the article that it really doesn’t matter to me if the word used to differentiate is “Islamist” or something else. After stating my case, I wrote: Is it not better, then, to utilize the accepted terms—‘Islamist,’ ‘Muslim radical,’ ‘Islamic supremacist,’ ‘Islamic fundamentalist,’ anything other than the generic ‘Muslim’—simply to be understood, at least in certain contexts?”

Robert’s response, titled “Why We Don’t Need Words Like Islamist,” in fact agrees that we do need words “like Islamist,” only he “propose[s] the term ‘Islamic supremacist,’ which does not have the baggage of ‘Islamist,’ and leads no one to believe that Islam itself is ‘trouble-free.’”

As I wrote, I have no problem with using “Islamic supremacist” instead of “Islamist.” However, I also believe that to the layperson—the many hundreds of millions we are trying to reach—“Islamist,” “Islamic supremacist,” “Muslim radical,” ad infinitum, are at best synonymous: they all imply something affiliated to Islam, but that is other than “Muslim.” More to the point, I really don’t see how “Islamic supremacist … leads no one to believe that Islam itself is trouble free,” anymore than the word “Islamist.” Seems one can accuse “Islamic supremacist” as a politically correct code word for “Muslim” no less than “Islamist,” though neither of them are necessary, and are needed for the reasons both Robert and I cite.

Finally, I used “Islamist” as the main example of my article simply because it is the most recognizable and mainstream. So many seem to forget that this isn’t—or shouldn’t be—about preaching to a small choir that already understands the threat, but rather reaching out to a grossly misinformed public—a public that, if it merely begins to accept that “Islamists” or “Islamic supremacists” are the “bad guys,” would already be making progress.

Keep the true enemy in mind and march on, using whichever word you deem most appropriate.

Is the problem Islam or Islamism? Muslims or Islamists?
*******
the above exerpt from Raymond presents an either/or when in fact there are three choices above.
1)Islam...:just about entirely bad as shown in the Koran
2) islamism and islamists.....: entirely bad by their fundamentalist interpretation which shuts out the small modicum("the ounce") of truth that exists in the Koran (which is "the pound of deceit")
........And then there's:
3) Muslims.... who are not islamist because they are NOMINAL (as opposed to moderate) they are the 'don't know don't care' camp of the Muslims. They don't give a Shiite what the Koran or mo or anyone says. They do their own thing. They may be either good or bad people. They're the ones that Robert speaks of when he says things like (forgive if I'm misquoting) "the only good Muslim is a bad muslim" they have learned a few platitudes and some cozy traditions from their mamas and that's all they want. ( like some Christians - only when Christians take that attitude its crying shame)
So for a good guy like tarek my guess is he is trying to build a worldview out of a few nice verses clipped out of the book and pasted together so he can cling to a way of life which works for him I appreciate and pity the likes of him because his scriptures are against him.

Ole Hartling:

Everything you quote from Ustadh Sayyid Qutb is the same as what you can find in the works of Ibn Taymiyyah, Ibn Hajr, al-Tahawi and others. (see for example Ibn Taymiyyah's Siysah al-Shari'ya)

The only notable difference between Islam and Islamism is the meaning of jihad. In other words that which is defined as jihad in modernity and in the old era. For example, the Ijma' of the scholars on jihad is that it is a "war against non-Muslims (see Umdat al-Salik o9.0). Imam al-Shafii concurs, as does Imam Ahmad's school of jurisprudence (as in Umdat al-Fiqh by Imam al-Maqdisi and the books of Fiqh by Ibn Taymiyyah, Ibn al-Qayyim, Ibn Rajab al-Hanbali, Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahhab, Ibn Uthaymeen, Ibn Jibreen, bin Baz et al.) and the Maliki school (for instance Ibn Rushd's Bidayat al-Mujtahid al-Nihayat al Muqtasid and al-Qayrawani's Risala and their accompanying Fatwas) as well as the Hanafi school (al-Marghinani's al-Hidayah and the works by Abu Yusuf and ash-Shaybani) ALL OF THEM promote the idea that jihad warfare is against non-Muslim states to subvert them.

Qutb, Mawdudi, Banna et al. all formulated an idea of jihad not ONLY against non-Muslim states, but MUSLIM ONES! This is where they diverge. They believed, as long as evidence decrying the said state's disbelief was brought to the table, that they could be denounced as "Kufr" or "Jahili" societies and be subject to the rule of Islam.

Proponents of this theory use Fatwas by Ibn Taymiyyah, Ibn Uthaymeen, Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahhab, Saleh al-Fawzaan and others to make this case.

See for example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5v6zchc8BE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SztLBLqwtPU
http://www.qsep.com/modules.php?name=aqtawhid&file=article&sid=14

This is because they established precedents by which Takfeer can be applied. Those who apply this principle by the standards outlined by the formulations above, however, as usually labeled "Takfiris" or "Khawarij" (Arabic term means someone who "goes out", referring to the early Muslim sect who claimed that anyone who doesn't conform to any aspect of Islam is a nonbeliever, whereas in traditional Islam there are gauges of "minor sins" and "major sins" etc.).

See for example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phs1ieDz5i8

Things defined as "Kufr":
http://muttaqun.com/kuf.html

"I used “Islamist” as the main example of my article simply because it is the most recognizable and mainstream. So many seem to forget that this isn’t—or shouldn’t be—about preaching to a small choir that already understands the threat, but rather reaching out to a grossly misinformed public—a public that, if it merely begins to accept that “Islamists” or “Islamic supremacists” are the “bad guys,” would already be making progress.

Keep the true enemy in mind and march on, using whichever word you deem most appropriate."

This seems to be the most common sense approach to using this term. However, is it intellectually honest? An Islamist is one who wants to implement the Shari'ah, and a Muslim is one who adheres to the Shari'ah. Islamist is one who wants to impose Islam, Muslim is one who adheres to Islam. The distinction between the two becomes apparent after reading between the lines.

The doctrine of Islam is the Quran plus the Sunnah, or Mohammed. If you know the Quran and Mohammed, you know Islam. The appropriate word to describe a moderate Muslim is an Apostate. You either follow the Quran and Mohammed or you don't, no in-between. Islam created Muslims. Muslims did not create Islam.

^^^^+1

Brilliant! This is (to me) the absolute best summation of islam I have ever read on JW, and this thread.

Can I quote this in future discussions?

"Islam created Muslims. Muslims did not create Islam."

If you think that... you should purchase Robert Spencer's upcoming book.

How about just quote the Qur'an?

"It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision: if any one disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path." [Qur'ân 33:36]

I agree with Raymond on this one (see his comment in this thread). Islamic supremacist is basically the same as Islamist.

Different contexts and subjects require different words. This is not an attempt to soften Islam but to be accurate and not misunderstood. Sometimes simply using "Muslim" or "Islam" can be too general; sometimes "Islamist" (or words like it) can be misleadingly specific. But a variety of terms can help avoid misunderstanding if used accurately and judiciously. I think it's not so much the terms but how they are used that is the issue viz clarity.

Thanks, Smredneck5

I could quote the Korant, as you quoted:

"It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision: if any one disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path." [Qur'ân 33:36]

True what you said/quoted, but I think Hogrider summarized this whole "Islamist/Islamism" debate the best.

Islamist.
Communist.
Buddhist.
Atheist.
Capitalist.

Nope, Islamist is not strong enough, nor does it express what they stand for and conduct themselves as. Nor what their text(s) command. One can be a moderate Buddhist, Atheist, Capitalist, and even Communist and not force your beliefs on others. You have to understand what Islam actually is before it carries weight and most people still don't. That's a key problem with the term, as well.

Islamic supremacist.
White supremacist.

Much better. You don't have to be an expert to know exactly what somebody referred to with those terms is all about. Their religion (or race or gender or whatever) must reign supreme in their minds to any other.

Coincidentally there was a program tonight on PBS on the anniversary of the Tunisian Revolution and its transition to democracy.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/world/jan-june12/tunisia_02-15.html

Here they use the term "moderate Islamist" to describe the dominant Ennahdha Movement -- all very nice sounding.

From Wiki: On 18 May spokesman Samir Dilou stated again in an interview: "We do not want a theocracy. We want a democratic state, that is characterised by the idea of liberty. The people are to decide themselves how they live. ... We are not an Islamist party, we are an Islamic party, that also gets its bearings by the principles of the Koran." Moreover he named Turkey a model, regarding the relation of state and religion, and compared the party's Islamic democratic ideology to Christian democracy in Italy and Germany." 5/11

Turkey, oh boy!


From http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/lead/article2529040.ece

In a recent debate with a secular challenger, Tunisia's Islamist politician and theoretician, Rachid Ghannouchi said: “If the Islamic spectrum goes from Bin Laden to (Turkey's Prime Minister Recep Tayyip) Erdogan, which of them is Islam?” He added: “Why are we put in the same place as a model that is far from our thought, like the Taliban or the Saudi model, while there are other successful Islamic models that are close to us, like the Turkish, the Malaysian and the Indonesian models; models that combine Islam and modernity?” His Ennahda party is expected to do well in Tunisia.


I have no doubt that both Robert and Raymond have their hearts in the right place. On this, I have to say I agree with Raymond that we do need a word _like_ "Islamist", and the term I use when I try to educate those who don't know much about Islam is "Islamic supremacist", a term I learned from Robert.

Yeah... "moderate Islamist party", and it's second in command, and Prime Minister who called for the conquest of Jerusalem.

"Islamist" - what asshattery.

And passive Muslims are ....anti-islamist?

It's a matter of piety. Not 'ism.'

Robert ran a comment from a Muslim student in Canada:


A conversation with several friends on Facebook erupted into something quite extraordinary. An 18 year old Muslim student, from Western University and born in Mississauga had this to say about the distinction between Islam and Islamism:

"case and point on why you dont understand Islam. No one makes this distinction [between Islam and Islamism] other then the Western world, for the sake of having a tidy little system to classify everything. Our religion and political ideology are one. Furthermore, I really wouldnt use the term islamist or Islamism. Many muslims, including myself, find the term deeply offensive."

In other words, IN CANADA, there is an entire generation of Muslims who openly subscribe to 'Islamism' as indistinguishable from Islam.

Indeed.

Now we're talkin'.

Islamists = Muslims who subscribe, to an unknown varying degree, to the texts and tenets of Islam which dictates perpetual warfare against all non-muslims untill all is brought under the rule of Islam and by extension, Muslims.

'Nuff said.

Dr. Pipes?

My tuppence worth:

'Sharia Islam' names the barbaric, theocratic so-called legal system. 'Sharia-ist' names the individual(s) who support Sharia Islam.

For example, 'Honest' Ibe Hooper is a Sharia-ist who supports Sharia Islam.

Anyway, just as a rose by any other name would smell as sweet, Islam or Islamists by any other name would be just as inimical to the best interests of all civilized, free societies.

I have Muslim friends who are not "Islamists" when I mention them the teachings of "Islamists" (i.e., Islamic scholars like bin Baz who said the earth was flat, Wagdi Ghoniem who said that terrorism is part of Islam, Salih al Fawzaan who said that a Muslim who refuses to pray must be killed etc.) and they don't have a problem with it.

However, they don't know (1) Arabic, (2) the view of the majority Muslim scholars, (3) Islam, for if they did they wouldn't do what they do in regards to dress, actions, associations, etc.

Meanwhile shariah is above US laws, according to slaves of allah.

http://www.mrctv.org/videos/mosque-us-shut-down-due-multiple-and-ongoing-violations-still-operating

"You are aiding my harassers." Heard that before.

The K.I.S.S. system.

If one is a "Follower of Islam" , then you have the object of focus within view.

Everybody dances a bit there own way, but dance is still dance.

Also Hogrider wrote..

"The doctrine of Islam is the Quran plus the Sunnah, or Mohammed. If you know the Quran and Mohammed, you know Islam. The appropriate word to describe a moderate Muslim is an Apostate. You either follow the Quran and Mohammed or you don't, no in-between. Islam created Muslims. Muslims did not create Islam."

This is a key, in that islam itself takes on "life" if you will. It explains the need to focus on islam itself, and everywhere it becomes physical (books, buildings, holy sites, etc). To do so gives a target rich enviroment, without the loss of "followers of islam". One can do grave damage to islam without killing its followers.

Crazy? Perhaps, but remember the subject.


I think that the "Islamist" can be called a non-Muslim people doing things for the advancement of Islam. As for Muslims, if it does not kill kafirs, it means that he very bad Muslim

Raymond

Why not use words like Muslim to describe the more general Mohammedan population at large, the term Islamic to describe anything that's known to be documented within Islam, and if one wants to focus on more eggregious behavior, like terror activities, use the term Jihadi to describe that? For things like honor killings, FGMs, mutilations and so on, for instance, just use the term Islamic, since it's something that automatically comes w/ Shariah!

I prefer the term "mohammedan". It's more of a layman's term, and it doesn't sound as lofty as "Islamist" or "Islamic Supremacist".

"mohammedan" is very straightforward and draws your attention directly to the evil founder of islam: muhammad. Whereas "Islamist" or "Islamic Supremacist" does not, and can seem rather confusing to the average person. Okay "mohammedan" doesn't sound very sophisticated as "Islamist" or "Islamic Supremacist", but so what! Is our aim to sound impressive and sophisticated, or to draw everyone's attention to it's evil founder? ...who's really at the heart of the matter.

A "mohammedan", or muslim, is a follower of muhammad, which would include any and ALL muslims from every different sect within islam. Also, the term "mohammedan" in no way tries to whitewash the evil man behind the scene: muhammad, as the other terms seem to do.

So not only do muslims either defend this evil barbarian perverted-prophet, or they pretend that muhammad means nothing to them; but now there are those on the anti-jihad movement seemingly enabling this effort to downplay muhammad with terms like "Islamist" and/or "Islamic Supremacist", almost as if the founder of islam no longer matters to us either. Ahem!, he does matter, and he needs to be exposed for the evil man that he was whenever possible. Lets not play the same games mohammedans play by whitewashing the truth about muhammad. My 2 cents anyway ...

Alas, the whole problem is more of a semantics issue than a conceptual issue. 'Islamism' is a term explicitly designed by the PC/MC mindset to avoid calling a spade a spade, i.e. that Islam as a whole is problematic. It is a misnomer in the sense that it wants to implicitly convey a distinction between a vehemently intolerant, militant Jihadism (purportedly solely propagated by a tiny minority of extremists) on the one hand and an Islam that is supposedly less intransigent than the former type and that can be called "genuine Islam", on the other.

The very intransigence of Islam as a whole is part and parcel of Islam as an ideology, point final. Forget about "moderate" Islam, forget about "reforming" Islam. These concepts derive from none other than the projection of Western insecurities onto a belief system the broader layers of society intuitively (at least) feel is incompatible with or standards and values. This is all about PC MC pussyfooting around the real issues. In the PC MC mindset, self-image management has taken the highest priority, because most of all, Westerners don't like to be seen as intolerant. Seeing as PC MC elites have somehow implicitly decided that we should "live with it, side by side", the ruse of 'Islamism' in the MSM has to be kept alive.

The first premiss should be that Islam itself, as a whole, can be none other than essentially intolerant, discriminatory, disdainful, violent and most of all, perpetually, vehemently agry and unrelentingly harsh.

And therefore, put into the right context:

What Islam IS and DOES to the core = Islamism / Islamist.
From the Politically Incorrect mindset, words like 'Islamism' and 'Jihadism' are perfectly interchangeable, because this premiss leads to the conclusion that they convey exactly the same meaning, which is the only honest approach one can resort to with regards to discussing Islam.

I suppose I line up with you and Raymond, Joe.

There are Muslims and there are Muslims. I will readily admit that not all Muslims are out to blow things up, and some might even want things like real, mutually respectful peace with Israel and others. Whether these are "good" or "bad" Muslims (as Muslims rather than as people), I don't feel competent to judge--even if I retain a highly negative view of Islam as a religion.

Maybe this is only because I've seen Muslims chiefly on the distant fringes of the Islamic realm, where Muslims need to adjust to the sensibilities of others. Further, I know that Muslims also go in and out of their religion. Since I'm a Christian and know Christ's Great Commission (at the end of Matthew), I have my God's command to accommodate at least certain of these people who are exiting Islam. This is why I tend to be wary of anything that might make the Gospel of Christ seem to be a club held over others' heads.

@ Robert Spencer

"But because of the baggage that is attached to the word "Islamist," and the misleading way it is used in order to deny or downplay the violence, hatred, and supremacism that is in core Islamic texts and teachings, I generally use "Islamic supremacist" instead for the adherents of Sharia and political Islam."

Wouldn't you say, Robert, that "Islamic supremacism" derives from the very core concept of Islam called Tawhid, and therefore, even making the distinction between "Islamic supremacism", "Islamism", "Jihadism", "political Islam" et al. actually mirrors (to some degree) the PC MC mindset of making the same deceptive distinction in the first place ? Making the distinction is futile and serves no purpose than to confound the issues inadvertently, because all of these terms are actually interchangeable when put into the politically incorrect context with regards to Islam.

Honestly, I fail to understand how Islam can be anything other than inherently supremacist, when its key concept of Tawhid emphasizes Muslim supremacy all the time. Tawhid is the very culmination of Islamic supremacism to start with !

I agree in substance with Reliapundit:
“Was "Mohamed PBUH" a good Muslim or a bad "misunderstander of Islam" Muslim? – If he was a bad Muslim, then - since he invented it - Islam must be bad, evil. – If he was a good Muslim, then Islam must be bad, evil. -- ERGO: -- Islam is bad, evil.

I see no logical way for any rational human to dispute this.”

It is interesting that Mr. Spencer quotes Islamic authorities:

Take, for instance, the medieval Muslim Ibn Khaldun (1332-1406), a pioneering historian and philosopher, who was also a Maliki legal theorist. In his renowned Muqaddimah, the first work of historical theory, he notes that “in the Muslim community, the holy war is a religious duty, because of the universalism of the Muslim mission and (the obligation to) convert everybody to Islam either by persuasion or by force.” In Islam, the person in charge of religious affairs is concerned with “power politics,” because Islam is “under obligation to gain power over other nations.”

The essential problem is that, regardless of how authoritative the sources are that profess that Muslims are duty-bound to wage jihad against any and all non-Muslims and to seek a subjugating global caliphate by hook or crook, Islam is a brand of mysticism based on the belief of a ghost and relies on the apocryphal assertions of a 7th century person who may or may not have existed. All crimes and atrocities committed by Muslims – from plane hijackings to honor killings to attacks on Israel – are committed in the name of Allah and Mohammad. I’ll take the word of Khaklun and other ancient Islamic scholars that essentially every Muslim is a jihadist willing to wage war on other men.

I don’t distinguish between “moderate” Muslims (“non-extremist”) and “extremists.” The “extremists” or “Islamists” are more consistent and practice the core imperatives of Islam. There’s no denying that. “Moderate” or “non-violent” Muslims are Islam’s silent majority. They are compelled to tacitly endorse the agenda of the Muslim Brotherhood. Period. Whether or not they’ve read the Koran from end to end, is irrelevant. They sanction the doctrine, just as Catholics are implicitly opposed to birth control and contraceptives, whether they’ve read the Bible or actually practice birth control.

As a species of mysticism, Islam must be repudiated from top to bottom. It can’t be “reformed” to make it palatable to Muslims who wouldn’t hurt a flea, let alone infidels or their own daughters or Jews. Islam is chock full of imperatives to slay, conquer or subjugate. Islam is not by any stretch of the imagination a rational guide for living. As such, it must be repudiated without qualification or reservation.

So, we don’t really need terms such as “Islamist” or even “Islamic supremacist.” They merely confuse and cloud the issue. And I think this whole dispute centers on a reluctance to implicate all Muslims in the crimes committed by their more consistent and activist brethren. Well, that shouldn’t be a problem. If we were at war with Nazi Germany, and had a thousand-member American Nazi Bund living in this country who took no action to sabotage factories or kill Americans, would not those members be worthy of condemnation as well as the Nazi government? After all, they subscribed to the ideology and implicitly endorsed any and all actions of the Nazi government.

This dispute between Mr. Spencer and Mr. Ibrahim is wholly unnecessary, but a logical outcome of failing to condemn Islam wholesale.

I personally use the term Islamist, or sometimes Islamic (as in phobic, mechanic, psychic, etc), and the ever popular Islamic supremacist, in addition to simply Muslim. It depends on context and who I am talking with. It is about conveying the truth to the listener, not distilling the Islamic menace down to a dictionary definition.
Maxilo (no relation) has it correct. Attaching supremacist also separates the Muslim activists from nominal or rote-Muslims. Uninformed people will remain uninformed no matter what vocabulary we use.
Basic exposure to the daily barbarism committed by Muslims is not being done as a matter of course by our media, just as the Holocaust wasn't exposed until it was over after WWII. Nearly every story here on JW could lead the news, but doesn't. I suggest we use all the terms as needed, but especially get the news out of the religious cleansing of non-Muslims in vast areas in Asia, Africa, and districts in Europe, boycott any nation that has apostasy and blasphemy laws, and be very critical of treasonous politicians and generals who associate us with the Saudis, Iraqis, Afghans, Pakistanis, Dubai, etc. or assist with implementing sharia law.

who gives a crap? no matter what you call it,it is still a religion full of hatred and violence that tells those who beleive to kill any and all those who do not!!this should never be forgotten.........

@ Raymond: I agree with you 100%! It's a strategic issue. While those of us this blog might well understand that - to quote Erdogan - "Islam is Islam", we need to convince those outside our circle. If we insist (correctly, let's stipulate), that the real problem is Islam in toto we have little chance to win them over. So let us say that it's "islamism" or that it's "Islamic Supremacism", or "whichever word we deem appropriate". Once those who are not now in the counter-jihad camp acknowledge the problem with "Islamism" or "Islamic Supremacism" they can learn more about the Supremacism inherent in the Islamic Trilogy
The other demographic we want to encourage is surely those Muslims, like Tarek Fatah, et al who, while we might wonder - as some posters have done - why they're still Muslim, nonetheless are fighting the same pathology we are here.
In short, I'm a Spencerian on the reality of Islam, but I'm an Ibrahimian on the strategy of how to fight that reality- the egregious Supremacism of Islam.
Robert and Raymond: please kiss and make up. Let's fight the common enemy!

Exactly right, Robert.

Christians are commanded to spread the Gospel, a lot of us don't but all of us support those who do.
Muslims are commanded to kill us, a lot of Muslims don't kill but they support those who do.

In WWII did any one argue for the use of Nazist rather than Nazi?

Amazing article here, there has been also a new wave on the "New Maghrebi Christians", where North Africa is changing rapidly across the nations for more information about this article.

http://www.maghrebchristians.com/2012/02/16/learning-from-the-new-maghrebi-christians/

God bless and I am praying for Jihad watch you are doing an amazing job here.

Youssef

I agree with you about the PC MC effect at work here and everywhere. I call myself an islamoloathe, that is, one who hates Islam because I hate evil and especially organized evil; PCMC would have it otherwise because it is too black or too white even though it really is. There are many issues which should be answered with a "Yes" or "No", but the effect of PCMC is "Yes, but..." with exaggerations, contradictions, pretzelisms, and lies to follow.

In my skit, RESIST ALLAH's ARMY, I said that apostasy was desertion in face of the enemy during war and hence results in the military justice sentence of death. I said blasphemy was equivalent to challenging the chain of godly command and this too can result in death.

Taking the army analogy a little further, there are three functions on the battlefield: support, combat support, and combat service support. This covers all muslims and mushlims regardless of their cover IMO.


If I have a function, an important part is to make the word muslim produce an automatic loathing.

Small add one. Many people are resistant to make hard value judgements because to do so will impair the equanimity that so many seek. Hate does destroy equanimity. Because of JW and its education I have lost any chance for equanimity except that which might come in the twilight of dementia.

"Pardon me but I don't favor "islamic supremacist" either as it infers a contradiction between a conventional muslim and a supremacist, which we all know is incorrect."

Quite right, maxilo.

Ooops.
COMBAT, combat support, and combat service support. This covers all muslims and mushlims regardless of their cover IMO.

The mere fact that we can get this straight from the horse's mouth everywhere, so to speak, should rationally be enough of an incentive for civilized people everywhere (i.e. non-Muslims) to finally do away with self-delusional PC MC conceptions pertaining to "the tiny minority of extremists" ruse.

Very true. We should loathe what is loathsome by civilized standards and show no tolerance to the intolerant, no respect to the disrespectful. Only with political incorrectness as a prerequisite can civilized society start reaffirming itself.

I forgot to mention when speaking of Salim Mansur the supposedly enlightened but definitelly intelligent muslim columnist for the Toronto, uses the terms islamist and islamism constantly; consequently I can only take with a grain of salt much of what he says, he is in my opinion, not being completely honest with himself and thereby in extension, with his readers.

I am one of those who has a visceral reaction to the terms "Islamism" and "Islamists." Because some (perhaps many) of the folks who adopted these terms, including radio talk show hosts, bought all the nonsense that was peddled by Tony Blair, G. W. Bush, Bill Clinton, etc. after the 911 attacks. They bought all these lies that Islam is essentially a religion of peace that's been hijacked by some terrorists who are traitors to their faith.

I am against the use of such ridiculous terms as "Islamist" instead of Muslim and "Islamism" instead of Islam; such terms are unneccessary and serve no purpose but to add to the confusion when discussing Islam.

"Several factors make the question more complicated: one is that many analysts use the term "Islamist" to mean an adherent of the tenets of political Islam."
Now wait a minute. Isn't Islam primarily a political system? So isn't using the term "political Islam" something like saying someone is a wealthy billionaire.

We don't need anymore confusion when discussing Islam by introducing terms like Islamist or Islamism; the Muslims and Islamic apologists are already supplying enough confusion without any help from us.

Hi Everyone,
This a very important discussion with many great posts, with a few nailing it completely. Those 'nailing it' from my viewpoint are (but not limited to): hogrider, Anushirvan, Skeen66.
For me islam is islam. Part of islam's brilliance is that it is purposefully confusing, such that even those (jw people) who are not fooled by it are at a loss as to how to name it. I think it is important to acknowledge to one another (as raymond mentioned in his post), that what we are searching for is a way to communicate the truth about islam to the masses of infidels who have been indoctrinated by pc-ism and lied to by islamists (see even i'm using one of the words). We must know that islam is islam. For me it is like a virus that affects muslims to many varying degrees but it is the same virus no matter and can 'break out' into jihadism at any point. There are those of us who, in wading through pc-ism ourselves, are searching for a way to educate the masses who are indoctrinated. There are those of us who are like purists, who don't want to sugar coat it at all (I'm in this camp) and those who know the truth that we know but who think that the best strategy is to use more palatable words to wade through the pc soup. I think both are fine and both are necessary, as long as those wading through the pc garble realize that what they are doing is a strategy to educate and not alienate BUT that they don't get caught up in pc indoctrination themselves (which is very easy because pc-ism is so powerful and so prevalent). In the end, we are all on the same team and we need to be coordinated in our message and not get caught in the web of lies. This is about educating the masses to the truth of islam and doing it faster that the islamists are doing their thing. It's a race and we're all in it! Thanks to all of you. It is an honor to be in such company. Truly some of humanities finest!
Rob

I like to keep things simple, so my one word description of Islam is 'evil'...It's a simple as that...

A friend of mine, IQ al Rassooli, insists on using "muhammadan" instead of "islamist" to differentiate between those who call themselves muslims but don't follow muhammad's violent example and those who do.

He explanation is that the arabic term "muslim" linguistically applies to any person of a monotheistic faith, while "muhammadan" applies specifically to those who practice muhammad's cult. (He also proves islam is a cult, unlike other mainstream religions.)

I really prefer his distinction over the islamists/muslim terms.

This is an excellent debate, and regardless of the outcome it should raise the profile of all associated issues. While I think Spencer rocks as an independent scholar, I must say that I lean toward Ibrahim on this question. Debates like this are good, though, and I encourage all to keep it on a respectful level, as the principals are doing.

ISLAMISM - its sources.

While most ideologies are secular attempts to displace religion as the main obstacle to fulfillment, Islamism is based upon the deformed theology that nonetheless shares in the classical ideological conflation of heaven and earth into one realm.

It is exactly in these terms that its chief ideologue, Sayyid Qutb, spoke ”Islam chose to unite earth and heaven in a single system” (from “Social Justice in Islam”). This means that “the patent purpose of establishing God's law on earth is not merely an action for the sake of the next world. For this world and the next world are but two complementary stages . … Harmonizing with the divine law does not mean that man's happiness is postponed to the next life, rather it makes it real and attainable in the first of the two stages” (from “Milestones”). In other words, transcendent ends will be achieved by earthly means, as Qutb said, “to reestablish the Kingdom of God upon earth” or “to create a new world.”

This is obviously not a political objective but a metaphysical one. Its achievement will bring about a condition, predicted Qutb, which sounds eerily similar to that proclaimed by Marx for his classless society: “Universal adoption of the Divine law would automatically mean man's complete emancipation from all forms of enslavement” (from “Islam and Universal Peace”). To reach this goal, announced Maududi, “Islam wants the whole earth and does not content itself with only a part thereof. It wants and requires the entire inhabited world”.

It should be no surprise that, in its political manifestation, Qutb's “single system” duplicates the features of the totalitarian regimes of the twentieth century's secular ideologies and of Socrates' proto-totalitarian city in Plato's “Republic”. In “The Republic”, Socrates showed the limits of the political by transposing the order of the soul into the political order and letting us see, in the form of an imaginary state, what such a transposition would mean. He asked, in effect: if we tried to realize politically a perfect state according to the order of the soul, what would we get? The answer was: the garrison state, the destruction of the family, regimentation, the abolition of the private, eugenics, state education, etc. In other words, the political order cannot satisfy the highest needs of man. Politics cannot meet the goal of the human soul, for it cannot achieve perfect justice; if it is made the vehicle for doing so, it will end in a horrendous tyranny. This is the profound error into which both the Western totalitarians and the Islamists fell.

Therefore, it is only logical that “in such a state”, as described by Qutb's ideological soul mate, Maulana Maududi, “no one can regard any field of his affairs as personal and private. Considered from this aspect the Islamic state bears a kind of resemblance to the Fascist and Communist states. It is he remarked, “the very antithesis of secular Western democracy.” In a line worthy of Robespierre, Sayyid Qutb said that a “just dictatorship” would “grant political liberties to the virtuous alone.” Hassan al-Banna, whose bedtime reading was al-Ghazali, also regarded the Soviet Union under Stalin as a model of a successful one-party system.

So long as some part of the world eludes the control of the Islamist revolutionary, conflict continues – with the “dar al harb” (the abode of war) – just as perpetual revolution was proclaimed by Marxists until the complete overthrow of the bourgeois order or by the Nazis until the eradication or enslavement of inferior races. Since total control is never achieved, an excuse is always available for why the kingdom has not arrived, just as it was with the ever-receding prospects of a classless society for the Marxists. The excuse for nor having achieved the utopia of God's kingdom on earth, or the Thousand-Year Reich, or of the classless society, is always the same, and roughly analogous: An infidel has escaped our grasp, a Jew has escaped, or a Capitalist has eluded us. Thus, paradise is forever postponed, and the war continues as part of a permanent revolution. As Qutb proclaimed, “This struggle is not a temporary phase but a perpetual and permanent war.” And Hassan al-Banna said, “What I mean with jihad is the duty that will last until the Day of of Resurrection.”

THE FOUNDATION OF HATRED

The fuel for the permanent war is the same for Islamism as it was for Marxism-Leninism and Nazism; it is hatred. Only the object of hatred changes – from race hatred in Nazism and class hatred in communism to hatred of the infidel in radical Islamism, to include any Muslim who does not conform to its version of Islam. “We must hate “, Lenin counseled; “hatred is the basis of communism.” Bin Laden's parallel doctrine is equally explicit: “As to the relationship between Muslims and infidels, this is summarized by the Most High's Word: “We (Muslims) renounce you (non-Muslims) . Enmity and hate shall forever reign between us – till you believe in God alone” (Qur'an 60:4). So there is an enmity, evidenced by fierce hostility from the heart. … If the hate at any time extinguishes from the heart, this is great apostasy! … Battle, animosity, and hatred – directed from the Muslim to the infidel – is the foundation of our religion.” (Raymond Ibrahim, “Osama bin Laden as Robin Hood?” in “American Thinker”, September 11, 2008).

The most successful megaphone for this message today is the Internet, which radical Islamists use to create what Dr. Jerrold M. Post, a professor of psychiatry, political psychology, and international affairs at George Washington University, calls “a virtual community of hatred.”

The definition of Islamism attempted by Robert R. Reilly in “The Closing of the Muslim Mind” (2010) – partly quoted above - seems consistent and valuable in describing a new element and driving force in Islam created out of despair and anger over the abolition of the caliphate in 1924.

The abandonment of the caliphate left some Muslims completely adrift. It was as if the Vatican had abjured its authority to represent the church. How could the end of the caliphate be explained? Its abolition called into existence the first Islamist organizations such as the Muslim Brotherhood, the “al-Ikhwan al-Muslimun”, dedicated to its restoration. While most Muslims may not share in the Islamist mythology regarding the caliphate, which did not exist continuously from the time of Muhammad, they nonetheless do require an explanation for the decline of their civilization.

A somewhat similar situation existed in Germany after World War I, which Hitler was able to exploit with the Nazi Party. In fact, there are striking parallels to this sense of grievance tht can be found in “Mein Kampf”. The comparison is not adventitious. There were associations between the Nazis and the early Islamists going back to the 1930s, when Hassan al-Banna, the founder of the Ikhwan, modeled the Muslim Brotherhood on the Brownshirts. The German sense of grievance came from defeat in WW I and the metaphysical shock of the collapse of the Second Reich. This loss was inconceivable to them. The world had somehow been turned upside down. To comprehend the loss, Hitler and his companions explained it in terms of first the internal enemy and then the external enemy. Germany was stabbed in the back. Where was the rot in German society from which this betrayal came? The racist Nazi answer was the Jew. Germany must expunge the Jew and purify itself for the battle against the external enemy in order to bring about the millenarian vision of the Third Reich and the supremacy of the Aryan race.

Similarly, Islamists try to focus the widely shared sense of grievance and humiliation in the Muslim world on the loss of the caliphate because they wish to restore it. Their explanation for the decline of their civilization is, as indicated above, a loss of faith. The solution to this problem is obviously not imitating the West, but restoring Muslim faith to a pristine condition, as defined by them. They, too, began looking for the internal enemy and then the external enemy. Ayman al-Zawahiri, gives typical expression to this formulation in describing “the apostate domestic enemy and the Jewish-crusader external enemy.” It is here, at the heart of the effort to restore past glory, that the questions asked in the introduction reappear.

Are the Islamists of today something new or a resurgence of something from the past? How much of this is Islam an how much is Islamism? (*) Is Islamism a deformation of Islam? If so, in what way and from where has it come? And why is Islam susceptible to this kind of deformation?

Those are the questions Robert R. Reilly attempts to answer in his much praised book. It seems to me that both Ibrahim and Spencer could benefit from taking Reilly's masterful analysis into consideration. Islamism describes in my view a new phase of Islam that cannot be adequately understood solely within the theological framework of orthodox Islam. Islamism transcends this framework and therefore need a new designation.

(*) Islamism is used here as a form of shorthand for Muslim totalitarian ideology. It is in some ways an unsatisfactory term, as there are self-proclaimed Islamists who would not subscribe to this meaning of the term. However, it is useful to designate the transmogrification of Islam into an ideology.

The excuse for nor having achieved the utopia of God's kingdom on earth, or the Thousand-Year Reich, or of the classless society, is always the same, and roughly analogous: An infidel has escaped our grasp, a Jew has escaped, or a Capitalist has eluded us. Thus, paradise is forever postponed, and the war continues as part of a permanent revolution. As Qutb proclaimed, “This struggle is not a temporary phase but a perpetual and permanent war.” And Hassan al-Banna said, “What I mean with jihad is the duty that will last until the Day of of Resurrection.”

The quote assumes that unending warfare is something advocated by a tiny minority of extremists.

However it is well known by the Aqidah of the Salaf that "Hajj and jihad under the leadership of those in charge of the Muslims, whether they are right or wrong-acting, are continuing obligations until the Last Hour comes. Nothing can annul or controvert them." (at-Tahawiyyah)

"The fuel for the permanent war is the same for Islamism as it was for Marxism-Leninism and Nazism; it is hatred. Only the object of hatred changes – from race hatred in Nazism and class hatred in communism to hatred of the infidel in radical Islamism, to include any Muslim who does not conform to its version of Islam. “We must hate “, Lenin counseled; “hatred is the basis of communism.” Bin Laden's parallel doctrine is equally explicit: “As to the relationship between Muslims and infidels, this is summarized by the Most High's Word: “We (Muslims) renounce you (non-Muslims) . Enmity and hate shall forever reign between us – till you believe in God alone” (Qur'an 60:4). So there is an enmity, evidenced by fierce hostility from the heart. … If the hate at any time extinguishes from the heart, this is great apostasy! … Battle, animosity, and hatred – directed from the Muslim to the infidel – is the foundation of our religion.” (Raymond Ibrahim, “Osama bin Laden as Robin Hood?” in “American Thinker”, September 11, 2008).

The most successful megaphone for this message today is the Internet, which radical Islamists use to create what Dr. Jerrold M. Post, a professor of psychiatry, political psychology, and international affairs at George Washington University, calls “a virtual community of hatred.”

Radical Islamism... prove it's radical. Find me one Islamic scholar from among the modern or classical scholars who don't formulate similar theology.

"Similarly, Islamists try to focus the widely shared sense of grievance and humiliation in the Muslim world on the loss of the caliphate because they wish to restore it. Their explanation for the decline of their civilization is, as indicated above, a loss of faith. The solution to this problem is obviously not imitating the West, but restoring Muslim faith to a pristine condition, as defined by them."

Ah huh.

It was narrated that Ibn ‘Umar said: “The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: ‘Whoever imitates a people is one of them.’” (Narrated by Abu Dawood, al-Libaas, 3512. Al-Albaani said in Saheeh Abi Dawood, (it is) hasan saheeh. No. 3401).

Al-Munaawi and al-‘Alqami said: i.e., dressing as they dress, following their way of life in clothes and some of the things they do.

Al-Qaari said: i.e., whoever imitates the kuffaar, such as in how one dresses, etc., or imitates the evil and immoral people, or the Sufis or the righteous, is one of the people whom he imitates, whether they are good or bad.

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah said in al-Siraat al-Mustaqeem: Imaam Ahmad and others quoted this hadeeth as evidence. This hadeeth at the very least implies that it is haraam to imitate them, as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“... And if any amongst you takes them [Jews and Christians] as Awliyaa’ [friends, helpers]), then surely, he is one of them…” [al-Maa’idah 5:51]

Ibn Umar reports that the Prophet (pbuh) said: "I have been sent with a Sword [and have been directed to fight the people] until only the One God, Who has no partners is worshipped. Blessings have been ordained for me, under the shadow of my spear; and disgrace is the fate of all those, who oppose my message. And whoever adopts an appearance similar to a people shall be considered to be from amongst them."

"Islamism describes in my view a new phase of Islam that cannot be adequately understood solely within the theological framework of orthodox Islam. Islamism transcends this framework and therefore need a new designation."

Of course it is, this is the only time in Islamic history where Muslims have disregarded nearly all tenets of their religion and have been without Islamic Governance for nearly 88 years.

However, it can be adequately understood within the traditional framework of Islam. If you went to any Islamist website it would be apparent.

This is a dilemma. I think all can agree that not all Muslims are extremists in the same sense that not all Christians, Jews, etc. diligently practice their religion or are intimately familiar with their guiding doctrines and structure their lives in strict accordance with same. But there are no doubt radical ___________ fill in the blank. So what to call these? Catholic, Jewish, etc. supremacists, terrorists, etc.? Well yes; of course; no problem here; not to worry about severe bodily injury or death from these "terrorists" so those so inclined can "bravely" exercise their political correctness can huff & puff to their anti-religious hearts content.

But from the "religion of peace" you might want to remain incognito; hide your identity; keep your mouth shut or again, perhaps the “best” tactic is to "bravely" exercise political correctness and "kiss up" so as to keep their precious little a_ses comfortably intact while self congratulating their “high minded, superior, intellectually discriminating bravado.” What the heck! The dhimmi Muslim collaborators hate America and what it represents too and are in no danger of condemnation or physical violence from their like minded contemporaries.

There may be some raised eyebrows here but this is essentially the problem for the "unbelievers," a problem the Islamic extremists exploit to great effect relying on the carefully inculcated ignorance regarding the violent nature of Islam whence the mere appearance or mention of its name immediately illicits the Pavlovian response, "the religion of peace." Hard to encourage an open discussion much less establish a connection with decapitation, amputation, stoning, honor killings and insane, desperate, miserable, indoctrinated, suicidal dupes wearing explosives on their person, anticipating the immediate gratification of every suppressed sexual fantasy once they pull the trigger. This last is so bizarre the only logical possibility is that it must be the “irrational conjuring” of right wing extremists whose most recent incarnation is the Tea Party and these are also non-threatening targets, easy to demonize and fervently hated too.

Islamists, Islamic Supremacists, Muslim extremists, political Islam, Islamic terrorists, Muslim fanatics, orthodox Muslims, etc.; I think I’ve used them all in comments written over the past few years and remain uncomfortable, stuck with a western heritage and our American attitudes towards freedom of religion, freedom of conscience and a youthful memory of the shame of the Japanese American experience during WWII, determined not to paint all Muslims with the same incriminating brush. But I have to ask myself; where are all the Muslims who practice a more rational version of their religion, where do they practice it, who is their apolitical, moderate, Westernized Imam and why aren’t they standing up, en masse, forcefully condemning their radical, fanatical counterparts and demanding a long overdue reformation and accommodation to 21st century mores? Either the majority of the Muslim community agrees that they are superior to all other religions, benignly and patiently awaiting the promised Caliphate or they too refuse to put their own lives in jeopardy for being perceived as apostates and, if the Jihad succeeds, by whatever means, they will not be in jeopardy and will be accepted with open arms, perhaps. Perhaps they’ll be forgiven for their lack of active participation in the violent Jihad.

Whatever pejorative is used to describe these insane, medieval fanatics will not suffice to expose the extent of the rot that festers within until the Western, non-Muslim world becomes aware and eventually convinced that the threat is not from radical fanatics but from a society of over a billion souls repressed and being indoctrinated with 7th century dogma that glorifies death over life and a psychotic, man made image of G_d and his earthly perversion of a prophet, a violent, militaristic pedophile who Muslims consider the epitome of the Muslim man, the one to emulate, perfection personified.

It is not surprising that the hierarchy of the movement to bring about this realization are still arguing over terminology while the quest for enlightenment struggles on.

I would like to just comment on something I found odd when I was at the sufi festival in Omdurman a couple of weeks ago. At one stage in the evening, there were gunshots (police, as it turned out) and general pandemonium, people rushing towards the exits. When I asked the young man next to me what was happening, he said I should leave as there were some very dangerous people who had come, and they had weapons. But who? "Muslims," he answered. "But you are all Muslims," I said. When I persisted, he indicated short trousers and I knew who he meant straight away.
Later I remembered in a book I had read about Sudanese refugees an account by a (Muslim)university student who talked about the "Muslims" by whom she evidently meant the radicals, who were causing trouble and threatening other students, all who were Muslim.
Maybe the others referred to themselves as "sufis" rather than "Muslims", but I don't know. If they identify themselves that way, no wonder the ("Islamist") government is out to get them!

If Muhammad could return to Earth today he would praise the militants such as the Taliban, Hamas, Hezbollah and dear old Abu Qatada. He would also have good words for all Muslims who are actively engaged in stealth Jihad. These are the REAL Muslims following the instructions contained in the Quran and Sunnah. They are also following the Muhammad's example as laid out in the Sirah. They have not hijacked the religion THEY ARE THE REAL FOLLOWERS OF ALLAH AND MUHAMMAD. Those who have fallen by the wayside and merely attend the mosque, pray and fast, while reaping all the benefits the West has to offer, will, in the fullness of time, find themselves in Hell with us infidels, having their skins burned off and drinking Coca-Cola like molten brass. While do the intellectuals have to confuse the situation with Islamism amd Islamist ?

I just got an email from Anderson Cooper sharing his thoughts on this. He says he prefers the term “Arab Springers.”

I rarely cross-post, but here is what I had to say on Raymond Ibrahim's original thread:

For example, consider these recent news headlines: “Egypt’s Islamists secure 75 percent of parliament"; “U.S. official meets with Egypt’s Islamists”; and “Islamist Named Speaker of Egypt House.” Think of how meaningless it would be to use the word “Muslim” in these headlines...
.............................

Excellent point, Mr. Ibrahim. I have actually found "Islamist" useful in just this specific context—that is, to describe the most orthodox strain of Islam and its followers in an already Muslim country.

I also use the term "Islamizing" to describe a country—Muslim or otherwise—that is becoming more strictly Islamic.

We are seeing this now all across the Mahgreb.

More:

Islamism is a distinct phenomenon and, to an extent, different from historic Islam.
.............................

Not sure I entirely agree with this. From my study of history, it appears Dar-al-Islam has experienced periods of comparative laxity interspersed with waves—often violent waves—of strict Islam.

We are certainly seeing a disturbing trend towards this over much of the Muslim world right now—but this is hardly the first time this has happened.

Just one example would be the rise of the Wahabbism in the 18th century.

[I should have added that Islam—even at its "least worst", is still unfree and oppressive]

Incidentally, I'd like to thank Robert Spencer for hosting this debate. He has another point of view, here:

[I provided a link to this article]

Mr. Ibrahim -

"(No one thus far has been able to refute this, to show that we can use “Muslim” in those contexts.)"
___________________________________________

Please see my reply to you in your piece from yesterday. While it does not strictly refute your contention, I believe it goes a ways toward doing so, though I'm not terribly interested in refutation - rather, clarity.

"The quote assumes that unending warfare is something advocated by a tiny minority of extremists."

Unending warfare - Jihad - is orthodox Islam advocated by all the existing schools of jurisprudence. So it is main stream Islam. The problem is who in Islam has the authority to wage offensive Jihad when there is no caliph. Islamism offer a solution to this problem.

"Radical Islamism... prove it's radical. Find me one Islamic scholar from among the modern or classical scholars who don't formulate similar theology."

In this context "Radical Islamism" refers to the means used to achieve the political goal of Islamism - radical means are violence and terror, but not all Islamists advocate violence.

While Muslims everywhere observe the five pillars of Islam, they are culturally very different in, say, Indonesia and the Arab world. However, this highly heterogeneous character is in danger of being homogenized. The engine for the homogenization is Qutb's Islamist ideology, which has demonstrated tremendous cross-cultural appeal. Qutb's writings are considered the new writ, along with those of Pakistani writer Maulana Maududi and Hassan al-Banna, the founder of the Muslim Brotherhood. Qutb's teachings are at the foundation of, for instance, the Justice and Prosperity Party (PKS), which is the fastest-growing and only dues-paying party in Indonesia, as well as the more explicitly violent Jemaah Islaiyah. The Hizb ut-Tahrir organization, which is banned in most Muslim countries, has had quite an impact in central Asia and western Europe. The foundation of its ideology is also Sayyid Qutb. The people at whom Hizb ut-Tahir aims are the intelligentsia and the upper middle class across the Islamic World. Hizb ut-Tahrir does not explicitly advocate violence and terrorism, but prepares the intellectual foundation for it by using Qutb's teachings. On the other hand, al Qaeda, also spawned by Qutb'ideology, explicitly promotes violence in the fifty-some nations in which it has a presence. Qutb's brother, Muhammad, taught Osama bin Laden at Abdul Aziz University in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia. Islamic Jihad in Palestine, another Qutb clone, advcocates violence. Iran's Supreme Leader. Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, translated substantial parts of Qutb's work into Farsi, demonstrating the impact of Qutb's thought across the Sunni-Shi'ite divide. In other words this is not a local phenomenon. The cross-cultural appeal of this ideology reflects a deeper crisis within Islam itself. It is at its most exacerbated form in the Arab world, but it exist everywhere in the Muslim universe or umma.

Why is Qutb so popular and influential? There is a two-fold answer. Part of the explanation comes from the abiding sense of Muslim grievance and humiliation to which Qutb's ideology plays. This part stems from Islam itself, which takes as its model for success the Companions of the Prophet, who blazed the way to glory and empire. So, said Qutb, Muslims must remove the accretions of the ages and go back to that original community, model themselves on the Companions and prepare to do what they did - to retake the world, and to reestablish the caliphate. The instrument for doing this, depending on which Islamist you talk to, is a combination of persaution (dawa) and jihad, both of which are grounded in traditional Islam, or simply jihad.

Qutb blamed the Jews in Istanbul for conspiring in the collapse of the caliphate ("The Jews have always been the prime movers in the war declared on all fronts against the advocates of Islamic revival throughout the world"), and labeled impious Muslims as the internal enemy, who must be vanquished so that the infidel West could be confronted and overcome. This much of the program can be understood from Islam alone, without any contamination by Western ideology.

The rest of the appeal stems from the results of the ancient struggle within Islam over the primacy of power versus the primacy of reason, which has been the subject of Reillys book. As we know the outcome of this contest decisively affected the character of the Islamic world in which Qutb could find such a ready audience for his ideology. The infection of Western millenarian ideological thought from Nietzsche and Marx would not have made Islamism the attraction it is unless Islamism was not also able to claim legitimacy by drawing upon something within the tradition of Islam itself. For this, Islamist thinkers selectively chose one, albeit a primary one, of the many theological and philosophical traditions within Islam's rich history. The nexus between this school of thought and Western totalitarian ideology was the primacy of will.

I think you will have to read Reilly's book and careful consider all his arguments before you outright reject the idea that Islam has adopted some new elements (or revitalized and transformed old ones) to become a political revolutionary ideology, and is no longer the same old Islam that conquered half the world a millennium ago.

I agree with Raymond and Ole Hartling completely, and I don't think the matter is either trivial or foolish.

My main reason is this (and I was happy to hear Andrew McCarthy's remarks, as I hadn't heard his opinion on the matter before and it's so close to my own): it's conducive to reform in Islam.

There are plenty of Muslims here in the U.S. who have no affinity for Sharia and no desire to "Islamize" our nation. Like people of other faiths often do, these Muslims pick the positive, peaceful bits from their scriptures to focus on (if they focus on Islam much at all), observe major religious holidays, and condemn violent and bigoted acts carried out by all people, including Islamists. Some have never set foot in a mosque, and the family Quran may sit in a privileged spot on the bookshelves, but it's picked up to be dusted more often than to be read. As is often acknowledged here, many U.S. Muslims are Westernized people who truly appreciate Western values.

Step into their shoes for a moment. On one side you've got nosy imams and co-religionists demanding that you be more pious and adopt a violent jihadist orthodoxy, and on the other side you've got your non-Muslim neighbors demanding that you condemn your religion altogether, or else they'll dismiss you as blood-soaked, anti-American theocrats.

We bemoan the lack of Muslims openly coming forward to condemn jihadism, but that's not what is really being asked of them, at least not by many of the commentators here. What's actually being demanded is that they condemn their religion outright, and what more could they see in that except a jump from the frying pan into the fire, and a demand that they convert? That's neither fair nor practical.

One of those two sides is going to prevail with the youth of integrated Muslim families here, and those of you who won't even let these good Americans differentiate themselves religiously from the Islamist hardliners among them are helping the bad guys win.

Reform has to start someplace, and I think agreeing on Islamism as a definition is a tentative first step to that reform. Unfortunately, it's all too susceptible to sabotage, not just from Islamists, but from some of the people here. You're failing to recognize the kind of progress you're fighting for. I find Bosch Faustin's words about WWII, and how we didn't bother with the ridiculous task of ferreting out "radical Nazis," disturbing and ironic. I don't know if people have forgotten or not, but we were horrible in how we went about identifying the enemy here at home. We abandoned every tenet of individual rights our country was founded on in order to rob thousands of innocent, patriotic Americans of their homes, businesses, and properties, and then imprisoned them for years in desert internment camps. No, we didn't do that to German Americans, we did that to Japanese Americans, even though the hostility of Japan's ideology was ultimately no worse than Nazi Germany's.

Which leads me to something else: what kind of deluded hubris is leading anybody here to think that this is a fight to defeat Islam? It's not going to happen. The most we can do is foster reform.

Here's the thing, though... IMO, we, even as non-Muslims, are more able to foster reform than we think. We can't establish reformist measures, but we can encourage them. This is one of those ways.

I don't think it was non-Muslims who came up with "Islamist" (and I could be wrong here; if anyone out there has more info about the origins of the word, please correct me). It appears to have been born in circles of integrated Western Muslims who wanted to identify the Islamist ideology as separate from the way they practice Islam (spiritually, with some token ritualism). And in a religion where there's no commonly recognized authority figure to rebel against, the first step is to create/identify one. Fortunately, the hardliners have already done that by declaring a literal interpretation of the Quran, Hadith, etc., as authoritative. However, the fact remains that hundreds of millions of Muslims don't adhere to it, and Muslims here in the West are starting to seriously discuss reform out of a desire to create official separation from the hardliners. But they're not going to just toss the entire religion and say, "Gee, I guess Islam sucks. Rock on, Jesus."

No. They are holding onto their heritage while developing alternative interpretations of Islam; as a result Islam will undergo a reformation born here in the West, and I think that it will have more in common with the Christian reformation than we suppose. The rebellion against the church had little to do with its structure, and everything to do with the ideology the church used in order to subjugate its believers and compel them to both suffer and perpetrate horrible things in the name of Christianity. People had had enough of church-driven campaigns sweeping through town and conscripting all the men to go fight holy wars. They'd had enough of persecution and witch hunts imposed by holy edicts. They had enough of church and state as one. They saw the greed and corruption and sought to separate from orthodoxy, and reinterpreted their beliefs in order to do so. Not replaced their beliefs, mind you, but reinterpreted.

The same thing is just starting to happen now, here in the West. Integrated Muslims are identifying the offending ideology that's responsible for so much misery, but they're not going to see Islam itself as the culprit, just as Christians didn't see Christianity as the culprit. They saw the church as the culprit, and Christianity continued to flourish throughout the reformation. Islam will be no different when it undergoes its reforms. Reform isn't going to come from the Islamist establishment in the Middle East, but swell from the ground up, from everyday Western Muslims.

Mr. Spencer, I humbly suggest that Islamism.... this grass-roots word, this tiny step... is a sign that your tremendous work is starting to pay off. Relentless criticism of Islam has greatly contributed to a spark of desire for reform, and said criticism should continue. Identifying "Islamism" represents an effort on the part of Muslims to isolate the aggressive jihadist nature of Islam so that they can distance themselves from it without abandoning their religion. By defining what it is they want to get away from, it creates a sort of safe harbor. Going back to what I said about them being stuck between two sets of people vying for their cooperation... they're not going to get any such safe harbor from the Islamists. It's the Islamists who are going to cling to "one Islam." We have to be the bigger people, figuratively speaking. Ten years from now, we could be in a situation in which American Muslims who abhor Sharia and love this country say, "I'm not an Islamist."

It's a step in the right direction.

As for taqiyya, well, that's just tough cookies for us, unfortunately, but we should give ourselves a little credit. It's not that difficult to tell Islamist organizations apart from reformist organizations. I mean, who really thinks that Zhudi Jasser, Irshad Manji and Maajid Nawaz are practicing taqiyya?

Bueller...? Bueller...?

"So it is main stream Islam. The problem is who in Islam has the authority to wage offensive Jihad when there is no caliph. Islamism offer a solution to this problem."

Islamism therefore is a means to establish a Caliphate.

"In this context 'Radical Islamism' refers to the means used to achieve the political goal of Islamism - radical means are violence and terror, but not all Islamists advocate violence."

Actually they all ADVOCATE it. Whether they pursue it is a different issue. Hizb ut Tahrir believes in Coup de Etats, jihad being SOLELY offensive etc. Muslim Brotherhood's leaders proclaim terrorism is part of Islam (al-Qaradawi, Wagdi Ghoneim, Abdullah Azzam and it's symbol all imply a terroristic aspect).

"Hizb ut-Tahrir does not explicitly advocate violence and terrorism, but prepares the intellectual foundation for it by using Qutb's teachings."

http://english.hizbuttahrir.org/images/pdfs/JihadinIslam2.pdf

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/bangladesh-coup-bid-against-sheikh-hasina-foiled/1/170876.html

It advocates for revolutionary dismantlement of governments, as well as offensive jihad. That's advocating violence...

"On the other hand, al Qaeda, also spawned by Qutb'ideology, explicitly promotes violence in the fifty-some nations in which it has a presence. Qutb's brother, Muhammad, taught Osama bin Laden at Abdul Aziz University in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia. Islamic Jihad in Palestine, another Qutb clone, advcocates violence. Iran's Supreme Leader."

It sounds like you are saying Ustadh Sayyid Qutb was solely responsible for bin Ladin and the Iranian Revolution... news flash! He isn't.

Usama bin Ladin was taught by someone who REJECTED Sayyid Qutb's ideology and was AGAINST the Muslim Brotherhood, Ibn Uthaymeen and Abdullah Azzam as well. The only reason he used Qutb was to gain support among Muslims who view him in high status.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTrzCV5TAv0#t=00m06s

Usama bin Ladin mentioning his teacher, Shaykh Ibn Uthaymeen

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kZERlUh-KU

Shaykh Saalih ibn Uthaymeen mentioning his correspondence with Shaykh Usama bin Ladin

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYjwZJYQyzE

Shaykh Ibn Uthaymeen advises to read the books of other contemporaries like Rabee' al-Madkhali to determine their value

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lle7wwCJ1LE

Rabee' al-Madkhali's rejection of these texts

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaMJbNqfrQE

bin Baz: Ibn Uthaymeen's contemporary saying "tear" Qutb's books "apart"!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOnT2a6bS8g

Shaykh Abdullah Azzam affirming "terrorism" in Islam

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElE39YQ73Dk#t=00m55s

Shaykh Abdullah Azzam explains jihad without a ruler (Fard Ayn)


"I think you will have to read Reilly's book and careful consider all his arguments before you outright reject the idea that Islam has adopted some new elements (or revitalized and transformed old ones) to become a political revolutionary ideology, and is no longer the same old Islam that conquered half the world a millennium ago."

Alright, the rest you said was completely true. However, you haven't given me shred of evidence where the original Islam isn't a revolutionary political ideology. If Islam itself isn't, it should be provable. If it is, what's the point of making up "Islamism"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaqx5TewmAg

Muslim Scholars (not Islamists) call for Caliphate and no seperation between religion and state, during the up-spring "Arab Spring"

http://www.hizb.org.uk/what-is-khilafah/the-fardiyyah-obligation-of-working-for-khilafah

The need of "leadership" according to the Sunnah

As for reading Mr. O Reilly's book, I know Arabic, I know Islam and I know Muslims. I don't think it's worth my money if this is the way it's marketed.

God knows best.

Edna:

Maajid Nawaz is practicing Taqiyyah, it's obvious from his knowledge of Arabic, which is sound, but his rejection of clear Islamic laws.

Likewise, the Sharia itself IS ISLAM. Shari'ah is in different forms,

Ibadah- things relating to worship

Hudud- Punishments carried out by the Muslim ruler

Siyasa- Islamic politics

Muamalaat: Transactions, contracts and agreements

The aspects of Sharia that moderate Muslims practice generally relate to transactions and worship. However, as Robert has pointed out, Sharia is a packaged deal.

This is in line with Qur'anic verses:

{إِنِ الْحُكْمُ إِلَّا لِلَّهِ}

"Indeed, the Ruling is for none but Allah." (12:40)

{وَلَا يُشْرِكُ فِي حُكْمِهِ أَحَدًا}

"And He does not share His Ruling with anyone." (18:26)

"U.S. Muslims are Westernized people who truly appreciate Western values."

That's not the issue. It's whether Muslims who adhere to Shari'ah (i.e., Muslims) and those who seek to apply Shari'ah (i.e., Islamists) are very much different.

Regardless of their religiosity, each Muslim rules their life according to the Shari'ah in one form or the other.

"What's actually being demanded is that they condemn their religion outright, and what more could they see in that except a jump from the frying pan into the fire, and a demand that they convert? That's neither fair nor practical."

It may be unfair, but the God of Islam doesn't need to be fair, He created mankind to roast them in hell.

وَلَوْ شَاءَ رَبُّكَ لَجَعَلَ النَّاسَ أُمَّةً وَاحِدَةً ۖ وَلَا يَزَالُونَ مُخْتَلِفِينَ


إِلَّا مَن رَّحِمَ رَبُّكَ ۚ وَلِذَٰلِكَ خَلَقَهُمْ ۗ وَتَمَّتْ كَلِمَةُ رَبِّكَ لَأَمْلَأَنَّ جَهَنَّمَ مِنَ الْجِنَّةِ

وَالنَّاسِ أَجْمَعِينَ

"And if your Lord had willed, He could have made mankind one community; but they will not cease to differ. Except whom your Lord has given mercy, and for that He created them. But the word of your Lord is to be fulfilled that, 'I will surely fill Hell with jinn and men all together."

He also says: {إِنَّ الدِّينَ عِندَ اللَّهِ الْإِسْلَامُ} "Verily, the only religion in the sight of Allah is Islam."

"Which leads me to something else: what kind of deluded hubris is leading anybody here to think that this is a fight to defeat Islam? It's not going to happen. The most we can do is foster reform."

There is no hubris, only reality. Islam is the enemy, Islam must be defeated.

Usama bin Ladin didn't write the Qur'an.

{قَاتِلُوا الَّذِينَ لَا يُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَلَا بِالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ وَلَا يُحَرِّمُونَ مَا حَرَّمَ اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ وَلَا يَدِينُونَ دِينَ الْحَقِّ مِنَ الَّذِينَ أُوتُوا الْكِتَابَ حَتَّىٰ يُعْطُوا الْجِزْيَةَ عَن يَدٍ وَهُمْ صَاغِرُونَ}

"Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled." (9:29)

"I don't think it was non-Muslims who came up with "Islamist" (and I could be wrong here; if anyone out there has more info about the origins of the word, please correct me). It appears to have been born in circles of integrated Western Muslims who wanted to identify the Islamist ideology as separate from the way they practice Islam (spiritually, with some token ritualism). And in a religion where there's no commonly recognized authority figure to rebel against, the first step is to create/identify one."

Why would the word Islamist arise among Westerners? "Islamism" began in Egypt. And yes, the word in Arabic for "Islamism" is الإسلامية, can you guess what the word for "Islamic" is? ... الإسلامية

"No. They are holding onto their heritage while developing alternative interpretations of Islam; as a result Islam will undergo a reformation born here in the West, and I think that it will have more in common with the Christian reformation than we suppose. The rebellion against the church had little to do with its structure, and everything to do with the ideology the church used in order to subjugate its believers and compel them to both suffer and perpetrate horrible things in the name of Christianity. People had had enough of church-driven campaigns sweeping through town and conscripting all the men to go fight holy wars. They'd had enough of persecution and witch hunts imposed by holy edicts. They had enough of church and state as one. They saw the greed and corruption and sought to separate from orthodoxy, and reinterpreted their beliefs in order to do so. Not replaced their beliefs, mind you, but reinterpreted."

Okay, without understanding Islam itself there is no way to address this.

Ijma' among the Sahabah, the early Muslims, in Sunni Islam, and the Imams in Shia Islam, determine the rite of interpretation, because according to Muhammad they are the best people.

(Muhammad said that his family (ahl al-Bayt) was the correct path, but the Sahabah were the "best of generations" after him, which is why Shia and Sunni differ.)

They all gave the Ijma' of interpretation, Islamic law, theology, Hadeeth etc. Once it is established as Ijma' it can't be simply "thrown away".

Although in early Islam, there were varying interpretations initially, like the Zahiri, Thawri and al-Laythi schools of Islamic law. However, they all died away.

The Islam today is that which strictly adheres to the idea of Ijma' based upon the Qur'an and Sunnah. It can't be reformed. It may have been possible if a school of thought like the ones I mentioned above survived. But Islamic schools are based upon teachers teaching their students the methodology of the school. If there are no inheritors, the method of the school is not known, and laws can't be formulated.

"The same thing is just starting to happen now, here in the West. Integrated Muslims are identifying the offending ideology that's responsible for so much misery, but they're not going to see Islam itself as the culprit, just as Christians didn't see Christianity as the culprit. They saw the church as the culprit, and Christianity continued to flourish throughout the reformation. Islam will be no different when it undergoes its reforms. Reform isn't going to come from the Islamist establishment in the Middle East, but swell from the ground up, from everyday Western Muslims."

I suppose it's a good point. However, Muslims do everything according to Sharia. As I said, the Shari'ah was interpreted through the early Muslims. If one were to reject their teachings it's considered apostasy.

In fact, Shia don't accept the Sahaba (but their "infallible Imams") which is why Sunnis in Iraq blow up Shia Mosques.

"Mr. Spencer, I humbly suggest that Islamism.... this grass-roots word, this tiny step... is a sign that your tremendous work is starting to pay off. Relentless criticism of Islam has greatly contributed to a spark of desire for reform, and said criticism should continue. Identifying "Islamism" represents an effort on the part of Muslims to isolate the aggressive jihadist nature of Islam so that they can distance themselves from it without abandoning their religion. By defining what it is they want to get away from, it creates a sort of safe harbor. Going back to what I said about them being stuck between two sets of people vying for their cooperation... they're not going to get any such safe harbor from the Islamists. It's the Islamists who are going to cling to "one Islam." We have to be the bigger people, figuratively speaking. Ten years from now, we could be in a situation in which American Muslims who abhor Sharia and love this country say, "I'm not an Islamist."


"Islamism: The New 'It' Word"

http://www.khilafah.com/index.php/concepts/political-concepts/11849-the-new-qitq-word-islamism

The sixth and most important pillar of Islam makes it an obligatory duty in Islam for every Muslim on earth to fight jihad in the cause of Allah against non-Muslim unbelievers to make Islam supreme, which involves both violent jihad, such as the 9/11 violent jihad attacks, and covert non-violent jihad, such as mass Muslim immigration to the West for the purpose of stealth demographic conquest.

Therefore, per the sixth and most important pillar of Islam, ALL MAINSTREAM ORTHODOX MUSLIMS ON EARTH are jihadists. A tiny minority of them are violent jihadists, while the vast overwhelming majority of them are covert non-violent jihadists, and the few of them that are not jihadists are not Muslims at all, but instead blasphemous apostates that per the dictates of MAINSTREAM ORTHODOX ISLAM must be executed.

Thus, instead of creating new absurd PC multicultural terms like Islamist and Islamic supremacist to obfuscate the reality of Islam and to further confuse the laymen at the same time, how about calling them what they actually are, Muslims, and for that small minority of Muslims in name only that aren't Sharia compliant, just call them what they really are, dissidents from Islam that are trapped in Islamic totalitarian hellholes and silenced because to speak out openly about their apostasy is a capital offense.

Furthermore, stop focusing so much only on Muslim violence to the exclusion of everything else, as covert non-violent jihad relative to violent jihad is employed by the Islamic world against the West astronomically far more prevalently and therefore constitutes an exponentially far greater threat to the peace and security of the West.

Indeed, if we outlaw Islam and ban and reverse mass Muslim immigration with all of its excess baggage ASAP, not only will it virtually eliminate the threat of violent jihad attacks as soon as the last Muslim is shipped out, but more importantly it will also end at the same time the much greater threat of demographic conquest via mass Muslim immigration. Not to mention that the only reason that Muslims can perpetrate violent jihad attacks on the homeland in the first place is because we stupidly allow them in the country to begin with.

Finally, we could take the hundreds of billions of dollars the bloated federal government is wasting today on an annual basis to create a false sense of security so that we can continue accommodating mass Muslim immigration with all of its excess baggage, and use it instead to get our financial house back in order. Best of all we could put the invasive TSA out of business and eliminate the intrusive Patriot Act altogether. In fact, we can no longer afford to continue accommodating mass Muslim immigration with all of its excess baggage because if we continue we will end up becoming the next Greece.

Why must we compromise and sacrifice our privileges, freedoms, and rights and spend hundreds of billions of dollars annually just to accommodate mass Muslim immigration with all of its excess baggage, when we know beforehand that it will turn into an unmitigated disaster like it already has just like clockwork anywhere and everywhere mass Muslim immigration is occurring all over the world? Not only that but it is literally bankrupting us and destroying the American way of life at the same time.

it's conducive to reform in Islam.

Dear Edna,

Islam can't be reformed anymore than Communism can be reformed. As Islam in reality is a supremacist theo-political totalitarian ideology that masquerades as being a religion to dupe the gullible societies it intends to subjugate into a very draconian form of Islamic totalitarianism via the imposition of Sharia for the purpose of stealth demographic conquest to make Islam supreme. Indeed, maybe 10 percent of Islam consist of religion if that much, while the other 90 percent consist of jihad, conquest, and draconian totalitarianism. In fact, Islam is far closer to Communism than it is to being a religion, as just like Communism, Islam seeks world domination, and the end result of Islam, exactly like Communism, is always totalitarianism and lots and lots of misery.

Not to mention that any Muslim that tries to become a Muslim reformer will be instantly recognized as a blasphemous apostate, and as a result will be executed per the dictates of Islam. Indeed, look at all the taqiyya artists like Dr. Zuhdi Jasser claiming to be non-existent moderate Muslims and Muslim reformers, how many followers has Jasser so for managed to reform? The answer is absolutely zero as he is obviously not what he purports to be. Instead, he is really a covert non-violent jihadist and taqiyya artist living in America for the purpose of stealth demographic conquest and making fools out of gullible kafir infidels at the same time.

There are plenty of Muslims here in the U.S. who have no affinity for Sharia and no desire to "Islamize" our nation.

How do you know? Do you have a window into their hearts? Indeed, covert non-violent jihad is non-violent and deceptive by design for one reason, because if it were violent and obvious instead, then it wouldn't work and would be useless.

As a matter of fact, just because a Muslim for all intents and purposes appears to be perfectly peaceful and moderate, it doesn't mean that Muslim is a so-called moderate Muslim. As in all probability that Muslim is a covert non-violent jihadists living peacefully and non-violently in America for the long term purpose of stealth demographic conquest. In any event, per the dictates of mainstream orthodox Islam any Muslim who isn't a jihadist isn't a Muslim at all, but instead a blasphemous apostate that per the dictates of mainstream orthodox Islam must be executed.

Indeed, take a look around the world, in country after country and anywhere and everywhere mass Muslim immigration with all of its excess baggage is occurring today, just like clockwork the vast overwhelming majority of Muslim immigrants have flat out refuse to assimilate and integrate and instead have formed Muslim only enclaves that in time morph into Muslim no-go zones ruled by Sharia as fifth columns and tiny independent statelets within states and in direct contravention to the laws of the states in which they reside.

America isn't immune, as the same exact thing will inevitably happen in America as well, since Muslims never ever migrate to the West or anywhere else for that matter to assimilate and integrate, but instead to eventually subjugate and dominate via the eventual imposition of Sharia for the purpose of stealth demographic conquest to make Islam supreme.

Like people of other faiths often do, these Muslims pick the positive, peaceful bits from their scriptures to focus on (if they focus on Islam much at all), observe major religious holidays, and condemn violent and bigoted acts carried out by all people, including Islamists.

That's a mistaken perception. The word Islam in Arabic means “submission” and the word Muslim in Arabic means “one who submits.” Every Muslin on earth must submit totally, completely, and unconditionally to the will of Allah, where the freedom of conscience is forbidden and where blasphemy and apostasy are capital offenses.

Meanwhile, adherents of faith-based religions are perfectly free to question or even challenge the texts and tenets of their respective religions and to leave their respective religions or to convert to another religion altogether. However in Islam, because the freedom of conscience is forbidden, those same actions, blasphemy in the first instance, and apostasy in the second, are capital offenses. As there is no freedom in Islam because Islam is 100 percent totalitarian.

Indeed, can you please point to faith-based religions that likewise forbid the freedom of conscience and similarly make blasphemy and apostasy capital offenses? Of course, you can't because there aren't any, which irrefutably proves at the same time that is Islam is not a true religion.

In fact, per the dictates of the sixth and most important pillar of Islam, all mainstream orthodox Muslims are jihadists. A tiny minority of them are violent jihadists, while the vast overwhelming majority of them are covert non-violent jihadists, and the few that are not jihadists are not Muslims at all, but instead blasphemous apostates that per the dictates of mainstream orthodox Islam must be executed.

Some have never set foot in a mosque, and the family Quran may sit in a privileged spot on the bookshelves, but it's picked up to be dusted more often than to be read.

May I ask, how do you know all of this, and please don't say because you are friends with Muslims, as Muslims are forbidden from being friends with kafir infidels. Hence, if you claim that you are friends with Muslims, then it will either mean that you are intentionally being deceptive or otherwise your friends are not really Muslims at all, but instead blasphemous apostates.

As is often acknowledged here, many U.S. Muslims are Westernized people who truly appreciate Western values.

Again, that's a naive assumption. How do you know that? Do you have a window into their hearts? Not to mention that any Muslim that appreciates Western values, which are an abomination because they are completely antithetical to Islamic values, isn't a Muslim at all, but instead a blasphemous apostate that per the dictates of Islam should be executed.

Also, how do you know they are not covert non-violent jihadists intentionally deceiving you for the purpose of stealth demographic conquest? Again, please don't say you are friends with Muslims, because again, that would mean that you are either deceptive or that those Muslims are really blasphemous apostates.

On one side you've got nosy imams and co-religionists demanding that you be more pious and adopt a violent jihadist orthodoxy, and on the other side you've got your non-Muslim neighbors demanding that you condemn your religion altogether,

Two things wrong with your scenario; first of all, Muslims live in Muslim only enclaves and later on when they inevitably manifest, Muslim no-go zones, Hence, sorry but they don't have kafir infidel neighbors.

The second problem is stop focusing exclusively only on violent jihad, because covert non-violent jihad relative to violent jihad is employed by the Islamic world against the West astronomically far more prevalently and constitutes an exponentially far greater threat to the peace and security of the West.

As a matter of fact, Muslims living in America as covert non-violent jihadists are very unlikely to turn to violent jihad because that would attract unwanted scrutiny and focus on Islam. Eventually though, when the Muslim population becomes sufficient in numbers relative to the non-Muslim unbeliever population, then they will begin employing more and more violent jihad to speed up the process of stealth demographic conquest.

One of those two sides is going to prevail with the youth of integrated Muslim families here,

Hmm.........where are those non-existent assimilated and integrated Muslim families?

Damn...you are long winded, I give up. Anyway, you should be able to get the drift, and the drift is you have a very long way to go before you understand Islam and Muslims and I hope I helped you to start the process.

Youssef, I think that a lot of Western missiologists are trying to live down the imperialist/colonialist past.

Having lived and worked as a Christian teacher/supply preacher/translator in Taiwan, I know of efforts to "Confucianize" the Gospel. They're pretty fruitless. It seems that those who are drawn to Christ of are attracted by things that Jesus Christ offers which are lacking in the ancestral culture.

I bow in humble gratitude to Almighty God for these new Maghrebi Christians. As a Westerner, I feel deeply that they need our sympathy and prayers. That so many seem to have come to the Messiah after frustration and anguish over the violence inherent in Islam suggests to me that the Holy Spirit may not be all that impressed with the "brilliance" of our attempts to tell Him how to behave, and will bless the Word. May our new brethren among the Amazigh and Arab peoples of northern Africa mature and deepen, and win yet more souls to the Messiah.

One of the best teachers of 'Muhammidianisn', 'Muahammad', 'Mohammidians'. No Mohammad no Quran. Words like Allah and Islam (submission)' existed before Mohammad, the Quran did not. anything else makes it more complicated then it should be.

Edna Pierce wrote:

Step into their shoes for a moment. On one side you've got nosy imams and co-religionists demanding that you be more pious and adopt a violent jihadist orthodoxy, and on the other side you've got your non-Muslim neighbors demanding that you condemn your religion altogether, or else they'll dismiss you as blood-soaked, anti-American theocrats.
...............................................

Well, I might have felt the same way about those born into Nazi households during WWII. The idea that that should have meant that we tone down our condemnation of Fascism seems wrongheaded at best.

It would have been suicidal for free people—and I doubt it would have helped people of conscience living in Fascist societies, either.

More:

We bemoan the lack of Muslims openly coming forward to condemn jihadism, but that's not what is really being asked of them, at least not by many of the commentators here.
...............................................

Actually, many of us would be more than happy if more Muslims were to condemn violent Jihad, the imposition of Shari'ah, and the oppression of Infidels.

If Muslims just want to pray and fast and hold to the—admittedly few—benign aspects of Islam, few Infidels would mind at all.

More:

One of those two sides is going to prevail with the youth of integrated Muslim families here, and those of you who won't even let these good Americans differentiate themselves religiously from the Islamist hardliners among them are helping the bad guys win.
...............................................

The usual argument—that if we dare have the temerity to decry the fact that Islam is out to subjugate and murder us, that we are—somehow!—preventing the supposedly huge silent majority of reformers out there. Surely, they would be quick to act—if *only* we didn't dare say bad things about Islam!

One might reasonably ask where all these reformers were in the long years when few Westerners said much about Islam at all...

In addition, these supposed reformist Muslims are a pretty sensitive lot—all too many Westerners, even today—are ready to pretend that Islam is a "religion of peace".

Surely the tiny handful of vocal anti-Jihadists can't be enough to dissuade genuine reformers? Especially since most Westerners, *including anti-Jihadists*, would be thrilled to see an actual reform movement—rather than mere Taqiyya and whitewash.

More:

I don't think it was non-Muslims who came up with "Islamist" (and I could be wrong here; if anyone out there has more info about the origins of the word, please correct me).
...............................................

Well, you seem to be right—the word "Islamist" *wasn't* coined by non-Muslims.

According to the Oxford English Dictionary It appears to have been first used by hard-line Muslims in the Ottoman Empire in the mid-19th-century, who believed that only a return to the strictest, most orthodox and oppressive forms of Islam would prevent the breakup of the Caliphate.

So, no: the word was *not* created by non-Muslims. But neither was it coined by "moderate" Western Muslims.

In fact, "Islamist" seems to have been coined....by Islamists.

And the term was hardly intended to be perjorative.

More:

Fortunately, the hardliners have already done that by declaring a literal interpretation of the Quran, Hadith, etc., as authoritative. However, the fact remains that hundreds of millions of Muslims don't adhere to it, and Muslims here in the West are starting to seriously discuss reform out of a desire to create official separation from the hardliners.
...............................................

And your evidence for this is....?

More:

...as a result Islam will undergo a reformation born here in the West, and I think that it will have more in common with the Christian reformation than we suppose.
...............................................

There is every reason to believe that the fabled "Islamic reformation" has already occurred, and that it has resulted in the Wahabbis and the Salafists. *These* are the groups that claim to have returned to the pure roots of Islam—and, from everything we know of Islam's violent, sanguinary roots, this does indeed seem likley.

More:

The same thing is just starting to happen now, here in the West. Integrated Muslims are identifying the offending ideology that's responsible for so much misery, but they're not going to see Islam itself as the culprit, just as Christians didn't see Christianity as the culprit. They saw the church as the culprit, and Christianity continued to flourish throughout the reformation. Islam will be no different when it undergoes its reforms. Reform isn't going to come from the Islamist establishment in the Middle East, but swell from the ground up, from everyday Western Muslims.
...............................................

If so, then shouldn't there be a groundswell of mosques in Europe and the United States and the rest of the West preaching a reformed and moderate Islam?

Instead, most of the few genuinely moderate Muslims tend to be less religious—and, as a rule, very, very quiet about their "moderation".

More:

Mr. Spencer, I humbly suggest that Islamism.... this grass-roots word, this tiny step... is a sign that your tremendous work is starting to pay off.
...............................................

If the OED is correct—as it so often is, their research being impeccable—then the term "Islamist", for good or ill, has *nothing* to do with Mr. Spencer's work. Indeed, it would seen to have predated his *birth* by over a hundred years.

More:

Relentless criticism of Islam has greatly contributed to a spark of desire for reform, and said criticism should continue.
...............................................

Really? It appeared you were decrying just this criticism, as it—supposedly—prevented reformist Muslims from being able to carry out said reform...

More:

Ten years from now, we could be in a situation in which American Muslims who abhor Sharia and love this country say, "I'm not an Islamist."
...............................................

Well, then, they should go to it. Robert Spencer does not own this phrase—he doesn't even control how it is used by all anti-Jihadists, as these two threads have shown.

But considering how quiet "moderate" Muslims have been, and the paucity of any sort of reform ten years after 9/11, I'm not sure what is likely to magically happen in the next ten years...

More:

As for taqiyya, well, that's just tough cookies for us, unfortunately, but we should give ourselves a little credit. It's not that difficult to tell Islamist organizations apart from reformist organizations. I mean, who really thinks that Zhudi Jasser, Irshad Manji and Maajid Nawaz are practicing taqiyya?
...............................................

Irshad Manji has implied that the Ft. Hood massacre had nothing to do with Islam—sounds a lot like Taqiyya to me.

Maajid Nawaz set up the The Quilliam Foundation with Mohamed 'Ed' Husain and Rashaad Zaman Ali, former members of the United Kingdom branch of the international Islamist group Hizb ut-Tahrir.

The Quilliam Foundation has opposed Geert Wilders' warnings about Islam, and has claimed that "Muslims are not a threat to Europe and its values." They have argued against any sort of anti-terrorism profiling. Hmmmmm.......

And Abdullah Quilliam was a British "revert" who aggressively worked to spread Islam in his native land. He didn't exactly appear to be a "reformer", either.

Now, Zhudi Jasser may indeed be sincere in his "moderation"—he certainly appears to be. But he is also so alone in his beliefs that he was not only thrown out of his mosque for his reformist beliefs, but *he has been unable to find another mosque that will let him join*.

His main audience seems to be hopeful Infidels, *not* his fellow Muslims—so I'm not sure we can expect much from his quarter, no matter how earnest he may be...

Well, you seem to be right—the word "Islamist" *wasn't* coined by non-Muslims.

According to the Oxford English Dictionary It appears to have been first used by hard-line Muslims in the Ottoman Empire in the mid-19th-century, who believed that only a return to the strictest, most orthodox and oppressive forms of Islam would prevent the breakup of the Caliphate.

So, no: the word was *not* created by non-Muslims. But neither was it coined by "moderate" Western Muslims.

In fact, "Islamist" seems to have been coined....by Islamists.


gravenimage,

If you’re still reading this, would it be possible for you to post the OED entry saying that “Islamist” is a term coined by Muslims? ‘-ism’ and ‘-ist’ are western European language suffixes of Greek origin. It would seem odd to me if Muslims in the Ottoman Empire – especially self-proclaimed Islamic purists – spontaneously applied a name to themselves that employed English or French suffixes. I suppose anything’s possible, but it seems unlikely, and I’d be interested in seeing what OED says about it. Everything I’m seeing on this indicates that the term emerged in French academia in the mid-1700s simply as a term for Islam as a whole, and eventually the ‘ism’ or ‘ist’ got dropped. It also doesn’t seem to have taken on the connotation among some that we’re discussing in this thread until quite recently.

out of context(TM) wrote:

If you’re still reading this...
.................................

Just barely—this article is about to disappear into the archives—it is the very last piece still displayed on the home page as I write.

More:

...would it be possible for you to post the OED entry saying that “Islamist” is a term coined by Muslims? ‘-ism’ and ‘-ist’ are western European language suffixes of Greek origin. It would seem odd to me if Muslims in the Ottoman Empire – especially self-proclaimed Islamic purists – spontaneously applied a name to themselves that employed English or French suffixes. I suppose anything’s possible, but it seems unlikely, and I’d be interested in seeing what OED says about it.
.................................

Well, you're quite right. I had assumed it was a translation—although we are shaving things fairly closely between "Islam" and "Islamism", admittedly—and likely even more so in translation.

I am unable to find the direct link to the OED—I believe it is subscription-only, if I remember correctly. I only have the second edition in book form, which I do not believe lists the word. So, this was my source:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Timeline_of_Islamist_militancy#Further_to_what_the_OED_says

Now, admittedly, Wikipedia is not always the most reliable source.

The ultimate source appears to be John Esposito's "Islamism" entry in the Oxford Dictionary of Islam—and in turn, *he* often whitewashes Islam himself. So, this may be accurate, or he may have an agenda.

More:

Everything I’m seeing on this indicates that the term emerged in French academia in the mid-1700s simply as a term for Islam as a whole, and eventually the ‘ism’ or ‘ist’ got dropped. It also doesn’t seem to have taken on the connotation among some that we’re discussing in this thread until quite recently.
.................................

In researching my reply to you, I ran across this:

"The term Islamism first appeared in French in the mid-eighteenth century. But it did not refer to the modern ideological use of Islam, which had not yet come into being. Rather, it was a synonym for the religion of the Muslims, which was then known in French as mahométisme, the religion professed and taught by the Prophet Muhammad."

http://www.meforum.org/541/coming-to-terms-fundamentalists-or-islamists

This sounds like exactly what you were saying.

Well, I certainly might be wrong, in whole or in part—Mea Culpa. Alas, it would hardly be the first time.

In any case, though, it seems the basic point I was making to Edna Pierce was correct—"Islamist" is *not* a term coined in recent years by "moderate" Western Muslims to differentiate themselves from their more vicious, orthodox coreligionists.

But I really appreciate your post, Out of Context—and I will try to look further into the origins of these terms.

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