Germany: Terror suspect misunderstood Islam, says he went to Afghanistan "to live life according to Sharia law and fight jihad"

Ahmad Wali Siddiqui is quite a severe Misunderstander of Islam, since we all know that Sharia is a perfectly benign thing, completely compatible with the U.S. Constitution and absolutely nothing like the hellish legal code that oppresses women and non-Muslims (the few that remain) in Afghanistan. And we all know, on pain of charges of "Islamophobia," that jihad is an interior spiritual struggle, or, at best, a struggle for self-defense, and has nothing to do with terrorism. Somehow Ahmad Wali Siddiqui misunderstood all this, and even more unbelievable, he apparently found quite a few Muslims who were entirely in sync with his point of view. What a shock! How will the learned analysts explain this? Mr. Esposito? Mr. Ernst? Anyone? Anyone?

"Terror suspect went to Afghanistan to fight jihad," by Claudia Isabel Rittel for the Associated Press, March 20:

KOBLENZ, Germany (AP) — A German-Afghan man whose information prompted terrorism warnings across Europe in 2010 told a court Tuesday he traveled to the Afghan border region with the intention of fighting there, not of returning home to carry out attacks.

Ahmad Wali Siddiqui told the Koblenz state court in the second day of his trial that he and a group of others bought iPhones, Sony laptops and other electronics on credit in Germany, then sold them on eBay to fund their 2009 trip to Pakistan and Afghanistan.

"We wanted to fly there to live life according to (Islam's) Sharia law and fight jihad," he said, using the Arabic word for holy war. "We didn't want to ever return."

The 37-year-old faces a possible 10-year sentence, if convicted of membership in a terrorist organization....

Though he never specifically admitted to being a member of either terrorist group, he told the court he had gone to the region with the intention of joining al-Qaida but first encountered two German-speaking members of the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan, so went with them instead.

He did acknowledge, however, he also knew exactly what the IMU was.

"Naturally we knew that this was a jihad group, nothing else," he said. "They make propaganda and fight against Americans."....

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Damn, Ahmed is sure an islamophobe and a racist mofo.

Love those "anyone" digs Robert..Heard from any of those "anyones" yet? No? Ha! Didn't think so..

Pat Condell's latest..Thanks Robert..Marisol..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INll6Y5iqbM&feature=player_embedded

"says he went to Afghanistan "to live life according to Sharia law and fight jihad"

Smart guy. Isn't that exactly what the American and Nato forces have been doing for the last decade? Fighting jihad and submit to the Sharia law - that is.

Maybe he meant - fighting IN THE jihad in the way of Allah - and that makes him definitely look suspicious. ;-)

A German-Afghan man? The fact that there are any German-Afghan men points to part of the problem.

Now, now, Wellington, are you suggesting that Germany not be endlessly inundated with traditional "indigenous" Germans of Afghan cultural descent?

/Sarc fully off now.

Indeed Wellington is correct and illustrates a general western problem. Liberal guilt to accept all immigrants as equally inclined to assimilate and contribute to the host country culture, more specifically representative of Europe over the U.S at the moment, but that moment is fleeting and passing, actually aids and abets Islamic expansion directly.

Islam's culture, because in reality once you go "black... black rock" that is, you can never come back, uniquely prohibits assimilation and contribution to any non-Islamic host culture. Allah strictly forbids it. That's not my opinion, but rather the explicit words of the Qur'an.

Europe is slowly and surely seemingly coming to that realization. The U.S. is further down the list in this regard, but unless a change in course occurs, hence a majority collective perception that Islam is certainly many things BUT a religion of peace, coupled with the irrefutable fact that no country can maintain its governmental and cultural sovereignty under a system of accepted unchecked and endless immigration from exports of a foundationally non-western ideology, the demographic expansion of Islam will continue apace in our current reality.

"We didn't want to ever return."

So why did you?

"So why did you?"

Probably discovered drones don't submit...

Actually, I applaud Ahmad Wali Siddiqui for what he did. Instead of hypocritically sitting in Koblenz and fantacizing about destroying the West while enjoying all its benefits, he actually put his money where he mouth was and moved to Afghanistan. In fact, I don't agree w/ them arresting him and putting him in a nice, cushy jail in Deutschland. Instead, he should have been allowed to go to Afghanistan, and fight Jihad. Sooner or later, he'd have been killed either by 'NATO' troops or by different Afghan factions (who, like Iraq, will likely return to war once 'NATO' troops are out.)

If only all Muslims in the West followed his example - go off to Afghanistan/Somalia/Saudi Arabia/Syria/Iraq/Bahrein/Pakistan and fight jihad, or live under Shariah. Everybody would be better off.

Joke of the night:

What exactly is a "Misunderstander of Islam" ?

Punchline-

A peaceful Muslim. One who is unwilling to "live life according to Sharia law and fight jihad" like that "true believing" Muslim mentioned above.

>>>

We ex-Muslims living with Islam's formal and informal death penalty for apostasy know for certain that Islam is evil both in-part and on the whole.

The Myth of Islamic Purity, Part.2

Introduction:

The Muslims love to claim that Islam is a religion of purity and the one and only perfect religion on earth. We ex-Muslims know better and are not afraid to speak the terrible truth about Muhammad and his Islam. This series of articles will make it obvious that such claims of Islamic purity are purely laughable and utter nonsense.

When rational people objectively study the Islamic texts (the Quran, hadiths and Sirat), it becomes clear that Islam is in reality nothing more than the cult of a murderous mad man. Islam is without doubt the most hateful, intolerant, violence prone religion the world has ever known. Only a liar or a fool would attempt to dispute this fact.

The Notion of Islamic Purity:

It is a ridiculous notion to think that Islam is a perfect religion. The “Islamic scriptures of Muhammad” contain in large part a litany of mankind at his very worst. Islam is the darkest and most impure of all the religions that mankind has invented to explain the mysteries of our existence here on earth.

Claims of Islamic purity:

The question at hand is whether Islam is a pure or an impure religion.

In truth, Islam does not even qualify to be called a religion. Islam should simply be known as the cult of Muhammad. To this very day, those who choose to apostatize from Islam are to be put to death. And this will never change, due to the fact that such demands are enshrined in the canonical Islamic scriptures and law.

Muhammad’s Quran and Sunnah are overflowing with such violence – violence against both Muslims and non-Muslims alike. Ironically, the only pure thing about Islam is the fact that its founder was a pure narcissistic psychopath. Islam is as much a pure religion of peace and justice as gold is worthless.

Muhammad’s Islam is so intrinsically evil and unjust that it demands that the entire world to submit to its beliefs or to its rule. Islam is so evil that it demands all who refuse to convert to Islam must live as the legal and social inferiors called dhimmis within the Islamic state and pay the Islamic poll tax, the jizya.

Islam is so impure in fact, and such a brutal and savage religion of war, that it is a necessity for all able bodied Muslim believers to wage jihad (Islamic holy war) against non-Muslims and force them to either submit to the Islamic religion or pay the above mentioned jizya. The demand for non-Muslims to either convert to Islam or pay the jizya is derived from the particularly evil verse 9:29 of the Quran., as quoted below:

009.029
Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

It is worth noting that all “true believing Muslims” must consider the passage above to be the actual words of God and obey them and act upon them. It doesn’t take a genius to understand that these words could not possibly be the words of an infinitely wise and just creator. These words are nothing more than the demands of an evil mad man. Muhammad was not merely a charlatan – he was the most detestable human being to have ever walked the earth. It is time that the Muslims face these indisputable facts and begin to back away from Muhammad’s insane cult of death and destruction.

Part 1 of this series of articles addressed the contradictory treatment of women in Islam. Part 2 is addressing the appalling treatment that the Islamic texts prescribe for non-Muslim peoples. Islam is full of Muhammad’s cruel lies and contradictions. The passages below, taken from Islam’s core religious texts, clearly show how evil the cult of Muhammad’s Islam really is.

It is absurd that in the year 2012 Muslims still unquestioningly believe every single thing that their mad prophet said. Islam definitely meets the criteria of a typical cult when one observes how the Muslims continue to adore and obey their deranged prophet regardless of the crimes he committed or his obvious insanity. Again, as the passages below prove, claims of Islamic purity are ridiculous to say the least. The words below are nothing short of evil:

098.002
A messenger (Muhammad) from Allah, rehearsing scriptures kept pure and holy:

002.191
Slay them wherever you find them. Drive them out of the places from which they drove you out. Idolatry is more grievous than bloodshed. But do not fight them within the precincts of the Holy Mosque unless they attack you there; if they attack you put them to the sword. This shall the unbelievers be rewarded.

008.012 I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.

008.060 Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly.

009.005 So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

009.123 O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).

047.004 When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield strike off their heads and, when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly. Then grant them their freedom or take a ransom from them, until war shall lay down her burdens. Thus shall you do. Had God willed, He could Himself have punished them; (but He has ordained it thus) that He might test you, the one by the other.

048.028 He it is Who sent His Messenger with the guidance and the true religion that He may make it prevail over all the religions; and Allah is enough for a witness.

048.029 Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves.

066.009 O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey’s end.

* Mad Moe was an insane cult leader. He made up the answers to any and all of the questions posed to him by his brain-washed followers and gained total control over their lives:

Hadith, Sahih Bukhari 2.23.441:
Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah’s Apostle said, “Every child is born with a true faith of Islam (i.e. to worship none but Allah Alone) but his parents convert him to Judaism, Christianity or Magainism, as an animal delivers a perfect baby animal. Do you find it mutilated?” Then Abu Huraira recited the holy verses: “The pure Allah’s Islamic nature (true faith of Islam) (i.e. worshipping none but Allah) with which He has created human beings. No change let there be in the religion of Allah (i.e. joining none in worship with Allah). That is the straight religion (Islam) but most of men know, not.” (30.30)

Hadith, Sahih Muslim 041.6985:
Abu Huraira reported Allah’s messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.

Hadith, Sahih Bukhari 4.52.196:
Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah ‘s Apostle said, ” I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,’ and whoever says, ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,’ his life and property will be saved by me except for Islamic law, and his accounts will be with Allah, (either to punish him or to forgive him.)”

Hadith, Bukhari 9.92.461:
Narrated Ubaidullah: Ibn ‘Abbas said, “Why do you ask the people of the scripture about anything while your Book (Quran) which has been revealed to Allah’s Apostle is newer and the latest? You read it pure, undistorted and unchanged, and Allah has told you that the people of the scripture (Jews and Christians) changed their scripture and distorted it, and wrote the scripture with their own hands and said, ‘It is from Allah,’ to sell it for a little gain. Does not the knowledge which has come to you prevent you from asking them about anything? No, by Allah, we have never seen any man from them asking you regarding what has been revealed to you!”

* Of course Muhammad did all of the things listed below:

Hadith, Bukhari 4.53.403:
Narrated ‘Abdullah bin ‘Amr: Allah’s Apostle said, “Whoever has (the following) four characteristics will be a pure hypocrite: “If he speaks, he tells a lie; if he gives a promise, he breaks it, if he makes a covenant he proves treacherous; and if he quarrels, he behaves in a very imprudent evil insulting manner (unjust). And whoever has one of these characteristics, has one characteristic of a hypocrite, unless he gives it us.”

* Most Muslims do not know about all of the crazy things that Muhammad said:

Hadith, Sahih Muslim 002.0502:
‘A’isha reported: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be npon him) said: Ten are the acts according to fitra: clipping the moustache, letting the beard grow, using the tooth-stick, snuffing water in the nose, cutting the nails, washing the finger joints, plucking the hair under the armpits, shaving the pubes and cleaning one’s private parts with water. The narrator said: I have forgotten the tenth, but it may have been rinsing the mouth.

Hadith, Sahih Muslim 002.0504:
Salman reported that it was said to him: Your Apostle (may peace be upon him) teaches you about everything, even about excrement. He replied: Yes, he has forbidden us to face the Qibla at the time of excretion or urination, or cleansing with right hand or with less than three pebbles, or with dung or bone.

Hadith, Sahih Muslim 002.0511:
Abu Qatada reported it from his father: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: None of you should hold penis with his right hand while urinating, or wipe himself with his right hand in privy and should not breathe into the vessel (from which he drinks).


Here is a recent statement from a group of Bangladeshi apostates living in the UK explaining the reasons why they have abandoned Islam:

"One who claims to be a messenger of God is expected to live a saintly life. He must not be given to lust, he must not be a sexual pervert, and he must not be a rapist, a highway robber, a war criminal, a mass murderer or an assassin. One who claims to be a messenger of God must have a superior character. He must stand above the vices of the people of his time. Yet Muhammad’s life is that of a gangster godfather. He raided merchant caravans, looted innocent people, massacred entire male populations and enslaved the women and children. He raped the women captured in war after killing their husbands and told his followers that it is okay to have sex with their captives (Qur'an 33:50). He assassinated those who criticized him and executed them when he came to power and became de facto despot of Arabia. Muhammad was bereft of human compassion. He was an obsessed man with his dreams of grandiosity and could not forgive those who stood in his way...

The statement continues,

Muhammad was a narcissist, like Hitler, Saddam or Stalin. He was astute and knew how to manipulate people, but his emotional intelligence was less evolved than that of a 6-year-old child. He simply could not feel the pain of others. He brutally massacred thousands of innocent people and pillaged their wealth. His ambitions were big and as a narcissist he honestly believed he is entitled to do as he pleased and commit all sorts of crimes and his evil deeds are justified."

>>>

Ex-Muslim Ali Sina's ongoing challenge to Muslims can be found over at Faith Freedom.org:

THE CHALLENGE

If you do not like this site and want me to remove it, instead of acting as a bully or as a victim, disprove my charges against Muhammad logically. Not only will I remove the site, I will publicly announce that Islam is a true religion. I will also pay

$50,000 U.S. dollars

to anyone who can disprove any of the dozen of the accusations that I have made against Muhammad. I accuse Muhammad of being:

a narcissist
a misogynist
a rapist
a pedophile
a lecher
a torturer
a mass murderer
a cult leader
an assassin
a terrorist
a madman
a looter

...You simply can’t disprove them because they are reported in Islamic sources and as such they are as good as confession...

http://www.faithfreedom.org/the-challenge/the-challenge/

Robert, your ‘wit’ cannot get you past this one. I admit, I used to read your blog with an open mind, but now I see that you are a RACIST! You are trying to blame all Muslms for the crimes of a few… by some standard. Never mind that Islam is not a race. I will say what I want! Oh, and, um, the Last Sermon!, or something…

(Psst: Honest Ibe: you did say the check was in the mail, right?)

Nice one. Just include the sarc tag next time lest you draw a flood of ire.

Regards.

Infidel Pride

good comment.

You wrote - "I don't agree w/ them arresting him and putting him in a nice, cushy jail in Deutschland. Instead, he should have been allowed to go to Afghanistan, and fight Jihad. Sooner or later, he'd have been killed either by 'NATO' troops or by different Afghan factions (who, like Iraq, will likely return to war once 'NATO' troops are out.)

If only all Muslims in the West followed his example - go off to Afghanistan/Somalia/Saudi Arabia/Syria/Iraq/Bahrein/Pakistan and fight jihad, or live under Shariah. Everybody would be better off."

My thoughts exactly.

I'm fine with thugs like this swanning off back to dar al Islam - let 'em all go, good riddance - so long as, once our Authorities find out where they've gone and have a reasonable suspicion as to why, well, phut goes their citizenship in and passports from our free countries, and they are NEVER allowed back inside our borders.

I clicked on the link and read the whole article.

He seems to have fallen out with the IMU pretty quickly. It's very telling - he's afraid of, and mistreated by, his dear brother Muslims...

So he broke with the IMU and kept going, hooking up with Al-Q eventually.

From the article:

:According to the indictment, after he linked up with al-Qaida **he received orders to return to Germany to become part of a European network of the terrorist organization** {my emphasis - dda}, prosecutors said...

"Instead he was captured by U.S. troops in Afghanistan in July 2010...".

And then he was taken back to Germany to be tried...

Stupid move.

What should have happened, if they weren't prepared to shoot him, was that once he had been extensively and intensively interrogated, he should have been told that his German passport was cancelled and his German citizenship null and void; that he would not be allowed henceforward to enter *any* free non-Muslim country.

His dna sample, retinal scan, dental details, voiceprint, fingerprints, footprints, and all other identifying particulars having been collected, to be forwarded to all kafir authorities in order to be able to identify him in future *should* he try to re-enter dar al Harb or succeed in so doing, he should have been tossed back into the Afghan Muslim hellpits in the clothes he stood up in, to eat or be eaten.

DDA

If they could release the Gitmo detainees and turn them over to Qatar, they could have thrown him in w/ them - send him to Qatar, and let his fate be determined b/w the Taliban, the Afghan and Qatari regimes.

French killer:

"The man inside the bungalow where the operation is taking place has claimed affiliation to al-Qaeda, Interior Minister Claude Gueant told reporters."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17446999

And CNN blanks out that possibility:They said they were looking for Neo Nazis. Muslims were not suspected. Just couldnt be.

The European Union’s Foreign Policy Chief, Catherine Ashton,Compares Toulouse Murders to Gaza Children

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/153936#.T2lq3sWPXSd

Gaza children are being caught by the hair by Israelis and shot in the head? Thats news to me

9:5 "Kill the unbelievers (in the Oneness of Allah, mushrikun)
wherever ye find them"

http://newstime.co.nz/jihad-is-the-highest-level-in-islam.html

ISLAM IS A TERRORIST ORGANIZATION 3:151, 59:2, 8:12, 8:59,60

http://schnellmann.org/islam-is-terror.html

3:151 "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah,
for which He had sent no authority; their abode will be the Fire;
and evil is the home of the wrong-doers!"

59:2 "...cast terror into their hearts (“People of the Book” i.e. Christians & Jews)"

8:12 "...I (Pedo Allah 65:4) will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers..."
(and beheadings + finger amputating)

8:60 "...to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah
(i.e. "Unbelievers" 8:59)"

The prophet of Islam boasted,
"I have been made victorious with terror"
Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 22

61:9 “…that He (Muhammad) may make it conqueror of all religion however much idolaters may be averse”

9:33 “…prevail over all religions”

8:39 + 2:193 “…and religion should be only for Allah

ALLAH WILL CONQUER AND DOMINATE THE WORLD

8:17 "You killed them not ... but Allah killed them"

Narrated Abu Dhar “… I asked the Prophet [Muhammad], “What is the best deed?” He replied, “To believe in Allah and to fight for His Cause
Sahih Bukhari Volume 3, Book 46, Number 694

http://newstime.co.nz/allah-will-conquer-the-world.html

These scum seem to particularly enjoy killing kuffar children. Remember Beslan. It's only a matter of time until this happens here: http://crombouke.blogspot.com/2010/01/beslan-child-rape-torture-enforced.html

During the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan,

do you think the US government wanted muslims to jihad against the Soviets ?

and if so , why ?

What a surprise, the terrorist in France, that killed soldiers and jews, turned out to be a member of the religion of peace. Hahaha... oh wow, and the media again tried to divert attention from that fact by saying that suspect was a neo-nazi or had some other non-muslim connection. Tsk, tsk, tsk...

there are extremists in every country, group, ideology, race and religion.

If you see how many "loving" parents on a regular basis are killing their own children in this country, you will know what I mean

Peter, aka 45ch, Mohammedan dementor and sand-thrower, above, engages in a classic piece of tu quoque - the favourite tactic of Mohammedans when 'debating' - by mentioning non-Muslim parents who kill their children.

What he hopes we won't think about is the fact that in dar al Islam Mohammedan parents and grandparents have power of life and death over their children - they will not be subject to retaliation, if they kill their offspring - whereas in the modern Western world (and in many places influenced thereby), the killing of your child is defined as murder.

In dar al Islam, teenage girls are routinely killed by their families - especially, their fathers, uncles and brothers - as punishment for perceived or rumoured or, sometimes, actual (however timid) rebellion against the sharia order of things.

I vividly remember the story, reported in a British newspaper, of a girl, daughter of a British non-Muslim woman and Saudi Muslim father, who was abducted by her father after her parents' divorce, and taken off to Saudi Arabia, where her father severely abused her. On one occasion she ran away from him and went to the police. The Saudi police sternly sent her right back to her abusive father, telling her, 'he's your father and he can kill you if he wants to". (She was lucky; her deadbeat dad needed her to work so he could live off her wages; and eventually she was able, somehow, to escape).

There is NO policeman in the western world who would say that to a terrified abused child who came to them seeking refuge. NO western law enforcement officer or judge would tell a child or a teenager that their father had a right to kill them.

"We wanted to fly there to live life according to (Islam's) Sharia law and fight jihad," he said, using the Arabic word for holy war. "We didn't want to ever return."
.....................................

Who would *ever* want to live in civilized Germany when you can live in a violent Islamic hell-hole like Afghanistan? And remember, it'll just get better once the Americans and the rest of those filthy Infidels leave and the "Noble" Taliban return...

Dumbledoresamry,

You stated " the killing of your child is defined as murder."

Since you admit that Americans are capable of killing and killing their own children, what makes them do such a horrendous thing ?

"Peter" wrote, replying to Dumbledore's Army:

Since you admit that Americans are capable of killing and killing their own children, what makes them do such a horrendous thing ?
.........................

I believe the question is why Islam *doesn't* consider the murder of one's own children—or one's children's children—to be a horrendous thing?

gravenimage,

You stated : " why Islam *doesn't* consider the murder of one's own children—or one's children's children—to be a horrendous thing?"

do you have a koranic reference that states that muslim children can be murdered ?

"Peter" wrote:

You stated : " why Islam *doesn't* consider the murder of one's own children—or one's children's children—to be a horrendous thing?"

do you have a koranic reference that states that muslim children can be murdered ?
..................................

The Sharia Law Manual, Umdat 'al Salik (Reliance of the Traveller), under section 01.2, it says "Not subject to retaliation is the killing of one's children or one's children's children". See #4, below:

The following are not subject to retaliation:

-1- a child or insane person, under any circumstances (O: whether Muslim or non-Muslim.

-2- a Muslim for killing a non-Muslim;

-3- a Jewish or Christian subject of the Islamic state for killing an apostate from Islam (O: because a subject of the state is under its protection, while killing an apostate from Islam is without consequences);

-4- a father or mother (or their fathers or mothers) for killing their offspring, or offspring's offspring;

-5- nor is retaliation permissible to a descendant for (A: his ancestor's) killing someone whose death would otherwise entitle the descendant to retaliate, such as when his father kills his mother
....

The "Reliance of the Traveller" is authorized by Al Azhar in Egypt, the highest Sunni authority.

Nasty stuff. In addition, one can find this in the laws of all too many Muslim states. When a Saudi-British girl was kidnapped by her Muslim father, he regularly beat her horribly. One day, she was able to escape and make her way to the police.

The Saudi police told this poor girl that her father could do anything he wanted with her, *including kill her*.

Gravenimage,

You stated : " The Sharia Law Manual, Umdat 'al Salik (Reliance of the Traveller), under section 01.2,"

So you are saying the koran or Muhammad did not say that children can be murdered ?

ladies and gentlemen

'Peter' despite his western name and any lies he may tell about his background, is a Mohammedan dementor intent on throwing sand in order to protect Islam.

Ignore him.

He used to call himself '45ch' and before that, 'lovevrybody' and he argues like a robot.

He argues like a Mohammedan.

I have read the writings of many a Mohammedan boggart and dementor in the archives here, and his style and method of 'argument' is the same.

Tu quoque and turnspeak and continual attempts to press 'guilt buttons'.

Denial.

Outright lies.

Half-truths and twistings.

And weaselwording.

He insists that there must be a Quranic reference for killing of children.

Well, I seem to recall a Quranic story about 'the green man', which involves the killing of someone's child.

See this thread and scroll down to the excellent comment - indeed a mini-essay on the subject - by our regular contributor Kinana of Khaybar, who has been doing his homework:

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/02/palestinian-authority-gives-pardons-or-suspended-sentences-for-honor-murders.html


Kinana of Khaybar | February 17, 2012 7:34 AM | Reply
There remains a substantial minority of Muslims who approve of honor killings, even in countries such as Turkey:

http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/025383.php
March 25, 2009
Substantial percentage of Turkish population "support" honor killings

26% support honour killings

“the study also showed that 26.2 percent of the parents and 25.9 percent of the students said they support such killings, although 64 percent of all respondents said those who committed such a crime should be punished...”
-----------------------

A common apologist claim is that the Quran forbids honour killings, because it forbids killing of those who don't fight. This claim is misleading, because the Quran allows a major exception, allowing killing for "a just cause" (25:68, 17:33, 6:151) or for "spreading mischief" (fasad, 5:32-33) in society. Thus the Quran leaves open the question of whether some kinds of honor killing are permitted. As Robert has noted before, the story of al-Khidr (in Sura 18) suggests that there are cases where Allah approves of killing children who might grow up to commit disbelief or rebellion. The Quran is not sufficiently clear on the issue of whether Muslims are permitted to kill children who transgress Islam through apostasy or sexual impropriety, etc. It does not, in fact, say that Muslims can't kill their own children who apostatize or significantly transgress Islam.

Another apologist claim is that Muhammad in the Hadith did not permit the killing of children, and that this policy should in effect prohibit honor killings as well. This is only partly correct.

'Muhammad did prohibit Muslims from killing children, but he allowed exceptions, including this one which related back to the story of al-Khidr (or al-Khadir, "The Green Man") in Quran Sura 18:

"This tradition has been narrated by the same authority (Yazid b. Hurmus) through a different chain of transmitters with the following difference in the elucidation of one of the points raised by Najda in his letter to Ibn Abas: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) used not to kill the children, so thou shouldst not kill them unless you could know what Khadir had known about the child he killed, or you could distinguish between a child who would grow up to be a believer (and a child who would grow up to be a non-believer), so that you killed the (prospective) non-believer and left the (prospective) believer aside." (Sahih Muslim, Book #019, Hadith #4457)

This is a remarkable hadith. It says, don't kill children, unless you could know what Al-Khidr knows, namely that the child will grow up to be a disbeliever. Apologists might claim that since no one knows what Al-Khidr knows (unless they are guided by Allah), then no Muslim can simply take it upon himself or herself to kill a child.

' But another obvious interpretation is also available: A parent can know when a child grows up to be a disbeliever when that, in fact, occurs, such as a child that grows up only to apostatize from Islam, or engages in such transgressions of Islam that amount to blasphemy or apostasy.

'Note that this interpretation is available precisely because Muhammad made it so: In other hadiths he ordered that the penalty for apostasy is death.

In Islamic law, an apostate past the age of puberty can be put to death.

'The underlying problem here is the value system laid out in the Quran and Hadith.

'Together these texts, which inform Islamic law and custom, state that the following must be put to death:

-Adulterers
-Homosexuals
-Apostates
-A Muslim woman who has a voluntary sexual relationship or marriage with a non-Muslim man

In addition, fornication is punished by 100 lashes (Q 24:2) plus one year of banishment from the society.

The very severe penalties prescribed in traditional Islam for these sin-crimes do overlap considerably with the kinds of so-called honour killings and honour violence carried out by Muslims.

Honour killings persist in Islamic societies in part because the Islamic value system promoted by the Quran and Hadith is so similar to the honour traditions that encourage such violence and killing.

Another apologetic line: Islam forbids vigilante punishment and killing. Again, this is only partly true. In the Hadith, a man killed the woman who was the mother of his children. The reason he killed her was because allegedly she repeatedly transgressed Islam by insulting Muhammad. Here's the hadith:

Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 38, Number 4348
“Narrated Abdullah Ibn Abbas: A blind man had a slave-mother who used to abuse the Prophet (p.b.u.h) and disparage him. He forbade her but she did not stop. He rebuked her but she did not give up her habit. One night she began to slander the Prophet (p.b.u.h) and abuse him. So he took a dagger, placed it on her belly, pressed it, and killed her. A child who came between her legs was smeared with the blood that was there. When the morning came, the prophet (p.b.u.h) was informed about it. He assembled the people and said: I adjure by Allah the man has done this action and adjure him by my right to him that he should stand up. Jumping over the necks of the people and trembling the man stood up. He sat before the prophet (p.b.u.h) and said: Apostle of Allah! I am here master; she used to abuse you and disparage you. I forbade her but she did not stop, and I rebuked her, but she did not abandon her habit. I have two sons like pearls from her, and she was my companion. Last night she began to abuse and disparage you. So I took a dagger, put it at her belly and pressed it till I killed her. Thereupon the prophet (p.b.u.h) said: Oh be witness, no retaliation is payable for her blood”."

In other words, Islam permits vigilante justice if the vigilante punishes someone who transgresses Islam, in this case by disrespecting Muhammad.

In summary, while the Islamic texts do not state explicitly that Muslims can kill their children who significantly transgress Islamic rules, they don't clearly say they can't kill such disbelieving or rebellious children, either.

Moreover, the fact that the Islamic texts indicate that apostasy, blasphemy, and sexual impropriety are all grave offenses warranting severe physical punishments including killing, shows how consistent traditional Islam is with the honour traditions associated with it.

Notions of strong parental control, and dress codes for young women, stated in the Quran and Hadith, also contribute to this idea that the parents must police their children, especially their young women.

As Robert noted, such notions of honour are incorporated directly into Islamic law and the laws of some Muslim countries today in a way that validates the "honour" traditions."



Dumble,

You stated : " Well, I seem to recall a Quranic story about 'the green man', which involves the killing of someone's child.".

Is it the same type of verse which could be related to the bible : Matthew 15:1-7

where Jesus asked why the Jewish leaders were not obeying the bible regarding the stoning to death of disobedient children ?

Liberal muslims would interpret what Jesus said as a historical event and not to be followed today,

besides since Jesus did not stone the adulterous woman, why would he stone disobedient children


Still lying through your teeth, you Mohammedan-in-a-mask, eh?

Your taqiyya-and-tu-quoque bs (and your twisting of Biblical texts - I do not for *one minute* believe you are a Christian, every syllable you utter shrieks 'Mohammedan! for a mile) won't fly here.

You are 45ch alias loveverybody, a soul-eaten Mohammedan dementor, and I advise you to stop with the nonsense.

I know what you are.

Get out and quit trying to waste our time.

Dumble,

You stated : " Still lying through your teeth"

What was I lying about ?

Liberal muslims would say that what Jesus said about the stoning of disobedient kids

is a historical event and not valid today

especially considering the fact that once Jesus died for our sins,

the age of Grace came to be

and all disobedient children are covered by the blood of Jesus

and so disobedient children today should not be stoned to death

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