Huffington Post enables beating of women: publishes whitewash of Qur'an's justification for domestic abuse

"Men are the managers of the affairs of women for that God has preferred in bounty one of them over another, and for that they have expended of their property. Righteous women are therefore obedient, guarding the secret for God's guarding. And those you fear may be rebellious admonish; banish them to their couches, and beat them. If they then obey you, look not for any way against them; God is All-high, All-great." -- Qur'an 4:34

The three-million-dollar campaign of the Muslim Brotherhood-linked Islamic Circle of North America (ICNA) to whitewash Sharia and fool Americans about its nature began in earnest yesterday. Is this nonsensical article part of it? Is ICNA paying Qasim Rashid and/or the HuffPo to retail these soothing deceptions? We may never know the answers to those questions, but it is certain that if Qasim Rashid were an anti-jihad, pro-freedom writer, the mainstream media would be all over him asking questions about his funding and his backers. Whoever Rashid's may be, certainly this farrago coalesces neatly with ICNA's "war is deceit" Sharia whitewash effort.

"The Islamic Solution to Stop Domestic Violence," by Qasim Rashid in the Huffington Post, March 5:

Critics incorrectly allege that Islam command's husband's to beat their wives, often citing the Quran verse 4:34. Unfortunately, like any Muslim man who harms his wife, critics miss the keen wisdom in verse 4:34 that actively pre-empts domestic violence.

In Virginia, I provide pro bono legal support to victims of domestic and sexual violence. Virtually all of our clients are female. Every nine seconds -- nearly 10,000 victims daily -- a woman in the United States is abused. In America, domestic violence is the leading cause of injury to women, more than car accidents, muggings and rape -- combined. Would those who blame Islam for domestic violence also blame Christianity every nine seconds?...

Domestic violence is found in every culture and every nation, among people of every religion. The difference in Islam, which Rashid is busy trying to obscure, is that Qur'an 4:34 gives the practice divine sanction. Christianity doesn't teach that God commands that a man should beat his disobedient wife. No other religion does, either. No other culture teaches such a thing. In every other context, domestic violence is considered a crime. In Islam, it is a husband's prerogative according to the words of Allah himself.

Pre-emptive deterrence is the key. And this precisely is the wisdom behind verse 4:34 to decrease and stop violence against women. The verse in its totality describes a process of restraint, anger management and reformation.

The verse begins by defining a family unit, holding the husband accountable as the household's guardian and provider. This obligation gives him certain authority, privileges and a requirement of magnanimity -- but never the right to employ domestic violence. The verse then urges women to also act virtuously, and protect the family unit by cooperating with their husband, listening to him in all good things and to not publicize private family matters.

Note that Rashid never actually quotes Qur'an 4:34; why not? Is that not a curious and telling omission in an article that purports to be about explaining it? In any case, clearly in this part of his article he is explaining this portion of the verse: "Men are the managers of the affairs of women for that God has preferred in bounty one of them over another, and for that they have expended of their property. Righteous women are therefore obedient, guarding the secret for God's guarding." Notice how he glosses over the part about God preferring men "in bounty" over women -- or, as another translation has it, "Men have superiority over women because God has made the one superior to the other..." And in explaining the man's "authority, privileges" and "requirement of magnanimity," he said that he is never given "the right to employ domestic violence." But in fact, the rest of the verse gives him exactly that "right," and this part of the verse does not forbid him from exercising it. Rashid's claim that this part of Qur'an 4:34 forbids men to employ domestic violence is based on nothing in the text whatsoever.

Next, verse 4:34 employs the process of anger management, reformation and reconciliation. This process may only be employed after a wife has initially and deliberately undermined or attempted to destroy the family, as indicated by the words, "as for those on whose part you fear disobedience." But "disobedience" does not mean any random disagreement a wife may have with her husband. Arabic lexicon provides the correct understanding as that of a wife who has deserted her husband altogether or has unjustly attempted to destroy the family. Once a wife deliberately engages in this form of behavior, then the Quran describes a process to peacefully reconcile the dispute.

This is palpable hooey. All over the Islamic world men inflict the command in this verse upon women for far less than desertion or unjustly attempting to "destroy the family." And note also, Rashid's taqiyya fog doesn't quite manage to obscure the uncomfortable fact that the Qur'an doesn't envision any penalty for men who desert or attempt to destroy their families. The latter is so remote that Rashid is clearly trying to make the wife-beating command something that a Muslim would only resort to in the most extreme cases, but reality is different. Take the case of Pakistan: Amnesty International reports that “according to the Pakistan Institute of Medical Sciences, over 90% of married women report being kicked, slapped, beaten or sexually abused when husbands were dissatisfied by their cooking or cleaning, or when the women had ‘failed’ to bear a child or had given birth to a girl instead of a boy.” Women got "kicked, slapped, beaten or sexually abused" for far less than desertion and attempting to destroy the family.

The first step, anger management, obliges the husband to merely admonish his wife of his concern, essentially encouraging the parties to admit that a problem exists. This forces a man to strictly control himself in hopes that his wife will also incline to reconciliation.

This part of the verse actually says, "And those you fear may be rebellious admonish..." There is nothing there whatsoever about the man having "to strictly control himself." This again is Rashid's whitewash. There is nothing inherent in giving someone a warning that involves controlling oneself. And given the content of the verse, what kind of self-control is Rashid saying is called for anyway? Apparently Rashid is saying that the husband must control his impulse to beat his wife -- no other form of self-control enters into the verse at all.

Should this fail, the second step is separating beds for up to four months. This act further diminishes the chances of domestic violence, as a man physically separates himself from the emotionally charged situation for an extended period of time. If the wife engaged in an action to which the husband over reacted, then his extended time apart will help him realize the foolishness of his own behavior. Likewise, if the wife indeed engaged in an improper act, then her husband's separation will encourage her to realize the unreasonableness of her behavior. Either way, this step avoids violence altogether while actively promoting reconciliation.

This part of the verse is "banish them to their couches." There is absolutely nothing in this about the husband realizing "the foolishness of his own behavior." The emphasis is entirely on sending the wife out of the marriage bed as a punishment. Here again we see a hint of the Islamic idea that female sexuality is strong, dangerous, and must be controlled: the idea that a wife is punished, but not a husband, by banishing her from the marriage bed only makes sense in light of an assumption that women are unable to control themselves sexually in the way that men can.

Employed effectively, these two steps help reconcile the vast majority of domestic disputes. Should the first two steps fail, however, the Quran allows -- never commands -- men to consider the third step, translated as "to chastise them."

Actually, the directive to "beat them" is not an allowance at all, but a straightforward, matter-of-fact command. And the words وَاضْرِبُوهُنَّ, wa dariboohunna, do not just mean "and chastise them," or Rashid wouldn't have had to write this article in the first place. They mean "and beat them," and that or a variant of that is how they are uniformly translated:

Pickthall: “and scourge them”
Yusuf Ali: “(And last) beat them (lightly)”
Al-Hilali/Khan: “(and last) beat them (lightly, if it is useful)”
Shakir: “and beat them”
Sher Ali: “and chastise them”
Khalifa: “then you may (as a last alternative) beat them”
Arberry: “and beat them”
Dawood: "and beat them"
Rodwell: “and scourge them”
Sale: “and chastise them”
Asad: “then beat them”

Rashid, however, ignores this and continues whitewashing in earnest:

But to understand "chastise" as sanctioning violence ignores the lengthy process employed in the first two steps to eliminate violence, the proper meaning and scope of "chastise," and the precedent of peaceful reconciliation Prophet Muhammad himself established.

In reality, Aisha reports that Muhammad struck her. Once he went out at night after he thought she was asleep, and she followed him surreptitiously. Muhammad saw her, and, as Aisha recounts: “He struck me on the chest which caused me pain, and then said: Did you think that Allah and His Apostle would deal unjustly with you?” (Sahih Muslim 2127) Aisha herself said it: “I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women.” (Sahih Bukhari 7.72.715)

First, it is unmerited to suggest that the Quran requires such extensive lengths to avoid violence, only to ultimately permit it.

Actually, it is quite merited.

Next, Arabic lexicon demonstrates that the word translated "chastise," i.e. daraba, employs definitions like "to heal," having nothing to do with violence. While daraba may also mean, "to strike," the proper scope of "strike" is best understood through Prophet Muhammad's example. Prophet Muhammad explained that for that man incapable of controlling his anger -- the first two required restrictions notwithstanding -- any act, such as a "strike," must heal and "not so much as to leave a mark."

Here again, Rashid is expecting his marks at the HuffPo to believe that all those translators I listed above, including both Muslim and non-Muslim scholars, got this word wrong in their translations. And he is banking on their not knowing about Muhammad's striking Aisha.

Elaborating on this, Prophet Muhammad explicitly admonished Muslims, "Do not beat your wives." He led by example and never struck his wives, therefore demonstrating in word and in deed that Muslim men cannot harm women for any reason.

Generally Muslim scholars teach that if a hadith contradicts the Qur'an, it is a false, forged hadith, and they acknowledge that there are many of those. So if Muhammad is purported to have said, "Do not beat your wives," while the Qur'an says, "beat them," most Muslims would consider that to be a weak hadith. But useful to deceive gullible non-Muslims, to be sure.

Rashid concludes:

...Finally, remember that domestic violence occurs because men let their anger rule their behavior. If the nearly 10,000 American women who are abused daily received the pre-emptive protections that verse 4:34 offers, then how many women would actually be subject to domestic violence at all?

Probably just as many as would have been before.

So why is the HuffPo fronting for this? Why is the HuffPo allowing itself to be a forum for someone who wants to deceive us about the Qur'an's justification for beating women? Doesn't the Huffington Post care about women?

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There is a classic article in the Times (Sat 3 March) especially relevant to this article, that talks about Afghan women married to Taliban. It quotes one such woman talking about the benefits of being married to an 'insurgent' as follows:
"They are fighters and when they come home they are tired and don't beat us".

See

http://edgar1981.blogspot.com/2012/03/benefits-of-being-married-to-taliban.html

for the full account

This seems to be the standard operating procedure for all Islamic apologists. He comes up with some convoluted interpretation of the Quran, and then expects his non-Muslim readers to just assume that that's the last word on the matter. Even if his interpretation were reasonable and shared by many Muslims (and that's a big 'if'), the world is still left with the reality that millions of Muslims and Muslim scholars have historically interpreted that verse to advocate the beating of women, and continue to believe, preach and practice that today. It's nice if the author personally doesn't interpret the passage to advocate violence, but that's neither here nor there for the rest of the world.

I would argue that virtually all "moderate" Muslims (assuming they're being sincere) have made a tacit agreement with the "extremists"--namely, that the extremists will allow the "moderates" to spout their tolerant version of Islam--as long as the moderates don't ever call attention to, challenge or attack the "extremists" specifically. And then this is the deal the "moderates" offer to us non-Muslims: we're supposed to go along with them, and never challenge the extremists, and just pretend that they don't exist. Unfortunately, for those of us living in the real world who will have to deal with real consequences, this is a foolish and unacceptable option for us.

Oh, and I should add this is just another example of the "good cop, bad cop" routine that Muslims are using against the West on a global level.

Allah has forgotten to tell HOW (and where) to beat a wife

http://newstime.co.nz/human-sharia-vs-evil-quran.html

… only to 4:34 “beat them” (women, “(lightly)” and all other words in brackets are an invention from the translator Yusuf Ali)

it is in the koran. like it or not!!!!!!!!

Wife beating is an inferiority complex. Real men don't beat their wives. Muhammad was not a real man, his sexual "prowess" is nothing but a myth.
http://crossmuslims.blogspot.com/2011/01/prophetess-of-islam.html

To Muslims behind ICNA ….

I as a daughter of a beaten Muslim women would like to say to this ...ICNA …

THIS

Go and take your *Idea* of what Q 4/34 means and shove it in a place where no sun will ever shine…

My father's idea of his wife's disobedience that needs beatings is this : …….some among many

Not having his food ready on time at 2;00

Broken chair and other things by a his children …

Have friend girlfriends, over with too many children

Have her mother visit for too long …

Not cook what he wants exactly ...so he throws the table all over the walls with all food still on it ….then he beat her until she reduced to black and blue pile of nothings ….children have to clean all night so he wont turn on them.

I could keep on going to fill miles of pages ….

Idrubohonnah … beat them[ wives] …..should NOT …. I REPEAT ….NOT ….have been in Quran … if Quran is supposedly came from any God …

and who ever say otherwise … I say … go suck on an egg !!!… why don't you !!!… you do not Know what the hell you are talking about….

It is sick to feed Muslim husband expectations from a wife and encourage him and tell him how to beat his wives …….Quran's Outrageous rule like 4/34 has done sick acts against women …..it should have been OUTLAWED … Long ago

IT IS INHUMAN AND DISGUSTING RULE

Muhammad ………...go to HELL [ if there is one] …. the same hell you B ^$$$$ *sentenced* us muslim women to life of misery …

Muhammad had a loveless heart and he made millions of Muslim men who imitate him who have loveless heartless too …

Muhammad … There is no ONE or NOTHING I hate more then you?

Huffington Post enables beating of women: publishes whitewash of Qur'an's justification for domestic abuse

"Men are the managers of the affairs of women for that God has preferred in bounty one of them over another, and for that they have expended of their property. Righteous women are therefore obedient, guarding the secret for God's guarding. And those you fear may be rebellious admonish; banish them to their couches, and beat them. If they then obey you, look not for any way against them; God is All-high, All-great." -- Qur'an 4:34
..............................

Expect Fayzal Mahamed to show up any minute now, claiming that every single translation of the Qur'an—even Yusuf Ali's bowdlerized one where he inserts "lightly"—is wrong because he found one from an Islamic women's group desperate to stop male Muslim savagery that simply omits the words "and beat them".

More:

"The Islamic Solution to Stop Domestic Violence," by Qasim Rashid in the Huffington Post, March 5:

Critics incorrectly allege that Islam command's husband's to beat their wives, often citing the Quran verse 4:34. Unfortunately, like any Muslim man who harms his wife, critics miss the keen wisdom in verse 4:34 that actively pre-empts domestic violence.
..............................

Yeah—I've managed to miss that "keen wisdom" myself.

More:

In Virginia, I provide pro bono legal support to victims of domestic and sexual violence. Virtually all of our clients are female. Every nine seconds -- nearly 10,000 victims daily -- a woman in the United States is abused. In America, domestic violence is the leading cause of injury to women, more than car accidents, muggings and rape -- combined. Would those who blame Islam for domestic violence also blame Christianity every nine seconds?...
..............................

This is true, and it is appalling.

It is also true that no Jew or Christian is able to cite Biblical justification for domestic violence. The same is hardly true of core Islamic texts. The Qur'an, Hadiths, and Sira all condone wife-beating. The "Prophet" himself beat his wives, including his favorite wife, young Aisha.

Qur'an (38:44) - "And take in your hand a green branch and beat her with it, and do not break your oath..." [Allah telling Job to beat his wife]

From the Hadith:

Bukhari (72:715) - A woman came to Muhammad and begged her to stop her husband from beating her. Her skin was bruised so badly that she it is described as being "greener" than the green veil she was wearing. Muhammad did not admonish her husband, but instead ordered her to return to him and submit to his sexual desires.

Bukhari (72:715) - "Aisha said, 'I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women'" This is Muhammad's own wife complaining of the abuse that the women of her religions suffer relative to other women.

Muslim (4:2127) - Muhammad struck his favorite wife, Aisha, in the chest one evening when she left the house without his permission. Aisha narrates, "He struck me on the chest which caused me pain."

Muslim (9:3506) - Muhammad's father-in-laws (Abu Bakr and Umar) amused him by slapping his wives (Aisha and Hafsa) for annoying him. According to the Hadith, the prophet of Islam laughed upon hearing this.
..............................

There are many more.

More:

Pre-emptive deterrence is the key. And this precisely is the wisdom behind verse 4:34 to decrease and stop violence against women. The verse in its totality describes a process of restraint, anger management and reformation.
..............................

Well, Rashid *is* right about the whole "pre-emptive deterrence" thing. Muslims can beat their wives if they so much as "fear" disobedience.

This allows every paranoid control-freak to beat his wife even if she scrupulously obeys him.

More:

Next, verse 4:34 employs the process of anger management, reformation and reconciliation. This process may only be employed after a wife has initially and deliberately undermined or attempted to destroy the family, as indicated by the words, "as for those on whose part you fear disobedience." But "disobedience" does not mean any random disagreement a wife may have with her husband. Arabic lexicon provides the correct understanding as that of a wife who has deserted her husband altogether or has unjustly attempted to destroy the family. Once a wife deliberately engages in this form of behavior, then the Quran describes a process to peacefully reconcile the dispute.

This is palpable hooey. All over the Islamic world men inflict the command in this verse upon women for far less than desertion or unjustly attempting to "destroy the family." And note also, Rashid's taqiyya fog doesn't quite manage to obscure the uncomfortable fact that the Qur'an doesn't envision any penalty for men who desert or attempt to destroy their families...
..............................

God knows this is true. However one spins this, it is still the husband who demands obedience and metes out physical punishment if he does not receive it. There is no such penalty for male peccadilloes—no matter what the severity.

More:

The latter is so remote that Rashid is clearly trying to make the wife-beating command something that a Muslim would only resort to in the most extreme cases, but reality is different. Take the case of Pakistan: Amnesty International reports that “according to the Pakistan Institute of Medical Sciences, over 90% of married women report being kicked, slapped, beaten or sexually abused when husbands were dissatisfied by their cooking or cleaning, or when the women had ‘failed’ to bear a child or had given birth to a girl instead of a boy.” Women got "kicked, slapped, beaten or sexually abused" for far less than desertion and attempting to destroy the family.
..............................

**Yes**. This is the truth on the ground.

More:

This part of the verse actually says, "And those you fear may be rebellious admonish..." There is nothing there whatsoever about the man having "to strictly control himself." This again is Rashid's whitewash. There is nothing inherent in giving someone a warning that involves controlling oneself. And given the content of the verse, what kind of self-control is Rashid saying is called for anyway? Apparently Rashid is saying that the husband must control his impulse to beat his wife -- no other form of self-control enters into the verse at all.
..............................

Exactly. Rashid is claiming the Muslim is "strict self-control" for not belting his wife right off the bat. Not that many Muslims don't just skip right to that part, in any case...

More:

First, it is unmerited to suggest that the Quran requires such extensive lengths to avoid violence, only to ultimately permit it.

Actually, it is quite merited.
..............................

That's *exactly* what it does. Especially given the vagueness of "fearing disobedience", it is quite possible for even the most cowed wife to wind up black and blue or "honor killed". And many, many Muslim women do.

More:

So why is the HuffPo fronting for this? Why is the HuffPo allowing itself to be a forum for someone who wants to deceive us about the Qur'an's justification for beating women? Doesn't the Huffington Post care about women?
..............................

*Damn good question*.

While I disagree with Arianna Huffington on many issues, it is clear that she is a smart, independent woman who *hardly* believes that "men are the managers of the affairs of women".

In fact, she divorced her husband, repudiated his political views, and became an influential pundit.

And this is not the first time Qasim Rashid has shown up at the Huffington Post spewing Taqiyya. Here is his mostly favorable review of a book that essentially claims that Judaism, Christianity, and the Bible are just as violent as Muslims and the Qur'an:

"Laying Down The Sword: A Review"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/qasim-rashid/laying-down-the-sword-why_b_1250004.html

Does Rashid think we are stupid? Does the Huffington Post think we are stupid?

Unrelated:

In recent news, a Muslim... no, an Arizona mother "lightly" tortured her daughter for refusing an arranged marriage moments after the girl's Muslim... no, Arizona father "lightly" tried to behead her.

http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/211383.php

Also, muslim scholars, with much more experience with islam than Mr Rashid, discuss how to "lightly" practice verse 4:34:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yl8g8S6F3do

And what does Puffho have to say about non-Moslems beating their wives? Is that o.k. too? If not, why not?

In accusing Republicans of warring on women isn't the Left confusing them with misogynist Islam?

Upcoming articles by Qasim Rashid:

"The Islamic Solution: How Executing Apostates Can Stop Apostasy"
"The Islamic Solution: How Hanging Gays Can Stop Homosexuality"
"The Islamic Solution: How Stoning Women Can Stop Adultery"
"The Islamic Solution: How 9 Year Old Brides Can Stop Child Molestation"
"The Islamic Solution: How Jizya & Humiliation Can Stop Dissent"
"The Islamic Solution: How Blasphemy Laws Can Stop Hate Speech"
"The Islamic Solution: How Submission & Slavery Can Bring Peace"

One day, we'll all live in a free, post Huffington world. No Islam!

Robert wrote:

"So why is the HuffPo fronting for this? Why is the HuffPo allowing itself to be a forum for someone who wants to deceive us about the Qur'an's justification for beating women? Doesn't the Huffington Post care about women?"

Since it's the HuffPo, I assume that those were rhetorical questions?

Are sponsors gonna do the same thing they did to Rush Limbaugh? of course not, we know libtards can get away with anything.

This guy’s article is dumb even by Muslim standards. Does he not think that at least some people will look up the verse to see what it actually says? Or at least wonder why he feels the need to explain it? He’d have been better off not saying anything about 4:34 and instead sticking with the usual false generalities: ‘Islam means peace,’; ‘Jesus is a prophet in our religion too,’; ‘whoever takes a life…’; etc. If ICNA paid this individual , they got ripped off. Which I guess ultimately is a good thing. They should have stuck with Zuhdi, Reza, or Suhail. They’re much slicker. Or at least had them proof-read it. Good lord, Muslims are @#&% stupid. Unfortunately, the people running the US government and military right now are even dumber – hence, we lose.

To be fair, gravenimage, I have sometimes met Christians (though no Jews so far) who use verses like Proverbs 13:24 to justify beating children. It's as if they have never read I Timothy 3:3 and haven't a clue how to read the Tanakh in the light of the New Testament. Some have reacted with horrified disbelief at my audacity in giving more weight to the words of St Paul than to the traditions of their churches!

So can you blame a Muslim for taking Qur'an 4:34, not so much as a guide to limit actions, as licence to do exactly as he likes? After all, there are plenty of hadiths on his side. The assumption that a rebellious wife can be beaten is logically consistent with the Islamic concept of marriage.

The Messenger of Allah said: “If I were to command anyone to prostrate before any [mere human], I would have commanded the wife to prostrate before her husband, because of the enormity of his right upon her.”

These tertiary sources are very poor at citing exact references. The fact that nobody seems to know exactly where this stuff comes from is part of my point. It's deep in the psyche of the practitioners. It's not just one verse of the Qur'an, but the whole Muslim mind-set. Beating is not just for women, children, slaves and dhimmis: it’s a part of the very fabric of how Islamic society controls its members.

Bukhari 3:509. Ocba ibn Al-Harith said: “When An-Nuaman or his son was brought in a state of drunkenness, Allah’s Apostle ordered everyone present in the house to beat him. I was one of those who beat him. We beat him with shoes and palm-leaf stalks.”

A mere thump of the type Muhammad and Abu Bakr were wont to give Ayesha did not count as a “beating”. Note that Abu Bakr saw nothing wrong with striking Ayesha after she had married Muhammad, and Muhammad had very little problem with it either.

An-Nasaai. The Prophet never beat any of his wives or servants; in fact, he did not strike any living being with his hand except in the cause of Allah or when the prohibitions of Allah had been violated, and he retaliated on behalf of Allah.

There is a level of violence that counts as real “beating” yet still has certain limits. Muslims proudly cite traditions like the following as evidence of serious compassion and moderation.

Bukhari 3:734. Abu Hurayra said that the Prophet said: “If somebody beats somebody then he should avoid the face.”

The types of rebellion that attract a beating are clearly defined.

Abu Dawud. As-Sabura said: “The Prophet said: Order your children to pray at the age of seven. And beat them if they do not do so by the age of ten.”

Bukhari 883. Nafi said, “Omar’s son used to beat his children for mistakes in diction.”

Human nature is evil. When people believe they have some kind of divine right to attack other people, the majority of them will do so. For every one who has the insight to restrain himself despite knowing of this "right", there will be another who ignores even the prescribed limits, e.g., is willing to slap faces even when no "rebellion" has occurred.

Thank you, fineliving56, for reminding us of what happens when the law that is already far too permissive is primarily designed to protect the abuser. Your childhood sounds truly horrifying. Unfortunately, "protecting the abuser" is but entirely consistent with the concept of the Islamic umma. Here is a very chilling modern source http://muttaqun.com/abuse.html.

Never turn Muslims over to a non-Islamic state (such as to report abuse) unless at the particular moment you have a serious threat to your wellbeing and no Muslims are available to help you… Once the abuse has taken place, remove oneself from the abusive environment instead of reporting a Muslim to a non-Muslim police force and court system.

Rashid:

"The verse begins by defining a family unit, holding the husband accountable as the household's guardian and provider. This obligation gives him certain authority, privileges and a requirement of magnanimity -- but never the right to employ domestic violence. The verse then urges women to also act virtuously, and protect the family unit by cooperating with their husband, listening to him in all good things and to not publicize private family matters."

and...

"Employed effectively, these two steps help reconcile the vast majority of domestic disputes. Should the first two steps fail, however, the Quran allows -- never commands -- men to consider the third step, translated as "to chastise them."
_____

The first paragraph says, "This obligation gives him certain authority..."

The second paragraph says, "...the Quran allows -- never commands -- men to consider the third step, translated as 'to chastise them.'
___________________________________________________________

Huge logic fail. He admits that the Qur'an OBLIGATES the man to keep certain behavior. Then he claims it NEVER COMMANDS.
___________________________________________________________

This Rashid character is very, very similar to our friend, Fizzle. Distraction, deflection, obfuscation and outright lying are the names of the pieces on the Mohammedist's chessboard. His style reminds me also of Boy Aslan, who I'd still like to have a boxing match with...
_____________________________________________

And why Huffpo fronting? Who the hell knows? They're all loco over there, anyway...

Thanks for the reply, Diana.

Qasim Rashid: "Elaborating on this, Prophet Muhammad explicitly admonished Muslims, "Do not beat your wives." He led by example and never struck his wives, therefore demonstrating in word and in deed that Muslim men cannot harm women for any reason."

Note the appeal to the Hadith, which, Rashid knowingly conceals from his largely ignorant audience, contains the explicit commands confirming 4:34 means beat as in strike, hit, etc. explicitly.

The even bigger deception, though, is where he says Muhammad said don't beat your wives. "Allah" specifically overruled Muhammad on precisely that point, and "forced" him to reveal 4:34, commanding that Muslim men beat their wives. Here is the context of 4:34 provided by al-Wahidi (and thus behold the brazen deception of Qasim Rashid):

"(Men are in charge of women…) [4:34]. Said Muqatil: “This verse (Men are in charge of women…) was revealed about Sa‘d ibn al-Rabi‘, who was one of the leaders of the Helpers (nuqaba’), and his wife Habibah bint Zayd ibn Abi Zuhayr, both of whom from the Helpers. It happened Sa‘d hit his wife on the face because she rebelled against him. Then her father went with her to see the Prophet, Allah bless him and give him peace. He said to him: ‘I gave him my daughter in marriage and he slapped her’. The Prophet, Allah bless him and give him peace, said: ‘Let her have retaliation against her husband’. As she was leaving with her father to execute retaliation, the Prophet, Allah bless him and give him peace, called them and said: ‘Come back; Gabriel has come to me’, and Allah, exalted is He, revealed this verse. The Messenger of Allah, Allah bless him and give him peace, said: ‘We wanted something while Allah wanted something else, and that which Allah wants is good’. Retaliation was then suspended”. Sa‘id ibn Muhammad ibn Ahmad al-Zahid informed us> Zahir ibn Ahmad> Ahmad ibn al-Husayn ibn Junayd> Ziyad ibn Ayyub> Hushaym> Yunus ibn al-Hasan who reported that a man slapped his wife and she complained about him to the Prophet, Allah bless him and give him peace. Her family who went with her said: “O Messenger of Allah! So-and-so has slapped our girl”. The Prophet, Allah bless him and give him peace, kept saying: “Retaliation! Retaliation! And there is no other judgement to be held”. But then this verse (Men are in charge of women…) was revealed and the Prophet, Allah bless him and give him peace, said: “We wanted something and Allah wanted something else”. Abu Bakr al-Harithi informed us> Abu’l-Shaykh al-Hafiz> Abu Yahya al-Razi> Sahl al-‘Askari> ‘Ali ibn Hashim> Isma‘il> al-Hasan who said: “Around the time when the verse on retaliation was revealed amongst the Muslims, a man had slapped his wife. She went to the Prophet, Allah bless him and give him peace and said: ‘My husband has slapped me and I want retaliation’. So he said: ‘Let there be retaliation’. As he was still dealing with her, Allah, exalted is He, revealed (Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other…). Upon which the Prophet, Allah bless him and give him peace, said: ‘We wanted something and my Lord wanted something different. O man, take your wife by the hand’ ”.

http://www.altafsir.com/AsbabAlnuzol.asp?SoraName=4&Ayah=34&search=yes&img=A

Relevant hadiths:

First there was this:

Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 11, Number 2138:
Narrated Mu'awiyah ibn Haydah:I said: Apostle of Allah, how should we approach our wives and how should we leave them? He replied: Approach your tilth when or how you will, give her (your wife) food when you take food, clothe when you clothe yourself, do not revile her face, and do not beat her.

Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 11, Number 2137:
Narrated Mu'awiyah al-Qushayri:
Mu'awiyah asked: Apostle of Allah, what is the right of the wife of one of us over him? He replied: That you should give her food when you eat, clothe her when you clothe yourself, do not strike her on the face, do not revile her or separate yourself from her except in the house.

Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 11, Number 2137:
Narrated Mu'awiyah al-Qushayri:
Mu'awiyah asked: Apostle of Allah, what is the right of the wife of one of us over him? He replied: That you should give her food when you eat, clothe her when you clothe yourself, do not strike her on the face, do not revile her or separate yourself from her except in the house.

But then there was this:

Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 11, Number 2141:
"Narrated Abdullah ibn AbuDhubab: "Iyas ibn Abdullah ibn AbuDhubab reported the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) as saying: Do not beat Allah's handmaidens, but when Umar came to the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) and said: Women have become emboldened towards their husbands, he (the Prophet) gave permission to beat them.
Then many women came round the family of the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) complaining against their husbands. So the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) said: Many women have gone round Muhammad's family complaining against their husbands. They are not the best among you.""

Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 11, Number 2142:
"Narrated Umar ibn al-Khattab: The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: A man will not be asked as to why he beat his wife."

fineliving56 wrote:

To Muslims behind ICNA ….

I as a daughter of a beaten Muslim women would like to say to this ...
................................

Harrowing, Fine Living. I knew your mother had been beaten, but it is even worse than I had imagined. I'm so sorry. I know this must have taken a terrible toll on you and your siblings, as well.

*This* is what wife beating looks like in the Muslim world—not the fantasy whitewash presented by Qasim Rashid.

Beating was a widely-approved method of corporal punishment in the time of Muhammad, according to the hadith. There is no question according to the hadith that Muhammad's final policy regarding wives and slave girls is that they were to be beaten (or worse). Here is further confirmation that beating was a standard practice, contrary to Rashid Qasim's deceptions about this:

Beatings approved by Muhammad or at least one companion who became a rightly-guided caliph:

Beating for not doing prayer:

Narrated As-Saburah: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Command a boy to pray when he reaches the age of seven years. When he becomes ten years old, then beat him for prayer. (Sunan Abu Dawud, Book #2, Hadith #0494)

Narrated Abdullah ibn Amr ibn al-'As: The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said: Command your children to pray when they become seven years old, and beat them for it (prayer) when they become ten years old; and arrange their beds (to sleep) separately. (Sunan Abu Dawud, Book #2, Hadith #0495)

Beating for doing the wrong kind of prayer or wrong timing:

Malik’s Muwatta: Yahya related to me from Malik from Abdullah ibn Dinar from Abdullah ibn Umar that Umar ibn al-Khattab used to say, "Do not intend to do your prayer at either sunrise or sunset, for the horns of Shaytan rise with the rising of the sun and set with its setting." Umar used to beat people for that kind of prayer. (Book #15, Hadith #15.10.49)
Yahya related to me from Malik from Ibn Shihab from as-Sa'ib ibn Yazid that he saw Umar ibn al-Khattab beating al-Munkadir for praying after asr. (Book #15, Hadith #15.10.50)

Beating for asking “foolish questions”:

Yahya related to me from Malik from Ibn Shihab that al-Qasim ibn Muhammad said that he had heard a man asking ibn Abbas about booty. Ibn Abbas said, "Horses are part of the booty and personal effects are as well." Then the man repeated his question, and Ibn Abbas repeated his answer. Then the man said, "What are the spoils which He, the Blessed, the Exalted, mentioned in His Book?" He kept on asking until Ibn Abbas was on the verge of being annoyed, then Ibn Abbas said, "Do you know who this man is like? Ibn Sabigh, who was beaten by Umar ibn al-Khattab because he was notorious for asking foolish questions." Yahya said that Malik was asked whether someone who killed one of the enemy could keep the man's effects without the permission of the Imam. He said, "No one can do that without the permission of the Imam. Only the Imam can make ijtihad. I have not heard that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, ever said, 'Whoever kills someone can have his effects,' on any other day than the day of Hunayn." 3 (Malik's Muwatta, Book #21, Hadith #21.10.19)

Beating a wife for objecting to her husband’s slave girl:

Yahya related to me from Malik that Abdullah ibn Dinar said, "A man came to Abdullah ibn Umar when I was with him at the place where judgments were given and asked him about the suckling of an older person. Abdullah ibn Umar replied, 'A man came to Umar ibn al-Khattab and said, 'I have a slave-girl and I used to have intercourse with her. My wife went to her and suckled her. When I went to the girl, my wife told me to watch out, because she had suckled her!' Umar told him to beat his wife and to go to his slave-girl because kinship by suckling was only by the suckling of the young.' " (Malik's Muwatta, Book #30, Hadith #30.2.13)

Beating for playing games:
Yahya related to me from Malik from Nafi from Abdullah ibn Umar that when he found one of his family playing dice he beat him and destroyed the dice. Yahya said that he heard Malik say, "There is no good in chess, and he disapproved of it." Yahya said, "I heard him disapprove of playing it and other worthless games. He recited this ayat, 'What is there after the truth except going the wrong way.' " (Sura l0 ayat 32). (Malik's Muwatta, Book #52, Hadith #52.2.7)

Beating a drunk, followed by lashes:

Narrated AbdurRahman ibn Azhar: I can still picture myself looking at the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) who was among the camps of the Companions seeking the camp of Khalid ibn al-Walid, when a man who had drunk wine was brought before him. He asked the people: beat him. Some struck him with sandals, some with sticks and some with fresh branches of the palm-tree (mitakhah). Ibn Wahb said: This (mitakhah) means green palm fronds. Then the apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) took some dust from the ground and threw it on his face. (Sunan Abu Dawud, Book #38, Hadith #4472)

Narrated AbdurRahman ibn al-Azhar: A man who had drunk wine was brought before the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) when he was in Hunayn. He threw some dust on his face. He then ordered his Companions and they beat him with their sandals and whatever they had in their hands. He then said to them: Leave him, and they left him. The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) then died, and AbuBakr gave forty lashes for drinking wine, and then Umar in the beginning of his Caliphate inflicted forty stripes and at the end of his Caliphate he inflicted eighty stripes. Uthman (after him) inflicted both punishments, eighty and forty stripes, and finally Mu'awiyah established eighty stripes. (Sunan Abu Dawud, Book #38, Hadith #4473)

Narrated AbdurRahman ibn Azhar: I saw the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) on the morning of the conquest of Mecca when I was a young boy. He was walking among the people, seeking the camp of Khalid ibn al-Walid. A man who had drunk wine was brought (before him) and he ordered them (to beat him). So they beat him with what they had in their hands. Some struck him with whips, some with sticks and some with sandals. The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) threw some dust on his face. When a man who had drunk wine was brought before AbuBakr, he asked them (i.e. the people) about the number of beatings which they gave him. They numbered it forty. So AbuBakr gave him forty lashes. When Umar came to power, Khalid ibn al-Walid wrote to him: The people have become addicted to drinking wine and they look down upon the prescribed punishment and its penalty. He said: They are with you, ask them. The immigrants who embraced Islam in the beginning were with him. He asked them and they agreed on the fact that (a drunkard) should be given eighty lashes. Ali said: When a man drinks wine, he tells lies. I, therefore, think that he should be prescribed punishment that is prescribed for telling lies.. (Sunan Abu Dawud, Book #38, Hadith #4474)


From Muhammad's farewell address (consistent with the Quran, and final, not abrogated): "Beat" your wives:

Ishaq, 651. Excerpt from Muhammad's speech as quoted. Context: The Farewell Pilgrimage.
"You have rights over your wives and they have rights over you. You have the right that they should not defile your bed and that they should not behave with open unseemliness. If they do, God allows you to put them in separate rooms and to beat them but not with severity. If they refrain from these things they have the right to their food and clothing with kindness. Lay injunctions on women kindly, for they are prisoners with you having no control of their persons. You have taken them only as a trust from God, and you have the enjoyment of their persons by the words of God, so understand my words, O men, for I have told you."

Finally, one should note that there is widespread acceptance among Muslims in the Islamic world today that Muslim men can beat their wives and children.

Islamic apologists in the West are left to twist and turn and defy reality in their deceptive defenses of 4:34.

gravenimage … thank you … I enjoy your posts so much ….

I know, some, like to say, not only Muslim families have abuse and wife beatings and that is true like we all know … but Islamic wive beating is completely deferent because women are not helped when beating in Muslims countries happen because there is a belief that the husband is care taker of his home and that include the wife and the law is on his side … I hated it when Muslims use this kind of refutation …it is absolutely wrong .

Yes … It took a lot out of My sisters and I … it took so much,…. My two sisters have to deal and cope with deep depression ….they took medications for years with the help for psychologists after they married … It lives with them and it still does until now …

I on the other hand, was the oldest and I had to defend them and defend my mother … I used to get beating in the process …..hiding my sisters when its in worst was My goal so they wont be hurt …..I used hide my tears from them so they wont be terrified because they relied on me .

My leaving back home as a young bride to live in my beloved America helped me to live free and deal with my hunting memories in distance but I was never was able to forget ever … not even for one day.. It is a burden That is heavy to carry … but I have no choice … It is part of me.

My Madison was and it will be until my end, are My paintings … some of them scare me some times … but they help me live without panic when memories comes in full view … they sustain me … I never need pills as my sisters …

My mother always used to tell me I was her little strong girl …Too bad she was not that strong to leave and save us from life in misery .

I am sorry … I keep writing about my life … It must depressing to readers … But who said, anything to do with Islam is and anything but,,,,,,,,,,,,, depressing ..

Sighhhhhhhhhhhhhh


fineliving

by telling your story you may well be helping to educate and warn many, many people.

People need to hear these things - especially young non-Muslim women who may be encountering slick and sly da'wa merchants, or oh-so-charming Muslim seducers.

Thank you for speaking out.

::hugs::

fineliving56, I don't think your story can be told too often. People need to be reminded that this is what the umma is like.

Men can beat the people whom they own.

There is nowhere the women can go to be safe because the law supports the men.

Mohammed himself said that only a bad woman complains about this.

That is why British Muslims have about ten times as much domestic violence as white Brits. All communities have some domestic violence, but of course there is more in communities that make no attempt to stop it.

I am so glad that you were able to escape to America and give up Islam. Giving up Islam is exactly what most Muslims find too difficult to do.

A classic article by 'Spengler', of 'Asia News' on the subject of sharia and wife-beating.


http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/LE25Ak01.html
Middle East
May 25 2010

Wife-beating, sharia, and Western law
By Spengler


And some news stories that show just how widespread Islamic violence against women is.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2008/01/yemen-times-columnist-there-must-be-violence-against-women.html

'Yemen Times columnist: There must be violence against women'

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2011/03/pakistani-hospitals-see-epidemic-of-marital-rape-if-i-refuse-the-angels-will-curse-me-all-night.html
Pakistani hospitals see epidemic of marital rape: "If I refuse the angels will curse me all night


And this case of a severely abusive Muslim husband, in Australia, who was extremely violent and controlling toward his wife and daughters and, in the end, when his wife took advantage of sympathetic non-Muslim law and law enforcement and left him, tracked her down and **murdered her** by stabbing her repeatedly in the back in front of 300 people.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/02/australian-honor-killing-the-woman-told-the-court-her-father-said-he-was-not-a-man-if-he-did-not-tea.html

Australian honor killing: "The woman told the court her father said he was not a man if he did not teach his family a lesson and he swore on the Koran that he would kill them"


http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/husband-swore-on-koran-to-kill-wife/story-e6frea6u-1226278145408

Husband 'calm after stabbing wife' at Adelaide Convention Centre

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/south-australia/murder-trial-told-of-familys-torment-by-man-who-allegedly-stabbed-wife-to-death-at-convention-centre/story-e6frea83-1226277219349


'Murder trial told of family's torment '

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/south-australia/abusive-husband-vowed-to-kill-wife/story-e6frea83-1226276195933

'Stabbed in back by angry husband'

Some more very telling articles.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/12/he-said-is-german-imam-recites-qurans-wife-beating-verse-while-beating-wife.html

He said it: Imam in Germany recites Qur'an's wife-beating verse while beating wife

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2011/06/lebanons-highest-sunni-muslim-authority-misunderstands-islam-says-law-against-wife-beating-and-marit.html

Lebanon's highest Sunni Muslim authority misunderstands Islam, says law against wife-beating and marital rape would "have a negative impact on Muslim children"

And this one:

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2008/11/muslim-medic-in-uk-muslim-men-think-they-have-god-given-right-to-beat-wives.html

Muslim medic in UK: Muslim men "think they have God-given right to beat wives" [story originally published in The Telegraph, as reported by Martin Beckford]

Excerpt:


'Dr Husain, who works at Heatherwood and Wexham Park Hospitals in Berkshire, told the Muslim News that many women ask to be referred to her specialist clinics because she is a hijab-wearing Muslim, allowing her to discover the true scale of domestic violence in her religious community.

'She said: "I've seen injuries on some of my patients that I wouldn't dream would happen to pregnant women.

"I've seen strangle marks, finger marks on their necks and bruises on their pregnant abdomens.

"Domestic violence is supposedly equally divided amongst the various groups but I get the impression it is more common in Muslims.

"Some Muslim men think they have a God-given right to be physically violent to their spouses. I see the result of all this when they are admitted as my patients."

Funny - killing women folk in Islam is based on 'destroying' the family's 'honor'!

The more you hear about Islam - you realize that the laws are like an Arab market - you go and ask the price and that is simply the beginning of a long and wrangling process.

The evidence shows most Muslims - at least from the Islamic world do understand that Islam does allow for the beating of wives. But most think that this should be done in a respectful way - like you would smack a child!!

Muhammad's example - seen as perfect and above question by [almost all] Muslims - shows where in Aisha's account, he punches the child solidly in the chest!!

[Muhammad died when Aisha was about 18 - after which she was sold off to the highest bidder!!]

::

To Muslim women - you want freedom - you can't handle freedom!!

::

It has become the norm now-a-days to use converts to Islam spokespersons - to explain that 'Islam doesn't support violence against women'.

In one incidence down in Australia - this new convert - was shoved in front of the media - to clarify Islam's position - in the face of a public outcry - over the sale of a popular book in the Muslim bookstores - that listed acceptable ways for a Muslim man to beat his wife.

At no time - did a cultural Muslim appear along side of her - clearly she was sent out to convey - her prior westernized beliefs!!

There are domestic violence abusers (i.e., insecure, inadequate, cowardly, wanting to completely control/dominate/be god, selfish, usually men) in every culture. Islam gives such (male) abusers sanctuary by making domestic violence "legal" under Sharia law, which enforces Islamic principals. Mohammad said men may beat their wives merely for "fearing" obedience, which is to beat someone into submission before they even attempt to think in opposition. The Qur'an gives no restrictions on the wife beating. In fact, Mohammad is recorded in the Sunna as saying that a man will NOT be questioned as to why he beat his wife. In Islam, wife beating is an unquestionable "right" of the husband.

This me hugging you back … thank you dumblederesarmy

When I stumbled on IW and from there, on JW … I never dreamed of how much my life would go yet another change in terms of what I think of my life is …

Writing about my story with Islam made me less lonely with my stories bundled up in my mind … sharing them allows me to put them away some how … but when I shared I never thought I was helping other young women who might be fooled in to the life Of Islam …

When I started it was selfishly , vent …but when I realized that, it gave me a purpose and boost …. I feel that what happen to my family and I, is not just tragic and pathetic like some times I feel it is … there is some good come out of it… like you said and Diana Summers.

THIS IS ME …. THE PRODECT OF WHAT ISLAM DOES TO WOMEN ….

I AM WARNING ALL WESTERN WOMEN TO NEVER … NEVER …. NEVER…. COME CLOSE TO THE DISEASE CALLED ILSAM … YOU ARE NOTHING BUT A THING TO USE AND MISUSE BY MUSLIM MEN … ISLAM IS FOR MEN AND FOR THE SERVES OF MEN … WOMEN GET SCRAPS.

I need to add …...The worse of what happen to me and my family is not said yet … I could not imagine my self or bring my self to voice it, and write about it … writing about the worst of it, shames me in my own eyes …

I do not know if I talked about this story ….I wrote about it in IW … but here it goes:

At one of the fights that seems to go on for hours and after, one the worst episodes of my mother, trying to defend her body of 5.2 to 6 foot 2 body of my father … she ran from him screaming in desperation and ran after her she was saying she can not take it any more …

I sow her run to the hallway and droped on floor and toke off her top and exposed her breasts banging on them in madness [ that is the first time I wrote about the part about expose of breasts outlawed I know it shames her memory but I felt I should talk about it …* I am sorry mom I love you where ever you are and I will always will * ]

She went to her knees tearing at her hair trying to pull it out … and then she got up and ran for the balcony … I realized that she wanted to throw her self off it .. screaming I ran after her and got hold of her begging her ….and … begging her … not to do it ….even when I understood why would a women would so such a thing …

I think what stopped her is what I said to her, but I am not sure …[ we never mentioned or talked about it again after that ]

When I said to her '' how could she leave us to him'' …I am so glad she did not do it.

I cry every time I write or talk about this story … How Could I not …. how could I not.

Islam is devoid of love

"Does Rashid think we are stupid? Does the Huffington Post think we are stupid?"

Rashid thinks we are stupid.

The Huffington Post and its gullible readership are, sincerely and earnestly, stupid.

A subtle, but crucial distinction.

The PC MC Cake of Stupdity

Ingredients:

3-1/2 drams of "Muslims can't possibly be practicing what is printed in black and white in their dusty old Koran"

1/2 a cup of "What about the Old Testament?"

1/2 a cup, for good measure, of "What about the Crusades?"

3/4 a cup of "Look at these Wikipedia statistics of how many women are abused in America every year"

5 tbsp. of "I know many nice, good Muslims"

(one heaping tablespoon, in the special recipe for Ariana Huffington herself, of "The good friend and associate of a dear friend of the family -- Jenji Kohan, creator of the popular cable sitcom Weeds -- is one of her frequent writer/directors, a Muslim woman, who has been over to our house for dinner parties many times and who I can assure you has never been beaten or mistreated by her charming Muslim husband.")

4 level tsps of "Do you know any Muslims personally?"

a few shakes of "Have you ever visited a Muslim country?"

a pinch to taste of "Do you know Arabic?"

Pre-heat gas oven to 475°

Get on knees and put head in oven.

fineliving56, you should write a book!

In fact, I'm sure you will one day, when you feel up to it. You have a story that the world needs to hear.

Because, unfortunately, it's not just a story about you and your poor mother. It's the same story that millions of families suffer all over the world.

fineliving56 wrote:

Writing about my story with Islam made me less lonely with my stories bundled up in my mind … sharing them allows me to put them away some how … but when I shared I never thought I was helping other young women who might be fooled in to the life Of Islam …
..............................

I think your story is very important, Fine Living. I know sharing it can't be easy.

I'm glad your painting helps. If art is (intentionally) ugly, it can be cathartic. If art is beautiful, it can be a balm. Both can be very powerful.

LemonLime, your 'recipe' for the "The PC MC Cake of Stupdity" is both hilarious and spot on!

All too many people, certainly, are consuming this poison on a regular basis...

thanks gravenimage -- indeed, to our continued misfortune.

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