Raymond Ibrahim: The Jihadist Roots of the Norway Massacre

@grungyoldvan
I agree with your comments about the "Knights Templar".
And I wonder if the answer to Islam may eventually be to return to the "Knights Templar" option.

In the mean time, Robert's blog, JW, is helpful.
And it's helpful because a big part of the problem is what I call the "JayWalking syndrome".
If you've ever seen the JayWalking segment on the Tonight Show with Jay Leno you can see just how totally OBLIVIOUS most people are about subjects that are very important, life and death really, like knowledge of Islam.
I think ignorance of the true nature of islam is a big part of the problem we are facing.
If we could just get people to read the koran, islam would be rejected by all but the already criminally insane.
So before we get to the Knights Templar option, we have a lot of work to do to educate people about the horrors of Islam.

I already know that the islamic horrors have to happen before there is a coagulation of freedom fighters.

Only demonstrations of islam will jar people into action.. just like the 400 years leading to the crusades..

that's just the way it is.. some things will never change

vladtepes2 wrote:

I have a question - how far are you willing to go in defense of Western Civilization?
Are you willing to go as far as the very civilized Jews of Hitler's Germany, who protested feebly and then walked meekly into the gas chambers, hand in hand with their wives and children?
Are you willing to go as far as the Allies in WWII who firebombed Dresden and burned alive hundreds of thousands of German women and children?
Are you willing to go as far as the Americans in WWII who used nuclear weapons to destroy entire cities in Japan?
............................................

vlad, Anders Breivik was *not* some sort of 'freedom fighter', if that is what you are implying.

And I don't believe the Allies were any harsher than they had to be during WWII in order to beat Fascism. And despite the natterings of some rewriters of history, we *never* turned into our enemies in the process, either.

Quite the contrary—we fully maintained our humanity, and sought no revenge when the threat was past—in fact, we helped our former enemies rebuild, at great cost to ourselves.

But then, I doubt I will get very far with someone who takes the bloody "Vlad the Impaler" as his username...

You wrote:

'"in this case, from terrorizing and killing the innocent"

'horseshit.. those young adults were not innocent, they were trained traitors that were educated to make Norway an easier place to live in for muslims..'.

It appears you believe that every single young person on that island deserved to die for the crime of having been brainwashed. You make no allowance for the fact that had they not been murdered, and had they later encountered alternative ways of thinking, they just might have changed their minds; it does happen, by the grace of God.

Hypothetical.

Suppose you, grungyoldvan, had been on that island, and armed, when Breivik started mowing down those teenagers.

Would you A/ have appointed yourself (as Breivik had already done) judge, jury and executioner, and joined Breivik in coolly disposing of these - terrified and unarmed - young people, including the two fourteen-year-olds?

Or would you B/ have used your weapon to take out Breivik and end the massacre? (Or do you view it not as a massacre but as a lawful execution?).

I very much doubt that our regular poster, 'Undaunted', would have chosen option A.

Would you?

*Would* you?

vlad, your assertion that the *only* defeat of Islam took place in Spain is not accurate, and is entirely too pessimistic.

Islam was driven out of the whole of the Iberian peninsula, not just Spain; out of Greece; out of Southern Italy and Sicily; out of Crete and Malta; and out of most of the Balkans; and was turned back from France and the gates of Vienna over the centuries.

And don't forget one of the great lights of reclamation—the vibrant modern state of Israel.

Islam had also rendered the Mediterranean Sea unfit for Infidel navigation for centuries—important sea victories like the 16th century Battle of Lepanto limited Islamic sea power, and the Americans, British, and the Europeans finally defeated the Barbary pirates in the early 19th century.

This is not in any way to make light of the horrific list of Muslim conquests, nor to make light of the threat of Islam today.

But Islam *can* be successfully fought—and has been many times.

*Excellent* post, DDA.

Hi Aardvark, I would say Tom Kratman has made a good prediction.

He was however beaten to the punch by Eric Hoffer, an American social writer and 'philosopher' who died in the early 1980's.

Hoffer made the following observation:

"You can discover what your enemy fears most by observing the means he uses to create fear in you."

I guess the difference between Kratman's observation and Hoffer's is that Kratman believes that using the enemies tactics will be forced on us eventually whereas Hoffer would probably have suggested we use the enemies tactics from the beginning.

The problem with either possibility is that we have a silly philosophy that has become prevalent in the west that if we use the actions of the enemy we become the enemy. This is a variant of "How are we any better than they are if we do what they do?" Both variants are silly philosophies that have nothing to do with reality. They appear to be an extension of P/C applied to the battle field. They are both fallacies as well. The Allies in WW2 did some pretty monstrous things but I would say when the war was over the U.S., Britain, and Canada had not become the Nazis.

I do have to wonder, Aardvark, if Kratman's conjecture is correct, that he is talking about a time when we are losing and losing badly. That might be the only situation in which the politicians would allow the military to adopt terrorist tactics. If so, that would be adopting the tactic too late to make a difference.

I think it would be best to heed Hoffer and use Jihad tactics ourselves right from the outset.

Hi VT2, nice to hear from you. It's been a while.

You said: These ideas are propaganda implanted in the minds of people in the West by infinite repetition and infiltration of the education system and the MSM.
These ideas are deliberate lies and tactics of the Left, psychological warfare tactics, the purpose of which is to disarm us psychologically.
The Left has been undermining our will to defend ourselves for decades.
Don't fall for the lies and propaganda of the Left.

That is my assessment too. The only thing I would add is that the indoctrination goes beyond our education system and the MSM. It comes from Hollywood and Television. That is a more insidious way of handling the philosophy because you can use a narrative, to illustrate the truth of the story and you can use a 'hero' figure who takes a moral stand in support of the philosophy. Heroic and dramatic music also plays into the propaganda as do lighting and camera angles. Also, indoctrination by narrative is more subtle. When it is done properly, you don't even know its happening. The 'resistance' factor is far less than in the classroom or reading the newspaper.

A good example of this took place in a Babylon V episode. Babylon V is a wonderful science fiction TV series written and produced by J. Michael Straczinski. I think it is the best written, acted, and directed TV series ever.

One part of the history of the series involves a genocidal war between Earth and a super advanced race called the Minbari. It quickly becomes clear to Earth military that the entire human race is doomed to extinction but in their search for a defense, they come across records that indicate a doctor in the military had treated some dying Minbari before the war started.

The military demand the doctor hand over whatever biological information he has on the Minbari so they can use it in their bio-weapons division. The doctor refuses and defends his action by saying something to the effect "If we use bio-weapons then how are we any better than they are?"

Well hey, war is about survival not about being better. More importantly, evolution is about survival of the fittest. Nature is not Politically Correct.

In Babylon V the doctor is made to 'look' right and morally praiseworthy (as he is carted off to prison for his act of rebellion. Later he is 'proved' to be right because the Minbari surrender to Earth just before they make their final assault. {Funny how impossible events are used to support a wrong decision.)

A similar contrivance is used in Crimson Tide, where a mutiny takes place aboard a U.S. nuclear submarine in order to prevent a thermonuclear launch against a Russian missile base that is fueling its missiles for an all out attack on the U.S. The 'hero' who started the mutiny, despite written orders from high command to launch, decides the sub should wait in case the original orders have been or will be countermanded. Of course the story plays out that the mutineer (revolutionary!) is right and the Captain (establishment) who wants to follow orders is wrong. Again the 'how are we any better' philosophy is shown to be our true calling as it ends up saving the world from nuclear holocaust. [The U.S. navy refused to participate in the production because they realized what Jerry Bruckheimer, the producer, was up to in making this film]

If you watch Hollywood's releases closely, you will see this leftist theme being played out ad nauseum.

The reason for this theme, by the way, is provided by Saul Alinksky in Rules for Radicals

The fourth rule is: Make the enemy live up to their own book of rules. You can kill them with this, for they can no more obey their own rules than the Christian church can live up to Christianity.

You are right about the education system, but Hollywood's input is far more dangerous because films are cross-generational whereas education for the most part speaks to the current generation.

I just had an additional thought on losing philosophies that are foisted on us by the left and the MSM.

The term 'proportional response' is now being used as a way of censuring Israel. The idea is, if the Palestinians launch an attack and kill 5 Israelis then the IDF is only allowed to take punitive action at the same level.

Obviously, that philosophy, if followed by Israel would be destructive to it in the extreme. The philosophy also represents a misuse of the word proportional.

Proportional should be applied in terms of the overall damage incurred by the damaged side. In a country like Israel, where the population is 7.8+ million, a loss of 5 lives has more significance to it than the loss of 5 lives does to the 'Palestinian' side whose population is ostensibly equivalent to Israel's but whose real population is the entire Muslim population in the region, a figure with exceeds 100 million. More to the point, that population is increasing faster than Israel's so in a war of attrition predicated on the application of proportional response, Israel is guaranteed to be destroyed. The amount of damage caused to the Muslim populations in the region would be a dent at best.

It is in the interest of the Muslim leaders in the region to insist on proportional response and to convince the leaders of the Western democracies to accept its righteousness or morality. That in turn will convince the western leaders to pressure Israel to accept a philosophy that is directed towards Israel's extinction.

Hi VT2. I thought you might enjoy the Victor Davis Hanson article on the left. Dr. Hanson is a regular contributor to PJMedia and his opinion pieces are worth following

http://pjmedia.com/victordavishanson/it-was-the-power-stupid/

@Peter Shearer
Agreed again - and very well said.

I've started Alinsky's book - interesting so far..
Prior to starting it, I've only heard it used as a club to beat Obama over the head with, but Alinsky has a way or writing and there seems to be something worthwhile in the book, maybe only as a window into the Leftist mind, but interesting.

When I hear someone say "How are we any better than they are if we do what they do?" I see it as an example the Left using our morality against us.
And the Left combines that with the their tactic of using "selective enforcement", selective enforcement of secular laws, but also selective enforcement of MORAL laws and of every other means of suasion, and of shaping public opinion - like you said, Alinsky's fourth rule.

Those movies you refered to are good examples of the propaganda value of popular entertainment.
I'm no expert on movies and this may be a little OT but one of the most memorable and dramatic movies I can recall was "The Bedford Incident" with Richard Widmark from long, long ago. Now that you mention it ( and I've researched it a little bit ) I guess they did use that movie to paint the Defense Dept. in their favorite shade of crazy.

As to "proportional response", yes, it's a glaring tactic of the Lilipudlian Left to entangle and hobble us in every way they can.
Many of the tactics of the Left come out of the Soviet era, they were masters at propaganda and psychological warfare.
It was the Soviets who supported so many of the Arab/Muslim countries - and they taught them well.
This all leads me to wonder at the deeper connections between the Leftist Communists and the Islamists.
"Eurabia" is a revelation about those connections, so is "The Berlin-Bagdad Express" and so is "The Great Betrayal: The Memoirs of Ian Douglas Smith".
The big question I have is not how to oppose the Islamists and the Left but what's wrong with the West that it has been so easily infected by obviously bad ideology and why doesn't the West have an immune system that is able to fend off these types of attacks. And what changes have to be made to the West to make it immune to these attacks in the future?

Speaking of Hanson's article, all the Lefts "reasons" are really just excuses to advance their cause and to be thrown away or reversed when it suits them, don't expect honesty, sincerity, consistency, logic, or reason from the Left. Don't take anything they say at face value ( they always have a hidden agenda and ulterior motives ). Don't dignify anything they say with a presumption of sincerity. The arguments of the left are just levers and fulcrums that they use to move the center of discourse to Alinsky's next level.

None of the Lefts tactics would avail if the public was better educated, but most of the voting public suffers from the "JayWalking syndrome". It's the public motivated by emotion instead of reason. It's the Left appealing to a public that says "the important thing is to give me what I want, just give me what I want and I'll accept any argument that sounds even remotely pausible".

And all of this propaganda of the Left is so much more effective now that the MSM is really controlled by the Left, as much as Izvestia and Pravda were controlled by the Soviets in their day.

Well, we both seem to have come to the same conclusions from A to Z. Hopefully, that's a good thing.

About the only thing I can add is a little more on Hollywood and the left. I brought this up, among other things, in a previous post at Jihad Watch.

Hopefully there are some good points for you at that post but there are some additional links that may interest you. One is to PJMedia and an Article written by Ron Radosh the other is a link to an article referenced by Radosh.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/04/tunisia-islamic-supremacists-destroy-crosses-in-cemetery-smear-feces-on-church-fresco-demand-that-pr.html

If you've previously been to this Jihad Watch link, my apologies, I didn't see your name in any of the comments so I thought you might have missed the post.

Take care VT2. Have a nice day

@Peter Shearer

Speaking of Paul Weston, from what I've read from him so far, he seems to understand the problem of the Left and islam and he wants to take Britain and Europe in a much better direction.
People like Paul Weston give me hope.
A lot of his articles are here - JW readers might find them worth while.
http://paulweston101.blogspot.com/

I'm putting all of his articles on my Kindle.
I'm trying to build a complete library of pro Western Civilization, anti-jihad, anti-Left on my Kindle 3, it's so much nicer to read than a computer screen..
And I'd like to know that I have everything relevant to an understanding and a solution of the problem (estimated project completion date - 2076).

I just had time to skim your links and comments, study later.
Thanks.

Good link VT2. I was unaware of it but now that I am, I will be visiting it regularly.

You said I'm trying to build a complete library of pro Western Civilization, anti-jihad, anti-Left on my Kindle 3, it's so much nicer to read than a computer screen

I can help you with that and it won't cost you a cent. I have been collecting this kind of stuff from a time before 9/11.

I have a database with 344276 files (html, pdf, mp2,mp3,mp4, jpeg etc) all one way or another related to Islam, and Islam and the left. The database is huge (75 gigabytes) so you will need a computer with lots of free disk space to import the files but if you are interested I can copy the files to DVD and send them to you. If you have a dvd player on your computer that reads dual layer DVD's that would be helpful as that would cut down on the number of DVD's required for a complete copy.

The number of files (344276) in the database is a bit misleading because many articles appear in the database more than once depending on the topics of interest associated with the article or video or whatever. Even so, I think there would be at least 100,000 unique items available to you.

The database control is just the Microsoft Windows file folder structure so there should be nothing to get in your way of just copying whatever files interest you to your desktop computer.

To clarify, there is a parent folder "Islam and the West" and within that folder are dozens of subfolders each of which may contain dozens of sub-folders. The folders are just a way of associating related files. As an example under the parent folder "Islam and the West" there is a sub-folder called "Islamic Mindset" in that subfolder are several dozen sub-folders such as "Apostasy", "Bid'ha", "Blaming Non-Muslims", "Blasphemy" etc.

I have endeavoured to ensure that every possible categorical way of looking at Islam is handled by this structure. That means if you are interested in information on a specific topic you will find it all in one convenient folder. That is also why there is duplication of some items as many files are relevant to more than one topic of interest.

Anyway, if you are ever interested in the above let me know and I will send you a copy of what I have. As I said there would be no charge, I would be happy to accommodate you.

If and when you are interested, you may contact em at my email address: mhorram@rogers.com

Nice talking to yah VT2. Take care

Another thing that might interest you VT2 is the PoliWood series over at PJMedia. The series is dedicated to discussing the leftist agenda of the Hollywood crowd. It is hosted by Hollywood producer Lionel Chetwynd and Hollywood script writer Roger L. Simon. Simon is a former leftist who eventually saw the light and became a conservative and felt strongly enough about the dangers of the left that he helped create PJMedia a conservative blog site that has some of the brightest and most perceptive minds in the U.S. working for it.

The site approaches most if not every topic from a conservative perspective but that's okay by me.

Here is a little more on Roger L. Simon. It is a good indication that he speaks with authority when he criticizes the left in Poliwood and in his frequent opinion pieces at PJMedia.

http://pjmedia.com/rogerlsimon/ron-radosh-reviews-blacklisting-myself-in-the-national-review/

The latest Poliwood offering is located here:

http://www.pjtv.com/?cmd=mpg&mpid=103&load=6890

If you can't access it you can find it at YouTube here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gPWFk0DcSA&feature=g-all-u

Incidentally, some but not all of the 'back issues' of Poliwood are available at YouTube. It would be worth your while to do a search for them under the search string "Poliwood". These guys have a lot to tell you.