After getting physically attacked in Indonesia, Irshad Manji starts to realize that maybe it isn't as "moderate" as she thought

don't wonder. the word "love" as we know here in the west is different than the one in Islam. she is correct about love in Islam. that love in Islam had a different meaning and here are a few:
love in islam=hate the jews,hate the infidel,kill with impunity,suicide bobbing,kidnappings,raping a 9 year old girl... I think you get the gist of right?
M

LemonLime wrote:

"Zuhdi Jasser (along with a handful of others you could count on the left hand of a Muslim convicted of thievery) performs an equivalent function for many in the anti-Islam movement (such as it is)."

Performs an equivalent function for many in the anti-Islam movement? Who, explicitly?

Good question, awake. I suppose what LemonLime is saying is possible, but I can't think of any, let alone many, in the anti-Islam movement who try to use Jasser as representing mainstream Islam/Muslims. And this representation is supposed to satisfy an "endless hunger"?

"Performs an equivalent function for many in the anti-Islam movement? Who, explicitly?"

Been asleep at the switch, eh.

John C. Barile
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/05/pamela-geller-reviews-robert-spencers-did-muhammad-exist.html#comment-877053

Kinana of Khaybar
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/05/pamela-geller-reviews-robert-spencers-did-muhammad-exist.html#comment-877277

for starters.

I pointed out twice in that thread that this view of Jasser is mistaken and actually shows how successful, relatively speaking, are his stealth jihad tactics. No one bothered to comment. If it was an easy target like the buffoons Choudary or Reza Aslan, the JW commenters would have been all over that like ochre on hummus.

No, not asleep at the switch. Just pointing out the flaw in your sloppy comment. If, as Spencer posited, that Manji serves a purpose:

"Irshad Manji satisfies the endless hunger of the mainstream media for "moderate Muslims" that they can pretend are representative and mainstream..."

Then stated by your comment that Manji:

"...performs an equivalent function for many in the anti-Islam movement..."

Then the comment examples which you presented by JW commenters should follow that logic, and pretend that Manji and Jasser are actually mainstream and majority representative.

Unfortunately, neither example supported that assertion and in fact, illustrated the opposite sentiment.

Before you go searching the archives at JW, let me be more specific. Can you name a major player that exhibits that type of thinking, and not necessarily random comments from anonymous people in the JW forum?

yes. he feels free throw a jab.
M

It's true that neither of those 2 thought that Manji or Jasser was representative of Muslims at large. However, they did share one similarity w/ the MSM - just like the MSM wishes that a majority of Muslims were like them, the same sentiments were expressed by these 2.

Barile actually used the example of Faoud Ajami, but as both Hugh Fitzgerald and Debbie Schlussel have pointed out in the past, this was a person out to further the interests of his fellow Iraqi Shia - and in retrospect, succeeded. Problem w/ Jasser and Manji are that they tend to ignore the Islamic underpinnings of what the vast majority of Muslims believe, and it becomes compounded when people take them at face value.

No, I didn't claim that Jasser represented mainstream Islam or Muslims. (Nor did John C Barile). Nor have I ever claimed that Jasser, Manji, et al., represent mainstream Islam or Muslims. Nor do I have any "hunger" for such moderates/reformers; I'd rather see them leave Islam. I've noted that the statistics suggest to me there are about 5% of Muslim worldwide who reject sharia (according to opinion polls), and I've also noted that we can't rely on them.

Keep on making stuff up, LemonLime/Hesperado. I would also note that you said "many" in the anti-Islam movement have this endless hunger. You haven't even cited one yet. Are you going to cite many in the anti-Islam movement who have this hunger? Or will you just admit that you were wrong?

Infidel Pride wrote:

"It's true that neither of those 2 thought that Manji or Jasser was representative of Muslims at large. However, they did share one similarity w/ the MSM - just like the MSM wishes that a majority of Muslims were like them, the same sentiments were expressed by these 2."

The sentiment of wishful thinking, while wholly valueless in my estimation, is not the same shared by the MSM and the JW commenters. Wishing that most, many or even more Muslims be more like Manji and Jasser is not in itself problematic, unless you believe that both are actually covert jihadists. The difference is the MSM's continued prevalence to focus on this infininitesimal group as valuable and normative is. Neither commenter espoused that sentiment in concurrence with the MSM.

I have no illusions about Manji or Jasser, and I believe they are the biggest "victims" by their own self-deception about Islam based on their personal wishful thinking. I think the two JW commenters are also not lullled into any false sense of hope about them.

I agree with your estimation about Manji and Jasser and agree that both do more harm than good, yet I maintain that if many Muslims shared their personal disposition, we'd be in much better shape, but alas, the reality dictates that this is not the case at all.

That said, the distinction between the MSM and those two comments is clear and in my opinion, LemonLime has not adequately argued otherwise to this point. In fact, I assumed, maybe erroneously, that LemonLime was referring to prominent, public players in this movement, not JW commenters, so maybe a better question initially is who he deems as part of this movement.

IP,

"However, they did share one similarity w/ the MSM - just like the MSM wishes that a majority of Muslims were like them, the same sentiments were expressed by these 2."

Not true. I prefer that they left Islam, and I said so in that thread, and that has always been my position here. I was noting that from a pragmatic perspective it would be better if most Muslims were like Jasser and Ajami. That's not an endorsement of moderate Islam, which I reject, nor does this have anything to do with what LemonLime/Hesperado is claiming about "many" in the anti-Islam movement having this "endless hunger" for moderates that they can use to represent mainstream Islam.

awake,

"In fact, I assumed, maybe erroneously, that LemonLime was referring to prominent, public players in this movement, not JW commenters,"

I think that's an entirely reasonable assumption, which I made as well. By anti-Islam movement, that would include prominent or well-known people, bloggers, activists, etc., not mere anonymous commenters on a website. His mentioning me in this case is mischievous and reactionary, because he knows I don't hold the position he claims I hold.

Once again, LemonLime/Hesperado made an absurd, reckless, and baseless claim against the anti-Islam movement (or whatever one wants to call it), and to avoid having to either substantiate his claim or admit that he was wrong, he resorts to spurious personal attacks on those who requested that he support his claim.

LemonLime wrote:

"Pretend are mainstream", "wish were mainstream" -- same self-deception in the end that continues to hinder our general education about Muslims.

Another assertion, piled on top of your initial, yet thoroughly refuted assertion, LemonLime, and most egregious on your part. Your use of quotes, implying the direct identical comments of others, doesn't exist here on this thread. To put quotes around your paraphrasing of other's comments does not substantiate your initial, disproved assertion. It simply re-affirms your status as a disingenuous ankle-biter.

As far as your assertion and summary that those two comments were overtly incorrect:

"self-deception in the end that continues to hinder our general education about Muslims."

Is wholly unproven and inadequately argued as attributed to the commenters you referenced. In fact, I would argue that all those involved, are well-versed in their realistic knowledge of Islam.

Straw-men, as afforded by you. Even IP admitted so, albeit only to a point.

Kinana

If these 2 were to jettison Islam, it would be evidence that they have no illusions about islam, like an Ali Sina, Wafa Sultan or Ibn Warraq. However, as Ali demonstrated, there remains that element of wishful thinking - even among ex-Muslims - that most Muslims are wonderful people who're just sick of the mullahs. Even that needs to go. The only people I've read who are uncompromising in this regard are some people in Islam-Watch, like Meher Ali Khan, who's in the past supported the West getting rid of Muslims. But other than that, too many Muslims who actually gather the courage to jettison islam seem to belabor under the notion that most of their co-religionists are like them, despite personal evidence to the contrary (such as being shunned by family).

If, let's say hypothetically, 50% of Muslims worldwide, in every country, were to be like Jasser and Manji, what would that mean? It would mean that they'd stand up against the Islamic establishment in every country. However, if it came to a face-off and everyone found out that islamic doctrines stood against them, then what? They'd still not have the capabilities to reform Islam - the best they'd do is come up w/ a new sect, like the Ahmadiyas.

If most Muslims were to be like Meher Ali Khan, and jettison Islam and all its baggage, that would be a solution I'd happily embrace.

Not true. 'Pretend are mainstream' is nothing other than an exercise in self deception. 'Wish were mainstream' is wishing that the people who seem to be dissenters were sufficient in number for there to be a face-off.

If someone wishes that Mohammed had never been born, that Islam had never been spread, would you accuse that person of self-deception? However, if one pretends those things, it would be a valid accusation.

A reminder of what LemonLime actually claimed, and what he is now trying to avoid having to support:

Quoting Robert's comment about the mainstream media:

"Irshad Manji satisfies the endless hunger of the mainstream media for "moderate Muslims" that they can pretend are representative and mainstream..."

LemonLime then wrote, in response, switching the subject matter to the "anti-Islam movement":

"Zuhdi Jasser (along with a handful of others you could count on the left hand of a Muslim convicted of thievery) performs an equivalent function for many in the anti-Islam movement (such as it is)."

LemonLime hasn't supported his initial charge that "many" in the "anti-Islam movement" are claiming or pretending that Manji represents mainstream Islam. There may well be many such people in the anti-Islam movement (or whatever one wants to call it), but LemonLime simply hasn't identified any. Instead, he is engaging in distractions, deflections, and deceptions that have nothing to do with supporting what he actually claimed initially.

Joeblough, with all due respect, most parts of Dar-al-Islam are right now *turning back* from comparative moderation—including Indonesia.

The same thing is happening in Malaysia, and Turkey, and the Levant, and the Mahgreb, and sub-Saharan Africa. And, for the most part, among Muslims in the West, as well.

Of course, none of this comparative "moderateness" involved an actual reform of Islam—but that feels further away than ever at this moment.

Mostly, Irshad Manji is a draw for the ever-hopeful Infidels in the West, so they can tell themselves that there really is a moderate strain of Islam.

Muslims themselves pay little attention to "reformers" like Zuhdi Jasser and Irshad Manji—except when they are expelling the former from his Mosque, or physically attacking the latter...

Don't get me wrong, Joe—I would *love* to see a genuine, influential reformer of Islam emerge from the Muslim world—but most of the actual Muslim "reformers" are instead figures like the Wahhabis and the Muslim Brotherhood...

Your copious blather cannot obscure the fact that both John Barile and Kinana think Zuhdi Jasser is a truly moderate Muslim whom we can work with, and Kinana said if the vast majority of Muslims were like Jasser, "we would be satisfied", and he said of himself and John that "I think we are in agreement here". And John had said that "we need more Zuhdi Jassers..."

Nothing y'all can say obscures the fact that you are essentially putting lipstick on a pig. And, as usual, my most important point is lost in your sophistical fog -- namely, that a Zuhdi Jasser shows precisely the danger of the stealth jihadist Good Cop: by being one that is able to fool even the otherwise intelligent anti-jihad person.

The one saving grace in Kinana's post was his recognition of the unlikelihood of his desire that most Muslims would be like Jasser -- which, however, raises the question, if it's unlikely, why mention it? The accent in his post was on how good Jasser is, not on how useless he is -- i.e., the accent was in the wrong place.

LemonLime wrote:

"Your copious blather cannot obscure the fact that both John Barile and Kinana think Zuhdi Jasser is a truly moderate Muslim whom we can work with, and Kinana said if the vast majority of Muslims were like Jasser, "we would be satisfied", and he said of himself and John that "I think we are in agreement here". And John had said that "we need more Zuhdi Jassers...""

Copious blather?

For a second I thought you hadn't the stones to reply to your public thrashing here, but true to form, and realizing that this thread is soon to fall off the main page, you could not pass up the opportunity to try to get the last word in.

They are nothing more than desperate grabs, at weak reeds, by on obviously drowning man, however, and you have not adequatley demonstrated otherwise, still.

Good-standing allies like John and Kinana should take no offence to your continued ankle-biting. Like the frog on the scorpion's back across the river, as the story goes, that is simply what you must do, for you cannot do otherwise.

Regardless, I must say nitey-nite sweetheart. I'll see you soon. Sweet dreams.

LemonLime writes to awake:

"...the fact that both John Barile and Kinana think Zuhdi Jasser is a truly moderate Muslim whom we can work with,"

It's not a fact, because I never recommended that we work with Jasser (or others like him, e.g., Manji, etc.).

"...and Kinana said if the vast majority of Muslims were like Jasser, "we would be satisfied", and he said of himself and John that "I think we are in agreement here"."

What I said in that thread, in which I argued against the feasibility of any attempt at revival or reform of any form of Islam, was this:

"John,
I think we are in agreement there. That is, we prefer that Muslims would leave Islam, but pragmatically we would be satisfied if the vast majority of them were like Jasser and Ajami. Of course, most Muslims aren't likely to become Jasser-type moderates."

In other words, in the context of that thread, I prefer that they leave Islam and not attempt to revive or reform any form of Islam, but would practically settle for them dropping and opposing sharia, jihad, and barbaric Islamic traditions. (That, incidentally, would not stop me from arguing against Islam apologetics from such moderates). Interesting that LemonLime ignores what I prefer, and instead accuses me of "wishing" for the non-preferred item.

"Nothing y'all can say obscures the fact that you are essentially putting lipstick on a pig. And, as usual, my most important point is lost in your sophistical fog -- namely, that a Zuhdi Jasser shows precisely the danger of the stealth jihadist Good Cop: by being one that is able to fool even the otherwise intelligent anti-jihad person."

LemonLime has not demonstrated that Jasser is a stealth jihadist. A stealth jihadist is someone working, subtly or surreptitiously, to establish sharia and furthering jihad. Jasser appears to be working against both.

LemonLime is probably confusing apologetics with stealth jihad. The fact that someone engages in apologetics, as all the "moderates" do to some extent, does not mean he/she is a stealth jihadist.

Islam apologetics is indeed a problem that needs to be dealt with. I've been responding, in comments, to the likes of Jasser, Manji, et al., for years, refuting their apologetics for educational purposes.

"The one saving grace in Kinana's post was his recognition of the unlikelihood of his desire that most Muslims would be like Jasser-- which, however, raises the question, if it's unlikely, why mention it? The accent in his post was on how good Jasser is, not on how useless he is -- i.e., the accent was in the wrong place."

I said he was satisfactory, i.e., because he opposes jihad, sharia, and barbaric Islamic traditions, i.e., meets my minimum requirements. Preferred would be rejecting Islam.

Why did I mention it? I was responding to John C Barile and clarifying where I stood.

Now, after that detour, back to the original and as yet unsupported claim of LemonLime, which I've summarized here:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/05/after-getting-physically-attacked-in-indonesia-irshad-manji-starts-to-realize-that-maybe-it-isnt-as.html#comment-878321

LemonLime also wrote, regarding the use of the word pretend: ""Pretend are mainstream", "wish were mainstream" -- same self-deception in the end that continues to hinder our general education about Muslims."

There is a problem with this conflation of pretend and wish.

In Robert's original statement, he was referring to the mainstream media pretending that Manji et al. were representative of mainstream Islam. It simply wouldn't matter what the mainstream media wished, unless those wishes influenced their publishing and editorial decisions, actions, etc., regarding these alleged moderates. The mainstream media aren't merely wishing that Manji was mainstream or that the general public perceived her as mainstream; they are doing, and what they are doing is actually presenting Manji et al. to the public as somehow representative of a "moderate" or "liberal" Islam that is indeed a mainstream version of Islam. If one read nothing but mainstream media sources in the Anglosphere and Europe about Muslims and Islam over the past 11 years, and relied on those sources uncritically, one would indeed get a view of modern Islam that is the inverse of reality, i.e., that the majority of Muslims are moderates, and a small minority are extremist, fundamentalist, etc.

LemonLime's claim is that "many" people in the "anti-Islam movement" use Jasser to serve an equivalent function, i.e., to satisfy an "endless hunger" for "moderate Muslims" who "they can pretend are representative and mainstream". Again, it simply would not matter what the anti-Islam movement wished, if those wishes didn't influence their actions and words. This commits LemonLime to the claim that many in the anti-Islam movement are actually presenting Jasser as representative and mainstream. I'm not aware of anyone in the anti-Islam movement who is doing this.

Alternatively, in the absence of any effort to support this claim about the anti-Islam movement, LemonLime could drop the claim or revise it.

LemonLime suggests it's bad, indeed delusional, to wish for a state of affairs that is better the status quo. However, merely expressing that if the vast majority of Muslims were like Jasser et al. (i.e., opposing sharia, jihad, and barbaric Islamic traditions) things would be better than they are now, or even that we could be pragmatically satisfied, actually doesn't constitute a delusion. Idle talk, maybe, but not a delusion. Indeed, again, I argued specifically against any revival or reform of any form of Islam, and dismissed the probability of the vast majority of Muslims becoming like Jasser as unlikely.

Lastly, to help get LemonLime off of his distractive focus on me and put him back to the task of supporting his original claim, I am going to refer to LemonLime/Hesperado's own classification of who is in, and who is not in, the anti-Islam movement. According to Hesperado on his blog, I am not in, or not sufficiently in, the anti-Islam movement. Since Hesperado/LemonLime claims I am not (or not sufficiently) in the anti-Islam movement, I therefore look forward to him providing examples of those who are in it, in his attempt to support his original claim.

Kinana quoted me:

LemonLime writes to awake:

"...the fact that both John Barile and Kinana think Zuhdi Jasser is a truly moderate Muslim whom we can work with,"

And wrote:

It's not a fact, because I never recommended that we work with Jasser...

Earlier, I had linked to his comment that started all this, in which he wrote the following:

"...pragmatically we would be satisfied if the vast majority of them were like Jasser..."

So I guess being "pragmatically satisfied" with certain types of members of a group means you don't want to work with them. Gotcha.

First, you still haven't supported your initial claim.

Second, you write: "So I guess being "pragmatically satisfied" with certain types of members of a group means you don't want to work with them. Gotcha."

Yes, I don't want to work with Jasser et al. Pragmatically satisfied means for all practical purposes I'm not going to waste time attacking someone who opposes sharia, jihad, and barbaric Islam-related traditions. I'll refute his apologetics, but I'm not going to oppose his anti-sharia anti-jihad work, or peg him as a stealth jihadist unless I have evidence of that, and you haven't provided any to support your claim.

Now, back to your original claim: Are you going to support it, or not?