Lebanon: Priest abducted for baptizing Muslim woman whose father, a Muslim cleric, tortured her for converting to Christianity

He has been released, but the kidnapping is "part of an escalating pattern of violence against local Catholics" in Baalbek, the stronghold of Hizballah.

More information on this story. "Lebanese priest who baptized Muslim is abducted, then released," from CWN, May 10 (thanks to Twostellas):

A Lebanese priest who baptized a Muslim woman has been kidnapped and released.

The daughter of a Shiite cleric “said she was physically and psychologically tortured by her father for converting to Christianity three years ago, although she is a 24-year-old adult,” said Maronite Catholic Bishop Simon Atallah of Baalbek. “I have received an unconfirmed report that she had recently fled to an unknown destination after her father forced her to marry someone.”

The kidnappers thought that Father Walid Gharious knew the woman’s whereabouts and later released him. The nation’s president condemned the kidnapping.

According to the prelate, the kidnapped is part of an escalating pattern of violence against local Catholics.

“Last Wednesday, unknown assailants fired gunshots at the house of a priest from the Kairouz family in the town of Nabha, and a similar incident occurred on Sunday before the start of the municipal elections, when shots were fired at the Our Lady Church in Nabha,” he said.

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Islam is truly a pathetic religion that has no power to transform lives from with in, only an evil external works righteous theology that uses intimidation and violence to keep its adherents obeying thie god Allah

Just compare the life of Jesus Christ to the life of mohammed. Like night and day. Which would you want to be at the mercy of, mohammed or Jesus? I choose Jesus Christ.

Pathetic indeed is mohammedism. To go through life never questioning what you are being told, is such a tragedy. As a Christian, I question everything, investigate what the Bible tells me, to see if it matches up with the condition of humankind. Believe me, the Bible is the ONLY sacred text that describes man to a tee, and offers a solution that is completely foreign to us. What? We are sinners? We don't DO ANYTHING to receive salvation? It's already been done for us by Christ's crucifixion and resurrection? We only accept the gift that God has offered? But...but, I feel like I should be doing something to make me worthy in God's eyes.

That is why I believe the Gospel. That is why I claim the Lord Jesus Christ as my own.

Pray for those enslaved by mohammedism, that they may be brought into His glorious light.

Stand fast,

Although I'm not a Christian, I completely support your comments. Christianity is a religion I can respect. Jesus is, as you suggest, the polar opposite of Mohammed. I believe it is a tragedy that so many people are caught in the web of Islam.

Although many Muslims are wonderful people, those who are most swayed by certain Islamic teachings are going to cause a great deal of misery.

I was born and raised a muslim, i do not belive on any god chritainity, islam or otherwise. however if I am wrong and there is a god out there, he sent Islam down here to f... with us all and make our lives miserable.
M

Every one knows what is islam and how muslims behave, especially in these turbulent times. But why the clowns in the Church have that uncontrollable urge to convert? Do not they know they put the lives of the people who trust them in danger? I have pointed out many a time here that christian missionaries go any length to increase the numerical strenth of their adherents. We see that cruel joke in India on a regular basis. (But no lives in danger because we are only hindus). They convert the poor, uneducated masses with bribing, promising cure for their ailments and what not?! If they can cure people from physical ailments, why should there be hospitals and doctors in christian majority nations? Still people here convert due to extreme poverty since Church knows Jesus and truth can be sold as commodities.

To add to your last sentence …

and... if that God sends Islam to mess with us, he does not deserve to be pray to …

He could take his orders … his endless threats … his unrealistic conditions … his warped kind of love … his sick kind of logic …..and shove them to no end …

Innocent prisoners …always find a way to break out …

"Just compare the life of Jesus Christ to the life of mohammed."
How can we compare Light to Darkness, Life to Death, Holiness to Sinfulness?
Nevertheless, the Quran itself made this comparison, all muslims have to do is ... READ!
http://crossmuslims.blogspot.com/2011/05/saint-and-sinner.html

Iranian Christian pastor Youcef Nadarkhani, who has become the face of religious persecution throughout the world after being arrested for his beliefs in Oct. 2009, has issued a letter to persecution aid group Present Truth Ministries (PTM).

Read more: http://www.maghrebchristians.com/2012/05/10/youcef-nadarkhani-pens-letter-to-supporters-expresses-perseverance-faith-in-god/#ixzz1uUa8sP4R

Youssef

Eastern Christians such as Orthodox, Melkites, and Maronites usually do not proselytize, as they well know the consequences if the Muslim community found out. However, Christianity is still the dominant faith of the Lebanese people, and Lebanon is a nation nominally governed by a Christian President, even if it is being occupied by Hezbollah.

Christianity is different from all other religions. First, in truth Chrisitiaity is a relationship with the living God. There is a religion part to Christianity, but it is flawed, because religion is made by man and man's ideas get in the way most of the time. Jesus came to fulfill the law of God, so that men and women could again have relationship with a loving Creator.

God had a purpose in creating mankind and it was to have a relationship with them. When man and woman broke the relationship with God, by their sin, God had to punish them, but He wanted to restore the relationship. That's why Jesus, God's son came into the world. Jesus lived a sinless life, and was innocent when he was put to death on the cross; his resurrection was God the Father's seal of approval. God knew mankind could not save themselves, He knew they needed a Saviour.

There isn't a religion out there that can save, salvation is only in a relationship with Jesus the Saviour. Salvation is a free gift from God purchased by Jesus' death and resurrection.

Jesus said religion kills. Ask the God of Abraham to reveal the truth to you. The truth will set you free.

Lakshmanan seems to think that all who convert to Christianity from another faith only do so because they are somehow bribed, tricked or forced; that they are helpless victims without the capacity to think or act for themselves or make up their own minds.

Does he at bottom *approve* of the Muslim killing of apostates, and also the Muslim killing of anyone who offers an alternative belief system to Muslims? But what then happens to the idea of freedom of speech and freedom to choose - AND TO CHANGE - the belief system into which one happens to have been born and brought up? Does he believe that if you are born into a Muslim family, or a Hindu family, or a Christian family, or an atheist family, nobody has any right to ever present you with - in word and/ or deed - an alternative, and that you DO NOT and MUST NOT have the freedom to leave your belief system of origin, should you so decide?

It is perfectly possible that this woman - once a Muslim, now a Christian - found out about Christianity all by herself: by observing the behaviour of Christians in her neighbourhood (since there *are* Christians in Lebanon, however subdued their visible presence), and perhaps by listening to Christian radio broadcasts or finding and reading Christian writings. And I wouldn't mind betting that the priest - being a priest from a dhimmi Christian community who would be well aware of the danger faced not just by himself and his whole community, but by her as a declared apostate from Islam - was very, very reluctant to baptise her; that it was *she* seeking him out, begging, pleading, insisting, rather than the reverse.

The other factor he rules out altogether is one that forms part of many testimonies presented by Muslims who have abandoned Islam and converted to Christianity: direct 'supernatural' encounter with Yeshua of Nazareth, in visions or dreams; answered prayers; inexplicable healings. The sceptics here present can pooh-pooh this all they like; unfortunately for them, **it happens**: there are a significant number of ex-Muslims who adamantly testify that they are Christians at least in part because of the impossible-to-ignore nature of these encounters with the person of Jesus, encounters which effortlessly 'cracked the wall' of their Islamic cult programming.

For examples of what happens when the God of the Christians walks through the wall to break a Muslim out of their spiritual prison, see Mark Gabriel's 'Islam and Terrorism', Gulshan Esther's 'The Torn Veil' and Bilquis Sheikh's 'I Dared to Call Him Father'. There are others, but these are the most readily accessible.

The common thread is that these 'supernatural' experiences of Jesus, of Yeshua, of the Biblical God, are not 'irrational' or bizarre; they are not about warm fuzzies or formless ecstasies; they have form and content, words are spoken, and people who have had them are simply unable to deny their reality any more than one can deny that it is daylight when the sun is in the sky, and have been prepared to endure rejection and threats of death, beatings and abuse from their Muslim family, and flight into exile, rather than renounce the One who has called them by name.

From the article:

'The daughter of a Shiite cleric “said she was physically and psychologically tortured by her father for converting to Christianity three years ago..'.

That's in Lebanon.

But it also happens within the modern Western world.

There are people who have apostasised from Islam in Italy who live in hiding, for fear of the sharia-enforcers; Magdi Cristiano Allam, who could 'come out' publicly because he has a well-paid job and sympathetic employers prepared to help foot the bill for his personal security, has spoken of a 'church of the catacombs', the estimated several thousand ex-Muslims, now Catholics, who live in hiding in Italy.

Patrick Sookhdeo, founder of the 'Barnabas Fund' which advocates on behalf of persecuted Christians - who are largely found within the Islamic world, though they also suffer terribly in North Korea, and suffer sporadic persecution from Mao's successors in China - converted from Islam to Christianity in London, in the 1960s. His family were 'moderate Muslims'; rather than killing him as sharia prescribes, they simply disowned him and threw him out into the street in the clothes he stood up in.

'Hannah Shah', another ex-Muslim who was born within the UK and converted to Christianity as a young adult, is author of a book called 'The Imam's Daughter'. She fled her family because of continuous and sustained abuse (including rape) that she had endured from her father; as a young adult, she became a Christian; when her family found out, her father sent a mob of Muslims to her house, armed with axes and clubs.

http://www.newenglishreview.org/blog_display.cfm/blog_id/20010

Sunday, 15 March 2009
My imam father came after me with an axe

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article5907458.ece

From The Sunday Times

March 15, 2009

My imam father came after me with an axe
Hannah Shah had been raped by her father and faced a forced marriage. She fled, became a Christian and now fears for her life

More on her story:

http://www.newenglishreview.org/blog_direct_link.cfm/blog_id/20277
Hannah Shah, The Imam’s Daughter


And there are others. There was recently a documentary made about it, in the UK; the many ex-Muslims, now Christians, who have had to change their names, flee their families, go into hiding, and must constantly look over their shoulders for the 'hit-man' coming to get them, exactly like defectors from an organised crime syndicate might have to do. And all this IN THE UK. In an ostensibly-free, majority nonMuslim country.

See this article from The Times.

Muslim apostates cast out and at risk from faith and family
By Anthony Browne (Times Online)
February 5, 2005


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article510589.ece?token=null&offset=12

"THE first brick was thrown through the sitting room window at one in the morning, waking Nissar Hussein, his wife and five children with a terrifying start. The second brick went through his car window.

"It was a shock, but hardly a surprise. The week before, another brick had been thrown through the window as the family were preparing for bed in their Bradford home. The victim of a three-year campaign of religious hatred, Mr Hussein’s car has also been rammed and torched, and the steps to his home have been strewn with rubbish.

"He and his family have been regularly jostled, abused, attacked, shouted at to move out of the area, and given death threats in the street. His wife has been held hostage inside their home for two hours by a mob. His car, walls and windows have been daubed in graffiti: “Christian bastard”.

"The problem isn’t so much what Mr Hussein, whose parents came from Pakistan, believes, but what he doesn’t believe. Born into Islam, he converted eight years ago to Christianity, and his wife, also from Pakistan, followed suit."

"Mr Hussein, a 39-year-old hospital nurse in Bradford, is one of a growing number of former Muslims in Britain who face not just being shunned by family and community, but attacked, kidnapped, and in some cases killed.

"There is even a secret underground network to support and protect those who leave Islam. "

And I say to Lakshmanan above: why should they have to suffer this? Is it their fault, or the fault of those who offered them an alternative to Islam? NO, it is the fault of the Mohammedan Mob, that demands the right to convert others - even by kidnapping and rape - yet refuses its own members the right to leave and refuses to others the right to present Muslims with something other than Islam.

From the same article:

Yasmin, who was raised in the North of England, has been forced out of her town once, and is now trying to resist being chased out again.

"Brought up in a Muslim family, she converted after having a vision of Jesus when she gave birth to her youngest son, and was baptised in her thirties..

“My family completely disowned me. They thought I had committed the biggest sin — I was born a Muslim, and so I must die a Muslim. When my husband found out, he totally disowned my sons. One friend tried to strangle me when I told him I was converting,” she said.

"We had bricks though our windows, I was spat at in the street because they thought I was dishonouring Islam. We had to call the police so many times. I had to go to court to get an injunction against my husband because he was inciting others to attack me.”

'She fled to another part of Britain, but the attacks soon started again as locals found out about her.

“I wasn’t going to leave again,” she said, adding that it was the double standards of her attackers that made her most angry. “They are such hypocrites — they want us to be tolerant of everything they want, but they are intolerant of everything about us.”


Please stay on topic and tone down the preaching. That is not what this site is for. Thanks in advance.

Ima

"However, Christianity is still the dominant faith of the Lebanese people..."

Sadly this is no longer true. Islam has Jihaded its way to being the dominant religous demographic group in Lebanon.

It would be surprising if in ten years this trend of more Muslims and fewer Christians does anything other than accelerate its pace.

That said, predicitng the future is a fool's game. What we see today we believe we will see tomorrow. We often lack the imagination or the ability to see a different tomorrow.

None of us know what might happen to reverse these sickening trends,trends seen everywhere with Mudslimes increasing their demogrpahic profiles as far as the eye can see.

But today is not tomorrow. Tomorrow may surprise us with an unforeseen black swan flying in from the distant horizon. A black swan targeting the Mudslim black plague. And a black swan bringing hope for the good people for whom the cruel Mudslime plague is fast upon them.

"Allahu Akbar" they shouted out as they cut off Daniel Pearl's head. Blacker than black, indeed.

Certainly Muslims do have a demographic majority in Lebanon, but if you count the worldwide Lebanese Diaspora, you will see that the majority of Lebanese are overwhelmingly Christian.

You are rather arrogantly assuming that people only convert to another faith for the *material* benefits that they might get. I expect *some* of them do, I have heard of 'rice Christians' in China, for example.

However, many do *not*. They sincerely believe in their new faith, and are prepared to *suffer* for it. This woman withstood *torture* - if she had only converted because of the church access to medicines, or some such thing, I'd bet a judicious application of *pain* would have quickly turned that over. Not only that, but she has apparently run away from her 'father'.

The priest involved was captured, and for all we know, and I wouldn't be surprised, (although the article doesn't say that) *tortured* in order to reveal her whereabouts.

The fact that these people stick to their faith in the face of such persecution is evidence that their reasons for converting were not venal, and I must say I think your implication that they were is an insult to them, and to the human spirit.

Christians in the whole world should use their condition for challenging the apostasy inhuman rule which can be seen in Islamic sharia and try to support Iranian Christians by broadcasting accurate news about Nadarkhani from valid sources.

Read more: http://www.maghrebchristians.com/2012/05/11/youcef-nadarkhani-immediate-release-the-request-of-iranian-christians-and-the-role-of-christian-world-community/#ixzz1uYB7GAa6

Youssef

Thanks to all those who replied. I am not saying each and every one is bribed. I am not sending you information from newspaper reports. In my hindu surroundings, suddenly a poor man changes his religion. An uneducated woman with meagre income has become christian. We even know who are behind such attempts. As far as India is concerned christianity is a business. They conduct meetings, bring people, photograhh and videos are arranged and they send them to western countries - probably to those involved in prozlytisation. In turn they get money for their service. Poor men who get converted by meagre bribe remains poor. The persons who have made conversion as their business pocket the large sum received from the western nations. One young man in early twenties told me that christians compelled them to visit church and pray. He did and got involved. After some time, the over-seers told them to pluck the plant at the entrance of their home so that one of the traces of his hindu past is eliminated. He got agitated and stopped visiting church. We Hindus pray, plants (Tulsi plant - I do not know english equivalent) treat cows which give us milk more than our mother and worship, worship a number of trees, sun, river and even cobra.We even pray Lord Vishnu in the PIG form (muslims excuse) We lowly Hindus do not suffer from One Prophet and One Book dependence. Many holy books we have and many many saints to worship. Hindus believe GOD takes human form or any form when it is required.

Because, I am watching what is happening around me I am expressing my views here. We are perturbed by the developments but not worried because our number is too big to bother immediately and we believe GOD will not let down the religion that majority of Indians follow. 25 major languages are there in India. In 750 years of muslim rule all the 25 languages were blessed with great saints from time to time, composing hymns in local languages,who by their high standards of living captured the imagination of the public thus helping the survival of Hinduism. Last of the well known saints of India were Sri Ramakrishna Paramhans and Swamy vivekananda from West Bengal.

WAY. Well said. Thank you.
L seems to think that a conversion experience is really a poor and uneducated person being influenced by a salesman selling tickets for a train ride.

You wrote: "One young man in early twenties told me that christians compelled them to visit church and pray".

Really? 'Compelled'. How? With a gun to their heads? By grabbing them and dragging them in and tying them to the pews and locking the doors so they couldn't get out? Be specific.

If physical compulsion or bribes or 'do this or you won't get food or medicine or a loan to start a business' was employed, then that is NOT real Christianity. Jesus NEVER did that sort of thing and neither did his disciples. Some of the people he healed or fed did not become his followers; nothing happened to them.

At all times - one can see this throughout the Gospels and the book of Acts and the letters of St Paul, which are *the* authoritative accounts of the practice of Jesus and the apostles, and which are what Christians are supposed to imitate - were perfectly free to say No and walk away. Any 'Christian' group that does not permit people to leave freely, or that in the past punished people for not converting or for leaving the church, is *also* not truly Christian for they are not following Jesus' example.

I observe that this young man of whom you speak, who has now stopped going to church and I assume has returned to Hindu belief and practice, does not seem to be afraid that Christian 'hit-men' will come sneaking after him to kill him for apostasising.

Whereas if he had said the Shahada and become a Muslim, and then thought better of it, and stopped going to mosque, right now he would be looking over his shoulder for the lurking assassin every single day.

L stay on topic.
The poor persons in India who have not understood what it is that they have done by superficially "joining" a Christian religion, can be easily led back into their Hindu faith. A Christian who made a mistake of "joining" the Hindu faith, can go back to their Christian group again.
The topic is Islam. Tell us about Hindus who convert to the Muslim ideology, realize their mistake and return to Hinduism. How does it go in India with Islam? How do India's citizens get along with Bangladesh and Pakistan's citizens? As far as I am aware, a former Christian can go be a Hindu at any time and anywhere and vice versa. How about Muslims? Can they switch around easily and have "free choice" rights?

Hi DDA. Hi Laskmanan. I am replying to both of you at the same time.

Lakshmanan said the following "Do not they know they put the lives of the people who trust them in danger? I have pointed out many a time here that christian missionaries go any length to increase the numerical strenth of their adherents."

That is a very serious charge and I accept it as a valid one.

Your reply (in part) DDA was: "Lakshmanan seems to think that all who convert to Christianity from another faith only do so because they are somehow bribed, tricked or forced; that they are helpless victims without the capacity to think or act for themselves or make up their own minds."

I think Lashkmanan does have a point DDA which you should take into consideration.

Your belief that those converted can think and act for themselves will be true sometimes and not others. None of us have any way of judging the intelligence and/or suggestibility of those converted. Only the one doing the conversion can do that. We have no idea how naive a convert may be, meaning we have no knowledge of how much of a danger that person understands themselves to be in. The fact that they may hide their conversion is not necessarily proof that they understood anything about their danger. For instance, my brother converted to Mormonism when he was around 14 and he kept it secret. I'm not sure why, because my father and mother were not going to do anything nasty to him. As it turned out my parents accepted his decision with no problem once he told them.

We can assume that the proselytizers have a better chance of knowing the ramifications of the conversion because they would have been taught such issues as part of their ministry. This knowledge, places an obligation on them to ensure that new converts are safe or at least protected in some manner by the Christian community.

I dealt with this in a post at an old Jihad Watch article that dealt with a story about a Ugandan Muslima minor who was converted to Christianity and was left to rot, almost literally. [My interpretation]

I got very lucky in this post because Graven Image noticed it and commented and as a result most of the important moral and ethical issues got addressed. I still stand 100% on what I said at that post.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2011/08/uganda-father-tortures-daughter-for-converting-from-islam-to-christianity.html

Laskmanan, you said in your last comment "Because, I am watching what is happening around me I am expressing my views here." I agree with you. What you see with your eyes and hear with your ears are your best guides but you should also be willing to defer to knowledge and experience of others especially when those individuals have nothing to gain in sharing their expertise.

It sounds like your experience or perceived experience with Christian missionaries was a bad one and that is regrettable. Had the missionaries done their work properly, you would have been made aware of a wholly new and completely wonderful way of understanding the world. That is not to say that I expect you would have converted; but, it is to say that you would at least have had the chance of doing so IF you felt it was right for you.

Conversion should be the result of one's feeling of being called by the Christian GOD. It is not the result of a need for material things.

So, perhaps you can listen to the voice of experience as expressed by Dumbledore's Army and Jan and accept that those who convert to Christianity do so because their souls are called to GOD rather than to their tummies.

Jan put the case to you most strikingly when she said "They sincerely believe in their new faith, and are prepared to *suffer* for it. This woman withstood *torture*

Lest you think that is an anecdotal comment, remember the poor Ugandan girl in the link that I provided. That girl also underwent extreme torture. The most amazing thing is she never spoke against her father for his atrocities. Rightly or wrongly, I assume that means that at least at some level she forgave him. That in itself is a very Christian thing to do.

It is unfortunate that the link provided in that Jihad Watch article was changed slightly. In its original form, there was a picture of this girl as she was found after the torture. I can tell you for sure if you looked at it you would cry. Perhaps that is why it has been removed from the news story. Possibly Dumbledore's Army has a link that shows the bloody mess this girl was in. She often pulls 'a rabbit out of the hat' regarding Internet links.

The reason I would have preferred that you see the picture is so you could see the FAITH of this little girl. Anyone who could withstand what this girl withstood and still have her faith, is a true Christian. I think she puts many of us to shame. As Christ himself said: "Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."

You should also consider the following comment by Dumbledore's Army: "direct 'supernatural' encounter with Yeshua of Nazareth, in visions or dreams; answered prayers; inexplicable healings. The sceptics here present can pooh-pooh this all they like; unfortunately for them, **it happens**: there are a significant number of ex-Muslims who adamantly testify that they are Christians at least in part because of the impossible-to-ignore nature of these encounters with the person of Jesus, encounters which effortlessly 'cracked the wall' of their Islamic cult programming."

The best example I can think of to support what DDA has said Laskmanan is Sam Solomon who was an Islamic jurist, authorized to issue fatwa's who not only became Christian but became a Christian Minister. This is about as big a turnaround as anyone could ever make. Below is a link to an article on Sam Solomon. As the article says: "The man he had been speaking with, out of fear of personal persecution, was at first reluctant to help. But something, which Solomon now believes was God, drove him to acquire -- and eventually, read, study and absorb -- the biblical text."

The full article is here:
http://www.reporternews.com/news/2008/sep/24/freedom-of-religion-cost-scholar-much/

Solomon is also a civil rights crusader and an author of several books and articles dedicated to counter-stealth-jihad. He also acts as advisor to various parliamentarians in the European Union regarding things Islamic.

Perhaps, Laskmanan you might want to reconsider your position a little. I am not discounting your experience with Christianity but I do think if you look at it again while trying to ignore your previous negative experiences, you might be able to see the magnificent world that Sam Solomon discovered.

By the way, I'm not trying to convert you. I am a non-denominational Christian and am just as happy to see you being a Hindu as practicing any other religion (except Islam of course). I spent a lot of time reading the Mahabharata and Ramayan and those books gave me a whole new perspective on the world (but I did stay a Christian). You may find the New and Old Testaments can do the same for you as you still remain a Hindu.

Actually, your name just brought up a couple of questions. Is your name in any way related to one of the main characters in the Ramayan? As I recall, Lakshmana was one of the younger brothers of Rama in that epic. If the answer is yes, what is the grammatical meaning of the final 'n' in your name?

OT

Peter

thank *you* for that link with the story of Sam Solomon.

I know of some of his work. There is a book on hijra or Islamic migration "Modern Day Trojan Horse: The Islamic Doctrine of Immigration", co-authored with one Elias Al-Muqdis, is on my long must-get list.

He also helped English lawyer Kathryn Wakeling produce a very handy document which sets out all the contrasts between Islamic sharia and English common law, in tabular form, suitable for busy politicians, as a 'briefing paper' for the House of Lords in the UK when Malcolm Pearson Earl of Rannoch was to ask a Question in the House. The pdf I originally had for this doesn't work any more, but I think I have seen another poster here providing a different link to the same document, from time to time - keep your eyes open.

And Mr 'Solomon' is very clear about the military/ militant function of the mosque.


http://www.newenglishreview.org/blog_direct_link.cfm/blog_id/28331

Friday, 2 July 2010
What is a Mosque? Vlad Tepes Interview with Sam Solomon

http://www.newenglishreview.org/blog_direct_link.cfm/blog_id/28874
Saturday, 31 July 2010
What is a Mosque? An Interview with Sam Solomon

by Jerry Gordon'.

What it says in that link that you, Peter Shearer, provided, about his having been an Islamic jurist, adds considerable weight to the work he has produced. He was not just an ordinary Muslim-in-the-street; he was someone who knew the Sharia inside out and back to front.

You are welcome DDA. Sam Solomon is a personal favourite of mine. I actually learned something important from listening to him talk against Islam. When he speaks Arabic and quotes the Qur'an it is almost hypnotic I actually LIKED listening to him, as bad as that sounds. When he does the English translation I go back into my anti-Islam mode.

I can't find anything on this and I'm hoping you might have a link or know of a book that deals with this. Is it possible that the actual 'poetry' of the Qur'an has something in it that is akin to mind control or at least is effective in making the listener drop his guard and thereby be more receptive while listening to lunacy?

The great change in Solomon's voice when he switches between Arabic and English suggests there is something going on. By the way, I'm not saying Solomon is intentionally doing some sort of mind control, only that he has preserved the 'affectation' when he quotes the Qur'an.

By the way, although I am very anti-Obama I do understand something he said in one of his books regarding the sound of Arabic. He said something to the effect that the most beautiful thing he heard was the call to prayer each morning.

That has been used as one of the proofs of his being Muslim but I think that is not the case. Years ago, a British composer named David Fanshawe produced a 'Mass' called African Sanctus. In it he tried to incorporate all the musical styles of African music into a unified whole. I love this piece and when I first heard it, I thought the call to prayer was the most beautiful part of the 'Mass' I just checked at Wikipedia and there is an article on African Sanctus there. In that article it says:

"A key moment in the conception of African Sanctus came at the beginning of Fanshawe's 1969 journey, in Egypt. Sitting in a Christian church he heard the muezzin of a nearby mosque calling the faithful to prayer, and imagined this beautiful sound in counterpoint with Western choral harmony"

I have a feeling that even the call to prayer has something 'hidden' in it that makes it attractive (when it shouldn't be.) I have to wonder if Frank Herbert was referring to this idea in Dune, when he talks about the Bene Gesserit and their 'voice of command.'

As Wikipedia says in its article on the Bene Gesserit regarding this ability:

"Bene Gesserit are trained in what they call "the Voice" — a means "to control others merely by selected tone shadings of the voice."[14] By modulating the subtleties of her voice, a Bene Gesserit can issue commands on a subconscious level, compelling obedience in others that they cannot resist, whether they are consciously aware of the attempt or not. "

A bit of a stretch perhaps but the entire Dune universe seems to be some extrapolation of what the world would be like in 10,000 years if Islam wins.

Getting back to Solomon, you may be familiar with the following interview he did with Michael Coren and Ba'at Yeor a couple of years ago. If you aren't, you are in for a treat. My favourite part of the interview was Coren making a possible P/C slip by commenting on the 'beauty of the Qur'an' and Solomon taking him to task for it. If I remember correctly Solomon replied "What beauty Michael?"

Hmmm. I just checked the links I was about to give you and they have been removed from YouTube. Apparently there have been some third party complaints about copyright infringment. I did find a 10 minute segment from the show in question. It's still worth a look if you haven't seen it. It does include the "What beauty?" comment by Solomon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSglMCYFwX4&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PL5840CC4A888B8C7F

By the way, I have the whole interview which also includes Ba'at Yeor. If you don't have it and are interested in getting it, let me know. There are five separate video segments involved each about 40 megabytes or so in size. That's too big to go as email attachments even if I send them singly. If you know of a site that allows me to upload the files so you can download them that would work.
Anyway, its an open offer so feel free to ask any time.

Nice talking you ya DDA. Have a nice weekend.

Interesting what you were speculating about the Quran.

(I've read 'Dune' by the way.)

That bit about the 'voice of command' made me think of the 'Voice of Saruman' in Tolkien's Lord of the Rings. I don't mean the movies, I mean the book. Ever read it?

I think Tolkien may have been getting at something similar to what the author of Dune was imagining.

As for the 'beauty' of Quranic poetry: I wonder whether the texts of the Sira and the sahih Hadith sound similar, when read in Arabic? Or whether it's only the Quran that has the 'hypnotic' incantatory quality - like a black magician's spell??

And: poison may be served in a jewelled cup. A poisonous mushroom may taste sweet going down. Doesn't mean it won't kill you...

I think that in the modern world - and this is, again, something that Tolkien mentions - we have forgotten that sometimes Evil can appear Beautiful, or Seductive, 'the devil can disguise himself into an angel of light'.

Thanks for that youtube link. I hadn't heard of this man before, and it's always good to hear about islam from the horse's mouth, so to speak.

I note in the clip he is in shadow; has he been the victim of threats, like so many apostates ?

I also have read Dune, your comment about the Dune universe is interesting, clearly the Fremen are fictionalised arab muslims - the empire of Muad'dib an islamicised horror universe. 'Spice' = oil ?

OT :Thanks for the title of that book, ''Ideological Jihad''. I've just been on Amazon and ordered it; I'm looking forward to reading it.

Hi DDA, thanx for the reply.

You said, "That bit about the 'voice of command' made me think of the 'Voice of Saruman' in Tolkien's Lord of the Rings."

Doh!! Homerus Simpsonus sum! The Lord of the Rings is one of my favourite books, I've lost count of how many time I've read it. I should have thought of Saruman long before I thought of the Bene Geserit of Dune.

In L.O.T.R. Saruman seems to be using something akin to gravitas (as opposed to magic) for his use of 'the voice'. J. Michael Straczinski talked about gravitas in one of his many commentaries for the Babylon 5 DVD series. If I remember correctly, he was talking about choosing actors that have a certain quality of weight or depth in their voice that gives them the aura of sanctity or truth with respect to the audience. Perhaps that is what Tokien and Herbert are talking about and what I think Solomon and many others do when they recite from the Qur'an. That might explain why Solomon slips back to his regular voice when he's finished with the passage. Doing so increases the contrast and thereby heightens the gravitas of the recitation.

By the way, if you haven't read 'The Silmarillion' you should. I think you might like the premise of the story. It was an unfinished work by Tolkien which was taken over by his son (I think) whose literary abilities were far below those of Tolkien. This book provides the theological superstructure behind L.O.T.R. and in my mind that superstructure is quite beautiful and deserved to have been completed by a far better author than Tolkien's son.

As for the 'beauty' of Quranic poetry: I wonder whether the texts of the Sira and the sahih Hadith sound similar, when read in Arabic? Or whether it's only the Quran that has the 'hypnotic' incantatory quality - like a black magician's spell??

What a great question! I hadn't thought about that, mainly because I've never heard Solomon go outside the Qur'an when he acts as an expert on Islam or when he preaches to Christian congregations about the dangers of Islam. I think I'm going to hunt down more of his videos on YouTube to see if I can find any examples along the lines you are asking. If the answer to your first question is, "yes it does", then I would assume that indicates there is some sort of 'psychological' trick in the method of speaking (like gravitas) rather than something hidden in the poetry itself, as brought out by the imams. Troubling thought.

Evil can appear Beautiful, or Seductive, 'the devil can disguise himself into an angel of light'

This I think is the real truth about evil. Almost all Hollywood and horror authors have it wrong. Evil does not appear ugly (outwardly). It is beautiful to the eye and that is what misleads. For example Lucifer, the Latin name applied to Satan or Samael, means 'light bearer' and is a reference to the planet Venus as it rises in the dawn. This was intended to be a reference to his physical beauty. In The Silmarillion Melkor or Morgoth (Tolkien's Satan) and Sauron are both physically beautiful (at first.) Also, in the Silmarillion, Luthien, the most beautiful of all the elves is given the honorific Morningstar (Venus) in recognition of that beauty.

Anyway, nice talking to you DDA. If you ever do run across anything along the lines of 'vocal seduction as it relates to the Qur'an' would you please pass it on to me? So far, I haven't found anyone who has written anything about this. I may have to wait for Sam Solomon to return to Canada so I can ask him what he thinks.

Speaking of Sam Soliman and Canada, just in case you aren't aware, there is a set of videos on YouTube that contain a talk by him when he visited Ottawa (June 2010). Come to think of it Bat Ye'or also did a talk with him. The links are:

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-tvqMKcV2Q
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4erU8qWqc4&feature=relmfu
Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjEpCG6RtQo&feature=relmfu
Part 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0kKv0XtRb0&feature=relmfu
Part 5: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kirrJ8VpC0w&feature=relmfu

The audio isn't the greatest due to echo and the audience shuffling papers etc but you should be able to make out most of what was said.

There is a bit more on this conference here: http://vladtepesblog.com/?p=23672
and here: http://jewishottawa.com/page.aspx?id=221567

Anyway, as always, nice talking to yah DDA. Thanx for the ideas. Talk to you soon and have a nice day.

Hi Jan, you are welcome. I'm glad you were introduced to Mr. Solomon, he is a countryman of yours and he is doing great work. He is also the perfect example of why Islam doesn't want Muslims to read the Bible.

It is obvious that whoever spends a lifetime contending with a god of hate, of revenge, of murder, and of an afterlife of debauchery will find that god completely lacking once he reads about the GOD of love, of compassion, of forgiveness and of an afterlife of spiritual and moral significance. Apostasy is the most likely result as was the case with Sam Solomon.

You said, "I note in the clip he is in shadow; has he been the victim of threats, like so many apostates ?"

Yes, he was. He was under imminent threat because not only was he an apostate, who converted to Christianity, and became a minister of Christianity but also he started a campaign against Islam itself. Armed with his expertise in that 'religion' he became one of the greatest dangers to Islam and as such was viewed as 'Public Enemy #1'.

At the start of the show, from which the clip was taken, Michael Coren went to great effort to explain that Solomon was under serious threats of being murdered and that keeping him in the shadows was not a gimmick [the show's topic was 'A New Dark Age'.]

Above, I provided 5 links to DDA. In link 2 you will find Solomon's talk. Prior to the talk the producers pointed out that you won't see Solomon because of his danger. You will note throughout his talk, which ends in Part 4, he is in the dark and even in the short moment when he descends the podium, the film is edited to hide his face.

He is over that hurdle now and he appears on film without editing, lighting tricks, or disguises. I'll have some links for you on this below.

I also have read Dune, your comment about the Dune universe is interesting, clearly the Fremen are fictionalised arab muslims - the empire of Muad'dib an islamicised horror universe. 'Spice' = oil ?

Right on Jan! Exactly so. The parallels are even closer than the Spice = oil although that equation is enough. Both spice and oil represent an overall imperative in both worlds. Without it the world falls apart and travel itself is not possible in practical terms. Both are 'addictive' and loss of the substance is a mortal threat. Control of the spice is really in the hands of the Fremen who from time to time perform raids on commercial enterprises on Dune (i.e. Caravan raiding.)

Now for some interesting things about the story; Paul Atriedes is the prophesied one in the story. He is given the name Muad'dib as you point out which means among other things the name of one of the moons of Arakis. Just as the moon is a symbol for Islam it is the symbol for Maud'dib'.

Further, do you see anything familiar with Maud'dib? If you sound it out and drop the 'b' you get the sound Muadi a variant of Mahdi, the honorific applied to Shia Islam's coming redeemer. It is no small coincidence that in Dune the highest legal authority is the "Padishah Emerperor." Padishah is an Iranian (i.e. Persian) designation roughly meaning high(est) king. Iran, of course is the centre for Shia Islam.

Paul "mahdi" is the prophesied one who will take down tyranny and bring 'truth' and justice etc. etc. through jihad using his Fremen followers. In the sequel, to Dune, the title of the book says everything: "Dune Messiah". Paul has taken over as ruler of the universe and his Fremen are off on their jihad which has taken about 50 billion lives or so at the beginning of the book. Islamic history is repeating itself in the far distant future.

So, Herbert definitely had Islam in mind when he wrote Dune and Dune Messiah. Even the Bene Gesserit honorific for the coming messiah, Kwisatz Hiderach, comes from the Kabbalic term "Kefitzat Haderech". For more on this term see the following Wikipedia entry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kefitzat_Haderech

So, yup, Herbert intended Dune to be about 'modern day Arabs' moved into a future 9,000 to 10,000 years from now.

Getting back to Sam Solomon, the following links might be useful to you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebfCaCinSgo


The following is a great eight part interview with Mr. Solomon.

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQJfRq45-KQ&feature=related
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfMd413MQfo&feature=relmfu
Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8FI-nrE4jA&feature=relmfu
Part 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVAD8L9zk_4&feature=relmfu
Part 5: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_OdaxCsM5M&feature=relmfu
Part 6: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCx6df9KChU&feature=relmfu
Part 7: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RPFZzwCwqw&feature=relmfu
Part 8: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMkyK3A9fus

As I mentioned above, Solomon no longer hides his face in public. Below is an example of Solomon putting on his true face to the public:

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IAdrzBZD64&feature=related
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EcKpCM8k9g&feature=relmfu


Hopefully, you will find the above useful to you Jan. Nice talking to you. Take care. I'm sure we will talk again.

PS: The same offer I made to DDA about sending a copy of the entire Michael Coren Bat Ye'or/Sam Solomon interview applies. Just let me know if you ever want it.

Peter

continuing the rather OT social chat.

Since you've mention B5 and Tolkien.

I have seen the *whole* of the Babylon 5 series. Flawed in places, but at bottom JMS is profoundly true to his Jewish roots; he spends a good deal of time reflecting in various ways on the figure of the Servant King. And he also makes it clear to his viewers that pure pacifism in the face of certain kinds of evil is not possible...nor moral.

I would have to say that my favourite portion of the series is probably the set of episodes that runs from the one in which Sheridan beards a bunch of Shadows in their den on Z'hadum (and pulls the roof down on their heads. magnificently), through to the episode called 'Into the Fire'. To understand why, read David Bentley Hart, 'The Beauty of the Infinite', the sections entitled 'The City and the Wastes', 'The Will to Power' and 'The Covenant of Light'. Hart is very clear in his insistence that the Biblical vision of god, world and man cannot be classified under *either* Apollo *or* Dionysius; it cannot be understood in those terms. It stands entirely outside of that closed circle or those contending polarities. It is possible to choose neither Apollo nor Dionysius, neither Vorlons nor Shadows, but *something else*. A different way.

Incidentally, the B5 episode entitled 'Infection' always comes to my mind whenever we see examples of the fact that within Islam it is simply impossible for anyone to be Islamic *enough* to avoid getting killed for being 'insufficiently Islamic'.

Re Tolkien. I had read 'The Silmarillion' by the time I was 15. LTR too. And The Hobbit. And his other, briefer writings, such as 'Leaf by Niggle'. Not really interested in the films; my offspring enjoy them, but I found Peter Jackson's version of 'Fellowship of the Ring' only just bearable and his versions of Two Towers and Return of the King unendurable altogether, because of the violence wreaked upon the characters and the plot.

It wasn't till I started reading here, and found out about the epic cavalry ride of Jan Sobieski and his Winged Hussars to the rescue of Muslim-besieged Vienna in 1683, that I realized where that devout Catholic and history-conscious author Tolkien must have got some of the inspiration for his Siege of Gondor and the Ride of the Rohirrim. I don't think he's writing allegory; more like analogy; holding up a mythic mirror. His series is not 'about' Christendom's - or more generally, humanity's - 1400 year struggle of self-defence against the Jihad; rather, it shows us something 'like' it.

I don't think our poets have entirely failed to realize that 'we are at war'. But because of the silencing that has been imposed, the *real* and the *best* 'war movies' that have been created, so far, in connection with the Third Jihad, have used 'indirection', resorting to myth or fantasy so as to say what the subconscious *knows* but which the conscious minds do not know at all, or are not yet brave enough to come right out and say. And so we have had B5, and the Harry Potter books and films, and Jackson deciding to film Lord of the Rings. The plots of all three, one must note, take as their premise a world in which a very great evil force, that was thought to have been soundly defeated or that has been 'lying low' for a long time (such that most ordinary people have only a suppressed awareness of it) is resurgent.

Great Post DDA. Thanx. Thanx especially for bringing up D.B. Hart of whom I was unaware until now.

I just finished finding out about him on the Net (thanx for that too) and he sounds to be right up my alley. So I do intend to read the three books you suggested but I think I will put them on hold for a bit so I can read Atheist Delusions. This book sounds fascinating. I think you even recommended it to me once upon a time. If that is not a false memory, my belated apologies for ignoring your suggestion.

But because of the silencing that has been imposed, the *real* and the *best* 'war movies' that have been created, so far, in connection with the Third Jihad, have used 'indirection', resorting to myth or fantasy so as to say what the subconscious *knows* but which the conscious minds do not know at all, or are not yet brave enough to come right out and say.

Two comments on this:

First, I think the use of indirection would be warranted in any case. Doing this makes the story eternal and universal. Its truth is valid for all time and in all places whereas dealing with the Third Jihad per se, anchors the truth unto the Third Jihad (or so, those in the future might argue.)

I think that is why Jesus taught in parables. He wanted the truth behind the parables to be universal and eternal. Even when he wasn't explaining morals and ethics through parables he used indirection. The best example is: "Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's." Replying in this fashion to a question that was intended to anchor his response in time (and get Jesus in trouble to boot) he created a truth that is universal and timeless. I'm sure that this saying will still be applicable when mankind eventually goes to the stars.

Second, you are 100% correct on the great silencing in our society. There may be a heavy toll we all have to pay for this treason by the left but we better be willing to pay it.

There is a really good video series running at PJTV.com. It is called Poliwood and it deals with the left's control of Hollywood especially as to how it affects what movie scripts may be produced and who is allowed to participate in the making of these movies. This is silencing at its worst.

The show is hosted by Lionel Chetwnd (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lionel_Chetwynd ) and Roger L. Simon ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_L._Simon )

Several times on Poliwood, Chetwynd has pointed out that anyone of a conservative bent can not work in Hollywood because the left will step in to prevent it. Apparently, it has got so bad that Hollywood boasts about it rather than denies it. Chetwynd has also pointed out that those leftists within Hollywood who show some moral fibre and speak out are permanently ostracized by that community.

These two facts are important to know for several reasons, one of which is understanding Tommy Trudeau in his 3 episode appearance on the Glazov Gang regarding the proposed Egyptian necrophilia law. You may recall his emotional response to Glazov for bringing up something that he had confided to Jaimie off camera. He had confided that his work in Hollywood would end and that his community would drop him like a ton of brick's if he didn't tow the party line. In other words, his life might be destroyed. Trudeau was being quite truthful in explaining the danger he now was under because of Glazov's indiscretion. Glazov of course knew all this before he got Trudeau to confide in him. He betrayed that confidence to 'score a point' in the debate, not a very nice thing to do. I have known Jaimie Glazov for several years and I never thought he would do anything like that.


Getting back to how the left controls Hollywood, the following Poliwood clip illustrates that quite succinctly: It involves an interview with Ben Shapiro, author of Primetime Propaganda: The True Hollywood Story of How the Left Took Over Your TV

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PxG0vmd-zs&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PL673C05E2BE23CF33


Here is a link to an interview of Ben Shapiro by Glenn Beck This gives a pretty good idea of how the censorship of the right and proselytizing by the left takes place:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkUvYxhjz9w


The following link is to the preface of Mr. Shapiro's book. It's quite long but if you ever have a free moment, it is worth a read (and worth the scare).

http://www.cbn.com/CBNNews_Files/images11/pdfs/Primetime_Propaganda_Excerpt.pdf

The following link is to another Poliwood episode that builds upon the one above:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBsGxhsmX8c


This is the tip of the iceberg DDA and that is why I feel that the left is a far greater risk to the West than Islam. Eventually, we can and we will handle Islam because it is an easily identifiable enemy that can be confronted directly. It will probably turn out to be an extremely costly confrontation but we will prevail.

Dealing with the left is another matter. It's like dealing with a social disease. Once you are infected you never get rid of it.

I have a feeling that any attempt to unseat the left from their strongholds (Government, Universities, Media, Entertainment, Teaching, etc.) will be an almost impossible challenge to North America and Europe. The only attempt that would have a chance of working would involve extreme violations of fundamental rights and freedoms, a route Democratic societies should never contemplate. Once that precedent is set, freedom and liberty become just words. So, someone has to come up with a legal and effective way of dislodging these pernicious ideologues from the real world equivalents of Angband, Thangorodrim, and Barad-dur. Good luck to that person who takes on that task. He faces a much greater challenge than Frodo ever did.

Anyway, thanx for the thoughts DDA. Hopefully there was something in the soap boxing above that had some value. Talk to ya soon.

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