Robert Spencer and Pamela Geller on Stakelbeck on Terror: Islamization in America and Did Muhammad Exist?

"Did Muhammad exist?
Of course he did, it's in the Quran!"
That would be the Koran that Mohammad gave to his followers?
Someone needs to explain to Choudary & Co what a circular argument is.

Hello Gerard,

It looks like Robert certainly has put the cat amongst the pigeons, pulling out the the coup de gras, found the "source of Nile" so to speak;

Did Muhammad exist? That fundamental tightrope who nobody would dare to tread, by golly, by golly the world is so happy now.

Well he already has a lot of you convinced already; and good luck with that, but it is not you he needs to convince, it is people like me, my family, friends and the other 1.2B muslims across the world.

In truth Robert has every right to ask these questions, and since many of you already know the answer, it's case closed, you don't need to worry about it anymore, tell everyone and Islam will now melt and disappear as it was all a sham. Why not freely distribute this book in Saudi, and Pakistan along with a flyer;

"You have been saved, L-O-O-K, Muhammed did not exist, the Koran is therefore false, you can no longer be fined for blasphemy, by saying this; Robert Spencer has done the research, here is the proof (hand over the book at that point) it is your new savior, be happy, you are free; free free.

Now doesn't that sound nice!

Rezali

I don't know whether Mohammad existed or not.
My view of Islam is not significantly altered by this lastest of Robert's books.
So "free,free"? My freedom does not depend on this or any other book.
"Now doesn't that sound nice!"
Gerard.

I hope you get the book Rezali. Robert Spencer makes his case quite convincingly. The book documents the research of a group of scientists who believe that the Arabs of the 7th century belonged to a unitary christian sect. They prove this using contemporary inscriptions and coins minted by the Arabs of the 7th century.

You wrote: '... but it is not you he needs to convince, it is people like me, my family, friends and the other 1.2B muslims across the world.'

Wrong! He doesn't need to convince you or 1.2 billion Muslims at all. Why not?

There are people who still believe the Earth is flat. All the evidence proves them wrong, but they still believe such nonsense. However, the rest of the world carries on without the 'flat earthers'. They are disregarded as strange people who have no real connection with reality.

The same will happen with Islam.

Islam is the 'religious' version of believing the Earth to be flat. (In fact, your Qur'an says the Earth is flat! "And the earth how it is spread out?" Wa ilal'ardi kayfa sutihat.
Sura 88:17-20 The word 'sutihat' is derived from the Arabic root 'sataha', meaning 'stretched')

So, Rezali, continue with your quaint 7th century beliefs, but don't be surprised when the rest of the world rejects them for the nonsense they are.

The MSM and 'liberal' left apologists for Islam would have a hard time justifying their support for a flat Earth society, and one day soon they will have the same impossible job justifying Islam.

You're outta date, irrelevant!

Granted you are already free: However, the real relevance and what's revolutionary about Robert's book is what it can do to liberate millions of Muslims.

Scary because many of the hardcore Islamists will turn more lethal in their final battle, but possibilities are endless.

Rezal

Why don't you go back to your little rug and stick your forehead in it and stick your rear end in the air and babble and repeat your sadistic words …. make sure to face the place [ Kaba] Where people wore raped,beheaded and thieved from, by your fake prophet Mohammad .

And after that please, go back to sleep until the next time you have to pray … mean awhile the world is as usual going ahead with advancing and inventing and making better lives for its people …

You Muslims [ I know I was one of you ] are only good for praying to non exciting Allah and waisting everything and anything including the lives of your own people .

Allaw me to ask … please ….Do you wash for Sallat or do you just Tatyamem like some Muslims I know ? … they are so lazy they do not want to wash even …

Or …. they, do the wodo without cleaning under arms … Because it is NOT included in the ritual of wodo … the Muslims end up with a clean face and feet … but THE STINK UNDER ARM EVER …

At the beginning of the airy-fairy nonsense you wrote, you said: 'We are discussing Muhammed PBUH, and not flat/stretched earth .....'

*Your* so-called prophet was the one who said that Allah told him through an angel that the Earth is flat. So, how could the creator of the Universe get a description of His own creation so spectacularly wrong?
Answer: Because it was Mo who was making up the whole thing when presenting a commonly held 7th Century concept of the world that was just flat, wrong! (If he existed, of course)
Maybe it was the committee of Qur'an compilers who put that 'flat Earth' stuff in Al Qur'an.

The rest of your post is waffle that doesn't amount to a hill of beans. Oh, by the way, if your salt and pepper analogy is applicable for our green and sceptered isle, why isn't also applicable for Saudi Arabia? No Churches there. Not to mention the Christian churches being torn down in other Muslim countries.

You're a clown!

"Rezali Mehil" wrote:

"Look, it's like this, God created salt and he created pepper, and a good meal is enhanced by the use of both. It is like this for us too, a good community is one where there is a liberal sprinkling of Christians and Muslims who live together in a community. A few houses are muslim, a few are christian - like salt and pepper to get that distinct stamp of Britishness."

While this personal sentiment seems laudable, it is wholly inconsistent all through the countries where Muslim populations currently dominate the demographic landscape.

I guess we could choose to ignore headline after headline about the plight of Christians in the Middle East that is presented here, and instead arrive at a perception based solely on your seemingly altruistic statement, even in spite of the fact that it is echoed by a de-minimus number of your co-religionists in your respective communities.

I did notice in your "Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood" painting of a perfect community that the mention of Jews as representative was nowhere to be found. Now that is perfectly understandable because the Jew-hatred inherent in your "divine" Koran is nigh impossible to overlook or to conceal. It's a bit easier with Christians, but then again, if it were true at all, then we seem to have a staggering number of "pseudo-Muslims" in Muslim majority countries who continue to musunderstand the Koran, and with frightening consistency.

Again, all this can be explained away if we simply abandon and ignore our lying eyes and ears, and quite simply take your word for it.

As far as Spencer, through his diligence, actually assisting in weeding out the "in-authentic" Hadiths, again I love Muslim double-speak about inauthenticity, yet still existing and accepted by a majority of adherents. I am quite sure you can point to a source that you use which also shares that sentiment, since it appears to be of great value to you. I am also sure that you are an active participant in forums dedicated to weeding out false Islam, in order to enlighten your brethren to exactly where they continue to go astray, right?

I note that the vile, supremacist rezali, doesn't dare to reply to *your* post, fineliving !

She hasn't got the guts to engage with someone who actually *knows* the foul cult from the inside. I hope all is well with you and your family.

"You have to remember Jan that less that a 10th of the hadith (over 40,000) are considered authentic."

Riiiight. That's why they're still included in all the hadith collections.

If they were entirely manufactured, as you claim why not just throw them out?

Oh, wait. The Turkish government tried that. The result: screeching shrews like you and your bearded masters threatened a typical musloid orgy of violence if they did.

You must have the most ginormous conk judging by the number of obfuscations you bandy about, supremacist shrew.

I will engage with anyone who talks in a civil manner, I have nothing to hide, certainly don't have all the answers but when someone is just downright condenscending - it won't be a fruitful exchange, ....so what's the point?

"As for prophesy, I don't worry about that, I just love the poetry and recital of the Koran, - remember in over 1400 years nobody has been able to write even one surah (the smallest in only 3 verses) to match one in the Koran - THAT is the miracle of Islam."

No, that does not show the "miracle of islam." It shows how the contestants are the judges of a fixed contest.

You think of yourself as witty and intelligent when you show clearly you are a silly shrew who believes in bronze age supremacist fairy tales who engages in circular "logic" as "proof" of her own "superior" belief in said fairy tales.

Your "logic" and "proof" are less honest and factual than the logic and proof my five year old nephew uses to prove Santa Claus is real.

In other words: He's got a more valid case than you do, supremacist shrew.

"...but when someone is just downright condenscending..."

Oh you nasty little shrew. You are typically mohammadan. You can dish it out but your hypersensitive islamic self can't take it!

You're fun! We cannot make this stuff up. You islamic supremacists do the work for us!

Hi Buraq. You said "There are people who still believe the Earth is flat. All the evidence proves them wrong, but they still believe such nonsense. However, the rest of the world carries on without the 'flat earthers'. They are disregarded as strange people who have no real connection with reality."

But the earth IS flat. That was proved a few years back by an eminent Qur'anic Scientist. He proved that the scientific method of inquiry is flawed because it's based on facts and investigation to find truth and reproducible experiments and observation. Go figure! How could anything the worked along these lines ever work? It has to be bid'ha.

The Qur'anic scientist showed that all of our scientific curiosity can be satisfied by referring to Islam's greatest book. He made it clear that we don't need NASA to learn about the Solar system. He must be right. Isn't Obama shutting down the NASA space program? He must know that the Qur'an has better answers.

Have a look at the following and be amazed at the depth of scientific knowledge in the Qur'an. You will also be amazed at the quality of scholars the Qur'an can produce. We have nothing like them in the West. You too will come to realize that the world is flat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wppjYDj9JUc

"possibilities are endless. "
That was my thought too. The consequences could be anything, everything or nothing.
I suspect when Islam collapses it will be like the Berlin Wall. The people themselves will reject Islam.

"It happened 1400 years ago, both parties [Aisha and Muhammad] are dead, I don't understand why you won't drop the matter."

If only Muhammad were really dead, like some defunct ancient personage who only dwells in history text-books, that would be another matter.

The problem is that Muhammad continues to live, in the hearts and minds of over a billion Muhammadans spread out in a global diaspora in nearly every country on Earth, his Dos (Halal) and Don'ts (Haram) continuing, from beyond the grave, to animate and galvanize untold misery and mayhem wherever they live in large numbers.

"The problem is that Muhammad continues to live, in the hearts and minds of over a billion Muhammadans" ...

Exactly, LemonLime ...that is the bottom line. Challenging whether or not muhammad actually existed will have little to no impact on muslims on the whole; although this question does make for interesting debate, but that's about it.

Congratulation … CGW …

So the Muslim was doctor let go without the petition reaching 25000 names or did reach the the need it number … ?

that is wonderful …it must have been the pressure from all around ...

The innocent little Muslim girls are saved now who were going to be the next in line to have that done to them ….. the crime of FGM was going to effect them all there lives .

Thats shows working hard and doing something about things are right thing to do …and it does count …. and it does work …

Congratulations CGW, and all who participated in this effort!

CGW refers to a Muslim doctor, Hatem al-Haj (or alternately, typical of Arabic names and words mutating like eels under radiation, "El-Hagaly"), "PhD, MD".

The website "Translating Jihad" posted on April 27 a translation of a paper by the Association of Muslim Jurists of America (AMJA) -- [jeez, yet another Muslim acronym to add to the alphabet soup] senior committee member Dr. Hatem al-Haj, PhD, MD, in which he warned American Muslims against working in law enforcement in our 'infidel' nation...

More reently, they translated from Arabic another communique from the good doctor, in which he "explains why female circumcision [i.e., genital mutilation] is recommended and even 'an honor' for women..."

Jihad Watch had more on this here:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/05/leading-us-muslim-jurist-female-genital-mutilation-an-honor-in-islam.html

CGW helped push for a petition to have the good doctor fired from his position at Mayo. And it worked. One small step for Man, one giant leap for Kuffarkind...

Note: these were things Dr. Hatem (ya gotta hatem...) said and wrote in Arabic, apparently thinking they would be out of ear and eyeshot of Infidels.

Yes Champ, that is the ball on which to keep our eye fixed -- a ball too often, it seems, dropped, or bouncing on tangents off the furniture and walls and the edge of the coffee table on which lies a glossy New Yorker, a bowl of licorice candies, and Spencer's latest book, whose cover catches our eye before we hear glass break behind us as that dynamic rubber ball bounded out of the room before we knew it...

CGW, that is excellent news! You saw a problem in your neighborhood, you worked the solution, you made it happen. Congratulations!

Rezali (R)

"Jan asks "Whether the vile paedomohammed existed or not" . My ancestors do not consider Muhmammed PBUH a pedo as you put it. He did not prey on Aiesha, she was married to him through a union that is considered holy as it was ordained by Allah SWT. It happened 1400 years ago, both parties are dead, I don't understand why you won't drop the matter."

Do you agree with those hadiths that say Aisha was 6 (or 7) when middle-aged Muhammad married her, and that she was 9 when he "penetrated" her to consummate the marriage?

Do you agree with the Quran which implies that Muslim men can have sex with prepubescent brides (Q 65:4)?

Do you agree with the present-day practice of some Muslims, based on these policies, that adult Muslim men can have sex with child-brides?

R: "You have to remember Jan that less that a 10th of the hadith (over 40,000) are considered authentic. There have obviously been a lot of "players" out there who have tried to besmirch Muhammed's PBUH good name and our community has been suffering because of this."

Do Muslims who want to kill blasphemers, apostates, adulterers, and homosexuals "besmirch" Muhammad's name?

Do Muslims who kill British, American, and other allied forces personnel, "besmirch" Muhammad's name?

R: "[...] a good community is one where there is a liberal sprinkling of Christians and Muslims who live together in a community."

You have already suggested that Christians would have to comply with Islamic rule and law (i.e., as dhimmis) to live together in a community with Muslims. What about others, such as Jews, Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, Taoists, atheists, agnostics, deists, etc.?

R: "You have to remember Jan that less that a 10th of the hadith (over 40,000) are considered authentic. There have obviously been a lot of "players" out there who have tried to besmirch Muhammed's PBUH good name and our community has been suffering because of this."

This is practically irrelevant to non-Muslims, because Islamic jurists view the hadiths that support jihad and all the barbaric sharia punishments, taken together with the Quran, as valid enough by which to base Islamic law and policy.

Alternatively, let me ask you this: Do you reject the following policies in Islam, which are based on the Quran and Hadiths taken together:

-Death penalty or other harsh penalties for "insulting" Muhammad or disrespecting Islam (i.e., blasphemy).
-Death penalty for adult Muslim male apostates of sound mind; death or imprisonment for adult Muslim female apostates of sound mind.
-Death penalty for adultery
-100 lashes (Q 24:2), plus banishment or imprisonment, for fornication
-Death penalty for homosexual acts
-Death penalty for "witchcraft"/"sorcery"

-Waging military jihad against any people who refuse to accept Islam after the invitation has been given to them, or against any people who don't allow the Muslims in their midst to practice sharia.

-permission for adult male Muslims to have sex with their "right hand possession" non-Muslim female captives and slaves
-permission for adult Muslim males to have four wives simultaneously
-permission for adult Muslim males to have sex with prepubescent child brides

R: "As for prophesy, I don't worry about that, I just love the poetry and recital of the Koran, - remember in over 1400 years nobody has been able to write even one surah (the smallest in only 3 verses) to match one in the Koran - THAT is the miracle of Islam."

That claim is a non-sequitur.

You wrote: "Look, it's like this, God created salt and he created pepper, and a good meal is enhanced by the use of both. It is like this for us too, a good community is one where there is a liberal sprinkling of Christians and Muslims who live together in a community...."

God did not create garlic?

Thanks, fineliving56, and thanks for signing the petition. He was fired due to the outrage of almost 500 people.

The doctor now has his own petition, accusing us of “lying” and urging all to “rebuke the islamophobes”:

http://www.change.org/petitions/show-support-for-dr-hatem-elhagaly-al-haj-and-rebuke-islamophobic-attacks

Too late, he's fired. Note that religion was only referred to in the context of his own words/writing - we attacked the PRACTICE. He's the one who based the practice on his religion, not us!

Thanks, big guy!

LemonLime wrote:

"Yes Champ, that is the ball on which to keep our eye fixed -- a ball too often, it seems, dropped, or bouncing on tangents off the furniture and walls and the edge of the coffee table on which lies a glossy New Yorker, a bowl of licorice candies, and Spencer's latest book, whose cover catches our eye before we hear glass break behind us as that dynamic rubber ball bounded out of the room before we knew it..."

To put your comment in a sentient context, would require that you read the book, or at least pirate it, or even receive it as a gift, for you will most assuredly never purchase it.

That said, your comment to the Muslim troll was most excellent, and almost as good as mine. Regardless of whether Muhammad actually existed or not is essentially valueless, since "he" lives in the heart of most Muslims, especially adult Muslim males.

That's not to be construed that I or anyone else would demand a logical conclusion to demand the Xbox360 conclusion of the forced deportation of all Muslims from all western countries by idle words or even at the hand of a bayonette.

Spencer's argument, if you will, stands independently. It's not apologia and it's not a summary conclusion. Its clever, well-resourced and effective in the fact that it tugs the strings of the people Robert intended it to.

That is obvious to me and most everyone, except you and that other person, who thinks that a living detracting the site host is a good career move.

Just saying.

"effective in the fact that it tugs the strings of the people Robert intended it to."

If "the people" you're referring to are Muslims, what effects are we to expect from this string-tugging quality of the book? (If you weren't referring to Muslims, no need to answer the question.)

You fear truth. That you would attend this site and read and post shows how you are not quite sure of the things told you for so many years. Other Muslims share your horror that Islamic origins may be an illusion:

Sheikh Mohammed al-Nujaimi, a well-known Saudi cleric, declared, "They [pre-Islamic ruins] should be left in the ground. Any ruins belonging to non-Muslims should not be touched. Leave them in place, the way they have been for thousands of years." http://www.usnews.com/science/articles/2009/08/31/digging-up-the-saudi-past-some-would-rather-not.html

Congratulations, CGW!!!! ...you're an inspiration to us all!

Love ya, sweetheart!

Rezali Mehil,

When Muslims come here and argue a pro-Islam-position, they get a lot of, say, "contempt" here. They are heavily outnumbered and I noticed that they are almost always really get beaten in the argument, facing very strong factual and logical arguments against almost everything they present. Almost nothing they present goes unchallenged, whereas they themselves, perhaps out of necessity, leave the vast majority of counter-challenges about Islam unanswered. And only a very low percentage they will respond with conceding points to and congratulating opponents for points well made.

So why do any of them still post on this site? Well, for one thing, it is Muslim posters who invariably get very high response, attention, far more than the average Islamo-aware posters, is this then a motivation for Muslims to post here?

Another explanation I read on Faith Freedom International, from an apostate of Islam; it was that FFI, and Islam Watch and Jihad Watch are very popular among, say, doubting Muslims, many of them young, many of them female.

And so, this ex-Muslim reasoned that in a sense, the Muslim visitors on the Critical Islam Experts websites, really aim their comments on the doubting Muslim-visitors. And we do know that FFI, Islam Watch, Jihad Watch are very popular websites. And how many visitors are there who are Muslims living in Democratic Nations?

And if this is true, then the supporters of Critical Islam Experts do not only answer the Muslim-posters, the defenders of Islam, but really act as part of the prosecution of Islam. Whereas the doubting Muslims are the judges and the juries considering the evidence and logic of both sides.

Rezali, you did say that you were in part glad with the Research of Robert Spencer. And you were saying that only 10 % of the Hadiths were authentic, the rest fake. While Robert Spencer of course thinks of them even less, you and he have a considerable span of hadith-evaluation in agreement.

And we heard on the video Robert Spencer specifically say No to the question whether Muhammad existed or not. And he actually mentioned: "The pedophile Muhammad did not exist".

Is it perhaps gratifying for Muslims to get confirmation that the big taunt which haunts Muslims for at least a decade now, that their prophet was a pedofile, is now perhaps lifted? All the negative stories about Muhammad about which Ali Sina and Robert Spencer and many many others wrote, that they now can be considered mythical?

But now, Robert emphasizes that Islam was from the beginning more political than religious. And supremacist, clearly totalitarian political at that. And that is why so many Islamo-aware democratic citizens oppose Islam. And also precisely because Islam is so successful and powerful in numbers.

But does it now dawn on the Muslims that they are in big danger that their religion is going to be considered to be based on myths, a base not much better than a religion based on the "Lord of the Rings" would be?!

I mean; Muslims can't seriously argue that because for them a religion works, it is not important whether it is based on truth or falsehood or myths lacking all evidence?

Obviously I meant Muslims primarily, but Islam apologists and moral equivalency ditherers as well, although to a much lesser degree. A foundational element to have Islam potentially collapse on its own is the degradation of the myth of Muhammad as an exemplary character of behavior.

That has proven to be relatively effective angle to sway non-Muslims about Islam, but it has a reduced effect amongst the believers as far as my experience goes.

Now if Muhammad didn't exist, then the Qur'an cannot be divine, and therefore Islam in totality is a lie. Apostasy from Islam is the best outcome the non-Muslim commiunity can expect at this point.

The defense of the literal existence of Muhammad will compel Muslims to speak in much greter detail about Muhammad, likely more than they would care to and certainly more than they are currently accustomed to.

Hi CGW, I got my notification from Change.org yesterday. I think this story should be passed on to Pamela Geller. If you listen to the last minute or so of her talk with Stakelback she talks about ways of stopping Sharia and says (I'm paraphrasing):

". . . despite overwhelming support for it (Ground Zero mosque) by the elite, by the cultural elite, by the media elite, by the political elite . . . despite this overwhelming tsunami ... it was the people [who stopped it.]

I think Pamela Geller would like to know about this so the next time she does an interview and has to deal with how to fight sharia, she can add the story of this petition to her arsenal of examples.

By the way, I tried to thank and congratulate the initiator of the petition by going to Change.org. When I tried his/her link I couldn't send a comment to them. If you are able to comment to this person would you pass my congrats and thanx along and suggest they contact Pamela Geller about the victory.

One thing to point out, Dr. "Hate 'em Illegally" has now started up his own petition at Change.org. He has titled it "Show support for Dr. Hatem Elhagaly (Al-Haj) and rebuke islamophobic attacks."

Yesterday was an important day for me, I found out that I (and several hundred others) were officially dubbed Islamophobes compliments of Dr. Hate 'em. Cool! And my parents said I would never amount to anything.

All joking aside, the story with Dr. Illegally may not be over yet. I think Jihad Watchers should make ready for another petition depending on the outcome of this guy's shenanigans at Change.org

Thank you, dear CGW!! ...love U 2 :)

Thanks, Peter.

Pamela put up the article yesterday:

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2012/05/mayo-clinic-removes-dr-hatem-elhagaly-hatem-al-haj-clitorectomy-supporter-who-called-fgm-an-honor-fo.html

Hi CGW. This story just gets better and better. Thanx for the link. And thanx one more time for all that you have done in this matter. It is historic but sadly, far down the road what you did may be forgotten. Hopefully Ms. Geller will mention you in one of her future books. You certainly deserve a helluvah lot of credit. As I said elsewhere "You dah Man!"

Take care. I'm sure well get a chance to talk again.

Here's the latest:

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2012/05/texas-imam-main-al-qudah-issues-call-to-action-to-support-clitorectomies.html

All the best to you, Peter.

Were we talking about any other People on Earth and throughout history, I would consider your hypothesis about the effects of this book's thesis on their minds and culture more or less plausible. From everything we have come to know (or should have come to know, by now) about Muslims and their Mohammedan culture, they break the mold -- and thus it is useless or a distraction, at best, to think methods that work on others will work, in sufficient numbers, on them. And at worst, if pursued too concretely and institutionally (rather than as a nice thought experiment), may become a positive hindrance to our #1 priority: protecting our societies from their innumerable -- and, pace the Wellingtons of the world, indistinguishable -- mass-murderously fanatical maniacs.

As a monkey wrench tossed with agile aim into the mix, in tandem with our more grimly self-defensive measures we must learn to adopt, I welcome this book. But not if it's going to galvanize some Solution to the problem Muslims are causing us by "tugging" at Muslims to change.

LemonLime wrote:

"As a monkey wrench tossed with agile aim into the mix, in tandem with our more grimly self-defensive measures we must learn to adopt, I welcome this book. But not if it's going to galvanize some Solution to the problem Muslims are causing us by "tugging" at Muslims to change."

Fair enough and agreed to a point, but I was thinking more along the lines of the "change" of becoming ex-Muslims, not perceived innocuous Muslims. Islam surely will not chanqe, and I certainly do not subscribe to the "Hey, let's wait another 600 years 'till Islam comes around and reforms itself crowd."

Quite frankly, I don't see that solution becoming galvanized in any way.

The appalling Rezali Mehil wrote:

Did Muhammad exist? That fundamental tightrope who nobody would dare to tread, by golly, by golly the world is so happy now.

Well he already has a lot of you convinced already; and good luck with that, but it is not you he needs to convince, it is people like me, my family, friends and the other 1.2B muslims across the world.
....................................

Not really. I cannot speak for Robert Spencer, of course, but given the Islamic propensity for irrationality and quashing any criticism—or even questioning—of Islam, I very much doubt that he considered Muslims to be the primary audience for his work.

More:

In truth Robert has every right to ask these questions...
....................................

Glad to hear that you believe this. Certainly, few of your coreligionists do. They believe it approriate to subject such questioners to "Blasphemy" charges, imprisonment, and murder either judicial, or via mob violence.

Do you plan on taking your fellow Muslims to task on this issue?

More:

...and since many of you already know the answer, it's case closed, you don't need to worry about it anymore, tell everyone and Islam will now melt and disappear as it was all a sham. Why not freely distribute this book in Saudi, and Pakistan along with a flyer...
....................................

Despite your sarcasm, Robert Spencer has affirmed that a translation of "Did Muhammad Exist" into Arabic is in the works. I'm not sure about Urdu.

More:

"You have been saved, L-O-O-K, Muhammed did not exist, the Koran is therefore false, you can no longer be fined for blasphemy, by saying this; Robert Spencer has done the research, here is the proof (hand over the book at that point) it is your new savior, be happy, you are free; free free.

Now doesn't that sound nice!
....................................

I notice you are not bothering to make a rational case *for* the historic existence of the "Prophet" Muhammed. Not that this comes as any sort of surprise to me...

More, replying to Buraq:

We are discussing Muhammed PBUH, and not flat/stretched earth which by all accounts is just one of the anomolies that have been discussed over millenia, so I don't worry about it.
....................................

The point is that the existence of the "Prophet" may be one of those ignorant "anomolies", as well. Not surprised that you missed—or pretended to miss—Buraq's point here.

More:

" out of date, irrelevent these are your words not mine. What I see within my community is well educated people (including women)teachers, engineers, managers, school governors (as Jan knows), people who interact with you, your children, don't book meetings on Friday between 11am and 2pm because they want to attend Mosque. Indeed I think there is an element of envy or jealousy by people like Jan who don't see that element of faith/discipline in their own community and don't want to see it in anybody else's either.
....................................

"Discipline"? I can think of few words *less* apt to describe Muslim behavior overall. They might hew to their rituals out of fanaticism, fear, or simple habit, but in all the areas where true discipline is called for, far too many are entirely deficient.

The well-known Muhammedan propensity for inchoate rage resulting in "Honor Killings" and mob violence is hardly very "disciplined"—except where it is a deliberate tactic, of course. The same is true of the general propensity of Muslim for violent crime, especially robbery and rape.

More:

Instead we see increasingly that residents are turning to courts to get us to restrict the building of mosques despite meeting all the planning guidelines.

This blockage really affects the ordinary Muslim, whilst wetting (sic) the appetite of the more fervent amongst us; which is a shame as it gets you going.
....................................

The usual claim—that all Jihad violence is actually due to "Islamophobia". The truth is that few Westerners would care about Mosques at all—no more than they care about Buddhist Monasteries, Hindu Temples, or Synagogues—save for the fact that they are so often used as bases for the plotting of Jihad terror.

More:

Look, it's like this, God created salt and he created pepper, and a good meal is enhanced by the use of both. It is like this for us too, a good community is one where there is a liberal sprinkling of Christians and Muslims who live together in a community. A few houses are muslim, a few are christian - like salt and pepper to get that distinct stamp of Britishness.
....................................

I believe the metaphor you were looking is not "salt" and "pepper", but "salt" and *"strychnine"*. Islam brings *nothing* to Britain save threats of Jihad terror and brutal Shari'ah law.

The attempt to reframe Islam as 'typically British' is just grimly laughable. Islam stands against *everything* that makes civilized Albion truly British—individual rights, moral decency, and the rule of law.

More:

Gerard says "My freedom does not depend on this or any other book". That is very telling remark and for me outlines the distinct difference between you and us. In my ancestor's country The Holy Koran outlines the freedom decorums extended to a man, his wife(s), children, extended family, street, town, city, country. It is a beautiful thing when a country is integrated and united in this manner, this is why you should allow mosques to be build where required.
....................................

The very fact that you posit "wife(s)" indicates how grotesque your view of "freedom" is. Islam's view of "freedom' is for a man to be allowed to "enjoy" polygamy, forced marriages, "marriage" to pre-pubescent children; for a man to a able to force his own daughters into child marriage; for him to beat and "Honor Kill" his wife(s) and children; for him to oppress and murder Infidels and the "insufficiently Islamic".

Your terming a country being "integrated and united in this manner" is a clear reference to the imposition of brutal Shair'ah law—and a clear admission that Mosques are regarded as outposts of this imposition.

And you would submit the civilized West to this barbarism, as well—until England was no better than Pakistan or Somalia or Taliban-era Afghanistan—savage, chaotic hellholes. Because *this* is what full imposition of Shari'ah and "Muslim values" leads to.

More:

Jan asks "Whether the vile paedomohammed existed or not" . My ancestors do not consider Muhmammed PBUH a pedo as you put it. He did not prey on Aiesha, she was married to him through a union that is considered holy as it was ordained by Allah SWT.
....................................

So—because the rape of a little 9-year-old girl by a man in his fifties was, as you see it, sanctioned by the vile deity "Allah", it is not only perfectly all right, but to be considered "holy"? Ugh.

More:

It happened 1400 years ago, both parties are dead, I don't understand why you won't drop the matter.
....................................

If Muhammed were regarded as just another dark-ages war lord like Attila the Hun or Genghis Khan, there would be no issue. Both of these figures are considered barbaric, and *no one* today is emulating their actions.

Would that it were so with the equally barbaric "Prophet" Muhammed. Little girls are suffering all over the Muslim world *today* because Muhammed is considered the "model for all mankind", the perfect man, worthy of emulation *for all time*.

One of the first things the appalling Ayatollah Khomeini did upon seizing power in Iran was to lower the age of marriage for girls to nine in emulation of what the "Prophet" did to little Aisha. He himself "married" a 10-year-old girl. And it is not just the Shi'ites—there is child marriage in Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Somalia, Afghanistan, Indonesia, Nigeria—really, all over the Muslim world. Post-"Arab Spring" Egypt is considering lowering the marriage age as well, for just this reason.

And this happens in the West, as well—wherever Muslims believe they can get away with it by palming off an under-aged "wife" as a niece or younger sister. It happened recently in the case of an "Honor Killing" victim in the United States who had given birth at 14—so had obviously been impregnated at 13. She might have been "married" even younger-since it is rare for a child much younger than this to be able to become pregnant and bring a child to term.

And this vile phenomenon has certainly become rife in Britain, thanks to your ugly coreligionists.

When you stop subjecting girls to such "holy" pedophilia, I think you will find that civilized Westerners will soon lose interest in the doings of some caravan-raider who troubled the world 1400 years ago.

More:

Jan further asks what sort of people would *make up* such a psychopath as a *prophet* ?

You have to remember Jan that less that a 10th of the hadith (over 40,000) are considered authentic. There have obviously been a lot of "players" out there who have tried to besmirch Muhammed's PBUH good name and our community has been suffering because of this.
....................................

Very few Hadith—deemed "Sahih" or not—were written to "besmirch" Muhammed. it's not as though they were written by "Islamophobic" Infidels, after all. But between the Qur'an and the "reliable" Hadiths of Bukhari and Muslim, a pretty nasty—and quite consistent—picture of the "Prophet's" character emerges.

Whether Muhammed is ultimately a historical or a mythological character—or some blend of the two—there can be no doubt that he is a profoundly repulsive figure. Well, there can be no doubt among those not brought up to believe that whatever ugly actions he ever took *have to* be regarded as ideal—no matter how vile they may have been.

More:

I therefore welcome Robert's research as he too will sift out some of those unreliable hadith in his work, and better for everybody.
....................................

What idiocy. This was done years ago by such compilers of Hadith and tracers of Isnad chains as Bukhari and Muslim. What Muslim would listen to an Infidel like Robert Spencer on doctrinal matters, anyway? Besides, if you are trying to imply that Spencer's purpose is *whitewashing* the appalling Muhammed or the savagery of Islam, you obviously are not well acquainted with his work. More likely, of course, you are just applying more of that "sparkling" sarcasm...

More:

As for prophesy, I don't worry about that, I just love the poetry and recital of the Koran, - remember in over 1400 years nobody has been able to write even one surah (the smallest in only 3 verses) to match one in the Koran - THAT is the miracle of Islam.
....................................

The usual claim. Actually, any number of texts far outstrip the "poetry" of the ugly Qur'an—including the Bible, the works of Shakespeare, and such poets as Yeats and Whitman.

But it's true—if you delight in recitations of brutality against Infidels, you simply can't beat the "Holy" Qur'an...

I'm coming in late to this thread, having been mostly away from jihadwatch and doing other stuff for a couple of days.

But I just have to say: well said, 'fineliving'.

I love you, dear lady. I look out for your postings, especially when we have to do with the Slaves of Allah spewing lies and nonsense. I am so glad that you are here to sock it to the likes of 'Rezali'. Because **you know**.

Keep on keeping on.

Your postings matter a LOT. Not only for the non-Muslims who don't yet know very much about Islam and come in here for the first time and hear you telling the truth (think of people who didn't know about communism, or had been told lies about it, during the 1920s-1970s, hearing the testimony of ex-communist defectors from Soviet Russia who were bearing witness to what was *really* happening there and how evil communism was), but also for the sake of those others who might be reading. Not the convinced Muslim da'wa artists like Rezali, but the 'doubting Muslims' Demsci mentioned above...the people (perhaps especially young women living within the West) who are like you were when you were just beginning to break the mental chains of Islam.

What about onions, tomates and chilli peppers?

What about onions, tomatoes and chilli pepers?