"From now on, they either follow the right religion or there will be no peace for them": Muslim group claims responsibility for Nigeria church bombings that killed 50

As Muhammad said, "I have been commanded to fight against people so long as they do not declare that there is no god but Allah, and he who professed it was guaranteed the protection of his property and life on my behalf except for the right affairs rest with Allah." -- Sahih Muslim 30

"Boko Haram claims responsibility for Nigeria church bombings," from CNN, June 18 (thanks to Wimpy):

Abuja, Nigeria (CNN) -- A militant Islamist group claimed responsibility Monday for bombings the day before that the Nigerian Red Cross said left 50 people dead at three Christian churches in Nigeria.

Boko Haram said the attacks Sunday in the Nigerian cities of Zaria and Kaduna were retaliation on Christians for destroying mosques and, according to the group, turning others into "beer parlour and prostitution joints."

"Let them know that now it's the time for revenge God willing," the group said in a statement. "From now on, they either follow the right religion or there will be no peace for them."

Government and Red Cross figures on the death toll in Sunday's attacks differed. However, the bombings at two churches and a third in Kaduna left at least 50 people dead and 131 wounded according to the Red Cross.

Kaduna state officials loosened a 24-hour curfew imposed after the attacks, saying people could be on the streets from 2 to 6 p.m. However, resident Anthony Majindadi said most people were staying indoors and his area still looked like a ghost town.

The series of attacks began when a suicide bomber drove at high speed through a barricade at the EWCA Goodnews Wusasa Zaria church around 9 a.m., congregation member Lucy Bello said.

A Kaduna state official, who asked to remain anonymous because he was not authorized to speak to the media, said that blast killed at least 24 people and injured 125.

The Nigerian Red Cross Society, however, reported that two people died and 22 were injured in the attack.

Within minutes, another explosion occurred at the Christ the King Catholic Church in Zaria, according to Nigeria's National Emergency Management Agency.

At least 10 people died and more than 50 were injured in that attack, the state government official said....

The bombings are the latest in a string of violence directed at Nigerian churches. A week ago, a car bomb killed five people during services at a church in Jos, also in northern Nigeria. Angry crowds wielding makeshift clubs fought with police after chasing security forces away from the destroyed church. Three more people died in the clashes.

And two weeks ago, two church bombings in the region killed at least 15 people....

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Even when they tell us the cause is their religion we civilised Westerners refuse to believe. We know better. Our epitaph will read, "We Knew Better."

We well deserve whatever happens to our freedoms and values that millions have died to preserve.

With the death toll in Nigeria approaching the level of Libya and Syria, I'm sure that the leftist pundits will be calling for American intervention, including air strikes. Oh, wait, you mean it's Christians being killed in Nigeria, not Moslems? Well, then, forget about it! It's not our business!

You're right, Barack Hussain Obama, will not harm his Muslims brothers! No, no, no ... Only Christian's and other inferior religious people are mowed down by Obama.

We need to Impeach Barack Hussain Obama now! This dog-poop that I will not vote for Obama in November is just that, dog-poop. Anyone who thinks that waiting to vote Obama out of office is just spinning their wheels. The "fix" is in people and Obama will find a way to not be voted out of office. We the People need to take responsibility and impeach Obama, because he has committed numerous impeachable offenses and because he is corrupt.

Oh, and anyone who thinks Impeaching Obama is not achivable ... well then why are you waiting for November to vote him out? ...

You can always count on the Pam Gellers and the Robert Spencers of the world to pull some out of context obscure quote from another religion they scarcely undrestand yet hate...and get it so wrong...that they appear like ignorant savages painting themselves with fecal medium to ward off the evil spirits.

He's so wrong it is sad...pathetic really...that the people who are misfortunate enough to give this charlatan attenton and, God forbid, even money for his drivel, believe what he alludes to as "factual"

It should not take this loser long to block any true voice of opposition.

As much as he lauds free speach, he can't handle the cold hard truth.

AGREED. How many times do they have to tell us that they want to kill us as their prophet dictated? WE ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR OUR PROTECTION.

What is wrong with you and what are you talking about?

Mensch Kelmelon:

The byline of the posting is from CNN and is posted here for information's sake. If you have issues with the factual content of the material, it might be best if you included CNN in your rant, again, for information's sake.


To put this in perspective....

In Montgomery, Alabama, the Civil Rights Memorial has 40 names on it, which are virtually all those who died either fighting against racism during the civil rights years of 1954-1968, or who were murdered by white racists. Some deaths are not even conclusive. Others, like Emmett Till, may have more to do with defending a wife's "honor" than racism. 40 deaths in 14 years, during the "violent years" of civil rights.

And here today in Nigeria, 50 African Christians were murdered in one act which will soon be forgotten. Just a run-of-the-mill massacre, like so many others done in the name of ALLAH and MOHAMMAD. Another slaughter by the so-called Boko Harum, aka JIHADISTS, quoting the KORAN, as dedicated MUSLIMS. And the OBAMA-CLINTON-BUSH-bots say "Keep moving, nothing to see here..."

Situations such as this led to the development of the military orders, the Knights Hospitallers and Templars.

The title is:
"From now on, they either follow the right religion or there will be no peace for them"

True words, but unfortunately the right religion is NOT Islam!

It's a crying shame that over one billion of the World's population are traveling on the long road to Hell. Who, if any of them, will get off this road before it is too late?

"You can always count on the Pam Gellers and the Robert Spencers of the world to pull some out of context obscure quote from another religion they scarcely undrestand yet hate...and get it so wrong..."


What quotes are you referring to and just how have they taken them out of context?

All notice how Keymelon never even tries to argue for his views or offer evidence. He is all posturing, because he has nothing else and the evidence is all against him.

I think the following hadith, while very similar to the one Robert cited, makes clearer Muhammad's meaning.

In core Islamic texts, Muhammad says your "lives and property" are not safe from him unless you become a Muslim

In Sahih al-Bukhari and Sahih Muslim, the two most canonical hadith collections:

Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 2, Number 25:

Narrated Ibn 'Umar:
Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform all that, then they save their lives and property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."

-- QuotingIslam.blogspot.com

You can always count on the Keymelons of this world to divert attention away from the Medina Mafia's violent ideology of Jihad. C'mon, special K, if the verse quoted from Sahih Muslim 30 does not mean, 'Look, either become a Muslim or I'm comin' to get ya,' then what does it mean?

And remember that the word Sahih means its a reliable text, not an obscure text out of nowhere. It's central to Islam's world-conquering agenda.

Clown!

Sorry, did not read all the other posts. My first reaction to Mensch was 'What!!!'

Right now, probably the most practical thing we can do for our oppressed fellow kuffar in Nigeria is to join the Barnabas Fund's Proclaim Freedom campaign.

http://www.barnabasfund.org/Act/Campaign/Proclaim-Freedom/What-is-Proclaim-Freedom/

When you write your letter to your elected representative, be sure to point out that it isn't just Christians being harassed and persecuted in Muslim countries or in Muslim-dominated areas of non-Muslim countries (though in absolute numbers the Christians are the main sufferers, worldwide); it is also, depending on where you are, Hindus and Buddhists and Sikhs and Zoroastrians and Jews and animists...and apostates from Islam, whether they choose to join a non-Muslim faith or whether they decide to be atheists, like Taslima Nasreen.

Mohammedans are equal-opportunity persecutors.

This 'Proclaim Freedom' campaign may prod some of our governments and politicians into putting real pressure and imposing Consequences on Mohammedan violators of the religious freedom and human rights of non-Muslim minority groups (whether Christian or other); it does also challenge non-Muslim states that persecute Christians qua Christians, though there are a lot fewer of those and mostly - except for North Korea, which is in a class of its own - they are not anywhere near as bad as the Muslim persecutors.

Even if it doesn't, it may open a few eyes.

Download - or ring up and get through the post - copies of the petition, and when you take it round your church, or your social group or workplace or family, asking people to sign it in defence of the right to life and the right to freedom of conscience, use it as an opportunity to educate, educate, educate.

For those new to this site and this subject:

Remember Biafra!!

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2005/12/fitzgerald-remember-biafra.html

and this:


http://www.newenglishreview.org/blog_direct_link.cfm/blog_id/37750

Friday, 9 September 2011
Islam In Africa (Two Articles)


And to my brothers and sisters in Nigeria, some of whom thanks to this marvellous thing called the internet may be eavesdropping on this discussion, I say: St Augustine did say that there was such a thing as a Just War. And other great Christian thinkers thought likewise.

I encourage you to look up a man called Orde Wingate, and how he helped train the Haganah, before the resurrection of the Jewish state of Israel; how he taught them to defend themselves against...**Muslims**.

You may also like to find out about Wingate's 'Gideon Force', in Ethiopia/ Abyssinia, by which he successfully harried and defeated the Fascists.

And today his legacy in Israel will have to be rediscovered, as Jews even in their own country find themselves confronting renewed and constant passive-aggression (spiked with outbreaks of 'hot' aggression) from the Enemy Within, the Arab Muslim Fifth Column that resides on Israeli soil.

Read these twp articles, and see how some in Israel are figuring out a citizens' response.

This is not about angry young men rioting in mobs. This is much more thoughtful and focused.

For inspiration. Read carefully. Pray; think; share it with your pastor and village elders.

http://www.carolineglick.com/e/2008/03/the-new-guardians-of-israel.php


The New Guardians of Israel

http://www.carolineglick.com/e/2008/05/update-on-the-new-israeli-guar-1.php

Update on the New Israeli Guardsmen
May 15, 2008, 9:42 PM


And: you probably know this already, but - Muslims *only* call for 'talks' and 'truce' and 'peace' if they think they are losing, and want a timeout within which to regroup and rearm (and if you are foolish enough to give them what they ask, then the moment they feel strong enough to get the drop on you, they will break whatever 'agreement' they have made, and stab you in the back). So: don't give them what they want.

I know it goes against the grain for anyone brought up with a Christian mindset, but alas, the moment when Muslims come crying to you with a white flag is the moment that you have to go in and hit **harder**.


Might be time for the churches over there to check for bombs before services, or ban unfamiliar faces. Block off the street if you have to.

Why do so many Muslims deside to separate from their families and stay in prison rather than give up Jesus? Why are they willing to die thank give up Jesus and the Bible? Why have soo many Muslims become Christians and love the name of Jesus? Why do people take the name of Jesus in vain instead of Allah? Why did that one Boko Haram Terrorist become a Christian although his childrenh were shot - He wouldn't give up the name of Jesus. What is it with this man they call Jesus? Someone told me it is because Jesus said, I am the Way the Truth and the Life, no man comes to the Father except through me. Wasn't He the one who died for everyon's sins and paid their price for sin? If He is to judge everyone like my friend says, I think I would want to know more about Him to, after all, so many Muslims are finding out He is really the truth. People hate the name of Jesus so much there really must be a whole lot of power in that name, or at least, in the blood He spilled, right?

The Christain church was essentially pacifist in its dealing, that is, until Islam wiped out 55% of its congregation. Then the church realised that you cannot turn the other cheek to fanatics who have no conscience and in fact glorify their murders.

So unless we DEFEND ourselves against these barbarians via Hammurapi's code they will continue to murder. It took the church several hundred yars to wake up and work this out.

We do NOT have that much time.

As far as I am concerned you do NOT talk to Muslims. You confront them and if they are violent you become more violent as only that do they understand. You cannot reason, discuss or even talk to them as they word is as clean as their left hand.However, you must never initiate the violence as it is so easy to provoke them just by your presence or by disagreeing with them..

In all western countires we have level one Jihad and in some we have two already (Sweden Elect someone with the guts to repress these barbarinas and to deportt them back to their still Roman sewered hellhole.

DDA

Muslims *only* call for 'talks' and 'truce' and 'peace' if they think they are losing, and want a timeout within which to regroup and rearm.

Historically, there have not been many times when Muslims have been losing but the prophet PBUH devised a strategy via Shariat which was very powerful to counter this rarity.

One man's marriage to 4 women - with correct education and training to the children as they were growing up.

This meant that a new army was available to us in only 30 years. We know that the "enemy" in the meantime would engage in excesses like music practice and interests in the arts.

Never within their minds do they expect another "round" of war within the 30 years - it set the fear of god in the kuffar women, whilst heroic stories were spread with the muslim ranks. It is how the Ottoman Empire came about.

The British put paid to this type strategy in Sudan with their introduction of the machine gun in the 1800s, when those lily livered soldiers defeated 50,000 muslims with 10000 of their own. However hard it is to accept this reality, muslims need to fact that this was factual and has led to much more non-violent dawa mechanisms to persuade people to join Islam.


I know it goes against the grain for anyone brought up with a Christian mindset, but alas, the moment when Muslims come crying to you with a white flag is the moment that you have to go in and hit **harder**

That's the spirit DDA - now you are getting with the program.

This was Muhammed's solution for the Quarashi corporate greed types, glad to see that you too endorse his actions.

"but the prophet PBUH"
Correction: False prophet. That's if he existed which is doubtful to say the least. But even if you examine his teaching and behaviour as a fictional character there is no way he could be called a true prophet except as a prophet for the Demon.

"Muhammed's solution for the Quarashi.."
There's no comparison here. Moh massacred the 3 Jewish tribes of Arabia. He had no reason for attacking them other than blood-lust and looting.

As Holocaust survivors have said over and over, "When someone tells you that he wants to kill you, believe him."

Religion of peace? Forgetaboutit.

You wrote: The British put paid to this type strategy in Sudan with their introduction of the machine gun in the 1800s, when those lily livered soldiers defeated 50,000 muslims with 10,000 of their own.

Yes, infidel technology f****ed Islam then, and is doing so now via the infidel Internet and drones, for example. How many Nobel prizes does Islam have compared to the hundreds gained by Jews? How many Muslim Einsteins are there? Zero!

And d'ya know why, you brainless bint? Because Islam is anti-Science and anti-human progress!

Clown!

Having spent a good part of my life in Nigeria, my heart bleeds when reading about the atrocities unleashed by Muslims against Christians! Nigerians should not forget that it was only ‘tribes’ existed in Nigeria and the religion came in not too long ago! I have seen brothers of same family practicing different religions while sharing the same roof! They lived in harmony. What the Muslims are doing now is obviously under the influence of ‘petro-dollars’ of Arab nations. Arab Monarchs do not want to practice democracy because they don’t want lose control over the ‘black gold’ that brings them the power and the ultra-luxury they are enjoying now unchallenged! Arab nations fund and provide men (the men who are potential threat to the fragile Arab Monarchy) to wage religious war in other countries where people of other religions live in peace.
Hope soon the Nigerian Muslim Brothers shall understand this and live in peace and harmony with their Christian Brothers.

Buraq,

Yes infidel technology is very good - I have said it before too , I much admire it and make use of it too.

As for drones killing those fancy "Koran bashers" in Afghanistan and Sudan - you crack on son - those are not the people (or the strategies they use) that is going to help assimilate Islam in the West.

I know that Islam can not compete militarily with the West, but it doesn't need to - the West has three huge weaknesses.

1) Corporate Greed; Just like the Quarashi, Westerners cannot help but try to make a fast fat buck, no matter who gets hurt; this means that (almost the latest) Western developed technology will always be available to Muslim countries (and hence non government troops too). Do you know for example that the Russians are landing their marines and supplying very modern anti-ship and anti-aircraft weapons to that villain Assad of Syria, see http://www.debka.com/article/22090/Russia-flies-anti-air-anti-ship-missiles-to-Assad-as-its-fleet-heads-to-Tartus.

Do you know that these will be used to attack Western armed forces if you "try to help" and these will be left behind for Syria to use against the Israelis.

2) Lack of Political Will. You can win battles but not a war. We have seen this in Vietnam, Korea, Iraq, Afghanistan etc...

3) Compassion and Laziness
Money, home creature comforts, materialistic instincts have made you lazy; You will always want someone else to drive the buses, taxis, trains, labour, etc - and you invite us in. Only we do the work but also we bring our culture, our religion and we invite you to both (which some people take exception to), C'est la vie.

For huge Islamic influence and (possibly non reversal) tenets of sharia - we have only to do only one thing in the west - nothing.

By doing nothing we get access to grants, land, mosque building, teachers, governerships, Mayorships, access to Parliaments to spread our influence.

What I don't want to see is hassle from Al-Qaeda and other nasties that want to spoil the party - so I am with you 100% - drone the bastards.

Whilst the West sleeps we increase influence and show you our dedication to our ways of life - so thumbs up to your administration who so love our money - and allow us to do nothing.

Sharia will come - thanks to you - not to us -

we have done nothing.

I wouldn't put it past Obama, with Sec. of State Clinton whspering in his ear (and Bill at a sumptuous dinner whispering into the other ear), to let the Northern Nigerian Muslims manufacture some story about a "genocide" against them by the Southern Christians, and then go in and bomb the Christians until the Muslims win -- as we did in the former Yugoslavia with the Bosnians/Albanians and Serbs respectively.

Whilst the West sleeps we increase influence and show you our dedication to our ways of life - so thumbs up to your administration who so love our money - and allow us to do nothing.

I am totally in agreement with you. However one question: what is so great about YOUR WAY OF LIFE that makes you DEDICATED and makes a lot of you BLOW THEMSELVES UP AND KILL INNOCENT PEOPLE?.

Why does Nasseem always post as a female? How many wars have the musloids won lately? Why are you always getting your arses kicked by the Israelis.Why if they are so dedicated do they all want to flee to the west? Why am i wasting time talking to this schizoid?

Your assumptions are wrong.

Consider what happens in the UK - 50% of Muslim men and 75% of Muslim women are unemployed - essentially they live on dole.

So, Muslims do not work hard - its just not part of their culture. In fact, for all necessary inventions, they depend upon infidels. Muslims "leech" off existing societies or at best depend upon natural resources like oil.

Now coming to corporate greed - what do you think pays for the dole of unemployed Muslim men in countries like Canada or the UK. Yes, the same Muslim men, who think grooming under-age girls is employment. That same corporate greed, that you despise!! Muslim societies in our countries live off the dollars paid for by corporate capitalism.

Without corporate greed, countries like Egypt and Pakistan would not have be able to support their begging bowl economies. Where will the baksheesh come from?

Don't worry about Sharia - if it ever takes over, its inherent intellectual slavery will reduce humanity to little better than goats in about 50 years. Who will invent the follow-on to penicillin - scientists in saudi Arabia, Afghanistan or Pakistan?

Sam,

You will have seen from previous posts of mine - I am totally against violence.

You can see that I want muslims to do nothing in the West.

There are others who cannot wait - yet others who have been schooled in Afghanistan and Sudan that you have not "droned" quickly enough.

Again many do not have patience - We have excellent family values - but some do not bring their children up well enough - there is no "Bismillah" blessing in their ear each night.

You certainly cannot hold us all responsible for the actions of a few.


Sorry to burst your little sharia-bubble, Reza, but islam is going exactly NOWHERE in the West. There are lots of reasons for this, but the biggest factor of all--I mean, besides the inherent repression and barbarism--is MUSLIMS themsleves! You are your own worst advertisement. Even if you wanted to take-over peacefully--and you do--there's that little jihad problem, isn't there? Your evil coda makes all non-muslims the enemies of islam--so, you pretty much hate everyone else and everyone else pretty much ends-up hating you--little wonder there! And, as much as you try to pass yourself off as "peaceful," your true-believers are out there demonstrating what islam is REALLY about--and that's pretty ugly, after all, isn't it? And...you can't control them can you? But then, control isn't exactly a big feature of islam anyway, is it?

So, try as you might, your sorry "religion" is doomed. There are way too many free and decent poeple in this world to put with islam--too much knowledge about what it REALLY is and means, too many jihadists perping atrocities, not enough lies to cover it up.

Oh, and keep sending those jihadis, every 30 years will be fine, thanks. And, we'll keep kicking their asses!

Sorry, but you're toast! Thanks for playing, though...

Then maybe you could make a start here and now. How about condemning the death penalty for apostates; suicide bombers in both the east and the west and any and all honour killings.(bismillah in your ear....wot a joke.)

"From now on, they either follow the right religion or there will be no peace for them": Muslim group claims responsibility for Nigeria church bombings that killed 50

As Muhammad said, "I have been commanded to fight against people so long as they do not declare that there is no god but Allah, and he who professed it was guaranteed the protection of his property and life on my behalf except for the right affairs rest with Allah." -- Sahih Muslim 30
...

"Mensch Keymelon" wrote:

You can always count on the Pam Gellers and the Robert Spencers of the world to pull some out of context obscure quote from another religion they scarcely undrestand (sic) yet hate...and get it so wrong...that they appear like ignorant savages painting themselves with fecal medium to ward off the evil spirits.

He's so wrong it is sad...pathetic really...that the people who are misfortunate (sic) enough to give this charlatan attenton (sic) and, God forbid, even money for his drivel, believe what he alludes to as "factual"

It should not take this loser long to block any true voice of opposition.

As much as he lauds free speach (sic), he can't handle the cold hard truth.
.........................................

Which is *what*? That's an awful lot of verbiage to say nothing at all.

Clearly, Boka Haram believes that Christians are fair game to be murdered if they do not "follow the right religion". Where did they get this outré idea?

The fact is, they hardly base this idea on one Hadith, no matter how Sahih.

The Qur'an contains over a hundred verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers for the sake of Islamic rule.

Qur'an 8:39: "And fight with them until there is no more fitna (disorder, unbelief) and religion should be only for Allah"

Qur'an 9:123: "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness."

Qur'an 48:29: "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are ruthless against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves"

Qur'an 9:29: "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

And here's more from the Hadith:

The Messenger of Allah said: "I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah"
Muslim (1:33)

Allah's Apostle said, "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah'. And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally."
Bukhari (8:387)

How is Robert Spencer misreading these Islamic texts?

More importantly, how is the murderous Boko Haram misreading them? Perhaps you should take the matter up with them before they continue their bloody Jihad against unbelievers.

Also, don't you think you should coordinate things better with your fellow Muslim trolls?

While you are meretriciously trying to imply that Robert Spencer is all wrong about Islam being a violent creed, Rezali Mehil is in full gloating Muslim supremacist mode, ranting about Muslims practicing polygamy in order to raise armies and asserting that Christian compassion is a weakness.

Really, she's rather undercutting cutting your message, don't you think?

Violence seems to be the discussion point now. o one wants violence. No one wants war . But some times you just have to make a stand. I see man's greatest creation:"western culture" with all of its warts and your sneers, at risk form fanatical barbarians who see violence as their tool.

We must learn from history that only VIOLENCE stops fanatical violence. Like it or lump it that is fact and to say ohterwsie is simply exposing your neck to the knife.

All of you pacifists make me sick. I was one for 14 yrs and I had the shit knocked out of me. They lkaughed as they kicked and punched, extinguished cigarettes on my arms and shoved my face into the toilet bowl.
They had no conscience and they liked it as it was so easy.
At 15 I stopped being a pacifist and a Christian. Within 6 months i was left alone and I have NEVER thrown the first punch as with judo i had no need.

I can imagine a pacifist as someone is raping his daugher:"please don't do that"

Wake up and live in the real world like the poor bloody Ibos and the rest of the Nigerian Christians.

If you want a laugh, I have dared several Australian politicians to wear a Muhamamd T shirt through Lakemba at 1pm on a Friday. No problems here with Muslims they say, but strangely no takers.

Methinks replying to Melonhead is a waste of time.

Bizarrely, you wrote: '...the West has three huge weaknesses..... 1)Corporate Greed 2)Lack of political will 3)Compassion and Laziness'

You think corporate greed doesn't exist in Islam ...!! What does the chapter Al Anfal in Al Qur'an mean? It means 'the spoils of war'. The whole chapter is taken up with who gets what when splitting up the booty from caravans attacked by the Medina Mafia led by the desert bandit, Mohammed.
And the reason why Islam lost the battle of Tours in 732 was because Charles Martel sent an attachment of soldiers to attack the booty kept behind the Muslim hordes. When the Muslims saw their booty was being taken, they lost their shape and discipline and broke ranks... and lost!

You don't think we have political will ...!! The Crusades, expelling Islam from Europe and Spain, containing it during the latter part of the Ottoman Empire, harvesting tons of Talib in Afghanistan using drones right now, killing bin Laden, Al Wacky, and a host of others.
When push comes to shove, we can take on anyone and reduce them to DNA samples.

Compassion ...!! Well, well, well, compassion is a weakness, not a strength. Only a clown from the bizarro circus of Islam could think that compassion is a weakness.

Clown!

This post is directed to R. Spencer and my friends here at JW, as well as GirlyBoy.

GirlyBoy said:

"We know that the "enemy" in the meantime would engage in excesses like music practice and interests in the arts."
______________________________________________________

You're a fool, and I don't need to say it anymore. DDA, Graven, Buraq and George have all stated the case for me better than I ever could.

You're a murderous, Jew-hating, vile excuse for a human being, and while some, including Spencer, may believe that allowing you to continue to issue veiled threats and to spew your genocidal wishes on this site is "illustrative"; well, so are the paintings of Mark Rothko - but that doesn't mean I need to stand in the Louvre again, staring at those masses of color in order to be convinced of his "technique", nor would I benefit from any further allowance of Reza/Naseem on this platform vis a vis further, Islamic, "illustration".

This should be obvious after so much vileness, Robert.

And now I'm gonna put my money where my mouth is.

Ban this vile entity, or I will self-ban for a period of 1 month, or until I have seen that "it" has no longer been given a platform to threaten, defame and spread hatred and violence.

Enough is enough, Robert.

We have all had quite enough "illustration" to get the vile message.

*Lots* of nastiness here.

Rezali Mehil wrote, replying to Dumbledore's Army:

One man's marriage to 4 women - with correct education and training to the children as they were growing up.

This meant that a new army was available to us in only 30 years.
.........................................

This is how Islam regards children—as breeding *an army*.

More:

We know that the "enemy" in the meantime would engage in excesses like music practice and interests in the arts.
.........................................

No chance of that with Muslims—they hate music and art. They hate it not only because of its beauty, but because they believe it gets in the way of their waging violent Jihad.

Luckily, Infidels are intelligent enough that we can multitask. We were able to fight against Jihad incursions while building cathedrals, and fight against Fascism while maintaining symphony orchestras. What a novel concept!

More:

The British put paid to this type strategy in Sudan with their introduction of the machine gun in the 1800s, when those lily livered soldiers defeated 50,000 muslims with 10000 of their own. However hard it is to accept this reality, muslims need to fact that this was factual and has led to much more non-violent dawa mechanisms to persuade people to join Islam.
.........................................

Well, *this* is interesting. Here Rezali is implying that Muslims only turn to Da'wa when they are unable to violently *force* their vile creed on their victims.

By the way, you're rather undercutting your coreligionist's Taqiyya here with this sort of thing. Perhaps you should coordinate with "Mensch Keymelon", so that you present a consistent message.

More:

This was Muhammed's solution for the Quarashi corporate greed types, glad to see that you too endorse his actions.
.........................................

Here's more of her ridiculous assertion that Islam's main purpose is to counter "corporate greed". I suppose that's why Muslims in Nigeria are *bombing churches*. They are doing the same in Egypt and Pakistan, where Christians are severely oppressed. Your "corporate greed" argument makes even less sense than usual here.

More, in reply to Buraq:

Buraq,

Yes infidel technology is very good - I have said it before too , I much admire it and make use of it too.
.........................................

Very common with Muslims. "Bi'da"—innovation—is Haram, but they make an exception for weaponry.

More;

As for drones killing those fancy "Koran bashers" in Afghanistan and Sudan - you crack on son - those are not the people (or the strategies they use) that is going to help assimilate Islam in the West.
.........................................

What makes you think Buraq wants to see Islam assimilated into the West?

More:

I know that Islam can not compete militarily with the West, but it doesn't need to - the West has three huge weaknesses.

1) Corporate Greed; Just like the Quarashi, Westerners cannot help but try to make a fast fat buck, no matter who gets hurt; this means that (almost the latest) Western developed technology will always be available to Muslim countries (and hence non government troops too).
.........................................

Well, you're right here. Trading with Muslims is quite foolish. They often use perfectly innocent technologies as weaponry—such as cellphones as triggers for IEDs. And sales of arms to Muslim nations regularly wind up in the hands of Jihadists.

Better to isolate then. One of the few really solid decisions the United States has made in regard to Islam was to cut off trade and diplomatic relations with the appalling "Islamic Republic of Iran".

More:

Do you know that these will be used to attack Western armed forces if you "try to help" and these will be left behind for Syria to use against the Israelis.
.........................................

Amazing what Rezali is willing to openly admit. This is all the more reason that we should stay out of Syria. There are no "good guys" there.

More:

3) Compassion...
.........................................

Only a vicious Muslim would consider compassion *a weakness*. This tells you a great deal about Islam.

More:

By doing nothing we get access to grants, land, mosque building, teachers, governerships, Mayorships, access to Parliaments to spread our influence.

What I don't want to see is hassle from Al-Qaeda and other nasties that want to spoil the party - so I am with you 100% - drone the bastards.
.........................................

Rezali is a committed "Slow Jihadist", for whom the "Fast Jihadists" like Al-Qaeda are an annoyance in that there actions are more likely to wake us up.

Of course, the "Fast Jihadists" consider the "Slow Jihadists" "insufficiently Islamic" for not charging off to kill for Allah. In fact, they often savagely target "Slow Jihadists" just as they do Infidels.

In the end, though, its just a matter of strategy for them.

More:

Sharia will come - thanks to you - not to us -

we have done nothing.
.........................................

What crap. Shari'ah is not some sort of natural state—it always has to be imposed by vicious Muslims.

More, in reply to Sam Arisan:

Again many do not have patience - We have excellent family values - but some do not bring their children up well enough - there is no "Bismillah" blessing in their ear each night.

You certainly cannot hold us all responsible for the actions of a few.
.........................................

The above may seem a bit oblique, but this is Rezali's apologia for Muslim "Honor Killings". She favors Muslim infiltration into the free West, but realizes that some of her coreligionists—especially young women—may actually take Western freedoms to heart.

Her solution for that is that they be "Honor Killed" by their Muslim families—*these* are the "excellent family values" she refers to.

More on her love of "Honor Killing" here:

"Aunt of Texas honor killing victims says police have bungled murder investigation"

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/05/aunt-of-texas-honor-killing-victims-says-police-have-bungled-murder-investigation.html

Although she has not restricted herself to that thread—she has elsewhere characterized the murderers in "Honor Killing" cases as the "true victims". Ugh.


"...there is no 'Bismillah'..."

I think Reza should be banned for using this forum as a thinly-disguised and shameless advertising forum for an islamic product. I saw this ad last week in the "Cairo Times-Democrat:"

My islamic brothers! Living in dar-el-harb getting you down? Mohammad from New York writes:

"Yesterday, 2 infidel fares in a row with dogs--DOGS in my cab! Aiiieeee, there go my stomach again!"

No need to suffer, brave mujahadeen! Now there's new triple-action Pepto Bismallah! Pepto Bismallah gives immediate relief from infidel-caused upset stomach; first it decapitates acid at the source. But, then it keeps fighting--molesting and harrassing and mutilating those infidel acid-sources for hours! And, it's non-clinically proven by islamic scientists. Here's a testimonial from Dr. Ayman al-Zawahiri:

"Try new Pepto Bismallah today! Or I KEEL YOU!"

And, new TRIPLE ACTION Pepto Bismallah also contains Erectarrest (TM)! No more "arousal embarrassment" from those attractive infidel women! And, it can be used topically to relieve the pain from cab-seat hemhorroids and those annoying camel sores!

Triple Action Pepto Bismallah! Available at finer drug counters eveywhere in Dar al Islam! Try it today--OR ELSE!


I rest my case...

Banning reza, shcmeza and mench was it, would be honoring them. When I was involved in the yahoo posts discussion about the Ground Zero mosque, there was a "terrotist resident" on board, who filled pages and pages with "I will piss on church from mosq".
He was filling up space with himself, reproducing his infertile thought.

( The discussion on yahoo was about rebuilding the St Nicholas Church that was destroyed on Ground Zero.)
It may be a mental workout to assess what is discussion and what is detraction?

I was called "thread Nazi" by LemonLime for suggesting analytical awareness as to keep the space for thoughts unobstructed, I wonder what his thoughts are when people are getting impatient and want a ban altogether.

I personally do not believe in a ban.
When we go to the supermarket, we do not hold a big discourse about rotten vegetables that stink.
We just don't buy them.
It is only up to us to read a comment and buy it. Or not.

George, thanks for the much needed laugh!

David Dowse wrote:

Ban this vile entity, or I will self-ban for a period of 1 month, or until I have seen that "it" has no longer been given a platform to threaten, defame and spread hatred and violence.
......................................

David, *please don't go*.

I share your frustration—and, especially, your revulsion.

But we shouldn't *ever* let Muslims drive us off if we can help it. Not here, and not in the wider world.

It's going to be a long, long, fight, and there will be plenty of "Rezali Mehils" on the way—and lots of "Mensch Keymelons, and lots of "Ds", and lots of "DefendersofIslam", as well.

Whether you choose to ignore these vile Muslim trolls, or to engage them, we need you here.

We need your voice here—your knowledge, your expertise, and your moral decency.

Please stay, David. Stay and fight.

Self bans are all about attention seeking - you don't get your way and want to run to mummy or hide.

You want people like to Graven to beg you to stay - BUT she needs help too - because she wants you to be part of her wolf pack against Rezali - she might not be able to cope on her own, you do know that don't you?

Being a professor is all about answering questions, and staying cool under pressure and you have been unable to do either; you have been tested and have come short I'm afraid.

Never mind Dowsie, you look after your dad in that month,but please be sure to get enough rest yourself too.

My blessings are with you for that month "Bismillah....Bismillah....Bismillah"

There can be no better blessing than this - all the chapters of the Koran start with this other than one.

Oh dear Naseem; bismillah in the korant is only there to pad out its disgusting verses and give a wee bit of gloss to its rantings; I can see why you are attracted to it with your love of dream sequences and musloid inanities. Keep taking the tablets

I reiterate my advice which I've repeated a few times on the occasion of just 5% of all the various times over the years various different Muslims and Islam apologists have brought their mendacious sophistry into comments sections:

Only engage their comments in the 3rd person, and try to keep your posts just about the facts, ma'am.

LemomLime wrote:

Only engage their comments in the 3rd person, and try to keep your posts just about the facts, ma'am.
..................................

Generally very good advice, LemonLime.

What would Mohammad say about the issue in this article?

Well, it's been documented by him in the first Federated Constitution any society ever drew up:

"2.Non-Muslim members have equal political and cultural rights as Muslims. They will have autonomy and freedom of religion.[23]"

Gee, I wonder why "modern" Muslims are getting this so wrong? (...much to the glee of those here.)

"As Muhammad said, "I have been commanded to fight against people so long as they do not declare that there is no god but Allah, and he who professed it was guaranteed the protection of his property and life on my behalf except for the right affairs rest with Allah." -- Sahih Muslim 30"

THIS is what I am talking about.

The article is just a color RS has chosen to paint with becuase it fits into his sick twisted world view.

The above "snippet" RS inserted has nothing to do with the tragedy unfolding under the hands of the ignorant in Nigeria. Nothing at all.

Want to find out what Mohammad stated himself as guided by the religion for those people of diverse religion, culture, and creed all living together in a Federated State in Madinah after 622 AD? Read the above posting.

It's the filthy underhanded spin that RS puts on everything that I hate...he lies this way, openly to you but you don't know it because of all his smoke and mirrors.

Federated Constitution of Madinah: stated plainly, non-muslim members of the Ummah have the right to equal political and cultural rights as Muslims. They have autonomy and freedom of religion."

That IS what Mohammad said in direct reference to a situation where Muslims had a dominant position in the society.

Gee...what are the Nigerian "Muslims" noted in this article doing? Does it seem to fit with the ideal order from Mohammad himself?

No, it does not.

But you let RS take his dirty little scissors and his twisted world view and he perverts any thing from the religion he touches and then he feeds it to you folks and you eat it up without question.

It would be funny if it wasn't so tragic.

That is what I am on about when I comment on how RS is a liar and a charlatan...

Read above ...this is the lie I have been pointing out.

All of your out of context quotes are just spin garbage from you...they don't apply to the article...they are just sick twisted projections from you.

You don't know their context, or understand their meaning at all.

As I have stated in the past, no amount of proof will change the minds of the bigots here...you could lead them like a horse to the water and shove their nose into it...they will drown before they drink...that is how ignorant they are.

The quote I posted from the Federated Constitution of Madinah directly applys to how a Muslim entity is to treat those in the society with them.

Gee, that quote is directly from the Man, Mohammad....it doesn't seem to have quite the same slimy feel as you and RS's take on things does it?

The truth is pretty plain and right in front of you. The clause is direcly in context with the subject of the article and proves the Nigerian "Muslims" are absolutely wrong in their activity as well as proving RS is a lying journalist with a sick twisted world view on Islam.

"Mensch Keymelon" wrote:

What would Mohammad say about the issue in this article?

Well, it's been documented by him in the first Federated Constitution any society ever drew up:

"2.Non-Muslim members have equal political and cultural rights as Muslims. They will have autonomy and freedom of religion.
.....................................

What absolute rot. The "Prophet" Muhammed feigned tolerance while he was weak. He rendered first Medina, then all of Arabia free of Jews, Christians, and pagans as soon as he was able.

He went on several campaigns of slaughtering and enslaving entire tribes of Jews.

More:

Gee, I wonder why "modern" Muslims are getting this so wrong? (...much to the glee of those here.)
.....................................

No one here is "gleeful" over Muslims continuing their slaughter of Christians and other non-Muslims.

If "Mensch Keymelon" indeed believes that his vicious coreligionists in Nigeria have gotten their faith all wrong in mass-murdering Christians and destroying their churches, perhaps he should take it up with them.

More, in reply to Sam Arisan:

"As Muhammad said, "I have been commanded to fight against people so long as they do not declare that there is no god but Allah, and he who professed it was guaranteed the protection of his property and life on my behalf except for the right affairs rest with Allah." -- Sahih Muslim 30"

THIS is what I am talking about.

The article is just a color RS has chosen to paint with becuase it fits into his sick twisted world view.

The above "snippet" RS inserted has nothing to do with the tragedy unfolding under the hands of the ignorant in Nigeria. Nothing at all.
.....................................

Does "Mensch Keymelon" deny the Sahih Hadiths? His fellow Muslims might well regard him as an apostate, in that case. And that *seldom* goes well for the accused...

And it is abundantly clear that Boko Haram is acting on just these sort of canonical Muslim texts.

More, in reply to myself:

All of your out of context quotes are just spin garbage from you...they don't apply to the article...they are just sick twisted projections from you.

You don't know their context, or understand their meaning at all.
.....................................

And yet, Muslims are currently murdering and driving out Christians and other Infidels from not just Nigeria, but from Iraq, Pakistan, Lebanon, Egypt, Syria, Indonesia, and Malaysia on the basis of just these texts.

Why do his coreligionists have this all so very wrong, and what is "Mensch Keymelon" doing to correct their terrible misunderstandings of their own faith?

More:

The quote I posted from the Federated Constitution of Madinah directly applys to how a Muslim entity is to treat those in the society with them.
.....................................

And yet, Infidels are oppressed, abused, and murdered throughout Dar-al-Islam today, as well as throughout Muslim history. Don't expect "Mensch Keymelon" to have a cogent answer for this.

More:

The truth is pretty plain and right in front of you...
.....................................

Well, that's true. The terrible violence of Muslims toward Infidels is on full display in this article, and in all too many other cases, all over the Muslim world.

Mensch Keymelon wrote:

What would Mohammad say about the issue in this article?

Well, it's been documented by him in the first Federated Constitution any society ever drew up:

"2.Non-Muslim members have equal political and cultural rights as Muslims. They will have autonomy and freedom of religion.[23]"

This comment of Keymelon's is odd on a number of accounts.

First, he claims that Muhammad "documented" a constitution -- indeed a "Federated" Constitution with a capital C. Puts me in mind of that famous portrait of Muhammad standing tall and brave in a boat wearing a powdered white wig, crossing the Delaware...

Aside from the fact that Muhammad was supposed to have been illiterate, I doubt that any Arabs of the 7th century were drafting "Federated Constitutions".

And, naturally, when I Google "2.Non-Muslim members have equal political and cultural rights as Muslims. They will have autonomy and freedom of religion.[23]" I get six results -- out of millions and millions on the Net -- all to dubious blogs. One of them links to a Wikipedia article --

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Medina#cite_ref-21

-- in which that quote from the "Federated Constitution" is footnoted and ascribed to "Article 15, as quoted in Ahmed (1979), p. 46-7". Nowhere in the article does it say who "Ahmed" is or what the title of his book is supposed to be. That's one of the reasons why I don't like Wikipedia: it's footnotes are often shoddy and inadequate. So what am I supposed to do now? Spend an hour trying to hunt down "Ahmed" and some book he wrote in 1979? And then when I find it, will it too be shoddy and inadequate? Anway, this isn't my job (to present adequate citations for claims made); it's Keymelon's -- since he made the claim. Somehow, though, I doubt he'll come through. They never do. Speaking of which:

P.S.: Hey guys, remember "Zinedine"? I stumbled on this old thread of 91 comments from 2010, and there was yet another in a long line of Muslim apologists trying to blow smoke up our asses.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/09/iranians-chant-us-pastor-must-be-killed.html#comment-710806

To go down memory lane, click on the penultimate comment there on that link, in which dumbledoresarmy nicely sums up the thread, then work your way back. Zinedine and Keymelon and Rezali are a dime a dozen; 3 out of literally several dozen we could pick out of a fez from the Jihad Watch archives.

correction: its footnotes, for "it's footnotes"

LemonLime wrote:

This comment of Keymelon's is odd on a number of accounts.

First, he claims that Muhammad "documented" a constitution -- indeed a "Federated" Constitution with a capital C. Puts me in mind of that famous portrait of Muhammad standing tall and brave in a boat wearing a powdered white wig, crossing the Delaware...
........................................

Excellent sleuthing, LemonLime—thanks. I was so busy dealing with the aftermath of Muhammed's alleged "federation" that I didn't address the implausibility of the existence of any such thing in the first place.

Bit difficult to have a "Federated Constitution" in the absence of, among other things, a federation—add to that the fact that Islamic rule has never been anything but a dictatorship, and this becomes even more absurd.

I suppose "Ahmed"—whoever he was—was, like Imam Rauf, attempting to "prove" that Shari'ah is not only perfectly in line with American democracy, but that it preceded it by 1200 years. What idiocy.

And you're right about Muslim trolls being a dime a dozen. Sometimes they do indeed show up again in different guises, but often they sound so similar because there are only a handful of tacks they can take as Muslim apologists—Taqiyya, whitewashing, denial, random obfuscation, or mask-dropping, full-on Islamic supremacy.

In fact, on this very thread we have the bizarre spectacle of Muslim trolls with wildly clashing tactics—sneering denial and gloating triumphalism.

Thank you for your warm remarks here and elsewhere.

GI, I am willing to temporarily give-up my privilege of Free Speech as a form of protest against those who would fail in the responsible exercise of theirs by advocating such things as the cutting of the clitoris, the mandating of the Hijab (and Misogyny at-large), or by making veiled references to Genocide. I’m no Jew. I’m just some Schmo from California.

Nevertheless, I can neither tolerate the insane desire to kill off Jewish people nor stomach any form of Religious Supremacy. I happen to be Catholic, myself, but who cares?

This self-ban is, of course, both despite and due to my obvious affection and respect for JWatch, Spencer and powerhouses like you.

See you on July 21st, dear.

Here’s a little poem that I wrote for you, in response to the “long fight” you brought up.

I know it’s horrible, but anyway.

METASYNTHESIS and MALEVOLENCE
Those who wheel from lands afar
To steal our Heaven, to take our stars,
Have little hope, of robbing our hearts or pilfering our minds
Of all we’ve yet found and are yet to find,
In that infinite well - on tri-part tables at which we dine,
In that Western Ocean that feeds our thirst and quenches the mind
To the ends of the earth, no matter how far ‘tis.

DMD 6-20-12

Gravenimage,

You don't need to go off on a tangent, stick on the topic.

The Federated Constitution was drawn up by Mohammad. It is a fact of history, the first Federated Constitution by any society.

Refute the claim.

You can't.

Going off on some spin about the garbage posted here is not adressing the fact.

You are avoiding the substance of the document itself.

It's not some "modern" idiot trying to cover their crimes by quoting hadiths out of context...or some cad like RS doing the same...it is an official state document of Madina that is directly juxtaposed to the way the people adresses the article are treating other people in their community.

I said it before, it doens't matter how much proof and evidence I post here, you are a bigot and you will remain as such.

Islam is not the root of the problem, it's human beings who do not follow it properly - that is the problem.

Lemonlime,

Again, your lack of any true knowledge of the subject at hand is your hamstring.

Next I imagine you'll deny Mohammed generated the Treaty of Hudaybia.

You can't even deal wit historical fact honestly...thats one of the tactics of people like you...raise doubt, do whatever you can to discredit the information, then say "aha!" see taqyia!

You are person of pretty weak character when your bigotry prevents you even adressing facts.

But don't worry, you can throw in enough emotionally driven hyperbole and distract a neutral reader from researching the document and understanding the facts.

Notice Mensch Keymelon's response to my simple challenge that he back up his claim with adequate evidence: He produces no evidence.

He only reiterates his claim without evidence, tossing in a red herring ("Next I imagine you'll deny Mohammed generated the Treaty of Hudaybia.") for good measure. Other than that, over 90% of his comment (95 words long) is sheer ad hominem -- with a little projection thrown in at the end there:

...you can throw in enough emotionally driven hyperbole and distract a neutral reader from researching the document and understanding the facts...

Keymelon still has a ways to go to rise beyond his tossed salad of melon balls, red herring & small potatoes. I'm sure he can do it if he really gives it the old Madrassa Try.

LemonLime,

Evidence? Some things are so simple they are common knowledge...but since you are even simpler than that,
I guess I owe it to myself to "prove" it to you:

Cambridge University Press, International Journal of Middle East Studies:

International Journal of Middle East Studies (2009), 41 : pp 555-575
Copyright © Cambridge University Press 2009

DOI: http://dx.doi.org/10.1017/S0020743809990067 (About DOI) Published online: 26 October 2009

Articles

THE CONSTITUTION OF MEDINA: A SOCIOLEGAL INTERPRETATION OF MUHAMMAD'S ACTS OF FOUNDATION OF THE UMMA


Saïd Amir Arjomand c1

One of the oldest extant documents in Islamic history records a set of deeds executed by Muhammad after his migration (hijra) in 622 from Mecca to Yathrib, subsequently known as “the City [madīna] of the Prophet.” Marking the beginning of the Islamic era, the document comprising the deeds has been the subject of well over a century of modern scholarship and is commonly called the “Constitution of Medina”—with some justification, although the first modern scholar who studied it at the end of the 19th century, Julius Wellhausen, more accurately described it as the “municipal charter” (Gemeindeordnung) of Medina. In 1889, Wellhausen highlighted the text's antiquity, which has been acknowledged by even the most skeptical of contemporary “source-critical” scholars, Patricia Crone, who thinks that, in Ibn Ishaq's Sira, “it sticks out like a piece of solid rock in an accumulation of rubble.”


http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=6417212

That little stinging is just your bigotry urging you to try and go discredit the source.

Like I said before and just proved now...Muhammad generated the first Federated Constitution of any society.

Whether you accept it or not, fact is fact.

LemonLime.

"...which has been acknowledged by even the most skeptical of contemporary “source-critical” scholars, Patricia Crone, who thinks that, in Ibn Ishaq's Sira, “it sticks out like a piece of solid rock in an accumulation of rubble.”"


That was worth posting twice.

Re: Mensch Keymelon's responses above, they seem to be further obfuscations; for my challenge to him was not to produce evidence that the "Federated Constitution" (or the "Medina Charter" we now see it may be more accurately called) existed; but rather evidence to establish whether that stipulation he quoted ("2.Non-Muslim members have equal political and cultural rights as Muslims. They will have autonomy and freedom of religion.[23]") as being allegedly contained therein really is there as he quoted -- which, of course, involves the determination of whether that English translation of the original Arabic is adequate. It's certainly not my job to go tracking down Crone or Wellhausen (much less some Bedouin baboon given an affirmative-action scholar's cap by way of the University of Chicago that grants him privileges to publish in Cambridge journals) to find this out: it's still Keymelon's job, whether he's too dense to realize that or not.

Could Keymelon=Chameleon (a pretty rough attempt on his part) be the doctor from Egypt that we here at JW successfully managed to get fired from his job at the Mayo Clinic?

"Mensch Keymelon" wrote:

You don't need to go off on a tangent, stick on the topic.
......................................

Well, let's. Firstly, there is no original surviving document.

Secondly, the Wikipedia page containing the "English translations" of the "Medina Charter" is plastered in warnings, because the provenance *is unknown*.

But let's assume for the sake of argument that such an original document did indeed exist.

"Mensch Keymelon" then runs into further trouble, because the piece he cites is *rife with Muslim supremacism*.

This, from the unspecified "1st Translation":

14. No believer shall kill a believer on account of an unbeliever; neither shall he help an unbeliever against a believer.

15. The protection of Allah is one; the protection granted by the least of them is binding on all. The believers protect each other to the exclusion of [other] people.

And this, from the unspecified "Alternate Translation":

12. A Believer will not kill another Believer, for the sake of an un-Believer. (i.e. even though the un-Believer is his close relative).

13. No Believer will help an un-Believer against a Believer.

15. Believers are all friends to each other to the exclusion of all others.

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Medina

"Mensch Keymelon" wrote:

The quote I posted from the Federated Constitution of Madinah directly applys to how a Muslim entity is to treat those in the society with them.
......................................

And the quotes above—from the same source—show that this is just more of the same Islamic supremacy. Odd how that keeps happening...

LemonLime wrote:

...in which that quote from the "Federated Constitution" is footnoted and ascribed to "Article 15, as quoted in Ahmed (1979), p. 46-7". Nowhere in the article does it say who "Ahmed" is or what the title of his book is supposed to be.
.......................................

LemonLime, I believe I have found "Ahmed". In line with Wikipedia's frequently flaky scholarship, he is actually Barakat Ahmad (not Ahmed).

He is listed on the same page under "Further Reading". I'm sure this is same reference, since he is the author of "Muhammad and the Jews" (1979) Vikas Publishing House—published the same year as the other citations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Medina

I know a fair amount about book publishing, and I had never heard of Vikas Publishing House. They seem to do a lot of high-tech and business "how to" books, mostly for community colleges and tech schools. History is not high on their list.

http://vikaspublishing.com/index.swf

Syed Barakat Ahmad has this to say, on his Wikipedia page:

Ahmad says that to the best of his knowledge, he is the first Muslim scholar to deal with the Jews of Yathrib in the spirit of independent study and research. [1] In "Muhammad and the Jews: A Re-examination", he questions the validity of the accepted accounts of Muhammad's expulsion of Banu Qaynuqa and execution of Banu Qurayza.
.......................................

On what basis does he "question the validity of the accepted accounts"?

Here we go:

Ahmad further argues that the account given by Ibn Ishaq cannot possibly be accurate[5], as, for example, states that the beheading and burial of 600-900 men would have been physically too colossal an undertaking for a small city like Medina,. He also writes that the corpses would have constituted an obvious menace to public health.[1]

[punctuation original—GI]
.......................................

So—the only thing that stopped the "Prophet" from this level of mass murder is that the murderers could not have buried all the victims. Does anyone else find this the queasiest possible argument?

Besides, they could have just done what so many Nazis did during their own mass executions of Jews, and have had the victims themselves both dig the mass grave and bury the first victims.

More:

To support his thesis, Ahmad also points to Jewish sources' silence about the incidents.[5]
.......................................

Well, *this* is grimly hilarious. In the wake of these incidents, all the Jews were dead or enslaved...

In any case, it is certainly a stretch to go from, essentially, an assertion that the genocidal Muslims rather inflated the body count, to an unsubstantiated speculation that the Muslims were any sort of good neighbors to the Medinan Jews.

For what it's worth, you can find the Wikipedia page here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barakat_Ahmad

LemonLime

I guess if you are incapable of dealing with the truth you can just throw up more smoke and mirrors, right?

"No, No, I didn't mean prove it existed! I meant some other challenge...."

Its a never ending circle with you jerks ( pun intended ) you refuse to accept truth, when you are incapable of overcoming it, you simply try to discredit the source and confuse on lookers.

Caio.

No. Not the same person.

LemonLime ( and gravenimage)


"2.Non-Muslim members have equal political and cultural rights as Muslims. They will have autonomy and freedom of religion.[23]"

The above quote was from a researcher....some translations authors have used different nomenclature and referenced the document articles differently...content is the same.

Since you are an abrasive asshole, I spent the time to dig up the clauses for your benefit so you can see how they qualify the above comment from the researcher.

Interesting to note, the document spends a lot of legislative energy clarifying the Jewish problems they had with other Jews...this document and the State of Madina was initiated as a means to settle all disputes and make peace among all parties and guarntee EQUAL POLITICAL AND CULTURAL RIGHTS AND FREEDOM OF RELIGION.

Note Article No. 39, 50 and 58 GUARANTEE the rights of Non Jewish Non Muslim constituents of the Banu Aws = Pagans. So EVERY member of Madina was protected.

Read on.


****************************

Constitution of Madina

Article No. 30 Guarantee of freedom of religion for both the Muslims and Non-Muslims.

The Jews of Banu Awf shall be considered community along with the believers. They shall be guaranteed the right of religious freedom along with the Muslims. The right shall be conferred on their associates as well as themselves except those who are guilty of oppression or the violators of treaties. They will bring evil only on themselves and their family.

Article No. 31 Equality of rights for the Jews of Nanu Najjar with the Jews of Banu Awf

The Jews of Banu Najjar shall enjoy the same rights as granted to the Jews of Banu Awf.

Article No. 32 Equality of rights for the Jews of Banu Harith with the Jews of Banu Awf.

The Jews of Banu Harith shall enjoy the same rights as granted to the Jews of Banu Awf.

Article No. 33 Equality of rights for the Jews of Banu Sa'ida with the Jews of Banu Awf.

The Jews of Banu Sa'ida shall enjoy the same rights as granted to the Jews of Banu Awf.

Article No. 34 Equality of rights for the Jews of Banu Jusham with the Jews of Banu Awf.

The Jews of Banu Jusham shall enjoy the same rights as granted to the Jews of Banu Awf.

Article No. 35 Equality of rights for the Jews of Banu Aws with the Jews of Banu Awf.

The Jews of Banu Aws shall enjoy the same rights as granted to the Jews of Banu Awf.

Article No. 36 Equality of rights for the Jews of Banu Tha'laba with the Jews of Banu Awf.

The Jews of Banu Tha'Laba shall enjoy the same rights as granted to the Jews of Banu Awf except those who are guilty of opression or violate treaties, they will bring evil only on themselves and their family.

Article No. 37 Equality of rights for Jafna, the branch of Banu Tha'laba, with the Jews of Banu Awf.

Jafna, a branch of Banu Tha'laba, shall enjoy the same rihts granted to Banu Tha'laba.

Article No. 38 Equality of rights for the Jews of Banu Shutayba with the Jews of Banu Awf.

The Jews of Banu Shutayba shall enjoy the same rights granted to the Jews of Banu Awf, There shall be colete compliance and no violation.

Article No. 39 Equality of rights for all the associates of the tribe Tha'laba.

All associates of the Banu Tha'laba shall enjoy the same rights as granted to thBanu Tha'laba.

Article No. 40. Equality of rights for all branches of the Jews.

All sub-branches of the Jews shall enjoy the same rights as granted to them.

Article No. 50 Equal rights of life protection shall be granted to everyone who has been given the constitutional shelter.

A person given constitutional shelter shall be granted an equal right to life protection as long as he commits no harm and foes not act treacherously.

Article No 58 The basic constituent members of this document and their associates shall possess the equal constitutional status.

The Jews of Aws and their allies shall posses the same constitutional status as the other parties to this document, with a condition they should thoroughly sincere and hones in their dealing with the parties.

******************************


It has been proven:

1. The Constitution was Generated by Mohammad.
2. It's exisistence is solid fact proven grudgingly by a scholarly detractor.
3. The Articles provided prove the intial position of note #2. ( see above )


Now, LemonLime and gravenimage, it's up to you two to disprove the information provided.

Or just tow the party line and maintain the status quo by whining more and demanding more and denying and basically crumbling up and folding.

Your turn.

LemonLime & gravenimage,

Here, I'll even be a sport and make your first pathetic jabs for you:

"thBanu (sic)"

"opression (sic)"

"guarntee (sic)"

"rihts (sic)"

"exisistence (sic)"

"intial (sic)" (ooohh, I am so cool!)

Now all that is left is for you to try and make substantive commentary on the content and meaning.

"Yeah, and maybe I'm a Chinese jet pilot."

gravenimage,

Thanks for taking the time and trouble to find out what you did; it appears so far from your research that the particular stipulation Mensch Keymelon claimed to exist was not ascertainable by you. I will shortly undergo the Gitmo torture of reading Keymelon's latest subsequent posts.

CGW,

Anything's possible with these chameleons; though I think it's too much to hope that their number is not legion enough to preclude the good doctor.

LemonLime,

I did not post the whole document, but once you wade through the specific clauses that prove my point I'd be glad to post the resource so you can read it in it's entirety and complain about the "perceived injustice" in the rest of it.

Remember, the city of Madina sent delegates to Mohammad in Makka for just this purpose, they sought him to come and make peace among them.

He did.

Please follow up with me, I want your honest opinions...I mean, the barbs and the baiting are all in fun, but lets make it something real, shall we?

Mensch Keymelon wrote re: my above posts re: him:

I guess if you are incapable of dealing with the truth you can just throw up more smoke and mirrors, right?

"No, No, I didn't mean prove it existed! I meant some other challenge...."

There is no proof in my comments above that my initial challenge to Keymelon was one thing, then changed to another: my challenge always referenced the provision he claimed to have quoted from what he called the "Federated Constitution" of Medina -- namely:

"2.Non-Muslim members have equal political and cultural rights as Muslims. They will have autonomy and freedom of religion.[23]"

My other snarky commentary concerning the amusing anachronism of such a document; as well as the preposterousness of Keymelon's wording about the creation of this "Federated Constitution" -- viz., that it was "documented by" Mohammed -- were peripheral to the point of my challenge, which Keymelon has been trying, transparently and embarrassingly, to evade by stalling and by throwing up smoky stink-bombs of diversions in the form of insults, ad hominems, red herrings that try to confuse what's central from what's peripheral, and projections asserting that it is I trying to throw up diversions (when, obviously, it is him).

Now that we have that out of the way (though it's nothing I didn't say before, above, in so many words), we can examine Keymelon's latest refuse of melon rinds, coffee grounds and discarded egg shells he dumped on our front step.

Oh, one more thing: before he begins, Keymelon invokes the condemnation of me (and by extension gravenimage and the rest of us) that we are Kafirs -- which literally means, according to the Koran, those who deliberately "cover over" the truth of Allah, even though they know what it is, doing this out of sheer demonic mendacity and wickedness.

Its a never ending circle with you jerks ( pun intended ) you refuse to accept truth, when you are incapable of overcoming it, you simply try to discredit the source and confuse on lookers.

And we know what the punishment is in the Koran for such willful blindness.

Anywho:

Concerning the quote he claimed was "documented by" Mohammed in his "Federated Constitution” --

"2.Non-Muslim members have equal political and cultural rights as Muslims. They will have autonomy and freedom of religion.[23]"

Keymelon writes:

“The above quote was from a researcher....some translations authors have used different nomenclature and referenced the document articles differently...content is the same.”

First of all, the potential problem with the translation of Keymelon’s claimed quote from Arabic to English has nothing to do with “nomenclature” – it has to do with words and terminology (e.g., the crucial phrase “equal… as Muslims.”).

Secondly, in Western scholarship concerning historiographical documentation, the referencing is standardized: we don’t have a sloppy jungle of paraphernalia as Orientals tend to have. Thus, when making claims about a supposed historical document, only Western scholarship about its contents will suffice. “Referenced the document articles differently” simply won’t do – for it precisely makes it impossible to verify that “content is the same” as Keymelon claims. Even worse is when no documentation reference is supplied at all -- as we shall see is the problem with Keymelon's citation. Had Keymelon had an adequate Western education, he would know that a documentation reference for a primary historiographical source (as this "Medina Charter" is alleged to be) must include the following:

1. Source of publication of the primary source:

a. Publisher
b. Editor
c. Translator (if the original is in a different language)

2. Date of publication of the primary source.

3. Page numbers where all the citations are found in #1.

None of this, of course, did Keymelon provide. He apparently thinks that historical documents just float around in the air, or hang like ripe fruit on trees in public parks, or simply lie on the ground as found objects.

(For a precious few historcal documents that are so famous, everyone knows them and they have been referenced a million times and copies exist in millions of schools and bookstores around the world -- e.g., the U.S. Constitution, the Magna Carta, the Ten Commandments, the lyrics to "Happy Birthday"; etc. -- one can get away with simply citing a website that contains them. For a more controversial and less famous document, however, such as this "Medina Charter", more rigorous citation procedures are required.)

Anywho, let’s forge ahead:

Keymelon writes:

“I spent the time to dig up the clauses for your benefit so you can see how they qualify the above comment from the researcher.

“Interesting to note, the document spends a lot of legislative energy clarifying the Jewish problems they had with other Jews...this document and the State of Madina was initiated as a means to settle all disputes and make peace among all parties and guarntee EQUAL POLITICAL AND CULTURAL RIGHTS AND FREEDOM OF RELIGION.

"Note Article No. 39, 50 and 58 GUARANTEE the rights of Non Jewish Non Muslim constituents of the Banu Aws = Pagans. So EVERY member of Madina was protected.

Read on.”

Nothing Keymelon has claimed and cited above, apparently with regard to the “Medina Charter” in question, is referenced. I have no way of knowing whether he got it out of thin air, or whether its source is compromised by shoddy transmission, etc.

At any rate, Keymelon goes on, apparently, to quote from the “Constitution of Madina” – again, without a reference citation:

“Constitution of Madina

“Article No. 30 Guarantee of freedom of religion for both the Muslims and Non-Muslims.

“The Jews of Banu Awf shall be considered community along with the believers. They shall be guaranteed the right of religious freedom along with the Muslims. The right shall be conferred on their associates as well as themselves except those who are guilty of oppression or the violators of treaties. They will bring evil only on themselves and their family.

“Article No. 31 Equality of rights for the Jews of Nanu Najjar with the Jews of Banu Awf

“The Jews of Banu Najjar shall enjoy the same rights as granted to the Jews of Banu Awf.

“Article No. 32 Equality of rights for the Jews of Banu Harith with the Jews of Banu Awf.

“The Jews of Banu Harith shall enjoy the same rights as granted to the Jews of Banu Awf.

“Article No. 33 Equality of rights for the Jews of Banu Sa'ida with the Jews of Banu Awf.

“The Jews of Banu Sa'ida shall enjoy the same rights as granted to the Jews of Banu Awf.

“Article No. 34 Equality of rights for the Jews of Banu Jusham with the Jews of Banu Awf.

“The Jews of Banu Jusham shall enjoy the same rights as granted to the Jews of Banu Awf.

“Article No. 35 Equality of rights for the Jews of Banu Aws with the Jews of Banu Awf.

“The Jews of Banu Aws shall enjoy the same rights as granted to the Jews of Banu Awf.

“Article No. 36 Equality of rights for the Jews of Banu Tha'laba with the Jews of Banu Awf.

“The Jews of Banu Tha'Laba shall enjoy the same rights as granted to the Jews of Banu Awf except those who are guilty of opression or violate treaties, they will bring evil only on themselves and their family.

“Article No. 37 Equality of rights for Jafna, the branch of Banu Tha'laba, with the Jews of Banu Awf.

“Jafna, a branch of Banu Tha'laba, shall enjoy the same rihts granted to Banu Tha'laba.

“Article No. 38 Equality of rights for the Jews of Banu Shutayba with the Jews of Banu Awf.

“The Jews of Banu Shutayba shall enjoy the same rights granted to the Jews of Banu Awf, There shall be colete compliance and no violation.

“Article No. 39 Equality of rights for all the associates of the tribe Tha'laba.

“All associates of the Banu Tha'laba shall enjoy the same rights as granted to thBanu Tha'laba.

“Article No. 40. Equality of rights for all branches of the Jews.

“All sub-branches of the Jews shall enjoy the same rights as granted to them.

“Article No. 50 Equal rights of life protection shall be granted to everyone who has been given the constitutional shelter.

“A person given constitutional shelter shall be granted an equal right to life protection as long as he commits no harm and foes not act treacherously.

“Article No 58 The basic constituent members of this document and their associates shall possess the equal constitutional status.

“The Jews of Aws and their allies shall posses the same constitutional status as the other parties to this document, with a condition they should thoroughly sincere and hones in their dealing with the parties.”

The unremarkably intelligent reader will note that all the verbiage quoted from the “Constitution of Madina” by Keymelon fails to substantiate his central claim with regard to the crucial point I noted parenthetically above – namely, the claim that the “Constitution of Madina” guarantees to Jews “equality... as Muslims.” Rather, all the verbiage cited by Keymelon above (without reference) only substantiates that the “Constitution of Madina” guarantees to Jews equality with other Jews.

The tedious Keymelon goes on to thump his chest in typical Arabic fashion:

“It has been proven:

“1. The Constitution was Generated by Mohammad.
“2. It's exisistence is solid fact proven grudgingly by a scholarly detractor.
“3. The Articles provided prove the intial position of note #2. ( see above )”

No; in fact, nothing has been proven. Keymelon didn’t cite where he got this “Constitution of Madina” from, nor who translated it into English, nor whether that translation is valid. This fact concerns all three enumerated points above that he triumphantly claims have “been proven”.

Specifically concerning #3 – the central claim of Keymelon’s in question – it is easy to see, as I noted above in bold, that the “Articles” do not prove the “initial position of note #2”. For, that “initial position” was, to remind the reader –

"2.Non-Muslim members have equal political and cultural rights as Muslims. They will have autonomy and freedom of religion.[23]"

Nowhere in Keymelon’s copious citation of “Articles” is there any mention of “Non-Muslim members”; and, most importantly, nowhere in Keymelon’s copious citation of “Articles” is there any mention of any non-Muslims (Jews or otherwise) having “equal political and cultural rights as Muslims” [bold emphasis added].

That little which loophole Keymelon hopes we won’t notice has always been the linchpin of all Islamic legislation. It is why the Organization of Islamic Conference (recently renamed “Organization of Islamic Cooperation”) – which represents the political leaders and the ulemas of all 50+ Muslim nations around the world – rejected the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights (which guarantees equal rights to all minorities equal to the majority) and, instead, drafted its own “Cairo Declaration”, which specifically makes all rights to minorities (i.e., non-Muslims) conditional upon Sharia -- which effectively nullifies their rights in relation to the rights enjoyed by the Muslim majority.

Notice that "Mensch Keymelon" won't deal with passages *from his own sources* that indicate that there was no real equality between "believers" and Jews and other non-Muslims in Medina.

If some passages indicate equality and other do not, it is axiomatic that Infidels were not considered equal in some very important particulars, such as the worth of their lives and that no "believer" would protect them against other Muslims.

And this is all very much in line with what is happening in Nigeria *right now*, as indicated by the above story.

Even when Muslims attempt to whitewash their ugly history, the savagery so often shows through.

gravenimage,

I think you meant to say this, but your locution is liable to ambiguity:

"Notice that "Mensch Keymelon" won't deal with passages *from his own sources* that indicate that there was no real equality between "believers" and Jews and other non-Muslims in Medina."

I would reword it thusly:

"Notice that "Mensch Keymelon" won't deal with passages *from his own sources* that indicate that there was no real equality in Medina between "believers", on the one hand, and Jews and other non-Muslims, on the other hand."

Not only that, but as I pointed out above, Keymelon's sources don't mention non-Muslims in general at all -- only Jewish tribes. However, his initial claim which we have been trying to pull teeth to get him to substantiate, specifically used the term "non-Muslims" without specification. At any rate, his own sources do not establish even that Jews were given equality with Muslims -- but they were only given equality with other Jews.

Why the "Medina Charter" would go out of its way to so laboriously establish "equality" between and among the various Jewish tribes is rather curious -- unless it was less of a matter of granting Jews any meaningful equality, and more of a matter of making sure that all Jews would be collectively defined vis-a-vis their Conqueror, the Muslims.

LemonLime "Secondly, in Western scholarship concerning historiographical documentation, blah blah blah"

"1. Source of publication of the primary source:"

Oh, man, this crap IS rich!

A person here on JW regurgitating hadiths out of context out of any association with their real meaning posting nothing of scholarly value about them and cheering each time Robert Spencer pukes forth the same drivel ... a person like that had the straight faced gall to state this.
That is funny, really funny.

What I posted of the Constitution of Madina exceeds the level of "scholarship" of 95% of what Robert Spencer himself posts...in fact, far exceeds it. So you are getting better than you give.

********************************************

And now, the most arrogant and yet at the same time dumbest comment I have ever read:

LemonLime (Retard comment #2 [bold emphasis not required] ) "The unremarkably intelligent reader will note that all the verbiage quoted from the “Constitution of Madina” by Keymelon fails to substantiate his central claim with regard to the crucial point I noted parenthetically above – namely, the claim that the “Constitution of Madina” guarantees to Jews “equality... as Muslims.” Rather, all the verbiage cited by Keymelon above (without reference) only substantiates that the “Constitution of Madina” guarantees to Jews equality with other Jews."

So I guess that makes LemonLime "Sub-Unremarkable" is that like Retarded or Sub-Retarded? Perhaps a slug like apparition lacking opposable thumbs that types with pseudopodia? Hmmmm, could be...

Lets get on to the mundane task of showing dumbass (LemonLime) how much dumbass he really is.

LemonLime “equal… as Muslims.”).

Article 30 confers equal rights in religion and society to the Jewish tribe of Banu Aws as the Muslims.

"Article No. 30 Guarantee of freedom of religion for both the Muslims and Non-Muslims.

The Jews of Banu Awf shall be considered community along with the believers. They shall be guaranteed the right of religious freedom along with the Muslims. The right shall be conferred on their associates as well as themselves except those who are guilty of oppression or the violators of treaties. They will bring evil only on themselves and their family."

All other articles referenced clarify each independent Jewish tribe as having equal rights as the Banu Aws - "community along with the believers", " guaranteed the right of religious freedom " and even further an open blanket statement to any sub-tribe of Jews associated with the Jewish tribes noted in the constitution.

LemonLime (Retard comment #2 [bold emphasis not required] ) "Nowhere in Keymelon’s copious citation of “Articles” is there any mention of “Non-Muslim members”; and, most importantly, nowhere in Keymelon’s copious citation of “Articles” is there any mention of any non-Muslims (Jews or otherwise) having “equal political and cultural rights as Muslims” [bold emphasis added]."

(*** added below by Mensch for clarification)

" Article No. 40. Equality of rights for all branches of the Jews.
All sub-branches*** of the Jews shall enjoy the same rights as granted to them."

"Article No 58 The basic constituent members*** of this document and their associates*** shall possess the equal constitutional status.

The Jews of Aws and their allies*** shall posses the same constitutional status as the other parties to this document, with a condition they should thoroughly sincere and honest in their dealing with the parties."

Key words***, LemonLime Articles #40 & #58:

"members"*** = Jews ALL TRIBES associated, Pagans associated with those tribes

"and their allies***" = Jews ALL TRIBES associated, Pagans associated with those tribes, Christians, ( non committed - did they have Agnostics then? Don't know...probably.)

"and their associates ****= Jews ALL TRIBES associated, Pagans associated with those tribes, Christians, ( non committed - did they have Agnostics then? Don't know...probably.)

"all sub branches" = every Jew associated with Banu Aws and all Families noted with equal rights as Banu Aws.


***************************


Look, I know you are prone to smoke and mirrors and hysterical emotional somantics deliverd in a snarky tone, so, just to keep you focused...at this point we have clarified the document confers rights “equal… as Muslims.”) to all Jewish Members of Madina, and ALL related Jews noted and of their Jewish sub tribes and all of their non-specified allies and associates = (ALL = Pagans, Christians, Martians ( if any were around) - ALL)

The moral of this post is LemonLime can't read the simple language itself and come away without lying like a dog about it.

The first article #30 blatantly states “equal… as Muslims.”) then the other articles include EVERYONE from among the Jews as “equal… as Muslims.”) and furthermore All Sub-tribes of Jews “equal… as Muslims.”) and even their Associates and Allies ( Pagans and All) “equal… as Muslims.”)

You have a habit of letting the train run off the track and in ten directions....stay on point.... you might get to the point that way.

“equal… as Muslims.”) Point proven.

gravenimage,

Read the response to LemonLime "Sub-Unremarkable"above, all of the points denied being proven in fact were proven...he just can't read and understand in the same neural pathway - it's too plugged up with bigotry.

But the law of the land is the law of the land, and as you noted some of the tribes associated actually did violate the terms of the constutition and were ejected from Madina, and furthermore some showed open treachery during the battle of the trench and faced Jewish justice afterwards.

Any treaty, any agreement, any covenant has two parts...if a signatory party does not uphold their end then they pay the price.

Integrity has its rewards.

Trechery, duplicity also has its reward.

We don't shed a tear when justice is carried out.

Clarification, LemonLime issued two retard comments, they were misnumbered by me. Read the first #2 as #1.

LemonLime wrote:

I think you meant to say this, but your locution is liable to ambiguity:

"Notice that "Mensch Keymelon" won't deal with passages *from his own sources* that indicate that there was no real equality between "believers" and Jews and other non-Muslims in Medina."

I would reword it thusly:

"Notice that "Mensch Keymelon" won't deal with passages *from his own sources* that indicate that there was no real equality in Medina between "believers", on the one hand, and Jews and other non-Muslims, on the other hand."
..........................................

Well, you're right, LemonLime. Your phrasing is much more precise, and is exactly what I meant. Thanks.

Note that "Mensch Keymelon", in his last, rambling post, *still* fails to deal with this point. He'd much prefer ignoring this further indication of vicious Muslim supremacy—too inconvenient.

Mensch Keymelon thinks "Article 30" proves his point, but it does not. Here's the text he quoted:

“Article No. 30 Guarantee of freedom of religion for both the Muslims and Non-Muslims.

“The Jews of Banu Awf shall be considered community along with the believers. They shall be guaranteed the right of religious freedom along with the Muslims. The right shall be conferred on their associates as well as themselves except those who are guilty of oppression or the violators of treaties. They will bring evil only on themselves and their family."

There is nothing in this Article 30 about equality with the Muslims. Once again, that Islamic loophole. "Freedom or religion" is guaranteed for both Muslims and Non-Muslims -- but not equality. Without equality, one can still have Muslims on top, and non-Muslims as second-class citizens.

Last chance to Keymelon: Prove that the Medina Charter guarantees equality of non-Muslims with Muslims in "cultural and political rights" -- as you claimed.

Show us #2 with a credible citation reference.

Otherwise, you fail to persuade us. It's that simple.


If you simply refuse to accept the measure of equality proven what's the point?

They were different people of differing religions and even no religion all banded together under the Constitution of Madina.

The document clearly states all members of the state and their freedom within the state to be their own people with their own religious freedom ... it clarifies the Jews of Banu Aws as being "considered community along with the Muslims" and having "freedom of religion."

All of their principles rights to freedom and equality as "community" are enshrined...through their religion they had their freedom of commerce, places of worship, self governance through their religion...what else do you want?

Do you want me to prove that all the Jews of Madina became Muslims and therefore were treated exactly the same as Muslims?

We are back to your standard tactic of denial and insistence upon further "proof."

So now you stand there like a child in circular pointless argument "I know you are but what am I?"

Instead of acknowledging that the leader of the Muslims generated a document guaranteeing equality as community and freedom of religion and protection for all Jews and their allies and associates you simply deny.

Was it you that brought up the subject of kufr "covering?"

Yeah, I think it was...

Mensch Keymelon:

You cited a verbatim quote from the Medina Charter --

"2.Non-Muslim members have equal political and cultural rights as Muslims. They will have autonomy and freedom of religion.[23]"

Source of your claim, from one of your comments above:

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/06/from-now-on-they-either-follow-the-right-religion-or-there-will-be-no-peace-for-them-muslim-group-cl.html#comment-886746

I've been asking you to show us with an adequate reference citation where this verbatim quote exists as part of the Medina Charter. You have failed to provide such an adequate reference citation, and instead, you have produced volumes of evasions in subsequent comments.

To educate Mensch Keymelon, I'll show him what an adequate reference citation looks like.

First, the historical quote: It was the words of Abdrahaman, a Muslim Ambassador from Tripoli, recorded by Thomas Jefferson and John Adams in 1786, to whom he spoke these words when explaining why North African Muslims were attacking Western ships, stealing their booty, and killing and kidnapping their crews and enslaving those they captured and ransoming their lives for more money. Jefferson and Adams described their questions to the Muslim Ambassador thusly:

We took the liberty to make some inquiries concerning the Grounds of their pretentions to make war upon Nations who had done them no Injury, and observed that we considered all mankind as our friends who had done us no wrong, nor had given us any provocation.

They then described how the Muslim Ambassador answered them:

The Ambassador answered us that it was founded on the Laws of their Prophet, that it was written in their Koran, that all nations who should not have acknowledged their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found, and to make slaves of all they could take as Prisoners, and that every Musselman who should be slain in battle was sure to go to Paradise.

Now, here follows the adequate reference citation to the above historical quotes and information:

The Papers of Thomas Jefferson, in 34 volumes (and still incomplete), pp. 357-9 in volume 9, under the entry titled:

“American Commissioners to John Jay
March 28th. 1786"

Julian P. Boyd, Editor
Princeton, NJ
Princeton University Press, 1954.

Advice and counsel for anyone who has lobbed in here, either today (June 25 2012) or on any later date, and has perseveringly waded through the comments thread thus far:

before you do anything else, go right back up to the top and re-read the posted article, *slowly* and carefully, and paying attention also to Mr Spencer's accompanying editorial observations.

Whenever a Mohammedan such as the one who has been active in this thread appears in a thread and takes it over, spewing out such masses of Nonsense and Lies, half-truths, evasions, ad hominems, outright insults, etc., chewing up reams of bandwidth, it is always a good idea to go right back and re-read the posted article.

Because *that* is the very last thing the Mohammedan wants you to do.

A further note. The slogan 'baffle 'em with bullshit' describes the Mohammedan technique of 'argument' (if it could be called that) to a T.

In this article

http://www.newenglishreview.org/blog_direct_link.cfm/blog_id/42534
Thursday, 14 June 2012
Alex Joffe On "Palestinian" Muslims And The Fabrication Of History

From The Middle East Quarterly:
The Rhetoric of Nonsense
Fabricating Palestinian History
by Alexander H. Joffe
Summer 2012, pp. 15-22

Joffe writes -

"As philosopher Harry Frankfurt put it

QUOTE 'The fact about himself that the bullshitter hides … is that the truth-values of his statements are of no central interest to him; what we are not to understand is that his intention is neither to report the truth nor to conceal it …

'A person who lies is thereby responding to the truth, and he is to that extent respectful of it …

'For the bullshitter, however, all these bets are off: He is neither on the side of the true nor on the side of the false.

'His eye is not on the facts at all, as the eyes of the honest man and of the liar are, except insofar as they may be pertinent to his interest in getting away with what he says.

'He does not care whether the things he says describe reality correctly. He just picks them out, or makes them up, to suit his purpose.' [from 'On Bullshit', p. 56]. UNQUOTE

"As Frankfurt describes it, such nonsensical rhetoric is constructed impulsively and without thought—entirely out of whole cloth.

"It is unconcerned with truth and so, unlike a lie, has license to be panoramic, unconcerned with context.

"The user is endeavoring to bluff, and the desire for effect is paramount.

"Whereas lying is austere and rigorous because it must triangulate against truth, nonsense loses, and loosens, the grasp on reality.

In that sense, its effect is corrosive, a matter not discussed by Frankfurt."

After reading that most illuminating passage, and Joffe's wider discussion, I am beginning to suspect that the texts of the Islamic trilogy - Quran, Sira, Hadith - and of many Mohammedan writers may perhaps be best approached as comprising for the most part that species of discourse which Frankfurt describes as...Bullshit. Malevolent Bullshit.

And that Bullshitting - even more than plain and simple brazen Lying, which Mohammedans also do with astonishing frequency and facility - may be a typical Mohammedan mode of discourse.


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“My comrade-in-arms, my pal, my buddy.”
Oriana Fallaci

“Robert Spencer incarnates intellectual courage when, all over the world, governments, intellectuals, churches, universities and media crawl under a hegemonic Universal Caliphate’s New Order. His achievement in the battle for the survival of free speech and dignity of man will remain as a fundamental monument to the love of, and the self-sacrifice for, liberty.”
Bat Ye’or

“Robert Spencer is indefatigable. He is keeping up the good fight long after many have already given up. I do not know what we would do without him. I appreciate all the intelligence and courage it takes to keep going despite the appeasement of the West.”
Ibn Warraq

“America's most informed, fearless, and compelling voice on modern jihadism.”
Andrew C. McCarthy, Senior Fellow at National Review Institute

“Robert Spencer is the leading voice of scholarship and reason in a world gone mad. If the West is to be saved, we will owe Robert Spencer an incalculable debt.”
Pamela Geller, Atlas Shrugs

"The consummate Islam critic and expert." — Bruce Bawer

“Over the years, we have become friends, and I have received his assistance on several pieces of legislation I proposed.”
Former Congressman Tom Tancredo

“Few people are capable of applying scholarship, analytical reasoning, and objectivity to their topic -- while simultaneously being readable and witty -- as can Robert Spencer.”
Raymond Ibrahim

“A national treasure...The acclaimed scholar of Islam.”
Frank Gaffney, Center for Security Policy

“I am indeed honored to call him my friend.”
Brad Thor, novelist

“A top American analyst of Islam....A serious scholar...I learn from him.”
Daniel Pipes

“A brilliant scholar and writer.”
Douglas Murray

"One of my best teachers."
Ashraf Ramelah, Voice of the Copts

“Thank God there’s at least one man with balls left in the West.”
Kathy Shaidle, Five Feet of Fury

“I read people like [Mark Steyn] and Bob Spencer and the rest of them, and I say, ‘Boortz, you’re pretending you’re an author. These people really are. They really write some entertaining, some standup stuff.’”
Neal Boortz

“Robert Spencer is the Stephen King of Jihad.”
Chris Gaubatz, Muslim Mafia

“Armed with facts and fearlessness, Spencer stands up for Western civilization.”
Michelle Malkin

“Widely read in conservative foreign policy circles.”
New York Times

“Widely read in many quarters in Washington.”
Washington Post

“A canny operative who likely has the inside track on the State Department’s Middle East affairs desk should the tea party win the White House.”
New York Magazine

“A hero of the American right.”
Karen Armstrong

"The leading anti-Islamic intellectual in the United States....The go-to Islam expert for the right wing."
Salon Magazine

“Robert Spencer is an Edward Said turned upside down.”
Stephen Suleyman Schwartz

“One of the nation's most notorious Islamophobes.”
Hamas-linked CAIR

"Geller and Spencer are probably the most important propagandizing Islamophobes in the world. These people's voices speak very loudly — not just here in the United States but overseas."
Heidi Beirach, Southern Poverty Law Center

“Satanic ignoramus.”
Khaleel Mohammed

“The Likud anti-Christ.”
Dar al-Hayat newspaper (Saudi Arabia)

“Zionist Crusader, missionary of hate, counter-Islam consultant.”
Al-Qaeda’s Adam Gadahn, “Azzam the American”



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