Taliban mass murder in hotel was because of "illicit fun" and alcohol

Well, right mind or not, they exist and there is at least 1 five star hotel in Kabul.

http://www.southtravels.com/asia/afghanistan/kabul.html

Peter, I think that Option61c was pointing out the obvious humor . .

Wow, I checked out the hotel . . . who would have believed it?

Thanx for the heads up on the humour angle CGW. I wasn't sure. We did have a news item a few months back where supposedly a Taliban terrorist turned himself in for the reward.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/04/taliban-commander-turns-himself-in-for-the-100-reward-money.html

This was an obvious put-on by some smart-ass reporter. So I could see the point of Option61c supposing that today's story might also be a set-up.

Yes, that hotel IS pretty awesome. Prior to the arrival of the Taliban, Kabul was a pretty great and Cosmopolitan city. It had television stations and women were allowed to participate in the programs.

Once the Taliban showed up the women were out in the street with no employment and forced to beg.

Kabul also had (and still has) a university that had real western-style faculties and taught real western-style subjects.

I know an Afghan who taught history at the University of Kabul and I can say that he really knows his subject like a pro. If he is an example of a standard Afghan prof then this University is better than a lot of North American Universities I can think of.

On the few occasions that I have had a chance to talk to him about Afghanistan he has made it pretty clear that the Taliban utterly destroyed his country and he believes that this destruction can be traced back to Saudi Arabia and the Wahhabis who were sent to teach at the madrassas in Pakistan.

I can't speak to the truth of this theory but from what his family has told me, Kabul was once a modern city that has been taken back a thousand years. That part sounds about right.

Peter

the 'modern city' was the thinnest of veneers over the medieval Islamic city underneath.

Ever read Phyllis Chesler's book 'My Afghan Captivity'?

She met a handsome nd poetic Afghan Muslim Prince Charming (who really was from quite a wealthy and highly-placed family, not merely pretending to be) in college in the USA in the 1960s and - blinded by the stars in her eyes - married him (she, a New York Jewish princess) and went off to Kabul to the family mansion.

And crashed head-on into the ugly realities of Islam. Even in Kabul as it then was, superficially westernised, in the 1960s. The very first thing that happened was that hubbie's family took her American passport away...

She did manage to get out, alive, just. She was *extremely* lucky.

The experience taught her that what is wrong with Muslim countries is not 'colonialism' or the baleful influence of Eeevil Western civilisation, or anything else but...ISLAM, Islam, Islam.

Hi DDA, although I haven't read her book (was unaware of its existence) I did read an article she wrote quite a while ago about her travails. That article mentioned her passport being taken from her by her in-laws.

Regarding "the 'modern city' was the thinnest of veneers over the medieval Islamic city underneath." That may or may not be true. Certainly it doesn't accord with what my Afghan friends tell me and it doesn't accord with the following statement in Time "New Hope For Afghanistan's Women"by Hillary Clinton (Nov 24, 2001)

"But how, some might say, can women emerge from behind the burqas to positions of leadership in Afghan society so quickly? One reason is that pre-Taliban Afghanistan was a place where women did play an important role: before 1996, for example, nearly half the doctors, university students and teachers in Kabul were women.

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,185643,00.html#ixzz1zATkLsUM"

Have a look at the following blog, near the end of the article is a picture from about 50 years ago from Afghanistan. This scene definitely doesn't match what most people think of for Afghanistan but it certainly matches what I was told about pre-Taliban days. Notice that males and females are in the same class, the females are not wearing anything that would be identifiable as Islamic. Nor are the males.

http://ghawayesh.blogspot.ca/2011/06/islam-is-solution-for-what-exactly.html

The Taliban was a disaster for Afghanistan.

But let's for the sake of argument accept that it was only a thin veneer of civilization. That has to be far better for them and us than what we have now and what we will have once the Taliban returns to power.

The fact that the Taliban is resurgent in itself bears some analysis. It actually was close to defeat a few years ago. From where did all this new manpower come? A big portion are probably from Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. I can remember in the early stages of the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan, they were finding Pakistani nationals and Saudi nationals left right and centre. I suspect that is still the case but now the newspapers are either no longer being supplied with that information or they are suppressing it.

I agree with Chesler that colonialism has nothing to do with the rise of Islam, it does appear, however, that Cold War politics certainly had a big part to play in what happened to Afghanistan. The USSR and the US 'chess game' in this region helped bring about the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden. That helped remove the veneer.

With the American presence in Afghanistan, women are back in television in Kabul but now that the U.S. is leaving the women are being told to conform more to Islamic standards. The Taliban rules are being phased back in so that by the time the U.S. forces make their exit the women will be just about where they were before the U.S. invasion of that country.

http://tribune.com.pk/story/336804/afghan-women-tv-presenters-told-more-veil-less-make-up/

The following article outlines the misogynistic laws implemented by the Taliban. These laws were to remove the civilized veneer as you put it from Afghanistan. The extent of the rules should make it pretty clear what Afghanistan was like pre-Taliban.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban_treatment_of_women

There is a little hope in this sad story:

http://www.asianage.com/international/woman-risks-life-bring-bowling-afghanistan-total-peace-mind-785

Not such a big deal although as the article says, the women could be killed but it shows that Muslims do not always fit the stereo-type we try to give them. Here is one person that believe that there can be fun in Islam.

Regarding Chesler's book, I offer as a counter to it two others:

http://www.amazon.com/My-Afghanistan-Taliban-Jean-Boyce/dp/0964282887

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Winter-Kandahar-Afghanistan-Before-Taliban/dp/1906393117

In both cases there are several reviews that reveal the gist of the contents.

Now, I'm not discounting what you are saying DDA I am merely pointing out that there is more to the story than you think.

Yes, Chesler had a hard time of it but what isn't obvious is how representative of Afghanistan her captors actually were. I keep thinking about Diana Spencer. She too had a prince charming until the marriage took place and she descended into hell as far as I'm concerned. Yet, she was lucky, she theoretically had civilized in-laws who were theoretically Christians. Diana Spencer's story also isn't indicative of what happens when you marry in the West.

By yes, Islam, Islam, Islam is the usual cause of Hell on earth.