Copts to be Excluded from Egypt’s Constitutional Committee for Believing Jesus is Son of God?

Might as well exclude the followers of Mohammed for believing that Allah had three daughters . (Whatever happened to them? Did Daddy get rid of them in an honor killing?)

To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

What is freedom for the Arab world today and can they leave Islam and live their lives?

http://www.maghrebchristians.com/2012/08/08/freedom-the-arab-world-and-faith/#ixzz22yKbSdZu

Youssef

Well, this confirms what I've read -- that in Islam, Christians and Jews are often considered a type of polytheist -- Christians because of Jesus, Jews because Qur'an 9:30 claims that Jews say Ezra is the son of God.

I wonder what the rejoinder to the lawyer will be, if there is a rejoinder...

Strict monotheism raises more logical problems than Trinitarianism: http://crombouke.blogspot.com/2010/01/tawhid-or-tawheed-versus-christian.html

The more I learn about Muslims, the less I like them.

Copts to be Excluded from Egypt’s Constitutional Committee for Believing Jesus is Son of God?

A Muslim lawyer in Egypt is arguing that, because Christians believe Jesus is the Son of God, they are clearly polytheistic infidels, and not the “Christians,” the “Nassara,” that the Koran speaks tolerably of, on occasion.
................................

To any normal person, this sounds *insane*. Copts are some of the very earliest Christians.

But to Muslims, this sounds perfectly orthodox.

When Muslims talk about Jews and Christians favorably, they mean *Jews and Christians who recognized Muhammed as "Prophet"*—in other words, Jews and Christians who *converted to Islam*.

A recent Muslim troll here made just that point re Jews.

More:

Accordingly, Egypt's Copts, because they profess the Trinity, must be barred from having any say regarding the new constitution. “Lawyer Requests Exclusion of Copts from Constitutional Committee for being ‘Polytheists’"
................................

In other words, only *Muslims* will be part of the process. But, at the same time, they have, if not "plausible deniability", at least deniability of some sort...

More:

Sherif Gadallah, a lawyer from Alexandria has submitted a report to the public prosecutor, against the president of the court of appeal, the Grand Imam of Al-Azhar Mosque, the interim Pope of Alexandria as well as President Mohamed Morsy requesting the exclusion of Copts from the committee in charge of forming Egypt's constitution, claiming that Orthodox Copts are not representative of Egypt's Christian population...
................................

I don't suppose anyone will ever ask Sherif Gadallah who these mysterious people are who are actually "representative of Egypt's Christian population"...

More:

Mr. Gadallah bases his request on purely Islamic grounds. He states that the essence of all heavenly religions is that "Allah is one and there is no god but Him", and that the prophets of Allah, Moses, Eissa [Arabic for Jesus] and Mohamed, are but humans sent by Allah to pass along His message to His Creatures, so if a certain denomination of a certain religion claims that their prophet is the "son of God" or "is God", it is then considered infidel and a dissident of that religion. Gadallah goes on to ask the Grand Mufti to have Al-Azhar issue a clear statement about the verdict of Sharia regarding Copts who claim that Jesus is the son of God…
................................

In other words, all true "Jews and Christians" were always—well—Muslims. This disturbing sleight of hand is perfectly mainstream Islam. It also neatly negates the few positive things said in the Qur'an re Jews and Christians, since they referred to those Jews and Christians who were actually Muslim...

Is this how Obama feels about non-Muslim public officials in the US, completely without power? He has demonstrated a willingness to disregard statutes, and even federal court opinions. But, any ordinary tyrant could display such contempt, not just an Islamic tyrant.

it is a wonder that the LORD of ALL LIVING allows such blasphemy as brought forth by this lawyer.

The truly singular and unique One - Creator, Savior and Comforter - as revealed in the texts forbidden by the Allah god (unknowable, imagined)to the followers of Muhammed (lately contrived), shall certainly punish all who believe as the Koran teaches and SHARIA demands be obeyed.

the only One has put on the hearts of humankind the desire for things eternal. that is why the Mosque is porous and the Brothers, enslaved to such a diety and spokesman so filled - not with grace and blessing - but blood lust, seek that which IS better for the soul.

to the "Lord is Our Righteousness" be all praise

"Both failed to have sons, because both were complete failures!"
Or... sexually impotent!
http://crossmuslims.blogspot.com/2011/01/prophetess-of-islam.html

The entry on "Copts" in the Catholic Encyclopedia has some interesting tidbits:

The Copts form the Church of Egypt. Monophysitism was in a special sense the national religion of Egypt.

From his time [the time of Dioscurus, founder of the Monophysite movement in the 5th century AD] the Monophysite party gained ground very quickly among the native population, so that soon it became an expression of their national feeling against the Imperial (Melchite, or Melkite [i.e., the Greeks]) garrison and government officials.

Afterwards, at the Moslem invasion (641), the opposition was so strong that the native Egyptians threw in their lot with the conquerors against the Greeks.

The two sides are still represented by the native Monophysites and the Orthodox minority. The Monophysites are sometimes called Jacobites here as in Syria; but the old national name Copt (Gr. Aigyptios) has become the regular one for their Church as well as for their nation. Their patriarch, with the title of Alexandria, succeeds Dioscurus... ruling over thirteen dioceses and about 500,000 subjects.

What is "Monophysite" Christianity? The issue is extremely complex, but it can be said that historically, the Monophysite doctrine evolved as a reaction against the Nestorian doctrine -- both of which were trying to understand the divinity of Jesus Christ vis-a-vis his humanity, and both of which found the mainstream Christian view based upon the Councils to be unsatisfactory.

The Catholic Encyclopedia has this helpful, if drastically oversimplified scheme describing how each of the three groups understand Christ with relation to his humanity and divinity:

Nestorians: One person, two hypostases, two natures.
Monophysites: One person, one hypostasis, one nature.
Catholics: One person, one hypostasis, two natures.

(Note: the Orthodox in this regard agree with the Catholics Christology.)

Hence the term "Monophysite" -- Mono = One, Physite = from Physis, Greek for "Nature". As such, Copts are schismatic from both the Orthodox and the Catholic Churches. (From the Catholic Encyclopedia -- Schism: "In the language of theology and canon law, the rupture of ecclesiastical union and unity.")

Just to give a tiny sample of the complexity of the issue, read this from the Catholic Encyclopedia entry on this:

It is urged by Bethune-Baker that Nestorius and his friends took the word hypostasis in the sense of nature, and by Lebon that the Monophysites took nature in the sense of hypostasis, so that both parties really intended the Catholic doctrine. There is a prima facie argument against both these pleas. Granted that for centuries controversialists full of odium theologicum might misunderstand one another and fight about words while agreeing as to the underlying doctrines, yet it remains that the words person, hypostasis, nature (prosopon, hypostasis, physis) had received in the second half of the fourth century a perfectly definite meaning, as to which the whole Church was at one. All agreed that in the Holy Trinity there is one Nature (physia or physis) having three Hypostases of Persons. If in Christology the Nestorians used hypostasis and the Monophysites physis in a new sense, not only does it follow that their use of words was singularly inconsistent and inexcusable, but (what is far more important) that they can have had no difficulty in seeing what was the true meaning of Catholic councils, popes, and theologians, who consistently used the words in one and the same sense with regard both to the Trinity and the Incarnation. There would be every excuse for Catholics if they misunderstood such a strange "derangement of epitaphs" on the part of the schismatics, but the schismatics must have easily grasped the Catholic position. As a fact the Antiochene party had no difficulty in coming to terms with St. Leo; they understood him well enough, and declared that they had always meant what he meant. How far this was a fact must be discussed under NESTORIANISM. But the Monophysites always withstood the Catholic doctrine, declaring it to be Nestorian, or half Nestorian, and that it divided Christ into two.

To get a fuller sense of the complexity (but still only abbreviated, since it's only an encyclopedia, not an exhaustive scholarly treatment), see the complete entry:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10489b.htm

According to the CIA Factbook on Egypt:

Religions:
Muslim (mostly Sunni) 90%, Coptic 9%, other Christian 1%

Population:
83,688,164 (July 2012 est.)

This indicates that there are "other Christians" besides the Coptic Monophysite majority, and that those "others" are likely original Orthodox. It seems unlikely, however, that the Muslim lawyer from Alexandria, Sherif Gadallah, is concerned to protect and promote this tiny 1% of Orthodox -- unless, perhaps, he sees it as a way to hamper the Coptic majority.

Re the Christian population of Egypt.

The vast majority are Copts, around 8 million.

The CIA factbook doesn't go into detail on who comprises the 'other' Christians of Egypt, a much smaller percentage. However, *I* have access to a Christian sourcebook - called 'Operation World', it being intended as a guide for those engaged in intercessory prayer - which, relying on all sorts of sources including missionaries and other observers and the official representatives of Christians of other traditions, does provide a rather more detailed picture.

There were guesstimated to be, at that time, about half a million Protestants of assorted stripes including Anglicans (some of these being the result of western Christian contact with nominal Copts over the past two centuries, but also including a large number of Sudanese Anglican Christian refugees from the jihad in the Sudan) and about a quarter million Catholics (again, some being the result of western Christian contact with nominal Copts in the 19th and 20th centuries, resulting in Catholics of Coptic background one or more generations back, but *also* including Sudanese Catholic Christian refugees from the jihad in the Sudan). There was in 2001 a tiny presence of Greek Orthodox and Armenian Orthodox, numbering (at that time) about 20 000.

These groups account for nearly all the non-Copt Christians, barring some 88 000 who were summed up as 'other denominations' (these 'others' comprising 30 different groups, according to 'Operation World', though they don't list all the names; I would assume most were small offshoots of western Protestant groups), though some might also represent smaller Orthodox communities such as the Syriac Christians.

the early Christians believed in one true deity .....trinity was invented later....

"FORMER BROTHERHOOD MEMBER SPEAKS OUT:

EGYPT WILL BE ‘SEED’ OF ISLAMIC CALIPHATE THAT WILL EVENTUALLY ENCOMPASS ‘WORLD IN ITS ENTIRETY’"

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/former-brotherhood-member-speaks-out-egypt-will-be-seed-of-islamic-caliphate-that-will-eventually-encompass-world-in-its-entirety/

Infidel hunters of the Mosque are gaining power in Egypt and Libya; they are also fighting to get rid of the multi-culturist Assad. Blood will flow when the Infidel hunters from the Mosque chase Syrian Christians and Alawite out of Muhammad’s Democracy. The hunting season will continue until there are no more Infidels in the greater Middle-East.

"the essence of all heavenly religions is that Allah is one and there is no god but Him"

my religion is "heavenly", your is not so much, his religion is so and so ...
of course this depends upon how you define "heavenly" ...

This is a repetition of the problem of the so called "Christian roots" which someone wished to be mentioned in the preamble to the European Treaties, ... nothing against the roots of anyone, but as soon as you fill legal or administrative texts with references to "heaven", you do not exactly know who does what ...

what about selecting representatives of the Egyptian people based on that they should be born in Egypt (or have at least one relative of Egyptian citizenship) and have the consent of the voters ?
at least these conditions can be verified by third parties with a reasonable degree of certainty ...

my mistake, I meant one parent of Egyptian citizenship, which is a method in use in may esteemed countries ...

To muslim readers of Jihad watch (and to atheists): Christianity teaches the truth that God(Elohim) is ONE,but God is manifest in three persons; Father Son and Holy Spirit, a concept that is central to the bible from Genesis chapter 1 through Revalation. That God can exist simultaneously in 3 persons in complete unity is difficult to understand but God is omnipotent omnipresent and omniscent and for Him nothing is impossible. The word Elohim (Hebrew for God is plural of the noun El the singular). Think of the concept of a trinitarian GOD like that of water. Water can and does exist in 3 forms simultaneously solid liquid and vapor at 0 C. Hear O Israel the Lord our God, the Lord is one (echad)!Deuteronomy 6:4 The word echad, Hebrew for one allows for pleuralityas well.
Jesus affirmed the trinitarian concept of God in Matthew 28:19, "Go therefore into all the nations, batizing them in the name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit".

I should add that Christ is the fullfilment of the Old Testament and of Judaism, while Islam is "another gospel", a doctrine of demons according to St Paul.