Jihad genocide dreams from Egyptian professor: "By next year, Allah willing, Israel will be annihilated"

"By next year, Allah willing, Israel will be annihilated"

Well, as Allah does not exist, it'll be down to the Egyptian army versus the IDF. And we all know what happened the last time!! :)

Clown!

By next year, God willing, Islam will be annihilated.
It's no wonder the Islamic world is so backward. They think of NOTHING but Jihad.
They want to destroy Israel. But are they happy in Gaza? If Israel did not exist would they then flourish? Would all their backwardness be turned into economic and scientific progress? The destruction of Israel would only make the ME a worse place. If Muslims in ME are dissatisfied with their lot, how do they suppose that more land, "Palestine", would solve their problems? They would just have more of the same. More Shariah. More Imams. More backwardness.
How can so many people be so blind?

"We are constantly keeping the memory alive among the younger generations" ..Indoctrination. Abuse of young minds.
Well shame on you "professor"!

Time to post this one again, I think, by way of riposte to the hysterical ranting of that vile Mohammedthug.

Daniel Reich, singing in Jerusalem in 2008.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5sjqoYCm10

Same boy, same year, same place, different month

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQNOCeJIC8M&feature=endscreen

Chichester Psalms, 2nd Movement.

Juxtaposition of Psalm 23 and Psalm 2.

What he and the choir are singing.

Psalm 23: 1-4.
Adonai ro-i., lo ehsar
Bin’ot deshe yarbitseini,
Al mei m’nuhot y’nahaleini,
Naf’shi y’shovev
Yan’heini b’ma’aglei tsedek.
L’ma’an sh’mo.
Gam ki eilech
B’gei tsalmavet,
Lo ira ra,
Ki Atah imadi.
Shiv’t’cha umishan’techa
Hemah y’nahamuni.

Psalm 2: 1-4.
Lamah rag’shu goyim
Ul’umim yeh’gu rik?
Yit’yats’vu malchei erets,
V’roznim nos’du yahad
Al Adonai v’al m’shiho.
N’natkah et mos’roteimo,
V’nashlichah mimenu avoteimo.
Yoshev bashamayim
Yis’hak, Adonai
Yil’ag lamo!

Psalm 23: 5-6.
Ta’aroch l’fanai shulchan
Neged tsor’rai.
Dishanta vashemen roshi
Cosi r’vayah.
Ach tov vahesed
Yird’funi kol y’mei hayai,
V’shav’ti b’veit Adonai
L’orech yamim."

For the translation, just look up the verses in any Bible.

@traeh

"D in the quotation below cites Islamic authorities to justify Muhammad in his 50s having sex with a 9 year old girl. Notice that the authorities below say that even if the girl is under 9 there is nothing to forbid intercourse, provided the girl is "able."

What do you honestly believe that "able" means, biologically speaking a person is able for intercourse at puberty. Puberty can occur anytime between the age of 8-14. That's why the scholars also say:

"or to allow it in the case of a girl who is not able for it and has reached the age of nine."

Shafi himself states that marrige before puberty is not reccomended (even if consumation comes later):

"It should be noted that Shafa'i and his companions stated: It is mustahab (preferred) for fathers and grandfathers not marry off the virgin until she reaches puberty and they ask her consent, lest she end up in a marriage she dislikes."

Now as for whether Aisha reached puberty at the time of consumation, we know that Aisha reached pubert when she was still living with her parents so it's a given that she had reached puberty when the marrige was consumated. This hadith makes it perfectly clear:

"Narrated 'Aisha:(the wife of the Prophet) I had seen my parents following Islam since I attained the age of puberty. Not a day passed but the Prophet visited us, both in the mornings and evenings. My father Abii Bakr thought of building a mosque in the courtyard of his house and he did so. He used to pray and recite the Qur'an in it. The pagan women and their children used to stand by him and look at him with surprise. Abu Bakr was a Softhearted person and could not help weeping while reciting the Quran. The chiefs of the Quraish pagans became afraid of that (i.e. that their children and women might be affected by the recitation of Quran)."(Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 8, Number 465)

"Tabari says that she was so young that she stayed in her parents' home and the marriage was consummated there later when she had reached puberty." (Karen Armstrong - Muhammad: A Biography of the Prophet, Harper San Francisco, 1992 - Page 157)

Also:

'Aishah said: "The Messenger of Allah married me when I was six years old and he finished the wedding when I was 9 years old." Malik (Ibn Anas), Imam Abu Hanifa and Ash-Shafi'ie have said: The period before the perfection that they had until that time would be physically prepared for the community. "Al-Dawudi said:" And Aishah body had been really mature." (Sharh Sahih Muslim, Imam Nawawi - Source).

Another tough talking, annihilation of Israel, propagandist. ITS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN ! He goes on to say, that the issue is non debatable. However, what is most telling about what this Islamist has stated is that, he/they need to constantly remind or keep the "memory alive" among the younger generation. Well, if they need to do that, it means that the younger generation considers this issue less importent and other issues more inportant. Like, will they be able to support their families and will they have enough to eat.

The people of Egypt were duped into thinking that democracy has finally come and a better life is at hand, but instead, what they were handed, is yet another form of an oppressive government, having an agenda that does not include the economic well being of it's people.

Please don't allow yourself into being side tracked by exchanging comments with this intentional antagonist "D" Our efforts will be better served if we stick to the subject matter. Islamists, use religion in many ways, in this instance, it's a diversionary bait to debate tactic.

That's right D

Egypt, Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Pakistan, Lebonan, Hamas, Hezbollah etc

Israel can clean them all up.

Can this annoying troll, "D", please be banned? He/she is just a distraction and a fool.

"By next year, Allah willing, Israel will be annihilated"

By next year, God's willing, Allah will be placed in the Tel-Aviv ZOO

Don't feed the pedophile worshipper troll known as 'D', don't help him divert attention from the topics posted here.

Dear D (short for dolt, dumbass, daffy, dense, deranged, devilish, dimwitted, disgusting, dishonest, dopey and dull.) Are you an idiot? How is a verse from the old Testament not Judaism?

And in case you haven't noticed, your moronic belief system is the only one today that is killing family members. God brought a new covenant when the Lord Jesus Christ came, taught, went about doing good, was crucified, dead, buried, AND ROSE AGAIN. We don't follow Mosaic law anymore, bright-o.

Go soak your head. Try to marinate it so some sense seeps in.

This B.S. professor Gamal Zahran, is trying to invoke hatred in Egypts youth only because hatred is the key ingrediant needed to trigger an unwarrented war with Israel

Other than a generationally invoked hatred for the Jew, no one has yet to come up with a cogent reason, why Israel doesn't have the right to exist.

They'll tell you it's the land and where it's located, I say, it's hatred for the Jew.

Why ? and for what reason ? There isn't any !

"If you love me, you will keep my commandments." John 14:15

It is really getting bad,and the worst is 99% of Westerners don't know and don't care that our world is,like,well,coming to an end?Really,it is like before WW II but THEN people had far less telecommunications than now,What EXCUSE can our present generation give that they did NOT KNOW?

Here is an article about Iran's apostate ALI DASHTI:

"Ali Dashti,Apostate of Islam,Tortured by Khomeini,Author of a Famous Book against Muhammad"

http://www.antisharia.com/2011/12/17/ali-dashtiapostate-of-islamtortured-by-khomeiniauthor-of-a-famous-book-against-muhammad/

Corrections to typos:

I might add that these efforts are proving wildly successful. There is MUCH going on "behind the scenes" about which the average person - and especially the average musloid - has no idea.

And I am in a position to know.

Not that it should matter, but concerning one among the 1,001 distortions "D" promotes:

He claims -- "we know that Aisha reached pubert[y] when she was still living with her parents so it's a given that she had reached puberty when the marrige was consumated. This hadith makes it perfectly clear:"

Then he quotes the hadith that supposedly substantiates his claim:

"Narrated 'Aisha:(the wife of the Prophet) I had seen my parents following Islam since I attained the age of puberty. Not a day passed but the Prophet visited us, both in the mornings and evenings...

For D's claim to be substantiated, we'd need more of a syntactical/semantic connection between that first sentence and its following sentence. However, those two sentences are vulnerable to equivocation, and could easily mean the following:

"Aisha said: 'After Islam came, I saw my parents a couple of times since I attained puberty. When I was living with them prior to that, the Prophet always visited us, morning and night...'"

The "had" -- I had seen my parents -- particularly lends itself to this clarified reading.

For D's reading to be more unambiguously arguable, it would have to go something like this:

"Narrated 'Aisha:(the wife of the Prophet) Following Islam, after I attained the age of puberty, I lived with my parents. That was the time when the Prophet would visit us. Not a day passed but the Prophet visited us, both in the mornings and evenings...

P.S.: The orthographical sloppiness of that hadith quote, typical of Oriental writings, does not bode well for a proper transmission and/or translation to have taken place. Notice that the colon is misplaced -- it should follow the parenthetical "(the wife of the Prophet)" -- and then notice the failure to supply the beginning single quote-mark (') to the start of what Aisha is supposed to be quoted as narrating -- viz., right before Following...

For some reason the "less than" and "greater than" symbols won't print.

According to much of Islam a girl reaches puberty - or rather, is considered a grownup - when she has her first menstruation. No matter what her age it's okay to marry her and have sex with her. This at least is a refreshing bluntness instead of the convoluted and meandering interpretations of hadith being combined to show that Aisha was much older than the clearly stated six and nine respectively.

I would like to see the different meanings af the Arab word "puberty" that Muslim and apologist sites like to bandy around from this hadith.

It's quite obvious D doesn't think any of us have read the koran or any of the other teachings that compose mohammedism. He thinks we don't see them placing the koran (words printed on paper) on the level of god, else why would they kill people for "mishandling" it. Sounds like idolatry to me. I also don't seem to recall any recent incidences of Bible burners being executed. And although he presumes to think he knows all about the Bible and Christianity, he still hasn't explained why honor killings, holding slaves, mutilation of criminals and the subjugation of women are no longer practiced in western society.

He thinks we don't see his belief that if he is tempted sexually, it is the fault of the other person, therefore, women must cover themselves. He complains about western women not dressing modestly and the loose morals of the west, although the most ungodly sexual behavior has been modeled by his prophet, such as killing a Jew and immediately taking his widow as a "wife", consumating the "marriage" before the blood has even clotted.

Perhaps he believes we can't perceive how actions considered perversions by normal people have been turned into "holy" things by his hallucinating prophet. Such as having sex with children (in some cases, thighing INFANTS!), holding sex slaves, multiple wives, and regarding women and unbelievers as having half the value, or less, of a mahoundian.

The vanity and pride that mahoundians have, thinking they are the best of people, is shockingly sinful. And yet, that is what mohammedans are taught. I truly weep for all that have been imprisoned by this horrible cult.

To answer the Islamic Egyptian professor The State of Israel would or could very be annihilated if he or some other Muslims wil also change the laws of artorphysics. Including that ofthe sun, the moon and the stars. For God has declared in His Word, the Bible , in Jeremiah 31:35,36. "Thus saith the Lord, which givth the sun for a light by day and the ordiances of the moon and the stars for a light by night...The Lord of the host is His mane. If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me forever." [KJV]

"Egypt’s Mursi using jihadists to mediate with radical Islamists in Sinai"

http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2012/08/29/234839.html?

The distinction (if any) between 'jihadists', and 'radical Islamists' is not explained; but we get the message.

Re the Mohammedan dementors, and many denizens of dar al Islam.

It is not just that they lie. A liar must be aware of what is true, in order to lie.

They BS. And one who does BS simply does not *care* about the truth, as such. Truths and half-truths, suitably framed, will on occasion suit him just as well as lies...though he will end up lying, a lot of the time.

See here, for some discussion of 'Bullshit' (technical term).

http://press.princeton.edu/titles/7929.html

It sounds like it should probably be required reading - together with Raymond Ibrahim's series of lapidary articles on Mohammedan methods and theories of deception - for anybody who has to deal with Mohammedans.

And Harry Frankfurt's argument that *our* culture has of late been infected with the habit of BS, may explain why we have become so vulnerable to the inroads made by the Mohammedans...who are much, much better at BS, having had centuries of practice at it (along with centuries of carefully-honed practice in every species of Lying), than either Jews or persons raised within societies shaped by Christianity. There's plenty of BS in our societies today but we're still amateurs; and lots of us still operate using the old Truth vs Falsehood paradigm, and find it difficult to recognise that there are people who will say, well, *anything* in order to manipulate others.

It is perfectly possible that 'D' knows and approves of the traditional Muslim narrative re. Mohammed and Aisha; and knows and approves of the sharia laws re. the wedding and bedding of prepubescent girls; and that he simply doesn't give a damn, he will *pretend* not to know, in order to mess with people's heads; in order to distract and confuse.

His appearance in this thread and his yanking of it wildly offtopic, is very instructive. It's clear he doesn't want us to spend much time thinking about the posted article and video.

I advise everybody here, and everybody who may google their way in here from this day forward, to take a break from the Comments and scroll right back up to the top. Read the transcript and **watch the video clip**.

Then, if you have the means, and you *really* want to stick it to the Mohammedan dementor and the other Jew-haters of the Mohammedan Mob...pop a donation in MEMRI's tip jar.

Bottom line: D does not deny that Muhammad had sex with Aisha when she was 9 years old and he was in his 50s. D is okay with that. He offers all kinds of excuses and obfuscation, but that's the bottom line.

In fact, Aisha was 9 lunar years old, and since a lunar year is about 355 days, Aisha may have been as young as 8 years and 9 months old (in 365-day-years) when Muhammad had sex with her.

But D has also said he's okay with a man having sex with an 8-year old girl too, so long as she's reached "puberty" -- as Muslim obfuscators expediently define "puberty."

On page 222 (326 in the Arabic) of the earliest Muslim biography of Muhammad, Muhammad agrees with Abu jahl that those who do not follow Muhammad will be "slaughtered":

Abu jahl said to them: "Muhammad alleges that if you follow him you will be kings of the Arabs and the Persians. Then after death you will be raised to gardens like those of the Jordan. But if you do not follow him you will be slaughtered, and when you are raised from the dead you will be burned in the fire of hell." The apostle [Muhammad] came out to them with a handful of dust saying: "I do say that."

In a core Islamic text, Muhammad says there is to be no punishment for murdering someone who insults him

From Sunan Abu-Dawud, a canonical hadith collection:
Book 38, Number 4348:

Narrated Abdullah Ibn Abbas:

A blind man had a slave-mother [a slave who bore children for him] who used to abuse the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and disparage him. He [the blind man] forbade her but she did not stop. He rebuked her but she did not give up her habit. One night she began to slander the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and abuse him. So he [the blind man] took a dagger, placed it on her belly, pressed it, and killed her. A child who came between her legs was smeared with the blood that was there. When the morning came, the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) was informed about it.

He assembled the people and said: I adjure by Allah the man who has done this action and I adjure him by my right to him that he should stand up. Jumping over the necks of the people and trembling the man stood up.

He sat before the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and said: Apostle of Allah! I am her master; she used to abuse you and disparage you. I forbade her, but she did not stop, and I rebuked her, but she did not abandon her habit. I have two sons like pearls from her, and she was my companion. Last night she began to abuse and disparage you. So I took a dagger, put it on her belly and pressed it till I killed her.

Thereupon the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Oh be witness, no retaliation is payable for her blood.

Another canonical hadith:

Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 38, Number 4349:

Narrated Ali ibn AbuTalib:

A Jewess used to abuse the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and disparage him. A man strangled her till she died. The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) declared that no recompense was payable for her blood.

-- QuotingIslam.blogspot.com

He probably hates his mother as well.

You Said:

"Bottom line: D does not deny that Muhammad had sex with Aisha when she was 9 years old and he was in his 50s. D is okay with that. He offers all kinds of excuses and obfuscation, but that's the bottom line."

Reply:

Yes because Muhammed lived in 570 CE not 2012. In fact an early age marrige was quite common at that time not only in Arabia but also in the Roman and Greek Byzantine empire, and seeing as Robert Spencer is of Greek origin maybe he can tel you more about the marrige between Emperor Andronicus I (who was 65) and princess Anna who was 11 years old at the time.

He married Aisha because Allah ordered him to do so in his dreams, just like the prophet Abrahem was willing to sacrifice his son due to God's order in his dream. Here is the hadith:

Sahih Bukhari 9.140
Narrated 'Aisha:

Allah's Apostle said to me, "You were shown to me twice (in my dream) before I married you. I saw an angel carrying you in a silken piece of cloth, and I said to him, 'Uncover (her),' and behold, it was you. I said (to myself), 'If this is from Allah, then it must happen.

Marrying someone at that age was perfectly acceptable at that time as no criticism the prophet neither by his followers nor enemies are found today. The prophet was called a liar, insane, a magician etc but a pedophile was not one of them. Furthermore one of the companions suggested Aisha to the prophet as seen in this hadith:

"Narrated Aisha: When Khadijah died, Khawlah Bin Hakiem came and said," Why not marry you, O Messenger of Allah? "He said," Who? "She said:" There are virgins and there are already married. "He asked," Who's The virgin? "She said:" The daughter of your most beloved friend - Aisha, the daughter of Abu Bakr. "He asked:" Who is the previously married? "She said:" Sawda bint Zama, they believed in you and You followed. The Prophet said, "Just do not you come to them and bring them know (I will marry)." (Zawaa'id, 9/228 - Declared Hasan By Sheikh Haythami - Source).

The common law, from which America gets much of its precedents in the legal field, set the age of consent at age ten. In other words, participating in sexual activity with someone above the age of ten did not result in the crime of "statutory" rape or child molesting. The activity may have come under other statutory or informal social regulations, but anyone over the age of ten could consent to a sexual activity.

In California over 100 years back, you could marry above the age of 7:"If the infants were under seven years of age the marriage was absolutely void, but parties over seven years of age and under the age of consent, could enter into a voidable marriage." (Source).

It soon raised to ten:"Originally, in California, the age of consent was ten." (Lawrence Meir Friedman - Total Justice - Russell Sage Foundation, 1985 - Page 139).

What about New York? We read:"New York, too, started out with the common-law age (ten)." (Ibid).

You Said:

"In fact, Aisha was 9 lunar years old, and since a lunar year is about 355 days, Aisha may have been as young as 8 years and 9 months old (in 365-day-years) when Muhammad had sex with her."

Reply:

The difference is 10 days between a lunar year and a solar year. By the way I know you've been on WikiIslam. But anyway Aisha does not give her her age in months let alone weeks/days. For all we know she could have been 9 years and 11 months old (in solar years).

You Said:

"But D has also said he's okay with a man having sex with an 8-year old girl too, so long as she's reached "puberty" -- as Muslim obfuscators expediently define "puberty."

Reply:

Like I said puberty can occur anytime between the age of 8-14, it can start earlier in hotter regions. Don't take my word for it, take a look at the UK's NHS website:

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Puberty/Pages/Complications.aspx

You're a pig. Don't you realize that, to civilized human beings, you are defending the indefensible?

Just one more reason why islam will perish. Four-fifths of the world is just not buying your sicko crap, and never will. The primitives (mohammedans) may be happy in their zoo countries but to us they're just flinging $hit at the walls of their cages. That's how we view you. You're a laughingstock.

Which is it, D? Do you say it is still okay nowadays to marry a 9 year old girl if she has reached what Islamic law calls "puberty"? Or do you say it was only okay in Muhammad's time?

You Said:

Which is it, D? Do you say it is still okay nowadays to marry a 9 year old girl if she has reached what Islamic law calls "puberty"? Or do you say it was only okay in Muhammad's time?

Reply:

I would find it extremely weird if someone married a 9 year old today, because it isn't seen as "the norm" within my own culture. Whether that would count as pedophilia is very debatable remember pedophilia is a psychological issue whereby a person has sexual fantasies or urges involving children. Biologically speaking a child will transform into an adult ones they reach puberty. Socially speaking however a child will not be considered an adult until they reach a certain age depending on the country (14, 16, 18, 21 etc).

Medically speaking this is the definition of pedophilia:

pedophilia /pe·do·phil·ia/ (-fil´e-ah) a paraphilia in which an adult has recurrent, intense sexual urges or sexually arousing fantasies of engaging or repeatedly engages in sexual activity with a prepubertal child.pedophil´ic

Using the medical definition the prophet would NOT be considered a pedophile

Using our 2012 (present day) legal and social definition he would be considered a "pedophile".

Using the 570 CE Arabia social definition he would also NOT be considered a pedophile.

Anyhow according to one of Islam's most respected scholars and the founder of the Shafi mathab (school of thought):

"It should be noted that Shafa'i and his companions stated: It is mustahab (preferred) for fathers and grandfathers not marry off the virgin until she reaches puberty and they ask her consent, lest she end up in a marriage she dislikes."

I'm revisiting this thread after 24 hours, and I'm scrolling down to see what's transpired since I last posted, and I see:

Author Profile Page dumbledoresarmy | August 29, 2012 12:10 AM | Reply

Re the Mohammedan dementors, and many denizens of dar al Islam.

It is not just that they lie. A liar must be aware of what is true, in order to lie.

-- followed by:

Author Profile Page thomas_h replied to comment from LemonLime | August 29, 2012 1:49 AM | Reply

I don't see a point discussing such matters as morality, logics, or truth with muhammedans because their soul and intellect have been hideously disfigured by centuries of practice of a faith established by a mad sexual pervert and sadistic murderer. A monstrous pig.

-- followed by:

Author Profile Page traeh replied to comment from thomas_h | August 29, 2012 2:00 AM | Reply

thomas_h,

I agree. I respond to fanatics like D not because I expect to convince them, but because I hope to persuade others who may visit the comments area and not have much familiarity with Islam's texts and teachings.

-- then I see:

Author Profile Page D replied to comment from LemonLime | August 29, 2012 4:09 AM | Reply

You Said:
...

-- to which I say, provisionally for now:

"Speak of the Devil...." :)

D, you didn't answer my question:

I didn't ask you about the what you allege is the "norm" in "your" community.

I asked do you think it is still okay nowadays for a Muslim to marry a 9 year old girl if she has reached what Islamic law calls "puberty"? Or do you say it was only okay in Muhammad's time?

I see that "D" still hasn't addressed the problem of the locution in Aisha's words "I had seen my parents following Islam..." One simply doesn't say "I had seen my parents at that time" when one means "I was living with my parents at that time". Unless D can bring at least two reputable Arabic translators to examine what word is being translated as "had seen" -- and one of those two Arabic translators has to be verified as non-Muslim non-dhimmi -- and show that another word is to be preferred which would bring the locution more in line with the alleged meaning of "living with", the problem remains unaddressed.

Notice also that in his scrupulous attention to detail in trying to refute us, he totally ignored the Bukhari hadiths I brought showing that Mohammed had Aisha clean his sperm stains off his garments. Come, come! Quite unbecoming for a supposed "Prophet" of God!

You Said:

"I didn't ask you about the what you allege is the "norm" in "your" community.

I asked do you think it is still okay nowadays for a Muslim to marry a 9 year old girl if she has reached what Islamic law calls "puberty"? Or do you say it was only okay in Muhammad's time?"

Reply:

Whether or not I agree with someone marrying a 9 year old today in 2012 is all down to the norm in my own culture and society. However I am not going to judge someone for something they did over a thousand years ago "using my own relative present day culture". That's all I can give you, if you want more information read my previous post again.

From http://www.islamawareness.net/Marriage/Child/cm_fatwa_001.html, I quote a most revealing statement about Islamic scholars:

Scholars have discussed at length the marriage of a young girl who has not attained puberty and whether her father may marry her away without her permission. If such a marriage takes place it is valid. However, it is perhaps best if the marriage is not allowed to be consummated until the girl attains puberty, when she is given the choice whether to continue with this marriage or not.

The scholars say that prepubescent marriage is legally valid. The scholars also say that it is "perhaps" -- perhaps! -- best if the marriage is not consummated until the girl reaches puberty. I've no doubt that refusal to outlaw consummating marriage between adult men and prepubescent girls is because of Qur'an 65:4 and the canonical ahadith I have cited in other comments.

The upshot of the Islamic scholars' discussion is that it is not forbidden to consummate marriage with a prepubescent girl, but it is only "perhaps" recommended to wait till she reaches puberty. Once she reaches puberty, she can be given the choice of rejecting the marriage. So, as usual, Islam mixes monstrous barbarities and perversities with the occasional benignity, as poison may be mixed with a bit of sugar.

An Iranian NGO, the Society For Protecting The Rights of The Child, said 43,459 girls aged under 15 had married in 2009, compared with 33,383 three years previously. In 2010, 716 girls younger than 10 had wed, up from 449 the previous year, according to the organisation.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iran/9500484/Alarm-as-hundreds-of-children-under-age-of-10-married-in-Iran.html

D said,

Whether or not I agree with someone marrying a 9 year old today in 2012 is all down to the norm in my own culture and society. However I am not going to judge someone for something they did over a thousand years ago "using my own relative present day culture".

You say "whether or not I agree." That sounds evasive.

Are you saying there is no right or wrong on the issue, and that right and wrong on this question are totally relative to the "norms" in whatever culture you are in?

Or are you saying that the 50+ year old Muhammad's example in consummating marriage with 9-year-old Aisha is no longer the right example to follow today in the Muslim world?

When nowadays a 50-year-old male Muslim consummates marriage with a 9 year old girl Muslim who has reached "puberty" as defined by Islamic law, would you condemn that consummation of marriage?

You Said:

The scholars say that prepubescent marriage is legally valid. The scholars also say that it is "perhaps" -- perhaps! -- best if the marriage is not consummated until the girl reaches puberty. I've no doubt that refusal to outlaw consummating marriage between adult men and prepubescent girls is because of Qur'an 65:4 and the canonical ahadith I have cited in other comments.

Agreed prepubescent marriage is islamically valid but it is NOT recommended as 3 of the greatest scholars have states. Now as for consummating the marriage with a prepubescent that is haram, banned as states by the Imam Dawudi, Abu Hanifa, Shafi and Maliki. There is no single hadith or verse in the Quran that says you may consummate your marriage with a prepubescent. As for the link that you have sited it doesn't work. Please post it again.

For those who need a summary, here's a three part group of short pieces that cite core Islamic texts with reference links leading to a university website:

Canonical hadiths say Muhammad (in his fifties) consummated his marriage to Aisha when she was nine (lunar) years old

Had Aisha reached puberty at age 9 when Muhammad, in his fifties, consummated the marriage with her? No...

Top Islamic scholars' explanations of Qur'an 65:4 show that the verse assumes consummation of marriage with prepubescent girls

D, if you are going to quote me, put quotations showing the beginning and end of my statements -- do not let my statement run on into your own, thereby confusing people.

D, I think consummation of marriage with prepubescent girls is not considered haram by most Islamic scholars. I have cited, with reference links, some of the greatest Islamic scholarly authorities referring to consummation of marriage with prepubescent girls, while those scholars make no condemnation of the practice. I cited Ibn Kathir, widely acknowledged among Muslims as writer of perhaps the greatest explanation ever of the Qur'an. I cited Ibn Abbas, Muhammad's companion. I cited Wahidi, and Maududi. In each case I provided links to independent sources, so you could verify my quotes. You, meanwhile, claim consummation of marriage with prepubescent girls is haram, but provide no links to the authorities you claim to quote.

Let's start with Maliki. Please, quote briefly where Maliki says consummation with prepubescent girls is haram. Give us reference links, page numbers, a way to check any quotation.

Below I quote a revealing excerpt from a webpage at the "Islam Awareness" website.

http://www.islamawareness.net/Marriage/Child/cm_fatwa_001.html

Question. I have a nine year-old girl who is married to a person at the age of 20. The marriage contract was made a year ago but the girl is refusing to live with her husband or even to look at him. In addition to that she requires him to divorce her. Could you please advise me what to do? Should I separate them or force my daughter to live with him?

(Name and address withheld)

Answer: (...) Scholars have discussed at length the marriage of a young girl who has not attained puberty and whether her father may marry her away without her permission. If such a marriage takes place it is valid. However, it is perhaps best if the marriage is not allowed to be consummated until the girl attains puberty, when she is given the choice whether to continue with this marriage or not...

"Perhaps" best! In other words, it is not forbidden, it is merely "perhaps" recommended to wait until puberty for consummation.

D, you said,

yet Surah 65:4 states there is an iddah [waiting period before remarriage] for the pre pubescent if the divorce is before consummation

Qur'an 65:4 does not mention anything about "before" or "after" or "consummation."

Do you even read what you write? Go back and study your own Qur'an.

Here is Qur'an 65:4:

Now as for such of your women as are beyond, the age of monthly courses, as well as for such as do not have any courses [do not yet have menstrual cycles], their waiting-period - if you have any doubt [about it] - shall be three [calendar] months; and as for those who are with child, the end of their waiting-term shall come when they deliver their burden. And for everyone who is conscious of God, He makes it easy to obey His commandment:

You Said:

"D, I think consummation of marriage with prepubescent girls is not considered haram by most Islamic scholars. I have cited, with reference links, some of the greatest Islamic scholarly authorities referring to consummation of marriage with prepubescent girls, while those scholars make no condemnation of the practice. I cited Ibn Kathir, widely acknowledged among Muslims as writer of perhaps the greatest explanation ever of the Qur'an. I cited Ibn Abbas, Muhammad's companion. I cited Wahidi, and Maududi. In each case I provided links to independent sources, so you could verify my quotes. You, meanwhile, claim consummation of marriage with prepubescent girls is haram, but provide no links to the authorities you claim to quote.

Let's start with Maliki. Please, quote briefly where Maliki says consummation with prepubescent girls is haram. Give us reference links, page numbers, a way to check any quotation."

Reply:

Read this post again, this time very carefully it tells you exactly what the major scholars believe. As for your latest post the website in that link is unknown, whoever made it is doubtful to have more authority than Shafi, Maliki ,Abu Hanifa, and Dawudi all who said that the marriage should only be allowed to be consummated after one is "physically able" and Ibni Kathir who sais specifically the age of marriage is after puberty in his tafsir for surah 4:6

Surah Nisa 4:6:

"Make trial of orphans until they reach the age of marriage; if then ye find sound judgment in them, release their property to them; but consume it not wastefully, nor in haste against their growing up. If the guardian is well-off, Let him claim no remuneration, but if he is poor, let him have for himself what is just and reasonable. When ye release their property to them, take witnesses in their presence: But all-sufficient is God in taking account."

From this verse, we can see that there is an age limit of marriage in Islam. The Arabic word used in this verse is "alnnikaha," (*) which some translators have translated as "puberty."

Surah Nisa 4:6: Shakir:

"And test the orphans until they attain puberty; then if you find in them maturity of intellect, make over to them their property, and do not consume it extravagantly and hastily, lest they attain to full age; and whoever is rich, let him abstain altogether, and whoever is poor, let him eat reasonably; then when you make over to them their property, call witnesses in their presence; and Allah is enough as a Reckoner."

Surah Nisa 4:6: Khalifah:

"You shall test the orphans when they reach puberty. As soon as you find them mature enough, give them their property. Do not consume it extravagantly in a hurry, before they grow up. The rich guardian shall not charge any wage, but the poor guardian may charge equitably. When you give them their properties, you shall have witnesses. GOD suffices as Reckoner."

Tafsirs of this verse inform us:

Ibn Kathir's tafsir - Surah Nisa 4:6:
"(until they reach the age of marriage), the age of puberty, according to Mujahid."

Jalalayn's tafsir - Surah Nisa 4:6:
"...until they reach the age of marrying, that is, until they have become eligible for it through puberty or [legal] age..."

Ibn Abbas' tafsir - Surah Nisa 4:6:
"(Prove orphans) test the intelligence of orphans (till they reach the marriageable age) the age of puberty..."

Dr F Ajmeri - Dawat-Ul Quran - Volume 1 - Page 241:
"To reach the age of marriage means to be adolescent. According to Shariah, it is fixed on the manifestation of the natural growth of the human parts of the body. It means that according to Quran the age for marriage of a boy or a girl is on his or her reaching the age of adolescence."

Maulana Muhammad Taqi Usmani - Ma'ariful Quran - Volume 2 - Page 323:
"Along with the injunction of maturity (bulugh) in this verse, the Holy Qur'an has also answered the question as to the 'age' when a child would be taken as mature (baligh) by saying: اذا بلغوا النكاح translated as 'until they reach marriageability'. Here, it has been indicated that real maturity is not tied up with any particular count of years. Rather, it depends on particular indicators and signs experiences by adults entering the threshold of adulthood. When, in terms of these indicators and signs, they would be regarded to marry, they would be considered mature, even if their age does not exceed thirteen or fourteen years."

Sayyid Qutb - In The Shade Of The Qur'an - The Islamic Foundation - Volume 3 - Page 35:
"The test, therefore, to make sure that the orphan has reached the age of puberty, which is referred to in the Qur'anic text by the term "marriage", is the function that can be fulfilled only after the attainment of puberty."

Moreover, Imam Qurtubi stated that marriage is at puberty (Qurtubi's tafsir - Surah 4:6 - Source). Zamakhshari stated a similar thing in his tafsir of Surah 4:6 (Source) and so did Tabarsi (Source).

"According to Shariah, engagements and marriage can be done as soon as they reach maturity and puberty." (Sheikh Abdur Raheem Abu Nauman - Source).

We also read in the following verse that marriage is a strong promise/covenant according to:

Surah Nisa 4:21:

"And how could ye take it when ye have gone in unto each other, and they have Taken from you a solemn covenant?"

From these 2 verses in combination, we understand that marriage is a agreement between men and women at the age of maturity where they can make good judgments. When a person reaches puberty, he/she can decide to get married if he/she wants to. If you marry someone before puberty, the marriage is NOT complete till both reach puberty. You cannot have intercourse with the person you marry, till the marriage is completed (which is at puberty). No-one can force you to marry, or stay married. We see that there is no specific limit to when a person can complete the marriage, because puberty can start earlier for some people and late for others. Interestingly, in the USA 100+ years ago, people could participate in sexual activity, at the age of 10.

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 8, Number 465:

"Narrated 'Aisha:(the wife of the Prophet) I had seen my parents following Islam since I attained the age of puberty. Not a day passed but the Prophet visited us, both in the mornings and evenings. My father Abii Bakr thought of building a mosque in the courtyard of his house and he did so. He used to pray and recite the Qur'an in it. The pagan women and their children used to stand by him and look at him with surprise. Abu Bakr was a Softhearted person and could not help weeping while reciting the Quran. The chiefs of the Quraish pagans became afraid of that (i.e. that their children and women might be affected by the recitation of Quran)."

Notice the above narration states Aisha had reached puberty while she was still living with her parents. So, before Aisha moved in with the Prophet and before the marriage consummation occurred, she had reached puberty.

D said,

Whether or not I agree with someone marrying a 9 year old today in 2012 is all down to the norm in my own culture and society. However I am not going to judge someone for something they did over a thousand years ago "using my own relative present day culture".

You say "whether or not I agree." That sounds evasive.

Are you saying there is no right or wrong on the issue, and that right and wrong on this question are totally relative to the "norms" in whatever culture you are in?

Or are you saying that the 50+ year old Muhammad's example in consummating marriage with 9-year-old Aisha is no longer the right example to follow today in the Muslim world?

When nowadays a 50-year-old male Muslim consummates marriage with a 9 year old girl Muslim who has reached "puberty" as defined by Islamic law, would you condemn that consummation of marriage?

Also read this again:

"D, present your casuistry to the famous mainstream Islamic authorities who disagree with you. Present it to Ibn Kathir, Islam's most respected interpreter of the Qur'an, and to Muhammad's companion, Ibn Abbas. Tell it to Maududi.

Maududi put it this way:"

In Islam there are 4 main schools of thoughts known as mathabs. These schools of thoughts are: Hanafi, Shafi, Maliki and Habai. I suggest you read this again:

Malik, al-Shafa'i and Abu Hanifa said: the marriage may be consummated when the girl is able for intercourse, which varies from one girl to another, so no age limit can be set. This is the correct view. There is nothing in the hadith of Aisha to set an age limit, or to forbid that in the case of a girl who is able for it before the age of nine, or to allow it in the case of a girl who is not able for it and has reached the age of nine. Al-Dawudi said: Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) reached physical maturity (at the time when her marriage was consummated)." (Imam Nawawi's: Sharh Sahih Muslim - Book Of Marriage - Source).

These are the top scholars in Islam, the leaders of the mathabs, they have more knowledge than any of the scholars that you've mentioned. the Imam malik was born less than a century after the death of the prophet Muhammed, his grandfather knew the prophet personally. I site you the 4 great scholars and you site me Abul Ala Maududi??? A scholar that was born in 1907, at the time MY OWN grandfather was born?? Are you having a laugh???

As for Ibn Kathir it's pretty clear what he thinks marrigible age should be:

Ibn Kathir's tafsir - Surah Nisa 4:6:
"(until they reach the age of marriage), the age of puberty, according to Mujahid."

Here is Ibn Abbas's tafsir:

Ibn Abbas' tafsir - Surah Nisa 4:6:
"(Prove orphans) test the intelligence of orphans (till they reach the marriageable age) the age of puberty..."

I don't really care what Maududi, believes when all the major scholars in Islam agree that marrige should be after puberty and consumation should most deffinatly occur after a girl or boy attains puberty.

"D, instead of trying to sell your delusions to gullible non-Muslims, why don't you present your sophistry to the 9-year old girls who find themselves married off to middle-aged men in, say, Yemen? Why don't you tell the jurists in Yemen who make it permissible to marry 9-year olds"

Then you go on to sell me some bullshit about the laws in Yemen. Yemen is A DICTATORSHIP ran by a bloodthirsty murderer called Ali Abdullah Saleh who orders his troops to shoot at peacefull protesters, his parliment is dominated by a party that stands for everything that contradicts the shariah, he is the puppet of the United States and sho is his Vice president Mansour Hadi who he haded power to not too long ago. If the prophet was alive today or any of his companians he would have sentenced the ENTIRE YEMENESE GOVERMENT TO DEATH BY STONING! Take it to the bank!

As for me reccomending an early age marrige why should I do this??? I don't live in 570 CE Arabia nor have any of my parents married at that age. It's not part of my culture, just like I drive a car instead of ride a camel. I also wouldn't marry a 40 year old when I'm in my 20's. Was I ordered by Allah to do so. In imam Shafi believes that marrying prebuscent child before she reaches puberty (even if the marrige isn't consumated) is not reccomended. Muhammad's marrige to Aisha was an exception because Allah ordered the prophet to marry her.

Some scholars even stated it's not recommended to marry before pubescent, unless there is an Islamically valid reason or valid opportunity:

"It should be noted that Shafa'i and his companions stated: It is mustahab (preferred) for fathers and grandfathers not to marry off the virgin until she reaches puberty and they ask her consent, lest she end up in a marriage she dislikes. What they said doesn't contradict the hadith of Aisha, since what they meant is that they shouldn't marry her off before she reaches puberty if there's no obvious interest to, that they fear will be missed out on if they delay it, as given in the hadith of Aisha. In that case, it's recommended to marry because the father is commanded to take care of his child's interests and not missing out."

وَاعْلَمْ أَنَّ الشَّافِعِيَّ وَأَصْحَابَهُ قَالُوا : وَيُسْتَحَبُّ أنْ لَا يُزَوِّجَ الْأَبُ وَالْجَدُّ الْبِكْرَ حَتَّى تَبْلُغَ ، وَيَسْتَأْذِنُهَا لِئَلَّا يُوقِعَهَا فِي أَسْرِ الزَّوْجِ وَهِيَ كَارِهَةٌ ، وَهَذَا الَّذِي قَالُوهُ لَا يُخَالِفُ حَدِيثَ عَائِشَةَلِأَنَّ ؛ لِأَنَّ مُرَادَهُمْ أَنَّهُ لَا يُزَوِّجُهَا قَبْلَ الْبُلُوغِ إِذَا لَمْ تَكُنْ مَصْلَحَةٌ ظَاهِرَةٌ يَخَافُ فَوْتَهَا بِالتَّأْخِيرِ كَحَدِيثِ عَائِشَةَ ، فَيُسْتَحَبُّ تَحْصِيلُ ذَلِكَ الزَّوْجِلِأَنَّ ؛ لِأَنَّ الْأَبَ مَأْمُورٌ بِمَصْلَحَةِ وَلَدِهِ فَلَا يُفَوِّتُهَا . وَاللَّهُ أَعْلَمُ

http://hadith.al-islam.com/Page.aspx?pageid=192&BookID=34&TOCID=623

Thankyou for asking me about my religion

D, you said,

...consummation does not have to occur for an iddah to take place

Qur'an 33:49 says no iddah [waiting period before remarriage] is necessary if the marriage has not been consummated.

You are trying to slip out of the clear meaning of Qur'an 65:4 and Qur'an 33:49 when they are read together with each other. They mean that Qur'an says consummation with prepubescent girls is permissible. You choose to ignore the clear statements of Ibn Kathir, Ibn Abbas, Jalalayn, Maududi, and others:

Top Islamic scholars' explanations of Qur'an 65:4 show that the verse assumes consummation of marriage with prepubescent girls

But lets leave aside the question about prepubescence. You have so far evaded the three simple questions I have now posted to you twice before. In those questions I say nothing about prepubescence. I will post them again, and I will assume for the sake of argument that Aisha at age 9 had reached "puberty" as Islamic law defines it. Please answer with simple yes or no the questions in my next comment, if you have the courage.

Ok, D, I leave out any claim of prepubescence in the following questions I ask you. Kindly answer each of the three questions with a yes or no, if you have the courage.

D said,

Whether or not I agree with someone marrying a 9 year old today in 2012 is all down to the norm in my own culture and society. However I am not going to judge someone for something they did over a thousand years ago "using my own relative present day culture".

1) Are you saying there is no right or wrong on the issue, and that right and wrong on this question are totally relative to the "norms" in whatever culture you are in? Is that what you are saying? Yes or no.

2) Or are you saying that the 50+ year old Muhammad's example in consummating marriage with 9-year-old Aisha is no longer the right example to follow today in the Muslim world? Assume 9-year-old Aisha had reached "puberty" according to Islamic law's definition. Is Muhammad's example in consummating with her no longer the right example today? Yes or no.

3) When nowadays a 50-year-old male Muslim consummates marriage with a 9 year old girl Muslim who has reached "puberty" as defined by Islamic law, would you condemn that consummation of marriage? Yes or no.

I see that "D" keeps prevaricating between two positions concerning the 1.8.465 Bukhari hadith:

1) First, that this hadith proves that Aisha was already past puberty when she was still living with her parents (which, ipso facto, would be the time before Mohammed married her (age 6) or at least before the time he consummated their marriage (age 9) -- this thus supposedly proving that she was past puberty by the time Mohammed had sex with her.

2) But, when I point out that the hadith does not prove that Aisha was living with her parents, because nowhere in there does it say so -- only using the locution of Aisha's words "I had seen my parents following Islam since I attained the age of puberty -- then D abruptly changes his tack and claims it doesn't matter whether she was living with her parents or not: e.g., "It's not about her being with them or living with them." (cf. his last comment to me above) -- even though, as I pointed out to him already above, his first description of this hadith to the JW commenter "traeh" precisely, in his own words, described it in terms of Aisha "living with her parents", patently using this as proof of her "post-pubertal" status by the time Mohammed would have consummated his marriage to her. As he wrote to traeh:

Notice the above narration states Aisha had reached puberty while she was still living with her parents. So, before Aisha moved in with the Prophet and before the marriage consummation occurred, she had reached puberty.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/08/egyptian-muslim-brotherhood-cleric-the-day-will-come-when-we-will-be-masters-of-the-world.html#comment-899592

Now D is affecting to claim it doesn't matter if Aisha was living with her parents.

D can't have it both ways. Oh wait, he's a Muslim; so I guess he can.

Just a musing, parenthetical thought: I find it interesting -- but no doubt a mere coincidence -- that immediately consequent upon my typing, in a comment somewhere above, with reference to the reappearance of the Muslim commenter "D", the words "Speak of the Devil...." that same Muslim commenter quoted those very words of mine, then invited me to say the shahada and to convert to Islam.

Almost as though, by typing that, I had triggered the appropriate incantation.

LemonLime,
I meant to say, "I'm now curious about that comment though, because of your above incantation remark..."

By the way, D is as silent now as the desert at night.

A few days ago, long-time JW reader CGW thought D had cut and run:

"D" turned tail and ran. Typical musloid coward.

D then anxiously announced this thread here, in which he resumed to try to spin his cobweb of deceit:

"My reply can be found here: http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/08/jihad-genocide-dreams-from-egyptian-professor-by-next-year-allah-willing-israel-will-be-annihilated.html"

CGW was right -- just a couple of days off is all.

I have innumerable archives relating to Islam in my Bookmarks gathering dust, among them countless JW articles and comments threads; I rarely revisit them. But over the past couple of years I've had occasion to -- or sometimes while Googling I stumble on an old JW comments thread. It seems like JW Comments is a road literally littered with the bones of Islam apologists, all superficially different from each other, but essentially the same. Every time a new one shows up, they think we haven't been around that tired old block a thousand times before.