Muslim asks Houston Police Department not to remove hijabs during searches

"At the scene, the officer's responsibility is to ensure there are no weapons or contraband It's for the safety of the officer." But that doesn't matter. When Islamic law and American law and practice conflict, it is always the latter that must give way, safety considerations be damned.

"Muslim asks HPD to revise frisking rules on headscarfs," by Safiya Ravat for the Houston Chronicle, August 19 (thanks to Ab):

A Muslim protester is calling for revision of the frisking process at the Houston Police Department after she said she was stripped of her religious headscarf during a recent arrest this month while rallying for janitor wages.

The incident highlights the varying policies local police agencies have regulating when religious head coverings are allowed during the arresting and booking process. It also shows the fine line law enforcement must straddle when trying to respect one's faith while ensuring that people who are arrested do no harm to themselves or others.

Ilana Alazzeh, 23, was arrested by HPD Aug. 1 while participating in a roadblock protest at a busy intersection in the Galleria area. She and two dozen other protesters sat in the middle of the intersection with arms interlocked.

Alazzeh, who has Israeli, Palestinian and Pakistani roots, was the only protester wearing a hijab - the headscarf - worn by female adherents of the Islamic faith while in the presence of men.

After their arrest for obstruction of traffic, HPD officers took the handcuffed protesters to the Police Department's gymnasium to ID and process them before incarceration.

"Initially they were very cordial," said Alazzeh, a communications specialist from Washington, D.C., who works for the Service Employees International Union.

She was called up to a table of officers for basic identification questions. One officer chatted with her about Ramadan, she said, and another asked about her headscarf.

A female officer at the table noted down in her file, "headscarf religious reasons," Alazzeh said. "She told me, 'I put that in there so you won't be bothered because of it.' "

Minutes later, Alazzeh was approached by a different female officer who began the frisking process and started unwrapping her headscarf in plain view of male officers and protesters.

"Whoa, whoa! This is my religious headscarf," she told the officer as she tried to back away. "Can't you just feel through it?" she asked.

"The officer said, 'No, if you want your religious headscarf, you shouldn't protest,' " Alazzeh said.

She said she pleaded with the officer, asking if a nun would be treated the same way, to which Alazzeh said the officer replied, "This is just procedure … I don't know what you have in there. You might be hiding a gun."

Not seen as stripping

HPD Lt. Patrick Dougherty said frisking is an integral part of the arresting process.

"At the scene, the officer's responsibility is to ensure there are no weapons or contraband," Dougherty said. "It's for the safety of the officer."

A general pat-down is conducted on the exterior of clothing, he said, but if an officer deems it necessary to remove an outer garment to ensure safety, that can be done.

"We don't consider removing an outer garment such as a coat or scarf to be stripping somebody," he said. "If we were stripping, it would have to be done in private by the same gender."

That's where the difference lies. Alazzeh considered the headscarf part of her necessary clothing.

"In many different religions and cultures, taking off the headscarf is equivalent to taking off my shirt in public," she explained.

Muslims are not the only ones who wear religious head coverings; nuns can be seen wearing hair veils, and male Sikhs often wear turbans.

"We do work with people on their unique religious issues," said Dougherty.

If a request was made, he said, a supervisor could have asked the officer to handle the situation differently, perhaps removing the headscarf in private to check for a weapon. "But there's no documentation that there was a request," he said.

Both the Harris County Sheriff's Office and the Sugar Land Police Department said removal of any type of religious head covering is not necessary during arrest.

"We require an exterior pat-down," said Sugar Land police spokesman Doug Adolf, "but that doesn't require removal of their clothing."...

While things are less rigid during arrest, incarceration is a much stricter matter, said Harris County Sheriff's Deputy Thomas Gilliland.

During incarceration, most jails - including HPD's and the Harris County jail - strictly prohibit items of clothing like scarves, turbans, habits and even shoelaces, to keep inmates from using them to commit suicide or hide contraband....

After her scarf was removed in the gym, Alazzeh said, it was tossed back on her head, then taken away again during incarceration. She used an extra shirt to cover her hair during her 12 hours in jail until her employer posted bail for her and other union protesters.

She is filing an internal affairs complaint against HPD.

"All of these horrible things that happen to people, are perpetuated by people who say they are just following orders," said Alazzeh. "When you're doing your job, there's a way to do things that's not infringing on people's rights and liberties and dignity."

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Awrah or Awrat (Arabic: عورة‎) is a term used within Islam which denotes the intimate parts of the body, for both men and women, which must be covered with clothing. Exposing the awrah is unlawful in Islam and is regarded as sin. (Wikipedia)

We would therefore expect Muhammad, the Prophet of Islam, to avoid uncovering the intimate parts of his body in public, especially when he is supposed to serve as an "example for Muslims*" to emulate. But..

http://crossmuslims.blogspot.com/2010/03/muhammad-and-nudity-mahomet-et-la.html

Alazzeh considered the headscarf part of her necessary clothing.

"In many different religions and cultures, taking off the headscarf is equivalent to taking off my shirt in public," she explained.

How about...

Here we go! That's how it starts...soon we'll be doing whatever the muslims want like paying jizya. America please wake up!!!!!!!!!

I do not understand why being examined by a female officer would be haram. Can someone please cite Koranic references for this?

There are countries with traditions I find so disgusting and odious that I refuse to visit, lest I run afoul of their laws or traditions and get in trouble.

This lady did not have to come to the US. We have laws that require positively identifying people. If this woman didn't like that her Hijab was removed by police, she shouldn't have come.

Those are the laws of this land. If they don't like it, don't come here.

If I am not mistaken there is nothing in the Qur'an that forces am Islamic woman to wear a head scarf or to be fully covered. It does say that a woman should dress modestly. Then again so does the Bible in the New Testament. So if the police are not going to mess with a Muslim woman's head gear then if a Christian woman is wearing a hat and claims its for religious reasons her hat should not be messed with either (even if its a baseball cap).

She wants "dignity"? Well, she can always go and live in a Muslim country and enjoy all the "dignity" a woman can imagine enjoying. She might not want to talk back to an official though, unless she thinks getting an Islamic whipping is "dignified."

Once, when I participated in a pro-life rally, a police officer asked us to step a little bit farther back from the road (about a yard or so). We complied and gave him no trouble, and he gave us no further trouble.

I don't have much sympathy for anyone who gets a hijab torn off while knowingly blocking a thoroughfare.


I'm starting to smell a slight odor of Backlash building up as more and more of the islamic oppression cases happen in the West.

Canada now has the largest Police force that embraced Shariah law by allowing the Hijab and Niqab as part of the Uniform since the Police Board Head is a pro-Shariah Muslims.
This would explain why the Police are more Tolerant to quasi-pedophilia acts in public since islam sanctions it in many islamic hell holes. This also explains why the Police WILL NOT stop the islamic protests where children, and babies, are used as Human Shields during the marches.

The Toronto Polcie are now Social Workers with guns that pick and choose which groups must obey the Laws of canada . A few years back the Tamils that Supported their Terrorist buddies back in Sri Lanka had spit on the ZPolice during a protest and then stormed the major Highway in Toronto with Babies as shields and occupied the Highway for almost 9 hours to give canada the middle finger that Terrorism works and the gutless white Politicians are puppets for the "Refugees" in canada using welfare to fund Terrorism back home.

Somali's in Toronto have set up their little no-go zone at Kipling and Dixon rd , Little Pakistan has it's Shariah zones, Little gaza and all the other islamic parasites hate canada but love the Welfare chaeck funded by the same Christians and Jews that hate so much.
Poor Allah, his children must flee those islamic armpits in the ME for safety and freedoms in non-islamic Nations , but, many muslims merely go right on welfare as pathetic inbred losers too stupid and too lazy to be self-reliant.

Muslim are free to leave the West at any time if the hate it so much, and take their 7th century death cult and pedophilia with them.

If I am not mistaken there is nothing in the Qur'an that forces am Islamic woman to wear a head scarf or to be fully covered.

Muslim Man (and Woman) does not live by the Koran alone. Just as important to them -- if not more so -- is the Sunna. And at the heart of the Sunna are the hadiths.

For more details, see:

The Koran's important -- but don't forget the hadiths

In many different religions and cultures, taking off the headscarf is equivalent to taking off my shirt in public," she explained.

Sorry, Ilana, but that's NOT the case in THIS culture. You came here to live. So live by our laws and rules. Or leave. It's really that simple. We're getting a little (a lot) sick of your bullshit...

A frisking is a frisking is a frisking.

A pat-down is a pat-down.

End of story.

If she'd been a politically minded Catholic nun from one of the more ornery Orders, I suspect she'd have copped exactly the same treatment, if the police officer deemed from her Attitude that she just might be hiding something under all that cloth.


Furthermore: in *our* sane and sensible societies, the stuff that grows on a woman's head is NOT deemed to be equivalent to the stuff that grows on her crotch. Her *head* is NOT her pudendum. If this fool thinks she can pretend that having one's head hair, ears and neck exposed in public is the equivalent of displaying one's all for the Playboy centrefold, or even that it is equivalent to stripping down to one's bra, or flashing a set of bare boobs - she should be greeted by gales of scornful laughter.


And as the article also noted - "During incarceration, most jails - including HPD's and the Harris County jail - strictly prohibit items of clothing like scarves, turbans, habits and even shoelaces, to keep inmates from using them to commit suicide or hide contraband....".

A woman would be able to hang herself with a headscarf...or could be strangled with it, **by another inmate**. The no-hijab rule is for her own protection while she's 'inside', *as well as* for the preservation of public order and the making difficult of smuggling. You could hide quite a bit inside one of those Slave Hoods.

She said she pleaded with the officer, asking if a nun would be treated the same way, to which Alazzeh said the officer replied, "This is just procedure … I don't know what you have in there. You might be hiding a gun."

Well, there were a number of nuns who protested in the past (Vietnam and others come to mind) and I don't remember ever reading of a nun giving the police a hard time about head gear as if their faith gave them special privileges during arrests. My guess is "No. Nuns were not treated differently at all." I thought that was part of the pacifist movement but I have been wrong before in life.

And, why didn't the reporter do any research on that or was it that perhaps the topic never came up in the unenlightened time period and that is why there seems to be no written articles about it. But if that is true, surely there are people who were police back then who could speak about how it was handled. I mean, it's not like they all can be dead at this point in time and the policy manuals all were destroyed in a fire.

LemonLime, I agree with your response to Xavier823.

I clicked on your link to the article about the "Qur'an but don't forget the Hadith" -- the article you wrote at that counterjihad blog. Nice article. I left two comments there in which I challenged part of the logic of your article, but my comments are still awaiting moderation by the blog owner, at the moment.

Blangwort, what you say is said well and true as said. It is a perfectly well established traditional view, but it is no longer satisfactory, by itself. Matters have changed, in today's times, dangerously. I like what you have said, but this is related IMO to what you have said. By all measures, below is a realistic assesment, and must become the new reality, that should have been established, and enforced back in 622CE, and nearly was, but for lack of resolve to finsh off mohammad back then.

The following is not really aimed for you, but rather explaining to the generally uninformed public readership here, the dhimmi, as well as those anti-jihadists, who have not yet managed to see the big picture, in full HD, of the world gang, that many of us are well coming to realize, looking at the giganic HD picture, through time and facts.

Worst off, only a small percentage of the public, know and understand, islam is just a gang, fully subject to all criminal laws, including RICO provisions. muzz's are commanded to commit the most heinous acts world wide for all time, and to emulate the 'dreamer upper', 'mad man mo', who practiced all the worst, long defined, most heinous criminal acts, in the history of mankind, known to man.

All criminal acts practiced by a muzz are of course, wink wink, done in the name of "religion", so wink wink, therefore the nice people of the Western world must understand and excuse, all of muslims premeditated acts of heinous or otherwise criminal nature. Get it?

Do the above facts, that we all know here, and many know elsewhere by other means, define a religion? Explain how!

Do the following examples, from 622, and contemporary times, define a religion, or in any way characterize a religion? No, not ever, for these examples define but a gang of criminals, bent on eternal conquest of all of mankind, until ultimately, they themselves centuries out destroy themselves, if they were to win their goal. Like all evil, it knows no end, no limit, because it is evil, it is pure eternal destruction.

This whole gang picture is an example of the use of a perfect "meme", the propagandizing of a gang, that has become so deeply embedded in the truly peace-loving public, that they are not able now to raise their minds out of lethargy, and think of 14 centuries of proven continual heinous criminal behavior by islam against their own kind, and all others.

Following bracketed is an excerpt from islamic leadership, taken from a report by PMW, in 2003, about contemporary times from: http://www.wnd.com/2003/07/19775/

[“Palestinian religious and academic leaders publicly teach that the Israel-Palestinian conflict is part of Islam’s irreconcilable religious war against the Jews,” he says.

“To justify this view,” he adds, “Palestinians repeatedly cite Islamic sources to demand as religious doctrine, that Jews be hated, even demanding the killing of Jews as the will of Allah.”

Marcus says “the continued expression of this PA worldview is most ominous.”

“For by depicting redemption as dependent on Muslims’ murder of Jews, the murder of Jews is being presented as mandatory religious obligation,” he says.]

Next, An important series of contemporary lessons from the facts presented in just one article, that apply to the current world conflict, from the original mohammad gang leader's behavior lessons of 622 CE, is found here:

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Muhammad/myths-mu-qurayza.htm

Framed originally as the muslims against the tribes of Jews of Banu, it of course applies, (just the same as with hitler’s deceptive progressive aggression), to the whole worlds peoples, Americans, Russians, Chinese, South Americans, India, Europe, with no exception.

The whole situation is ridiculous.I suspect it is all to see how far they can force the West to obey Islam.There is this very strange case which I myself find rare-like:

"The Tapada of Lima,or the Use of the Niqab in America from 1560-1860,for 300 Years"

http://www.antisharia.com/2012/05/21/the-tapada-of-limaor-the-use-of-the-niqab-in-america-from-1560-1860for-300-years/

AND ALSO

"The Legend that Could be True:the Cousin of Josephine,wife of Napoleon,had been made a Slave and later Wife of the Ottoman Sultan"

http://www.antisharia.com/2012/04/01/the-legend-that-could-be-truethe-cousin-of-josephinewife-of-napoleonhad-been-made-a-slave-and-later-wife-of-the-ottoman-sultan/

Crying about removing a lousy scarf is a big bunch of BS. Say a muslima in police custody was using that excuse and had a razorblade tucked away in her greasy head that happened to be covered for religious reasons, then the blade got used on another muslima. Or say that muslima was so shamed by being arrested that she sliced herself while in police custody. Or worse yet, police personnel got injured due to fear of insulting someone charged with a crime. Imagine all the indignant howls and the resulting lawsuits demanding large amounts of money and accusations of the police not doing their job. Of course, it would be everyone else's fault, but surely not the fault of not offending tender islamic sensitivites. I say strip 'em down and if its humiliating, then don't run afoul of US laws.

Last I heard, the U.S. was still a free country.

Therefore, the good Ms. Ilana Alazzeh is free to leave the country, and preferably, stay out.

The sooner, the better, I say.

Poor dear. Wonder if she's ever given any thought to how non-Muslims are treated in Muslim lands, and for doing nothing at all except being non-Muslim? And all that happened to her was that she had her damn Muslim head covering removed, and for legitimate police investigative reasons.

Muslims are NEVER concerned about the rights of non-Muslims across the globe unless it's for some propaganda point to advance Islam. Which means it's all self-centered as is everything in Islam. Islam is the ultimate religious experiment in narcissism.

And how do these comments relate to the article? Well, unfortunately, as is being seen with increasing frequency, the gang's questioning of the right to be frisked versus religious exeptionalism, and other stunning interference examples with the proper established order of security and administration and freedom of speech, and to bear arms (UN), is a matter that shows the success and the extreme danger America is in, because of the lethargy of the minds, to recognize the true facts of islam. The issue is coming, sooner, it appears, with this example among so many.

We have apparently at least a few hundred muslims in highly sensitive government positions, at all levels. We have a leader who is considered a muslim by many and many examples, and who far to often acts as though he is a muslim, in his behaviors, IMO. The chessboard is being loaded, against a largely unsuspecting opponent, America!

The above should be as simple as blangwort stated, but it is no more. Everywhere, unremitting pushing against America's principles, at all levels, by an unprincipled evil gang of criminals, is increasing, with the end result of getting sharia practiced, that is, getting the people into the harness, and blinders of sharia! This frisking pushback is but one of hundreds or thousands of examples just in America.

And with all the above, while we are talking about a lawful police agency, why did such a large order of expensive HP (oh yeah, we're a rich nation, of course), (not lower cost range designed) cartridges, especially for the powerful .40 calibre handgun, get recently put in, for so many non security government agencies, like the Weather Bureau, Social Security, NOAA? They are supposed to be not used for warfare, by international war, due to the tissue damage done by them.

"All of these horrible things that happen to people, are perpetuated by people who say they are just following orders," said Alazzeh.
I assume she's referring to Female Genital Mutilation, Acid Attacks, Stoning, Amputations, "Honor" Killings, Using Children as Suicide Bombers, Using Children as Shields and other "horrible" Islamic "things"...

Following orders from "Allah" and his "Prophet"..

Disrobe the images! - William Shakespeare

"...the Cousin of Josephine,wife of Napoleon,had been made a Slave and later Wife of the Ottoman Sultan"

There's a difference in Islam?

Hi traeh, thanks for commenting on my essay. As you probably know by now, your comments are approved now -- and I just posted a reply there.

1. "...hijab - the headscarf - worn by female adherents of the Islamic faith while in the presence of men."

NO!

Hijab is the headscarf worn by SOME female adherents of the Islamic hoax while in the presence of unrelated adult men.

If this woman were from a country or a culture that requires the more slave like burqa instead of mere hijab, would the police in any way be expected to allow her to wear that getup while incarcerated in the U.S.?

This is another learning moment; an opportunity for the American public to learn that rather than being required by Islam, hijab is an article of clothing required by men--for women--in SOME Islamically driven cultures.

These woment are Muslims, too. Chechen women. The variety and degree of headcovering (or lack of) is obvious:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ng4Nz_gxXuU&feature=relmfu

Would this be religious behavior?

http://sheikyermami.com/2012/08/20/canuckistan-from-the-river-to-the-sea-muselmaniacs-zionhass/

http://blazingcatfur.blogspot.com.au/2012/08/arrested-for-walking-my-dog.html

Is this behavior worthy of protecting, like not frisking muslims? Or, as the title mentions, thug behavior, is this the behavior of a gang?

One that already has the Canucks scared and totally confused?

I have personally witnessed, on more than a couple of occasions, muslimeys with mobile phones tucked into their hijabs for hands-free use. .despite the ostensible 'cool factor', , it does give one cause for concern about what else is tucked-away there.

It is not Haram to be examined by a female officer however, I believe the article mentioned the woman was being watched by male officers as well. Therefore, that would make it Haram for her to be viewed by men without her head scarf. I hope I clarified things for you.

Of the little I know about Islam, I don't recall ever reading about Muhammad going around the Kabba naked. Therefore, can you provide actual textual evidence from the Koran of Hadith supporting that since you attached a link supporting that claim I thought you might also be claiming the same, if so I would like to be educated i that aspect of Islam.

! Shock ! Horror ! Haram ! Pass the smelling salts.

You wrote: ...that would make it Haram for her to be viewed by men without her head scarf.

We get a lot of trolls on JW claiming that wearing the hijab is a cultural thing - it's nothing to do with Islam. However, you say that it is a religious matter! A woman being seen by unrelated men without her hijab is Haram, you say.

Can you please give us the religious justification from Islam so I can quote you the next time anyone claims that wearing a hijab is cultural.

Thanx! Thanx! Thanx! (A reminder of the Trinity!)

LemonLime,

Thanks, I read your reply to my comment under your article, Don't forget the hadiths. Have briefly replied in turn.

LemonLime,
At the moment, my reply to your reply to my comments on your article is still waiting for the comment moderator to approve it.

And what about all the things that are done in Muslims countries which infringe upon the dignity of non-Muslims? Oh, but it's never a good time to talk about that, is it?

It's like the old saying, "What's Mine is Mine, What's Yours We Share"

Another commenter used to refer to a ratchet effect: land that has once been Islamic can never go back. A person who has converted to Islam may never leave.

Pakistani police have arrested a mentally disabled 11-year-old girl after a mob accused her of desecrating pages of the Koran.

The mob demanded the Christian girl’s arrest and threatened to burn down Christian homes outside the capital Islamabad, local media say.

Read more: http://www.maghrebchristians.com/2012/08/20/pakistan-disabled-girl-arrested-for-blasphemy/#ixzz244oKccxg


Youssef

"At the scene, the officer's responsibility is to ensure there are no weapons or contraband It's for the safety of the officer." Come on now we all know that an individual can not hide a weapon under her scarf because all there is underneath the scarf are ears and hair so let's think logically here and present the facts as it is and not as we imagine it to be because we all know that our imagniatins can surely run wild!

"When Islamic law and American law and practice conflict, it is always the latter that must give way, safety considerations be damned." I think minority groups should always be given way because they are the ones that are more likely to be oppresssed and have their rights taken away in a heart beat. A great example of that would be the enslavement of Blacks. History repeats itself and as the saying goes, "Muslims are the new negros." The number one world super power I guess always has a new group to enslave. Safety is the number one concern of all Americans therefore, I think there is a little exaggeration when you say, "safety considerations be damned."

Let's be honest here, individuals are more likely to hide weapons under their pants and shirts and I have never heard of a officer stripping someone naked to do a weapon search for those clothes types. Therefore, I agree with Alazzeh. The officer could have just patted her head scarf instead of removing it completely. Again it would have been different if it were a nun as she said, which is why this incident should just be classified as another case of Islamaphobia.

""The officer said, 'No, if you want your religious headscarf, you shouldn't protest," Alazzeh said."" Interesting, so an individual can not practise their religious values if he/she wants to also practise social norms. This remark, somewhat reminds me of the law; seperation of church and state. Whatever, happened to the first amendment of the constitution?

"A general pat-down is conducted on the exterior of clothing, he said, but if an officer deems it necessary to remove an outer garment to ensure safety, that can be done." I would have uderstood if Alazzeh was wearing a Burka,(a clothing that covers, head to toe which is worn by Afghan women) which even in that case should have been deserved to be examined in a private, out of the sight of any men but she was wearing a scarf only.

"We don't consider removing an outer garment such as a coat or scarf to be stripping somebody," he said. "If we were stripping, it would have to be done in private by the same gender." Here again is a lack of respect for different cultures and religions because what you consider to be normal in one culture is absolutly not the case in another culture. For example, to hold the index finger and thumb together in America while expressing your appreciation for something is normal however, in the Middle East it is seen as a threat. Therefore, an outergarment for Americans is not seen as an outer garment for the Islamic religion.

"We do work with people on their unique religious issues," said Dougherty." I don't see that as working with someone I see that as degrading someones honor and values. The interesting thing is that Alazzeh would have no problem with entering a private room and searched instead her belief system degraded and no one cared. To that I say, if we don't respect others then others will not respect us. We live in one world, we have differnet values, beliefs, social norms therefore, let's co-exist and live in peace. One thing that is certain is that so long as we don't strive for peace and welcome differnt groups then we will never be safe from the outside world. History repeats itself the oppressers have never gotten away with their oppression and in the end the oppressed got there way. Great examples of that are the atrocities that happened to Blacks, Indians, Japanese, Jews etc.

I've left Islam. This is my equivalent to shouting it out! I just had to express it. I've posted here before as a Muslim and I can't tell anyone in real life so I'm telling everyone here. It's taken months, really years of soul-searching and questioning but I've finally freed my mind of the intellectual slavery that is Islam and though I don't know where to go from here I'm happy that I've been enlightened. I feel like I can love all of humanity now and all the hate has left me. Don't be intimidated by Muslims/Islam, it is a vile and dangerous religion. I'm sorry, I know this is random, but I just had to say it (or type it). I'M FREE.

May I be the first one here to congratulate you! Congratulations. Enjoy your freedom!


And to other Muslims reading this....you've nothing to lose but your chains! Ditch Islam and free yourself!

What a load of liberal codswallop. We are not talking about slavery but a simple search for weapons. If one world thinks that a razor blade or such like cannot be hidden under a hijab then it is he who is in lala land

"Quraysh (the tribe of Muhammad) used to circumambulate the Kaaba naked, whistling and clapping their hands." (Fath al-Bari, commentary of Sahih al-Bukhari - 264)

Nine years AFTER Islam:
"On the year nine, when Abu Bakr was the leader of the pilgrims on his (Muhammad's) behalf, the prophet (pbuh) ordered him to make this announcement: "No naked person is allowed to circumambulate the Kaaba."" (Sahih Muslim, commented by al-Nawawi)

And:
"No pagan is allowed to perform Hajj AFTER this (the ninth) year, and no naked person is allowed to perform Tawaf* of the Kaba. (Bukhari, 2.26.689)

Check out the link in the first comment and make your own reasonable deductions.

As with many different religious groups, we see the growing secularization of groups and less people practicing medieval faiths completely as in scripted in the texts. With the mass production of media, less people see religion as an important aspect of life because of the confusion media and society has caused. Therefore,we can also say the same about Islam as well. As you said, individuals are mentioning to you that the hijab is a cultural thing and has nothing to do with Islam, then why is it that I found a verse in the Koran that Allah(God in Arabic) is commanding his slave to say to the women to cover themselves? Here is the quote from the Koran: "O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies (i.e.screen themselves completely except the eyes or one eye to see the way). That will be better, that they should be known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed. And Allâh is Ever Oft¬Forgiving, Most Merciful (33:59)."

We should not mistaken hijab for scarf because hijab is a command in the Koran and scarves were their since this verse was revealed therefore, the wearing of scarves are a cultural norm but hijab is not. That 's exactly why you will see many women from different cultures wearing scarves however,, you will only see Muslim women wearing hijab. Hope I given an answer to your question Buraq. You are more then welcome.

Congratulations, Amelia! Welcome to the Light!

Have you read Understanding Muhammad by Dr. Ali Sina, a former muslim? It is a MUST READ and he will send you a PDF copy free if you request it at faithfreedom2@gmail.com. He would be so happy to hear from you, as he has devoted his life to saving muslims from islam. He can help you with advice on which next steps to take and how to stay safe while fully embracing your new-found freedom.

If you're comfortable revealing it, what was your former screen name here at JW?

I see. But I thought you claimed that Muhammad went around the Kabba naked?

I'm really not hear to argue, swear, offend or say mean comments to anyone or about anyone. I'm hear to see both sides of the argument and weigh in myself, try to benefit others with the little I know and also benefit from others with the knowledge they put forth. I like to be fare and not take sides. Also, I am not promoting or diminishing any religious sects, just speaking the facts and speaking logic. I believe in world peace. With that being said please don't find it offensive if I speak the truth and have sympathy for the minority groups.

Thank you, Amelia. It's not often we get to read of good news stories here at J.W. Congratulations, stay safe and enjoy your new life.

I guess one thing leads to another but the officer said and I quote: I don't know what you have in there. You might be hiding a gun, end of quote. Therefore, realistically speaking you can not hide a gun underneath a scarf and no one said anything about a razor blade, that's only your addition.

Please stop taking things out of proportions this woman mentioned in the article did not force the West to obey Islam even though are Muslims who do force the West to obey Islam just like there are Christians who force the Middle East to obey Christianity. This woman mentioned simply did not want her values to be taken away from her without proper measures!

My wife is a police officer; you would be surprised what may be hidden in the least obvious places. You may look for world peace and admirable as that maybe I hardly think the moslems would be your natural allies.

Initially they were very cordial," said Alazzeh, a communications specialist from Washington, D.C., who works for the Service Employees International Union.

Has anyone noticed the screaming sirens here? That she's an envoy from Obama's special pet, the chief employer of union thugs, the SEIU -- and from Washington, yet? It shouldn't be surprising that the SEIU and the "religion of peace" should become fast friends and allies. She's a "communications specialist"? Communicating what?

You are full of prunes bud...

When you are arrested, you lose most of your rights immediately...I have personally body searched dangerous people who could be a danger to me, themselves or others...and I have, from time to time, found weapons and drugs...I don't care who you are, how powerful you are, or what religion you ascribe to, you are going to be searched, and you are 'going' to comply...
Refusing is not an option...Body cavities are not exempt...
Someone who does not like this treatment should not get themselves arrested to begin with...No one should expect, nor get, 'special' treatment...

Why are we looking to see what it says about head scarves in the Koran? Why should we have to find out whether or not, it's (I hate to use Islamic words/terms) "harem" What's the reason? Why are we even entertaining this and other religiously based requests that diverts our rule of law?

We follow standard police manual procedures, period, end of discussion. TAKE IT OFF !


We don't subscribe to Islam's rule of law, we subscribe to ours !

Thank you western infidel & CGW for your support, it's much appreciated. 

@CGW
I have read many articles by Ali Sina and visited his website but I haven't read his book, though I hope to soon (I'm trying my best not to get distracted from my studies; the emotional turmoil of the past few weeks has been affecting my studies). I've also spent a lot of time at wikiIslam and read many testimonials of ex-Muslims both there and elsewhere on the Internet. I've always disliked many fundamental aspects of Islam but I pushed it aside and even defended the faith from critics online, rejecting all the bad things in Islam as "cultural" and all the violence as "political".
I only posted here three or four times last year under the screen name "Amelia" (which is not my real name) so I'm not a JW  regular. I don't think anyone would remember me; I remember an argument I had with "Dumbledore" or something other on here last year. I see it now, I was in so much denial of what Islam really is. I rejected the Hadith almost completely last year and became a de facto "Quran-only Muslim". I see Quranism as sort of like cannabis and apostacy as like cocaine; it's like a soft version of apostasy and you eventually go all the way; most of the ex-Muslims I've read about abandoned the Hadith and became Quranists before realizing it was all insane and leaving Islam fully. Personally, I ditched Islam altogether a couple of weeks ago. I think I'm an atheist I've been reading and watching a lot of atheist material, I don't think I'll ever join another religion. 
I still get the occasional "what if Islam is true?" fear and I can't help but think about what lies on the other side after we die (perhaps that's the lifelong Islamic indoctrination). I owe a lot to Ayaan Hirsi Ali, I read "Infidel" and I saw so much of myself in her and she expressed so many of my doubts and reservations about Islam when she was Muslim. I really cried reading it, even though I still concluded that she "misunderstood" Islam and remained a Muslim. I'm sorry, I'm trying not to rant or babble on about myself but thank you all. 

Whereabouts exactly in the middle-east are Christians forcing moslems to obey Christianity. Sorry but to quote Buraq "you are a clown"

I've used Stanley (industrial razor) Blades for years in my line business. .and cut myself number of times.
What's under that hijab? . . Granted, not an AK47, however, any tool is dangerous in the wrong hands.

All religions are corrupt...There may be an ultimate God of the universe, creator of all, but as soon as a religion is founded on it corruption sets in...Religions are about God, but are not God, which is why they are subject to corruption...Corruption is the root cause of all religious violence in history...Religious corruption creates religious supremacist bigots...Killing, robbing, raping, enslaving people in the name of God, is the most dense form of religious caused corruption...Most of the worlds religions have lifted themselves out of dense corruption... believers are still religious supremacist bigots, but not generally violent...Islam has retained its original corruption and is every bit as dense as the day it was created...

I forgot to add, thumbs up for leaving Islam...

Domenick, you beat me to it!
Really, why are we at all discussing if removing headscarf is or is not allowed by koran, or debate whether it violates islamic "culture"? Who cares?

And if the koran says that a muhammedan must not be arrested by an infidel shall we discuss that too? What's next?

Koran says many revolting, perverse, psychopathic things. Does it mean that we must allow the muhammedans to carry them out, otherwise we are violating their religious freedom? Are we violating their freedom from preventing them from violating ours?
There is Freedom and there is muhammedan freedom. And we should say "screw your freedom" each time they evoke it.

If the person thinks that a police officer by following the law violates the person's religion then he should be told that he is free to change his religion to one that doesn't collide with the law of the country, or just SHUT THE F..K UP!

Amelie

if you *have* indeed well and truly left Islam: Congratulations! Welcome to the company of the free.

(I have read three of Ayaan's books - Infidel, Nomad, and The Caged Virgin. I'm sure she'd be delighted to know that her books had helped you to free yourself). Other good writers are Nonie Darwish, Wafa Sultan and Taslima Nasreen.

Walk carefully and watch your back. We know here, none better, how dangerous things can be for an apostate (there are a number of apostates who post here; I've been worrying about one called 'fineliving', an older lady, she hasn't posted for awhile and I hope she's OK).

Give yourself time to heal; to learn how to live free; to break all the 'cult habits'. And: take self-defence classes. Have you contacted 'Former Muslims United'? They will probably have good advice for you on personal safety and 'living independently'.

Visit and post here anytime; the insights of apostates are always helpful in discussions.

I couldn't of said it better and a picture is worth a thousand words. Don't want their religious freedom violated, then don't get arrested, simple as that, don't like our laws? Move to one of the other islamic countries. Want freedom in America? Get out of islam. This is America and sooner or later the muslim people will lose their religious freedom because islam is not a religion but a sick political ideology that according to the quran can not Coexist with any other religion, and people are starting to understand that. Leave America, we don't want islam and it's sick perverted ways here, now nor never, don't they understand that? And they will not have islam rule over America, ever.

One should always remember that this whole hijabbery is only a few decades old; I spend much time in Islamic countries in the early seventies and there was none to be seen anywhere.

The shrouds and the freedom sack hysteria came when young Thais, Philippinos, Pakistanis and Indians, Pakistanis and north African muslims went to work in Arabia, where they were properly indoctrinated, given money and promises, if they went back home to build a mosque they would be taken care of.

Now the disease spreads like wildfire. Even in Bosnia and Kosovo the Saudis pay people to cover up; and there are brand-new mosques in every town.

The oil money we pay to the Arabs goes straight back into jihad and da'awa. That must be understood, otherwise nothing will ever change.

When I was a kid, it was not uncommon for tough street girls to hide razor blades in their hair.

When one breaks the law in this country, they lose some of their "rights"...even religious rights.
Suppose a nun had broken the law and was being searched, as is required of anyone after being arrested. She would also lose her right to go to Mass, etc. while incarcerated. It is no less for this woman who broke the law. She gave up her "rights" to protest(removal of the scarf) when she was arrested.

Sure, innocent until proven guilty in a court of law, but the police are under an obligation to ensure the "defendant" remains safe and causes no harm to others while in police custody. This is only possible if one is searched such as this law-breaker was. If she didn't want to have her head searched, she shouldn't have broken the law. Once someone has broken one law, the police must assume they are willing to break others and carry a concealed weapon to use against an officer or other inmate.

Studying the Constitution is not enough to know what the "law" is in a city or State. One must also study procedures and this would have informed this woman that search and seizure is one thing officers are allowed, required, to do. If she doesn't want her scarf removed, then she should be obedient to the laws, thereby avoiding arrest, search and seizure.

Our latest Islamopologist, "world", has thus far presented a tissue of half-truths and distortions sufficient to blow one's nose on for summer allergies, perhaps.

Just to pluck one:

I guess one thing leads to another but the officer said and I quote: I don't know what you have in there. You might be hiding a gun, end of quote.

Nope, the article does not report that the "officer said" which somebody could "quote" and then "end quote". The article reports that the Muslima in question said that the officer said. I.e., it's a "she said, she said" situation. Here is the verbatim text:

She [the Muslima, Ilana Alazzeh] said she pleaded with the officer, asking if a nun would be treated the same way, to which Alazzeh said the officer replied, "This is just procedure … I don't know what you have in there. You might be hiding a gun."

Let's extract the relevant words for the sophomoric or Islamically challenged:

Alazzeh said the officer replied...

I.e., we have to rely on the word of the Muslima reporting what the officer said. I wouldn't believe a Mualima if you gave me a million dollars. Somehow, I doubt that world made an innocent mistake with his "quote"..."ending quote" reportage. I think we just saw some sly kitman here.

Police officers know too well by now that not only razor blades, but even knives or any sharp flat instrument which can stab and kill in a split-second can be hidden in the flimsiest of garments -- a sleeve, a collar, a hoodie, a silk shirt.

world is peddling nonsense. I merely teased out one from likely dozens of crusty balls of camelshit from his posts.

Commenting on the "victim" of the story, Ilana Alazzeh (Mashallah! for the days of Condoleezza!), Skeen66 noted the important details:

she's an envoy from Obama's special pet, the chief employer of union thugs, the SEIU -- and from Washington, yet?... She's a "communications specialist"? Communicating what?

Why, the answer seems clear: she's communicating -- here with a bit of agitprop street theater -- propaganda for Islaminform.

"One should always remember that this whole hijabbery is only a few decades old; I spend much time in Islamic countries in the early seventies and there was none to be seen anywhere."

Well, the 70s were only a few decades old too, relatively speaking. The relatively brief window of incipient freedom in certain Muslim countries seen in the 20th century was entirely due to Western Colonialism and to the West-friendly dictators the West (chiefly the American CIA) -- put in place who helped to curb, if only somewhat, the perennial tendency and appetite for more Islam from the Muslim masses that we now are seeing released back into the atmosphere with the "Arab Spring".

There is nothing Islamic about anything good Muslims ever do or say. Whenever you see anything good among Muslims -- such as the relatively hijabless freedom of women in Cairo in the 70s -- it is utterly, entirely, absolutely due to non-Islamic factors of Western origin.

"Islamically challenged"

Good one!

traeh,

The co-owner of the 1389 blog is pretty good about approving comments quickly -- and she knows you so it shouldn't take long each time you comment. I just posted my reply back to you there.


In response to Amelia 2:47AM.
"I've left Islam."
"it is a vile & dangerous religion"
"I'M FREE"

Hello Amelia: Welcome to the civilized world!!!
I am so pleased to have read your above quoted words.

My hope is that every single person in the world had
the opportunity to read those words.

Love you, Peace- Paul R.

Some Muslima has a website explaining Islam. She may or may not, of course, be accurate about Islam. Nevertheless, this is the kind of thing one sees often whether from Muslim laity or clergy:

The Prophet sallalahu allahi wa salaam said in a sahih hadith I have memorized but whose source at this very moment alludes me: “The woman is ‘Awrah, when she leaves [her home] Shaytān (satan - may Allah curse him) looks at her.”

The Muslima writing this explanation then explains:

All of a woman is awrah.

The Muslima tries to soften the blow of this astounding thought by going on to say:

Awrah is an Islamic term that means "beauty".

Yeah, right. No, girlfriend. awrah does not mean "beauty". It means nibblets, private parts, junk, pudenda.

Thus, this Muslima has been inculcated in the belief that the entire woman is a walking vagina.

The occasion of this Muslima's exposition on awrah was a question from another Muslima wondering whether a woman's feet are considered awrah. In addition to the insane camelshit I already quoted, we can see the vertiginously ludicrous Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder which Islamic thinking causes, in the Muslima's answer:

We know the following about feet, that they do not have to be covered in front of non-maharams, because of the following hadith: Narrated Anas ibn Malik: The Prophet (sallalahu allahi wa salaam) brought Fatimah a slave which he donated to her. Fatimah wore a garment which, when she covered her head, did not reach her feet, and when she covered her feet by it, that garment did not reach her head. When the Prophet (sallalahu allahi wa salaam) saw her struggle, he said: There is no harm to you: Here is only your father and slave. (Hadith no. 4 Sunan Abu Dawud Book 32, Number 4094) . Fatimah R.A did not have to cover her feet or her head (and we know the head is an obligation of khimar to cover) so obviously since this is an issue and feet and head are mentioned in the same instance as things that away from non-maharam men could bring harm, the feet are part of the hard awrah as much as the head (hair, neck, ears, and in some opinions, face) is. This hadith does not make it clear if covering the feet was necessary for salat (prayer) but it does seem to say that there would be harm in the action if a woman failed to cover her feet in front of non-maharam men.

You see, in the West, we have indeed a tiny smattering of eensy-weensy tiny minorities of religious nutcases who obsess about these kinds of things. In Islam, however, the vast mainstream seems to constitute this kind of insanity. And insofar as any given Muslims we see don't seem to be practicing, or promulgating, such insanity, they are either

1) pretending

or

2) exploiting the relative breathing spaces momentarily unenforced by Salafist vigilantes or official Muttawa -- or devout family members and friends keeping you in line -- in between the Totalitarianism that is Islam

Dear LemonLime;
I have read your numerous comments on JW for more
than a year at this point. I am delighted to inform you that I have been both educated and entertained by all your
posts. In addition, your command of the English language is
outstanding.

Included in your vocabulary the word "camelshit" was
quite apt anent the subject of Islam in general.
Under the heading of "camelshit" I would also place the
"Arab Spring", the Koran, the hadiths, the "Religion of
Peace" and all the other vile, loathsome things inherent
in Islam. Keep up the good work LL.

Peace, Paul R.

Thanks Paul R., I really appreciate it. I don't normally fish for compliments, and ordinarily I simply enjoy an opportunity to participate in a venue where a vibrant discussion of the problem of Islam among people is going on more or less on the same page, without myself being singled out for any special praise or role (though of course being human, I like compliments). When, however, that venue (like this one) has had a history where over the years I've been variously insulted, mocked, my arguments even sometimes crucially misunderstood if not distorted to substantiate some calumny against me (not only by the "civilians" but by the ownership too!), when I've not been utterly ignored by other commenters walking blithely by and stepping around my crunched eyeglasses on the sidewalk of a comments thread after I'm knocked down and need help -- then it's especially nice to be appreciated by someone, anyone.

Congratulations and I hope you will enjoy the real life - you make it or break it - you are completely responsible. As swami already mentioned, watch your back - you probably know better than any of us, NEVER trust a Muslim, including your best friends or relatives. There are too many cases when young girls were killed after louring them back home on all kinds of false promises, especially by their fathers/mothers/brothers/....

Re awrah and its bluntly vulgar primary meaning.

Ex-Muslim now-Christian Nonie Darwish - a native speaker of the Egyptian variety of Arabic, raised in Egypt until she was 30 - points the same thing out in her book on shariah, 'Cruel and Usual Punishment'.

In chapter 3 of her book, 'Women: the Centre of Oppression', subsection entitled 'My Body, My Shame', she states: "According to many hadiths, a woman is an awrah, Arabic for pudendum, the external genitalia. **It is as if the main religiously sanctioned word for women in American culture was the detestable four-letter C word.** {my emphasis - dda} A woman is an awrah, not "like an awrah" but she *is* an awrah, meaning, a woman in her totality is an exposed genital area". (She then cites a couple of the offending hadiths, including this one: "the woman is awrah. When she goes outside (the house) the devil welcomes her'. So going outside the house, for the woman, is a form of exposure of her awrah...".

In other words: in Islam, 'woman' = 'c**t' and 'c**t" = woman.

Nonie also points out, very bluntly, that one of the most commonest words used to refer to 'marriage', in the Islamic texts - 'nikkah' - means simply 'sexual intercourse' (I'm not sure why, having used a suitable circumlocution re. the C-word, she didn't employ the same technique with this second term, and refer to 'the F-bomb'; for she could have).

From chapter 2 of her book, which is entitled 'the marriage contract: the lock on the gender cage', includes a subsection titled 'Akd Nikkah'.

"Perhaps the best way to explain the meaning of marriage in Muslim society is to look at a marriage contract.

"The Muslim marriage contract is traditionally called Akd Nikkah, and the literal meaning of the word nikkah in Arabic is "sexual intercourse'.

(Strictly speaking, I gather that this word nikkah corresponds pretty much exactly in meaning and tone to the English F-word - dda).

'Until recently Egypt used Akd Nikkah to describe the marriage contract, but it has now changed it to Akd Zawag (marriage contract: observe that there *is* an alternative). In Pakistan, however, the name is still Nikkah. (They probably have not changed it because Pakistanis do not speak Arabic and the word is not as offensive [to them].)

'The use of the word nikkah to describe marriage was not a mistake or mistranslation; **it is the word often used in the Qur'an and Hadith to describe marriage...

"The Sharia marriage contract is essentially a document granting sexual intercourse rights [ that is, 'f***ing rights' - dda] to the male and giving him total control over his wife or wives".

Woman is c**t.

'Marriage' is a 'f***ing contract'.

This is gangsta-think.


No wonder Conor Cruise O'Brian called the Muslim family 'an abominable institution'.


Please tell me, 1 world, where in the Middle East are Christians forcing Muslims to believe the Christian faith? There are some Kabyles, Turks, Kurds, and Persians who have become Christians in recent years, but this was 100% in spite of the threat of death for apostasy against them. Yes, there are voluntary conversions from Islam to Christianity. But I know of not a single place in the Middle East where any such conversion was forced.

My dear Amelia,

I am deeply impressed by the depth and apparent sincerity of your reflections. I am also interested by the transition to what you characterize as "Quranism" and the difficulties posed by adopting such a theological position.

I regret to admit that I have no sage words of wisdom to guide you on the path you have chosen. But, truth be told, you are on a path which, historically speaking, does not have a lot of precedents to guide the traveler. I can only convey my good wishes and my admiration for your intellectual and spiritual integrity. I got off pretty cheap in that respect and you are confronted with problems that I will never have to solve and costs that I will never have to pay. Hat's off. (Not as if my life has been a long day at the beach, but credit where credit is due).

Should you feel like commenting further, I would be interested to know what impelled you from "Quranism" to full out atheism, or whatever position you have now assumed.

I look forward to reading more from you. And, for both selfish and human-welfare points of view, encourage you to post a blog to explain your thought process -- assuming you live in a country where it is safe to do so. I would not want to see you you martyr yourself to no purpose.

All that said. I wish you all the luck in the world. Be safe and be happy if you can.

Muslims still take female slaves and have no problem stripping them naked...

Amelia said,

I feel like I can love all of humanity now and all the hate has left me.

No small miracle, that. Emmanuel.

Amen, traeh.

Tripple Amen, Buraq.

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