Obama again spreads false claim that Thomas Jefferson hosted first Ramadan iftar dinner at White House

Obama said during his iftar at the White House on August 10: "As I’ve noted before, Thomas Jefferson once held a sunset dinner here with an envoy from Tunisia -- perhaps the first Iftar at the White House, more than 200 years ago." The State Department retailed the same PC myth last year in this article, "Thomas Jefferson's Iftar," July 29. The State announcement quotes Obama saying in 2010: “Ramadan is a reminder that Islam has always been a part of America. The first Muslim ambassador to the United States, from Tunisia, was hosted by President Jefferson, who arranged a sunset dinner for his guest because it was Ramadan — making it the first known iftar at the White House, more than 200 years ago.”

Longtime Jihad Watch writer Hugh Fitzgerald busted this myth in his piece "Barack Obama, The New York Times, that Iftar Dinner, and the rewriting of history," which was first published here at Jihad Watch on August 26, 2010. Here it is again:

Barack Obama, The New York Times, that Iftar Dinner, and the rewriting of history
by Hugh Fitzgerald

"The first Muslim ambassador to the United States, from Tunisia, was hosted by President Jefferson, who arranged a sunset dinner for his guest because it was Ramadan --- making it the first known iftar at the White House, more than 200 years ago." -- Barack Obama, speaking on August 14, 2010, at the "Annual Iftar Dinner" at the White House

Really? Is that what happened? Was there a "first known iftar at the White House" given by none other than President Thomas Jefferson for the "first Muslim ambassador to the United States"? That's what Barack Obama and his dutiful speechwriters told the Muslims in attendance at the 2010 "Annual Iftar Dinner," knowing full well that the remarks would be published for all to see. Apparently Obama, and those who wrote this speech for him, and others who vetted it, find nothing wrong with attempting to convince Americans, as part of their policy of trying to win Muslim hearts and Muslim minds, that American history itself can be rewritten. A little insidious nunc pro tunc backdating, to rewrite American history. And that rewrite of American history has the goal of convincing Americans, in order to please Muslims, that the United States and Islam, that Americans and Muslims, go way back.

As Obama so unforgettably put it in his Cairo Speech (possibly the most inaccurate, the most cavalier about historical truth, of any speech by any President in American history):

As a student of history, I also know civilization's debt to Islam. It was Islam -- at places like Al-Azhar -- that carried the light of learning through so many centuries, paving the way for Europe's Renaissance and Enlightenment. It was innovation in Muslim communities -- (applause) -- it was innovation in Muslim communities that developed the order of algebra; our magnetic compass and tools of navigation; our mastery of pens and printing; our understanding of how disease spreads and how it can be healed. Islamic culture has given us majestic arches and soaring spires; timeless poetry and cherished music; elegant calligraphy and places of peaceful contemplation. And throughout history, Islam has demonstrated through words and deeds the possibilities of religious tolerance and racial equality. (Applause.)

I also know that Islam has always been a part of America's story. The first nation to recognize my country was Morocco. In signing the Treaty of Tripoli in 1796, our second President, John Adams, wrote, "The United States has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Muslims." And since our founding, American Muslims have enriched the United States. They have fought in our wars, they have served in our government, they have stood for civil rights, they have started businesses, they have taught at our universities, they've excelled in our sports arenas, they've won Nobel Prizes, built our tallest building, and lit the Olympic Torch. And when the first Muslim American was recently elected to Congress, he took the oath to defend our Constitution using the same Holy Koran that one of our Founding Fathers -- Thomas Jefferson -- kept in his personal library. (Applause.)

We could go through those two appalling paragraphs with such historians and keen students of history as Gibbon, John Quincy Adams, Tocqueville, Jacob Burckhardt, and Winston Churchill, but that is for another occasion. We could point out that the highly selective quotation - for example from John Adams, whose views on Islam are falsely implied by quoting such a statement as "the United States has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Muslims" which was mere pleasing rhetoric, and that phrase "in itself" left open the possibility of other reasons for enmity, including Muslim hostility. Not John Adams himself but his son John Quincy Adams (our most learned President), who was far more knowledgeable about Islam, was to write about that:

The precept of the koran is, perpetual war against all who deny, that Mahomet is the prophet of God. The vanquished may purchase their lives, by the payment of tribute; the victorious may be appeased by a false and delusive promise of peace; and the faithful follower of the prophet, may submit to the imperious necessities of defeat: but the command to propagate the Moslem creed by the sword is always obligatory, when it can be made effective. The commands of the prophet may be performed alike, by fraud, or by force.

But John Adams himself drew conclusions about Muslims and Islam that were far from favorable. John Adams' unfavorable view of Islam was obscured and turned on its head by Obama, in quoting that single phrase that was part of negotiations-cum-treaty designed to free American ships and seaman from the ever-present threat of attack by Muslim pirates in North Africa (known to history as the Barbary Pirates). John Adams' unfavorable view of Islam was shared by all those who, in the young Republic, had any dealings at all with Muslim envoys. Thomas Jefferson had a copy of the Qur'an in his library not because he was an admirer of that book, or the faith of Islam, but because he was both curious and cultivated. Muslim Congressman Keith Ellison used Jefferson's own copy of the Qur'an. Yet that copy, since it was translated into English by George Sale, has for most devout Muslims no validity whatsoever, for the Qur'an must be read and understood in Arabic. A Qur'an in a language other than Arabic cannot even be called the "Holy Qur'an," though apparently Obama, and his speechwriters, did not know this, in their fulsome description of Jefferson's copy of the Sale translation that was appropriated by Representative Ellison for his own crude and transparent political ploy. Obama wrongly refers to Sales' version as the "Holy Qur'an," and every Muslim at that dinner knew such a book could not possibly be called that. A small mistake, but then there are so many mistakes, and Obama and his speechwriters are so eager to please, and yet so ignorant withal, that these mistakes add up.

There is not a single American statesman or traveler or diplomat in the days of the early Republic who had a good word for Islam. Look high, look low, consult whatever you want in the National Archives or the Library of Congress, and you will not find any such testimony. And the very idea that someday Muslims, adherents of the fanatical faith of Islam, would be here and would dare to invoke the Freedom of Conscience that is guaranteed by our First Amendment, through both the Free Exercise and Establishment Clauses, would have struck them as impossible. For everyone knew then, as so many now apparently do not know, that Islam itself inculcates not freedom of conscience, but blind, unquestioning submission of the individual Muslim to Authority, that is, the Authority of the Qur'an, as glossed by the Sunnah, and the Authority of the Shari'a, the Holy Law of Islam to which all Muslim law codes are supposed to aspire and, ideally, to be modeled on, the Holy Law which embodies, in codified form, the texts and tenets and attitudes of Islam. This, too, Barack Obama and his speechwriters, and such people as John Brennan, Deputy Special Assistant For Homeland Security and Terrorism to the President, apparently do not know.

But let's return to that assertion about Jefferson's "Iftar Dinner," or rather, to that dinner that Barack Obama would have us all believe was the first "Iftar Dinner" at the White House way back in 1805. What actually happened was this.

The American navy, fed up with the constant depredations by Muslim corsairs, who were not so much pirates as Muslims who were encouraged to prey on Christian shipping, and who at times even recorded the areas of the Mediterranean where they planned to go in search of Christian prey, seized a ship that belonged to those who were ruled by the Bey of Tunis. And the Bey of Tunis wanted that ship back. He sent to Washington, for six months, a temporary envoy, one Sidi Soliman Mellimelli, who was not, pace Obama, "the first Muslim ambassador to the United States," but, rather, a temporary envoy.

Here, from the Thomas Jefferson Encyclopedia, is a bit of the background to the story:

The crisis with Tunis erupted when the USS Constitution captured Tunisian vessels attempting to run the American blockade of Tripoli. The bey of Tunis threatened war and sent Mellimelli to the United States to negotiate full restitution for the captured vessels and to barter for tribute.

The backdrop to this state visit was the ongoing conflict between the United States and the Barbary states, autonomous provinces of the Ottoman Empire that rimmed the Mediterranean coast of North Africa. Soon after the Revolutionary War and the consequent loss of the British navy's protection, American merchant vessels had become prey for Barbary corsairs. Jefferson was outraged by the demands of ransom for civilians captured from American vessels and the Barbary states' expectation of annual tribute to be paid as insurance against future seizures. He took an uncharacteristically hawkish position against the prevailing thought that it was cheaper to pay tribute than maintain a navy to protect shipping from piracy.

Jefferson balked at paying tribute but accepted the expectation that the host government would cover all expenses for such an emissary. He arranged for Mellimelli and his 11 attendants to be housed at a Washington hotel, and rationalized that the sale of the four horses and other fine gifts sent by the bey of Tunis would cover costs. Mellimelli's request for "concubines" as a part of his accommodations was left to Secretary of State James Madison. Jefferson assured one senator that obtaining peace with the Barbary powers was important enough to "pass unnoticed the irregular conduct of their ministers."

Despite whispers regarding his conduct, Mellimelli received invitations to numerous dinners and balls, and according to one Washington hostess was "the lion of the season." At the president's New Year's Day levee the Tunisian envoy provided "its most brilliant and splendid spectacle," and added to his melodramatic image at a later dinner party hosted by the secretary of state. Upon learning that the Madisons were unhappy at being childless, Mellimelli flung his "magical" cloak around Dolley Madison and murmured an incantation that promised she would bear a male child. His conjuring, however, did not work.

Differences in culture and customs stirred interest on both sides. Mellimelli's generous use of scented rose oil was noted by many of those who met him, and guards had to be posted outside his lodgings to turn away the curious. For his part, the Tunisian was surprised at the social freedom women enjoyed in America and was especially intrigued by several delegations of Native Americans from the western territories then visiting Washington. Mellimelli inquired which prophet the Indians followed: Moses, Jesus Christ or Mohammed. When he was told none of them, that they worshiped "the Great Sprit" alone, he was reported to have pronounced them "vile hereticks."

So that's it. Sidi Soliman Mellimelli installed himself for six months at a Washington hotel, for which the American government apparently picked up the tab. And as to that request for "concubines," apparently Jefferson asked the Secretary of State, James Madison, to attend to the matter. It's amusing to note how little the behavior of Muslim and Arab rulers has changed. It is only we who do not see them, or allow ourselves to see them, as primitive and exotic creatures to be amused by or often contemptuous of, but not as creatures to whom we need accord any undo respect, for their sole claim on our attention is that some of them, through an accident of geology, have acquired a lot of money. And there are people in Washington who are happy, in their desire to do well themselves, to convince the American government that it must bend over backwards in treating of Arabs and Muslims. There is no need to do so, and it is easy to show why not. In fact, the description of Mellimelli's requests may put many in mind of how so many Muslim and Arab rulers, including "plucky little king" Hussein of Jordan, when they used to come to Washington, would have round-the-clock escort girls service them in their hotel rooms. But what was most maddening was that the bills were paid by the ever-compliant C.I.A. I presume the oil money has made that, in some cases, no longer necessary.

Sidi Soliman Mellimelli was quite an exotic specimen:

The curious were not to be disappointed by the appearance of the first Muslim envoy to the United States - a large figure with a full dark beard dressed in robes of richly embroidered fabrics and a turban of fine white muslin.

Over the next six months, this exotic representative from a distant and unfamiliar culture would add spice to the Washington social season but also test the diplomatic abilities of President Jefferson.

During the six solar months Mellimelli was here, the lunar month of Ramadan occurred. And as it happens, during that Ramadan observed by Mellimelli, but naturally unobserved, hardly noticed, by the Americans, President Jefferson invited Sidi Soliman Mellimelli for dinner at the White House. He probably during that six-month period had done it more than once. Mellimelli replied that he could not come at the appointed hour of three thirty in the afternoon (our ancestors rose much earlier, and ate much earlier, and went to bed much earlier, in the pre-Edison days of their existence). That time fell, for him, but not for Thomas Jefferson or anyone else in the United States of America, during the fasting period of the month of Ramadan. He replied that he could not come at the hour set, that is, at half-past three, but only after sundown.

Jefferson, a courteous man, simply moved the dinner forward by a few hours. He didn't change the menu, he didn't change anything else. And moving the dinner forward by a few hours hardly turns that dinner into a soi-disant "Iftar Dinner." Barack Obama's trying to do so, trying that is, to rewrite American history, with some nunc-pro-tunc backdating, in order to flatter or please his Muslim guests, is false. And, being false, is also disgusting. It is disgusting for an American President to misrepresent American history to Americans, including all the schoolchildren who are now being subject to all kinds of Islamic propaganda, cunningly woven into the newly-mandated textbooks, that so favorably misrepresent Islam, as here.

Now there is a kind of coda to this dismal tale, and it is provided by the New York Times, which likes to put on airs and think of itself as "the newspaper of record," whatever that means. The Times carried a front-page story on August 14, 2010, written by one Sheryl Gay Stolberg, and no doubt gone over by many vigilant editors. This story contains a predictably glowing account of Barack Obama's remarks at the "Annual Iftar Dinner." Here is the paragraph that caught my eye:

In hosting the iftar, Mr. Obama was following a White House tradition that, while sporadic, dates to Thomas Jefferson, who held a sunset dinner for the first Muslim ambassador to the United States. President George W. Bush hosted iftars annually.

Question for Sheryl Gay Stolberg, and for her editors at The New York Times: You report that there is a "White Hosue tradition that, while sporadic, dates to Thomas Jefferson." I claim that you are wrong. I claim that there is no White House Tradition at all about Iftar Dinners. I claim that Thomas Jefferson, in moving forward by a few hours a dinner that changed in no other respect, for Sidi Soliman Mellimelli, was not providing the first of the "Annual Iftar Dinners" that, the New York Times tells us, has since Jefferson's non-existent "Iftar Dinner," have been observed "sporadically."

When, then, was the next in this long, but "sporadic" series of iftar dinners? I can find no record of any, for roughly the next two hundred years, until we come to the fall of the year 2001, that is, just after the deadliest attack on American civilians ever recorded, an attack carried out by a novemdectet of Muslims acting according to their understanding of the very same texts -- Qur'an,Hadith, Sira -- that all Muslims read, an understanding that many have demonstrated since that they share, not least in the spontaneous celebrations that were immediately held in Cairo, and Riyadh, and Jeddah, and in Ramallah, and Gaza, and Damascus, and Baghdad, and all over the place, where Muslims felt that they had won a victory over those accursed kuffar, those ingrates, those Infidels. And it was President George Bush who decided that, to win Muslim "trust" or to end Muslim "mistrust" -- I forget which -- so that we could, non-Muslim and Muslim, collaborate on defeating those "violent extremists" who had "hijacked a great religion," started this sporadic ball unsporadically rolling. And he did it, by golly, he did. He hosted an Iftar Dinner with all the fixins. It was held just the month after the attacks prompted by Islamic texts and tenets and attitudes on the World Trade Center, on the Pentagon, on a plane's doomed pilots and passengers over a field in Pennsylvania.

And thus it is, that ever since 2001, we have had iftar dinner after iftar dinner. But it was not Jefferson or any other of our cultivated and learned Presidents, who started this "tradition" that has been observed only "sporadically" -- i.e., never -- until George Bush came along, unless we are to count as an "iftar dinner" what was merely seen, by Jefferson, as a dinner given at a time convenient for his not-too-honored guest.

Yes, and how splendidly Bush, and now Obama, have proven to Muslims that there are no hard feelings. Do you think the three trillion dollars spent in Iraq and now in Afghanistan (not counting the hundreds of billions that, over time, have gone to Pakistan, Egypt, Jordan, even the "Palestinian" territories), have done that? It has all been designed to improve the lot of Muslims on the unproven assumption that this will make them less attentive to the texts, the ideology, of their Total Belief-System, and hence more willing to grandly concede to us Infidels a territory of our own, a place in the sun of our own. Yes, George Bush, that profound student of history and of ideas, kept telling us, in those first few months after 9/11/2001, that as far as he was concerned, by gum, Islam was a religion of "peace and tolerance." And just to prove it, by golly, he'd put on an Iftar Dinner with all the fixins. And that's just what he did. And that's how the "tradition" that Sheryl Gay Stolberg, and her many vetting editors at the newspaper of comical record, The New York Times, began. It's all of nine years old, through the disastrous presidencies of Bush and now of Obama.

And stop rewriting history, in ways little and big, about the American "connection" to Islam - including that absurd attempt on the front page of The New York Times just yesterday, to run a story on Christians from the Middle East, fleeing Islam and Muslims for the United States (as they fled, too, to South America, or to Australia) and appropriating the history of Arabic-speaking Maronite and Orthodox immigrants in that story on "Little Syria" to make American readers think that "see, Arabs, Muslim Arabs, go a long way back in New York City, so let's not get so hot and bothered about a little mosque someone wants to build." Was there ever such deceit, day after day, than in the way The New York Times has become a willing collaborator with the O.I.C., and others who want nonstop Mister Feelgood stories about Islam in America?

I have a request for The New York Times. It's a most modest one. All I ask -- I never ask, or expect, very much -- is that the editors of The New York Times apologize for that paper's misapplication of the adjective "sporadic" in the front-page story by Sheryl Stolberg on the "Annual Iftar" dinner.

Put up, or shut up, dear newspaper of record. Tell us when that "tradition" of "Iftar Dinners" truly began. Cite those Presidents who held dinners that they considered to be "Iftar Dinners." Give us chapter, give us verse. And if, as I believe, that hollow and recent and transparently determined-to-win-Muslim-hearts-and-minds "tradition" began in 2001, then tell us. And since your story was on the front page, do what the lawyers do when they have to make legal announcements, and put your retraction, eat your humble pie, right on the front page.

A failure to do so will be further, and for some the final confirmation, of the sorry record of The New York Times in its coverage of Islam. Most readers with some sense of what Islam is all about, even those who lack detailed knowledge, are now ready to take any coverage of the matter in The New York Times with a grain - with a Pinch - of salt.

Clio, Muse of History, is a stern mistress. Subscribers to stories that live and die between editions may forget or forgive, but Mnemosyne does neither. If I were the "newspaper of record," I'd want to propitiate not the gods, but the most vigilant and meticulous of muses. If I were Pinch Sulzberger, I'd be mortally embarrassed, and determined to make amends. But then, I have standards.

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Nothing short of this will be expected from the followers of Islam. Lying and taqiyya go hand in hand towards spreading the
lies of Islam. Next we will hear Muslims were here loooooong before Columbus ever set his feet on this land. Anybody who bows to the Saudi king will not only believe Jefferson hosted Iftar dinner but also Muslims were here first!!1

OT: I am posting this around on pro-Israel sites. It is too important to overlook. I wonder if there is any truth to this story. I got it from a friend living in Samaria, Israel. If it is, it is pretty darned disgusting. James Baker is a vicious anti-Semite; he and Jeremiah Wright.

James “F— The Jews” Baker Now Romney Foreign Policy Adviser (Along w/ Other Israel-Haters)

http://www.debbieschlussel.com/52181/james-f-the-...

As far as know Dubya started this unfortunate vent right after 9/11. No other president did it before him.

Yeah, Obama knows about as much American History as you would expect of a Kenyan born muslim.

HERE IS THE REAL DEAL; HOW MANY OF YOU KNOW THIS?

Thomas Jefferson kept a copy of the koran in the White House for 2 reasons:

1) When the Jeffersons ran out of toilet paper.

2) He followed the rule "Know Thine Enemy". At the time, American interests were being made victim of "The Pirates of Tripoli". These were not the Johnny Depp style pirates, nor the "Yo Ho Ho and a Bottle of Rum" style pirates. They were the same islamic scum we deal with today.

NOT THESE GUYS:

http://www.moviefone.com/movie/pirates-of-the-caribbean-on-stranger-tides/30124/main?flv=1

I expect the left and especially Obama (given his background) to lie about Islam. I don't expect, nor should we tolerate, conservatives lying about Islam. For seven years following the 9/11 attacks, conservatives and Republicans carried Bush's water in spite of his repeated and egregious lies about Islam and Israel. Only now they found their voice with Obama. What happens if Romney is elected president? Will he bring Israel-haters like James Baker and Condoleezza Rice in to advise him? Will conservatives paper over his lies like they did for Bush? I read Spencer's piece this morning on Frontpagemag about Governor Chris Christie's associations with jihadists. I don't know how many times I heard Limbaugh and his callers mention Christie as a possible VP for Romney. Is Limbaugh totally uniformed? I wonder why his friend Andrew McCarthy doesn't bring him up to speed.

The blatant promotion Of Islam by Obama is truly sickening, promoted as it is with lies.

I was having a look at the Curiosity pictures and lo and behold what do I see under "Women of NASA" but a hijab covered picture. She is the emblem of the "Women of NASA", one Tahani Amer, a woman born in Egypt.

On following her page I learned that she did something with NASA in her college years, in 1991. This is what she says:

"I spoke on the topic of Women in Islam during the Peace week at Old Dominion University in 2011, and I was a guest speaker at the Annual Luncheon for the Virginia Space Grant Consortium (VSGC) to state representatives, university presidents, and new students. ..I am also involved in mosque programs for teaching Islamic rules and Arabic to young children. After September 11, I contributed to my community in Hampton Roads, Va., by helping to educate and fill the gap that many Americans have in understanding the religion of Islam. I have given lectures in many churches, universities, and local school systems. I was even interviewed by the local newspaper on this topic."

Hmm of all the "Women of NASA" and there are a few, she has been chosen to be the emblem. I wonder how many others speak about understanding the religion of Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism or Hinduism and put it on their profile?

I think Repubs are just as ignorant of Islam as are the Dems and to top it off they both fall victim to the PC trap of false victimhood of Muslims if anybody tells truth about them and Islam.I only hope that if Romney is elected he cleans out the Islamists(aka Muslims) from the administration and The State Dept. If that happens it will be a first step towards bringing this government to the right center. If this large proportion of Muslims in the present administration is not thrown out, they will continue to tilt the policies of the administration towards Islam centric policies. Let's hope it doesn't happen!1

I understand your concern wildjew, but the remaining candidates in the current two-party U.S. system leaves us but one viable choice.

There must be something physically wrong with the operation of the brains of people who have so little respect for history that they would change it as needed to pursue an ideology "for the greater good."
Does Obama think he is a Mustapha Mond, as in Brave New World, manipulating us "little people", or is he really intentionally, cynically manipulating just those people he needs to, in order to have a majority vote for him? As we know, the average IQ is a mere 98 in the US; its not hard to manipulate syncophantic fools, which seems to be Obama's forte.

hussein displays a continuous and increasing penchant for lies, that is becoming unimaginable, in degree and frequency. As has been said “if he opens his mouth, he lies”

Jefferson studied the enemy, islam, muslims, as he well became familiar, before he and others commissioned and sent a Navy and Marines to Tripoli, to devastate them, to stop the muslim pirate marauders, and their mullah from attacking our merchant trader ships, and kidnapping and enslaving our crews.

In all of history, one matter that was never to occur, was Jefferson hosting any muslim related dinner, ever. Yes, as a cordial host, and with the gentility of the day and office of the time, he might host a temporary envoy, but certainly not as a paean to mohammadanism, as it was likely known at the time. He was like many brilliant learned men of the time, not perfect personally, but brilliant in the service of man and Freedom, not to be deceived by an evil gang of thugs, so contrary to the principles of his visceral being, as was well displayed in the Jefferson’s koran war manual. As Hugh and Robert so ably and articulately write above, see them for the real details of this episode of the hussein charade.

hussein on the other hand, well understands taqiyyah, spent his formative days at being coached by America haters, starting off as a muslim in Indonesia, from radicals, to hate America pseudo preachers, to corrupted individuals, almost continuously, all with hatred of America on their minds. He seemed to have no reluctance to believe it was fine to allude, in an auto-biography that he did cocaine and pot, certainly no example of setting a good example there, nor illustrative of Presidential material.

He has been listed as an Indonesian citizen on a website until recently, not an American. And for some unknown reason has spent millions of dollars, while being a $10,000,000 worth person, to seal every record of his past that he could seal, and it is alleged with demonstrated reasons, to have a highly doubtful birth certificate, SSN and draft registration, as well. Sneaking and duplicity is indicated as his way.

The insult to America, of stating that a Jefferson, who launched an American military attack on islamic pirates, who were directly acting on islamic excuses of their gang’s koran war manual would have hosted an honorary dinner for his enemy, is both absurd, and ludicrous, and reveals the low nature of the ruling class of hussein, the dregs of nature and desperation of his mind, as a supporter and supplicant of his islam.

This is a clear attempt to fool more Americans, into thinking muslims have been here since the beginning, and thereby sneak by more excuse for their being here, and that they counted for something, which is 100% false. They counted for nothing, except a serious problem and being worthy of and deserved military attack.

This was a religiously oriented, principled people, virtually all Judeo-Christian in orientation. Certainly some did not show they were fervent at their religious conviction, but were Deists, rather less embracing to all the diverse details of any specific denomination.

So ludicrous is hussein, is the fact that there didn’t exist enough muslims if any existed in America, to find enough to exist at a dinner, save one temporary Tunis type, and in typical muslim character, at that! The very idea is completely laughable, at every angle and consideration. Muslim’s were not on the domestic American radar of the mind, especially Jefferson’s mind, except as an enemy, fruitcake!

hussein is getting to be a dangerous joke (dangerous because some people have little discrimination or education, especially in history, and are gullible enough to take your words as truth, instead of the lies you meant), but you certainly illustrate the teachable moment, alright, of illustrating the famous quote, attributed to a true hero, (except that hussein, you can’t learn it, and quit):

You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you cannot fool all of the people all of the time.
Abraham Lincoln, (attributed)
16th president of US (1809 - 1865)

You are right. Like I told a friend who is critical of Romney:

"I have a choice between a Mormon and (I believe) a crypto-Muslim with deep sympathies for the world of Islam come November. Neither one are, in all likelihood "good" for Israel so it comes down to who is better for the American economy. You think Obama-Biden are better. I suspect Romney-Ryan will be better for my interests. For now I am an American and I have to look out for what I think are in my best interests."

Are you Wildjew or stupid Jew? The choice is between Romney and Obama. Do you want another 4 years of Obama?

Are you Wildjew or stupid Jew? The choice is between Romney and Obama. Do you want another 4 years of Obama?

You "think Republicans are just as ignorant of Islam as are the Dems and to top it off they both fall victim to the PC trap of false victimhood of Muslims if anybody tells truth about them and Islam."

It's just my opinion. I disagree. Most leftists / Democrats I try to reason with are "true believers." Convincing them would be like trying to convince a Baal or Molech worshiper Baal or Molech isn't God.

I think most Republicans / conservatives (especially by now) know the truth but they are cowards. You can't convince me these giants in the conservative movement are completely in the dark about Islam. I know they are reading this and other similar sites. What you are saying would be akin to Germans did not know the Nazis hated Jews.


So eager is Obama to please his muslim masters in Saudi Arabia that he would perpetuate this iftaar myth of being tradition from Jefferson times.

It was not in any way an iftaar dinner it’s like saying if you eat after sundown on the day of iftaar you are honoring islam, that pure poppycock. Jefferson did not fast for this, he did not break any fast by eating the 3 dates, he was not a muslim, he did not honor islam or muhammed or allah in any way. All he did was put off eating until after sunset to make his guest happy.

That was the extant of this so called iftaar dinner

I believe Rich, the reason we have this nightmare in the White House is largely because foolish people like you (perhaps?) who carried George W. Bush's water for seven long years post 9/11, even as he repeatedly lied about Islam and Israel. I have been planning on voting for Romney. I hope this report is a false one. Don't you?

I'm not going to join you in your folly Rich of white washing wrong doing. If it is true (and I cannot say it is yet) that Romney has embraced James (f%$# the Jews...) Baker as an adviser on the Middle East, I will not be silent Rich; unlike you apparently.

Romney's feet need to held to the fire on Islam and Israel! Yes or no? I don't want a repeat performance of Bush. Do you? While Romney did better in Jerusalem, I watched Mitt Romney rebuke Gingrich in the December 10, 2011 Iowa debate when he (Gingrich) told the truth about the Palestinian jihadists. Romney essentially took the side of the jihadists. There is no middle ground Rich. Like Bush said (which he soon violated), "Either you are with us or you are with the (Muslim) terrorists."

So which is it Rich?

“…that it was founded on the Laws of their Prophet, that it was written in their Koran, that all nations who should not have acknowledged their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon them wherever they could be found and to make slaves of all they could take as prisoners, and that every Musselman who should be slain in battle was sure to go to Paradise.”
Report written by Thomas Jefferson and John Adams.
http://crossmuslims.blogspot.com/2010/12/perfect-man-of-islam.html

Stay with me Rich. Don't go away.

Just for the record Rich, yours is the same kind of (as Chris Christie) put it "crap" that self-professed conservatives parroted when the governor of Texas was exposed for his questionable associations and activities related to Islam, as well as white washing its history.

It's a disgrace hosting a dinner in WH for these people. Did Churchill put on a dinner at No 10 for the Nazi Party on the eve of WW2? Did Reagan invite the Politburo to tea?

I am not aware of what Romney said about the Palestinian Jihadists. Can you provide a transcript of your words.

PS There are Palestinian Jihadists and just Palestinians. I am not in favour of Jewish extremists killing Palestinians either.

The best solution would be for both Jews and Muslims to abandon their respective supremacist and violent religions and embrace humanity instead. The answer is education. Jews being more educated than Palestinians are already doing so in larger numbers.

The main thing about Romney is that he has said he will not allow an Iranian Nuclear Bomb, which they have a high probability of using against Israel. Obama will. You have to be really stupid not to realise that.

I am not aware of what Romney said about the Palestinian Jihadists. Can you provide a transcript of your words.

PS There are Palestinian Jihadists and just Palestinians. I am not in favour of Jewish extremists killing Palestinians either.

The best solution would be for both Jews and Muslims to abandon their respective supremacist and violent religions and embrace humanity instead. The answer is education. Jews being more educated than Palestinians are already doing so in larger numbers.

The main thing about Romney is that he has said he will not allow an Iranian Nuclear Bomb, which they have a high probability of using against Israel. Obama will. You have to be really stupid not to realise that.

Listen Imam Hussain. I don't give a fuck if the Tunisian leader blew his host. The people of America don't believe you and don't want islam. They don't believe you because you are a habitual liar and they don't want islam because it is a primitive shit hole ideology.

His words I mean

Sure. Here is part of the transcript of the debate. The parenthetical notations are mine:

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS: 22:05:09:00 Governor Romney, (APPLAUSE) you just heard the Speaker say he was just telling the truth. Do you take any issue with that characterization of the Palestinians as an invented people?

GOVERNOR MITT ROMNEY: 22:05:22:00 I-- I happen to agree with-- with most of what the speaker said, except by going down and saying the Palestinians are an invented people. That I think was a mistake on the speaker's part. I-- I think-- you-- you-- I think the speaker would probably suggest that as well. I-- I don't think we want to--

22:05:35:00 (SPEAKER NEWT GINGRICH: UNINTELLIGIBLE)

GOVERNOR MITT ROMNEY: Maybe not. I-- (LAUGHTER) I think we're very wise to stand with our friends, Israel, and not get out ahead of them.

Romney: 22:05:51:00 They-- Israel does not want us to make it more difficult for them to sit down with the Palestinians (i.e., the terrorists - wildjew).

SPEAKER NEWT GINGRICH: 22:07:42:00 I feel quite confident an amazing number of Israelis found it nice to have an American tell the truth about the war they are in the middle of and the casualties they're taking and the people who surround them who say, "You do not have the right to exist, and we want to destroy you."

Romney: 22:08:29:00 And I'm president of the United States, I will exercise sobriety, care, stability. And make sure that in a setting like this, anything I say that can affect a place with-- with rockets going in, with people dying, I don't do anything that would harm that-- that ("peace"?) process....

His words I mean

Nothing wrong in what he said. They are not an invented people. They are the people who live in Palestine. Call them what you will - they are humans with rights too. Or do you think only Jews have rights to that land?

You say: "There are Palestinian Jihadists and just Palestinians. I am not in favour of Jewish extremists killing Palestinians either..."

I'm not saying there aren't some Palestinians (just as there were Germans in the nineteen thirties and forties) that do not hate Jews and do not want to destroy Israel but there is a culture of death and hatred pervasive in the Muslim world and largely in the Palestinian Muslim world. Majorities of Palestinians when polled support suicide bombings of innocent Jews. In the January 2006 elections the Palestinians elected Hamas jihadists to govern them in what Bush and Rice called open, fair and free elections.

"The best solution would be for both Jews and Muslims to abandon their respective supremacist and violent religions and embrace humanity instead. The answer is education. Jews being more educated than Palestinians are already doing so in larger numbers."

I don't see any supremacism in the Jewish faith. If there are Jewish supremacists I don't know them nor do I want to associate with them. I know several Jewish "settlers" who live in Biblical Judea and Samaria. None of them are supremacists.

You wrote: "The main thing about Romney is that he has said he will not allow an Iranian Nuclear Bomb, which they have a high probability of using against Israel. Obama will. You have to be really stupid not to realise that...."

Romney I believe is better than Obama but you have to keep in mind, Romney is courting his pro-Israel, largely conservative Christian base as well as some wealthy Jewish donors. Obama said he would not allow Iran to obtain a nuclear weapon. What a politician says and what he does when in office are often two different things. George W. Bush pressure Israel to not attack Iran's nuclear sites. Unlike Obama I do not believe either Bush or Romney viscerally detest Israel or Israel's Jews - I saw Bush as largely callous to bloody suicide bombings, more so prior to 9/11. I expect better from "my" side than what I saw during the Bush years, especially in light of the fact he claimed to be a born-again Christian.

Nothing wrong in what he said. They are not an invented people. They are the people who live in Palestine. Call them what you will - they are humans with rights too. Or do you think only Jews have rights to that land?

Romney: "Israel does not want us to make it more difficult for them to sit down with the Palestinians (i.e., what Gingrich just called terrorists)."

Why would Romney assume Israel does not want us to make it more difficult for them to sit down with mass-murderers? To me that would be like Putin saying, "We don't want to make it more difficult for the Bush administration to sit down with al-Qaeda or bin Laden."

Romney: 22:08:29:00 And I'm president of the United States, I will exercise sobriety, care, stability. And make sure that in a setting like this, anything I say that can affect a place with-- with rockets going in, with people dying, I don't do anything that would harm that-- that ("peace"?) process...."

That means Romney supports this phony peace process with genocidal peoples. Not only that, Romney is saying "truth-telling" is the same as "bomb throwing." Romney would rather exercise mealy-mouthed sobriety, care and stability rather than speak the truth about these killers and what Israel faces on a daily basis.

Like the late Ayatollah Khomeini said: "I spit upon those who say Islam is peaceful!"

Do you believe the nineteen September hijackers who slit the throats of the flight attendants and the pilots and flew those planes into the World Trade Center towers and the Pentagon were humans with rights too?

wildjew get over yourself. Romney is a politician. I dont understand the tortured explanation you have manufactured. I think you are just miffed that he doesnt have you as his spokesman. "I'll just keep quiet. Let this idiot, who calls himself wildjew, speak for me, he can just spew his hate and ensure thereby that I dont get elected".

I dont have the shadow of a doubt that Romney will work with Israel against anyone who wants to destroy it.

wildjew get over yourself. Romney is a politician. I dont understand the tortured explanation you have manufactured. I think you are just miffed that he doesnt have you as his spokesman. "I'll just keep quiet. Let this idiot, who calls himself wildjew, speak for me, he can just spew his hate and ensure thereby that I dont get elected".

I dont have the shadow of a doubt that Romney will work with Israel against anyone who wants to destroy it.

Are you asking me? Of course not. But Palestinians living on their land do. Just because these Muslim Saudis were mass murderers doesnt deprive the Palestinians of their rights.

Are you asking me? Of course not. But Palestinians living on their land do. Just because these Muslim Saudis were mass murderers doesnt deprive the Palestinians of their rights.

Just remember, wildjew, whatever Romney knows or doesn't know about Islam, he is far more likely to appoint judges who will be far less likely to sell America down the river to Islam's nefarious designs than would the Anointed One.

Gotta' keep your eye on the ball. See the bigger picture and all that. One step at a time.

I understand Romney is a politician. So is Obama. I have been strongly inclined to vote for Romney - not because I like him or trust him - but because he is not Obama, whom I consider destructive, evil and dangerous. I want Romney to do the right thing. Why shouldn't I?

What you appear to be saying is, because Romney is a politician we don't need to hold him accountable for any lies he has told nor for lies he might possibly continue to propagate about Islam and Israel; because he is a politician we should remain silent when he does bad things and when he lies about our enemies. Am I reading you correctly?

Rich has a learning disability. Double post, three times. Would it matter if I were to explain why? When you hit post, please walk away for a minute or so until the page has reloaded. Don't go back and hit post again on the same comment.

Jews are benign at worst, unlike local or remote citizens of the Islamic Ummah. I can ignore a Jew. Who would refuse to be ignored?

I hear you Wellington but unlike what I did with Bush for nearly four years, I will not repeat the mistake with a President Romney. If he behaves honorably, I will be his strongest supporter but I hope to not remain silent if he lies like Bush did only to avoid "stupid Jew" insults from Rich and others. I don't agree with those who warn me not to say anything unpleasant about Romney because Obama is worse. The worst thing you can do is remain silent when a politician is doing something bad and you know he is doing bad. If Baker has his ear (I don't know how reliable Schlussel is; I think she's been known to be wrong in the past) then his supporters should warn him to not go there. Baker is bad news. Did you know then board member, James Baker was at the annual Carlyle meeting with Shafiq bin Laden (Osama bin Laden's brother) at the Ritz Carlton on 9/11? Former CIA operative Robert Baer wrote about it (among others) in his book "Sleeping With The Devil." Since then Baer went off the deep end on Iran. Baker's law firm (Baker-Botts) is representing Saudi royals against families of the victims of 9/11. Baker is a LOW LIFE.

Bush punked out and fell under Allah's spell, coining 'The Religion of Peace' lie Holding iftar dinners, and praying in a mosque...
Iftar dinners is where our high officials celebrate our enemies and play kiss face, or lower...Sickening and disgusting...

I read Hugh's piece before so ...Thumbs up Hugh, where ever you are...

Rich, you are mistaken. There is no Palestinian people nor Palestinian land. All that is a false history created after 1967 as a political construct designed to demonize and ultimately destroy Israel and the Jews. I have asked this question before and I have yet to get a correct answer, and if you can answer it then I will retract everything I say about "Palestine" Show us any archaeological ruins identified as ancient Palestinian. Show us any coin, money, government papers, regional or national governments, known poets or writers of the last 500 years, show any item that archaeologists have proved is from an ancient Palestinian people. There is none...."Palestinian" is Arab, plain and simple. There are Arab towns and Arab areas within what is now Israel, but there are not now, nor have there ever been a "Palestinian people" The land they want to call Palestine is most of what is now Jordan and a small slice of southwest Syria. That is their home, not Israel. Give it up, Rich and join the 21st century thinkers. Israel is not the enemy, Islam is.

" Just because these Muslim Saudis were mass murderers doesnt deprive the Palestinians of their rights."

Just because muslims are claiming land wherever they are (see Assam, Burma, India, Africa and EUrabia) doesn't mean they don't have rights?

By the right of allah all the land belongs to Islam. Mohammedans, and that includes the Fakestinians, already have 57 nations under their control.

There will be more shortly. Smell the coffee, Rich.

Read and learn.

" Just because these Muslim Saudis were mass murderers doesnt deprive the Palestinians of their rights."

Just because muslims are claiming land wherever they are (see Assam, Burma, India, Africa and EUrabia) doesn't mean they don't have rights?

By the right of allah all the land belongs to Islam. Mohammedans, and that includes the Fakestinians, already have 57 nations under their control.

There will be more shortly. Smell the coffee, Rich.

Read and learn.

I have no argument with you, wildjew. Romney needs to demonstrate backbone once President.

And yeah, I'm not the biggest James Baker fan around. He doesn't get the Middle East in the best way one can get it, to wit, Israel is the front line in the fight against Islamic barbarism.

I would, however, respectfully suggest to you or to anyone who sees that Romney is almost infinitely preferable to Obama not to say anything negative about the guy until AFTER the election. No real upside to doing so.

Rich,

What are you talking about?

The following are some essential facts of the history of the situation.

O The British Mandate of Palestine included what is now Jordan.
O There were more Jewish refugees from Muslim states than there were Arab refugees from Israel.
O All of those refugees -- Jewish and Arab -- were caused by a self-declared intendedly genocidal "Jihad" attack on Israel by Muslim Arab states in 1948.
O Jordan occupied Judea (Yehouda) and Sameria (Shomron) from 1949 to 1967, and Jordan renamed Judea and Sameria to the name "The West Bank" -- referring to Judea and Sameria as "the west bank" of the Jordan river.
O Egypt occupied what is now called "The Gaza Strip" from 1949 until 1967.
O Between the years 1949 and 1967, the leaders of Muslim Arab states, and the leaders of what, in the 1960's, came to be called the 'Palestinian movement', made no effort to establish any so-called 'Palestinian' Arab state in what Jordan renamed to the name "The West Bank" and in what is now called "The Gaza Strip"; and the PLO Charter, from the time of the founding of the PLO in 1964 until 1968, stated that what had then come to be called "The West Bank", and which is now called "The West Bank", and what had then come to be called "The Gaza Strip", and which is now called "The Gaza Strip", was not part of what the PLO Charter called "the Zionist" "occupation" of "Palestine".
O The founder of the 'Palestinian movement', and preceptor of Yasser Arafat, Haj Amin al-Husseini, was an adjoined official of the Nazi regime of Germany and was a co-architect of the Nazi "Final Solution".

O The word "Palestine" is the English spelling and pronunciation of the word "Falastina" which is what the European people the Romans renamed the country (Judea (Yehouda)) of the Jewish (Yehoudi) people soon after the Romans committed genocide against the Jewish people and destroyed Judea. After the Romans committed genocide against the Jewish people and destroyed Judea, the Romans renamed Judea (Yehouda), and neighboring Sameria (Shomron), to the name "Falastina" in reference to the sea-faring then-extinct Greco people the Philistines, who, several hundred years earlier, had attacked and invaded the country of the Jewish people. At the time when the Philistines attacked the country of the Jewish people, the country of the Jewish people was divided, from the original country of the Jewish people, Israel (Yisrael), into two kingdoms - Yehouda and Yisrael. Some time after the Philistines attacked the country of the Jewish people, the country of the Jewish people diminished into only Yehouda. Sameria (Shomron) had been part of the original country of the Jewish people, Israel (Yisrael). Until 1948, the term "Palestinian" was a term that was used only by European people only to refer to Jewish people who were living in the area of land that the Romans renamed to "Falastina" and which English-speaking Europeans subsequently called "Palestine".
O The area of land that the Romans renamed to "Falastina" and which English-speaking Europeans called "Palestine" was, for several hundred years, until 1917, part of Islamic Ottoman Turkey.
O In 1917, during World War I, Britain took, from Germany-allied Islamic Ottoman Turkey, the area of land that was constituted by what is now Jordan, and by what is now Israel, and by what is now called "The West Bank" (Yehouda (Judea) and Shomron (Sameria))), and by what is now called "The Gaza Strip".
O In 1920, Britain named that area of land The British Mandate of Palestine.
O British officials created the Arab state of Transjordan in The British Mandate of Palestine between 1922 and 1924.
O In 1946, Britain granted autonomy to Transjordan, and Transjordan was renamed Jordan.
O Jewish leaders in the British Mandate of Palestine accepted the 1947 partition plan and every other earlier similar proposition for the creation of one Arab state in, and one Jewish state in, the part of the British Mandate of Palestine which did not become Jordan. The Arab leaders in the Middle East refused the 1947 partition plan and every other earlier similar proposition for the creation of one Arab state in, and one Jewish state in, the part of the British Mandate of Palestine which did not become Jordan.

O The Jewish refugees from Muslim states in the Middle East found refuge in Israel and in other countries. The Jewish refugees from Muslim states in the Middle East who found refuge in Israel became citizens of Israel, and the still living members of, and the descendants of, those Jewish refugees from Muslim states are citizens of Israel and constitute approximately fifty percent of the Jewish population of Israel, and refer to themselves as Mizrahi, which means "Eastern" in Hebrew.
O The Arab refugees from the 1948 Muslim Arab attack on Israel, and the descendants of the Arab refugees from the Muslim Arab attack on Israel, began to be called the 'Palestinian' Arab refugees in the 1960's, and the still living members of, and the currently several million descendants of, those Arab refugees from the 1948 Muslim Arab attack on Israel have come to now even be called 'the Palestinians', and do not live in Israel, and are not citizens of Israel, and live in what is now called "The West Bank", which is governed by Fatah-PLO-PalestinianAuthority, and in what is now called "The Gaza Strip", which is governed by Hamas, and in refugee camps in Muslim Arab states, and have been kept as refugees for over sixty years by Muslim Arab leaders and by the leaders of Western countries.
O There have been tens of millions of refugees since the end of World War II, almost all of whom have been relocated to, and absorbed into, the countries to which they fled or were expelled -- such as several million ethnically German people who lived in the Sudetenland of Czechoslovakia (Sudeten Germans) who, immediately after World War II, were expelled from the Sudetenland of Czechoslovakia, and who, subsequently, were relocated to, and absorbed into, Germany.
O The still living members of, and the descendants of, the Arab people who did not flee from Israel immediately before, nor during, the 1948 Muslim Arab attack on Israel, and who were not among the few Arab people who were expelled from Israel during the 1948 Muslim Arab attack on Israel, live in Israel, and are citizens of Israel, and constitute approximately twenty percent of the population of Israel, and approximately eighty percent of them are Muslim, and approximately twenty percent of them are, in some cases, Christian, and, in other cases, Druze.
O All citizens of Israel have equal civil rights by the law in Israel, and are granted equal protection under the law in Israel.
O Anyone who is deemed to be Jewish -- by ethnicity, or by religion -- by the government of Israel can be automatically granted citizenship of Israel. This automatic granting of citizenship, by Israel, to people who are Jewish is similar to the automatic granting of citizenship, by other democratic countries, such as Japan, and some European countries, to people whose ethnicities, or whose parents' nationalities, are those of the nationalities of those democratic countries.
O Anyone, whether or not they are Jewish, can apply for, and be granted, citizenship of Israel, in the same way that anyone can apply for, and be granted, citizenship of other democratic countries.
O Israel is the nation of the Jewish people. Just like Ireland is the nation of the Irish people. And just like Japan is the nation of the Japanese people. And just like Italy is the nation of the Italian people. And just like Thailand is the nation of the Thai people. Israel is, therein, the Jewish state. Just like Ireland is the Irish state. And just like Japan is the Japanese state. And just like Italy is the Italian state. And just like Thailand is the Thai state.
O There are over twenty Arab states in the world. There are fifty-six Muslim states in the world. There are several officially Christian states in the world. There are many national states in the world: Thailand, Japan, over 20 Arab states, several European states, etc.
O There is only one Jewish state in the world: Israel.
O The land area of Israel is approximately two percent of the total land area of the Middle East.

Israel is a liberal democratic country, and is the sole country of the Jewish people, and is a very small country, and has been under intendedly genocidal siege since it was officially re-founded in 1948.

The 'Palestinian movement' is a racist ideologically intendedly genocidal anti-Jewish political movement which was founded to prevent the re-founding of the nation of the Jewish people, and was founded by a co-architect of the Nazi 'Final Solution', and has come to be the core propagandic strategically pivotal part of the Islamic supremacist political movement. The 'Palestinian movement' is a huge racist ideologically intendedly genocidal anti-Jewish hoax.

The Jewish leaders of the government of Israel, as a result of their experiencing Stockholm syndrome, have acquiecingly accepted and propagated and furthered this hoax in an effort to end the Islamic Jihad that, for over ninety years, has been waged against the re-founding of, and, subsequently, against the existence of, the nation of the Jewish people.

The members of the U.S. State Department, and senior members of the C.I.A., and the members of U.S. government administrations, out of culturally deeply engrained Western anti-Jewish racism, and out of greed for petroleum trade with Muslim states in the Middle East, have been supporting the 'Palestinian movement' and have been working to undermine, and, in some cases, to destroy, Israel.

The members of the Western mass-media, and Western academics, and Western political activists, etc., out of culturally deeply engrained (and, therein, invisible-to-themselves) Western anti-Jewish racism (and, in the case of those of them who are Jewish, out of Jewish Stockholm syndrome), have been, with verbal and visual lies of omission, and with verbal and visual blatant lies, libeling Israel and obfuscating the actions of, and the nature of, the members of the organizations of the 'Palestinian movement', and have been obfuscating the actions of, and the nature of, and even the existence of, the adherents of the global larger Islamic supremacist political movement.

----

wildjew,

Rich, in his comments has "shown his cards" -- the anti-Jewish bigotry that he holds -- manifested, in part, in belief that he has expressed that he holds in the now mass-propagated huge perverse lies that vilify Israel.

I realize that so-called "Conservatives" are not inherently any more true friends to the Jewish people than are contemporary so-called "Liberals".

For the past over sixty years, it has been mainly members of the "Right-Wing" governing social class of the U.S. who have been engaged in a malicious racist intendedly lethal campaign of deceitful diplomacy and espionage and propaganda against the newly-re-founded, intendedly genocidally besieged, liberal democratic, very small sole nation of the Jewish people.

I realize that the Jewish people have very few actual true friends in the culturally Christian-European -- Christian and formerly Christian -- world. Culturally Christian-European -- Christian and formerly Christian -- society is an inherently bigoted-anti-Jewish society.

Although, Americans (non-Jewish Americans), in general, are the least bigoted-anti-Jewish non-Jewish Western people (culturally Christian-European -- Christian and post-Christian - people) in the world.

Jewish people need to start to stand up for themselves like normal human beings, and need to not "count on" support from people who they "think" are their friends.

I appreciate your standing up for yourself and for your own universally libeled mortally endangered people -- a people of whom I have also been born a member in my current birth.

If people who you think are your friends will stand up for you and defend you, then good.

But what needs to be done is to tell the truth, and to join with good people -- people who are decent (intelligent and aware -- and therefore understanding and kind) -- regardless of what they view their political affiliation as being and regardless of what oneself may view their political affiliation as being.

Thank you for standing up for yourself and for the Jewish people.

----

oregonjake,

Thank you.

Although you weren't addressing me in your rhetorical question about the nineteen 9/11 hijackers, I will say this.

Yes, those 19 were human beings.

The laws of God--including the law that we must respect our neighbor's life--are there to protect sinners from each other; not to prove how good and righteous we are in and of ourselves.

I never said Israel is the enemy.But your statement "There is no Palestinian people nor Palestinian land. All that is a false history created after 1967 as a political construct designed to demonize and ultimately destroy Israel and the Jews." is clearly false.

I support Israel not because ""There is no Palestinian people nor Palestinian land." but because seeing their history (of their creation in the last century) they have a legitimate right to exist, which the Arabs and Muslims deny.

You weaken your case when you believe or support a lie.

This was Palestine at the time of Saul 1020 BC

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7b/Palestine_1020BC_Smith_1915.jpg

In 132 AD, Hadrian joined the province of Judaea with Galilee to form new province of Syria Palaestina and the British ruled Palestine under the Palestine Mandate from 1922 till 1948.

People lived there, Muslims, Christians and a few Jews and they can be called Palestinians.

I never said Israel is the enemy.But your statement "There is no Palestinian people nor Palestinian land. All that is a false history created after 1967 as a political construct designed to demonize and ultimately destroy Israel and the Jews." is clearly false.

I support Israel not because ""There is no Palestinian people nor Palestinian land." but because seeing their history (of their creation in the last century) they have a legitimate right to exist, which the Arabs and Muslims deny.

You weaken your case when you believe or support a lie.

This was Palestine at the time of Saul 1020 BC

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7b/Palestine_1020BC_Smith_1915.jpg

In 132 AD, Hadrian joined the province of Judaea with Galilee to form new province of Syria Palaestina and the British ruled Palestine under the Palestine Mandate from 1922 till 1948.

People lived there, Muslims, Christians and a few Jews and they can be called Palestinians.

As for me, though I love America, and its promise and potential, I would live an eternity happily under a Jewish state, than the eternity spent in but a moment, under an islamic state!

I hope that makes clear that my heart and soul is allied with Israel, and our heritage, Judaism.

You wrote: "Yes, those 19 were human beings.

The laws of God--including the law that we must respect our neighbor's life--are there to protect sinners from each other; not to prove how good and righteous we are in and of ourselves...."

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I am not sure I agree with you that the September hijackers are "human beings" in God's eyes. From time to time, when there is a horribly brutal murder, I read a rabbi who says the murderer is not even human. He is an animal. He is a savage. He lacks any divine spark, etc. I think that rings true from the words in the Torah itself. People can behave like savages, like animals and be sub-human in the eyes of God in my opinion. You say we should respect our "neighbor's" life but who is my neighbor? Is my enemy who is dedicated to my annihilation and the annihilation of my people my neighbor or my enemy?

Rich, there was no "Palestine" in the time of King Saul. It was called Israel. When did the Romans rename Israel, Philistia or Palestina, after the hated Philistines? Sometime after 132 or 135 CE or AD?

Rich,

The map that you listed ( http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7b/Palestine_1020BC_Smith_1915.jpg ) is a map of the area of land which, at one time, was Caanan, and which subsequently became Israel (Yisrael), and which subsequently split into two kingdoms -- Judea (Yehouda) and Israel (Yisrael) -- and which subsequently was attacked and invaded by the sea-faring Greco people the Philistines, who subsequently became extinct.

After the sea-faring Greco people the Philistines became extinct, the European people the Romans conquered and occupied the remaining country of the Jewish (Yehoudi) people, Judea (Yehoud), and, subsequently, the Romans committed genocide against the Jewish (Yehoudi) people and destroyed Judea (Yehouda). Subsequently, the Romans renamed Judea (Yehouda) to the name "Falastina"/"Palastina"/"Palaestina" in reference to the then-exinct sea-faring Greco people people the Philistines, who, several hundred years earlier, had attacked and invaded the country of the Jewish people.

It was Christian Europeans who, after the destruction of Judea (Yehouda) by the European people the Romans, began to call that area of land "Palestine". "Palestine" is the English spelling and pronunciation of the word "Falastina"/"Palastina"/"Palaestina".

The person who labeled the map that you listed was apparently one such Christian.

You, like many culturally Christian-European people, seem to hold the bigoted racist wrong view that you somehow own, and have some kind of authority regarding, the homeland of the Jewish people; and you, like many culturally Christian-European people, seem to hold the bigoted racist wrong view that you somehow own, and have some kind of authority regarding, the newly-re-founded, continuously genocidally besieged, liberal democratic, very small sole nation of the Jewish people.

Obama. A secret member of an openly polygamist cult. (Apparently)

Romney. An open member of a secretly polygamist cult.

Happy voting.

Romney's church does not sanction polygamy "today," does it?

I really cant see what you are quibbling about. There was no Israel before 1020 BC and then again from 722 BC till 1948 AD. So by your same argument against the Palestinians since they were no Jews there from the beginning of time they have no legitimacy in the current State of Israel?

By your argument, and others here, the current State of Israel is more of an artificial construct than Palestine.

The Philistines were hated by the Jews because they were in constant battle with them. But the fact that the province was named after them meant they existed at the time of Hadrian. And they existed at the time of Saul. Their battles with the Jews were recorded in the book of Samuel, including David and Goliath and Samson and Delilah.

But whatever be the case the people who lived in the Land of Palestine at the time of the British mandate, and their descendants can legitimately be called Palestinians.

I know about Islam better than the ignorant idiots who are attacking me and I support Israel, just to make things clear.

I really cant see what you are quibbling about. There was no Israel before 1020 BC and then again from 722 BC till 1948 AD. So by your same argument against the Palestinians since they were no Jews there from the beginning of time they have no legitimacy in the current State of Israel?

By your argument, and others here, the current State of Israel is more of an artificial construct than Palestine.

The Philistines were hated by the Jews because they were in constant battle with them. But the fact that the province was named after them meant they existed at the time of Hadrian. And they existed at the time of Saul. Their battles with the Jews were recorded in the book of Samuel, including David and Goliath and Samson and Delilah.

But whatever be the case the people who lived in the Land of Palestine at the time of the British mandate, and their descendants can legitimately be called Palestinians.

I know about Islam better than the ignorant idiots who are attacking me and I support Israel, just to make things clear.

No Israel before c.1020 B.C.? What about the two hundred years of Jews being ruled by the Judges before Saul became King? And no state of the Jews after 722 B.C, when the Assyrians destroyed the Northern Kingdom, and before 1948 A.D? Wrong again. You left out the Southern Kingdom which did not cease to exist until 586 B.C when the Chaldeans ended it. And what about the Macccabaean Kingdom which lasted from 129 B.C. to Pompey's terminatin of it in 63 B.C.? And there's more but this is enough for now. Your knowledge of Jewish histroy is as incomplete as it is biased.

Also, you know or should know that state or no state the Jewish people have a connection to an area of land about the size of Maryland going back thousands of years. And you should also know that the term "Palestinian" has been so PCed to death in these times in which we live that it has lost almost all meaning, except for those who seek the destrution of the Jewish state. And finally, your knowledge of Islam versus the "idiots" attacking you is not nearly as thorough as you think it is. With so much, you have an exaggerated sense of your own importance. In fact, you have become almost a parody of yourself. Give it up. Done here.

Obama again spreads false claim that Thomas Jefferson hosted first Ramadan iftar dinner at White House
.............................

What absolute crap. Obama is either uninformed about history or is lying outright. Moving a dinner a couple of hours later in consideration of one of the guests is *hardly* "an Iftar dinner".

And this isn't the first time Muslims have lied about Thomas Jefferson—the appalling Muslim congressman Keith Ellison took his oath of office on Jefferson's copy of the Koran—implying that Jefferson esteemed the contents of that vile tome.

Instead, he was reading it to gain knowledge of America's enemies the Barbary pirates, who represented the first real threat to the young republic after we gained independence from England.

Our challenge to the Barbary pirates led Britain, France, and the rest of Europe to finally stand up, fight back, and stop paying tribute to the vile slave-taking Muslims of north Africa.

The Mediterranean became safe for travel and commerce again for the first time since the late days of the Roman Empire.

To characterize this brave stance as some sort of sick "respect for Islam" could not be more grotesque.

Thomas Jefferson and John Adams knew Islam for what it is—how many Americans and other Westerners do today? All too few, or no one would be able to get away with this ludicrous Taqiyya.

No, my understanding is that they gave that up at least as the official line in return for statehood for Utah.

So these days most Mormons have only one wife.

Funny thing is so do most Muslims.

Generally though I share the reservations you have been expressing about the Republican party tonight and it's heartening to see an increasing number of people 'getting it' in this regard.

I can't help wondering, if, instead of being a Republican Romney was running as a Democrat (and he does have some credentials in this regard (pro-choice, health care reform etc.)) that in that case the Right would be all over his Mormonism much as they were all over Kennedy's Catholicism.

Like I said, Happy Voting. You seemed to have grasped how little difference it is going to make.

Rich,

You wrote:

"I know about Islam better than the ignorant idiots who are attacking me and I support Israel, just to make things clear."

I presume that I am one whom you called an "ignorant idiot".

You do not what I know or don't know about Islam.

Furthermore, you believe that you have the right to call Jewish people who are verbally defending the members of the universally libeled mortally endangered nation of their own people against lies "ignorant idiots".

You seem to believe that Jewish people who verbally defend the members of the universally libeled mortally endangered nation of their own people against lies are, in their doing so, evil callous people.

I feel affection for, and I want the best for, the Arab people who have come to now be called "The Palestinians".

However, I disapprove of the racist intendedly genocidal anti-Jewish 'Palestinian movement', and I disapprove of the racist ideologically genocidal anti-Jewish organizations of the 'Palestinian movement' -- Fatah-PLO-PA and Hamas.

And, involved with that, I disapprove of the propagation of racist intendedly genocidal anti-Jewish lies.

In your writing what you have written, you do not support Israel.

You wrote that you know about Islam.

Go know yourself.

Wellington you are obviously suffering from Alzheimer’s, not surprising at your age.

I was referring to a state or a country by the name of Israel. When the Jews were ruled by judges it was not Israel. "And no state of the Jews after 722 B.C" - No , no state of Israel.

Similarly with the Southern Kingdom and the Macccabaean Kingdom, they were not called Israel. The people over here are quibbling over a name.

I'll try and make it clear, for your ancient brain, so that you dont suffer from a stroke trying to figure it out.

Argument - the Palestinians have no rights because there is no such thing as Palestinians, and no such place as Palestine.

There was a place called Palestine which the British ruled from 1922 to 1948. Some people lived there, Muslims and Christians. They and their descendants are called Palestinians. They have rights.

If you dont like that name, call them something else. But just because you dont like the name doesnt mean the people dont have rights.

They have rights just like the people of Israel have rights. I dont say the people of Israel have not rights just because there was no Israel before 1948 and it is an artificial construct.

Wellington you are obviously suffering from Alzheimer’s, not surprising at your age.

I was referring to a state or a country by the name of Israel. When the Jews were ruled by judges it was not Israel. "And no state of the Jews after 722 B.C" - No , no state of Israel.

Similarly with the Southern Kingdom and the Macccabaean Kingdom, they were not called Israel. The people over here are quibbling over a name.

I'll try and make it clear, for your ancient brain, so that you dont suffer from a stroke trying to figure it out.

Argument - the Palestinians have no rights because there is no such thing as Palestinians, and no such place as Palestine.

There was a place called Palestine which the British ruled from 1922 to 1948. Some people lived there, Muslims and Christians. They and their descendants are called Palestinians. They have rights.

If you dont like that name, call them something else. But just because you dont like the name doesnt mean the people dont have rights.

They have rights just like the people of Israel have rights. I dont say the people of Israel have not rights just because there was no Israel before 1948 and it is an artificial construct.

from the past.....


Fitzgerald: Taqiyya: A quiz

(IsraelNN.com) Hamas leaders spoke to the Arabic language Ash-Sharq il-Awsat newspaper recently and explained that as Muslims, they are allowed to lie. In an interview printed on Thursday, senior Hamas terrorists explained, “A Muslim is permitted to say things that oppose his beliefs in order to prevent damages or to be saved from death.”
This approach, known in Arabic as “taqiyya,” was behind several Hamas leaders’ recent public expression of support for Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas, they explained. Senior Hamas terrorists in Samaria, who were recently released from jail, publicly expressed disapproval with the Hamas takeover of Gaza and said they supported the PA forces. The sources quoted in Ash-Sharq il-Awsat explained that the Samarian terrorists’ announcement was not a sign of dissent within Hamas ranks, but rather a permitted use of “taqiyya” to deceive Abbas and avoid prison sentences. – from this news article


Of course taqiyya has its roots in Shi'a Islam. Shi’a who felt the need to lie about their own faith because they were fearful of Sunni Muslims elaborated upon such religiously sanctioned dissimulation. But by now it has its counterpart, with Qur'anic sources, in Sunni Islam. This is important to understand, the next time Tariq Ramadan or someone else indignantly exclaims that "taqiyya" is "a Shi'a doctrine." Its sources are in Shi'ism; deception, including lying about the faith, is part of Sunni Islam as well.

Since we all know that Muslims may lie, may they also tell the truth? Of course they may, and the more forthright they are about it, the happier we should be.

Here's a three-question quiz designed to illustrate how the followers of Muhammad's statement "War is Deception" operate -- sometimes telling what they believe to be the truth, sometimes mingling what they believe to be the truth with falsehood.


Question #1.

The leader of the Arab terrorist group As Saiqa --the one who led "Palestinian" Arab Muslims to massacre hundreds of Maronites at Damour, in Lebanon -- Zuheir Mohsen, said the following to James Dorsey in a 1977 inteview in the Dutch newspaper "Trouw":

"The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct "Palestinian people" to oppose Zionism.

“For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan."

When he said that, was Zuhair Mohsen lying, or telling the truth?

Question #2.

At the U.N. in 1988, Yassir Arafat said the following:

“The State of Palestine is an Arab State; its people are an integral Part of the Arab nation and of the nation’s heritage, its civilization, and its aspiration to attain its goals of social progress, unity and liberation. [The State of Palestine] is committed to the Charter of the League of Arab States, the United Nations Charter, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights [apparently uniquely so, for not a single Arab state subscribes to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, but rather to the ‘Muslim’ version – the Cairo Declaration of Human Rights – which vitiates, in every important respect, every single one of the human rights that matter most] , and the principles of non-alignment."

Which parts of what he said were lies, and he knew he was lying, and which parts did he believe to be true?

Question #3.

In the latest issue of The Economist (February 1-7, 2008), the leader of Hamas, Mamoud Zahar, says:

“‘We [Palestinians] were never an independent state in history,’ he notes. ‘We were part of an Arab state and an Islamic state.’”

Is Mahmoud Zahar telling the truth, as he sees it, or is he lying?

And why in this case, and in the other two examples I have given above, does it matter?

Please write on only one side of the blue book.

Well, don't sweet talk me like you have. Go ahead, I can take it. Just give it to me straight next time.

You do put a lot of stalk in a name, don't you? Well, a rose by any other name is... Hopefully, you can grasp at least this much. Tough call, though, since you grasp so little.

So-called Palestinians have never been a group of people I or so many others wanted to deny rights to, including their own country. However, these excedingly stupid and hate-filled people have wanted very much to deny rights to Jews, to the extent of not allowing for any Jewish state, even only some 13% of what was originally the British Mandate. The so-called Palestinians could have had their silly little state as far back as 1948 but since they and their fellow Arabs wanted everything and were prepared to give the Jews, let's see, nothing, they have remained in the desultory condition they so richly deserve. I wonder if you can grasp this as well. I rather doubt it.

Rich,

You wrote:

"Argument - the Palestinians have no rights because there is no such thing as Palestinians, and no such place as Palestine."

Again, what are you talking about? What are you talking about with that "non sequitur" "straw-man" statement?

The group of Arab people who are now called "The Palestinians" are the still living members of, and the currently several million descendants of, the approximately 400,000 to 700,000 Arab refugees from the Muslim Arab self-declaredly intendedly genocidal "Jihad" attack on Israel by several Arab states in 1948, and began to be called the 'Palestinian' Arab refugees in the 1960's, and have come to now even be called "The Palestinians", and do not live in Israel, and are not citizens of Israel, and live in what is now called "The West Bank" (Judea (Yehouda) and Sameria (Shomron)), which is governed by Fatah-PLO-PalestinianAuthority, and in what is now called "The Gaza Strip", which is governed by Hamas, and in refugee camps in Muslim Arab states, and have been kept as refugees for over sixty years by Muslim Arab leaders and by the leaders of Western countries.

The still living members of, and the descendants of, the Arab people who did not flee from Israel immediately before, nor during, the 1948 Muslim Arab attack on Israel, and who were not among the few Arab people who were expelled from Israel during the 1948 Muslim Arab attack on Israel, live in Israel, and are citizens of Israel, and constitute approximately twenty percent of the population of Israel, and approximately eighty percent of them are Muslim, and approximately twenty percent of them are, in some cases, Christian, and, in other cases, Druze.

Furthermore, there were more Jewish refugees from Muslim states than there were Arab refugees from Israel.

The Jewish refugees from Muslim states in the Middle East found refuge in Israel and in other countries. The Jewish refugees from Muslim states in the Middle East who found refuge in Israel became citizens of Israel, and the still living members of, and the descendants of, those Jewish refugees from Muslim states are citizens of Israel and constitute approximately fifty percent of the Jewish population of Israel, and refer to themselves as Mizrahi, which means "Eastern" in Hebrew.

Furthermore, there have been tens of millions of refugees since the end of World War II, almost all of whom have been relocated to, and absorbed into, the countries to which they fled or were expelled -- such as several million ethnically German people who lived in the Sudetenland of Czechoslovakia (Sudeten Germans) who, immediately after World War II, were expelled from the Sudetenland of Czechoslovakia, and who, subsequently, were relocated to, and absorbed into, Germany.

----

You have propagated a lie that there has existed a nation called "Palestine" -- which is a lie that was invented within the past fifty years with the intention to destroy the nation of the Jewish people, Israel.

And you have propagated, in a "non sequitur" "straw-man argument" implicit way (in the manner of expressing something like: "Just because the Jewish people exist, doesn't mean that the Christian-European children that Jews kill and drink the blood of don't have rights."), a lie that it is not the leadership of the group of Arab people who are now called "The Palestinians" who have repeatedly refused the existence of one Arab state in, and the existence of one Jewish state in, the part of the British Mandate of Palestine which did not become Jordan, but that, rather, it is the leaders of the nation of the Jewish people, Israel, and the people of nation of the Jewish people, Israel, who have done that, and that the nation of the Jewish people, Israel, is oppressing the group of Arab people who are now called "The Palestinians".

And, in your doing so, you have implicitly obfuscated the fact that, for over forty decades, the leadership of the group of Arab people who are now called "The Palestinians" have been engaging in a terrorist mass-murderous, and deceitful diplomatic, conscious strategic effort to destroy the nation of the Jewish people.

And your doing so has obfuscated the fact that the sole purpose of the group of Arab people who are now called "The Palestinians" being referred to as being a people was to destroy the nation of the Jewish people.

And your doing so has obfuscated the fact that the founder of the 'Palestinian movement', Haj Amin al-Husseini, resided in Germany from 1941 to 1945, and was an adjoined official of the Nazi regime of Germany, and was a co-architect of the Nazi "Final Solution".

And you have written personal ad hominem insults to people who have refuted the lies which you have propagated.

And, while you have done these things, you have claimed that you "support Israel".

Go "support" yourself.

Since the subject of the genocidally-Jewhating (like all Muslims) 'Palestinian' Arab Muslims in and around Israel has come up, a few classic articles that may prove illuminating for the newer posters and lurkers.

First, Martha Gellhorn's 1961 article, 'The Arabs of Palestine'. That is: the Arabs who lived (many of them for only a brief period, two years or less, after having migrated in from elsewhere during the time of the mandate) in what the Jews have always called eretz Israel (though the Jews also kept in memory its even earlier name, Canaan) but which western Christians chose to call 'Palestine', taking their cue from the Romans, and which Arab Muslims and other kinds of Muslims never called 'Palestine' among themselves (and which said Muslims did not even usually regard as a single territorial unit).

Either of these links will take you to the article. Note well that this was prior to the Six Day War. Observe the open antisemitism of the Arab Muslims and - alas, tragically - of the Arab Christians, who **admired Eichmann and Hitler** (this sort of thing makes me feel ill; antisemitism is a demon that has to be exorcised from the body of Christendom; it cripples and blinds the church whenever it is present).

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1969/12/the-arabs-of-palestine/4203/

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/196110/gellhorn

I commend also to the interested newcomer John Roy Carlson's "Cairo to Damascus" - where he relates conversations that, posing as a former Nazi-lover and as an American Islamophile, he had with Arab Muslims in Egypt, heading off to wage Jihad against the newborn Jewish state; these Muslims were, one and all, high as kites on classic Islamic Jew-hatred, boasting to him about how they were going to slit Jewish throats and drink Jewish blood as it flowed warm from the body, and boasting that the sea off the Mediterranean coast would be black with the bodies of Jews.

And another useful book is James Parkes' 'Whose Land?' which gives an excellent and scholarly overview of the human history of eretz Israel, 'the Land', focusing especially on the period between the Roman assaults of AD 70 and AD 135, and the rebirth of Israel in 1948. The Land was *never* Judenrein, as many seem to imagine it was. And what is clear is that under Islamic rule, from the 7th to the 19th centuries - interrupted by the brief Crusader interregnum - the productivity and population of the region steadily and inexorably collapsed.

And three other articles that set out just exactly what we are dealing with.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4204927,00.html


Palestinians as 'super victims'

[Thought-exercise: reading the linked article, try substituting 'Muslims' and 'Muslim' wherever the author uses 'Palestinian' or 'Palestinians'. You will find that the article then becomes relevant to many other places].

More:

http://www.newenglishreview.org/blog_direct_link.cfm/blog_id/42534
Thursday, 14 June 2012
Alex Joffe On "Palestinian" Muslims And The Fabrication Of History

From The Middle East Quarterly:
The Rhetoric of Nonsense: 
Fabricating Palestinian History
by Alexander H. Joffe
Summer 2012, pp. 15-22


And for another example of the depth of BS - the all -pervasiveness of malevolent denial and nonsense - that is produced by those poor, poor, pitiful 'palestinians', here:

http://www.newenglishreview.org/blog_direct_link.cfm/blog_id/43420

Friday, 10 August 2012
Denial Runs Deep in Hebron


and this:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4214466,00.html
The Arab-Muslim narrative


"A few years ago, while visiting the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, I had a very disturbing conversation with a member of the Islamic Waqf who was escorting me to make sure that I didn't pray on the holy mountain.
I asked him if he could tell me when the al-Aqsa mosque was built.
He looked at me with a straight face and responded that it was always there.

I hadn't expected that, and of course was surprised and asked again.
I thought that maybe he didn't understand my question and meant that the mountain was always there.

So I asked again, and made it clear that I meant the mosque located on the southern extension of the Temple Mount that was built by Herod.

**(Historically, the entire platform that the al-Aqsa mosque is built on didn't even exist during the time of the first Temple.)** [my emphasis - dda]

It turned out that this “learned” member of the Islamic clergy, whose job is to work on the Temple Mount, actually believed that the structure of the al-Aqsa mosque was just there - from the beginning of time."

Point for *all* westerners to bear grimly in mind, when dealing with Muslims - including the Arab Muslims, the so-called 'palestinians', and their Islamochristian / dhimmified fellow travellers/ water-carriers such as Naim Ateek of sweetly-sinister Sabeel - they lie, lie, lie, lie, lie. And they are masters of BS - which is something other than lying, it is about saying whatever you think will serve your purpose with the person you're talking to - **regardless** of whether it happens to be true, or half-true, or false; for truth as such simply matters not to you at all, it is other things, like Power, that matter more.

The 'Palestinians' are the shock troops of Jihad.

They're being used by the rest of the Ummah, against Israel, exactly as the Third Reich used the Sudetendeutsch against Czechoslovakia.

Interesting discussion; here are my $.02:

"I believe Rich, the reason we have this nightmare in the White House is largely because foolish people like you (perhaps?) who carried George W. Bush's water for seven long years post 9/11, even as he repeatedly lied about Islam and Israel. I have been planning on voting for Romney. I hope this report is a false one. Don't you?"

wildjew, I agree with most of your points. I do not agree that "W" lied, nor do I lay most of the blame on "W" for the current problems with islam. "W" has/had a very naive view of religion. He thinks islam is a legitimate religion, and he thinks any religion is better than no religion. He believes islam is a great religion that has been hijacked by a few bad people. "W" believed you can nation build with islam. These views are all, of course, very stupid, and they have had many serious consequences. But I don't believe the bad results of this stupidity are willful on the part of "W".

"...when the governor of Texas was exposed for his questionable associations and activities related to Islam, as well as white washing its history."

HUH? HAS EVERYONE OUT HERE FORGOTTEN all those news stories of muslims shining laser lights into landing and taking off aircraft in various Texas airports in the hopes of blinding the pilot's eyes in a plane that might contain one or more Bushs?

islam has been making world trouble ever since mohammad was found, hatched under a damp rock, and went on to invent allah, and islam.

All world leaders from about 1450 A.D. forward, who did not see islam for what it is, (an anti-western ideology masquerading as a religion, which wants to take over the world), are guilty of dereliction of duty. Those who saw the threat and did not act are despicable cowards.

The blame for the current islamic threat is most fairly placed on the brittle shoulders of Jimmuh Carter, ex pos POTUS, ex peanut farmer, relentless 24/7 anti semite, and while his incompetent fingers were near the dreaded RED PHONE, as POTUS, decided to destabilize the

Shah of Iran, THIS GUY:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_uS5WnoRKw7Q/TMkITePxxZI/AAAAAAAAB0M/n7yMBwiqm50/s1600/shah_uniform2.jpg

... so we could get THIS GUY:

http://i-cias.com/e.o/ill/khomeini01.jpg

Rich, with all due respect, wildjew is correct about palestine and palestinians,

THEY ARE A FICTION!

Barry Hussein attended MANY palestinian rallies throughout his entire public life, a point largely ignored by the leftist press. This resulted in the election of the nations first muslim president.

Any time words like "two state solution" or "palestinian homeland rights" come out of the mouths of politicians, those politicions immediatelty identify themselves as sympathizers with islam.

Correction:

I wrote:

"...for over forty decades..."

which should be:

"...for over forty years..."

"..these excedingly stupid and hate-filled people have wanted very much to deny rights to Jews, to the extent of not allowing for any Jewish state, even only some 13% of what was originally the British Mandate. The so-called Palestinians could have had their silly little state as far back as 1948 but since they and their fellow Arabs wanted everything and were prepared to give the Jews, let's see, nothing, they have remained in the desultory condition they so richly deserve."

Well that is mostly true. There is the also the fact that while Jewish refugees from Arab lands are full fledged Israeli citizens, Palestinian "refugees" remain refugees after 70 years in much larger Arab states.

And the Hate is something they have been taught by their ideology. If they do give up that hate then they do deserve a fair deal and maybe not all of them are hate-filled. But that is a big if.

"..these excedingly stupid and hate-filled people have wanted very much to deny rights to Jews, to the extent of not allowing for any Jewish state, even only some 13% of what was originally the British Mandate. The so-called Palestinians could have had their silly little state as far back as 1948 but since they and their fellow Arabs wanted everything and were prepared to give the Jews, let's see, nothing, they have remained in the desultory condition they so richly deserve."

Well that is mostly true. There is the also the fact that while Jewish refugees from Arab lands are full fledged Israeli citizens, Palestinian "refugees" remain refugees after 70 years in much larger Arab states.

And the Hate is something they have been taught by their ideology. If they do give up that hate then they do deserve a fair deal and maybe not all of them are hate-filled. But that is a big if.


Fitzgerald: Barack Obama and the "legitimate claims" of Hamas

According to columnist David Brooks, who has been talking in his naive boy-scoutish way to Barack Obama, the teflon candidate believes that “the U.S. needs a foreign policy that ‘looks at the root causes of problems and dangers.’ And, again according to Brooks, “Obama compared Hezbollah to Hamas. Both need to be compelled to understand that ‘they’re going down a blind alley with violence that weakens their legitimate claims.’”

Let's start with the "legitimate claims" of Hamas. In fact, let's start with just one of the sections in the Hamas Charter, which is the clearest guide to Hamas's unswerving world-view and intentions.

Here it is:


Article Seven: The Universality of Hamas
By virtue of the distribution of Muslims, who pursue the cause of the Hamas, all over the globe, and strive for its victory, for the reinforcement of its positions and for the encouragement of its Jihad, the Movement is a universal one. It is apt to be that due to the clarity of its thinking, the nobility of its purpose and the loftiness of its objectives. It is in this light that the Movement has to be regarded, evaluated and acknowledged. Whoever denigrates its worth, or avoids supporting it, or is so blind as to dismiss its role, is challenging Fate itself. Whoever closes his eyes from seeing the facts, whether intentionally or not, will wake up to find himself overtaken by events, and will find no excuses to justify his position. Priority is reserved to the early comers. Oppressing those who are closest to you, is more of an agony to the soul than the impact of an Indian sword. “And unto thee have we revealed the Scripture with the truth, confirming whatever scripture was before it, and a watcher over it. So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires away from the truth which has come unto thee. For each we have appointed a divine law and a traced-out way. Had Allah willed, He could have made you one community. But that He may try you by that which he has given you [He has made you as you are]. So vie with one another in good works. Unto Allah, you will all return. He will then inform you of that wherein you differ.”

Hamas is one of the links in the Chain of Jihad in the confrontation with the Zionist invasion. It links up with the setting out of the Martyr Izz a-din al-Qassam and his brothers in the Muslim Brotherhood who fought the Holy War in 1936; it further relates to another link of the Palestinian Jihad and the Jihad and efforts of the Muslim Brothers during the 1948 War, and to the Jihad operations of the Muslim Brothers in 1968 and thereafter. But even if the links have become distant from each other, and even if the obstacles erected by those who revolve in the Zionist orbit, aiming at obstructing the road before the Jihad fighters, have rendered the pursuance of Jihad impossible; nevertheless, the Hamas has been looking forward to implement Allah’s promise whatever time it might take. The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and Muslim).


Now let's see that Article Seven reproduced, or read out over the radio, by those who would like Barack Obama to tell us about his view of Hamas, and its "legitimate claims."

It is Edmund, isn't it, in King Lear, who notes: "Fine word, legitimate."

And once Barack Obama has had a chance to take in Article Seven of the Hamas Charter, and to relate it to the "legitimate rights" of the "Palestinian people," perhaps he can deal with Article Fifteen as well:

Article Fifteen: The Jihad for the Liberation of Palestine is an Individual Obligation
When our enemies usurp some Islamic lands, Jihad becomes a duty binding on all Muslims. In order to face the usurpation of Palestine by the Jews, we have no escape from raising the banner of Jihad. This would require the propagation of Islamic consciousness among the masses on all local, Arab and Islamic levels. We must spread the spirit of Jihad among the [Islamic] Umma, clash with the enemies and join the ranks of the Jihad fighters. The ‘ulama as well as educators and teachers, publicity and media men as well as the masses of the educated, and especially the youth and the elders of the Islamic Movements, must participate in this raising of consciousness. There is no escape from introducing fundamental changes in educational curricula in order to cleanse them from all vestiges of the ideological invasion which has been brought about by orientalists and missionaries.

That invasion had begun overtaking this area following the defeat of the Crusader armies by Salah a-Din el Ayyubi. The Crusaders had understood that they had no way to vanquish the Muslims unless they prepared the grounds for that with an ideological invasion which would confuse the thinking of Muslims, revile their heritage, discredit their ideals, to be followed by a military invasion. That was to be in preparation for the Imperialist invasion, as in fact [General] Allenby acknowledged it upon his entry to Jerusalem: “Now, the Crusades are over.” General Gouraud stood on the tomb of Salah a-Din and declared: “We have returned, O Salah-a-Din!” Imperialism has been instrumental in boosting the ideological invasion and deepening its roots, and it is still pursuing this goal. All this had paved the way to the loss of Palestine.

We must imprint on the minds of generations of Muslims that the Palestinian problem is a religious one, to be dealt with on this premise. It includes Islamic holy sites such as the Aqsa Mosque, which is inexorably linked to the Holy Mosque as long as the Heaven and earth will exist, to the journey of the Messenger of Allah, be Allah’s peace and blessing upon him, to it, and to his ascension from it. “Dwelling one day in the Path of Allah is better than the entire world and everything that exists in it. The place of the whip of one among you in Paradise is better than the entire world and everything that exists in it. [God’s] worshiper’s going and coming in the Path of Allah is better than the entire world and everything that exists in it.” (Told by Bukhari, Muslim Tirmidhi and Ibn Maja) I swear by that who holds in His Hands the Soul of Muhammad! I indeed wish to go to war for the sake of Allah! I will assault and kill, assault and kill, assault and kill (told by Bukhari and Muslim).


And Barack Obama shouldn't forget to deal especially with the last few sentences in the last paragraph above.

Who is this "Rich" fellow anyway? He suddenly appears, like "Jon"
(and so many others) of yesteryear, to pretend to weigh in on the pro-"Palestinian" side of this issue in a reasonable and intelligent way, weaving a complex sophistical tissue of half-truths, disinformation and probably not a few outright lies.

Anyway:

Here's an interesting report studying and analyzing statistical data of deaths comparing "Palestinians" and Isrealis:

The whole report should be read (not that long), but here's the summary:

The Significance of the Statistical Patterns

The statistics show that Israeli noncombatants over the last 21 months have been killed essentially at random, as Palestinian terrorists have chosen to attack whichever civilian targets were accessible.

Palestinian fatalities, however, have been strongly concentrated within a particular population segment - teenaged boys and young men.

Population segments like women or older people are not military targets; thus their higher prevalence among Israeli fatalities is an indication of the degree to which Palestinian terrorists have killed Israelis simply for the "crime" of being Israeli.

In contrast, Palestinian noncombatant fatalities have been
overwhelmingly young (but over the age of 11) and male. This pattern of Palestinian deaths completely contradicts accusations that Israel has "indiscriminately targeted women and children." It is clear that the vast majority of the Palestinians killed did not die as the result of random Israeli attacks on inhabited areas, or on mixed-sex crowds at roadblocks and the like. There appears to be only one reasonable explanation of this pattern: that Palestinian men and boys engaged in behavior that brought them into conflict with Israeli armed forces.

Certainly, at least after the first few days of the conflict, these Palestinian men and boys (or, in the case of the younger ones, their parents and teachers) have to have been aware that they were placing themselves in harm's way.

In fact, the highly specific pattern of Palestinian noncombatant fatalities suggests that many of these deaths have resulted from an active Palestinian indoctrination campaign glorifying "martyrdom" - effectively encouraging boys and young men to confront Israeli forces and risk death even when there was no real likelihood of causing material harm to Israelis.

IMRA - Independent Media Review and Analysis
Website: www.imra.org.il

http://spme.net/cgi-bin/facultyforum.cgi?ID=233

The report -- which can be amplified by dozens (if not hundreds) of other various reports over the years -- dryly articulates the horrifically fanatical savagery of the "Palestinian" Muslims which is, along with the misoxenic antisemitic supremacism rooted in their holy texts and solidified in their culture and psychology, the crucial reason why they have no right to any land, let alone that land.

The supplementary reason, that "Palestinian" is a propaganda invention used by Muslims and swallowed subsequently by gullible Westerners, is additional, but not necessary.

We all know, or should know, the infamous candor of Zuheir Mohsen, a "Palestinian" leader in the 1970s, when he all but admitted this in an interview conducted by a Dutch newspaper Trouw in 1977 (back then, as with Algerian leader Boumedienne in 1974, a Muslim could still get away with taking off the mask so brazenly -- though I dare say the West remains sufficiently stupid that Muslims needn't worry all that much about laying bare their daggers from beneath their cloaks):

"...ik heb familieleden met het Palestijnse, Libanese, Jordaanse en Syrische staatsburgerschap. Wij zijn één volk. Alleen maar om politieke redenen onderschrijven wij zorgvuldig onze Palestijnse identiteit. Het is namelijk van nationaal belang voor de Arabieren om het bestaan van de Palestijnen aan te moedigen tegenover het zionisme. Ja, het bestaan van een aparte Palestijnse identiteit is er alleen om tactische redenen. De stichting van een Palestijnse staat is een nieuw middel om de strijd tegen Israel en voor de Arabische eenheid voort te zetten."

Translation:

"...I have family members with Palestinian, Lebanese, Jordanian and Syrian citizenship. We are one people. Only for political reasons we carefully underscore our Palestinian identity. Because it is of national interest for the Arabs to advocate the existence of Palestinians to balance Zionism. Yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity exists only for tactical reasons. The establishment of a Palestinian state is a new tool to continue the fight against Israel and for Arab unity."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zuheir_Mohsen

P.S.: Interesting that the Dutch word used to render "fight" in that last sentence of Mohsein's interview --

The establishment of a Palestinian state is a new tool to continue the fight against Israel and for Arab unity

-- is "strijd", which can also mean "strive against, struggle": I.e., Jihad.

wildjew,

It's not good to intend to hurt any living being.

It's not good to do any action in delusion, or in greed, or in anger. It's difficult for me do not do any action in delusion, or greed, or anger. And I often do actions in delusion, and in greed, and in anger. However, I strive to not do any action in delusion, or in greed, or in anger.

What Jewish people need to do now to protect Israel is beneficial non-violent action -- skillful action.

What needs to be done now to protect Israel is for Jewish people, and especially the Jewish leaders of the government of Israel, to tell the truth -- the true factual history (specifically the currently approximately 90-year history), and current reality, of the situation that Israel is in.

This rich fellow is a kiwi who would gladly kick you to the promised land. Dont you dare accuse me of any pretense you yellow slime ball.

Rich,

You have shown your true colors.

Rich,

However, it seemed that you were becoming reasonable with your second to most recent comment.

I hope that you will let go of anger and that you will be reasonable.

My reading untrue statements that you wrote, and my reading malicious statements that you wrote, caused me to feel anger. And, as a result of my feeling anger as a result of my reading untrue statements that you wrote, and as a result of my feeling anger as a result of my reading malicious statements that you wrote, I wrote certain harsh things to you. However, I regret that I felt anger. And I apologize if certain harsh things that I wrote to you caused you to feel anger.

May you be well and happy.

Dan

If Muslim fanatics cannot tolerate moderate and secular Muslims, why should they be expected to accept those who belong to other faiths?

Read more: http://www.maghrebchristians.com/2012/08/14/attacks-on-christians-sharpen-with-government-collusion/#ixzz23Ve4NBjm

Youssef

Again, our politicians parade their ignorance, clumsily "wing it" (or, follow scripts by lesser ignoramuses who think themselves wise) and think themselves Statesmen. With a capital S.

I still do not see Barry Obama as a stealth Muslim, even if I think he probably imbibed his instinctive anti-Americanism from the New Left milieu in which he was raised (I don't think his mother's admittedly poor judgment when it came to the men in her life helped, either). Further, I'm not so sure how much Islam he could have picked up from his school in Indonesia when he was a kid and probably had serious weaknesses in the local language. Perhaps he might have been attracted by the gymnastics of Islamic prayer and the melodiousness of the Azzan (yes, I think it's melodious, even if it spews forth a lie). Also, the Islam of Indonesia in the 1960's and '70's was relatively easy-going outside of places like Aceh. It coculd have haf something of an appeal to the intellectually lazy and those who aren't too keen on tackling difficult texts or looking below the surface. So, I think the O's understanding of Islam is only marginally better than the average liberal American's of either party, if it is better at all.

Having been schooled to scorn traditional Christianity and to think that a broad "tolerance" is a virtue, most of our policymakers have a very hard time seriously grappling with any theological issue.

Which leads me to the comments from Rich, who urges the Jews and Muslims to embrace "humanity".

I can't really speak for the Jews--although if they found the bones of Jesus Christ and proved beyond all reasonable doubt that he truly stayed dead--I'd probably go for Judaism, down to the laws of kashrut, the tzitzit, beard, getting the you-know-what pricked, and mikveh. But I do note that the Rabbis of old did note the yetzer ra'a in all of us, the evil impulse, which sounds suspiciously to this Christian a little like the germ of the doctrine of original sin.

In contrast, Rich has clearly embraced the same paideia of our governing class, despite its having made us a little too interventionist for our own good. One of the things that recognizing the evil in the human heart is that you can't, on the one hand, condemn the other guy for "dehumanizing" his opponents while at the same time, excommunicating from the human race everyone outside of our little "enlightened" band and, in good Rousseauan fashion, oompelling others to be "free" (mother of oxymorons, that).

You see, Rich, my dear Norse Dakotan mother--Gud hville henne--had some pretty bloody-minded ancestors back before Good King Olav Tryggvesson gave them the choice of baptism or death. My dear father, alov hasholom, had ancestors who, the Good Book tells me, sacrificed their firstborn to Ba'al and Moloch. I've also shared meals with people whose ancestors believed you weren't a man until you'd brought home an enemy head. Much as I condemn the beliefs and practices of those ancestral cults,I will not deny the humanity of the people who practiced them. Off the top of my head, I recall having read somewhere in Paul that "such were some of you".

Rich there is a 1893 map in Arabic of the Ottoman Empire ...the area of Israel is called " Wilayat Soorya" meaning "Province of Syria."
There is no mention of Palestine.

http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/212689.php

Wellington, you wrote: "I would, however, respectfully suggest to you or to anyone who sees that Romney is almost infinitely preferable to Obama not to say anything negative about the guy until AFTER the election. No real upside to doing so...."

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I believe your advise reflects the vast majority of the conservative side. I would only say this in response. If Romney (I contributed to his campaign several weeks back by the way) doesn't want me to say negative things about him, I would suggest he not court the advise of dedicated Israel-haters if indeed he is. There are too many people out there who are every bit as smart and talented as James Baker that are not dedicated Israel-haters.

You wrote: "But I do note that the Rabbis of old did note the yetzer ra'a in all of us, the evil impulse, which sounds suspiciously to this Christian a little like the germ of the doctrine of original sin..."


I am not here to defend the rabbis. I think they held 'men' have both an inclination to do evil (yetzer hara) and an inclination to do good (yetzer tov) but the inclination to do evil is inherent. It is not driven by demons or by ha-satan or by any concept of original sin.

So Gerald what does that map mean?

Does it mean that no one resided in the territory that was later classified as Palestine? Or does this map mean the people who resided there were illegal? Or because of this map they can be kicked out and had no right to be there?

Does that map show Israel? Does the same argument you have for Palestine apply to Israel also? or only to Palestine?

Here is a map which does show Palestine and its dated 1916.

http://www.hartzman.com/Israel/Pre-Mandate%20Era/Sykes-Picot%20Map.jpg

I guess they gotta do what they gotta do...I have no use for Christi or any other Islamosoft or Islamostupid politician, of which there seems to be many...Christi did his own iftar dinner and celebrated a dubious Mahoundian character, or many...and this is the guy they choose to speak...
There is something wrong with this picture...If I stare at it long enough I will figure it out...

Kepha,

I appreciate your expressing disapproval of certain malicious racist wrong speech that the commenter "Rich" wrote.

However,

You don't have to go back to before who you have referred to as being the ancestors of a people of whom you have referred to as your being a member adopted the religion Christianity to see examples of the doing of evil -- the doing of extreme, unparalleled, unsurpassed, evil -- by very many of those people of whom you have referred to as your being a member -- Christian European people.

Such extreme, unparalleled, unsurpassed, evil has been done continuously, for the past two thousand years, by very many of those people of whom you have referred to as your being a member -- Christian European people. And most of that extreme, unparalleled, unsurpassed, evil that has been done by those members of that people of whom you have referred to as your being a member has been done by those members of that people of whom you have referred to as your being a member to the people who those people who you have referred to as your being a member of have falsely accused of being inherently evil -- the Jewish people.

And such extreme, unparalleled, unsurpassed, evil was done seventy years ago by very many of the people of whom you have referred to as your being a member.

And such extreme, unparalleled, unsurpassed, evil is being done at present time by very many of the people of whom you have referred to as your being a member.

The hypocrisy of culturally European Christians is paralleled only by, and surpassed only by, Muslims.

Involved with this, Christianity is the worship, as a deity (in the religious mythological construct of certain ancient Greek and Egyptian religions), of a Jewish person who was killed by a European people -- the Romans -- who committed genocide against the Jewish people and who then falsely accused the Jewish people of having killed that Jewish person who they -- those European people -- killed, and who falsely accused the Jewish people -- an actual group of actual living people -- an actual group of actual living people who they -- those European people -- committed genocide against -- of being inherently evil.

The ideology Christianity is the projection, and worship, of one's own ego, and is the vilification of an ethnic and cultural social group the perception of the existence of whose members by the adherents of the ideology Christianity feels, to adherents of the ideology Christianity, to be a threat to the holding of the ego-worshipping self-identity view that the adherents of the ideology Christianity hold.

However, although the ancestral religion of the Jewish people, Judaism, unlike the religion Christianity, and unlike the religious and political ideology and system of government Islam, is not a supremacist religion, nor an imperialist religion, the ancestral religion of the Jewish people, Judaism, is a chauvinistic religion.

And, although I appreciate the beneficial moral principals of the ancestral religion of the Jewish people, Judaism -- principals such as the beneficial moral principal of The Golden Rule of: "Don't do to others what you would not want others to do to you", and such as the beneficial moral principals that are included in the Ten Commandments -- I understand the ancestral religion of the Jewish people, Judaism, to be a wrong view.

I have been born a member of the Jewish people in my current birth. However, I am not an adherent of the ancestral religion of the Jewish people -- Judaism.

The existential view that I hold, and the existential and moral path of practice that I strive to follow, is Theravada Buddhism.

Theravada Buddhism is the school of Buddhism which adheres to the Tipitaka (also called the Pali Canon) -- the oldest surviving written recordings of the teachings of the Buddha.

The Buddha was a human being who attained enlightenment and final release from suffering. The Buddha was born in India approximately two thousand five hundred years ago. The word "Buddha" is a title and means "Awakened One".

The foundational teaching of the Buddha is the teaching of the Four Noble Truths.

The Four Noble Truths

The truth of stress ("Now this, monks, is the noble truth of stress: Birth is stressful, aging is stressful, death is stressful; sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are stressful; association with the unbeloved is stressful, separation from the loved is stressful, not getting what is wanted is stressful. ...")

The truth of the origination of stress ("And this, monks, is the noble truth of the origination of stress: the craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming.")

The truth of the cessation of stress ("And this, monks, is the noble truth of the cessation of stress: the remainderless fading & cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, & letting go of that very craving.")

The truth of the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress ("And this, monks, is the noble truth of the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress: precisely this Noble Eightfold Path — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.")

When Christians act up, it is in spite of Christianity, not because of it...
When Muslims act up, it is because of Islam, not in spite of it...

There were times in the history of the Catholic Church, that despotic and depraved men managed to grab power and use it to abuse...in 'God's name'...One of the worse offenders, but not the only one, was Rodrigo Borgia, Pope Alexander the 6th...He along with his lovely sister Lucretia were morally and spiritually bankrupt...Murder, intrigue, super abuse of power were their methods...They even turned the Popes Quarters into a brothel...
The point is that they did not act like that because of Christianity, but in spite of it...
When a Christian kills in the name of God, he is lying, he is doing it for himself...
When a Mahoundian says, .
'I kill in the name of Allah', he is telling the truth...

duh_swami

You wrote:

"When Christians act up, it is in spite of Christianity, not because of it..."

That could be said of the adherents of many religions.

Furthermore, the religious ideology Christianity holds, as a tenet of that religious ideology, a malicious racist wrong view which falsely accuses an actual ethnic and cultural social group of having killed the deity of that religious ideology; and the religious ideology Christianity holds, as a tenet of that religious ideology, a malicious racist wrong view which falsely accuses the members of the actual ethnic and cultural social group which the religious ideology Christianity falsely accuses of having killed the deity of that religious ideology of being inherently evil.

Furthermore, it has been self-professed adherents of the religious ideology Christianity who, other than self-professed adherents of the ideology Islam, have done the most evil in known human history.

Religions have one main purpose...Enlightenment...But this is lost in a tornado of words...and the human trait of, 'if you don't understand it, make something up, and pretend you understand that'...Unfortunately, because of that, religions create religious supremacist bigots...The opposite of enlightenment...Fortunately for the aware, you don't need religion for enlightenment...The priest industry does not want you to know that...

duh_swami, and everyone,

I realize that my mind is defiled -- defiled by delusion, greed (craving), and anger -- defiled in the way that the Buddha explained that a mind which is defiled -- the mind of an ordinary human being -- is defiled.

And my mind is currently in a state of being distressed and frustrated.

And I have written what I have written in comments on this post while my mind has been in a state of being distressed and frustrated and while my mind has been in a state of feeling anger.

And I feel afraid that my writing about Buddhism while my mind was in a state of being distressed and frustrated and while my mind was in a state of feeling anger was unwholesome and unbeneficial. I apologize for my writing about Buddhism while mind was in a state of being distressed and frustrated and while my mind was been in a state of feeling anger.

And I have written other things in my comments on this post while mind was in a state of being distressed and frustrated and while my mind was in a state of feeling anger. And I feel afraid that my writing those things that I wrote while my mind was in a state of being distressed and frustrated and while my mind was in a state of feeling anger was unbeneficial. And I apologize if my writing those things that I wrote while mind was in a state of being distressed and frustrated and while my mind was in a state of feeling anger was unbeneficial. However those things that I wrote are true. And I hope that those things that I wrote may be beneficial.

The reason that my mind was in a state of being distressed and frustrated and was in a state of feeling anger was largely because of my perceiving the situation that the Jewish people are in. And what I have written about the situation that the Jewish people are in, including what I have written about the religious ideology Christianity, I have written while my mind has been in a state of being distressed and frustrated and while my mind has been in a state of feeling anger. And I think that my writing some of what I have written about the situation that the Jewish people are in, including what I have written about the religious ideology Christianity, may have been unbeneficial. However, what I have written about the situation that the Jewish people are in, including what I have written about the religious ideology Christianity, is true. And I hope that what I have written about the situation that the Jewish people are in, including what I have written about the religious ideology Christianity, may be beneficial.

Correction:

I wrote:

"...while mind was in a state of..."

which should be:

"...while my mind was in a state of..."

Although, I think that saying "the mind" may be what, in general, is correct.

There are places on this earth where islam doesn't do so well.

islam doesn't do so well in communist China. Why? Because the communist Chinese correctly view islam as a competing ideology to communism. The communist Chinese take the short, easy route to the problem, they simply kill the muslims.

islam does not do so well in selected European neighborhoods dominated (I am not kidding about this) Hell's Angel's. islams were terrorizing old people, grandmas, and the like, and Hell's Angels members just started killing the offending muslims. THE islamic TERROR STOPPED REAL QUICKLY.

islam also doesn't do to well when it goes up against
THESE GUYS:

http://www.topspysecrets.com/israeli-mossad.html

At some point, as islam continues to overplay its hand, trust me, there will be a cleansing, and a lot of islams are going to be on the wrong end of the sword, for a change.


So Obama is really saying is that islam and Muslims condoned Slavery because muslims deem Blacks as sub-humans and allowed it to continue until a non-muslim ( Lincoln) opposed it.
Makes sense because in 1859 it was the Democrats and the Judges and lawyers that fought to expand Slavery to all 13 Colonies in the new Union because it was only fair that if some States could own Blacks, then all States shouold own Blacks to have true Equality.

Obama now endorses the islamic Slavery for the USA via Shariah law and his buddies in the MB that use him like a useful idiot and puppet.

Where's the islamic memorial for the Civil war???? , or the islamic Memorial for WW2 and Pearl harbour????

Will Obama calim that Muslims died at Pearl and Midway, then claim they died on the beaches of Normany or flew the planes that dropped the bombs on Japan????


WOW, this guy just digs hsi hole deeper and deeper to apease the islamic supremacy Brown Shirts.

In response to: "When Christians act up, it is in spite of Christianity, not because of it..."

You wrote: "That could be said of the adherents of many religions."

Yes, you're right -- but not of Islam.

Apparently, you haven't been reading Jihad Watch enough. There is a horrible, grotuesquely ghoulish mountain of data here going back over a decade, indicating you are grievously, heart-breakingly incorrect about this. Before you make sweeping statements, learn the facts.

While Daniel has written copiously above in defense of Israel and seems to otherwise show an awareness of the violent relentless jihad by Muslims against the Jews, he makes other statements that cannot, it seems, but set up a schizophrenic dissonance:

I feel affection for, and I want the best for, the Arab people who have come to now be called "The Palestinians".

And:

It's not good to do any action in delusion, or in greed, or in anger. It's difficult for me do not do any action in delusion, or greed, or anger. And I often do actions in delusion, and in greed, and in anger. However, I strive to not do any action in delusion, or in greed, or in anger.

What Jewish people need to do now to protect Israel is beneficial non-violent action -- skillful action.

What Jewish people need to do now is non-v8olent action!!!??? Now, when Muslims are only getting worse, more bloodthirsty, more fanatically violent than ever before? Are you out of your cotton-picking mind, one wants to ask. Please, figure out the illogical paradoxes in your mind before you set your thoughts down on paper and screen.

EXACTLY, LL.

Israelis need to kick some major mohammedan a$$ in a BIG way.

Here's hoping they start with Iran, then go back and "mop up" the palis.

On a very specific charge you made against Christianity, I must vigorously disagree with you, DB. You averred in your 5:24 A.M. post of today that Christianity is guilty of a "malicious racist wrong view" in that it holds the Jewish people responsible for the killing of the Christian God. Christianity does no such thing. Subway, inaccurate versions of Christianty do but Christianity in its most correct form does not. Rather, the official position of Christianity is that the Jews and Romans served as a kind of Everyman in Christ's death, that they were representative of the entire human race, all of which was responsible for the death of the Christian savior.

BTW, I am not a Christian, am not religious in the least, but accuracy and fairness demanded that I write this to you. What you stated is the Christian view is actually the sham version of the Christian view. Best regards.

You said :

''Wellington you are obviously suffering from Alzheimer’s, not surprising at your age''

How much I **despise** people like you, who, rather than respond in a substantive way to those you disagree with, immediately weigh in with spiteful, personal attacks. This is the way of the left, islamic apologists, and all those who have not the knowledge, understanding, or sheer intelligent ability, to refute those who who disagree with them on an intellectual basis.

If you truly believe the 'palestinians' have a case, then you should be able to articulate that case, against Wellington's arguments, without resorting to personal abuse, and childish playground epithets.

Frankly, your resort to personal abuse of Wellington, who has shown himself to be a formidable, intelligent, and informed poster, calls into question *whatever* your political position may be. I might have been open to your arguments, in the sense, I would have been prepared to listen to them, if you had not so gratuitiously insulted one who has never insulted you, and who has produced arguments you have yet to refute.

It's quite extraordinary how people like you so constantly shoot yourselves in the foot.


My Dear fellow JW readers & posters:

I am most grateful for the education received by this
article and by the numerous posts thereunder.

I've been an avid reader of JW ever since I first found
this site about a year ago. I profoundly aplaud Mr Spencer
& company together with the many wise posters to this site,
including, and not limited to: DDA, Wellington, Wildjew,
LL and others.

I share with you all my utmost distain for islam and
all the dregs of humanity who ally themselves with that
insane, hateful, murderous ideology. Islam is NOT a true
religion and does NOT deserve any protection under our
Constitution.

Adding my two cents: There is very little difference
between Obama & Romney anent the issue of islam. Unless
and until one of them CLEARLY states his opposition to
islam, I'll not vote for either of them.


Peace, Paul R.

I agree with and support every word of your commentary, Jan, and am sorry I missed stating something similar on my own, already. Very greatly, it needed saying. Thanks so much for taking the initiative.


Baseness and courseness of the common public behavior is not an appreciated virtue here, at Jihadwatch.org. Important issues exist here, to be fleshed out and learned, regrettably, and we are not driving a truck, or drinking up at a "friends in low places" bar.


Wellington, I had recognized quickly, early on, is one of the high scholarly, measured, tresures of reason and high knowledge, and literary talent, a number of which we are indeed blessed to have at this very, very special site, precisely so, because of such learned people, here. TJFJ

Thank you, Jan. Hope you're well.

Thanks to you too, TJ. And also hope you're well.

Ah, the fight never ends, does it? Better this way I think. Civilized people should never, must never, take civilization for granted. To this extent I'm grateful to Islam for reminding civilized folks on a regular basis what they stand to lose if something like Islam can only get its way.

Thanks, also, Wellington. For the past 5 decades, since post WW2, while all were getting back to something passing as normalcy, we did seem to take the benefits of civilization too easily for granted while all were enjoying their shares of those benefits of America’s Freedom, and decidedly drifted away from passing on and defending the truths of history that had lead us to the benefits of the American experience of Freedom and the Constitutional protections, and Western Civ.

The re-arising of the evil islam gang of criminals, again, certainly is doing, and over the near term, going to focus people on those precious differences, that mean very LIFE itself, to Americans, and the West, over the principles of evil. The Jewish peoples and many others, of Europe paid a terrible price in Europe looking into the evil face of nazism, (which is so close to islam that it had division of muslims), that meant their very lives, that we Americans in recovery from the depression, took way too long to come to our senses to beat the nazis down to the ground!

America did look into the very face of that almost identical evil, of nazism, and now yet another generation, must face the worst evil in history yet--a clear super nazism—the islam gang . How well will this new generation measure up, while they largely are gullible enough to yet dare, to call islam, a religion?

Jan, I may have been a bit over the top with Wellington, but you don't know my first encounter with him.

He has of course assumed the role of the innocent Martyr with all your commiserations, but he is anything but. He seems to assume, or at least he did with me, that he and his select band of merry men are the keepers of the faith and ultimate truth and morality on this site and any newcomer daring to offer any view even slightly varying from his is to be attacked viciously. I told him where he could get off and he hasn't bothered me much since.

As for your statement that I did not respond in any "substantive way", that is simply not true. I may have been a little sarcastic but my reply to him and others, including Gerald have still not been answered:

@Gerald "Rich there is a 1893 map in Arabic of the Ottoman Empire ...the area of Israel is called " Wilayat Soorya" meaning "Province of Syria."
There is no mention of Palestine.

http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/212689.php"

My Reply "So Gerald what does that map mean?

Does it mean that no one resided in the territory that was later classified as Palestine? Or does this map mean the people who resided there were illegal? Or because of this map they can be kicked out and had no right to be there?

Does that map show Israel? Does the same argument you have for Palestine apply to Israel also? or only to Palestine?

Here is a map which does show Palestine and its dated 1916.

http://www.hartzman.com/Israel/Pre-Mandate%20Era/Sykes-Picot%20Map.jpg"

Jan, I may have been a bit over the top with Wellington, but you don't know my first encounter with him.

He has of course assumed the role of the innocent Martyr with all your commiserations, but he is anything but. He seems to assume, or at least he did with me, that he and his select band of merry men are the keepers of the faith and ultimate truth and morality on this site and any newcomer daring to offer any view even slightly varying from his is to be attacked viciously. I told him where he could get off and he hasn't bothered me much since.

As for your statement that I did not respond in any "substantive way", that is simply not true. I may have been a little sarcastic but my reply to him and others, including Gerald have still not been answered:

@Gerald "Rich there is a 1893 map in Arabic of the Ottoman Empire ...the area of Israel is called " Wilayat Soorya" meaning "Province of Syria."
There is no mention of Palestine.

http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/212689.php"

My Reply "So Gerald what does that map mean?

Does it mean that no one resided in the territory that was later classified as Palestine? Or does this map mean the people who resided there were illegal? Or because of this map they can be kicked out and had no right to be there?

Does that map show Israel? Does the same argument you have for Palestine apply to Israel also? or only to Palestine?

Here is a map which does show Palestine and its dated 1916.

http://www.hartzman.com/Israel/Pre-Mandate%20Era/Sykes-Picot%20Map.jpg"

To clarify:

I was distressed and frustrated and angered by the anti-Jewish racism expressed by the commenter "Rich".

My seeing the anti-Jewish racism expressed by the commenter "Rich" reflected, to me, the very many Western anti-Jewish racists in the world.

Even only seventy years after the Holocaust; And even after approximately two thousand years of unparalleled and unsurpassed evil done by Christian Europeans to the Jewish people; And still there is this anti-Jewish racism from Westerners -- culturally Christian-European people -- Christian and post-Christian.

The vicious malice and callousness and stupidity and dishonesty of Western anti-Jewish racists is extremely distressing to me and maddeningly frustrating to me. The vicious malice and callousness and stupidity and dishonesty of Western anti-Jewish racists is hard for me to bear.

And most Western people who are actually verbally defending the Jewish people now against the Islamic Jihad are Christian and, in some cases, "culturally Christian" ("culturally Christian" like "cultural Muslims" are "culturally Muslim"), and an have emotional and psychological attachment to Christianity -- an inherently racist anti-Jewish ideology -- which has colored the nature of Western culture for almost two thousand years -- whose nature is now causing the current Western vilification of Israel and which is now, as part of that, causing the current Western collusion with the Islamic supremacist political movement. To say nothing of the legion of Western anti-Jewish racists such as the commenter "Rich".

I'm in a difficult situation -- because I, and the, I think, relatively very few other Jewish people such me, have no real allies. Most Westerners are against the Jewish people, and those who aren't refuse to acknowledge the anti-Jewish racism of the West, and almost all Jewish people have Stockholm syndrome or, in some other cases, are simply "gung-ho" anti-Jihadists who don't really understand all of the factors involved.

----

The comments by the commenter "Rich" which I replied to, and my replies to the commenter "Rich":

"Rich": http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/08/obama-again-spreads-false-claim-that-thomas-jefferson-hosted-first-ramadan-iftar-dinner-at-white-hou.html#comment-896953

"Rich": http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/08/obama-again-spreads-false-claim-that-thomas-jefferson-hosted-first-ramadan-iftar-dinner-at-white-hou.html#comment-896968

"Rich": http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/08/obama-again-spreads-false-claim-that-thomas-jefferson-hosted-first-ramadan-iftar-dinner-at-white-hou.html#comment-896977

"Rich"": http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/08/obama-again-spreads-false-claim-that-thomas-jefferson-hosted-first-ramadan-iftar-dinner-at-white-hou.html#comment-896985

"Rich": http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/08/obama-again-spreads-false-claim-that-thomas-jefferson-hosted-first-ramadan-iftar-dinner-at-white-hou.html#comment-896988

"Rich": http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/08/obama-again-spreads-false-claim-that-thomas-jefferson-hosted-first-ramadan-iftar-dinner-at-white-hou.html#comment-896992

Me: http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/08/obama-again-spreads-false-claim-that-thomas-jefferson-hosted-first-ramadan-iftar-dinner-at-white-hou.html#comment-897009

"Rich": http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/08/obama-again-spreads-false-claim-that-thomas-jefferson-hosted-first-ramadan-iftar-dinner-at-white-hou.html#comment-897012

Me: http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/08/obama-again-spreads-false-claim-that-thomas-jefferson-hosted-first-ramadan-iftar-dinner-at-white-hou.html#comment-897013

"Rich": http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/08/obama-again-spreads-false-claim-that-thomas-jefferson-hosted-first-ramadan-iftar-dinner-at-white-hou.html#comment-897022

Me: http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/08/obama-again-spreads-false-claim-that-thomas-jefferson-hosted-first-ramadan-iftar-dinner-at-white-hou.html#comment-897023

"Rich": http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/08/obama-again-spreads-false-claim-that-thomas-jefferson-hosted-first-ramadan-iftar-dinner-at-white-hou.html#comment-897033

"Me": http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/08/obama-again-spreads-false-claim-that-thomas-jefferson-hosted-first-ramadan-iftar-dinner-at-white-hou.html#comment-897047

"Rich" (In an amazing seeming-to-be turnabout to reasonability): http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/08/obama-again-spreads-false-claim-that-thomas-jefferson-hosted-first-ramadan-iftar-dinner-at-white-hou.html#comment-897051

"Rich" (A reversal): http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/08/obama-again-spreads-false-claim-that-thomas-jefferson-hosted-first-ramadan-iftar-dinner-at-white-hou.html#comment-897069

Me: http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/08/obama-again-spreads-false-claim-that-thomas-jefferson-hosted-first-ramadan-iftar-dinner-at-white-hou.html#comment-897071

Me: http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/08/obama-again-spreads-false-claim-that-thomas-jefferson-hosted-first-ramadan-iftar-dinner-at-white-hou.html#comment-897074

Me (to Kepha's reply to "Rich"): http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/08/obama-again-spreads-false-claim-that-thomas-jefferson-hosted-first-ramadan-iftar-dinner-at-white-hou.html#comment-897093

Me (in my last main comment, in which I was extremely distressed): http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/08/obama-again-spreads-false-claim-that-thomas-jefferson-hosted-first-ramadan-iftar-dinner-at-white-hou.html#comment-897104

Clarification:

"...And most of the few Western people who are actually verbally defending the Jewish people now against the Islamic Jihad are Christian (contemporary "revised"-Christian (now non-anti-Jewish Christian)) and, in some cases, "culturally Christian" ("culturally Christian" like "cultural Muslims" are "culturally Muslim"), and (therein) have an emotional and psychological attachment to Christianity..."

Correction:

A correct link (to one of my comments in reply to the commenter "Rich" -- a comment by me to which I, in my recent previous comment, gave, instead, by mistake, a link to a comment by "Rich")):

Me: http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/08/obama-again-spreads-false-claim-that-thomas-jefferson-hosted-first-ramadan-iftar-dinner-at-white-hou.html#comment-897019

Daniel Bielak I have never commented on any of your comments, but since you insist on yapping on about me.. here are my comments about you. I think youre nuts. Crazy. Off your rocker. And that's the first and last thing I have to say about you. I have no wish to converse with you. Adieu

The commenter "Rich":

O Issued personal insults (1) (2) to a commenter (wildjew) who is Jewish who has expressed that he has supported Romney but who expressed concerns (1) (2) about Romney's choice of a racist anti-Jewish anti-Israeli foreign policy advisor

O Accused the religion of the Jewish people of being "supremacist and violent", and equated the religion of the Jewish people with Islam, and, in doing so, said Jewish people and Muslims need to "embrace humanity"

O Implied that there are "Jewish extremists" who engage in "killing Palestinians".

O Implicitly accused (1) (2) Jewish people of thinking/saying that the group of Arab people who are now called "The Palestinians" aren't human and don't have rights.

O denied the fact that the group of Arab people who are now called "The Palestinians" began to be called "The Palestinians", and began to be referred to as being a peoplehood, for the sole purpose of destroying the nation of the Jewish people, and claimed that the stating of that fact was a lie, and propagated the lie that there has existed a nation called "Palestine", and that there has existed, in such a nation, a people called "Palestinians", and implied that such a people were the ancestors of the group of Arab people who are now called "The Palestinians".

O Wrote ad hominen personal insults (to unspecified (however, apparently, to wildjew and myself)) (to Wellington) (to LemonLime) to commenters who responded to, and refuted (oregonjake) (sheik yer'mami) (myself (1) (2) (3)) (Wellington) (dumbledoresarmy) (LemonLime), those lies which he propagated

O Yet wrote: "...I support Israel..."

Here is one of my responses to the commenter "Rich".


You said :

''He has of course assumed the role of the innocent Martyr with all your commiserations, but he is anything but. He seems to assume, or at least he did with me, that he and his select band of merry men are the keepers of the faith and ultimate truth and morality on this site and any newcomer daring to offer any view even slightly varying from his is to be attacked viciously. I told him where he could get off and he hasn't bothered me much since.''

Kindly provide some proof of your assertions.

Incidentally, this thread is about Obama's rubbish about islam, not Israel or 'the pooor palestinians.' Who *chose* to leave. Those remaining have political representation in the Knesset, and far more civil rights than they would have in any islamic cess pool.

Rather:

He accused the religion of the Jewish people of being "supremacist".

To be attacked viciously? Oh, c'mon. And, oh yeah, your telling me where to "get off" sure put the fear of God in me. Oh brother.

Cant provide proof - too lengthy no time, hidden god knows where.

"Incidentally, this thread is about Obama's rubbish about islam.."

Exactly and that is precisely what I commented about. Here is a President whose truthfulness and loyalty is in doubt, promoting the Muslim Brotherhood, the sworn enemy of western democracies, wherever he can and there are loons who are unhappy with the fact that a prospective alternate President doesn't come out and say "Islam and all Muslims are F$%^k*&g B@#t^&ds! and whatever Israel and Jews might say and do I will endorse as I am just a lackey of theirs".

Anything short of that and he is the devil incarnate. One loon even has said .. read above... that he wont vote for either, thereby ensuring that the proven liar will be re-elected.

Rich,

You wrote:

"...there are loons who are unhappy with the fact that a prospective alternate President doesn't come out and say "Islam and all Muslims are F$%^k*&g B@#t^&ds! and whatever Israel and Jews might say and do I will endorse as I am just a lackey of theirs"


Choosing anti-Jewish racists as foreign policy advisors is not the same as not saying: ""Islam and all Muslims are F$%^k*&g B@#t^&ds!"

And what a President of the United States of America will do toward Israel and toward 'the Palestinian movement' is what will have the most influential consequences in the world.

And, btw, what a President of the United States of America will do toward Israel and toward 'the Palestinian movement' is somewhat indicative of what a President of the United States of America will do toward the Islamic supremacist movement in the United States of America.

And, btw, what a President of the United States of America will do toward Israel and toward 'the Palestinian movement' is indicative of the morality of that President of the United States of America.

And, btw, unless something happens that would show that a Romney administration would be as bad or even worse for Israel, and, therein, for the entire world, than a second term Obama administration, I am preferring Romney over a second term Obama administration. And if something happens that would show that a Romney administration would be as bad or even worse for Israel, and, therein, for the entire world, than a second term Obama administration, I won't vote.

----

And that statement which you made is another expression of the holding of antipathetic bigoted wrong beliefs about and toward, and the feeling of antipathy toward, the Jewish people.

----

And to address your previous antipathetic condescending perverse remarks about the Jewish people:

As I wrote earlier:

The ancestral religion of the Jewish people, Judaism, is a chauvinistic religion. However, the ancestral religion of the Jewish people, Judaism, unlike the religion Christianity, and unlike the religious and political ideology and system of government Islam, is not a supremacist, nor imperialist, religion.

Furthermore:

Almost all Jewish people -- in Israel and outside of Israel -- are secular. And very many Jewish people are atheist or agnostic or non-theist.

Furthermore:

What is referred to as "Western culture" was founded on the beneficial main moral principals of the ancestral religion of the Jewish people -- beneficial moral principals such as the beneficial moral principal of The Golden Rule, and the beneficial moral principals included in the Ten Commandments, etc. And the ideas of the European Enlightenment were founded largely on the ideas developed by Jewish people such as Baruch Spinoza. And Jewish people, more than most other people, have fully embraced the ideas of the European Enlightenment. And modern Western culture -- in science, philosophy, literature, music, art, etc. -- has been contributed to hugely by, and developed largely by, Jewish people.

Western culture is Jewish culture.

Or, rather:

Unless something happens that would show that a Romney administration will be as bad or even worse for Israel, and, therein, for the entire world, than a second term Obama administration, I am preferring Romney over a second term Obama administration. And if something happens that would show that a Romney administration will be as bad or even worse for Israel, and, therein, for the entire world, than a second term Obama administration, then I won't vote.

----

And, I don't think that anything has happened that would show that a Romney administration will be as bad or even worse for Israel, and, therein, for the entire world, than a second term Obama administration.

At least that's what I hope.

And, at this time, I don't think that anything will happen that would show that a Romney administration will be as bad or even worse for Israel, and, therein, for the entire world, than a second term Obama administration.

At least that's what I hope.

I would like for people to make sure that a Romney administration will not be as bad and will not be even worse for Israel, and, therein, for the entire world, than a second term Obama administration.

Rich,

wildjew was just expressing a legitimate concern.

And you jumped all over him using malicious personal attacks, and as part of your doing that you expressed the holding of bigoted antipathetic wrong views about, and the feeling of antipathy toward, the Jewish people.

You could have, instead, thought about the concerns that wildjew brought up, and, if you knew information that would alleviate those concerns, you could have written information that would alleviate those concerns. And, in any case, you could have done actions that would contribute to alleviating the concerns that wildjew brought up.

That's all.

That's mainly what all of this was about.

Well, at least, that's what started all of this.

But, in any case, let's wish for the best. And let's do beneficial actions that will lead to good results.

And, to everyone, I apologize if I caused any harm.

I thought of a good campaign slogan for Romney's campaign:

Obama is so abysmally bad, even Romney manages, just barely, to be marginally better. Vote Romney!.

LemonLime,

Yeah, I think I like it. :)

But I think that something more positive would be better. :)

Add, I think that Romney just isn't very knowledgable about the situation that Israel is in. And if it's true about Jim Baker, at least for now, I think that Romney and his team maybe just looked around, in their political environment, the Republican establishment, and saw who was there -- Jim Baker. That's just who was there -- in their political environment.

But, I think that Romney's trip to Israel and his positive true words about Israel in Israel were a good sign.

And he seems to me like a good guy. A decent guy.

Those are just my two cents.

Or, rather:

"James Baker"

----

And I think that some people need to inform Romney about what in fact is the case.

...To get a better foreign policy team together.

So rich, Rich, that you can't provide proof but yet make the accusation nonetheless. Huh, do you see how this is not adequate? And may I add that someone like you accusing someone like me of Alzheimer's and then complaining about being viciously attacked has projection written all over it. Think you can grasp at least this much?

Off-topic in a specific way, but on-topic in a general way -- and important:

The Glazov Gang - Not for Conservatives Only (Hosted by Josh Brewster)

Josh Brewster
Dwight Schultz
Susan Olsen
Eric Allen Bell

Part 1 of 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcM07k5Urss
Part 2 of 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SS8PV3ZPikU
Part 3 of 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7G7oIwy298o

----

And, thank you, Wellington, and dumbledoresarmy, and oregonjake, and sheik yer'mami, and LemonLime, and TJFREEDOMJIHAD, and wildjew, and Jan.

And thank you all of my fellow Americans.

And thank you Wellington, and dumbledoresarmy, and oregonjake, and sheik yer'mami, and LemonLime, and TJFREEDOMJIHAD, and wildjew, and Jan, and gravenimage, and everyone else here who supports Israel.

And thank you, exsgtbrown.

"I took LemonLime to mean that the teacher might experience certain uncomfortable and illegal feelings rather than LemonLime himself."

Let's hope to Allah he doesn't flail around for a Zbigniew Brzezinski (as a way, perhaps, to shore up his "liberal" bonafides).

Woops -- man I'm getting sloppy.

Daniel, that last comment I typed referred to your comment about Romney and James Baker. I mistakenly pasted in a previous quote from you (which I already responded to on another thread).

LemonLime,

"Let's hope to Allah he doesn't flail around for a Zbigniew Brzezinski (as a way, perhaps, to shore up his "liberal" bonafides)."

Oh yeah. Absolutely.

Someone really needs to inform Romney about the situation that Israel is in and about the general larger Islamic Jihad -- the Muslim Brotherhood (and its front groups in the U.S.), the OIC, the regime in Iran (and its front groups in the U.S.). I hope that he didn't pick James Baker and Henry Kissinger knowingly. Someone really need to inform him.

And I was thinking, who would be good to get in there somewhere: Newt Gingrich. As Secretary of State.

----

"Woops -- man I'm getting sloppy.

"Daniel, that last comment I typed referred to your comment about Romney and James Baker. I mistakenly pasted in a previous quote from you (which I already responded to on another thread)."

I make such mistakes a lot. :)

Dear Wellington,

Please don't let "Rich" The Insulter get you down. The Insulter got me down too. But I got up again. And when I was down I wrote some things which I think may have caused harm, and I'm sorry about that. I apologize. I apologize to you, and I apologize to everyone else. I appreciate the support of everyone here who is a support to me.

Best wishes,

Dan

''Cant provide proof - too lengthy no time, hidden god knows where.''

You're a disgrace. Put up or shut up.

Daniel, you have nothing to apologise for.

Long live Israel !

Rich wrote, replying to Wellington:

Wellington you are obviously suffering from Alzheimer’s, not surprising at your age.
..............................

Both a disgusting ad hominem attack—and one that could not be more ludicrous, in any case. Wellington is one of the most erudite and astute posters here.

He refers to LemonLime as a "yellow slime ball" for contrasting "Palestinian" attacks with Israeli defense.

He then goes on to insult Daniel Bielak and Wildjew, without making any substantive points himself regarding the "Palestinian" people, and how, exactly, they differ from the rest of the Levantine Muslim population.

The original use of the term "Nakba" (catastrophe) did not refer to the creation of Israel, but of Levantine Arabs being separated by the Balfour Declaration from Syria, which they considered themselves part of at the time.

The term "Palestinian" was never used to describe a sub-group of Levantine Muslim Arabs until after 1967, when it became politically expedient to do so.

Thank you, Jan.

I appreciate your support to me very much.

And I appreciate your support of Israel very much.

Dear gravenimage,

Thank you for your support. I appreciate it very much.

And in my previous message, what I meant to write, and what I meant, was, and what I mean is:

Western culture is Jewish culture. Jewish culture is Western culture.

I will not shut up. You may if you feel like it. Wellington has not denied the encounter with me. He has characterised it differently. If it is so easy for it to be found - let him find it.

I did say my comments to him were a bit over the top (Alzheimer’s). But I pointed out the flaws in his argument against me. These have not been answered because they are true.

He maybe an intellectual giant compared to the rest of you. Its all a matter of relativity.

What can you expect when you get comments like (paraphrasing) - I have thought of a great Romney slogan to ensure his victory "Obama is so abysmally bad, even Romney manages, just barely, to be marginally better. Vote Romney!"

or another intellectual

"the religious ideology Christianity holds, as a tenet of that religious ideology, a malicious racist wrong view which falsely accuses an actual ethnic and cultural social group of having killed the deity of that religious ideology; and the religious ideology Christianity holds, as a tenet of that religious ideology, a malicious racist wrong view which falsely accuses the members of the actual ethnic and cultural social group which the religious ideology Christianity falsely accuses of having killed the deity of that religious ideology of being inherently evil.

Furthermore, it has been self-professed adherents of the religious ideology Christianity who, other than self-professed adherents of the ideology Islam, have done the most evil in known human history."

Or

"The ancestral religion of the Jewish people, Judaism, is a chauvinistic religion. However, the ancestral religion of the Jewish people, Judaism, unlike the religion Christianity, and unlike the religious and political ideology and system of government Islam, is not a supremacist, nor imperialist, religion."

And "graven image" while replying to me says "He refers to LemonLime as a "yellow slime ball" for contrasting "Palestinian" attacks with Israeli defense."

If you reply to me graven image address me by my name Rich or Richard, its my real name.

I referred to him as a yellow slimeball not because he contrasting "Palestinian" attacks with Israeli defense but because he replied to me saying "Who is this "Rich" fellow anyway? He suddenly appears, like "Jon"
(and so many others) of yesteryear, to pretend to weigh in on the pro-"Palestinian" side of this issue in a reasonable and intelligent way, weaving a complex sophistical tissue of half-truths, disinformation and probably not a few outright lies."

And I stand by everything I said about the Palestinians. They have a right to a homeland. You are bunch of bigots if you say they dont.

Thomas Jefferson being intelligent and wanting to know his enemy, read the Koran to better understand his enemies way of thinking and afterward ordered the military to attack the Islamic enemy; The U.S. Military then defeated the Islamic enemy. The first verse of the Marine Corps Hymn mentions this battle. America has always been a friend to the Jewish People. Some tell half truths mix with lies and present as fact. God Bless the United States of America and Israel.

A brilliant little piece of deconstruction of the Arab/ Muslim Narrative that has been so resoundingly successful throughout the western world since the 1970s.


http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/a-palestinese-lexicon/

Philippe Assouline - "A Palestinese Lexicon"

AUGUST 13, 2012, 3:21 PM


More on the blatant Mohammedan rewriting of history ( the same act of falsifying, fundamentally, as we see in this business of Thomas Jefferson and the supposed iftar dinner)

http://www.newenglishreview.org/blog_direct_link.cfm/blog_id/43420

Friday, 10 August 2012
Denial Runs Deep in Hebron


And as for this belief that the 'Palestinian' Arab Muslims belong inseparably to and originate from an 'ancestral homeland' that is properly the land between the Jordan and the Mediterranean, though they may be given, as an interim measure, for an Arab Islamic state of 'palestine', both the Jerusalem Old City area (with all its ancient Jewish sites both religious and historic) and pretty much all of Judea and Samaria, with all of *their* ancient pre-Islamic Jewish/ Hebrew sites both religious and historic, and that they cannot possibly be asked to simply settle down amongst other Arab Muslims in other parts of the Levant, Middle East and North Africa, let's see where some of them say that their ancestors *really* came from...

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/3389.htm


#3389 - Hamas Minister of the Interior and of National Security Fathi Hammad Slams Egypt over Fuel Shortage in Gaza Strip, and Says: "Half of the Palestinians Are Egyptians and the Other Half Are Saudis"

Excerpt:

Personally, half my family is Egyptian. We are all like that. More than 30 families in the Gaza Strip are called Al-Masri ["Egyptian"]. Brothers, half of the Palestinians are Egyptians and the other half are Saudis.

"Who are the Palestinians? We have many families called Al-Masri, whose roots are Egyptian. Egyptian! They may be from Alexandria, from Cairo, from Dumietta, from the North, from Aswan, from Upper Egypt. We are Egyptians. We are Arabs. We are Muslims. We are a part of you."

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