Robert Spencer in the Los Angeles Times: Islam's critics won't be silenced

The Los Angeles Times has just posted my response to Nathan Lean's nasty hit piece that ran the other day. You can find my fuller response here. And one last question: Osama bin Laden praised Noam Chomsky. Does that make Noam Chomsky responsible for Osama's bloody jihad, including the murders of 3,000 Americans on September 11, 2001? By Nathan Lean's logic, Chomsky would indeed be responsible. But you will never hear Lean saying that -- and that in itself exposes his real agenda.

"Islam's critics won't be silenced," my piece in the Los Angeles Times today:

Nathan Lean wants "society" to take action against those who stand for freedom and human rights against jihad, Sharia and Islamic supremacism, for we "must be stopped." This is a veiled but clear call for restrictions on our freedom of speech. By publishing it on its Aug. 26 Op-Ed page, The Times is working against its own interests. For my opinions are certainly politically incorrect today, but if Lean succeeds in getting them criminalized, editors at The Times might find one day that they too hold an opinion unacceptable to those in power.

Lean thinks that "society" should act against my colleague Pamela Geller and me because the Norwegian mass murderer Anders Behring Breivik cited us in his manifesto. But actually, Breivik cited many, many people, including Barack Obama, John F. Kennedy and Thomas Jefferson -- who are never blamed for Breivik's murders. Also swept under the rug is the fact that Breivik’s manifesto is ideologically incoherent: So far was he from being a doctrinaire counter-jihadist that he wanted to aid Hamas and ally with jihad groups. Brevik’s real inspiration for his violence was, by his own account, Al Qaeda, as becomes clear in his manifesto when he spends 25 pages quoting extensively from the Koran and other Islamic sources. I am no more responsible for Breivik than the Beatles are for Charles Manson.

Indeed, the whole attempt to smear Geller and me with Breivik’s murders rests on several leaps of illogic and unstated assumptions. Even if Breivik’s views really were exactly the same as ours, would it therefore hold that if someone commits violence in the name of an idea, that idea is thereby discredited and must be driven out of the public discourse? In that case, precious few ideas would be left, since people at one time or another have committed violence in the name of virtually every cause under the sun.

In any case, if ideas that were deemed to lead to violence really were silenced, the proponents of a supposedly peaceful Islam that Lean is so anxious to protect and defend would be silenced as well. After all, Lean admits that Geller and I denounced Breivik's violence. But that is not enough for him. The whole thrust of his piece is the claim that what we say and do inspires other people to do violence. Now, that is not in the slightest degree true of what Geller and I say and do, but it is certainly true of the many, many imams worldwide who openly teach that Muslims should wage war against unbelievers, and also true of those who don’t teach violence openly, but do teach intolerance of those outside the accepted circle (which, incidentally, Lean teaches as well). And if we denounce violence but must nevertheless be silenced, then so also must peaceful Muslims.

Lean ignores the inconvenient fact that when Muslims engage in violence, they repeatedly justify that violence by reference to mainstream Muslim understandings of Islamic texts and teachings, and peaceful Muslims have not mounted any large-scale movement to oppose them or interpret those texts and teachings in a different way. He pretends instead that it is we who have equated Islam with violence. A few thousand imams preaching from the Koran and Sunnah would beg to differ.

Lean wants speech critical of Islam to "be stopped," and The Times, to its everlasting discredit, publishes this. If Lean succeeds in silencing us, he will have helped usher in the precedent that some groups are above criticism, and a fundamental bulwark against tyranny will have been removed. I’d rather fail in defending freedom than succeed with a legacy like that.

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Well argued and well written, Robert. I stand with you and Pamela, as I'm sure, do your many, many readers. I will continue criticize Islam as the doctrine of evil, five times daily. In jail, if I must.

Excellent analysis!

Even Lean knows there's no chance for any legal method of silencing anti-Islamic speech in America, he is only hoping to discredit the likes of Spencer & Geller and have them branded as bigots or racists but it's too late for that. Too many Americans already know that Islam is evil, and this is not surprising given the two big disadvantages Islam has in free speech America:

(1) The major documents of Islam have been translated.

(2) A lot of people in America can read!

Besides, the obvious rule for how to judge Islam is this:

Judge it not by what smiling Muslims in the West say it's about - they have a vested interest in the West not fearing them or Islam - but judge it by how it is and has been practiced in Muslim lands. It then becomes clear how evil it is.

Nathan Lean is an enemy of the First Amendment. By now, one knows this or should know it. And, of course, those who align themselves with Nathan Lean are also complicit or clueless antagonists of the First Amendment. No exceptions.

The two greatest enemies (yes, "enemies" is an accurate characterization here I would contend) of our time to the basic guarantees outlined in the First Amendment, such as freedom of speech and freedom of religion, are Islam and modern Leftism. Anyone can to dispute this? Go ahead, Muslims or Leftists, give it a shot.

Well stated, Robert.

Very well written. I wonder, Robert, did you study logic formally or does it just come naturally? Your grammar is outstanding as well...never a fault!
(Fan mail...)

Everybody knows that ISLAM can not stand any criticism because it can not be defended. It has no leg to stand on. That is why it has to use force to kill opposition.

One thing ISLAM has that it should be proud of is WESTERN ENABLERS=IDIOTS=LIBERALS. How can these enablers not see that they are being tricked by the most ridiculous ideology of the most ridiculous false prophet?

PAM AND ROBERT = HEROS OF FREEDOM.

I've heard that the LA Times has been having a hard time financially due to declining readership. If this latest publication of offensive drivel is any indication of the tenor of that paper, then I'm not surprised. At least they put Robert's rebuttal in.

You destroy them with the truth as always, Robert. Its almost comical to hear these fools try to match wits with you. Keep up the good work. We need you. I got your back brother.

Robert Spencer for president!

Excellent chance for many readers to read Spencer in an MSM venue -- and a sterling essay.

I have only one demurrer, re: Chomsky: while he was of course not directly responsible for bin Laden's attack(s), and while Lean no doubt loves him, Chomsky is hardly less of an enemy of freedom-loving societies than is any Islamic terrorist; and he's a parasitical hypocrite on top of that -- enjoying millions from speeches and books and tenured professorship in a major university in the country he despises, and receiving financial support for decades apparently from the Pentagon which he otherwise considers evil. He has contributed incalculably to the war of ideas -- on the wrong side.

I think the LA Times should get their props for printing Mr. Spencer's excellent rebuttal. When they ran the original Nathan Lean hit-piece, they allowed him freedom-of-speech to speak-up about...his disdain for freedom-of-speech! It would clearly be expecting too much from Lean to appreciate the irony in that...

Everybody knows that ISLAM can not stand any criticism because it can not be defended. It has no leg to stand on. That is why it has to use force to kill opposition.


This, +1M!

'German Copyright Firm Plans to Out Porn Pirates

... Urmann and Colleagues, one of the country's largest intellectual property law firms, has even hinted on focusing on those who may have downloaded at embassies of Arab countries'

http://www.xbiz.com/news/153092

In those arab embassies the only thing they download is child porn, following the examples and teachings of Pedohammed.

I myself am amazed at how all of these people who cast blame upon a few people out of the hundreds that Brievik quoted, and the 11 sites out of the hundreds he visited, always fail to aknowledge that he is obviously a paranoid schizophrenic.

The original evaluation found that he had the speech patterns, movements and life history of a paranoid scizophrenic.

http://www.document.no/2012/03/forensic-psychiatric-statement-anders-behring-breivik-x/

That enraged the general public who seemed to think a life in an institution for the criminally insane was somehow nicer than prison (it's not). And being deemed insane was somehow getting off (as if spending your whole life amongst the mad with no possibility for release ever is somehow enviable).

So another psychiatrist was sent to evaluate him and found, in record time I might add, that he was sane and could be punished, thus satisfyig the public, who knew as much about abnormal psychology as they knew about institutions for the criminally insane.

Brievik's illness became evident when he dropped out of highschool for no reason. He claimed to try to develop various businesses. When the last supposed business "failed" he moved into his mothers house where he could not even get it together to help with the laundry. Instead he spent all day playing video games and writing his "manifesto" - more on that below.

Schizophrenia is when the neurons fire randomly. This causes perceptions and cognitions to be uncontrollable. Thoughts become jumbled, there can be audio or visual hallucinations. Thinking becomes associational, like in a dream or when under the effects of a hallucinogen.

This causes anxiety in the sufferer. Starting at the onset sufferers can become obsessed with order, purity and control, often manifested in a desire to control their physical appearance. Crash diets and obsessive fitness routines are not unknown as the sufferer tries to develop order in the exterior world as a reaction to the loss of order in their internal world.

When it gets worse they often start writing journals that "will explain everything". The room of an ex girlfriends schizophrenic brother is piled high with these jornals.

Brieviks "manifesto" is the 21st century version of that. In it we can read about how his mother and sister are sluts, have sex with minorities and have venerial diseases. This is not the sort of thing one finds in political manifestos. BUT IT IS EXACTLY WHAT IS FOUND IN THE JOURNALS OF PARANOID SCHIZOPHRENICS ALL THE TIME. Sexaul paranoia about others is a feature of paranoid schizophrenia.

Now I come to my actual point. Schizophrenics are uncomfortable with their deteriorating mental cohesion. But because their thinking is uncontrolled, they can't see that it is themselves who are the source of the anxiety so they externalize their discomfort into disjointed associational conspiracies. (like when we dream, everyting in the dream is something about ourselves)

The paranoid schizophrenic believes if these conspiracies are defeated then "purity" and "order" can be achieved. But it is always the purity and order within their own minds that they really want to regain.

THAT was Brieviks real motivation and his only motivation.

He could have developed an obsession about anything, atributed the loss of "order" and "purity" to anything - and still commited a horrific atrocity.

---------------------------------------------------------

Also- schizophrenia isn't just switched on and off, though it can be precipitated in predisposed individuals by stress and trauma. People cam be normal for years befor the onset, Tehy can degrade slowly from early on, and they can live lives where they are not quite schizphrenic but are extremely eccentric, with odd beliefs and with eccentric manners of speech and movement. Such people are said to have Schizotypal Personality Disorder- which can eventually turn into schizophrenia.

The police and lawyers who interacted with Brievik remarked upon just this sort of extreme eccentricity of speech and general manner.

So it is possible for his illness to have progressed slowly over time OR he had Schizotypal Personality Disorder that had slowly turned into paranoid schizophrenia.

The above was not meant to negate the horror of what happened. And not being able to blame the actual person who did it must emotionally intolerable for the poor family members who have to live with the memory.

And since he's so crazy and has little to no chance of significant recovery, it doesn't really matter where they stick him. He'll still get meds and psychiatric treatment in prison. If putting him in jail makes people feel better then it is more compassionate to the victims familes to plop his nutty ass in jail.

But using the behavior of such an obviously insane person to argue something about the actions of sane people is fundamentally dishonest.

What astounds about Breivik is that someone can methodically walk across an island community and shoot one person after another to death, and still be treated with the respect of being a citizen. Breivik probably has a better life now, and into his years in the future in cushy Norwegian prisons, than he had before he did his killing spree.

Nathan Lean wants "society" to take action against those who stand for freedom and human rights against jihad, Sharia and Islamic supremacism, for we "must be stopped." This is a veiled but clear call for restrictions on our freedom of speech. By publishing it on its Aug. 26 Op-Ed page, The Times is working against its own interests. For my opinions are certainly politically incorrect today, but if Lean succeeds in getting them criminalized, editors at The Times might find one day that they too hold an opinion unacceptable to those in power.
......................................

So true. Those "blasphemy" laws cut both ways...

More:

Lean wants speech critical of Islam to "be stopped," and The Times, to its everlasting discredit, publishes this. If Lean succeeds in silencing us, he will have helped usher in the precedent that some groups are above criticism, and a fundamental bulwark against tyranny will have been removed. I’d rather fail in defending freedom than succeed with a legacy like that.
......................................

Actually, this can be seen as a call for a several ugly things—ipso facto "blasphemy" laws barring speaking out against "protected" subjects such as Islam; a call for the "politically correct" to smear those who do speak out against the evil of Jihad, as Lean himself is doing here; and a hint at committing violence against those who do speak out. This last might not be clear, except that it is such a common tactic of pious Muslims against their critics.

Bravo to Robert Spencer—and I'm glad that the LA Times at least had the decency to allow him a rebuttal, after publishing Lean's vicious hit piece.

Great article, Nathan Leans (what an ironic name for such a chubby little boy) article needed to be debunked. On the LA Times there is a relentless little troll posting as "Truth Before Logic" and then as "Truth requires curiosity" spouting BS out of every orifice, who is in dire need of a verbal shredding

Hmmm......Excellent article! Looks like Nathan's having a lean time of it, at the moment. And, for sure, it's going to get leaner for Nathan, and Islam!

Clown!

Clearly, I am on my own in regards to Jihad Watch and all its members with what I'm about to say; but I do not condemm Anders Breivik. I condemn his choice of target to a degree due to their age, but his actions were an act of brutally-pure, passionate love for his nation, his race and of Western civilisation.

Why should Muslims be able to support Hamas, the Taliban and Al-Qaeda, and we can't support OUR extreme Freedom Fighters?
,
Look into yourselves, deep-down. And you will see that his manifesto is correct. It is far from 'incoherent'.

He is my brother. And I love him like a fellow brother.

Obviously, I would never carry out such an attack. I wouldn't know how to even if I wanted to; and I certainly do not want to be in prison for the rest of my life - or at ALL.

But the fact remains: if there were a million Breiviks, everything could be changed.

I, for one, respect him, love him and understand him. But, I could never kill 'innocent' people, and lose my freedom.

As I said, and for any reporters watching etc, this is MY own view. And is the opposite of Jihad Watch's and members.

I'm not violent, I'm not a fascist, I'm not a nazi and I am not 'far-Right'.

I am a non-religious Nationalist.

That was an excellent defense of Free Speech Mr. Spencer. Thank you.

Truthiocity, thanks for the explanation of schizophrenia and how it explains Anders Brievik's personality and actions. I can't believe he only got 21 years in jail ! I have actually encountered someone like this recently and as I listened to him ramble on, it became increasingly obvious that his paranoia about so-called conspiracies against him (though he didn't use that word) were all in his own mind.

This smear will probably continue to be used against Robert Spencer and Pamela Geller regardless of how many times it is refuted. That is what their opponents are counting on. Just as Tommy Robinson continues to be called a 'Football Hooligan' in British newspapers, they believe that if they repeat a lie long enough they can accomplish their goal of making the public believe it too. But the newspapers don't have as much sway over the public's mind as they use to and the Internet and it's preservation of free speech will continue to undermine their efforts at thought control.

The bottom line: are those who say that Anders Breivik was inspired by Robert Spencer and Pamela Geller's writing ALSO wiling to say that Islamic terrorists were inspired by books such as the Q'uran, containing lines such as Quran 9:29? Here it is below:

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Why are Spencer and Geller so often cited as inspirations for Breivik, but such Quranic verses, which EXPLICITLY incite their readers to commit acts of violence against other religions, NEVER cited by mainstream media as reasons for Islamic Jihadists committing their daily terror attacks around the World?

"his actions were an act of brutally-pure, passionate love for his nation, his race and of Western civilisation."

Were they?! He targetted a bunch of teenagers going to a youth camp. A left-wing youth camp, but a youth camp nonetheless. Those kids were not in any positions of authority, they were not responsible for any decisions for their country, and most were probably mostly looking forward to the evening disco. When older, many may have changed their opinions to be more like our own - just like the Daily Mail editor Paul Dacre was once a Trotskyite.

Then came Breivik and shot them all up in his cowardly act. And the Labour party youth membership numbers exploded. So whose interests was he serving??

Look no further than Nathan Lean's article in the LA Times for the answer to that question.

Breivik committed an act of political violence against political opponents. Is that the type of society we want? See my article on Breivik being a warrior against freedom.

No - Breivik was not a "brother" of any freedom-loving person, which you clearly seem NOT to be... If I were you, I'd seek help.

"At least they put Robert's rebuttal in."
Maybe they thought a bit of controversy would boost readership. Or am I being cynical?

One of the main reason I completely disrespect Muslims is they target innocent by-standerds in the name of Islam-Jihad and they glorify that aspect of it. Breivik is the same jerk. I think you are on the wrong site to ever think he is a hero. Breivik is a scumbag like the Jihadies and the loon-Billy Nathan who is trying to stop the Freedom of speech.

Great response Robert.

"I think the LA Times should get their props for printing Mr. Spencer's excellent rebuttal."
Indeed. Letters to the paper thanking them for posting RS' reply. Who knows, if they see enough interest they might give Robert more opportunities write.
Miracles have happened.

You forgot too mention the neocon republicans in your idiot list !!! After all it was G.W Bush that told us about the peaceful religion of islam right after the worst attack on American soil since Pearl Harbor 1941!!!!

... Wayne R


Hey Wayne,

"W" doesn't get the whole islam thing. He thinks any religion is better than no religion, and he thinks islam is a religion ... wrong on both counts.

I remember I posted a reply to your nonsense once before. You give yourself away with the use of the term neocon.

You voted for barry hussein, current pos muslim POTUS, the first time he ran. You are probably going to vote for him again.

We all understand you out here on Robert's site.

Read some books about islam, like this one,

http://www.steynstore.com/product28.html

Get an original thought.

Stop watching The Ed Show.

Post again out here after you do your homework.

My letter sent to LA Times:

Dear LA Times
Thankyou for posting Robert Spencer's "Islam's critics won't be silenced" in Blowback August 28 2012. It's good to hear BOTH sides of an argument.
Best wishes
Gerard.

(A bit rough I suppose. I'm not too experienced in writing to Newspapers...)

You are voting for the destruction of America...'Fundamentally transforming America', the promise that is a curse...In order to fundamentally change a structure, the old one must be demolished or gutted, so a new structure can be built in it's place, that is what Rasool Obama is doing...Anyone wishing to destroy America is a traitor, a Mahoundian, or a communist type...or possibly all three...

Obviously, I would never carry out such an attack. I wouldn't know how to even if I wanted to; and I certainly do not want to be in prison for the rest of my life - or at ALL.

No, you wouldn't do such a thing...You just want others to do it for you...You think human sacrifice is just fine in support of ideology? Every famous and not so famous despot in history had the same evil idea... Does Allah visit you in your sleep?

You wrote: 'Clearly, I am on my own in regards to Jihad Watch and all its members with what I'm about to say;.......'

Clearly! Now, clear off!

Clown!

It's difficult to respond to garbage, since the nature of garbage consists of only one word...Ugg...From which we get ugly...Lean is a Master of Ugg...That's what he thinks and that's what he writes...The proper response to garbage, is a trash can and a trip to the dump...

Robert is really good at bagging up the garbage...Lean has been bagged...

"Clearly, I am on my own..." Modern England
"Clearly! Now, clear off!" Buraq
Haha. You made me laugh Buraq.

Dear Robert, I am often flummoxed by the sheer ignorance and stupidity, the lack of knowledge of islam that the leftists who want to destroy our nations use in order to smear anyone who expresses disgust for the tenets and practices of Islam. Islamists have infiltrated to the point of extreme degree in our nations governments including Australia's government and this would never have happened 30 or 40 years ago when the world allowed people to think independently and allowed the truth to come out, alas nowadays on both sides of the political spectrum, both sides are so deeply infiltrated by Muslim Brotherhood agents and provocatuers that it is so compromised now our nations defence and intelligence communities will never recover from it. The leftists are determined to destroy democracy and freedoms, so are islamists-they will not allow the truth of Islam to come out. Leftist and islamist unions are rife in the West. God Save our nations from this stealth Jihad. Never give in Robert, I admire you so deeply. I hope one day to even come close to your knowledge. God Bless you mate I will keep you always in my daily prayersxxx

"Nathan Lean". Isn't that a Jewish name? Does he not know that Muslims hate Jews? Is this another instance of suicide: "Death by Islam"? This fellow (if he is Jewish, I don't really know) is supporting an ideology that is vowed to destroy him!!

'' I'm a non-religious nationalist ''
So speaks 'Modern England' . . Maybe you ought to get some religion in your soul, chap.

As long as it's not Islam!
Actually, while not totally against "Revealed Religion", in the face of Islam I find myself sympathetic to those who seek God but are not too interested in "Religion".

Wow!!

In western society we are used to having debates - heated debates at times. And usually we can debate almost anything.

What was happening to freedom was unspeakable.

With accusations like that - at least you should have a comeback - at least you should be able to defend yourself.

Totally pleased!!

::

Lean's request - no doubt at the behest of Reza Aslan [picture not shown] - is in violation of the US Constitution - and opens the way for any Islamic law or intrusion to be issued in without opposition.

In Europe we saw the same pattern - at first large segments of society were called of racists/ other hateful hurtful names - for openly opposing the Islamic intrusion and said religious position. Then gradually came the calls for implementation of Islamic law - 'theocracy' - which if opposed - you would again be labeled a 'racist'.

Although more to do with Islamization of whole societies than terrorism in Europe - for example, if Muslim groups or individuals expressed that something did not fit within their Islamic belief - then the whole society was asked to adapt - those who objected were labeled racist or hateful.

The idea being - to help Muslims integrate - on the cheap. Change society - not the Muslims who wanted no part of it - as it presently stands.

Elections across Europe changed this tempo. And in particular after the Swiss minaret vote - more freedom of speech around Islam was tolerated in Europe.

And things haven't disintegrated into chaos - certainly nothing like those who thought restrictions on speech would prevent a breakdown - had envisioned.

That simply did not happen.

The French have had debates on Islam, the Germans have had a level of debates and the Dutch have certainly had theirs - by force of election.

It is certainly better when everyone speaks - we can learn from each other - as well as choose what we want to believe and make better informed choices. Alternatively we can have a dictatorship - and an Islamic one at that - the Left never win in battle with Islamists - look what happened to the Left in the Iranian Revolution.

*You* are not representative of England, in any way, shape, or form.

Your appalling post merely shows you up for what you are. A nasty piece of humanity; between you and the bin Laden's of this world, there isn't the difference of a pin.

you said:

''Why should Muslims be able to support Hamas, the Taliban and Al-Qaeda, and we can't support OUR extreme Freedom Fighters?''

So, you consider Hamas, the Taliban, and Al-Qaeda, to be ''freedom fighters'', do you ? No, they are **not** freedom fighters, they are vicious, cowardly, murdering scum, who target the small and weak because they haven't the guts to fight like **men**.

The Taliban cut off noses and ears of women, throw acid in their faces, and stone them to death, they burn girl's schools, and poison their water supplies. Hamas spends its money sending rockets into Israel, and using their **own children** as human shields, so that when the Israeli's retaliate, they can accuse them of atrocities. Al-Qaeda was responsible for murdering 3000 innocent Americans.

And you think these scum are **freedom fighters** ?

Breivik deliberately murdered unarmed young people and teenagers. He is **not** a freedom fighter. He is a monstrous, cowardly, piece of **scum**, and I only wish Norway had the death penalty. He gets to live out his miserable life (and I **really** hope it's miserable), but those young people and teenagers he murdered in cold blood have had their lives, their futures, their possibilities, viciously stolen from them, and you say : ''He is my brother. And I love him like a fellow brother.''

You are a disgusting human being. You are not a counter-jihadist. You belong with the jihadists, the suicide bombers, those who ''love death.''

''I, for one, respect him, love him and understand him. But, I could never kill 'innocent' people, and lose my freedom.''

No, because you're a gutless sack of S%!t happy to see someone else do the foul murdering, on what, God help you, you consider to be your behalf.

You don't give a tuppenny damn about freedom, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of conscience, equal rights for all under the law, which is what the counter- jihadist movement stands for. You are nothing but a piece of snot, white supremacist, licking your chops over the foul murder of a bunch of unarmed, defenceless, young people and teenagers.

You make me vomit. And you do not represent **my** England.

There is really only one solution to the Islamisation of Europe (and US) and that is to drive Islam out. Ban it! Get rid of it root and branch!

You are right, Robert. He has been trying to "call us out". But he has failed in his murkey plan to gain "evidence".
What he got was stalwart resistence to Leftism and Islam and a firm recognition of the rights of the individual as enshrined in the Constitution.
Deo gratias.

Well written reply, RS. And you didn't have to get into the left/right debate to make your point.
All should be submitting comments to the LA Times. Here's mine.
.........................................................
The OIC (org of Islaimic states) in the UN seeks to establish a universal legal ideal that prohibits criticism of religion. Where will the LA Times stand on that? With Lean or with Spencer? With the savage or the civilized man?

In Islamic society/states with sharia law there is no freedom of speech or religion. Period. Blasphemy and apostasy are capital offenses. Where do you stand on that, LA Times?

Islamic socities are misogynistic, homophobic and inhumanely repressive. Women and non-muslims are not accorded equal rights under the law. Premarital, homosexual and adulterous sex are capital offenses. Koran 4:34 condones wife beating. Since Mohamad married Aisha when she was 9, the legal age of marriage in many Islamic states, incl Iran, is 9. Wife beating beating and honor killings are a plague. In Islamic Morocco a rapist may go free by offering to marry the victim. http://www.violenceisnotourculture.o...omen-activists.

Though elections are sometimes held (when not a monarchy), there is no separation of church and state in Islamic societies. Unelected officials trump the power of elected officials. Where do you stand on that , LA Times?

Now let's turn to mideast politics? Savage or civilization? And don't lose all credibility by analogyzing Israel's treatment of Arabs with Hitler's of the Jews. Not only do you lose all credibility, it's f**king insulting.

There is a whole lot of dhimmi going on...I'm not sure which is worse, the intentional dhimmi or the dhimmi who does not know he is a dhimmi...sometimes called, a 'useful idiot'...
We are top heavy with useful idiots...The gov, the MSM, the military, loaded up with pure stupidity and a death wish...
Does that remind you of Islam? 'You love Pepsi, we love death'...How foolish, how suicidal for kuffar to line themselves up with that...
Well, they are not taking me with them when they jump off the cliff...I will not submit to dhimmitude in any form...
'Perdurabo', means, 'I shall endure until the end'...The end of dhimmitude and Islamic influence in America...

Robert: I've just read my comment back. And I am disgusted with myself.

Damn! I do not 'love him like a brother' etc. God knows why I said that.

And I know what he did was brutal. I cannot help but feel affinity with him, though.

When I referred to the Taliban, Hamas and Al-Qaeda as 'Freedom Fighters', I meant the fact that they are in the eyes of the Muslims.

Here in Europe, we even have Islamic extremists/supremacists in high positions of power.

We have insidious Islamic extremist groups posing as 'moderate' Muslims.

I could go on.

So, its just frustration. Also, I think its disgusting how the Left etc are using ONE nationalist incident to slander ANY criticiser of Islam and multiculturalism.

Anyway, I'm ashamed of what I said - or rather the disgusting way I said it - and the resulting blasting I've recieved from everyone at Jihad Watch.

I'm sorry. Please delete the comment(s), if you can.

Just to be clear: I meant Hamas, the Taliban and Al-Qaeda are 'Freedom Fighters' in the Muslims eyes.

I know these groups are Islamic terrorist scum. But still, the Muslims - the slight majority in my view - see them as their heroes etc. Which says it all.

Just to be clear: I meant Hamas, the Taliban and Al-Qaeda are 'Freedom Fighters' in the Muslims eyes.

I know these groups are Islamic terrorist scum. But still, the Muslims - the slight majority in my view - see them as their heroes etc. Which says it all.

Obama is finishing up the destruction of America started by others...This is not a four year project...it is obvious your master O is destroying America...He engineered the loss of your freedom with Obamacare along with the sell out Justice Roberts...Obama has made you a slave...in a country our ancestors fought and died for to keep free...Republicans already in office are a disgrace, for their failure to stand up to Rasool his lies, his forgeries, his fraud and his treason...A vote for Rasool Obama is a vote for crime and criminals...

Uh huh...how many is a slight majority?

Damn! I do not 'love him like a brother' etc. God knows why I said that.

In the institution when someone says...'Don't worry, I won't hit you', you keep that person at more than arms length because he has it in his head to hit you, or he wouldn't say that...

And I know - I've always known - that Robert and all Jihad Watch members/readers are steadfastly committed to fighting Islamism/Leftism using peaceful/democratic means.

I'm still shocked at the raw blasting I recieved. Especially from 'Jan', who I suspect is an angry, hormonal feminist or something.

So, yeah: Breivik was brutal to do what he did, but the issues he pointed out - though nothing I didn't know already - are correct: Feminism, Marxism, mass immigration, multiculturalism and the hard-Left. They all must be subdued. And I say 'get fucked' to the Left-wing system that demands we cannot even debate what caused him to do it etc.

Again, I am sorry. (still think Jan went waaaaay too far, though).

The majority, to be more accurate.

I see that "Modern England" is still -- more carefully -- trolling for people to express sympathy for Breivik.

It is not going to happen. Not at Jihad Watch.

But he is illustrative of the lengths that leftist creeps will go to in order to tar this site, and how much cleverer they think they are than they actually are.

Cordially
Robert Spencer

Great article Robert well written and good posts to everyone else. The left will not succeed in forcing us to bow/dhimmi-down to their new Muslim overlords as they have decided to do.

It it because of them that Islam is colonizing the West completely unchallenged. It's just going to make things much uglier the day we all wake up and smell the jihad and do something about it.

Either ways, I will not submit. F--k Islam.

Methinks that Modern England doth apologize too much!

(Thanks to Will Shakespeare)

You wrote, somewhat puzzlingly: 'First off I hate islam and all it stands for with every fiber of my being but not the Arab people!'

Well, good for you! And that's the way everyone here feels. JW is an educational website to inform people of Islam's real agenda: i.e. to deny free speech to everyone, to subjugate women and to enslave the world under Shariah.

So, what's your point? Your post seems to suggest that you're the only one here that doesn't 'hate Arabs', implying that many or all of us do!

To reinforce this impression, you add, 'So, to all you haters ......'

What 'haters'? There aren't any.

You seem to be a trifle mixed up. Or, maybe you're just a mixed up trifle! :))

"Nathan Leans (what an ironic name for such a chubby little boy)..."

He's no Nathan Lane, and he's no David Lean.

Spencer is right: blaming Spencer for Breivik is like blaming the Beatles for Charles Manson.

To ideologically justify oneself in acting violently outside the law is insufferable arrogance; it is to appoint oneself a little dictator. That's Breivik.

In liberal democracies, the only form of unlawful activity that might sometimes be justifiable is non-violent civil disobedience. If we who criticize Islam were to follow Breivik's path, we would be gravediggers of civilization.

Spencer and Geller represent the civilized man, not conceited, murdering, petty dictators like Breivik.

Concerning the stance of "Modern England" about Breivik as can be gleaned in comments above and elsewhere (see quotes below), the situation is more complex than some JWers would seem to have it. We can list all the necessary ingredients that make it complex, and not so simple:

1) The Left is effectively aiding and abetting Islamic apologism, and pernicious Muslims.

2) We have no evidence, however, that any Leftists (outside of a tiny minority who literally join the other side or who treasonously hate the West -- e.g., Noam Chomsky) are doing #1 out of anything other than an ideological confusion, rather than a calmly lucid and willful treason -- literal treason, not its rhetorically hyperbolic extension.

3) #2 does not, of course, mean Leftists should get a free pass and should not be robustly condemned and obstructed within the law. It also, however, does not mean they should be considered on a par with the Muslim enemy, and thus be targets for lethal self-defense.

4) From Breivik's actions (killing pro-Fatah non-Muslim Socialist Leftist Norwegians) and from much of his writings, however compromised some of their arguments may be by his sloppy cut-and-paste job, Breivik does seem to have thought that the "real enemy" is the "Leftist" or "Marxist Left" in the West who are "destroying" the West. His admiration for al Qaeda is arguably tactical, not ideological. He wanted to fight fire with fire. And more pointedly, he wanted to fight the source of the problem -- the wicked "Marxist Left" in the West who are in his mind willfully colluding with the Muslim enemy. And his actions bore that out. If he really hated Muslims, he would have mass-murdered Muslims (there are, unfortunately, plenty in Norway, and a resourcefully obsessed Breivik could have hunted them down); and if he supported Muslims, as Spencer implies, he wouldn't have mass-murdered pro-Fatah Dhimmis, as he did on Utoya Island -- he would have mass-murdered opponents of jihad.

5) If we wish to avoid becoming Breivikian, it won't work by constructing facile arguments that avoid the hard truths of 1-4. All we need to do is hold to the principle that does not hyperbolically demonize the "Left" out of proportion until, in our feverish rhetoric, they morph into a force so bad they become the literal enemy on a par with jihadists -- by which the only logical conclusion would be that we have to fight them no less seriously than we have to fight the jihadists.

I.e., the solution is to dial down our rhetoric about how wicked and demonic the "Leftists" are. They are bad, they are effectively aiding and abetting our Muslim enemy -- but they are not our hot enemy themselves. This is not to rule out the possibility of certain Leftists becoming our enemy; but for that determination, we have to proceed causuistically, on a case by case basis, with a legal standard for what constitutes treason, and evidence it has been committed, followed by appropriately legal non-vigilante action; not wild rumors based on a generalized paranoia bordering on conspiracy theory.

The broader, deeper problem, as I have continually tried to argue, is not the "Left" -- it is precisely the majority of the West who are non-Left -- who are a mish-mash of PC MC, conservative, centrist, and comfortably apolitical, who by their swallowing (and regurgitating) politically correct axioms and by their inaction, facilitate the problem. Without the tacit approval and support of this vast demographically and ideologically complex swath of Western people, Leftists and Muslims wouldn't stand a chance for a New York minute. Long ago, we'd have done the rational things:

1) Deport Muslims

2) Ostracize Leftists (ruining their reputation, careers) and legally punishing the few among them who are ultra-Left, which would include stiff fines and/or prison time.

***

Quotes from "Modern England"

We will relentlessly dehumanize the Leftist/Islamist scum as they have tried to do unto us.
...
The Leftists and the Islamists are old, tired, out-of-date pieces of fucking shit. The 'moderate' Muslims are not much better.

gravenimage in another thread analyzed her concerns about "Modern England" in this comment in which she quotes several comments by him that seem to go over the edge into demonizing the "Left" as equivalent to Muslims:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/06/egypt-muslim-brotherhood-claims-lead-with-69-of-vote.html#comment-886169

gravenimage added that "LemonLime thinks he looks pretty suspicious, as well." -- but I had forgotten I ever had suspicions about him before. I've been on JW so long, it's all becoming a blur.

A quote gravenimage missed (perhaps it came later in time) is the following by "Modern England":

its the SCUM far Left who have facilitated it [the problem of Islam in the West].

Without the backwards, impotent, fascist far Left, this would have been sorted out ages ago.

I think we should start to meet Muslim/Leftist threats head-on.

And:

I don't know who I hate most: the slimy, stinking, out-of-date, scum far Left, or the Islamists.

And:

It shows how Leftist/Muslim propaganda via the internet is being absorbed into the young.

Just another reason why Islamism and Marxism need to be utterly DESTROYED.

Then of course we have the first comment by "Modern England" on this thread here, way up above:

Is it any wonder Breivik did what he did?

The far-Left are creating a potential Breivik every single day.

You try to suppress the native, patriotic people with threats - especially to their family - then you can expect an unstoppable backlash.

Destroy the far-Left.

Not to mention the subsequent one, which I have not yet reviewed along with the likely fallout from other JW commenters, because I wanted to get this comment out.

P.S.:

I also remember (but cannot locate) "Modern England" posting a comment in which he approvingly cited some other blogger who called for hanging (whether literally or not it wasn't clear) certain "traitorous" public officials in the UK.

Snot. .where are your credentials, clever clogs ?

yes. you will not kill anyone. you will just delagate it to to ohers!!! just like the the die hard Jihadists to delagte other jihadist to kill innocent people. what do thing here Modern Day? do you think we are just a bumch of dumb fuck here? or do you think we are a bunch of people who hate others? or do you think simply because we are here opposing an evil idealogy we are racists? you are such an ass. do us all a favor here get D, defenderofislam and the rest of them and go and f... yourselves. this is a much easier task for you. here you are taliking to freedom loving people not haters or racists. I am now going to have a scothc!!!!
M

Wayne,

There are several "tiers"/"factions" among what is called the political Right.

The following is what is my understanding of what is the case.

There is/are:

O The oldschool Republican establishment (The Bush family, etc.)
O Oldschool ideological "Conservatives" (Paleo-Conservatives (Pat Buchannan, etc.))
O Neo-Conservatives
O Intellectual modern "Conservatives" (Classical Liberals (Thomas Sowell, etc.))
O Grass-roots modern "Conservatives" (grass-roots Classical Liberals (Classical Liberal "non-affiliated" ordinary Americans, The (libeled) Tea Party, etc.))

(And some of these groups, in some cases, "overlap"/"blend-together"/"cross-pollinate".)

The following is my understanding of what is the case.

The oldschool Republican establishment ideologically and financially supported the Nazis during the 1930's; and, until the present time, have been engaged in collusion with the petroleum-producing Muslim states in the Middle East; and, since the 1930's, have been, involved with that, engaged in covert anti-Israeli policy

Oldschool ideological Conservatives are ideologically anti-Jewish racists, and White supremacist, and, in general, Christian supremacist.

Neo-Conservatives are ideologues who, in foreign policy, are gung-ho "Hawkish" advocates for "forceful" toppling of undemocratic regimes in the Middle East, and who, economically, are a combination of Social Liberal and Classical Conservative.

Intellectual modern "Conservatives" are authentic Classical Liberals.

Grass-roots modern "Conservatives" are ordinary Americans who hold to the principals of Classical Liberalism.

----

I used to take for granted that I was what I now call "contemporary so-called 'Liberal'". However, after witnessing the behavior of the political Left as a whole, including the contemporary so-called "Liberal" movement/social-group/political-group, for the past ten or so years, and after, subsequently learning facts about the history (origins and past actions) and nature of the political Left, I no longer consider myself to be what I now call "contemporary so-called 'Liberal'". However, neither do I consider myself to be "Conservative". The political views that I now hold are, I think, a balance between Classical Liberalism (freedom of the individual) and Social Liberalism (help to those who need help).

----

Barack Obama personally ideologically supports the contemporary Islamic supremacist political movement. He does so for various reasons (he was brought up with a Third World ideologically "Anti-Colonialist" background and he is, in fact, ideologically an "Anti-Colonialist" ("Anti-Colonialism" is an actual ideology, and the fact the Barack Obama is actually ideologically "Anti-Colonialist" is very important)); and he was brought up largely by actual self-professed Marxists, and, as a young man, he affiliated himself with actual avowed Marxist Socialist subversive political organizations, and, as a young man, he was politically groomed by actual self-professed Marxists Radicals to become a political leader in the U.S.; and he was brought up as "cultural Muslim" (he had an Islamic upbringing for several years as a child)).

The Obama administration has actively supported the Islamic supremacist political movement. The Obama administration officially supported and endorsed, and now officially supports and endorses, the Muslim Brotherhood in the Middle East. The Obama administration refused to support the millions of anti-Islamist Iranian protesters in Iran after the fraudulent election win of the Islamic supremacist regime in the 2009 elections in Iran. The Obama administration is supporting the agenda of, and is colluding with, the OIC (the Organization of Islamic Cooperation (formerly named the Organization of the Islamic Conference) -- a coalition of fifty seven Muslim governments (fifty six Muslim states plus Fatah-PLO-PalestinianAuthority) -- the largest, and controlling, voting bloc in, and the controlling body of, the United Nations). The Obama administration has been completely infiltrated by the Muslim Brotherhood in the U.S. and now actually includes members of the Muslim Brotherhood in the U.S.

You wrote that you oppose Islam. However you wrote that you support Barack Obama. The expressing of that which you expressed contradicts itself.

Gerard

you picked up on George's very sensible statement "I think the LA Times should get their props for printing Mr. Spencer's excellent rebuttal", drew the obvious conclusion:

"Indeed. Letters to the paper thanking them for posting RS' reply. Who knows, if they see enough interest they might give Robert more opportunities write" and then you wrote such a letter.

Well done!

If they get other letters similar to yours in connection to their allowing Mr Spencer to publish his response - letters that are brief, polite, and appreciative of being able to hear both sides of a story - they may indeed be more receptive to truth-speakers in future.

Follow-up, follow-up, follow-up; the more we do this, here and there and everywhere, to journalists, to media outfits, to publishers, to politicians and aspiring politicians, the sooner we will reach a 'tipping point'.

Correction (a qualitative correction, and a typo correction, to my previous comment):

I wrote:

"...who, economically, are a combination of Social Liberal and Classical Conservative. ..."

which should be:

"...who, economically, are, I think, a combination of pseudo-Social-Liberal and Classical Liberal. ..."

Another typo correction (to my previous comment):

I wrote:

"...'Anti-Colonialism' is an actual ideology, and the fact the Barack Obama is actually ideologically 'Anti-Colonialist' is very important..."

which should be:

"...'Anti-Colonialism' is an actual ideology, and the fact that Barack Obama is actually ideologically 'Anti-Colonialist' is very important..."

Wayne

this is just a small stylistic point. But...why so many exclamation marks? Are you posting from something that won't allow you to use a normal full stop?

If not - if you are you are deliberately using exclamation marks - having them at the end of every single sentence is distracting and even annoying to the reader.

One more correction (to my previous message):

I wrote:

"...and, until the present time, have been engaged in collusion with the petroleum-producing Muslim states in the Middle East; and, since the 1930's, have been, involved with that, engaged in covert anti-Israeli policy..."

which should be:

"...and, since the 1930's, until the present time, have been engaged in collusion with the petroleum-producing Muslim states in the Middle East; and, since the 1930's, before the official re-founding of Israel, until the present time, have been, involved with that, engaged in covert anti-Israeli policy..."

Truthiocity

re your posting of August 28 above, at 6:59 pm. (On paranoid schizophrenia, and the many ways in which Breivik fits the pattern).

I think you're right.

Kely

are you new here? If so, welcome - from a fellow Australian. How did you find jihadwatch?

And have you thought about joining Q Society? That's the newly formed Aussie group for resisting Islamisation.

http://www.qsociety.org.au/

"Modern England" wrote:

Clearly, I am on my own in regards to Jihad Watch and all its members with what I'm about to say; but I do not condemm Anders Breivik. I condemn his choice of target to a degree due to their age, but his actions were an act of brutally-pure, passionate love for his nation, his race and of Western civilisation.
.......................................

*What utter crap*. Breivik mass murdered his fellow citizens, he openly voiced his admiration for the tactics of Al-Qaeda, and he noted that he *was willing to work with Jihadists to achieve his goals*.

Does this sound like "passionate love...of Western civilisation" to anyone other than "Modern England"?

More:

Why should Muslims be able to support Hamas, the Taliban and Al-Qaeda, and we can't support OUR extreme Freedom Fighters?
.......................................

Despite his hedging later on, it is clear that this 'defender of Western Civ' himself admires Hamas, the Taliban and Al-Qaeda, and considers them "freedom fighters". *Repulsive*.

More:

Look into yourselves, deep-down. And you will see that his manifesto is correct. It is far from 'incoherent'.

He is my brother. And I love him like a fellow brother.
.......................................

Your "brother", huh? **Ugh**.

More:

Obviously, I would never carry out such an attack. I wouldn't know how to even if I wanted to; and I certainly do not want to be in prison for the rest of my life - or at ALL.

But the fact remains: if there were a million Breiviks, everything could be changed.
.......................................

Well, yes—it would mean that civilized nations of the West would become violent, chaotic hell-holes—not unlike those of Dar-al-Islam. Something to look forward to, as "Modern England" sees it.

More:

I, for one, respect him, love him and understand him. But, I could never kill 'innocent' people, and lose my freedom.
.......................................

Notice the sneer quotes. "Modern England" doesn't consider children 'innocent' people.

More crap, backpedaling this time after being called out by Robert Spencer:

I'm still shocked at the raw blasting I recieved. Especially from 'Jan', who I suspect is an angry, hormonal feminist or something...

Again, I am sorry. (still think Jan went waaaaay too far, though).
.......................................

Applauding mass murder: 'defender of the West'. Decrying mass murder: "hormonal feminist"...

What crap. Jan's response to your vicious crap was spot on.

And you've tried this sh*t here before. I'm not entirely sure what your agenda is, but I would be *very* surprised if you are a real Anti-Jihadist.

Thank you.

For once I can claim with absolute certainty that I'm not talking out my rear on this subject. I studied psychology and did very well (though not in statistics so that was it for my pscyhology career). This may have looked like a comment but was in fact from education and resarch of contemporary proffessional resources.

I can't say if he had Schizotypal Personality Disorder that turned into paranoid schizophrenia or just underwent a slow degredation of faculties.

The police and lawyers description of his movements and speech indicates he was partially schizophrenic in some way for years before going off the deep end. His life history given in the initial evaluation confirms that.

Also his unending rambling lectures and use of invented words that sound like proffessional jargon but aren't. Big hint there.

The court can say he is sane all they like but he still had to be put on very serious medication just to be able to attend the proceedings.

No doubt. Full on cray cray. Except that there are people who need him not to be for various reasons. Public opinion, politics, their own careers. And why should a public figure allow this maniacs atrocity to detroy their careers along with the lives of his victims. Dishonest but very understandable.

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