U.S. Embassy in Cairo condemns murderous Muslim rages "religious incitement

you are missing the point here. muslims are entirly responsebile for their actions and this Jones guy does not bare any responsibilities at all. the whole point of being here is free speech. I am no fan of burning the koran, Torah or the bible, but if someone wants to do it he/she has every right to do so. muslims do not have an understanding of free speech and to top it off Islam does not recognize democracy and free speech. so muslims are entirly to blame and I was one of them and I know how they think.
M

Miriam

Thanks for your thoughts.

Pastor Jones would surely have known that burning a koran in a blaze of publicity would certainly or very likely lead to rioting and killing in the Muslim world. If he did know that this would (very likely) be the reaction, I find it difficult to see how he bears no responsibility for that reaction.

So, do I hear you saying that we should surrender our right of free speech if that right "offends" people from other countries and cultures? You know, those cultures who attack our homeland and murder our diplomats, for instance? Are you saying that their "feelings" are more important than our rights? They're no doubt "offended" by lots of our rights and freedoms; how many more of those do you think we should abandon for the sake of muslims' tender "feelings?"

We have a dead ambassador here--murdered by muslims--and you think Terry Jones is responsible? Hey, if you want to buy-in to the tired islamic narrative that the victims of their savagery are the real guilty ones, have at it. No sale on that perverse logic here, sorry...

"Thus, whilst it would be crazy to argue that the Pastor was entirely responsible for the deaths the followed his koran burning, neither would I exempt him from any responsibility by arguing that Muslims had a choice as to how they responded. That just seems too psychologically and culturally naive."

But Muslims DO have a choice as to how they respond. There is an American religious cult that pickets the funerals of U.S. military personnel with calls that their deaths are just punishment for societal toleration of homosexuality. You can be sure that some attendees of these funerals would have liked to see harm come to these cultists, but no one has yet acted on such impulses. Allowing a double standard for Muslims continues and validates their actions. A double standard is evil.

"Pastor Jones would surely have known that burning a koran in a blaze of publicity would certainly or very likely lead to rioting and killing in the Muslim world. If he did know that this would (very likely) be the reaction, I find it difficult to see how he bears no responsibility for that reaction."

If he does bear any responsibility it should be between him and God. Your reasoning could also be applied to JihadWatch - and it has by many Muslim apologists and others who wish to see freedoms curtailed. Democracy cannot function if threats can shut down free speech. That is a practical truth that trumps any moralistic ideals.

Your motives may be innocent, but you echo arguments made by people who are not innocent.

so what? are you a liebral, a troll or are genuin? if you are genuin, you are then naive and ill informed to say the least. so if the Nazi protest here in NYC, does that give the orthodox jews in Brooklyn to come and murdere the Nazis? if KKK was assembling in Harlem does this give the blacks the right to go an kill the KKK. KKK and Nazi are vile, but they have every right to peacefull assembly and need to be protected. period. how the westboro baptist churc people? they go around to the funeral of slained solders and shout thank god for a dead solders! because they blame the gays. so the people at the funeral should go and kill them? my own son is a marine. so god forbid if they come to my son's funeral do I go and get an AK47 and shoot them? let's get real here. fuck the muslims and their prophet. if they want to make a movie about him they have every right to do so. but you know what is the point here? the movie is telling the truth and muslims can not take it.
M

These riots are not spontaneous, they are planed, and they are intended to destroy freedom of speech and advance the cause of Islam.

It is the surrender to this barbaric behavior that leads to more of it.

You are responsible not pastor Jones

You have blood on your hands.

I agree.

So, do I hear you saying that we should surrender our right of free speech if that right "offends" people from other countries and cultures?

Absolutely not.

Are you saying that their "feelings" are more important than our rights?

Absolutely not.

I don't think any of us can straightforwardly always choose the way we react. For example, in certain situations, my anger does not feel like a choice. However, let's, for simplicity, grant that Muslims are completely free to choose their reactions.

If Pastor Jones knew that Muslims would (very likely) choose to react to his koran burning by rioting and killing, then he is in part causally responsible for the rioting and killing. His partial causal responsibility is a straightforward fact. However, is he in part also morally responsible? It seems to me that it's difficult to argue he isn't.

None of this is to say that the rioting and killing by Muslims was anything other than utterly repugnant. None of this is to say that they didn't bear considerable responsibility for the rioting and killing. None of this is to say that Muslims had a right to riot and murder.

It's simply to suggest that if you know that a (very likely) consequence of your action will be highly negative actions by others and you choose to commit that act, you cannot exempt yourself from some moral responsibility for that consequence.

If KKK was assembling in Harlem does this give the blacks the right to go an kill the KKK.

Of course not. But nothing I posted earlier in any way suggested that Muslims do have a right to riot and kill. (Clearly they don't.) My post wasn't making an argument about rights.

"If he did know that this would (very likely) be the reaction, I find it difficult to see how he bears no responsibility for that reaction."

Pastor Jones only bears pragmatic responsibility, not ethical responsibility. The ethical responsibility for any hatred or violence perpetrated by Muslims is solely and appropriately the burden of the Muslims themselves, and all Western idiots who continue to refrain from condemning all Muslims for enabling Islam.

"If Pastor Jones knew that Muslims would (very likely) choose to react to his koran burning by rioting and killing, then he is in part causally responsible for the rioting and killing. His partial causal responsibility is a straightforward fact. However, is he in part also morally responsible? It seems to me that it's difficult to argue he isn't."

As I alluded to in my earlier reply to you, I have two difficulties with your argument.

First, I fail to see how any moral responsibility incurred by the burning of a Quran should translate into any duty by government to prevent the riotous outcomes of such burning via any legal curtailment of free speech.

Second, given the unassailable fact of Islamic jihad against the non-Islamic (and heterodox Islamic) world, I fail to see how any moral responsibility incurred by the burning of a Quran should translate into any duty by society - non-governmental agencies - to censure such free speech. Such censure once begun would then be applied to all topics Islamic, and this would constitute aiding and abetting the enemy.

You can cry "moral responsibility" all you like, but given these facts I must conclude that the assignment of "moral responsibility" to non-Muslims for Muslim atrocities is irrelevant, despite whatever small truth it may contain.

First, I fail to see how any moral responsibility incurred by the burning of a Quran should translate into any duty by government to prevent the riotous outcomes of such burning via any legal curtailment of free speech.

I agree.

Second, given the unassailable fact of Islamic jihad against the non-Islamic (and heterodox Islamic) world, I fail to see how any moral responsibility incurred by the burning of a Quran should translate into any duty by society - non-governmental agencies - to censure such free speech. Such censure once begun would then be applied to all topics Islamic, and this would constitute aiding and abetting the enemy.

Again, I agree.

And, yet, at the same time, I hold that Pastor Jones' choice to exercise his freedom of expression was a very poor one.

We should not allow ourselves to be intimidated by the enemy but, there again neither should we needlessly provoke them. Where the boundary lies between legitimate actions that nevertheless provoke and actions that needlessly provoke is perhaps not always easy to discern.

"And, yet, at the same time, I hold that Pastor Jones' choice to exercise his freedom of expression was a very poor one."

if you agree with me so much, then I must conclude that you are auditioning to become Pastor Jones' pastor. I see no other valid reason for you to be making your argument.

So, what you're really saying is that I'm responsible for my neighbor's conduct, right? And, if I say something that he doesn't like or agree with...then it's my fault if he gets violent--with me or anyone else? What if what I said was the truth--does that matter? And, what if he disagrees and gets violent about EVERYTHING I say? So, now I can't say ANYTHING, can I? Because he has a gun to my head. "Do what I say, don't piss me off, or I'll _______" fill in the blank. Now he's controlling me, isn't he? Isn't that how gangs take over neighborhoods?

What you're talking about here is surrender to violent bullies, nothing less. And if the violent bullies are extremely sensitive to any questioning or criticism of their beliefs and behavior? I have to tiptoe around them, mollify them, make excuses for them, cower in their presence, etc, right?

I say WRONG! That's no way to live! Our rights and freedoms, individually and societally, are not negotiable. Let me put this another way: We'll make any fucking movie we want to make, within OUR laws, no one else's, period. Anyone who doesn't like it...tough shit for them! Violent response? Their psychopathy, their choice, not ours. I may be my brother's keeper, but I am NOT the keeper of murderous savages...

we should needlessly rpovoke...
again you are doing the excuses for the jihadists. look we paid for the freedom we paid and we paid a lot. my own son served a year in Afghanistan for a lousy $1800 a month he put his life to protect our freedom and he is doing it now as we speak. so we should not make cartoons of muhamd so muslims will not riot, we should not say nuhamd was a pedophile so muslims will not riot, we should not tell the truth so muslims will not riot and so on... this is calledd stealth jihad. we silence ourselves so a binch f...ing savages will not be rioting this is all I can read in your post. before you know it in this age of internet we should not produce gay porn because it upsets muslim, before you know it, one can not open a liquir store accross from a mosque in NYC so muslims will not riot, before you know we can should not advertise in muslim neigborhood so they will not riot, befor you know we should not condem their duplicitiy so they will not riot. look dude, I was born and raise a muslim. I know so much about this evil idealogy that is not even funny. muslim mentality is as soon as you give in they want nmore and they precive you as week. islamic mentality is the same mentality as the mafia. THREATS. MURDERS. INTIMIDATION. KILLINGS. we need to confron them with all our might and hold them responsible for thier own actions and those of us whor practising our freedom to speak. this how facisim takes root. they silence you a little at a time until you shut the f...up and follow thier agends. it is that simple.
M

Assholes who don't have any concept of freedom should be provoked and then dealt with accordingly for not being civilized. Wonder if you'll get this. Probably not.

In the US there is something called a "hecklers veto" which says you cannot restrict someones free speech because of a reacting party's behavior. It's irrelevent whether Muslims are upset by cartoons, films or a woman without a hijab on her head. That's their problem, it has no bearing on what Terry Jones or anyone else in America does with their privately owned Korans.Or their Constitutionally protected free speech. The Koran that was burned was private property which can be disposed of in any way the owner see's fit.We also have private property rights under the US Constitution. If Muslims act like irrational animals over a burned book that is their responsibilty not Terry Jones.The fact that they would kill over films, cartoons, or korans only proves what Terry Jones said.