White House won’t denounce “Piss Christ” after repeatedly denouncing Muhammad movie

Double standards and dhimmi pandering exposed. Christians don’t kill people for being insulted, and Obama knows that. “WH Silent Over Demands to Denounce “˜Piss Christ” Artwork,” by Todd Starnes for Fox News, September 21:

Religious groups are blasting President Obama for not condemning am anti-Christian art display set to appear in New York City and one Republican lawmaker said he is “fed up with the administration’s double standard and religious hypocrisy.

“Piss Christ,” once branded as a “deplorable, despicable display of vulgarity,” will be displayed at the Edward Tyler Nahem Gallery in Manhattan on Thursday. The artwork features a “photograph of the crucifix submerged in the artist’s urine.”

The artwork debuted in 1989 and was funded through prize money provided by the National Endowment for the Arts. The art gallery hosting the retrospective salute to Andres Serrano is privately owned.

Religious groups and some lawmakers have already started sounding off — and making comparisons to the controversy over a recent anti-Muslim film. The low budget movie “Innocence of Muslims” sparked violent and deadly clashes across the globe.

It also brought strong rebukes, condemnations and apologies from President Obama, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and a host of administration officials.

The administration tried to have the film removed from YouTube — but Google rebuffed their request. The State Dept. spent $70,000 on a Pakistani television advertisement rebuking the film. And the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff personally telephoned a Christian minister in Florida to ask him to withdraw his support of the film.

Rep. Michael Grimm (R, C-NY) wants to know why President Obama hasn’t denounced the exhibit and said he’s fed up with what he called the administration’s “religious hypocrisy.”

“The Obama administration’s hypocrisy and utter lack of respect for the religious beliefs of Americans has reached an all-time high,” Grimm told Fox News. “I call on President Obama to stand up for America’s values and beliefs and denounce the “˜Piss Christ” that has offended Christians at home and abroad.”

So will the Obama Administration condemn the anti-Christian art display? Will they air a television ad denouncing the exhibit? Will the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff ask the gallery to cancel the exhibit?

The White House did not return calls seeking comment. Neither did the Pentagon.

The State Dept. referred to a previous statement Clinton made in reference to the anti-Islamic film.

“America’s commitment to religious tolerance goes back to the very beginning of our nation,” Clinton said. “And as you know, we are home to people of all religions, many of whom came to this country seeking the right to exercise their own religion, including, of course, millions of Muslims. And we have the greatest respect for people of faith.”

Grimm said the lack of response from the White House is unacceptable.

“Perhaps they”ve forgotten the controversy that surrounds this deplorable piece depicting a crucifix submerged in the artist’s urine,” Grimm said. “It outraged Christians in American and throughout the world.”

Grimm, who is Catholic, said he found the artwork to be vulgar and offensive, “just as many in the Islamic world found “˜Innocence of Muslims” to be highly offensive.”

“Like most Americans, I condemn both yet remain tolerant as the First Amendment demands,” he said. “Unfortunately, this administration has yet to echo these views in regards to the religiously offensive “˜art” here at home.”…

Relax: Senate overwhelmingly defeats bill to cut aid to Pakistan until release of doctor who helped U.S. find bin Laden
Obama to remove Iranian jihad group MEK from terror list
FacebookTwitterLinkedInDiggBlogger PostDeliciousEmailPinterestRedditStumbleUponPrint

Comments

  1. says

    Very good to point out the hypocrisy. The way to resolve it is not for a state official to start denouncing blasphemy on all sides. Obama and Clinton should just stick their noses out of religion.

  2. says

    White House won’t denounce “Piss Christ” after repeatedly denouncing Muhammad movie
    ……………………………….

    Well, of course not. Catholics and other Christians aren’t rioting in the streets burning down embassies and murdering diplomatic staff”nor are they ever likely to.

    More:

    The artwork debuted in 1989 and was funded through prize money provided by the National Endowment for the Arts.
    ……………………………….

    The odd thing is that this actually *was* funded by the government”unlike the “Innocence of Muslims” movie, which received no public monies (or much in the way of any funding, but that is very much a separate issue).

    Good for Congressman Grimm for pointing out this administration’s grim double standard.

  3. says

    For the record, contra Michael Grimm, I don’t condemn both. “Innocence of Muslims” has much accuracy attached to it, and God knows Islam is a menace to freedom, while “Piss Christ” is just plain stupid, and Christianity poses no threat to liberty. So, I condemn both—-minus one.

    Well, at least Grimm got it half-right. Meanwhile, and so typical here, the Anointed One won’t condemn stupid but he will condemn accurate and thus he gets nothing right (yet one more time). Again I assert my conviction that anyone voting for Obama in November is a fool, only the degree of foolishness is a variable.

  4. says

    Sitting by the phone,
    . . .
    sitting,
    . . .
    still sitting,
    . . .
    trying a little standing,
    . . .
    stretching the old muscles,
    . . .
    back to sitting,
    . . .
    a little yawn here and there,
    . . .
    still sitting,
    . . .
    [When the phone don’t ring, you’ll know it’s your president]

  5. says

    Jesus of Nazareth asked his followers to remain silent in the face of personal insult; the Buddha taught his students, as illustrated in the Dhammapada and other writings, to never respond in kind to insults; the Jewish amidah (standing) prayer, known as the Sh’moneh esrei (eighteen blessings) and recited thrice daily (morning, noon, and evening) ends with the following words:

    “My God, keep my tongue and my lips from speaking deceit, and to them that curse me let my soul be silent, and like dust to all. Open my heart in Your Torah, and after Thy commandments let me [my soul] pursue.” Leviticus teaches us: “Do not take vengeance, and never bear a grudge…”

    Psalms, Proverbs, and the rabbinic literature found in the Talmudim and midrashim have repeated examples of Jews being asked not to respond to insulting behavior and words.

    A Jew or a Christian might respond violently and with vengence to personal or collective insults, but either would be violating his faith’s commandments in doing so.
    A Muslim, in contrast, has Muhammed’s example as illustrated so frequently in the hadith and surah: Repeatedly violent responses, even to the point of murder, against those who cause offense or who have been alleged to have caused offense.

    Thus, we rarely if ever see a Jew, Buddhist, or Christian responding violently to insults against Christian or Buddhist imagery or expressions of anti-Semitism; but each day brings us more and more sorry illustrations of Muslim savagery against perceived insults.

    Forged in the crucible of oppression, Buddhism, Christianity, and Judaism teach its adherents to be forebearing in the heat of insult and persecution; Islam, founded by a narcissistic and tribal warlord in order to facilitate world conquest, does not.

  6. says

    The following report proves once again that muslims do not think alike

    and there are pro-American muslims and anti-American muslims:

    Hundreds of protesters stormed the compound of one of Libya’s strongest armed Islamic extremist groups Friday, evicting militiamen and setting fire to their building as the attack that killed the U.S. ambassador and three other Americans sparked a public backlash against armed groups that run rampant in the country and defy the country’s new, post-Moammar Gadhafi leadership:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/21/benghazi-anti-militia-protest_n_1903846.html

  7. says

    The reality is, of course, that politicians have no business commenting, in any way, on *either* of these things, since both are examples of freedom of expression, and freedom of speech.

    How telling, however, that the pusillanimous obama and clinton tremble with eagerness to placate the muslim savages, over a film, which however badly produced and acted it is, is nevertheless **true** !! There is nothing in the trailer I saw which isn’t mentioned in the hadiths, or the koran, yet obama and clinton bleat about ‘a reprehensible denigration of religion.’ Since when was telling the truth a ‘denigration’ ? Of course, silly me, in the 21st century West.

    The ”Piss Christ” on the other hand, says nothing *true* about Christianity, but merely underlines the peurility and banality of the so-called ‘artist.’ It’s the sort of thing a nasty little adolescent would produce, imagining he’s being daring and clever. And there is deafening silence from the sly and meretricious obama and clinton. Really, that alone should be enough for anyone with a modicum of intelligence, to paint these two disgraceful politicians with their true colours. *Yellow* comes to mind …

  8. says

    Poor Obama, he now has to choose between defending America or islam.

    He’s lowered the bar for muslims and presupposes they are so prone the violence and killings that he excuses away the global riots and murders. Obama expects msulims to be violent and the west needs Blasphemy laws so muslims stop murdering people.

    Pretty sad because there is a noose waiting for him in Egypt by the Muslim brotherhood that are now slaughtering blacks while the MSM ignores it all across Africa in islamic hell hole.

  9. says

    If you read about muscimol in the book “Magic Mushrooms in Religion and Alchemy” by ethno-botanist Clark Heinrich you may get a totally different view of the concept of Christ contained in urine.

  10. says

    And pro-Obama wonders why people call him dhimmi or secret Muslim

    He puts Sharia law over the constitution.

    As stupid as Mormonism sounds, Mitt Romney is the better candidate.

  11. says

    Let me rewrite more clearly a couple of sentences in my comment of 7:45 pm above.

    The U.S. avoided fascism not because the U.S. outlawed Hitlerian or other offensive speech. The U.S. avoided fascism because we were somewhat consistent in insisting on free speech for everyone.

  12. says

    The whole purpose of anti-blasphemy (and similar) laws is to provide legal cover (‘it applies to everyone!’) for targeting of ‘disapproved’ people, by selective enforcement.

  13. says

    Why should you be appalled at the White House $7, 000,000 spending to condemn insult-Mohammad film, and insensibly ignore the protest of “piss-Christ” art?

    History has witnessed to the unchecked persecution of Christians, since the period of the Roman Empire. Like Christ, Christians have been led to the slaughter as silently as a sheep. Had it not been for the Romans’ aversion to unfair fight, they would have been exterminated within the first century. When Jews persecuted them, they fled and dispersed eastward into the tributary nations. At the time of Muhammad, they king of Syria was a Christian. The cousin the Mohammad’s first wife Khadijah was a Christian. 30% of Saudi’s population was of Christians, but they were either slaughtered, or, survived by mass migration. In our time, Christians used to be the main economic engine in Gaza; today they either have fled to Europe or still remain as the remnants in hiding. Similarly, the number of Christians is greatly reduced in Egypt today. Such is the character of Christians as they follow the teaching of the Master, Prince of Peace. As such, our politicians have noticed that they can be taken for granted. They surmise that if they have been peaceful thus far, could they be drastically changed by the protest of “piss Christ” art?

    Paradoxically, Muslims are as violently cruel and rapacious wolves as their prophet. They obey at the calling to stand or sit by their imams. Our politicians, in both major parties, Republican and Democratic, know, although Muslims make up only 1% of our population, they will not deprive themselves of Muslims’ votes that they could muster in any election– especially when the day is drawing near. By the disbursement of $7,000,000 into Pakistan’s Coffer, they made the gesture of good will toward Muslims, and thereby to win their votes. Although you will protest, they presume that you will soon be as silent as a sheep before the sheerer.

  14. says

    So true, this proves that a double standard exists in the White House.

    Also, it’s clear that obama is NOT a Christian (even though he claims to be); and the information below relates to this topic, and some of you will find it very interesting …

    *SEVEN REASONS BARACK OBAMA IS NOT A CHRISTIAN*

    “There is a spiritual emergency in America.

    Barack Obama is in the process of trying to recreate the Christian faith in his own, very liberal and unorthodox image.

    Built on a foundation of radical Black Liberation Theology, theological liberalism and post-modernism, Obama is undermining historic, biblical Christianity while claiming his is a Christian. In the process, he is defaming the Christian faith.

    By declaring he is a Christian, yet denying Christianity’s most essential truths and traditional morality, Obama is associating Christ with some of the most wicked practices imaginable, all of which are condemned in the Bible.

    By any historic or biblical standard, Barack Obama is not a Christian.

    With his incredible celebrity status, Obama’s ideas about spiritual matters have become very significant, and they are very dangerous.

    Now, more than ever, Christianity is under attack from without and within. We need your help to stand for Christ.

    Over the next few weeks the Christian Anti-Defamation Commission will be releasing 7 short videos entitled, “7 reasons why Barack Obama is not a Christian.”

    If you want to receive all these timely videos, sign up for e-mail alerts on our home page.

    It is critical that we spread the truth about Obama’s fake Christianity so that Christians can defend the truth.

    Our concern is only spiritual and we pray for Barack Obama to repent and turn to Christ and His Word.”

    http://www.christianadc.org/resources/seven-reasons-campaign

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    The above link provides the 7 Reasons …they’re a must read!

  15. says

    This is all due to the passive attitude of the American Christians.Had one single Christian with some balls stood up when Obama comes to plead for his election to the second term-and boldy ask him what he has done for the Christian persecution in the Muslim world,and why he has not prevented the “piss Christ” exhibition-surely he would have answered at least for his vote’s sake.When Muslims are prepared to sacrifice their own lives as suicide bombers for their religion- can’t Amercian Christians at least stand up and boldy and demand why Obama is treating Christians like enemies. Will Obama kill them?I remember one Republican in the Congress shouted ‘lier’ at the very face of Obama.That made Obama to answer him. This is the only way to make Obama work for you.Amercian Christians- any takers?

  16. says

    U.S. Department of State can not take order from Zionist inspire hate group like Jihadwatch, Pamela Geller, Danielpipe. org, Geers Wilders type of organization to conduct American foreign policy.

    I think it is not a bad idea to have some international agreement through the UN and other international organisations to ban hate speech aimed at fomenting hatred and sowing seeds of discord through falsehood that these hate group is spreading on behalf of the Zionist entity in occupied Palestine commonly known as Israel. Most progressive people knows it the the extreme right wing Zionist and their co-horts the American Amen corner is behind almost all these hate group.

    We must not forget there are over 140 countries in the world that want to see an independent and viable Palestinian nation soon. Most certainly not a Bantustan proposed by the extreme right wingers like Mitt Romney who seem to follow late Meir Kahane’s thinking.

  17. says

    Peter,

    The Pakistani government saw fit to give the whole country a day off to protest against the film.

    This is, surely, a not-so-tacit acknowledgement that the majority of its citizens was offended, not just a tiny minority as you suggest. Can you suggest a protest about anything from a tiny minority resulting in a national day of protest being declared by the government of any country?

    No, nor can I, the population of Pakistan was estimated at 187 million people in 2011, a majority of 187 million, even a small majority, is not a tiny minority of anything.

    Eels.

  18. says

    All religions create religious supremacist bigots…and all of them have thin skins…
    But not all religious bigots are equal…Some are out right dangerous…There was a time when Christian bigots were very dangerous, but the age of enlightenment over whelmed them making Christianity caused violence rare…while Islam has had no age of enlightenment, is not going to have one, and it’s devotee’s commit acts of violence every day…
    And before this alter, Hillary and Rasool bow…
    Treason and lame excuses for treason…Barring dirty tricks, we can fix that in Nov…

  19. says

    Serves them right!!

    Obama’s inalienable rights minus what offends Islam vision – is crashing head-on into Constitutional reality!

    [He’s possibly confusing America’s with Kenya’s two tiered Constitution…]

    The Obama admin was never dealing with the Muslim world honestly.

    All that outpouring of hate – for everyone and everything else – from out of those regions – was for the most part ignored.

    Including the highest Islamic authority’s call to destroy all the region’s churches!

    Proving that this thinking on Islam arrives at only one outcome – an exponential increase in the number of demands.

    As it has already been tried in Europe.

    This is Obama thinking he knew better!

    ::

    It is worst than the Piss on Christ which was purely for art’s sake – the Innocence of Muslims video/trailer – was created no doubt in protest – against the human rights abuses the Copts suffer – as 2nd class or non-Muslim citizens of Egypt.

    The filmmaker and others likely thought it was offensive too – to overlook their plight – and watch others ingratiate an undeserving Islam [and even Shari’a where non-Muslims cannot enjoy equality with Muslims] – with platitudes about respect and grandiose claims about its greatness.

    He did not pick up a weapon – which he doesn’t have the right to do – he picked up a camera and shot a movie – which he does have the right to do – in protest.

    Let us be clear!

    And then we can choose whether to watch his film or not!!

  20. says

    The NEA had no business using tax dollars for “piss christ”, but I could care less about the artwork itself. It takes up next to no space in a room or in my head.

    On the contrary, its existence is now useful in showing what hypocritical cowards most artists are and how tolerant, rational, and non-violent Christians really are, now that we know what real intolerance, hate and violence looks like, thanks to Muslims, who put on world class displays of evil every day.

    The Muhammad movie was not art, it was political speech, highlighting those aspects of Muhammad which are repulsive to a balanced human being, lethal to non-Muslims, and make the world a dangerous place.

  21. says

    Slow minded voters can have Obama show them the light. The quicker minds will choose Romney; he will enable them to use their talents to make a buck. Unfortunately slow minded voters are in the majority, but getting the less than smart to jump ship and vote for Romney is possible. He can offer them a free PHD in the art of staying poor.

  22. says

    Our piss poor president doesn’t want to piss off his progressive secular base who spend much of their waking hours thinking of new ways to urinate on Christianity and drive it from the public square back into the catacombs.

  23. says

    I am sick of all these protests and shouts of blasphemy. The Idea of a crucifix in Urine being art is beyond me. Please, please, does ANYONE have VERIFIABLE evidence for the actual existence of and GOD, ANGEL, JINN and fairies living at the end of their garden.

    Perhaps someone has a brother-in-law or cousin or greatgrandfather who is an elf, gremlin or yeti. If so VERIFIABLE evidence please.

  24. says

    The idea of Christ being in urine can be explained using the science of entheogens. Muscimol is an entheogen (it induces “God experiences” in the brain). When muscimol from Amanita mushrooms is ingested it passes through the liver unchanged while all the toxins from the mushroom are metabolised down into waste products. The muscimol is concentrated in the urine where it becomes “safer” or more pure for someone to ingest than ingesting the original Amanita mushroom and the associated toxins. Refer to any book on mushroom entheogens e.g. “Magic Mushrooms in Religion and Alchemy” by ethno botanist Heinrich.

    See also McKenna, Wasson et al.

  25. says

    This is typical. But let’s not forget that God said, “vengeance is mine”. This sick muslim religion and government will come face to face with the True God, and they will have no excuse for their actions. Jesus will say “away from me, I never knew you”. One last quote, “they will call what is evil good, and what is good evil”. So evident of our world.

  26. says

    The Background Obama Can’t Cover Up !

    Islam, part of the Living River of History, can affect even the 2012 US election!
    The “headwaters” of this River was Adam, according to Judaism, Christianity, Islam etc .
    In the OT (Deut. 28), “tributaries” wanting to join the River will be blessed while “distributaries” who want to flow away from it will be cursed. Those wishing to totally separate from the fresh Living River will end up as polluted, dying “oxbow lakes.”
    In the OT we see Israelites repeatedly flowing away from God, then repenting and returning to Him; we also see heathen “oxbow lakes” creating their own “gods” and being allowed by God to plunder and kill the erring Israelites.
    Then, at the right time, the Living River took on new life with the arrival of the Promised One who offers “living water.”
    In the 7th century Islam, drawing from both OT and NT, chose to be a distributary away from this River. Many scholars have viewed it as the final Antichrist: note “scourge” (Isa. 28), “Assyrian” (Mic. 5), “Euphrates” (Rev. 9) etc.
    God will allow this “scourge” to temporarily persecute and even kill apostate Jews (JINOs) and Christians (CINOs). Jews, especially in “entertainment,” seem more expert in apostasy than Christians since Jews have been at it 2000 years longer than Christians have (Google “jewishfaces.com/porn.html”) – but Christians apparently want to catch up to the Jews!
    It’s apparent that others will join Islam in its end-time inquisition; its great oil wealth can captivate many leaders and already we are seeing apostate American leaders being bribed into turning against true American patriots.
    Those who ignore (or try to dilute or destroy) the God-ordained Living River of History will be swept down it to an ocean made by their own never-ending tears of agony and despair.
    The good news is that American JINOs & CINOs can overcome the “scourge” discussed above. The secret is found by checking out “II Chronicles 7:14″ & “John 3:16″ on the web.
    And there’s still time – and freedom – before the 2012 “End of America” election to Google or MSN “Obama Promotes Public Sex,” “Obama a Black-Slavery Avenger?,” “Dangerous Radicals of the Religious Right,” “Pretrib Rapture Politics,” “Mikey Weinstein, Jesus-Basher,” “Christ’s return is NOT imminent,” “Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty,” and “Pretrib Rapture Secrets.”
    In light of Matthew 7:2, if we tolerate Christian leaders who lie to us and steal from us, we shouldn’t be surprised if God allows us to have political leaders who lie to us and steal from us!

    A Kansas Patriot (who won FIRST PLACE over 2200 entrants in a nationwide Americanism essay contest)

    [Hi JW,the above informative item was observed on the net.]

  27. says

    Graven, the worst thing any of us did in response to government-funded _Piss Christ_ was vote for candidates who might kill funding the National Foundation for the Arts. While, as someone of the Reformed tradition, I neither wear nor display a crucifix or icon (plead the 2d Commandment), I do take a strong offense at people who want to suggest that my savior should be dunked in urine.

    This whole thing reveals a very troubling thing about the Democratic Party: they won’t respect you unless you do something utterly shameful and wrong like burning down your neighborhood or assassinating someone. They bow and scrape to people who murder ambassadors, but 屙脲 [bad word given in its Chinese equivalent] on people who have a religious obligation to treat them as human beings. Thus, they are like someone sitting on a branch who’s busy sawing it off–right between his own hip and the tree trunk. St. Paul tells me “What, shall we sin that grace may abound? May it never be!” Hence, we Christians aren’t allowed to start acting like Muslims.

    I’m pessimistic about this election, even if I will vote to get Obama out (for all the good it’s going to do in this deep indigo state where I live). Romney does nothing but alienate people; the major media is utterly subservient to the O;and too many people are afraid of being labeled “racist” by the selfsame people who’d tell my wife and kids to go back to China. Too many political pressure groups are pleased with the O administration’s willingness to throw the First Amendment under the bus to please them.

  28. says

    If you *must* post here, you pathetic little twat, at least post on the subject of the *article*, which is about the cowardice and double standards of obama and clinton, in apologising to islamic scum for a *true* film about paedomohammed, but keeping their treacherous, cowardly mouths shut about the abominable ”Piss Christ.”

    You *purport* to be a Christian (though I don’t believe for one second you are), so what have you got to say about obama and clinton’s ‘priotities’ here ?

  29. says

    Peter, you make a mistake that one sees made repeatedly. You point out that there are differences among Muslims, an observation too unspecific to have any usefulness. What we need to know are concrete percentages. What percentage of Muslim populations sympathize with the rioters? What percentage is against the rioters? I think the research data show that Muslims fully against Sharia law are a minority in the Islamic world, amounting to perhaps 20% or 30% at best. Sharia supporters (and their jihadist vanguard) are predominant. Here are some examples of numbers:

    A December 2010 survey conducted by the Pew Research Center found relatively widespread popular support for death penalty as a punishment for apostasy from Islam: in Egypt (84% of respondents in favor of death penalty), Jordan (86% in favor), Indonesia (30% in favor), Pakistan (76% favor) and Nigeria (51% in favor).

  30. says

    You wrote: ‘…and there are pro-American muslims and anti-American muslims:’

    But there’s only one anti-American Islam! That’s the problem!

  31. says

    Jan, you stated “examples of freedom of expression, and freedom of speech”

    Comment:

    Hitler was free to say anything about the Jews and it resulted in the German people looking the other way while the innocent Jews were transported by train to concentration camps.

    So freedom of speech has to be monitored by the FCC for foul language and also accuracy

    and the FCC should publicly broadcast its findings so that the tiny minority of muslims who got offended can see that we Americans can be fair and balanced

  32. says

    “How telling, however, that the pusillanimous obama and clinton tremble with eagerness to placate the muslim savages, over a film, which however badly produced and acted it is, is nevertheless **true** !! There is nothing in the trailer I saw which isn’t mentioned in the hadiths, or the koran, yet obama and clinton bleat about ‘a reprehensible denigration of religion.’ Since when was telling the truth a ‘denigration’ ? Of course, silly me, in the 21st century West.

    The ”Piss Christ” on the other hand, says nothing *true* about Christianity, but merely underlines the peurility and banality of the so-called ‘artist.’ It’s the sort of thing a nasty little adolescent would produce, imagining he’s being daring and clever. And there is deafening silence from the sly and meretricious obama and clinton. Really, that alone should be enough for anyone with a modicum of intelligence, to paint these two disgraceful politicians with their true colours. *Yellow* comes to mind …”

    Brava, Jan! …your comment is so spot on!

  33. says

    …over a film, which however badly produced and acted it is, is nevertheless **true** !! There is nothing in the trailer I saw which isn’t mentioned in the hadiths, or the koran…

    I don’t see the relevance of this for the issue of freedom of expression. It’s only relevant if the person is alive (hence the possibility of slander suits), not 1,400 years dead (or even possibly a mythical figure).

    We certainly don’t want to burden freedom of artistic expression on “accuracy”. I’ve written a satirical novel about George Washington in which I make up some bizarre stuff about him. Heaven forbid there should come a day where a court of law would determine whether I could publish that, or get punished if I got any historical details wrong.

    That said, I didn’t see much of the Mohammed film, but there was one scene where his first wife Khadija orders him to sit on the floor of her tent, and when he crosses his legs he has an unintentional Basic Instinct moment, and Khadija orders him to cover his crotch. Is there some hadith where this is specifically mentioned?

  34. says

    Peter, the problem was not that Hitler was free to say what he wanted. The problem was that Hitler outlawed free speech. So you have things exactly wrong.

    The United States didn’t escape fascism because the U.S. outlawed Hitlerian speech. We escaped fascism because we insisted on free speech, including offensive speech, such as that issuing from fascists.

    The best remedy for bad speech is more speech, not censorship.

  35. says

    Peter, you referred to what you called,

    …the tiny minority of muslims who got offended

    It’s not a tiny minority. Polls of Muslims show that quite large percentages get offended. But there is nothing so terrible about getting offended. What is terrible is what many Muslims think should be done to those who offend against Islam or Muhammad. The percentages are not small who think capital punishment is the right answer to those who give offense to Islam.

    Links to numerous news stories documenting self-censorship about Islam among major public institutions and public figures admitting to intimidation by Muslim death threats and violence

    —————————-

    Quoting Islam

  36. says

    “Peter” wrote:

    Jan, you stated “examples of freedom of expression, and freedom of speech”

    Comment:

    Hitler was free to say anything about the Jews and it resulted in the German people looking the other way while the innocent Jews were transported by train to concentration camps.
    …………………………………

    What *absolute crap*. As Traeh so ably notes, Nazi Germany didn’t suffer from a surfeit of freedom of speech, but from its almost complete suppression.

    More:

    So freedom of speech has to be monitored by the FCC for foul language and also accuracy

    and the FCC should publicly broadcast its findings so that the tiny minority of muslims who got offended can see that we Americans can be fair and balanced
    …………………………………

    If this was just a a question of accuracy, the “Innocence of Muslims” wouldn’t be an issue. Most of the scenes are taken straight from the canonical texts of Islam.

    The only issue”besides the depiction of the “Prophet””is that these actions of Muhammed are shown in a critical light.

    What you really want is for America to impose blasphemy laws.

    Whenever a Muslim starts talking about “we Americans”, you know he is about to advocate the stripping of our freedoms in favor of Shari’ah law. Ugh.

  37. says

    Brett_McS,
    As you perhaps know, blasphemy laws are also used in the Muslim world as a way to take the property of non-Muslims. A Muslim predator who covets a non-Muslim’s property may try to get it by accusing the non-Muslim of blasphemy. The non-Muslim then has little or no meaningful recourse in the Muslim legal system, and the social atmosphere in Muslim countries makes it so that the non-Muslim accused of blasphemy will have to leave the neighborhood very quickly to save his life from rampaging Muslim mobs. Muslims then sometimes take over the non-Muslim’s abandoned lands, house, and property.

  38. says

    You wrote, bizarrely; ‘I think it is not a bad idea….to ban hate speech aimed at fomenting hatred and sowing seeds of discord through falsehood …..’

    Why is it that when imams and other Muslims quote Al Qur’an saying that the Jews are descended from apes and pigs, but when a reputable website like JW publishes exactly the same quote it’s ‘hate speech’.

    Here it is, straight from Al Qur’an.

    2:65 And you know well the story of those among you who broke Sabbath. We said to them: “Be apes”despised and hated by all.”

    And in Ibn Ishaq, an early and largely reliable biographer of Muhammad, takes the metamorphosis literally, and he has Muhammad calling the Medinan Jewish clan, Qurayzah, “brothers of monkeys.”

    So, am I guilty of hate speech? Or is it Al Qur’an and core Muslim commentators? And who is ‘fomenting hatred and sowing seeds of discord’?

    Islam should be banned along with the hate speech from Al Qur’an. You’re a clown!

  39. says

    Danny, please, return to your bridge, the one in the Muslim Republic of Iran that’s missing its troll.

    Your utterly misguided attack on our sacred First Amendment rights on behalf of some misguided “new world order” is as pathetic and disgusting as your transparent attempts to air your anti-Semitism, disguised as “anti-Zionism” mixed with collosal ignorance of history and current events ( i.e. blaming Jews and Israel for the actions of a lone Egyptian Christian), in a hypocritical bid for sympathy for the Arabs.

  40. says

    “danny” wrote:

    I think it is not a bad idea to have some international agreement through the UN and other international organisations to ban hate speech aimed at fomenting hatred and sowing seeds of discord through falsehood that these hate group is spreading on behalf of the Zionist entity in occupied Palestine commonly known as Israel.
    ………………………………

    Well, of course you don’t think it’s a bad idea. The idea you are advocating is Shari’ah. Given your entire posting history, your recommendation that America have its freedom of speech crushed by outfits like the OIC are exactly what we would expect.

    And”I as *again*”just what exactly in this film is a “falsehood”? Generally pretty accurate, as far as I have seen.

  41. says

    Muslims against shariah and islamic bullshits (Jihad) are, i think about 9 or 10%
    Usually they are secular muslims that never read quran and pratice islam only in fasting during ramadan, avoid t eat pork and praying in the islamic way. But all remaining things are an imitation of the local religion (usually christianity). Those muslims pratice secular cristianity for the 98%.

  42. says

    Traeh, you stated ” A December 2010 survey conducted by the Pew Research Center found relatively widespread popular support for death penalty as a punishment for apostasy from Islam: in Egypt (84% of respondents in favor of death penalty), Jordan (86% in favor), Indonesia (30% in favor), Pakistan (76% favor) and Nigeria (51% in favor).”

    Comment:

    What about all the other 40 over muslim countries, you did not mention ?

    Does it mean not all muslims say the death penalty is for apostasy ?

    and does that mean enlightment has arrived at least among a large percentage of muslims ?

  43. says

    If a Mahoundian is not pious, he is a Mahoundian in name only, and will be recognized as such by Allah, who knows everything…The idea is to get into Paradise after you die, if a Mahoundian does not have that, he is not a Mahoundian…Allah did not promise Paradise to everyone…According to Tabari, Mahound said that there was only room for 10,000 in Paradise, the majority men, as Mahound also said the Hell was inhabited mostly by women…
    The point is that only pious Mahoundians will qualify, and not all of them…All they can do is follow Allah’s words and laws piously, and hope they get a ‘ticket to Paradise’…Those words and laws can be found in Quran, the examples of Mahound and sharia…

  44. says

    But most Muslims curse him. It is reported he is even less popular among Muslims than George Bush was. His effigy is burned in many Islamic places.

  45. says

    We certainly don’t want to burden freedom of artistic expression on “accuracy”.

    You are absolutely right.
    I actually find the ‘basic instinct moment’ quite funny. In the hadiths, when he sees the spirit, he runs to Khadija and says: “Cover me! Cover me!” because he is scared.
    In the film she says:”You are not wearing undergarments. Cover yourself”
    The filmmaker has either misunderstood or he is using his freedom of artistic expression and a sense of humour. The result is funny either way.

  46. says

    ”I don’t see the relevance of this for the issue of freedom of expression.” and:

    ”We certainly don’t want to burden freedom of artistic expression on “accuracy”.

    I totally agree, LemonLime.

    I was merely trying to underline the hypocrisy of clinton and obama in apologising for something that is, in fact, true, but saying nothing about a piece of ‘art’ that has nothing to say about the truthfulness or otherwise of Christianity, and was produced simply to offend.

    Sorry if I didn’t make that clear.

  47. says

    ”That said, I didn’t see much of the Mohammed film, but there was one scene where his first wife Khadija orders him to sit on the floor of her tent, and when he crosses his legs he has an unintentional Basic Instinct moment, and Khadija orders him to cover his crotch. Is there some hadith where this is specifically mentioned?”

    If you go onto Salah’s site, there’s a piece on this.

  48. says

    Not living at the end of my garden.

    Our best science is carefully collecting, collating, describing, and otherwise working on everything found in the vast, long valley of life in which we all live. However, the mountain walls bounding that valley (sort of like those bounding Johnstown, PA) are only the greasy ridges left by two lines in God’s fingerprint.

  49. says

    duh_swami, you stated “while Islam has had no age of enlightenment”

    Comment:

    Islam is a very young religion ( over 600 years younger than Christianity and is in some parts of the world the equivalent to 15th century Christianity )

    and yet islam has progressed in certain areas much faster than christianity during the same time line.

    When muslim nations like Malaysia had their independence, they gave everybody the right to vote compared to

    christian America that only allowed white landowners to vote

    While democratic US had slavery, lynching of blacks and forcing native Americans to give up their lands,

    democratic muslim Malaysia did not have slavery or the lynching of minorities or the taking away of lands belonging to minorities

  50. says

    Buraq, you stated : ” But there’s only one anti-American Islam! That’s the problem!”

    Comment:

    Are you saying that American muslims are anti-American when they practice their religion ?

  51. says

    Kepha wrote:

    Graven, the worst thing any of us did in response to government-funded _Piss Christ_ was vote for candidates who might kill funding the National Foundation for the Arts.
    ……………………………….

    By the way, even though I am an artist myself, Kepha, I don’t believe the public should have their tax dollars used to fund art”especially work they frequently disagreee with.

    On the other hand, when I consider some of the truly appalling things our tax dollars are used for’such as Jizya in the form of “foreign aid” to Pakistan and the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt”even ugly things like the “Piss Christ” and Ofili’s “Holy Virgin Mary” painted in dung look fairly benign by comparison.

    More:

    This whole thing reveals a very troubling thing about the Democratic Party: they won’t respect you unless you do something utterly shameful and wrong like burning down your neighborhood or assassinating someone. They bow and scrape to people who murder ambassadors, but 屙脲 [bad word given in its Chinese equivalent] on people who have a religious obligation to treat them as human beings.
    ……………………………….

    That’s what I hate, too, Kepha”the “respect” for brutality and barbarism shown by so many of our “leaders”. It makes me ill”and it makes me angry.

    More:

    I’m pessimistic about this election, even if I will vote to get Obama out (for all the good it’s going to do in this deep indigo state where I live). Romney does nothing but alienate people; the major media is utterly subservient to the O;and too many people are afraid of being labeled “racist” by the selfsame people who’d tell my wife and kids to go back to China. Too many political pressure groups are pleased with the O administration’s willingness to throw the First Amendment under the bus to please them.
    ……………………………….

    I agree”though Romney is *far* from perfect. He seems to understand Israel’s threatened position’to some extent”but is still pretty clueless when it comes to Jihad in general. Still, from everything he has said, I imagine he would be considerably better than the current appeasing occupant of the White House.

    Still, the polls are close. I am not counting on an Obama loss in November”although I don’t know how any sane person can want to reelect him.

    I fear he will be *even worse* when he no longer has to worry about being reelected.

    I hate to be such a downer. We have to defend our freedom of speech”really, the protection of all our other rights grow out of the First Amendment.

  52. says

    Traeh, you stated : ” the problem was not that Hitler was free to say what he wanted. The problem was that Hitler outlawed free speech. So you have things exactly wrong.”

    Comment:

    That is what I was saying, Hitler was free to speak lies, and nobody corrected Hitler

    so we need the FCC to give a complete picture of all speech, instead of keeping quiet about the anti-islam movie

  53. says

    You asked: ‘Are you saying that American muslims are anti-American when they practice their religion?’

    When it’s violent jihad, yes. When it’s taking away freedom of speech and freedom of conscience, yes. When it’s regarding women as commodities, yes. And there’s much more that is un- American when Muslims practice their so-called religion.

    Because being an American is to be against all of these things!

    You’re a clown!

  54. says

    Traeh, you stated : The percentages are not small who think capital punishment is the right answer to those who give offense to Islam.”

    Comment:

    What are the percentages

    or are they much less than 100%

    and if so, is enlightement coming to muslims because a large percentage do not think people should be put to death for insulting islam ?

  55. says

    Eels, you stated : ” a national day of protest being declared by the government of any country?”

    Comment:

    How many protesters showed up in Pakistan ?

  56. says

    Graven, you stated : ” If this was just a a question of accuracy, the “Innocence of Muslims” wouldn’t be an issue. Most of the scenes are taken straight from the canonical texts of Islam.”

    Comment:

    You said most was taken straight from the texts of islam.

    I have a couple of questions

    (1) when you said most, does that mean some did not come straight from the texts of islam ?

    (2) when you say texts of islam, what texts are you referring to specifically ?

  57. says

    Buraq, you stated : ” You asked: ‘Are you saying that American muslims are anti-American when they practice their religion?’

    When it’s violent jihad, yes.”

    Comment:

    what is the difference between violent jihad and the jihad war against the Soviets in Afghanistan, supported by the US government ?

  58. says

    Do you *really * think that is what the ‘artist’ meant to convey ?

    How many people would be privy to this somewhat esoteric information about muscimol ? I would suggest very few.

    On the other hand, urine, or ”piss” to be vulgar, is universally known to be a *waste* product, and is frequently used as a term of insult : ”piss poor”, ”piss head”, ”I’m pissed off”, and many, many more.

    So I think the ‘artist’ *meant* to insult Christianity.

    But there aren’t any Christians rioting, burning, and murdering over it. I’ll bet anything the soi-disant ‘artist wouldn’t have the guts to submerge a *koran* in a jar of ”piss”.

  59. says

    Sorry, I would not know how to do a transliteration of the arabic script. I just put the script into google translate and it came out as Mohammad piss be upon him in English. HA!!