Free speech under siege in U.S. District Court in the nation's capital

It was quite an eventful day in Washington today. Pamela Geller has a full report:

Today was a dark day in American history, but you'd never know because the media is complicit in this sharia enforcement. I had a front-row seat to witness the rape of the First Amendment in the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia, Judge Rosemary Collyer, presiding. Robert Spencer and I went down to Washington as defenders of America's most fundamental and unalienable right. And in return, we had the sad misfortune of watching a U.S. District Court Judge discard, denigrate, downplay and dismiss our most basic law of the land: the freedom of speech.

The Judge went out of her way to validate and substantiate the ridiculous premise of the Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority (WMATA), that the AFDI pro-freedom ad would endanger passengers on the D.C. subways and thus must not be posted, or at least delayed until some (fanciful) time when the jihad threat would subside. It was painful to watch Judge Collyer almost physically wrestling with the First Amendment, trying to tackle it and pin it to the floor. But the First Amendment was much too wily for the wrongheaded, utterly subjective, and clueless judge.

Philip Staub, the lawyer for WMATA, invoked the international Muslim riots that have been blamed (falsely) on the Muhammad video, and said the WMATA had received an email threatening them if they posted our ad. He was, in other words, counseling submission to violent Muslim intimidation, and the curtailing of the freedom of speech to appease savages. He made the laughable argument that if the ad ran after November 1, the threat would have subsided by then, and would be well -- as if the jihad terror threat would completely die down by then. Judge Collyer then asked him if the ads could be posted sooner if they were moved away from the train platforms, so that passengers would be less likely to get caught up in fights or terrorist attacks over them. He seemed open to that idea.

The whole issue about moving the ads represented the judge’s attempt to find a way to accommodate the WMATA’s fearmongering argument that the ad would endanger passengers. And is that now the American response to threats of violence from a fascist ideology – to accede and submit to that very same fascist ideology? The judge was an embarrassment to every proud American who understands what is at stake. I can’t speak for our lawyer, Robert Muise, but his frustration was palpable.

Staub also argued that the ad constituted fighting words, but here even Judge Collyer couldn’t go along with what he was saying, although she struggled mightily to do so. She gently pointed out to Staub, whom she treated with kid gloves and like a special-needs child the whole afternoon, leading him by the hand to the disbelief of the open court (in sharp contradistinction to her frequent interruptions and contradictions of Robert Muise – stop making sense!), that for the ad to constitute fighting words, there had to be an imminent threat of violence. But the ads have run without incident in San Francisco and New York – they were vandalized in New York in an attempt to shut down free speech, but there was no violence aside from Muslim Brotherhood poster girl Mona Eltahawy’s pink spray can) – and so it was impossible for Staub or Collyer to sustain the idea that they constituted an imminent threat to the safety of the passengers. But Collyer certainly tried, coaching and coaxing Staub, and at one point saying to him, “The imminence issue is hard for me to get to. Just trying to tell you where I am going.” She never gave Muise any such hints.

Collyer further coached Staub by saying that she assumed – assumed! – that he was arguing (since he was so inept at actually doing so, the point wasn’t clear) that the government’s “compelling interest” in refusing or delaying these ads was concern for the safety of the passengers. She then said, with obvious reluctance, that against that concern there had to be balanced “the very broadly read First Amendment,” and asked him how he thought this could be done.

Staub answered that the safety of the passengers could be balanced against the First Amendment by delaying the ads. He said that he thought things would cool down in Africa, Asia and the Middle East by November 1, and that the ads could run then. Remember, guys, we’re talking about four little ads here, and the WMATA is talking about unrest on two continents. That’s how paralyzed with fear of savages the U.S. Government has become.

Then our lawyer, Robert Muise, called for an immediate injunction overruling WMATA’s delay and ordering that the ads run immediately. He cited ample legal precedent to show that it was an established point of law that the delay of a citizen’s freedom of speech constituted irreparable harm.

But then Judge Collyer broke in with her most disquieting, most un-American argument of all. She said that while Muise was arguing that the ad was core political speech, and thus the most protected category of speech of all, Collyer said, “I see hate speech. When you defend this ad as core political speech, I have a problem with that." Muise pointed out that U.S. District Court Judge Paul Engelmayer in New York had ruled that the very same ad was core political speech, Collyer said peremptorily that she disagreed with Judge Engelmayer, and rudely cut Muise off when he tried to explain that the ad was not hate speech and that the main part of it -- "In any war between the civilized man and the savage, support the civilized man" -- was adapted from the work of Ayn Rand. Collyer snapped defensively that she knew who Ayn Rand was and still thought the ad was hate speech, constituting a hateful message.

The ad is not hate speech, it's love speech. It's love of life speech. The ad speaks to the defense of freedom and individual rights for all. There's nothing hateful about it. 9/11 was hate. 3/11 in Madrid was hate. 7/7 in London was hate. The Fort Hood jihadi was hate. The Christmas balls bomber was hate. The Fort Dix Six was hate. Pushing back against such hate is not hate. This poor woman hasn't a clue as to the jihadic doctrine that relentlessly seeks to violently impose Islamic law and pursues jihad against non-Muslims. Judge Collyer is on her own personal jihad to defend and sanction the very dull knife that will be employed to cut her own head off.

In the midst of this nonsense, Muise kept acting like the one kid in the sixth grade classroom who was trying to keep his classmates from running wild in front of the hapless substitute teacher: he kept trying to remind Collyer (and Staub) of basic points of American law. He reminded Collyer that there is no law against "hate speech" in America, so that even if she did think the ad was "hate," that should have no bearing on her ruling. Speech is only considered inciteful, he said, if the speech itself is calling for the lawless, violent action. WMATA's argument about the threat this video posed to the safety of the passengers, he pointed out, rested entirely on riots that took place not in the U.S. but in Muslim countries, and not because of this ad, but (supposedly) because of the Muhammad video. The video and the ad, he said, did not have remotely the same content. There was one email that the WMATA received that apparently contained threats related to this ad, he said, but he explained that we cannot allow those who threaten violence to restrict our First Amendment rights, and cannot have the government acquiesce in the restriction of those rights in response to threats.

Collyer seemed to grasp none of this, and went on to say contemptuously to Muise, "No threat? Where have you been?" But in trying to show her awareness of the jihad threat she only demonstrated how little she knows about it, naming the recent riots and the London attack of 2005 ("admittedly, that was a few years ago") as if that was all there was. She said that it was not reasonable to think that in light of the worldwide riots over the Muhammad video that WMATA was not right to be concerned about the safety of its passengers if this ad went up.

In response to that, Muise pointed out that DHS had issued guidelines for precautions public agencies can and should be taking, and that to stand down from saying things that might offend the rioters would be giving the heckler's veto the sanction of American law, and saying that in that case anyone could threaten violence to silence someone whose speech he disliked. Collyer showed her reflexive willingness to submit and acquiesce to savagery when Muise said that to postpone or cancel the ads would be to validate the threat of that one emailer and encourage people to make more such threats. He said that this emailer could even rightly be called a "savage," whereupon Collyer said, "He could be standing behind you" -- as if that should change what Muise would be saying about him, and implying that Muise should curb his speech to appease the violent.

Muise further reminded her that the First Amendment was put into place precisely so as to protect speech that some might find offensive. He also completely torpedoed the idea that the ad is hate speech when Collyer asked him to summarize in his own words what he thought it meant, and he patiently explained that it was calling for support for Israel against those who commit savage attacks against innocent civilians in the name of jihad. Collyer then demonstrated even more vividly that she has no idea what the jihad is and what it's all about, when she complained that our ad wrongly applied the concept of jihad to what she termed a "long-standing territorial dispute" between Israelis and Palestinians -- one that she obviously thinks has nothing to do with jihad.

Finally, Collyer explained that she was going to make no ruling today. This poor, silly woman said she needed to give the case more thought. She is clearly going to take some time to try to figure out a way to circumvent the First Amendment and allow WMATA to kowtow to violent intimidation.

And worst of all? She's a Bush appointee. As we pursue free speech cases around the country, I have come to dread Bush appointees: they always side with the government, no matter what, even against (as Collyer probably will in this case) the Constitution. Clinton and Obama appointees, meanwhile, while they're far to the left, often will see the merits of a case against the establishment elite in a way that the Bush judges don't. This is no endorsement of Obama by any stretch of the imagination. It's just an indication of just how hard times have become for the rule of law and above all for the First Amendment in the United States.

Free speech is in its death throes. Clearly, Collyer is trying to establish a precedent that will allow for the criminalizing of "hate speech" -- which will mean any speech the political elites want to silence. It is indeed a very dark day.

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Fascinating report by Pamela Geller. I look forward to further updates.

If AFDI loses this case, will there be an appeal to a higher court?

Whether Pam's posters are considered a love note or a hate note is not for any judge to decide. The judge's sole concern is whether the gov't transit system has a compelling interest. As others have noted, the determination of "hate speech" classification is in the eye of the beholder. Again, that is not the judge's concern. Since there is no imminent threat, Pam's posters cannot be considered fighting words.

In the absence of any imminent threat or compelling interest, the default setting has always been in our jurisprudence for speech, speech, speech.

A dark day indeed. What can be done about stupid magistrates? As Schiller said in one of his plays, "Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens." This translates to "When confronted with stupidity, the Gods themselves struggle in vain."

How can it be hate speech when it never mentioned an ethnic group?

Is it wrong to tell people to support the civilized man, not the savages?

And how the fck can she say it is hate speech when she is clueless what Jihad means. Don't tell me she is clueless about what a savage and civilized man is? She thinks they're ethnicities?


There are much more worse and offending statements out there that are not considered hate speech

What does the price of tea, in Africa, Asia, and the Middle East have to do with a FREEDOM POSTER in AMERICA? WHO has seen this video? I know hate speech when I see it or hear it. el koran seems to fit the script. FREEDOM--condition of being free of restraints,political independence. LIBERTY---right to act in a manor of one's own choosing,-condition of not being subject to restrictions or control. duh a what is jihad again? AMERICA LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT! alone

The reactions and responses I see from those in the Counter Jihad (from the top on down) seem to look at a Judge Collyer and see only her stupidity, rather than see her as a manifestation of something much deeper and broader in our sociopolitical culture. Notice that neither Spencer nor Geller called her a "Leftist", as she's a Bush apointee. So right there, the "Leftist" meme is insufficient to explain the problem of Western myopia, manifested by Judge Collyer. The problem goes way beyond "Leftism", and there are innumerable other examples beside the good judge to demonstrate this. So far, as far as I can tell, nobody but me seems interested in the nature of this broader, deeper problem. It seems to me that an effective strategy in the war of ideas against this problem would have to integrate an analysis deeper than a rather simplistic adverting to "Leftist fascists" or "Elites" can provide.

Judge is 100% correct.

It is not about first amendment or freedom of speech. " the old saying goes, you can not scream "FIRE, FIRE" inside a crowded theater, when there is no fire....people can get hurt and that is not freedom of speech"

I think judge also understood, the whole fiasco is nothing but to incite violence. I think, it is better for all the dual citizens or so-called American patriots, maybe hiding behind the internet around occupied Palestine in places like Hebron and spewing hate that may lead to violence to benefit Kazari Zionist cause of permanent occupation of Palestine.

All so-called American patriots or dual citizens hiding in occupied Palestine and beating up Palestinian children on a daily basis should leave occupied Palestine and go to Afghanistan to fight the real fanatic Talibaans and show their patriotism for the United States.

time to PRAY for the lady judge to have wisdom.

perhaps she could rule on if the quran is "hate speech". if 4 little posters are so much fuss that they go to court....maybe a "hate speech" ruling on the quran would clear up the world.

who was that wise old ruler who put out the edict: "all women are free to choose what they want to wear, with the exception that all prostitutes are required to wear the burqa." the next day there was not one burga to be seen on the streets.

Please LORD JESUS give the lady judge wisedom and strength. In Jesus Name, Amen.

DANNY, your comment: "the whole fiasco is nothing but to incite violence" is such an excellent description of the quran and the imams who rile up the locals on friday afternoons in the mosques. YOU HAVE HIT THE BULLS EYE with that one! congratulations!

“All so-called American patriots or dual citizens hiding in occupied Palestine and beating up Palestinian children on a daily basis should leave occupied Palestine and go to Afghanistan to fight the real fanatic Talibaans and show their patriotism for the United States.”

American patriots hiding in occupied Palestine so they can beat up Palestinian children?

What ARE you jabbering on about, danny?

Ya know, chewin dem quat leaves cun make a boy mighty weird!

You been into dat quat danny?

Why is the MTA asking to postpone till November the putting up of the posters? Does the MTA want to avoid influencing the presidential election? Does the MTA think Obama's election chances could be hurt by this controversy or by more Mona Eltaways, or by violence around the posters? Are Democratic operatives, perhaps people high up in the Obama campaign, whispering to the MTA?

I agree it is not hate speech. It should be allowed under the freedom of speech / expression.

But I still disagree with the wording of the ad and the use of the word 'savage'. This has muddied the waters somewhat.

Now however she will have to stick with it and run with it.

Have your prayers ever done you any good, besides making you feel good if it does that to you?

"maybe a "hate speech" ruling on the quran would clear up the world."

The Quran can certainly be rules as hate speech but in order to do so your prayers would be of no avail, the matter will have to be taken to court.

The Quran calls for violence against Jews, Christians, idolators, non-believers, gays, apostates.

Who will bell the cat? Will you?

Have your prayers ever done you any good, besides making you feel good if it does that to you?

"maybe a "hate speech" ruling on the quran would clear up the world."

The Quran can certainly be rules as hate speech but in order to do so your prayers would be of no avail, the matter will have to be taken to court.

The Quran calls for violence against Jews, Christians, idolators, non-believers, gays, apostates.

Who will bell the cat? Will you?

Davegreybeard,
When danny talks about "dual citizens" in that comment, he's referring to American Jews. He doesn't want to curse the Jews too openly, because he knows he'll be roundly condemned as an anti-Semite. In talking about "dual citizens," he's saying -- as he's said in the past -- that American Jews are traitors to America, not real Americans, and really only care about Israel. danny hopes to see Israel and its population wiped off the map. Apparently he would like to see American Jews hated by the rest of America.

The judge is 100% wrong.

The true hate speech is the Quran and its contents. After all, Hitler was the true second version of Muhammed - so, no surprises that the Quran generates so much killing and hate.

The Palestine problem is fake and will go away as soon as Palestinian Muslims convert to any civilized ideology.

From the steaming ordure you posted, I've taken a long pair of tongs and pulled out this: '...in occupied Palestine...'

Palestine does not exist, you clown! It is no more real than Scandinavia. You can be Scandinavian, but your country of origin is Denmark, or Sweden, or Finland, etc..

Similarly, you can be Palestinian, but your country of origin is Jordan, or Syria, or wherever.

Palestine is a geographical term, you klutz, just like Scandinavia!

Give me strength!!

@ Rich

On the Scandinavia/Palestine comparison, you told me to brush up on my Geography. Maybe you could watch a short video and brush up on yours.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7ByJb7QQ9U&feature=g-vrec

'Debunking the Palestinian myth'

However, you will need two things: 11 minutes 37 seconds free time, and an open mind.

PS Quoting Wikipedia is a sure way to undermine any argument! It's a lefty tool.

Rich,

I suppose it's not prayer OR action, action OR prayer. Both action and prayer -- or mental behaviors that in certain ways resemble some forms of prayer -- might be useful.

I'm not defining "prayer" narrowly, though. I was once working intensely for several days on trying to turn a book into a teleplay. Among other things, I was thinking about who my actors could be. A man I had met 6 months previously, and not seen since, came to mind. After a couple of days working intensively with all my mental and spiritual energies focused on the project and its future, I called up the man. His wife answered the phone. I reminded her of who I was and where we had met, and told her I was interested in having her husband act in a play based on a book I had been working on, a book written by xxxxxxx. The wife replied, "really? That's odd." "Why?" said I. "Well," she said, "my husband had a dream a day ago. In the dream, a voice said to him 'xxxxxxx has a job for you.'" "What??!!" I replied in amazement. She said, "Yes, and my husband then woke up and said to me, 'honey, who is xxxxxxx?' I answered my husband, 'I don't know, but didn't that young man Traeh, who we met 6 months ago, talk about xxxxxxx?' My husband didn't remember, but very soon went to the library and got out a book by xxxxxxx." "My God! Really?" I replied. "Which of xxxxxxx's books did your husband take out?" She answered, "it was called yyyyyyy." (I'm leaving out the author's name and the book title here.) I replied, "Really??? That is the title I want him to act in!! That's incredible!"

In other words, when I called, he was already reading the very book I wanted him to act in. Now, of course you can dismiss all that as mere coincidence, and while coincidence is certainly possible as an explanation, to me personally it just seems an unbelievable explanation in this case. Not that I know how my intentions were communicated to this actor in one of his dreams. Was it direct from my mind to his? Was it that some invisible messenger felt my intentions and inner urgency while I was working on the play, and conveyed my intentions to the actor's dream?

Admittedly, though, for anyone other than myself, the above is just anecdotal. I don't know if there is any scientific evidence for the efficacy of prayer (i.e., intense, focused, inner activity and spiritual desire of a certain kind). I know that doctors have done a number of scientific tests on the efficacy of prayer on the healing of patients in hospitals. The tests were carried out in various ways, including on patients who had no idea they were being prayed for. I don't know if the preponderance of tests' results falsifies or not the hypothesis that prayer can have efficacy at a distance to enhance healing in people who don't even know they are being prayed for. But the scientific attitude is not to dogmatically assert that prayer has no effect on distant persons. The scientific attitude is to test and find out.

Imagine if this or some other high-ranking judge were able to set the legal precedent that speech critical of Islam itself be deemed illegal.

Would the overt and stealth Islamists suddenly have a change of heart, ditch their agenda, beat pens and swords into plowshares, and be satisfied with living as social and legal equals with the non-Muslim kafir?

Not a chance. The Religion of Submission wants Domination. Convert to Islam, submit to dhimmitude, or die.

If you think otherwise, you are suicidally naive and know little to nothing about Islamic theology/ideology.

>>>>>

There have been roughly 19,700 Islam inspired deadly terror attacks since 911. Will there ever be a letup? Or will Islam inspired Muslim terrorism continue on and on ad infinity?

The Root of Terrorism a la Islamic style, Chapter 1

by ex-Muslim Abul Kasem

The world is fast becoming accustomed to the term 'Islamic Terror.' It is a new genre of global terrorism. Thanks to the Jihadists, Islamic terrorism dominates virtually every News Media of every continent. Sooner or later, the term 'Islamic Terror' may find a place in the English lexicon. With such a plethora of Islamic awareness, the question is: Is Terror a la Islamic fashion something new or is it a product of the early Jihadists' zeal as taught and practiced by Muhammad? Ask any Islamist/Islamic apologist this question and the pithy answer will, most likely be something like: Islam is peaceful, it never advocates violence, the least of all, 'Terrorism' using Islam; Osama bin Ladin and his Jihadists who have hijacked Islam are not true Muslims, the suicide bombers do not represent the true teachings of Islam-..and so on and so forth.

In this detailed article, by exposing the 'true' nature of what Islam is all about, I would like to demolish the above paradigm of the Islamists. Since Islam is firmly rooted in the past, in order to find the root cause/s of the present 'mayhem' by the Islamic fighters, we must analyse the past deeds, actions, philosophical and theological attitudes of the early Jihadists under the leadership of none but Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah. As we proceed, we must, first of all, realise that there is no such thing as the 'moderate Islam,' 'current Islam', or 'future Islam.' It is the past - the actions of millennium ago that propelled all Muslims of yesterday, haunts and impels all the Muslims of today, and will continue doing so tomorrow. We must look back, not forward, to find out the truth about Islam. Just as a tree sustains its life and continues its growth because of its roots that are firmly anchored underground - beyond the ocular visibility, so is Islam. Terrorism is firmly rooted in the very 'lofty' doctrine of an Islamic world visioned by Muhammad. This use of terror tactic is nothing new in Islam; it was the lifeblood through which Muhammad forced his concept of a unipolar world, devoted only to one Semitic God, Allah. In this lengthy treatise, I have chronicled all the events of terror, murder, deceit, lies, intrigue and warfare that had been used to nurture, advance and propagate the very essence of Islam: accept Islam, pay protection money (Jizya) or die. Many readers will be shocked and surprised at the contents of this dissertation and will shake their heads in utter disbelief. Most Muslims will be agitated, angry, frustrated and will surely go on in complete denial mode. To all these readers I would like to say that I, too, went through the same phase. As I took Islam very seriously during my formative years, I started to understand fully its doctrine and its life force, I could not believe that a man who claimed to be the messenger of Allah could ever indulge himself, as well as instruct his followers in mindless murder, loot, plunder, torture and unbound lasciviousness. As you read episodes after episodes of the early terrorism of Islam, you will find eerie similarities with the modern day global terrorism as perpetrated by the Jihadists of today. You will, for sure, discover that all the ingredients of terrorist operations are present, as they were millennium ago; it is, as if, to use the infidel language, the 'reincarnation' (or resurrection) of the past Islamic terrorists. These ingredients are/were:

Persecution and the killing of the unbelievers

Plunder and ethnic cleansing

Political assassination and revenge killing

Gratuitous murder and unabated genocide

Property grab and extreme lasciviousness

Forced conversion/Jizya

Sectarian persecution (destruction of mosques)

Let us now delve into early Islamic history and find out how and why the early Jiahadists did what they did...

More at:
http://islam-watch.org/AbulKasem/RootsTerrorism/RootsTerrorism0.htm

We ex-Muslims living with Islam's formal and informal death penalty for apostasy know for certain that Islam is an evil religion/ideology both in part and on the whole.

Islam is by no means the 'Religion of Peace' as it is commonly called. Islam is primarily a religion of injustice, intolerance, hatred, and violence. The fact is, if I were to say about Muslims what the Qur'an says about non-Muslims, I would be arrested for hate speech. The Qur'an largely preaches discrimination, death, and imposition of its dogma on everyone. Certainly some Muslims will be offended by such statements, but frankly, so what? Judaism and Christianity, the world’s two other major monotheistic religions, have had to face the harshest of scrutiny and criticism for several hundred years which continues to this day. Islam must not be granted any special privileges or be exempt from such treatment – the implications are of tremendous importance.

Here is a recent statement from a group of Bangladeshi apostates living in the UK explaining the reasons why they have abandoned Islam:

"One who claims to be a messenger of God is expected to live a saintly life. He must not be given to lust, he must not be a sexual pervert, and he must not be a rapist, a highway robber, a war criminal, a mass murderer or an assassin. One who claims to be a messenger of God must have a superior character. He must stand above the vices of the people of his time. Yet Muhammad’s life is that of a gangster godfather. He raided merchant caravans, looted innocent people, massacred entire male populations and enslaved the women and children. He raped the women captured in war after killing their husbands and told his followers that it is okay to have sex with their captives (Qur'an 33:50). He assassinated those who criticized him and executed them when he came to power and became de facto despot of Arabia. Muhammad was bereft of human compassion. He was an obsessed man with his dreams of grandiosity and could not forgive those who stood in his way...

The statement continues,

Muhammad was a narcissist, like Hitler, Saddam or Stalin. He was astute and knew how to manipulate people, but his emotional intelligence was less evolved than that of a 6-year-old child. He simply could not feel the pain of others. He brutally massacred thousands of innocent people and pillaged their wealth. His ambitions were big and as a narcissist he honestly believed he is entitled to do as he pleased and commit all sorts of crimes and his evil deeds are justified."

The logical conclusion of this slide into dhimmitude is that
It will become illegal to mention the existence of savagery in case it incites savagery.

Another of one of "W"'s great judicial appointees ...

http://judgepedia.org/index.php/Rosemary_Collyer

... here is another:

http://judgepedia.org/index.php/John_G._Roberts

"W" ... God bless him. His heart is in the right place, but he has no clue as to the true filth that is islam.

Hopefully we can survive "W"'s judicial appointees.

Rumor is that if barry hussein gets a second term he is giving serious consideration to this guy for the next Supreme Court vacancy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hLDjGdJC0Q

Danny, your post about how criticism of Islam is like shouting "fire" in a crowded building implies that any Muslim's default setting is to fight and riot whenever his religion is challenged; that he is incapable of defending his religion with a reasoned argument or finding ways to live peaceably with non-Muslims. This very richly proves the case of real Islamophobes that Muslims are just savages.

@Lemonlime:

The problem with almost all of our judges and leaders is that their whole education has taught them to think of a theology as something completely divorced from life, a sort of frosting on the cake, or a harmless eccentricity of somebody's maiden aunt. Hence, our leaders have been stumbling around utterly clueless over the resurgence of Islamic militancy ever since it blindsided them in the Iranian Revolution, when all eyes were watching to see how soon Iran would turn into a Communist state.

Further, while I'm all for the First Amendment, a long history of the absence of weapons and political violence in theological debate and the tacit peace among major denominations that came about in the Great Awakening of the 1750's, the same has led many to consider that traditional theologies are either completely benign, completely irrelevant, or both. This may be one reason why a relatively conservative judge such as Collyer may see in the proposed ads an attack on one or another group.

"But I still disagree with the wording of the ad and the use of the word 'savage'. This has muddied the waters somewhat."

Myself, I would have preferred "In any war between a civilised culture and a savage one, support the civilised culture".

Also, if the ad clearly indicated that it was a response to anti-Israel ads, I think that neither ad, or both ads, would have to be in court today.

"I see hate speech..." "I see dead people..." forgive me but the kid on 6th sense had way more credence. Oh, God bless, Danny, but the peeps in Portugal and Spain who are yelling 'fire, fire', ain't kidding. Oh, and neither are abundance hate-crimes Muslims are committing against their own and others in the name of 'honour'...the litany of crimes, historical VICES- rape, slavery, mutilation, murder, hate-crimes, religious intolerance etc, are the under belly of every society, but only, as yet, under Islam are they virtues. Think about that...

Cant the judge(s) be challenged, as in Dutch law? (In the lawsuit against Wilders the first set of judges was successfully challenged, in dutch "gewraakt", meaning they had to be replaced by another set, more objective judges)

Danny, you cuddly tembel,

Robert and Pamela don't yell "Fire!" in a crowded theater.
They warn: "watch out for the arsonists in the audience!"

Ah, you want to know what is tembel?
It is a Hebrew word for cretin.

(Have just asked a Hebrew language teacher)

This judge is an embarrassment...But she is not the only one...From the SCOTUS down the self loving legal profession has been busy selling America out to the highest bidder...Over 100 Obama eligibility lawsuits thrown out for lack of 'standing', the SCOTUS refusing to hear eligibility cases, and Roberts selling us into Obamacare slavery for a few pieces of silver...Now this idiot self worshipping judge wants to get her own thirty pieces of silver...Since she has proven herself incompetent, the case should be appealed to a higher court, which is most likely loaded with clones of Collyer, seeking their own 30 pieces of silver...The structure is rotten from top to bottom...Even our local judges act like royalty...Maybe it's chem trails, or something in the water...

When one yells "Fire" in a crowded theater when there is no threat, it is a malicious act, a falsehood used to manipulate human instinctive fear in a group of innocents so as to respond with panic to their own destruction.

So how is pointing out the very real, present dangers of jihad a falsehood?

How is it that the putative victims of jihad, in this case the Israelis but there is scarcely a non-Mohammedan that isn't targeted, are not stampeding in instinctive fear?

How is it that calling the manifestly savage acts of jihadis "savage" is a slight against Mohammedans?

As I recall, when Chief Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes made his analogy likening abuse of free speech to shouting "Fire " in a crowded theater, it was at or around the time of the First World War in a case involving a peace activist. A lawyer or historian could correct me on this if I'm wrong, but I believe Holmes ruled against the activist as there was a clear and present danger against the US homeland presented by the Central Powers. Sometimes there is a fire. And then it beomes a crime not to point that fact out.

"Free speech is in its death throes."

A depressing account. But, no, freedom of speech isn't in its death throes. They want the publicity, they can put me in jail for speaking my mind.

every american should read this book in view of what happened in the district court today

and what is hate speech.

This is the whole book.

http://www.voiceofdharma.org/books/tcqp/

Give me Liberty or Give me Death. Where is Patrick Henry. We have lost the spirit of our American forebears.

Notice how the judge had diffculties in the culcutta petition I referred to before like the judge in this matter was trying to do.

That is right ! The world knows about daily violent Zionist settlers attack on Palestinian children. As a matter of fact this is happening 24/7.

Instead of beating up the Palestinian children and women these terrorist Zionist settlers (many of them dual American citizens) should go to Afghanistan on behalf of Jihadwatch and hate spreading site and fight the real Moslem fanatics in Afghanistan face to face, like real American patriots are fighting right now.

Only cowards beat up the children and women.

Only cowards beat up the children and women.

So the 'Palestinian', Mahoundians who murdered the Fogel family, are what?

Lets see your proof that Zionist 'settlers' are attacking 'Palestinian' children 24/7...Don't those evil Zionist settlers ever sleep? Or do they attack in shifts?

Yes indeed you can appeal. Just ask Shildon Adilson, that Macau hooker enterprise pimp to fund it !

Only cowards beat up the children and women.

And your wonderful President Obama has killed and maimed how many women and children in drone attacks?

NB: Holmes was Associate Justice

So basically, the Judge and Staub agree that muslims are so prone to riots and beheading that IF the Ads run they will set-off the moderate msulims in the USA to go Jihad and suddenly behead passengers.

Wow, talk about the new Bigotry of Lowered-Expectation where white/leftist/liberals assume all muslims are violent and thus....we better not run the ads until the recent global jihad cools off.
Amazing, 6'000'000'000 non-muslims now have to live in fear of being murdered by the muslim minority on Earth just because muslims have neither the will, nor brains to flush out the "Few" misunderstanders from their mosques or communities that are causing all these false perceptions of their peaceful faith.

In an attempt to rule against Pamela, Judge Collyer is trying to marginalize the meaning of free speech. She is attempting to do so, by calling it hate speech. Expressing one's hate for something, is as much a part of free speech, as expressing one's love for something else.


Radical Islamists express their love of jihad by word as well as deed. We inturn express our hatred for it. "Behead those who oppose Islam" is free speech and by it's definition, savagery. Don't we have the right to call it savagery ? especially when it's being practiced on civilized man ?

The right to express one's hatred for jihadist savagery is free speech.Trying to encumber it, is a crime. A crime against our governing constitution.

That's an interesting viewpoint, Kepha, you provided about how in the West religion has come to be seen as innocuous principally due to the fact that religious wars in the West were really no more after the Thirty Years War and vicious theological disputes ceased, for all intents and purposes, as of the 18th century. Too bad judges and others in the West can't comprehend that an exception to all this has to be made for Islam, which is not just another religion.

LemonLime, as usual (though not always), also makes a good point by his indication of a deeper problem out there, which is how PC/MC rot has infected the body politic of one Western nation after another quite terribly. At least I think this was his point, though he can correct me here on this thread should I be wrong. Take care, Kepha.

It is not about first amendment or freedom of speech. " the old saying goes, you can not scream "FIRE, FIRE" inside a crowded theater, when there is no fire....people can get hurt and that is not freedom of speech"

1. The actions of Muslims -- even inflammable ones -- are not "fire"

2. There is a "fire" here in the figurative sense; and though the "is" here is relative and subjective (relative to Spencer & Geller's interpretation based upon a mountain of facts), so too is the contrary interpretatin, that there is no "fire" in the figurative sense

3. Because of #1, #2 is irrelevant anyway to the issue of the protection of free speech.

"But I still disagree with the wording of the ad and the use of the word 'savage'. This has muddied the waters somewhat."

We must take the long view. When treating a painful wound, sometimes a treatment causes short term increased pain and discomfort, on the way to long-term healing. I see the word "savage" as a nice little thorn carefully placed in the middle of this campaign -- impeccably immune to any legal criticism, objectively speaking.

We as a society are going to have to go through this phase anyway -- of making our rhetoric starker and more vividly accurate. We can't walk on eggshells forever, and just hope that Muslims mass-murder enough of us so that the rest of our myopic fellow citizens wake up. What a reprehensible stance! No, we have to start pushing the envelope now. The rate at which we push, and how we do so, may be up to varying tactical decisions and flavors (I'd like to see more provocative language, frankly). But it has to be done, or gangrene will set in, and the metastasizing mayhem of Muslims + our continuing retardation & myopia will = the loss of a limb (if we're lucky!) of our Body Geopolitic.

Kepha,

"The problem with almost all of our judges and leaders is that their whole education has taught them to think of a theology as something completely divorced from life, a sort of frosting on the cake, or a harmless eccentricity of somebody's maiden aunt. "

That's one piece of the puzzle here. Another that is obviously affecting Judge Collyer is the #1 axiom of the PC MC paradigm: Respect the Ethnic Other past all point of reason. Her repeated ejaculations about "this is racist!" demonstrate that beyond a reasonable doubt.

The Judge went out of her way to validate and substantiate the ridiculous premise of the Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority (WMATA), that the AFDI pro-freedom ad would endanger passengers on the D.C. subways and thus must not be posted, or at least delayed until some (fanciful) time when the jihad threat would subside.
Which is just a complicated way of saying "because we have been threatened".

I suppose the judge imagined that by saying it indirectly that nobody would get the point and she could avoid blame.

When the idiot Collyer said:

I see hate speech. When you defend this ad as core political speech, I have a problem with that."
... she's saying "because and I say so!"

It is purely subjective and completely out of place in a court.

=======

Ultimately, Geller doesn't state who in particular the savages are, it is left to the reader to infer that they are those who commit savagery under the banner of jihad.

So those who choose to (pretend to) feel personally offended are really damning themselves.

It's a bit like the old Bill Cosby routine about the shop class where some kid put a bullet in the furnace as a prank.

Teacher: Who put the bullet in the furnace?

Class: ... silence ...

Teacher: Whoever put the bullet in the furnace, his mama
wears army boots!

Kid in back: Don't you talk about my mama!

The right to free speech is not unlimited. You may not be allowed to say things that will endanger peoples’ lives. For example, "fighting words" (calling on people to harm others). Not the case here (supporting people who are under unwarranted attack is not the same thing).

Another common argument is the "shouting fire in a crowded theater” argument. You can't do this because it might cause a panic, but you can if there really is a fire. In fact, if there is a fire you should let people know, that speech is not restricted. Note the difference. In the first case you are shouting something false, and in the second something true; both are likely to lead to the same result (panic), but only one is not protected speech. In the case of the ads, the situation is clearly the second. The ads say that there are "savages" out there, and the argument is that the ads must be restricted because there are "savages" out there who might hurt us. In other words, the ads are completely accurate. It is not free speech to intentionally lie, especially if it will result in a dangerous situation. The fact that these people are worried about violent attacks taking place, prove the validity of the ads and that they are protected speech.

If we accepted the argument that we can be denied our rights because someone might hurt us, then it would follow that we cannot allow witnesses in a mob murder trial to testify because the mob might try to silence them. Imagine the type of life that would be. We would have no rights and live in constant terror, which is what the opponents of the ads are telling us to do.

The Constitution requires the government to protect the rights of US citizens above everything else. There is no precedent for the position that the government may take away your rights because "savages" want to take them away and are willing to use force to do it. That is way the government is allowed to establish a military and law enforcement to protect us.

Why don't these brain damaged unelected black robed despots ever think of the United States Constitution and the Oath they took? Everytime you read where these despots are mentioned they're trashing the Constitution and making judgments almost always in favor of the trash talking buffoons,i.e., Muslims, ACLU, SPLC, etc., etc.. America has enemies sure, but our biggest enemy is from our gutted and very broken Judicial System. America has an enemy in Islam and Shariah and our unelected black robed despots are paving the way for that enemy, and our elected politicians have their heads stuffed up their derrieres and suffering from oxygen deprivation and clouding their judgments and not doing the jobs they were elected to do. Since Congress is supposed to make the laws of the Land, they have failed in that Responsibility and the CITIZENS of this great nation are left to suffer at the hands of these unelected despots and our sworn enemies, Islam and Liberal Trash talking Lawyers.

Didn't the U.S. Supreme Court rule in favor of the right to free speech for the Westboro Baptist Church two years ago when they were carrying their despicable signs that said: THANK GOD FOR DEAD SOLDIERS? I seem to recall that one of the Justices said in the majority opinion that no matter how reprehensible the message was these people had a right to carry the signs.

But now that the target of a anti-Jihad message is NOT a Christian, it seems the whole argument is being made again.

CLIMATE OF FEAR AND INTIMIDATION: ISLAM AND THE DEATH OF FREE SPEECH:

Here's a very incomplete list of organizations or people self-censoring, or hiring bodyguards, or going into hiding, or taking other precautions, and sometimes getting killed or wounded after receiving death threats and violence from Muslims following the example of Muhammad, who said there would be no punishment for murdering someone who had insulted him.

Amateur Filmmaker (Pakistan official offers $100,000 reward for killing of maker of anti-Muhammad film);

Yale University Press (self-censors in response to Muslim death threats);

Director of the museum in the Hague, Wim van Krimpen (self-censors in response to Muslim death threats);

Metropolitan Museum of Art (self-censors in response to Muslim death threats);

National Archives of Canada (self-censors in response to Muslim death threats);

Russian radio host (stabbed for criticizing Muhammad)

Audience in Lecture Hall, Queen Mary College, London (man goes to front of hall, films audience, announces he will track down anyone who says a negative word of Muhammad. The lecture -- on Islamic law -- is canceled.)

Monty Python comedian (self-censors in fear of Muslims)

French newspaper (after being firebombed for printing a cartoon of Muhammad, the next day the paper prints that cartoon again)

Hollywood (self-censors by canceling a movie project about Jews in Malmo, Sweden, after learning of frequent Muslim threats and acts of violence against Jews in Malmo);

Talk-show host David Letterman (At Al Qaeda website a frequent commenter calls on Muslims to cut out Letterman's tongue and kill him.)

Paris Dipersico, author (beaten by two Muslim men for writing things "against Islam," such as "Islam is a religion of 'peace', and Muslims will kill you to prove it.")

UK religious studies teacher Gary Smith (Muslims hit him over the head with an iron bar, fracturing his skull, hemmorhaging his brain, breaking his jaw, and slashing his face, for not teaching Islam as they deem appropriate)

Norwegian politicians (Iraqi-born cleric Mullah Krekar threatens politicians with death if he's deported from Norway).

State Senator Greg Ball (receives suspicious package with greeting "Asa Lamu Laikum Dead Man Walking," (the first part of which is Arabic for "peace be upon you") ;

2010 Tennessee candidate for Congress Lou Ann Zelenik (death threats from Muslims);

Barrister Tom Zreika (seeks police protection after non-stop phone threats from Muslims);

Japanese translator of Rushdie, Hitoshi Igarashi (murdered);

Norwiegan translator of Rushdie, William Nygaard (shot);

Italian translator of Rushdie, Ettore Capriolo (knifed);

French singer Veronique Sanson (self-censors in response to Muslim death threats);

Artist Molly Norris (self-censors in response to Muslim death threats, changed name, went into hiding);

The producers of South Park (self-censor in response to Muslim death threats);

Journalist Lawrence O'Donnell (self-censors in response to Muslim death threats);

Cartoonist Lars Vilks (house firebombed);

Philosopher Robert Redeker (in hiding, under government protection);

Filmmaker Theo Van Gogh (murdered);

Author and former member of Dutch parliament Hirsi Ali (full-time bodyguards);

Author Salman Rushdie (in hiding, under UK govt. protection);

Danish newspaper Jyllands Posten (bodyguards hired);

And again Jyllands Posten (five jihadists discovered planning to shoot as many people as possible);

Atheist Sabri Husibi (death threats from Muslims);

Lyricist Javed Akhtar (death threats from Muslims);

Cartoonist Kurt Westergaard (almost killed by a Muslim with an axe);

Director of the film 2012; the comedian Penn Jillette; the British potter Grayson Perry (all three self-censor in response to Muslim death threats);

Lawyer Majed Moughni (death threat from Muslim);

Author Taslima Nasreen (self-censors in response to Muslim death threats);

Disc jockey/musician Jakub Rene Kosik (self-censors in response to Muslim death threats);

Coptic Orthodox priest Zakaria Botros (Al Qaeda bounty of $60 million on his head);

Pop star Deeyah (hires extra bodyguards);

Politician Shiria Khatun (forced by Muslim threats to her children to dress in a "less Western" manner);

Christian minister Dr. Peter Hammond
(death threat from Muslim);

Actor Omar Sharif (Muslims call for his murder);

Artist Sooreh Hera (self-censors in response to Muslim threats and forced into hiding);

Artist Sarah Maple (gallery workers threatened, gallery window smashed, 24-hour police protection);

Beatle Paul McCartney (death threats from Muslims);

150 Austrian Coptic Christians (Austrian interior ministry found jihadist list targeting each of them for violent attack);

100+ Canadian-Arab Christians (each one targeted on an Al Qaeda website);

Volvo and Ikea (threatened by jihadists);

UK Muslim scientist Usama Hasan (self-censors in response to Muslim death threats);

Islam expert Robert Spencer gets a death threat; and another death threat; and another death threat; and yet anoth...well, you get the idea.

Robert Spencer continues to speak out, but countless others are self-censoring in response to the climate of intimidation. The growth of Islam means the death of civil liberties and human rights. It's long past time to resist.

-- Quoting Islam

"hate speech"?! ...of course the judge is wrong; this is not hate speech. Seems she has bought into the twisted notion put forth by islamists and the left that speaking against islam--armed with the truth--is somehow wrong and hateful. Jihadists ARE savages, so snap out of it!

In my opinion jihadists are *evil barbarians*, but the judge would probably "hate" my idea.

What would the judge prefer that jihadists be called in the ad then? ...strugglers!

Oh yeah, those poor jihadists and their internal struggle ...except it doesn't remain internal, but instead turns into out 'n out external savagery!

Those willing to look at and speak the truth about islam and company keep coming up with the same conclusion: they're savages! Nothing else fits. Sorry, judge, but you're terribly wrong.

Mr. Muise could have solved the whole dilemma by suggesting that instead of moving the ads away from a scene of a possible riot and terrorist attack that anyone fearful of that could: Men wear long false beards and women just put on a headscarf or some such thing to show solidarity with the jihadists and make them feel more welcome and at home in the subway.

Yes the Supreme Court did indeed rule in favor of free speech for Westboro lunatics 8 to 1. The one dissenter was Judge Alito who according to wikipedia "is a conservative with a libertarian streak". Just as Pamela said in the last paragraphs of this article, my observation too has been that conservative judges usually side with the government, even if it means trashing the US Constitution.

The liberal judges on the other hand tend to side with Free Speech, and there are multiple examples from the past. But would they do the same when Islamists challenge Free Speech?

One major difference between Islamists and all the others who have challenged the govt for Free Speech rights, is that Islamists are violent and don't hesitate to kill. The Westboro people were disgusting, but they were NOT violent. The govt too is NOT violent towards the judges. But all judges, no matter how liberal, are full aware that they would not be as safe as before if they rule Free Speech to hold supremacy over Islam and Muslims.

The fear of violence against oneself can be a game changer. Would the liberal judges side with Free Speech when faced with cases where Muslims are involved?

I write as a lawyer, and I could not disagree more with your assessment that conservative judges are more likely to trash the Constitution than liberal judges. It's liberal judges who found a federal right to an abortion in Roe v. Wade (where the hell does this exist in the Constitution?). It's the four liberal judges on the Supreme Court (plus Roberts) who sided with ObamaCare, an unconstitutional mandate if ever there were one. It's liberal judges who have upheld stupid hate speech codes on college campuses. It's liberal judges who have upheld discriminatory affirmative action quota systems, thus negating true equality under the law. And I could go on and on. Really, I'm stunned by your legal ignorance. Your turn if you can.

"Is it wrong to tell people to support the civilized man, not the savages?"

Muslim/apologist outrage demonstrates that the outraged know who the savages are.

From Bill Foley
To commentators on Jihad Watch
First of all, I want to thank the person who—in a comment—referred to the link muslimbrotherhoodinamerica.com, a brilliant 10-part audio presented by Frank Gaffney, which documents in detail how the Muslim Brotherhood is conducting a stealth jihad in America. I urge everyone to view this and to disseminate the knowledge of it to as many people as possible. It is a difficult task to convince people of the evil of Muhammad and Islam; however, it is easier to show the civilization jihad by the Muslim Brotherhood, which they are carrying out in the USA. We will accomplish little by preaching to the choir with our comments on this blog. We must combat the Muslim Brotherhood by spreading the truth about what they are doing here in America. Please urge people to view muslimbrotherhoodinamerica.com.

A film about the Muslim Brotherhood in America:

The Project: Part One
The Project: Part Two

The Muslim Brotherhood in America: Ten Part Video Course
Overview
Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4
Part 5
Part 6
Part 7
Part 8
Part 9
Part 10

I am not a lawyer. I was actually looking for someone knowledged to respond, so thank you for responding. I'm glad my perception of liberal judges is proven incorrect.

Justice Alito dissenting in the Westboro case must then be an exception.

Buraq I wonder if you realise how ridiculous your statements are?

You claimed - to someone else - "Palestine does not exist, you clown! It is no more real than Scandinavia."

This is like saying Germany doesnt exist, its no more real than Antarctica. Or New York doesnt exist, it's no more real than Russia.

Since Antarctica is real and so is Russia and both exist the first statements are absurd.

Palestine exists today. It exists as a geographical area, and as a state (Gaza and the West Bank) recognised by 130 members of the UN. The people who live there are Palestinians.

It existed in the Past in Roman times during the British mandate.

Have the borders changed? Sure, but so have the borders of Germany, Poland, Austria, hundreds of other countries....

Claiming that Wikipedia is "a lefty tool" is not a refutation of facts. If someone says 2+2=4 you dont refute the argument by saying he's a lefty too, idiot, or your favourite 'clown'

PS Whereas you strenuously argue that Palestine and Palestinians dont exist, Israel recognises they do under the 1993, Oslo Accords.

Buraq I wonder if you realise how ridiculous your statements are?

You claimed - to someone else - "Palestine does not exist, you clown! It is no more real than Scandinavia."

This is like saying Germany doesnt exist, its no more real than Antarctica. Or New York doesnt exist, it's no more real than Russia.

Since Antarctica is real and so is Russia and both exist the first statements are absurd.

Palestine exists today. It exists as a geographical area, and as a state (Gaza and the West Bank) recognised by 130 members of the UN. The people who live there are Palestinians.

It existed in the Past in Roman times during the British mandate.

Have the borders changed? Sure, but so have the borders of Germany, Poland, Austria, hundreds of other countries....

Claiming that Wikipedia is "a lefty tool" is not a refutation of facts. If someone says 2+2=4 you dont refute the argument by saying he's a lefty too, idiot, or your favourite 'clown'

PS Whereas you strenuously argue that Palestine and Palestinians dont exist, Israel recognises they do under the 1993, Oslo Accords.

traeh dont expect me to read or take seriously your confused ramblings.

Roughly I take it what you are saying is dont pray for a Rolls Royce, God doesn't work that way, you have to steal the Rolls Royce and ask God for forgiveness.

traeh dont expect me to read or take seriously your confused ramblings.

Roughly I take it what you are saying is dont pray for a Rolls Royce, God doesn't work that way, you have to steal the Rolls Royce and ask God for forgiveness.

Alito's dissent in the Westboro case, if I remember correctly, went to the issue of intentional infliction of emotional distress, an actionable civil offense under many circumstances. He weighed in in favor of this over the free speech issue. I can see his point even though I disagree with it. I would have voted with the majority had I a vote, all the while appalled at the abuse of freedom by the Westboro nutjobs. As Mark Twain observed, Americans can say almost anything they want to but have the good sense not to exercise this right on many occasions. Unfortunately, in today's age many have lost that good sense and thus the Constitution is stretched to its limits even more than before.

Palestine in some physical geographical sense can be said to exist as one of many names for the same real estate, some other names being through the ages Canaan, the Promised Land and Israel, but in a political geographical sense Palestine is a modern concoction that is designed to delegitimatize Israel and thus saying Palestine doesn't exist in this political sense is a perfectly arguable point one can make.

Am I slow on the uptake here, or did Rich come out of the closet in this thread...?

"a political geographical sense Palestine is a modern concoction that is designed to delegitimatize Israel."

Did the British designate the Palestine mandate to "delegitimatize" Israel, when Israel didnt exist when Palestine did?


"thus saying Palestine doesn't exist in this political sense is a perfectly arguable point one can make."

What political sense are you talking about?

"a political geographical sense Palestine is a modern concoction that is designed to delegitimatize Israel."

Did the British designate the Palestine mandate to "delegitimatize" Israel, when Israel didnt exist when Palestine did?


"thus saying Palestine doesn't exist in this political sense is a perfectly arguable point one can make."

What political sense are you talking about?

@danny

"the old saying goes, you can not scream "FIRE, FIRE" inside a crowded theater, when there is no fire"

There is another old saying that goes like this...

"We reap what we sow"

Taught in the koran...

Koran (chapter and verse given for proof)


047.004 - Beheadings

033.052 - Gang Rape of female 'infidels'

005.033 - Crucifixions

008.067 - Treason (perjury in a non-muslim court is commanded when defending islam)

033.061 - Genocide "without mercy"

005.041 - Racism

005.041 O Messenger! let not those grieve thee, who race each other into unbelief: whether it be among those whosay "We believe" with their lips but whose hearts have no faith; or it be among the Jews,- men who will listen to any lie

And to FORCE YOU to stay on this subject (the koran is causing MUCH sorrow, pain and destruction) Let me point out to you what is taught in the New Testament, an advanced reply to the often repsonse (that other religions are no better).....

Do Not Lie

Do not Steal

Do not Cheat

Do no Murder

Do not Covet

Beyond these carnal commands in Christianity - THERE ARE NO MORE.

So........Do you believe we should be allowing the imans to preach on non-muslim soil? And do you believe that it is acceptable to be handing out korans to children?.....our next generation?....which is precisely why we are in this mess to begin with....thanks to the previous generation who helped to spread such vile teachings.

We reap what we sow.

Any judge who defends those teachings of the koran is corrupt - AND/OR - if the a judge is not aware of these very simple and unchangable facts - then they should not be judging such a case.

If enough decent citizens stand up to the media and the leaders (while being armed with the facts)......maybe, just maybe - There will be hope for the next gerneration so that they don't have to endure living with...........

047.004 - Beheadings

033.052 - Gang Rape of female 'infidels'

005.033 - Crucifixions

008.067 - Treason (perjury in a non-muslim court is commanded when defending islam)

033.061 - Genocide "without mercy"

005.041 - Racism

I guess the honorable judge could not block the loopholes within the first amendment in her final analysis and change of mind. Congratulation to the winner.

However, judge did made her point clear, which seem to me, she is saying in simple terms " all these ISLAMOPHOBIA AND HATE spreading machines of Zionism is nothing but to smoke screen real debate to end permanent occupation of Palestine by the Zionist and relentless violence instigated by nobody but the Zionist neo-cons foot soldiers and they are behind all these fiasco to prolong occupation of Palestine."

You are in desperate need of an attitude adjustment ...

God says:

"I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you." -- Genesis 12:3

Of course God is referring to Israel ...

So consider yourself warned.

What closet are you talking about lemonlime?

I say what is true and one of the things I have observed is you are a thumping idiot.

1. If you think a person is a troll, like danny, you dont engage him in an argument.

2. If you do engage him in an argument, after all trolls are usually idiots, specially Islamic trolls, they have to be to follow a person like Muhammad and the Quran, then you dont make false statements while doing so.

3. You be brief and refute the absurd part of his argument.

4. If you engage in an argument with him and cant see what is wrong with his argument and instead descend into a slanging match with him, and make all kinds of irrelevant or false statements yourself, then you are at least as big an idiot as him, if not bigger.

Now let me help you out with this idiot danny, since you idiots have failed to see what is wrong with what he has said.

@danny "It is not about first amendment or freedom of speech. " the old saying goes, you can not scream "FIRE, FIRE" inside a crowded theater, when there is no fire....people can get hurt and that is not freedom of speech"

danny you imbecile its not an "old saying", its against the law! You cant yell fire in a cinema hall, you cant yell bomb in a plane, you cant prank call 911.

Reason as you said people can get hurt, directly by that action. You are liable for that hurt and damage because you caused it.

But you can say the Quran is hate speech, you can say Muhammad was a paedophile, a mass murderer, liar etc. Because 1 it is free speech and 2 its is the truth.

If Muslims kill because you say all that then THEY are accountable for their violence not you.

Get this simple fact into your thick head. And you too lemonlime and anyone else who has not understood and this is the end of the discussion.

Precisely! I've been keeping an eye on Rich for some time. He seems to be on the side of the angels, and then he lets slip something and bang!, you wonder if he's kosher!

My argument that 'Palestine' is geographical reference like Scandinavia is based on a neat comparison I picked up from Daniel Pipes. The comparison is not exactly the same, but it's close enough to be useful.

For example, if a group of terrorists said that Denmark should get of Scandinavia or face an intifada and bombings, the Danish government would be nonplussed, to say the least. Scandinavia, like Palestine, has never had a unique existence with a capital city, rulers, a currency, a history of literature or law or anything else.

In the end, just to get peace, Denmark might say, "Oh well, OK, have a piece of our land and set up your fantasy state of Scandinavia, if it keeps you quiet."

That's pretty much the situation with Israel now and the so-called Palestinians.

What the F@#$K is kosher Burag? Is it the Jewish equivalent of Haram? I'm not a f@#cking American. Try and explain what you want to say in English.

"My argument that 'Palestine' is geographical reference like Scandinavia is based on a neat comparison I picked up from Daniel Pipes."

Try and use your own brain for a change. Your argument makes no sense.

I've laid out the facts for you and all you can do to counter them is to call Wikipedia "a lefty tool" and say you picked up something from Daniel Pipes.

You need to brush up your English, logic, geography, history, general knowledge and knowledge of current affairs. Come back and talk to me when you have a bit of education.

What the F@#$K is kosher Burag? Is it the Jewish equivalent of Haram? I'm not a f@#cking American. Try and explain what you want to say in English.

"My argument that 'Palestine' is geographical reference like Scandinavia is based on a neat comparison I picked up from Daniel Pipes."

Try and use your own brain for a change. Your argument makes no sense.

I've laid out the facts for you and all you can do to counter them is to call Wikipedia "a lefty tool" and say you picked up something from Daniel Pipes.

You need to brush up your English, logic, geography, history, general knowledge and knowledge of current affairs. Come back and talk to me when you have a bit of education.

The Arab Muslim world didn't even want a separate state, call it Palestine if you like, once the British Mandate was to end. Arab Muslims wanted the region attached to Syria. Palestine as some kind of political entity which is Arab Muslim only became endorsed by the Arab Muslim world in the 1960s as yet another way of countering and eventually eliminating the existence of Israel. For this reason, one can argue, and I do argue, that "Palestine" as some kind of country in today's world is born out of hate, desperation and defeat and thus is not entitled to serious consideration. In short, it's bogus.

If any people on the planet have forfeited the right to have a country, it's the so-called Palestinian Arabs. They have exhibited stupidity, greed, hate, non-productivity, a want-it-all approach, all of this coupled with never reigning in their own terrroism that has made me conclude they don't deserve a country.

And I agree with LemonLime and Buraq about you. You come across as unhinged, like the crazy uncle who somehow got out of the attic (or closet) where he has to be kept. Get a grip, will ya'.

That's "reining" and not "reigning."

About Wellington's unremarkably factual statement alluding to the vicious propaganda exploitation by Muslims (and their dhimmi dimwits) of the terms "Palestine" and "Palestinian", Rich asks the flabbergasting question:

What political sense are you talking about?

Somehow, I don't think this astonishing question -- posed here on the windy nosebleedingly elevated slopes of this veritable mountain of data, Jihad Watch, atop innumerable stories over the years illuminating the "political sense" of the P terms -- indicates that Rich just fell off the falafel truck this morning. I suspect a little more judiciously pertinent probing will eventually serve to dislodge the mask.

Ok let me take the arguments one by one.

Firstly Buraqs:

"For example, if a group of terrorists said that Denmark should get of Scandinavia or face an intifada and bombings, the Danish government would be nonplussed, to say the least. Scandinavia, like Palestine, has never had a unique existence with a capital city, rulers, a currency, a history of literature or law or anything else."

Here the implication is, by corollary to Palestine:

1. There was no political/administrative area known as Palestine at the time of Israels' founding but there was Israel.

2. The people living in Palestine were a group of terrorists.

3. This group of terrorists told the Israeli Government that they should get out of Palestine or face an intifada and bombings at which the Israeli government were nonplussed, to say the least.

Does this fit in with the facts? Poorly at best.

1. There was a political/administrative area known as Palestine at the time of Israels founding but there was no Israel, prior to that.

2. The non-Jewish people living in Palestine (Arabs / Syrians call them who or what you wish) were legitimate owners of their land.

3. Israel has been calling them Palestinians too. They were not nonplussed about who they were.

Now yours:

I presume you have taken your argument from here:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths3/MFroots.html#2

Here they argue:

1. The Hebrews entered the Land of Israel about 1300 B.C.E.

2. The Jewish people were finally driven from their homeland in 135 C.E.

3. Prof. Philip Hitti, testified against partition before the Anglo-American Committee in 1946, he said: “There is no such thing as ‘Palestine’ in history, absolutely not.”

4. The First Congress of Muslim-Christian Associations in Jerusalem in 1919 adopted the following resolution:

"We consider Palestine as part of Arab Syria, as it has never been separated from it at any time. We are connected with it by national, religious, linguistic, natural, economic and geographical bonds."

5. In 1937, a local Arab leader, Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi, told the Peel Commission, which ultimately suggested the partition of Palestine: “There is no such country as Palestine! ‘Palestine’ is a term the Zionists invented! There is no Palestine in the Bible. Our country was for centuries part of Syria.”

6. Palestinian Arab nationalism is largely a post-World War I phenomenon that did not become a significant political movement until after the 1967 Six-Day War.

You say

"The Arab Muslim world didn't even want a separate state, call it Palestine if you like, once the British Mandate was to end. Arab Muslims wanted the region attached to Syria."

Firstly you say "The Arab Muslim world" and then go on to say "Arab Muslims" - are you talking about people living in the region of Palestine at the time or those living outside it or both?

The questions are: How many of those living in the Palestine territory wanted this? If they did want this why was this an illegitimate demand? If Quebecians want to separate from Canada be independent, Join France or whatever, would that be illegitimate? If Canada wanted to join the US would that be illegitimate?

Now I will take the arguments of the link I gave:

1. What stands out is that wars and conquests determined who lived in the area.

2. There was definitely a view among the people who lived there that Palestine should be part of Syria.

3. Palestinian Arab nationalism was largely a post-World War I phenomenon that did not become a significant political movement until after the 1967 Six-Day War.

So what? Indian Nationalism didn't become significant till during Gandhi's time. There was no concept of a united India comprising of those territories before that. Does that make it illegitimate?

"If any people on the planet have forfeited the right to have a country, it's the so-called Palestinian Arabs. They have exhibited stupidity, greed, hate, non-productivity, a want-it-all approach, all of this coupled with never reigning in their own terrroism that has made me conclude they don't deserve a country."

I agree that the Arabs at the time of the formation of Israel exhibited hate, stupidity and greed, this has been compounded by Islam. They were defeated in war and Israel is a fact and has the right to exist. But if they were to abandon that hate, adopt secularism, their demand to have a Palestinian state would be a legitimate one.

My dad is a historian (among other things) and being a Kiwi I can look on things in a non-biased way.

Ok let me take the arguments one by one.

Firstly Buraqs:

"For example, if a group of terrorists said that Denmark should get of Scandinavia or face an intifada and bombings, the Danish government would be nonplussed, to say the least. Scandinavia, like Palestine, has never had a unique existence with a capital city, rulers, a currency, a history of literature or law or anything else."

Here the implication is, by corollary to Palestine:

1. There was no political/administrative area known as Palestine at the time of Israels' founding but there was Israel.

2. The people living in Palestine were a group of terrorists.

3. This group of terrorists told the Israeli Government that they should get out of Palestine or face an intifada and bombings at which the Israeli government were nonplussed, to say the least.

Does this fit in with the facts? Poorly at best.

1. There was a political/administrative area known as Palestine at the time of Israels founding but there was no Israel, prior to that.

2. The non-Jewish people living in Palestine (Arabs / Syrians call them who or what you wish) were legitimate owners of their land.

3. Israel has been calling them Palestinians too. They were not nonplussed about who they were.

Now yours:

I presume you have taken your argument from here:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths3/MFroots.html#2

Here they argue:

1. The Hebrews entered the Land of Israel about 1300 B.C.E.

2. The Jewish people were finally driven from their homeland in 135 C.E.

3. Prof. Philip Hitti, testified against partition before the Anglo-American Committee in 1946, he said: “There is no such thing as ‘Palestine’ in history, absolutely not.”

4. The First Congress of Muslim-Christian Associations in Jerusalem in 1919 adopted the following resolution:

"We consider Palestine as part of Arab Syria, as it has never been separated from it at any time. We are connected with it by national, religious, linguistic, natural, economic and geographical bonds."

5. In 1937, a local Arab leader, Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi, told the Peel Commission, which ultimately suggested the partition of Palestine: “There is no such country as Palestine! ‘Palestine’ is a term the Zionists invented! There is no Palestine in the Bible. Our country was for centuries part of Syria.”

6. Palestinian Arab nationalism is largely a post-World War I phenomenon that did not become a significant political movement until after the 1967 Six-Day War.

You say

"The Arab Muslim world didn't even want a separate state, call it Palestine if you like, once the British Mandate was to end. Arab Muslims wanted the region attached to Syria."

Firstly you say "The Arab Muslim world" and then go on to say "Arab Muslims" - are you talking about people living in the region of Palestine at the time or those living outside it or both?

The questions are: How many of those living in the Palestine territory wanted this? If they did want this why was this an illegitimate demand? If Quebecians want to separate from Canada be independent, Join France or whatever, would that be illegitimate? If Canada wanted to join the US would that be illegitimate?

Now I will take the arguments of the link I gave:

1. What stands out is that wars and conquests determined who lived in the area.

2. There was definitely a view among the people who lived there that Palestine should be part of Syria.

3. Palestinian Arab nationalism was largely a post-World War I phenomenon that did not become a significant political movement until after the 1967 Six-Day War.

So what? Indian Nationalism didn't become significant till during Gandhi's time. There was no concept of a united India comprising of those territories before that. Does that make it illegitimate?

"If any people on the planet have forfeited the right to have a country, it's the so-called Palestinian Arabs. They have exhibited stupidity, greed, hate, non-productivity, a want-it-all approach, all of this coupled with never reigning in their own terrroism that has made me conclude they don't deserve a country."

I agree that the Arabs at the time of the formation of Israel exhibited hate, stupidity and greed, this has been compounded by Islam. They were defeated in war and Israel is a fact and has the right to exist. But if they were to abandon that hate, adopt secularism, their demand to have a Palestinian state would be a legitimate one.

My dad is a historian (among other things) and being a Kiwi I can look on things in a non-biased way.

What political sense are you talking about?

"Somehow, I don't think this astonishing question -- posed here on the windy nosebleedingly elevated slopes of this veritable mountain of data, Jihad Watch,..."

I want to be gentle with you Lemonlime. Maybe I have been too harsh.

So I will just repost your attempt at an argument against danny:

It is not about first amendment or freedom of speech. " the old saying goes, you can not scream "FIRE, FIRE" inside a crowded theater, when there is no fire....people can get hurt and that is not freedom of speech"

1. The actions of Muslims -- even inflammable ones -- are not "fire"

2. There is a "fire" here in the figurative sense; and though the "is" here is relative and subjective (relative to Spencer & Geller's interpretation based upon a mountain of facts), so too is the contrary interpretatin, that there is no "fire" in the figurative sense

3. Because of #1, #2 is irrelevant anyway to the issue of the protection of free speech.

I dont know if anyone understands what you are saying - I certainly dont.

What political sense are you talking about?

"Somehow, I don't think this astonishing question -- posed here on the windy nosebleedingly elevated slopes of this veritable mountain of data, Jihad Watch,..."

I want to be gentle with you Lemonlime. Maybe I have been too harsh.

So I will just repost your attempt at an argument against danny:

It is not about first amendment or freedom of speech. " the old saying goes, you can not scream "FIRE, FIRE" inside a crowded theater, when there is no fire....people can get hurt and that is not freedom of speech"

1. The actions of Muslims -- even inflammable ones -- are not "fire"

2. There is a "fire" here in the figurative sense; and though the "is" here is relative and subjective (relative to Spencer & Geller's interpretation based upon a mountain of facts), so too is the contrary interpretatin, that there is no "fire" in the figurative sense

3. Because of #1, #2 is irrelevant anyway to the issue of the protection of free speech.

I dont know if anyone understands what you are saying - I certainly dont.

What the hell is your overall point? Look, you either know that Islam is so screwed up, to the point of being, in effect, spiritual Nazism or you don't know this---and if you don't know this, then this is your problem, not mine.

Why defend a people (the so-called Palestinian Arabs) who are overwhelmingly beholden to an ideology, i.e., Islam, that is a drag on the whole human race and which desires the obliteration of the Jewish state, Israel, where Arab Muslims have more rights (bet you won't address this reality) than do Arabs in any majority Arab country.

Your turn, though I suspect whatever you aver will be as tedious and off the point as your previous posts. Go ahead and prove me wrong. I say you can't.

You havent answered any of mine.

I dont really know what your point is. If its - Palestinian Arabs dont have the right to have a country. Its wrong. I strongly disagree.

You say "Why defend ..the .. Palestinian Arabs.. who are .. beholden to .. Islam, ..which desires the obliteration of the Jewish state, Israel,"

Because there maybe Palestinian Arabs who are not beholden to Islam (Christian Arabs for example) or even Muslim Arabs who desire peace.

What are to be condemned are:

The desire for the destruction of Israel.

Islam

Not peaceful Arabs, even if they be, horror of horrors, Muslim. I dont think that even the state of Israel takes such an extreme view as you, and some others here on Jihad watch, do.

Yep, Rich has been exposed.

Exposed? Why didnt you ask me my views to begin with - they have not changed. And I have given my reasons. If you want to change my views you have to address my reasons.

On the contrary it is you and others like you who have been exposed as close minded bigots. Just the same as the Islamic Jihadists but having a different philosophy to them. But like them not founded on reason and humanity but on a blind, close-minded belief, impervious to reason.

But that is not surprising - seeing how you were worsted in argument by danny and were totally unintelligible and unable to spot the flaw in his argument.

Exposed? Why didnt you ask me my views to begin with - they have not changed. And I have given my reasons. If you want to change my views you have to address my reasons.

On the contrary it is you and others like you who have been exposed as close minded bigots. Just the same as the Islamic Jihadists but having a different philosophy to them. But like them not founded on reason and humanity but on a blind, close-minded belief, impervious to reason.

But that is not surprising - seeing how you were worsted in argument by danny and were totally unintelligible and unable to spot the flaw in his argument.

There are too few Arab Christians to amount to anything (besides, the large majority of them have been totally dhimmified) and any Arab Muslims who really desire peace with Israel have demonstrated no capacity to wrest terror from the bulk of the Arab Muslim population who very much want no Israel at all. And you didn't address, as I knew you wouldn't, the fact that Israeli Arabs are freer than Arabs in any Arab nation. Really, you are becoming as predictable as you are tedious.

"Exposed? Why didnt you ask me my views to begin with - they have not changed. And I have given my reasons. If you want to change my views you have to address my reasons."

I don't know; seems like you were generally anti-Islam for a while -- now you are defending the "Palestinian people" who don't even exist except for propaganda purposes exploited by a genocidal movement of Muslims.

Rich,

Why do you always double post? A selfish road hog, evidently. What if everybody decided to selfishly double post every time, thinking "but gee, my posts are more important than anyone else's, so I have a right to more space and more attention."

You refer to confused ramblings? Yet you yourself admit you haven't read them!! Nevertheless, after admitting you haven't read them, you summarize them! And your "summary" is not just incorrect, but bizarrely unrelated to what I wrote. Clearly you are the one who is confused. Not to mention full of arrogant contempt, which often seems to issue from the smallest potatoes. And your attitude toward prayer is dogmatic, not scientific.

If I recall correctly, Pipes' position on the "Palestinian people" or nation is that they were an invented, historical fiction, based on Muslim Arab lies trumped up as part of the Muslim Arab effort to destroy Israel. But I think Pipes also says that even though the "Palestinian" nation or people was invented on the basis of lies, it now exists and on that basis has rights.

What the F@#$K is kosher Burag? Is it the Jewish equivalent of Haram? I'm not a f@#cking American. Try and explain what you want to say in English.
"Kosher" entered the English language a long time ago, you thumping idiot. If you don't know what a word means, don't be a lazy ass and insult those with a larger vocabulary than your provincial backwoods jargon. Ever heard of a google search?

I wrote:
...Pipes also says that even though the "Palestinian" nation or people was invented on the basis of lies, it now exists and on that basis has rights.

Badly written. It might make it sound as if Pipes says the "Palestinian" nation or people has rights only on the basis of lies. No. What Pipes says is that the "Palestinian" nation or people has rights based on the fact that that people now exists. Pipes says the Palestinian nation/people's existence was, at its beginnings two generations ago, a mere fiction based on lies and the intent to destroy Israel. But though the foundation was a lie, it became the de facto basis for the formation of a nation/people who by now have come to exist as a fact, and therefore have rights.

"seems like you were generally anti-Islam for a while -- now you are defending the "Palestinian people" who don't even exist except for propaganda purposes exploited by a genocidal movement of Muslims."

Yes Lemon lime, and the rest of you bigots here, you not worth any more of my time, so understand.

I like many others am against Islam. But not anti-Arab, Anti- African, Anti-every bloody thing but those small set of Americans who subscribe totally to the very small and blinkered view that you and your cabal have.

I said what I condemn are the desire for the destruction of Israel and Islam.

I do not condemn peaceful Arabs, be they Christian, secular or Muslim.

You and Wellington absolutely disagree with this. He has categorically stated that Christian Arabs are not to be supported because they are too few in number and too "dhimmified" to be worth any consideration, peaceful secular and Muslim Arabs have no capacity to wrest terror from the bulk of the Arab Muslim population, so they are not to be supported either.

Yes I believe the Palestinians have legitimate rights same as anyone else. I am not going to engage in your - they dont exist therefore they have no rights - semantic argument.

And Wellington "you didn't address, .. the fact that Israeli Arabs are freer than Arabs in any Arab nation."

Arab women certainly. In many respects Arab men yes. But not all. Arabs cannot for example live or buy land in Jewish settlements. They have to take permission to move from place to place. Jewish settlers get the bulk of the water resources of the area.

The reason why I havent addressed this is- it is irrelevant in their valid demand for an independent homeland.

The British and other colonial powers could have similarly argued hey you guys are better off under us than being independent, so no independence for you. If they want to be independent thats their right.

And I have finished here.

Sorry traeh I dont engage with idiots.

traeh wrote about Daniel Pipes:

"Pipes says the Palestinian nation/people's existence was, at its beginnings two generations ago, a mere fiction based on lies and the intent to destroy Israel. But though the foundation was a lie, it became the de facto basis for the formation of a nation/people who by now have come to exist as a fact, and therefore have rights. "

Ah, yes, Pipes the master of incoherency. There's much more where that came from, on many points relating to the general problem of Islam, which Lawrence Auster has capably analyzed, and which I took a stab at as well on my blog (the Hesperado -- those interested may Google the "Pipes Dream" + "hesperado").

Rich, in saying you won't engage, you just engaged, so you are a liar as well as a confused, thumping idiot (your label for another poster here). I'm glad if you won't engage further, though, because that means I can freely insult you as viciously and gratuitously as you insult others, which you do apparently because internet anonymity in your case frees you up to become the slimy creep you really are.

But to be a little more objective, I think you are a thumping idiot only in some respects. I agree with some of your points, and think you are sometimes bright, though not half so bright as you obviously think you are.

Perhaps you are one of the twits who when present in person are no doubt very "nice," but it's all phony, because your true self is revealed by what you do when you are internet anonymous and no one can see you -- and that is to become someone who manages to combine insufferable ignorance with insufferable arrogance and goes around gratuitously insulting those with whom he disagrees. Kierkegaard wrote about your behavior -- about what happens in anonymous crowds, where the absence of accountable individuals and of individuality produces grotesquely immoral brutality and irresponsibility.

Hey, look, Rich stopped his intentional double-posting of every comment! Until someone enlightened him, he had thought his posts were twice as important as anyone else's, and entitled to double-space! But we shouldn't be surprised about that, since he calls anyone who happens to differ with his ridiculous self-conceit a "thumping idiot."

Expansive of you, Rich, to think that the so-called Palestinian Arabs deserve their own country. Actually, I support your right to think this and would even argue that yours is an arguable point, but it's not a point I would argue for reasons I have already sufficiently related.

But here's where you reveal your deficienty in reasoning most especially: You simply can't tolerate those who disagree with you (all the while accusing others of this very fault). I mean if any people have demonstrated that they don't deserve their own country, who is a more worthy candidate here than Palestinian Arabs? Or are you so PC/MC that you think any ethnicity which demands their own country should have it regardless of their past behavior?

Let's see, you've called me an idiot as well as traeh, LemonLime, Buraq and, in general, have smeared most commenters here at JW. Now, you have asserted in your 4:56 A.M. post of today that you "don't engage with idiots." If only you would keep to this promise (I kind of doubt you will since you strike me as a person who issues idle threats), it would be a boon for so many of us "idiots" here at JW. So, by all means, take your extraordinary wisdom, your keen insight, elsewhere and leave us idiots to ourselves.

But, alas, I don't think this will happen. You will most probably be back with sundry ad hominem attacks aplenty, replete with all the tedious half-truths you are so very good at generating.

@Rich ...

Hey you're the "THUMPING IDIOT"!!! here ...so take your Palestinian poopaganda and beat it!!

Instead do something more constructive with your efforts and direct your complaints to the proper COMPLAINT DEPARTMENT: the ARABS!!! ..not Jihad Watch

The Arabs are the ones that have rejected their own people, so make yourself useful and take your complaints to the proper complaint department, you moron.

Oh and LemonLime, Wellington and traeh are all formidable and intelligent posters ...unlike you, who needs to get his facts straight; and then take aim at the heartless Arabs, and not at caring, bright and knowledgeable posters here. C'mon get busy bothering the Arabs with your *complaints*. And good luck with that, 'cause YOU! will need it ...

Hi, Champ. Well, I think it highly likely that good ole' Rich will go to his grave never figuring out the proper priorities, all the while thinking that he has. Though a long time teacher of history which I have been, and in theory never wanting to give up on someone, reality has told me that some people are simply forever invincibly ignorant----like Rich.

Hope you're doing well. Like me, I'm sure you're looking forward to the Biden/Ryan debate and the two others between Obama abd Romney. Not too many times in American history has a Presidential election been so important to the future of our great nation. Take good care, my friend.

Hi, Wellington ..yes, I'm really looking forward to the debate between Biden and Ryan; and imo Biden is a real liability for obama, so Ryan will probably be the clear winner like Romney was. I hope so. Take care, my dear friend :)

For what it's worth: over the past couple of months, other posters besides 'Rich' - including a number of respected 'regulars' - have ended up double and even triple posting, quite unintentionally. Sometimes when you hit 'publish' Typepad seems to 'hang up', or even times out.

The temptation is to try re-posting; I myself have learnt to a/ make a copy of anything I'm sending down the electronic rabbit-hole and b/ open a new window, and go to the same page, and see whether my apparently hung posting has, in fact, gone through.

That said: on the subject of the Poor Palestinians, I think 'Rich' hasn't educated himself sufficiently.

i would first of all advise him to read 'Cairo to Damascus', by John Roy Carlson, and get an idea of what was going down in 1947/1948.

Second, I would advise him to read, very slowly and carefully, Martha Gellhorn's 'The Arabs of Palestine', which appeared in the Atlantic Monthly in 1961. That is: *before* the Six Day War, when Israel was living within the borders to which people now wish to push her back; when Islamic Jordan ruled Judea and Samaria and all the parts of Jerusalem that are of ancient significance to Jews, and when Islamic Egypt ruled Gaza.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1969/12/the-arabs-of-palestine/4203/

Here is what she said at the end, after having spoken to many local Arabs in and around Israel, both Muslim and Christian (and the Arab Christians she spoke to, were people who openly and without any apparent shame or hesitation admired what Hitler had done to the Jews)

"Arabs gorge on hate, they roll in it, they breathe it.

"Jews top the hate list, but any foreigners are hateful enough.

"Arabs also hate each other, separately and en masse. Their politicians change the direction of their hate as they would change their shirts.

:Their press is vulgarly base with hate-filled cartoons; their reporting describes whatever hate is now uppermost and convenient. Their radio is a long scream of hate, a call to hate. They teach their children hate in school.

{Note: that was in 1961. To see the truth of it, a visit to the archives at MEMRI will show that what Gellhorn saw and said in 1961 is just as true of the situation today; and if one reads Carlson, one sees the same Islamically-driven hate pulsing through the words and deeds of the Muslims he had contact with, in 1947-48.


"They must love the taste of hate; it is their daily bread. And what good has it done them?

"THERE is no future in spending UN money to breed hate (but that is just what has been done - dda}.

" There is no future in nagging or bullying Israel to commit suicide by the admission of a fatal locust swarm of enemies.

"There is no future in Nasser's solution, the Holy War (that is, Jihad - dda} against Israel; and we had better make this very clear, very quickly.

"Long bleak memories will recall the Sudetendeutsch and Czechoslovakia. In a new setting, Palestinian (sic: local Arab Muslim - dda} refugees assume the role of the Sudetendeutsch. Israel becomes Czechoslovakia.

{Let 'Rich have a long, long think about this; especially in light of the fact that many and perhaps most of those Arabs or Arabised Islamised persons resident in 'Palestine' in 1947/ 48, had only entered it from a bunch of neighbouring Muslim countries, in the preceding two decades, or less - dda}.

"Propaganda prepares the war for liberation of "our brothers." Victory over a minor near enemy is planned as the essential first step on a long triumphant road of conquest.

"A thousand-year Muslim Reich, the African continent ruled by Egypt [and that dream, after the Ikhwan's rise in Egypt, is once more active; rivalled by the mad dreams of Shiite Islamic Persia - dda] may be a mad dream, but we have experience of mad dreams and mad dreamers. We cannot be too careful.

"The echo of Hitler's voice is heard again in the land, now speaking Arabic [and still speaking Arabic: Morsi and the rest of the Brotherhood; and people like Al Qaradawi; and then there are also those who express genocidal Islamic Jew-hatred, in Farsi...- dda}.

More, from Gellhorn:

"...the Palestinian refugees look, think, feel, and organize themselves socially as the Arabs of the "host countries" do. They speak the same language, they practice the same religion. The Christian minority would find fellow minority Christians in every Arab country except Lebanon, where they are on top. The Palestinian Arabs are not foreigners in the Arab world; they are members of their own family...".

"...the Arab governments insist that the Palestinian refugees are a political problem. Once a year, formally, they brandish these waiting lives at the UN Assembly. The rest of the year, with different degrees of intensity, depending on their domestic politics, they wield these waiting lives to stir up Arab hate at home.
The Arab governments say they will not accept the existence of the state of Israel, now or ever.
The logical conclusion is that, when ready, they intend to burst from their cold belligerent status into hot armed conflict and terminate Israel's existence..".


Besides Gellhorn's classic article (and I encourage Rich to look for all those instances where by fact-checking she catches her Muslim interlocutors in what she dubs 'madhattery') there is a brilliant little article that appeared recently, that I have linked on previous occasions, and that I will link again, to unconfuse those new to the subject who may have been confused by Rich's pronouncements.

http://www.meforum.org/3262/palestinian-history-nonsense

http://www.newenglishreview.org/blog_direct_link.cfm/blog_id/42534
Thursday, 14 June 2012
Alex Joffe On "Palestinian" Muslims And The Fabrication Of History

From The Middle East Quarterly:

http://www.meforum.org/3262/palestinian-history-nonsense
The Rhetoric of Nonsense
Fabricating Palestinian History
by Alexander H. Joffe 
Summer 2012, pp. 15-22


And there is also this, which companions Joffe's piece very well.

PHILIPPE ASSOULINE
http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/a-palestinese-lexicon/
A Palestinese Lexicon


And, finally, this cartoon (click on the link to see) which puts the thing in a nutshell, the thing that Rich is studiously ignoring or obfuscating, possibly because he has simply swallowed Arab/ Muslim madhattery and Bullshit:

http://drybonesblog.blogspot.com/2011/01/repackaging.html


REPACKAGING THE CONFLICT:

250 MILLION ARABS AGAINST LITTLE ISRAEL

NOW IT’S BIG BAD ISRAEL AGAINST THE PITIFUL PALESTINIANS…WITH ONE BILLION MOSLEMS ON THEIR SIDE.


And pursuant to my posting immediately above, a couple more items that have a bearing on the situation that Israel is in.

First: apostate from Islam, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, earlier this year addressed a conference in Israel.

An Israeli Jewish blogger summarises what she learned from Ayaan, and reports at least one thing that Ayaan said.

http://israelisoldiersmother.blogspot.com.au/2012/06/one-womans-voice-and-story.html


Monday, June 25, 2012
One Woman's Voice and Story

"...As a young Muslim child in Somalia, she learned three things that characterize that culture - the culture of Islam.

She came to the microphone after Dennis Ross, former US ambassador to Israel.

She spoke after two American Jews had been to the platform to offer their opinions and knowledge of the Israeli-Arab situation.

The night before, Henry Kissinger, Shimon Peres and Tony Blair all spoke about peace as if tomorrow it will come...if only we want it badly enough.

Quietly, Ayaan spoke and without ever mentioning their names, she made these men sound like naive fools.

She never said it, but it was there.

You cannot make peace with a society that does not want it; you cannot compromise with a people who refuse to accept that you even exist.

Dennis Ross suggested one of the steps that the Palestinians must take is to simply put Israel on their maps - even this, they will never do because this is about compromise and, according to Ayaan, an impossibility."...

"The Palestinians (that is, the local Arab Muslims; and beyond them, indeed, the rest of the Ummah - dda} will never compromise was her message.

"At one point, as someone on the panel was suggesting ways towards peace, Ayaan said something.

"I'm sure I heard it and perhaps can find it on a video somewhere to confirm.

'I believe she said, "Even if you give them Jerusalem," and then she repeated it, "even if you give them Jerusalem, there will be no peace." No compromise...".

In her quiet way, Ayaan spoke the truth that so many simply refuse to see.

It's right there in #2 - no compromise.

It's right there in the absolute authority - why young men move to suicide, why mothers accept this and fathers are proud of it. It's all in the Koran.

Even if you give up Jerusalem, even Jerusalem - there will be no peace.

If you know anything about Israel, about how much we love Jerusalem, you will understand her message.

She came to Jerusalem, recognizing it as our capital, recognizing our love of it.

Even if you surrender this city that you love, this place that is your heart - even then, they won't give you peace!".

Click on the link, read the rest of it. It's worth it. And it makes nonsense of the sorts of things that people like 'Rich' have said here, and elsewhere.


The only 'peace' that Israel will ever get, with the Ummah in its local manifestation - both within Israel, and next to Israel, and anywhere else, in the region, or in the world, is the temporary and unreliable 'peace' of a hudna, on the model of the legendary Treaty of Hudaybiyya. A peace that is a timeout within which the Muslims regroup and rearm, before going back in for the kill as soon as they deem the time is ripe. A peace that is a snare and a delusion.

For a discussion of which, see here.

http://www.newenglishreview.org/blog_direct_link.cfm/blog_id/44065
Tuesday, 25 September 2012
Fitzgerald: Waiting For Hudaibiyya

[Re-posted from June 8, 2008]


And anyone who clicks on that link and reads that article should bear grimly in mind that the model of the Treaty of Hudaybiyya is relevant not just for the Jewish state of Israel, but also for every other non-Muslim entity engaged in endless futile 'peace processing' with Muslims: for India (over Kashmir), for Thailand, for the Philippines (which has just signed an agreement with the Muslims of the southern islands, that I can guarantee will do them - that is, Filipino non-Muslims - no good at all, and is not to be relied upon); and that it is a warning for the newborn states of South Sudan and East Timor, so recently freed from being crushed by Muslim oppression, to keep their powder dry and to fortify their borders.

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