"Condemning violence but remaining shushed about its roots is not only hypocritical but pointless if you actually want to uproot the cause"

Last week I posted about an extraordinarily courageous column in Pakistan Today by Kunwar Khuldune Shahid, in which he dared, even in Pakistan, to note the Islamic roots of the Taliban's evils. Now he has written an equally courageous follow-up:

"Don’t blame the Taliban II," by Kunwar Khuldune Shahid in the Telegraph, October 19:

Let’s finally address the elephant in the room

Which ideology can possibly justify killing a 14-year-old school going kid? That is the question being asked by the ‘moderates’. The Taliban claim that their ideology does. The apologists of that ideology claim that the ‘monsters’ have got it all wrong, and continue to castigate the ‘beasts’, while ensuring that no fingers point towards the ideology. It’s about time we finally addressed the elephant in the room, instead of pointlessly condemning violent acts without discussing their roots.

The Taliban have defended the attack on Malala Yousafzai according to their scriptures and history. Of course if you’re looking for a command that orders the killing of every 14-year-old school going girl who is inspired by the leader of Dar-ul-Harb, you won’t find one, but what you will find are quite a few historical precedents. Like for instance the case of Asma bint Marwan, a poetess whose murder was sanctioned in 2 AH after she conspired against Islam and the Holy Prophet, as narrated by Ibn Ishaq and Ibn Sa’d. And then there are Ibn Khatal’s two slave girls Fartana and Qaribah, who used to sing songs against the Holy Prophet and were among the ten shortlisted to be executed at the Conquest of Makkah in 8 AH – one of them was killed, the second managed to escape (Ibn Sa’d, Tabaqat- Vol 2). Women were ordered to be killed for conspiring against the religion by their ideological predecessors, and so is it entirely the Taliban’s fault for taking cue and attempting to kill a girl who criticised their fundamentals; the fundamentals emanating from their ‘authentic’ religious scriptures?

Now to the question of Malala being a ‘kid’. According to Islamic teachings you’re an adult and responsible for your actions when you reach puberty – if a 9-year-old is considered old enough to get married, a 14-year-old should be old enough for being condemned for ‘conspiracy’. A plethora of Malalas under the pretext of threat to the religion bit the dust when the religion was expanding and therefore, if you’re defending Islam as the ultimate truth you can’t blame the Taliban for adopting violence as a means to assault the sceptics, unless you denounce the violence in 7th century as well and question the ideology.

I know what the apologists are saying at this very moment. When it comes to the off-putting facets of their ideology, everything:

1. Has a weak chain of narration

2. Is being taken out of context and is misinterpreted

3. Was the accepted norm of the time

Let’s address the first point.

Don’t you think it is rather hypocritical to claim that a particular verse from a particular compilation has a weak narration chain (even the two “most authentic” compilations Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim are marred by this allegation) and then go on to quote other verses from those same books because you find them “acceptable”? Do you not realise that strictly from a historian’s point of view once there is a consensus that any part of any book or compilation is not ‘authentic’ that basically throws the authenticity of the entire scripture out of the window? And if we’re playing the authenticity game, how many of the apologists realise that the first ‘authentic’ biography of the Holy Prophet was written in 828 AD by Abd-al-Malik bin Hisham – a good 196 years after his death? Again, strictly from a neutral historian’s viewpoint if you’re allowing for a gap of two centuries between the events actually taking place and their first reliable narration, that slashes a question mark over the accuracy of pretty much anything you care to conjure up from Islamic history – violent or otherwise.

Now to the second point.

Let’s take the “out of context” bit into context strictly from the point of view of the concept of a divine deity. Religion – any religion – is supposed to govern mankind till the end of time. Its holy scripture is supposed to be the word of the creator; an unalterable, preset text that is supposed to be the guideline, till the deity decides to call it a day. Does it seem reasonable that something that was supposed to guide man till the afterlife is left to human interpretation – especially when it deals with something as brutally sensitive as killing another human being – and is left so ambiguous such that one can’t even find five of its followers who would agree on every single one of its aspects? You have a gazillion interpretations originating from a scripture that is supposed to guide the average man, with an average mind who will not delve into 1500 years of history or go through infinite volumes of literature before interpreting when killing another human being is justified and when it isn’t.

If the propagators really wanted to ensure that everything remains contextual, how hard was it to drop a line saying it? (There is no command declaring that: hang on, you can kill the ‘non-believers’ now but make sure you don’t do so in 2012 – when humanity would be aware of the repugnance of the act) If the propagators really wanted to make sure that the peaceful verses – most from the time at Makkah – last forever, why would they introduce the ‘Al-Nasikh-Wal-Mansukh’ doctrine of abrogation and then ensure that the commands preaching violence chronologically followed the commands of peace? If the propagators really wanted to promote harmony, why would they use provocative language asking the ‘true believers’ to cut off the finger tips of non-believers for instance or claiming how they can never be friends with the Jews and Christians or else they would be one of them?

Moving on to the third point.

Don’t you think the propagators of the religion – those that were ostensibly fighting against the norms with the new ideology anyway– should have risen up against the repulsive practices? If you’re discouraging the possession of slaves and slave girls, why would you own any of them yourself? If you’re discouraging violence, why would you use it to propagate your ideology? And if you’re carving out a code for all the future generations to come why would you bow down to the norms of the time – any norm –at all?

Condemning violence but remaining shushed about its roots is not only hypocritical but pointless if you actually want to uproot the cause. 810 million people have been killed in the name of religion throughout human history, and lives are being taken every single day in our neck of the woods in the name of the ‘religion of peace’. Considering the response to last week’s piece there are many who are categorically against this ignorance – how long do all of you plan on remaining silent about it?

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This Paki sounds like Robert Spencer, which shows that Islamophobia could be contagious, attacking those who have some decency and a brain.

Okay, that's one Muslim who comes pretty nearly adequately close to reasonable sense about Islam. Now what about the other 1,299,000,000...?

We don't have all day, and we should not wait for one more plane, building, or human being to be destroyed by Muslims while we wait for them to evolve.

"..history clearly indicates that while the rank and file foot soldiers very often are the oppressed masses, it is a group of elites who initiate collective action, articulate claims, and therefore shape the trajectory of the rebellion. This essay explores the role of the elites in rebellion. To put the argument in unambiguous terms, it is not the masses but the elites that rebel; that rebellion comes from the masses is one of the most enduring myths among laypersons and academics alike. Yang Su
http://www.oycf.org/Perspectives2/2_110299/society_and_culture_B.htm

Very nice article. Just hope all those who will read it will be able to understand where is the author coming from and where he is heading to. Mo put down some norms such as issue of him many women man could have but he had more than others. There are many things in that line.
I really like the article
THANK GOD muslims are beginning to understand a bit. We can always stand start from one in order to count up (2), 3... etc.

This man Kunwar Khuldune Shahid is bang on target. I salute him. People like him who can think for themselves have to be promoted in Muslim countries.

Its not the wrong interpretation of the ideology that is to blame, its the ideology itself.

Muslims are taught to love their religion so whenever someone does something bad in its name they say "Thats not Islam" and so do westerners who know nothing about about Islam. George Bush, Hilary Clinton - millions of others. Thats the first thing they say when ever there is a terrorist attack.

This man Kunwar Khuldune Shahid is bang on target. I salute him. People like him who can think for themselves have to be promoted in Muslim countries.

Its not the wrong interpretation of the ideology that is to blame, its the ideology itself.

Muslims are taught to love their religion so whenever someone does something bad in its name they say "Thats not Islam" and so do westerners who know nothing about about Islam. George Bush, Hilary Clinton - millions of others. Thats the first thing they say when ever there is a terrorist attack.

That article in Pakistan Today has been removed. I wonder if anyone copied it or took screenshot of it?

You can blame the Taliban in Pakistan but you cant blame Islam.

The Dinosaur remains in the room but you have to pretend that either it doesn't exist or its benign.

That article in Pakistan Today has been removed. I wonder if anyone copied it or took screenshot of it?

You can blame the Taliban in Pakistan but you cant blame Islam.

The Dinosaur remains in the room but you have to pretend that either it doesn't exist or its benign.

Like the journalist, Syed Saleem Shahzad and Governor of Punjob, Salmaan Taseer, Kunwar Khuldune Shahid's days are numbered.

While it's a pretty impressive article, he's not really bang on target, IMO.

This, by RS, from last week:

""Kunwar Khuldune Shahid is quite wrong when he says: "Every single religion has a violent streak. Every single one of them orders violence and killing in one form or the other for the ‘non-believers'." Islam is unique in that regard."

And Mr. Shahid (such an unfortunate name, eh?) should have known that.

And this week:

"Which ideology can possibly justify killing a 14-year-old school going kid? That is the question being asked by the ‘moderates’. The Taliban claim that their ideology does."

Again, Mr. Shahid is wrong, for the Taliban claim that "ISLAM" justifys such killings.

Islam.

As with nearly every other issue, Islam is the exception. Why must every group/religion/culture follow the same axiomatic rules? Why must we assume that because other groups seem to follow a rule, then Islam must be the same?

I'm not going to bet the lives of my loved ones and fellow citizens on some abstract axiom. No. Each and every Muslim is suspect -- and therefore all Muslims are suspect, and should be considered, rationally, to be equally deadly.

Unless you have a magical key by which we can reliably and with absolute certainty tell when -- to pluck one example out of thousands one could adduce -- any given Muslim passing through an airport stile is not going to explode, then my caution is the only prudent way for us to proceed as we navigate the dangerous decades of the 21st century as Islam continues to metastasize and spiral out of control in the fanatically psychopathic revival by innumerable Muslims around the world of its original blueprint to actualize its diseased supremacism.

Yes PRCS, the two flaws you point out I overlooked on purpose for the sake of making my rhetorical point. And there are a few other unforgiveable flaws in his attempted argument. In fact, Shahid demonstrates a curious psychological/logical phenomenon: the more a Muslim approximates Reason with regard to analytical criticism of Islam, the more schizophrenic he must be (as a Muslim) -- given that Islam is irredeemably unreformable and thoroughly diseased as a complex unit of a thousand interlocking parts all geared to a series of functions united in a motive-&-goal that is evil, unjust and deadly to Mankind.

I.e., Shahid's "Own Private Islam" he has constructed as a holographic fantasy in his head that doesn't exist in reality has to acquire even more fantastic qualities given how, otherwise, he approximates Reason.

Shahid can't maintain this feat on a high-wire trapeze forever; at some point, his psyche is going to have to crack, and he's either going to have to do a Magdi Allam and jump ship altogether, or lapse back into angry and irrational Apologetics Mode (if he doesn't get lynched to death by non-Taliban Muslims in the meantime).

"Each and every Muslim is suspect"

I'm with you 100%.
All I'm saying is that this one muslim is an extremely precious one. For people like him, the elites, are the ones who will, very shortly, initiate the collective action that will lesd to the grat rebellion we're all waiting for.

He's a dead man walking. Wish we had more clear thinkers like him in the Muslim world.

"Kunwar Khuldune Shahid is quite wrong when he says: "Every single religion has a violent streak. Every single one of them orders violence and killing in one form or the other for the ‘non-believers'." Islam is unique in that regard."

Yes he is wrong there are religions like Jainism that forbids killing even of insects, Buddhism also methinks. He was perhaps talking about the "Abrahamic" religions.

Christians and Jews can find plenty in the scriptures to justify killing and violence. The massacres of Joshua are pretty revolting. He claimed Jehovah told him to do it.

The difference is Islam is set in stone, kind of. It has built in features to resist change. Such as ordering the murder of people like KK Shahid who see through its falsehood.

"And Mr. Shahid .. should have known that."

Why should he have known that? - its enough that he knows correctly about Islam.

""Which ideology can possibly justify killing a 14-year-old school going kid? That is the question being asked by the ‘moderates’. The Taliban claim that their ideology does."

Again, Mr. Shahid is wrong, for the Taliban claim that "ISLAM" justifys such killings."

You are quibbling over semantics. He says the Taliban claim that Islam does and he goes onto explain how it does.

This fellow LemonLime has such a deep seated hatred for Muslims (anyone born into a Muslim household) that he is not willing to give the slightest credit to people who have the intelligence to see through the ideology they were born into.

These people are clearly not Muslims even though they have have been born into a Muslim family and have a Muslim name.

"Kunwar Khuldune Shahid is quite wrong when he says: "Every single religion has a violent streak. Every single one of them orders violence and killing in one form or the other for the ‘non-believers'." Islam is unique in that regard."

Yes he is wrong there are religions like Jainism that forbids killing even of insects, Buddhism also methinks. He was perhaps talking about the "Abrahamic" religions.

Christians and Jews can find plenty in the scriptures to justify killing and violence. The massacres of Joshua are pretty revolting. He claimed Jehovah told him to do it.

The difference is Islam is set in stone, kind of. It has built in features to resist change. Such as ordering the murder of people like KK Shahid who see through its falsehood.

"And Mr. Shahid .. should have known that."

Why should he have known that? - its enough that he knows correctly about Islam.

""Which ideology can possibly justify killing a 14-year-old school going kid? That is the question being asked by the ‘moderates’. The Taliban claim that their ideology does."

Again, Mr. Shahid is wrong, for the Taliban claim that "ISLAM" justifys such killings."

You are quibbling over semantics. He says the Taliban claim that Islam does and he goes onto explain how it does.

This fellow LemonLime has such a deep seated hatred for Muslims (anyone born into a Muslim household) that he is not willing to give the slightest credit to people who have the intelligence to see through the ideology they were born into.

These people are clearly not Muslims even though they have have been born into a Muslim family and have a Muslim name.

Wowie!!! This guy is in Pakistan??????


Taking bets on how long he lasts before he gets killed...

I agree. The imams can't afford any sort of intelligent enlightenment to occur among any of the followers. Lord knows that there are millions of islamic idiots who will obediently assasinate these reasonable fellows.

Rich,

1. "He was perhaps talking about the "Abrahamic" religions."

Though he might have been, but as he said, "Every single religion has a violent streak. Every single one of them orders violence and killing in one form or the other for the ‘non-believers." Simply put, he was wrong.

2. "Why should he have known that?"

Because he has access to a computer and the Internet.

3. "Christians and Jews can find plenty in the scriptures to justify killing and violence. The massacres of Joshua are pretty revolting. He claimed Jehovah told him to do it."

I'm not a religious scholar, so don't be afraid to cite the spcific passages to which you refer and their relevance today.

4. "You are quibbling over semantics."

Specificity is sorely lacking in discussions about Islam, as its use helps prevent the ambiguity that dominates discussions about Islam and prevents so many "filthy kufar" from acknowledging the truth about that ideology. The Taliban's ideology is Islam, and their stated goal in Afghanistan is the establishment of a pure Islamic state. Specificity prevents semantics.

Just so you know, watch the progress bar before hitting the send button a second time when posting here (it's a little slow at times).

"This fellow LemonLime has such a deep seated hatred for Muslims (anyone born into a Muslim household) that he is not willing to give the slightest credit to people who have the intelligence to see through the ideology they were born into."

If Shahid did see through Islam, I'd give him the unstinting credit due him; but he obviously doesn't. He keeps slipping in little loopholes and artificial limitations to his own logic. It's highly likely he's one of these rare species of "Koranists" who thinks the "real Islam" is the one he has fabricated by going into gymnastic contortions about the Koran. That would be like creating a peaceful movement of Jew lovers out of Mein Kampf. It's not only ludicrous, it's dangerous, because it reinforces the idea that a harmless Islam is viable among a sufficient mass of Muslims around the world -- when we see no positive evidence for this (but we do see plenty of negative evidence, by the mass demonstrations calling for violence and hate, and by the alarming poll numbers of Muslim susrveyed who support death for gays and for blasphemy, etc., and by the metastasizing numbers of Muslims perpetrating and plotting violence in the name of Islam from the Philippines to Malaysia to Indonesia to India to China to Russia to Asia Minor to the Middle East to Africa to Germany to Italy to Spain to London to Holland to Scandinavia to England to the USA to Canada to even Argentina! I'm surprised Muslims haven't tried to blow up one of the two polar ice caps yet.).

As a curiosity or a strange thought experiment, Shahid could take his act on the road and do a magic act in Vegas or open for the Bearded Lady and the Sword Swallower at the circus. But he's not to be taken seriously as a representative of a viably modernized, civilized Islam.

Or he could live up to his name, and become a paradoxical "martyr" by self-imploding as a Muslim, as it were, take off that ridiculous life-choking costume that grows like a cancerous skin, and join the rest of humanity as we slog through life trying to make the best of it without making it worse with a fanatically hellish culture of violence and hatred and paranoia.

One may disagree with particulars about what Kunwar Khuldune Shahid says, but his attack on "the apologists of that ideology" [Political/Religious Islam] is on the mark. He uses historical precedents from the time of Muhammad to make his point. For an in-depth reading of Muhammad's war with the Jews from 622-628 A.D.,check out the following link:


http://www.amazon.com/Muhammad-Birth-Islamic-Supremacism-622-628/dp/1937668975/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1350764023&sr=8-1&keywords=muhammad+hayden

2. "Why should he have known that?"

PRCS: Because he has access to a computer and the Internet.

3. "Christians and Jews can find plenty in the scriptures to justify killing and violence. The massacres of Joshua are pretty revolting. He claimed Jehovah told him to do it."

PRCS: "I'm not a religious scholar, so don't be afraid to cite the spcific passages to which you refer and their relevance today."

So do you have access to a computer and the Internet. This man has studied his own religion and seen through it. He has no need or desire to equally study other religions.

But to help you out

Deuteronomy 2:

"30 But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him: for the Lord thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliver him into thy hand, as appeareth this day.

31 And the Lord said unto me, Behold, I have begun to give Sihon and his land before thee: begin to possess, that thou mayest inherit his land.

32 Then Sihon came out against us, he and all his people, to fight at Jahaz.

33 And the Lord our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people.

34 And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain:"

Deuteronomy 20:

16 But of the cities of these people, which the Lord thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:

17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee:

From the time of the Genesis, this Jehovah was sorry that he created Man then decided the solution was the solution lay in more violence: He decided to drown the entire human race except for Noah, his three sons and their four wives.

Time and again you can read in the Bible, Jehovah first "hardening the hearts" of a people and then giving permission to kill and murder, if not doing the killing and murdering himself. During Moses's time, this Jehovah "hardened the hearts" of Pharoah, then killed their first born, sent plagues to torment the whole population.

After wandering in the desert for four decades, God ordered the Hebrews to invade the "promised land" and totally exterminate "the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites and the Jebusites" leaving "alive nothing that breathes."

They were to fight and kill the soldiers of these groups, and then murder the defenceless elderly, women, youths, children, infants, and newborns. The book of Joshua records the progress of the genocide, city by city.

You have access to a computer and the Internet, do your own research.

I can do without this murderous Allah AND Jehovah, thank you very much.

PS I never hit the send button a second time. It posts twice in my case almost all the time. It maybe because of where I am.

2. "Why should he have known that?"

PRCS: Because he has access to a computer and the Internet.

3. "Christians and Jews can find plenty in the scriptures to justify killing and violence. The massacres of Joshua are pretty revolting. He claimed Jehovah told him to do it."

PRCS: "I'm not a religious scholar, so don't be afraid to cite the spcific passages to which you refer and their relevance today."

So do you have access to a computer and the Internet. This man has studied his own religion and seen through it. He has no need or desire to equally study other religions.

But to help you out

Deuteronomy 2:

"30 But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him: for the Lord thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliver him into thy hand, as appeareth this day.

31 And the Lord said unto me, Behold, I have begun to give Sihon and his land before thee: begin to possess, that thou mayest inherit his land.

32 Then Sihon came out against us, he and all his people, to fight at Jahaz.

33 And the Lord our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people.

34 And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain:"

Deuteronomy 20:

16 But of the cities of these people, which the Lord thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:

17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee:

From the time of the Genesis, this Jehovah was sorry that he created Man then decided the solution was the solution lay in more violence: He decided to drown the entire human race except for Noah, his three sons and their four wives.

Time and again you can read in the Bible, Jehovah first "hardening the hearts" of a people and then giving permission to kill and murder, if not doing the killing and murdering himself. During Moses's time, this Jehovah "hardened the hearts" of Pharoah, then killed their first born, sent plagues to torment the whole population.

After wandering in the desert for four decades, God ordered the Hebrews to invade the "promised land" and totally exterminate "the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites and the Jebusites" leaving "alive nothing that breathes."

They were to fight and kill the soldiers of these groups, and then murder the defenceless elderly, women, youths, children, infants, and newborns. The book of Joshua records the progress of the genocide, city by city.

You have access to a computer and the Internet, do your own research.

I can do without this murderous Allah AND Jehovah, thank you very much.

PS I never hit the send button a second time. It posts twice in my case almost all the time. It maybe because of where I am.

Actually, it occurs to me to wonder whether this guy is saying 'the ideology' in order to render 'the deen', that is...ISLAM.

And the arguments he uses to dispose of the usual apologist claims, which claims he enumerates as follows -

"When it comes to the off-putting facets of their ideology, everything:

1. Has a weak chain of narration

2. Is being taken out of context and is misinterpreted

3. Was the accepted norm of the time" - are perfectly sound; they might have come straight out of the comments forum here at jihadwatch.

Who knows, maybe he's been lurking here from time to time and listening in..I'm told we get a fair few visitors from Pakistan, though they usually don't post. Maybe he's been lurking, too, at Ali Sina's place, or at some of the other sites where Islam and its doings are truthfully and mercilessly discussed.

So, just in case he has noticed that his article has been re-posted here...

Kunwar Khuldune Shahid: if you are out there, if you are reading this:

your next step, if you are brave enough, is to follow Ayaan Hirsi Ali, or Ibn Warraq, or Magdi Cristiano Allam, *out* of Islam altogether. 'Former Muslims United' could give you some advice and counsel.

Make the decision - "I am no longer a Muslim' - in your heart, first; then get the hell out of Pakistan; then, publicly declare your apostasy, but make sure you've acquired a great big dog and a double-barrelled shotgun before you do, in case the sharia-enforcers come after you. And go to a good - non-Muslim - psychologist/ counsellor, preferably someone who specialises in helping people who have escaped from cults and/ or from abusive situaitons, because...you will have a *lot* of psychological baggage to get rid of.


"If Shahid did see through Islam, I'd give him the unstinting credit due him; but he obviously doesn't. He keeps slipping in little loopholes and artificial limitations to his own logic. It's highly likely he's one of these rare species of "Koranists" who thinks the "real Islam" is the one he has fabricated by going into gymnastic contortions about the Koran."

These "little loopholes and artificial limitations to his own logic" are a figment of your own imagination as is your conjecture that he retains any beliefs of any "real Islam" when he has argued so persuasively against such a notion.

"If Shahid did see through Islam, I'd give him the unstinting credit due him; but he obviously doesn't. He keeps slipping in little loopholes and artificial limitations to his own logic. It's highly likely he's one of these rare species of "Koranists" who thinks the "real Islam" is the one he has fabricated by going into gymnastic contortions about the Koran."

These "little loopholes and artificial limitations to his own logic" are a figment of your own imagination as is your conjecture that he retains any beliefs of any "real Islam" when he has argued so persuasively against such a notion.

Things are starting to rock and roll.

this guy seems reasonable to a large extent,going by his words.

'By that logic, we should first of all issue a formal apology to the Vatican for the churches that we burnt in the name of love in Mardan and Karachi. I mean who are we to launch vitriolic criticism against the US constitution, do we not realize that we live in a country whose constitution declares that denigration of the “glory of Islam” is blasphemous, while burning churches is not?'

http://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/2012/09/28/comment/columns/lets-grow-up/

2. "Why should he have known that?"

PRCS: Because he has access to a computer and the Internet.

"He has no need or desire to equally study other religions."

He personally declared, without equivocation, "Every single religion has a violent streak. Every single one of them orders violence and killing in one form or the other for the ‘non-believers'."

He needed to know what he was talking about before posting. With access to a computer and the Internet he should have looked that up and therefore, HE SHOULD HAVE KNOWN WHAT HE WAS SAYING WAS FALSE.

YOUR excuse for his failure is just that.

3. "Christians and Jews can find plenty in the scriptures to justify killing and violence.

NO! "Christians and Jews COULD find plenty in the scriptures to justify killing and violence. PAST TENSE.

So let me help you out. I ASKED YOU FOR THEIR RELEVANCE TODAY!

"You have access to a computer and the Internet, do your own research."

Isn't that what YOU should be doing?

"I ASKED YOU FOR THEIR RELEVANCE TODAY!"

Perfectly simple - This Jehovah is a violent, jealous God, he is a God that orders to kill on a whim, he is the "same yesterday, today and tomorrow".

Those allowances to kill are valid today for anyone who wants to believe in the Bible. Religious people are dangerous people. George Bush believed that God told him to invade Iraq. God tells different people different things. He tells the Iranian Mullahs and other Muslims that Israel must be wiped off the map.

Even the New Testament - Jesus was a reformer, but rather than clearly say the old laws of Moses were no longer applicable added "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill."

He retains the idea of Hellfire. Violence of men is replaced by fear and violence of God. We should fear God who is willing and able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Most people will burn in hell.

We can follow the Golden rule and such of the moral teachings as are reasonable to us, without believing in the dogma.

Thanks for those links.

Despite my concerns and reservations, his articles are a breath of fresh air.

The West's political class (and much of MSM) often defers to some Muslim
(often someone with Muslim Brotherhood political tendencies) to dictate to us, and mislead us in the West about the nature of Islam.

Will the West's political class now defer to the forthright analysis of someone like Kunwar Khuldune Shahid instead? If not, why not?

Better still, defer to 'Jihadwatch'.

From above...Those allowances to kill are valid today for anyone who wants to believe in the Bible.

I have had many discussions about. 'Thou shall not kill', versus, 'Thou shall not murder'...The first is a flat out statement, with no qualifiers, it does not say you can kill this or that for this reason or that reason...The second, claimed to be older, murder, leaves the door wide open for abuse of killing power...This suits Islam, all governments, and promotes a lower state of human mentality...While jihadists and governments kill lots of people, they never 'murder' anyone...but they, or their agents, are killers just the same...Everyone has a choice to participate in this, or not participate...How much blood we have on our hands is up to us...

"Those allowances to kill ..."

"Allowance"? ...like payment, grant, pocket money...stipend?

Which one of these possible meaning of "allowance" do you have in mind?
Please explain.

Christianity has no valid license to kill unlike Islam has.

Please read these: thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/Bible-Quran-Violence.htm and answering-islam.org/Terrorism/violence.html

Jesus made it clear that him kingdom is not of this world and shall not be defended using violence.

The Bible is mostly descriptive, not prescriptive.

I actually wonder if he is actually a muslim. If he is then he will surely be condemned to death as an "apostate" Allah is most merciful (sarc)

"Allowance"? ...like payment, grant, pocket money...stipend?

Which one of these possible meaning of "allowance" do you have in mind?

None of the above.

Allowance - "The act of allowing" (permitting).

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/allowance

"Allowance"? ...like payment, grant, pocket money...stipend?

Which one of these possible meaning of "allowance" do you have in mind?

None of the above.

Allowance - "The act of allowing" (permitting).

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/allowance

Indeed.
I stand corrected.

I didn't know you were a pacifist. So it was wrong for us to fight and kill to stop Hitler, Mussolini and Hirohito, eh?

It's official (if it wasn't clear before): Rich is an anti-Western apologist (at best). His equivalencist attempt at arguing that Christians are equally as dangerous as Muslims (if only allowing for the fudge factor of "potentially") by adducing one sound bite from Bush about his invasion of Iraq -- an invasion that Clinton, Gore and the majority of Democrats had been urging for years -- is not merely ludicrous, it's also straight out of the Leftist playbook.

I doubt Rich ever answered the lengthy but cogently pertinent challenge posted by "dumbledoresarmy" a couple of months ago, after he had dominated a thread with his malarkey, and she ("dumbledoresarmy") then posted a devastating critique with questions for Rich. I kept checking that thread for days, wondering if Rich would show up -- but after dominating that thread for days, he suddenly disappeared. Then he wasn't seen in any comments threads for a few days. Then he started to slink back. Now he thinks he can get away with his pretense at being one of us. No siree. Not until he adequately answers the comment of "dumbledoresarmy".

I haven't been able to find that comment, though I found a similarly unanswered one here --

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2011/09/left-wing-commentator-annoyed-that-al-awlaki-didnt-get-due-process.html#comment-825287

No doubt dumbledoresarmy herself has a record of that thread; I hope she reads this and can provide the link.

This happens often, where an Apologist (whether Muslim or Leftist) dominates a thread, then vanishes before answering the most cogent challenge. Another example was the infamous "Peter", and here is the last post on that long thread, again by "dumbledoresarmy" --

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/09/muslim-rioting-violence-in-israel-gaza-libya-egypt-yemen-sudan-tunisia-morocco-iraq-iran-and-kashmir.html#comment-904629

-- and, as with "Rich", left unanswered, in the hopes that the thread would fall into the abyss of Archives and no one would notice.

I just spent a solid 30 minutes scouring through the September archives for that long thread where dumbledoresarmy posted a comment massively refuting "Rich" and his position on the "Palestinians" vis-a-vis (not to mention vs.) the Israelis and, more accurately, the Jews. Unfortunately, I failed to find it.

Since I only checked threads that had 50 or more comments (as I recall it was an unusually long thread), I must have missed it -- or it was in August. I doubt it was in October.

"Now he thinks he can get away with his pretense at being one of us."

Being one of you? No siree Lemonlime. The last thing on Earth I desire is to be anything like you.

Do some research on my comments on you. They have been far from flattering. You are the maintainer of the dogma of the far right, devoid of reason, or tolerance for anyone whose opinions differ from yours. Your main thrust in attack is to question the posters handle or and the fact that they may not have posted as long and illustriously you.

Very little separates you and the Islamists. You are equally intolerant and devoid of reason.

"Now he thinks he can get away with his pretense at being one of us."

Being one of you? No siree Lemonlime. The last thing on Earth I desire is to be anything like you.

Do some research on my comments on you. They have been far from flattering. You are the maintainer of the dogma of the far right, devoid of reason, or tolerance for anyone whose opinions differ from yours. Your main thrust in attack is to question the posters handle or and the fact that they may not have posted as long and illustriously you.

Very little separates you and the Islamists. You are equally intolerant and devoid of reason.

As all religious scriptures are man-made constructs, scriptural "allowances" to kill other human beings were crafted by mere mortal men.

And as the Old Testament was concocted roughly between 15 and 4 centuries, BC:

It's "allowances to kill" were applicable to that time, and to specific people in a small part of the world who had no idea that the earth is round.

And it does seem that "God's" commands didn't carry much sway with most of the world's population from that tiem: indeed, his decision to drown the entire human race except for Noah, his three sons and their four wives was an abject failure, when you consider that the vast, vast majority of the world's population at the time had never heard of this "Jehova" and had not even gotten wet.

"...cite the spcific passages to which you refer and their relevance today."

The truth, Rich, is that none of the passages you cited has any relevance to modernity.

None.

I consider this the most salient passage of all:

Don’t you think the propagators of the religion – those that were ostensibly fighting against the norms with the new ideology anyway– should have risen up against the repulsive practices? If you’re discouraging the possession of slaves and slave girls, why would you own any of them yourself? If you’re discouraging violence, why would you use it to propagate your ideology? And if you’re carving out a code for all the future generations to come why would you bow down to the norms of the time – any norm –at all?
...............................

Certainly, Jesus—and no, I'm *not* referring to the ugly Muslim "Isa"—didn't own slaves, though he lived in a time of slavery. Instead, he ministered to slaves. He didn't use violence, though he lived in a violent age.

Even more to the point, perhaps, for our purposes is that the most devout Muslims *today* are hardly peaceful egalitarians—but instead, are mostly oppressive, violent Islamic supremacists—exactly on the "eternal" model of the baleful "Prophet".

Kudos to Kunwar Khuldune Shahid. That a man named "Shahid" can come to such commonsense "Islamophobic" conclusions gives me some hope.

While I agree with some of the posters above that Shahid's comments fall short in several significant ways, this is still refreshing stuff.

In fact, I would be happy if more pundits in the West were as clear-eyed. That this comes out of Dar-al-Islam is astonishing.

I just pray he is safe in his native Pakistan. Telling such "inconvenient truths" is something the pious—and frequently deadly—Ummah does not look fondly upon.

The link to Pakistan Today which Spencer gave is now broken. It takes you to the paper, all right, but it says "Sorry! Page could not be found"

Spencer's previous link, of Shahid's article last week, is also broken.

Perhaps Pakistan Today has seen fit to eliminate these two articles by Shahid.

The most recent one I can find by him there is the considerably less daring "Let's Grow Up" article dated September 28:

http://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/2012/09/28/comment/columns/lets-grow-up/

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