Ex-Muslim in Muslim country tells family about her apostasy: "I am actually happy"

Thank you for going through the trouble of finding out and posting the info.
It supports very well the suspicion I have had about the truth of the story told by "Liberated One". I don't know her (or his) motives for publishing the spoof, but it sounded phoney from the very start.

Yes, the easy availability of liquor is un-Islamic...

Diana West has compelling evidence of the Libyan jihadists recruiting bloodthirsty fanatics from among Muslims who don't see much wrong with certain haram activities, yet who have found that "going on jihad" is an important obligation.

West first quotes from the lately assassinated Ambassador Stevens assessing the problem of "radicalism" in Libya, and particularly the city of Derna (where per capita the most suicide bombers were recruited to mass murder our soldiers in Iraq and probably also Shia Muslims):

A heavy influx of Arabic-language satellite television ... also fostered a hard view of the world. ... Not everyone liked the "bearded ones" (a reference to conservative imams) or their message, [Redacted] said, but the duty of a Muslim in general -- and a son of Derna in particular -- was to resist occupation of Muslim lands through jihad. "It's jihad -- it's our duty, and you're talking about people who don't have much else to be proud of." Derna's residents might take issue with attempts to ban smoking or restrict social activities, but there was consensus on "basic issues" like jihad.

Then West writes:

This is a striking comment, and in keeping with other cable reports attesting to both the normalcy and acceptance of jihad among the population at large. Interestingly enough, it is only the manners and mores of sharia -- smoking bans, restricted social activities -- that are at all controversial in this culture. Jihad, then, becomes a defining attribute, and, a deal-breaker for making common cause...

http://www.dianawest.net/Home/tabid/36/EntryId/2297/The-Jihad-and-Christopher-Stevens-Pt-3.aspx

I have no doubt this leniency haram-wise applies also to drinking, while the fanaticism halal-wards also applies to the deadly serious issue of "family honor" as much as to jihad.

Why is it that we non-Muslims know more about Islam than a person who was born and raised in a Muslim country, surrounded by Muslims, in a Muslim family -- and who is intelligent to boot?

Well, I can follow your reasoning, LL.
But why do you think that concluding a scam would involve a higher leap to conclusion than assuming a delusion?

After all, scam is far from an unusual thing on blogs, including JW.
Additionally, information provided by Gunung Semery related to cases of "honour" killing in the UAE squarely contradicts the Liberated's assertion that the phenomenon doesn't exist there. I find it hard to believe the Liberated would be ignorant of it. Well, such a chance does exist, but is highly improbable. Highly enough for the Occam's Razor principle to compel one to assume scam, rather than delusion.
Of course I could be wrong - there is no way to tell.
Perhaps we should ask the Liberated :-))

In Chicago for example (where I live), there are shootings and killings in the South side and the West side, and such things are are only passively reported in the news.

Your argument misses the mark.
Whether or not the news of killings in Chicago are reported, "passively reported", or not reported at all, everybody knows that they are happening. They are a part of the Chicago's reality and one would be rather incredulous, had the news reported that the killings have suddenly stopped.

You don't really believe there is a single moslem country whose people need to read the news to know of the occurrences of honour killing. Indeed the rarer are such occurrences the more sensational and therefore more likely to be spread through all possible channels.

The moslem population in the US is, I think, about 1.5 percent. I think it would take a very ignorant American who would claim he has never heard of honour killings in the US. Liberated One is certainly not that type of ignorant.

"I notice that each posting shows 'development', a bit like a narrative in a novel."

That is precisely what caught my attention. As if the author is a budding writer trying his style and composition skills. Too sleek...

"But why do you think that concluding a scam would involve a higher leap to conclusion than assuming a delusion?"

A scam would involve more serious things like 1) not only lying on the part of LO, but a sustained orchestrated deception spanning months and a complex tissue of lies; and 2) either a deception of Spencer and Ali Sina (both of whom vetted her and stand by her legitimacy), or a deception by them.

The reasonable principle is that if a hypothesis involves graver (and/or more outlandish) charges (such as the above), then the standard of proof should be higher.

Ockham's razor comes in, insofar as all the discrepancies can be explained by LO suffering from that peculiar form of schizophrenia which afflicts both islamochristians and many ex-Muslims (or Muslims-in-transition to being apostates), by which they continue to defend Islam and develop a form of psychotic denial about what they know damn well to be true -- viz., the deadly and grotesque evils of Muslims.

A scam would involve more serious things like 1) not only lying on the part of LO, but a sustained orchestrated deception spanning months and a complex tissue of lies; and 2) either a deception of Spencer and Ali Sina (both of whom vetted her and stand by her legitimacy), or a deception by them.

I can't see how a couple anonymous entries in a blog would necessitate a "...sustained orchestrated deception spanning months...".

this is an elaborate piece of trolling to say the least. I am not sure why, but my best guess is for her to gauge this site and the people who blog on this site and get information. The information she is getting here is extremely important. it is not like she is trying to find our identity or where we are etc... she is/has found out how we think, what we like/dislike where is a split or division here amongst us who here is more inclined to be fooled and the psyche of our people here. While once I asked for her email I opted not to follow up and read her blogs carefully. Nothing is she saying here is more far that truth. This post here completely exposed her.
Libertad One: You have taken people here for granted and rendered them as fools and idiots. However you are the one who fooled your self. UAE is a shithole but a modern shithole where women(local) are treated like shit, where men have the final say so and where women and minorities are treated like second hand citizens and persecuted. As for your family being from Pakistan, with no money all this tells me that they were guest workers to be there doing menial work that Arabs do not do, which also means they are not educated to say the least and by telling them that you came out and everything is happily ever after with them is a blatant lie. You are trying to pass a shithole and an Islamic state as one that is progressive is not going to fly here. You are the most dangerous of all Jihadists. Stealth Jihadists that is like Reza Aslan and CAIR and I will not be surprised if you worked for one of them. Your portrait of UAE as westernized state shows your true color. Now pack up your bag. you are one the wrong site.
M

"I can't see how a couple anonymous entries in a blog would necessitate a "...sustained orchestrated deception spanning months...".

a) you didn't address my #2

b) it's more than a couple of entries, and all the entries to date involve lots of rich complicated content, which if not true, would be rich and complicated fabrication which = a sustained orchestrated deception.

Really, why am I repeating myself?

LL:

"b) it's more than a couple of entries, and all the entries to date involve lots of rich complicated content, which if not true, would be rich and complicated fabrication which = a sustained orchestrated deception.

Really, why am I repeating myself?"
_________________________________

I'm with you and Miriam on this. Her post is full of problems. I'm very suspicious.

Perhaps Liberated could tell me why my BS Meter is approaching 8.

"...either a deception of Spencer and Ali Sina (both of whom vetted her and stand by her legitimacy)"

With all respect to R. Spencer and Ali Sina they are only human and so is their vetting. It would not be the first time that even a most thorough vetting would be wrong. By that I am not trying to say that their vetting WAS actually deficient. But it very well could have been.

Otherwise, the more I try to read her posts the more convinced I am she is a phoney. I just can't help it that she sounds utterly false to me.

"Really, why am I repeating myself?"

Really, why?

Gunung Semeru wrote:

I do not believe a word of what she says...
.......................

I realize that there are solid, respected posters here who have some doubts regarding the Liberated One's identity.

But keep in mind that Gunung Semeru—who has styled his username after a location in Muslim Indonesia—is from his dodgy posting history almost certainly a Muslim troll.

I would *not* take his planting doubts here at face value *at all*.

true, gravenimage; I've never seen that commenter before, and suddenly he surfaces just for this one particular subtopic? Still, the content of what he's saying should be addressed by LO.

LL

he suddenly appeared in the thread attached to one of the recent stories on the arrest and imprisonment of EDL leader 'Tommy Robinson'.

Graven Image.

But keep in mind that Gunung Semeru—who has styled his username after a location in Muslim Indonesia—is from his dodgy posting history almost certainly a Muslim troll.

………………..

Graven Image fails to point out that Gunung Semeru is situated in the Bromo-Tengger-Semeru national park, home to the descendants of the Majapahit princes. the Tenggerese

The Tenggerese generally profess Hinduism as their religion, although they have incorporated many Buddhist and Animist elements. Like the Balinese, they worship Ida Sang Hyang Widi Wasa (Roughly "Big Almighty Lord") for blessings in addition to other Hindu and Buddhist gods that include the Tri Murti, namely Shiva, Brahma, Vishnu and Buddha.

Dodgy postings, how can telling the truth about EDL,s Tommy Robinson indicate I am a muslim troll.

If my posting were dodgy, you would have no problem refuting them, which you cannot so you resort to trying to label me a muslim troll.

Back to topic,

Look at LO,s profile, and see the date she registered, and compare to the date of the first post, seems she was liberated 10 months before leaving islam

I am sure most of you must have guessed that I live in UAE, not Saudi or Kuwait or Iran, or worse still, Afghanistan and Pakistan. This country is too westernised and far too eager to be in the good books of dear old uncle Sam.

I really think it's time for JW to stop publishing her stupid blog entries. People who are actually interested can go there to read her latest experiments in stupidity.

You are taking very flimsy and ambiguous examples, and in making your case you are stretching them way beyond what is warranted.

It's more likely that the Liberated One was simply mistaken in stating that there were no instances of honour killings in the UAE. It is not uncommon for people to speak from experience and unintentionally overstate matters, or to be imprecise, or to not bother with adding qualifiers like "to the best of my knowledge [there have been no honour killings]".

It certainly doesn't follow from anything you've claimed that she was lying.

You wrote: "Her English is perfect,"

No it isn't. If you read the history of Liberated's blog, you will see examples indicative of someone who is using English as a second language, where some commenters have suggested better word choices, etc., to her.

"...which can be expected as English is one of the official languages of Pakistan. Where she slips up she uses the America Mom for mother, instead of English Mum
Mom and mommy are used in the United States, Canada, South Africa, Philippines, and India.
Mum and mummy are used in the United Kingdom, Canada, Singapore, Australia, New Zealand, India, Pakistan, Hong Kong and Ireland."

I don't think you've established that a genuine Liberated One/ Shakila ought to be using one spelling or the other of Mom.

Let's have a look at your logic. Are we to take from this then that you've surveyed all of these countries for language usage in regards to this particular word spelling and, following your logic, you are a liar if what you are saying turns out to be false in regards to any instance?

I'm Canadian and I can tell you based on my experience (I'm in my mid-forties, am well-educated, and I've lived here all my life), Canadians don't use "Mum/Mummy/mum/mummy". They use Mom/mom/mommy/Mommy. There might be rare instances where a Canadian who was raised in the U.K. and who now lives in Canada uses "mum/mummy", or when a Canadian writing about a British person (or attempting to write like one) uses it, or when someone tries it out just for the heck of it, but it's misleading to suggest that it is used in Canada.

(And following your logic, if I'm wrong about this, then I'm lying about living in Canada?!)

Infidel,

You wrote: "I really think it's time for JW to stop publishing her stupid blog entries. People who are actually interested can go there to read her latest experiments in stupidity."

I disagree. I think the inclusion of Liberated's posts is a good addition to JW. I think this will become clearer as her circumstances change, hopefully for the better, when eventually she can be on safer ground.

As for Liberated's knowledge of the Islam problem in all its aspects, I think we have to keep in mind that she has only been an apostate for about a year or so, and may not be focusing on researching the problems in Islam to the same extent as long-time Jihad-watch readers such as us. One person's lived experience is not the same as a comprehensive body of knowledge obtained over several years. When mistakes happen they can be corrected and people can be educated. There is no need to throw out the baby with the bathwater here.

Yes.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/travel/news/queensland-woman-tells-of-her-jail-hell-in-united-arab-emirates/story-e6freqwo-1226028684306
"A QUEENSLAND woman spent eight months in a United Arab Emirates jail for adultery after complaining to police about being drugged and raped by co-workers."

"Ms Gali said she was never warned by her UAE employers that she could be charged with adultery and face prison if she complained of being raped, without having four adult male Muslim witnesses."

"I cannot envision a muslima sitting at a bar [in a dubious place like Dubai et Allah] beside her Christian boyfriend sipping a mint julep unless they were in a Western country."

Well, it's probably not impossible for that to take place -- but I'd describe such an activity as approximately analogous to the fact that you can put one bullet in the chamber of a revolver, spin the chamber so you don't know where the bullet is anymore, and pull the trigger with the gun to your head and not die -- several times, possibly.

Gunung Semeruy wrote:

If my posting were dodgy, you would have no problem refuting them, which you cannot so you resort to trying to label me a muslim troll.
...............................

So far, the *only* thing you have done here is undermine the reputations of Anti-Jihadists.

Certainly, Anti-Jihadists can—and do—question and even criticize each other.

But so far as I have seen, that is *all* you have done here. Unless I see some evidence to imply that you have any problem at all with violent Jihad—and any problem with our simply rolling over in the face of it—then my estimation of you will not change.

Rich says:

"Lemonlime and the rest of you bitter and cynical old codgers here - They jest at scars that never felt a wound.

Judge not lest ye be judged."
___________________________

But you just judged LL and "the rest of us bitter, old, cynical codgers"!

Firstly, how old is "old"?

Secondly, what is a "codger"? Could you please define it, so that I may put more stock in your judgement of us?

Thirdly, cynicism is a fine art, verging on farce, so please be more exact!

Fourthly, no-one here, including M and LL are not "bitter" - (they may be "old" and a MALE (("codger"))- but they are genuinely attempting to decipher what they and I find to be a highly disturbing new post from someone who most of us have supported unconditionally -for months, and for the reason (I think) that Spencer assured us that he vetted her.

That is all irrelevant to cynicism, bitterness and age, however.
________________

Try again, Rich...

LL: "...but I'd describe such an activity as approximately analogous to the fact that you can put one bullet in the chamber of a revolver, spin the chamber so you don't know where the bullet is anymore, and pull the trigger with the gun to your head and not die -- several times, possibly."
_________________________

Well, it is approximately analogous, but I would add another approximately analogous scenario:

Infidel: "Go ahead! Hand me that Islamic gun - I'm not afraid, because I already know that you ginned-up the cylinders, so I secretly put TWO bullets in, and now, since I didn't die when I just pulled the trigger - it's your turn, biyatch!"

Muslim Holding Gun: "Allahu Akbar, then, you stinking Infidel!"

Click.

Bang.

"...no-one here, including M and LL are not 'bitter'... = "no-one here, including M and LL are 'bitter'..."

LemonLime wrote:

More importantly, she was born into a Muslim family, grew up in that Muslim family in a Muslim country surrounded by Muslims all her life. Not for one second do I think it's prudent to assume anyone in that circumstance doesn't know that apostasy is deadly precisely from family members -- especially when family members are as pro-Islamic as her parents/brothers.
............................

Actually, LemonLime, Muslims and Muslim apostates falling victim to "Honor Killings" is *incredibly common*.

Amina and Sarah Said walked right into a trap when family members said they wanted to affect a reconciliation. This sort of horror *happens all the time*.

More:

Thus, when such a Muslim repeatedly affects a naivete about this, red flags such pop up in our minds, leading to only two plausible explanations:

1) that curious and probably unique type of schizophrenia which islamochristians and many ex-Muslims demonstrate through their continued willful denial of the deadly evil they know damn well is practiced and believed by Muslims and which is as a consequence rife in Muslim societies

2) deception.

There is no third alternative. LO would be lucky to get out of our judgement intact with a verdict of #1 -- unless her sophistical defenders continue to be sucessful in obfuscating the issue.
............................

I believe you come closest with #1—but this is *not* just the case with Islam.

I grew up in a violently dysfunctional, underclass family. Things got worse and worse until my alcoholic mother almost beat me to death when I was fifteen.

I had enough sense to run away, even though that meant living on the street for months.

But I never reported the abuse to the authorities, and I kept attempting to reach out to my family. Why? Because of misplaced sentiment—on some level, I still loved my family, and I wanted to like and respect them, as well.

For one thing, I kept thinking when I had been away from them for awhile that they simply *couldn't* have been as horrible as I remembered. After all, I grew up in the same circumstances, and I was (more of less) OK.

In addition, I took the least little indication of any decency and decided it was a sign that they had actually changed—or, perhaps, hadn't really so bad to begin with.

That I had both these theses disproven over and over again didn't stop me from wanting to believe them. I would smarten up for a while, and then fall back into the same pattern of foolish hopefulness.

When I was at university—I had managed to get off the street and was accepted to college—my mother let me know that the house I had grown up in had been condemned, and that she and my younger brother needed to stay with me while the city made repairs. (If you are amazed by this gall, just reread the description of Shakila's mother reminding her daughter to pony up the next few months of checks, even as her mother has disowned her and tacitly acknowledges the death penalty for apostasy).

I balked, and spent weeks in emotional turmoil over the matter. When all her other options fell through, I reluctantly agreed, over the perfectly rational objections of my boyfriend.

Well, they weren't violent—probably because of the presence of my 6'4" boyfriend—like so many bullies, they were essentially cowards. But they trashed our place, and my brother used it to sell drugs. It also turned out that they had lied to us, and that the three weeks they had claimed the work would take was actually three months.

I could tell other stories, as well—winding up on one occasion at a relative's house late at night where everyone was on crack and I had no way to get home...

At this point, you're probably thinking that I'm a blithering idiot—and in many ways, you would be entirely correct. Actually, I'm cringing just recounting this.

But I believe its sometimes facile for people who didn't grow up under such horrific circumstances to apply strict rationality to such cases—this isn't always so easy.

For one thing, while I rejected the violence and criminality of the family I grew up with from the beginning, I had unwittingly retained a lot of irrational ways of dealing with the world. It took me *years* to learn to apply reason to all aspects of my life. There are, in fact, a few issues I'm *still* working on, although at this point, I at least recognize such cases.

My situation was not unique—I've talked to people who grew up in similar circumstances, and have read about many others—people who were smart enough to get out and change their lives, but were at risk of slipping back under.

I'm not claiming that my experiences are exactly the same as the Liberated One's, but I recognize *a lot* of the same things going on.

As you—and Hugh Fitzgerald, and others—have noted, a lot of Muslims, even those decent and intelligent enough to apostasize, still can't bring themselves to fully admit how evil Islam is, and how much that evil has affected their own loved ones.

Everything I've read from the Liberated One feels emotionally true—including, concerningly, her downplaying or ignoring warnings about what she is facing.

Dumbledore's Army has opined that some people who came from a background like mine—and have been finally able to fully escape it—are more apt to recognize the Jihad threat. Certainly, the parallels are there.

But a phenomenon you find only in the underclass and among the obviously dysfunctional in the West is pretty much the norm in the Muslim world.

There, getting out—especially getting out alive—is much, much harder...

"(more of less)" should be "(more or less)".

And one of my "its" should have "it's"...

...really, I should have proofread that post more carefully.

Actually, LemonLime, Muslims and Muslim apostates falling victim to "Honor Killings" is *incredibly common*.

Amina and Sarah Said walked right into a trap when family members said they wanted to affect a reconciliation. This sort of horror *happens all the time*.

Perhaps it happens as often as it does because the victims are lax in their rational fear of their own family -- likely for reasons I've mentioned about LO. The in-denial naivete of other Muslim victims hardly salvages LO in this regard.

Hey old codgers rock! It's the bitter people, like you, that suck ...

"Judge not lest ye be judged."

You do realize that this is *THE* most misquoted verse in the Bible, don't you? Well it is; and context is key, McFly, so read the entire passage and educate yourself. Otherwise you look foolish.

gravenimage,

Thanks for going into such personal details. You've certainly been through the ringer with family dysfunction. You seem remarkably well adjusted and bright now.

While I agree Muslims and especially Muslims in transition out of Islam often suffer from Stockholm Syndrome and the denial that goes along with it, there's one big difference: As terrible your mother's treatment of you was, her dysfunction isn't part of a global organization with a blueprint motivating innumerable millions of fanatical followers of the ideology of that blueprint to endanger various societies all over the planet, including my own. That by itself puts LO's problem on a different plane; and frankly, I don't like the platform she has been privileged with on this forum, since it communicates tacitly that she's brave and courageous etc. without communicating the problematic aspects which impinge on the Counter Jihad and, by extension, on the ongoing safety of all of us. LO is tacitly communicating that sure, Islam is bad, and whew! thank God she escaped -- but along with that package comes the implicit message that Muslims aren't all that bad, I mean look at my family, I told them I'm leaving, I a lifelong intelligent Muslim who grew up in a Muslim society came to the conclusion that I could come out of the apostate closet -- and see, nothing's happened to me, and I'm drinking pina coladas in Abu Dhabi or whatever towel-head emirate she's in.

You wrote:

"LO is tacitly communicating that sure, Islam is bad, and whew! thank God she escaped -- but along with that package comes the implicit message that Muslims aren't all that bad, I mean look at my family, I told them I'm leaving, I a lifelong intelligent Muslim who grew up in a Muslim society came to the conclusion that I could come out of the apostate closet -- and see, nothing's happened to me, and I'm drinking pina coladas in Abu Dhabi or whatever towel-head emirate she's in."

I agree, and that's a great summation of how I view her past updates as well, and most notably her most recent update. It's a major let down to read how she has seemingly made such progress by taking say 5 steps forward, only to now see that she's taken 3 or even 4 steps back. I don't know, is she in denial? Did her family get to her? Is she for real? All good questions you and others are asking. And how strange that she's still giving her family $$ under the circumstances; which apparently makes her feel *safe* because of it. I have to wonder, would she still consider herself safe were she not in a position to help them financially? Perhaps a good litmus test for her. Yeah her latest update was a total let down.

Run, don't walk.

Run.

Get out of there. Please, sister. Please.

~~~~~

I agree, DDA ...she needs to make a decisive change and get out stat. One foot in the door is completely dangerous and stupid. I can't even believe that she's doubling back like this. This is disappointing and sad.

LemonLime/Hesperado,

I think you are misconstruing my comment which was addressed to Infidel's comment. The issue raised by a commenter in this thread was over Liberated's claim that there were no honour killings in the UAE. In the part you quoted, I was referring to examples such as Liberated's lack of knowledge of that fact.

I was not referring to her knowledge of the level of risk generally faced by Muslim apostates who come out. She seems to be well aware of the level of risk in general, which is why she remains anonymous. To assess the level of risk to her, in her own situation with her family, requires not only a general knowledge of Muslims' attitudes and behaviour but of the particular facts about her family, knowledge which Liberated has but which we don't (or not much). So the commenters who are casting hasty and hostile judgements against Liberated are doing so without a complete picture, without complete knowledge.

It does not follow that the only possibilities are that she is either "schizophrenic" or is engaging in "deception," as you claim in your ad hominem personal attacks against Liberated.

I should add that the fact that some honour killings have occurred in the UAE in itself doesn't tell us much about the level of risk. For that, we need (as one piece of information out of several) data on the rate of such killings there.

If we take this story as genuine, Liberated has bravely and finally told the truth to her family. She's done it, they haven't killed her (yet; nor does that seem likely from her account), and she is now moving forward. Things thus far seem to have turned out better than Liberated expected. I'm glad to see this.

Concern for Liberated's well-being is appropriate. But there is no point in some commenters complaining about her "coming out" to her family now; it's done. She told them. There is no justification for the vicious personal attacks that you and other commenters are launching against Liberated.

So far, the *only* thing you have done here is undermine the reputations of Anti-Jihadists.

I think he has done that himself.

The MSM has branded the EDL as violent, so having a leader who has three convictions for violence doesn't help the EDL,s image.

Two of these convictions came after being the leader of EDL.

If you are a leader of an organisation, then it is your responsibility to stay out of situation which could lead to jail, and not behave like a leader of a street gang.

"There is no justification for the vicious personal attacks that you and other commenters are launching against Liberated"

To clarify: In my judgement, the commenters who've engaged in over-the-top and unwarranted personal attacks against Liberated in this thread include Gunung Semeru, thomas_h, LemonLime,
miriam rove, Infidel.

I have no major problem with people who might still have doubts about Liberated. I do have a problem with these hostile personal attacks.

I believe Liberated is genuine mainly because (a) Robert and Sina have indicated that they have much more additional information supporting her veracity; and (b) she's been harshly criticizing Islam and Muhammad in posts for the span of over a year (starting on Ali Sina's site).

My belief in Liberated's genuineness is almost entirely based on my confidence in (a).

Everything else (including b) seems speculative.

Regarding (b), the longer she engages in criticism of Islam, the less likely it seems to me that this would be some kind of scam. Scams intended to fool Robert and Jihadwatchers, if they were attempted, would probably be carried out by Islamic supremacists or their leftist allies who want to promote a favorable view of Islam while attacking the credibility of Islam critics. I don't think it's likely that such people would want to post criticism of Islam for as long and as extensively as Liberated has. The fact that Liberated describes a scenario in which she has not yet been killed by her family is hardly an endorsement of Islam; there are other negative personal and social consequences for apostates and Liberated has described some of them.

In addition, consider that even to "pretend" to criticize Islam would put one in possible danger of being killed by other Islamic supremacists who weren't in on the ruse. Moreover, it is nothing new for one set of jihadists to murder another set of jihadists over some minor differences of opinion about how jihad should be carried out. Blaspheming against Islam and Muhammad for a year with no discernible pay-off might not be high on the list of approved-for-jihad-but-otherwise-haram-activities.

(Why would someone who is not an apostate, and therefore not at risk of being killed for being one, take on the risk of being killed by claiming to be one?)

Someone creating a ruse, or someone associated with those creating the ruse, with the intention of discrediting Spencer and Sina, is eventually going to have to surface to show that the whole apostasy from Islam story was a ruse in order to trick Spencer. Doing that would make the deceivers, not Spencer, look like the bad guys. Indeed, Spencer has done due diligence in verifying Liberated, so it is not Spencer who would look bad, if this whole thing was revealed to be a ruse. On the contrary, if this were a ruse, it would look bad for the Islamic supremacists or leftists who carried out and took credit for the ruse. We (Islam critics, etc.) could chalk this up as one more example of the extents that jihadists will go to in order to deceive the public and attack Islam critics. (I'm not saying there aren't Islamic supremacists dumb enough to actually attempt this, but it doesn't seem likely. And it seems even less likely that they'd carry it out for over a year without realizing the self-defeating nature of their scheme). It is also possible that such a scheme could be attributed to an anonymous individual and that a pro-Islamic media source or group could try to pass off as merely "reporting" that a ruse was successfully carried out against Spencer. But again, this just makes it look like the people who are trying to discredit Spencer have to resort to deception.

(It is interesting to note that some of the Islamic supremacist commenters and trolls keep claiming that this story of Liberated is all a ruse by Spencer and Sina. Yet Spencer and Sina don't need to manufacture stories about apostates; such stories are picked up on various websites, and in the mainstream media, such that there are now many documented accounts of apostates).

Many things are possible. It is also possible that someone (pro-Islam) is engaging in a long-term deception whereby Islam is initially criticized harshly but then at a later point the person gradually begins to present Islam as not so bad after all, and maybe even returns to Islam. That doesn't seem applicable here though; the most that can be said at this point is that Liberated's story indicates that when she revealed her apostasy to her family they were less hostile (thus far) than she had feared (though indeed hostile in regards to the apostasy); and that UAE is more lax Islamically compared to some other Islamic countries (which is true). None of this makes Islam look good.

It is also possible that an anti-Islam person could be engaged in an apostasy hoax to make Islam look bad, with the intention of spreading the story but keeping its fraudulent nature secret. However, this too seems unlikely, because it is not necessary, nor even especially beneficial, to claim to be an apostate in order to get across one's criticisms of Islam. It's simply not worth the trouble (e.g., higher potential of being murdered) to do it.

In light of these considerations, it just doesn't seem worth the trouble for interested parties on either side of this battle (Islamic supremacists vs counterjihadists) to engage in such an extensive deception.

To review, I have three main reasons why I think Liberated's story is genuine:

(a) Robert and Sina have information verifying Liberated's existence;

(b) Liberated has been harshly criticizing Islam and Muhammad in posts for the span of over a year;

(c) there seems to be no significant benefits, but possibly significant costs [including death!], for engaging in an apostasy hoax, and therefore no motive for choosing that course action when others are available.

Gravenimage, thank you so much for your incredibly brave and courageous post.

I remember that you have in a couple of posts in the past, alluded to your family situation, but I had no idea it was so horrendous as that.

**Tremendous** kudos to you for the courage, integrity, and **character** you have shown in your determination to leave it behind, and make a successful life for yourself. **Huge** hugs.

In regard to what you say in your post about your feelings for your family, and cross-indexing that with what the LO says.

I do concur. I said in a post on a previous article about the LO, that it is incredibly difficult to believe that the people one **loves** may in fact not love one at all, and indeed be capable of inflicting harm, **terminal** harm.

It is human nature to want to think the best of those one loves, and I think that the LO is not exhibiting a schizophrenic attitude re islam, but is in actuality reflecting that natural human desire.

I don't think she is a fake, either. Mr. Spencer is no fool, and as he vouches for her, I am inclined to believe her, unless incontravertible evidence to the contrary swims to the surface.

However, I do think she is being very foolhardy; she and her John need to **leave**, before both of them may possibly pay a terrible price, however much she may not want to believe it.

Keep well, graven, bless you.

Gunung Semeru wrote:

So far, the *only* thing you have done here is undermine the reputations of Anti-Jihadists.

I think he has done that himself...
..............................

I see that you haven't addressed the main part of my post at all.

To refresh your memory:

If my posting were dodgy, you would have no problem refuting them, which you cannot so you resort to trying to label me a muslim troll.
...

Unless I see some evidence to imply that you have any problem at all with violent Jihad—and any problem with our simply rolling over in the face of it—then my estimation of you will not change.
..............................

So far here at Jihad Watch, you have cast aspersions on the EDL's Tommy Robinson—including crowing that he was "with the pedos" in prison, which merely means that he was in protective custody because of *violent Muslims*, but which slyly hinted that he is some sort of sex criminal—implied that it was just as likely that French or British troops shot the nose off the Sphinx, even though this has been amply disproven; and said that Muslimah prostitutes complained that "Ozzie" (presumably "Australian", since the reply was to Dumbledore's Army) men were always drunk.

The *only* comment that may possibly have any sort of issue with Islam at all was a story you posted—entirely without comment—about Shi'ites suspected of terrorism.

This last, as we know, is as likely to come from a pious Sunni Muslim as from anyone who is actually anti-Jihad.

You have never actually affirmed that you *aren't* a Muslim troll—you've just deflected the question by coyly saying that no Muslim would name himself after a Buddhist/Hindu mountain. Taqiyya, anyone?

So—I ask again: Are you against violent Jihad? What is your opinion of 9/11, the London Tube bombings, and the attack on Mumbai?

Are you against the imposition of Shari'ah law? What is your opinion of amputating the hands of petty thieves and the stoning of those who have committed Zina?

These are very, very simple questions—we are not getting into any sort of nuance here.

Are you an Anti-Jihadist?

It sure as hell doesn't look like it...

Judge not lest ye be judged.

"context is key" Read my entire post "They jest at scars that never felt a wound." Then read gravenimage's post.

Though I have never been remotely in her(?) position, I come from a very loving united family, I can imagine what things could be like and I also have experience of friends and acquaintances in similar situations.

The "bitter and cynical old codger" was chiefly to Lemonlime here. He cannot sympathise, cannot empathise, cannot see any good in any Muslim ex or otherwise, cannot distinguish between Muslims and Islam.

Shows no interest in converting them or moving them away from Islam. Once they do hates them just as much. The evidence points to him being a racist.

As for Liberated, you have not been in her shoes. Use your imagination, cut her some slack.

Judge not lest ye be judged.

"context is key" Read my entire post "They jest at scars that never felt a wound." Then read gravenimage's post.

Though I have never been remotely in her(?) position, I come from a very loving united family, I can imagine what things could be like and I also have experience of friends and acquaintances in similar situations.

The "bitter and cynical old codger" was chiefly to Lemonlime here. He cannot sympathise, cannot empathise, cannot see any good in any Muslim ex or otherwise, cannot distinguish between Muslims and Islam.

Shows no interest in converting them or moving them away from Islam. Once they do hates them just as much. The evidence points to him being a racist.

As for Liberated, you have not been in her shoes. Use your imagination, cut her some slack.

"The "bitter and cynical old codger" was chiefly to Lemonlime here. He cannot sympathise, cannot empathise, cannot see any good in any Muslim ex or otherwise..."

Sure I can. I can see many types of good in various Muslims -- ostensible, apparent good. The problem is in vetting that good for the purposes of our safety, to make sure it is reliably genuine not only temporarily, but indefinitely; which wouldn't be a big problem if Muslims weren't so numerous, so globally dispersed, so dynamically motile with doctrinal motivation to emigrate (look up "Hijra") in order to conquer, and if their deadly Islam didn't also have such a widespread culture of taqiyya and stealth jihad.

"...cannot distinguish between Muslims and Islam."

Sure I can: Islam is the blueprint for hateful intolerant supremacist violent conquest; and Muslim is the person enabling that blueprint (at best) or putting it into bloody practice (at worst).

I was not referring to her knowledge of the level of risk generally faced by Muslim apostates who come out. She seems to be well aware of the level of risk in general, which is why she remains anonymous. To assess the level of risk to her, in her own situation with her family, requires not only a general knowledge of Muslims' attitudes and behaviour but of the particular facts about her family, knowledge which Liberated has but which we don't (or not much). So the commenters who are casting hasty and hostile judgements against Liberated are doing so without a complete picture, without complete knowledge.

With a problem like Islam, with its many features including millions of potentially dangerous fanatics any number of whom may be plotting horrific attacks anywhere, anytime; and with our inability (which Spencer has agreed, emphatically and repeatedly, is a serious problem) to tell the difference between harmless Muslims and dangerous Muslims, we cannot rest in relying upon ascertaining irrefutable evidence before we implement certain types of policies for our self-defense against Muslims.

Islam is not the only complex danger where that type of rational prejudice obtains; but it certainly is arguably the most deadly serious in our time.

Closely related to this is the crucial role of the war of ideas -- doubly crucial because our surrounding Western societies tend to be myopic to the danger, and so our war of ideas has as one of its main purposes waking up our fellow Westerners to the nature and dimension of the danger. In this context, and given what I explained prior to this present paragraph here, it's not pragmatically relevant what we can prove about LO; what matters is what message she embodies and conveys in her Story, and how that message either benefits, or tends to undermine, our war of ideas.

Any one of us, or groups of us, may or may not be able to become convinced of the veracity of a given Muslim; but to make such a given Muslim a model of the problem in general -- which suffers from our general inability to tell the difference between harmless and dangerous Muslims, and which is characterized by a global dispersion of millions of potential murderous fanatics, including millions continuing to infiltrate deeply into our Western societies, enabled by our own PC MC -- is precisely the wrong position to take. It is rational for us to assume that any given ex-Muslim or Muslim who claims to be "moderate"

a) knows how deadly Islam is, and how deadly fellow Muslims are

and thus

b) when they claim otherwise, are either schizophrenic or trying to deceive us.

Given the totality of what I have argued above, it would be reckless for us to assume otherwise. You are framing LO in an artificial microcosm, abstracted from the actual macrocosm of the general problem we face with a global revival of Islam and innumerable millions we cannot distinguish from any putatively harmless Muslims among them -- and abstracted from these particular exigencies of our war of ideas that is grappling with this general problem.

But you know all this; so why are you taking the time and trouble to argue otherwise?

Yes it is strange that the Stop Honour Killing site cannot be accessed.

Any ways, unlike everybody here, I live amongst muslims. One of the golden rules of survival, is never trust a muslim.

Another is to rely on gut feelings, and the feelings I get from LO are not positive.

On matters like this, as a matter of survival, I would rather rely on my gut feelings than on Mr Spencers vetting which is based on a phone call, photos, and a resume, all of which can be falsified.

LemonLime wrote:

Thanks for going into such personal details. You've certainly been through the ringer with family dysfunction. You seem remarkably well adjusted and bright now.
..........................

Thank you, LemonLime.

More:

While I agree Muslims and especially Muslims in transition out of Islam often suffer from Stockholm Syndrome and the denial that goes along with it, there's one big difference: As terrible your mother's treatment of you was, her dysfunction isn't part of a global organization with a blueprint motivating innumerable millions of fanatical followers of the ideology of that blueprint to endanger various societies all over the planet, including my own. That by itself puts LO's problem on a different plane...
..........................

Point taken—I never meant to imply the situations were the same—in fact, I took pains to note the differences.

Although my family *was* a threat to their neighbors. One of my family members wound up serving a stretch in San Quentin for a crime committed against a neighbor. Ugly stuff.

But I very much take your point—the shear scale of the Muslim threat dwarfs that of crime in the West. Also, Islam has a deliberate, defined creed aimed at seizing power and oppressing and murdering the Kuffar.

More:

...and frankly, I don't like the platform she has been privileged with on this forum, since it communicates tacitly that she's brave and courageous etc. without communicating the problematic aspects which impinge on the Counter Jihad and, by extension, on the ongoing safety of all of us. LO is tacitly communicating that sure, Islam is bad, and whew! thank God she escaped -- but along with that package comes the implicit message that Muslims aren't all that bad, I mean look at my family, I told them I'm leaving, I a lifelong intelligent Muslim who grew up in a Muslim society came to the conclusion that I could come out of the apostate closet -- and see, nothing's happened to me, and I'm drinking pina coladas in Abu Dhabi or whatever towel-head emirate she's in.
..........................

With respect, I disagree. I believe the more we learn about Islam, including from those who grew up with the ugly faith, the better. I have *never* taken a minimizing of the threat of Jihad from LO's blog. Maybe that's just me—but I believe this just gives us a sense of how oppressive Islam is—even to born into the creed.

In any case, I appreciate your considered reply.

Thanks for your reply, gravenimage. I always look forward to reading your analyses, and I like your style. You and Champ are consistently reasonable even if I may disagree with certain details.

As far as LO, I understand your logic, but I'm concerned about the overall message her Story conveys. What's the overall point of her Story?

It seems to me that it is summed up by: Islam is bad, but Muslim (like LO's family) can be ok.

That in my estimation is a potentially disastrous message to be promulgated on a site like this as propaganda.

LemonLime/Hesperado,

You wrote:

"More importantly, she was born into a Muslim family, grew up in that Muslim family in a Muslim country surrounded by Muslims all her life. Not for one second do I think it's prudent to assume anyone in that circumstance doesn't know that apostasy is deadly precisely from family members -- especially when family members are as pro-Islamic as her parents/brothers.
Thus, when such a Muslim repeatedly affects a naivete about this, red flags such pop up in our minds,"

That's not correct. According to her account, Liberated was well aware of, and fearful of, the possibility of family members finding out about her apostasy and killing her.

Back in January, 2012, Liberated wrote:

"These and many other similar hadeeths from various sources prove beyond any doubt that the Islamic Shariah punishment for apostasy is execution. This is precisely the reason why I have to hide my apostasy for the rest of my life and I have to keep on pretending to be a Muslim among other Muslims. Trust me, it is not an easy task, especially since I am not a Muslim anymore and I do not agree with anything which Islam says. It was pretty difficult being a practicing Muslim for the last 35 years, but now it is even harder. Some of my well wishers here on my blog suggested that I speak to my family about my apostasy and take their advice, but little do they know that my parents love their religion, especially their ideal perfect human being, the prophet of Islam Mohammed, more than they love their own daughter. They would not even think twice before disowning me for life, that is, if they do not kill me first in a fit of rage, which is pretty likely, come to think of it. I say this because once a couple of years ago, when I was pretty much a Muslim, I was reading “Infidel” by Ayaan Hirsi Ali when my mother caught me reading it. She just read the introduction and got mad at me for even reading such a book. She said if any of my children did such a thing, I would kill her/him and then report myself to the police, I won’t mind even going to prison for such a crime because this is something which Allah and his prophet has ordered us to do. These were her very own words, so there is no way I can confide about my apostasy to anyone, especially my parents."

http://liberatednow.blogspot.ca/2012/01/believe-or-die.html

LemonLime/Hesperado wrote:
"Thus, when such a Muslim repeatedly affects a naivete about this, red flags such pop up in our minds,"

First, let's correct that. Liberated is not a Muslim, but is an ex-Muslim.

Second, as a full reading of Liberated's story indicates, she is not naive about the possibility of being killed by her family. As I showed above, she is clearly well aware of the possibility. As I suggested in a comment above to Gunung Semeru, Liberated's view of the likelihood of being killed by family members seems to have evolved more recently in light of subsequent experiences viz. her family meeting her non-Muslim fiancee and, later, learning of her loss of, or change of, faith. It seems that, based on their reactions thus far, as well as a renewed assessment of her situation with her family in light of these developments, she does not think it is as likely that they'd try to kill her.

As I noted previously, to evaluate Liberated's level of risk requires not only a knowledge of Islamic policy and Muslim attitudes generally, but also requires a knowledge of Liberated's situation and family members, and this latter knowledge Liberated has and we do not. Lacking this knowledge of Liberated's particular evolving circumstances and the personalities involved, we are therefore not in a position to accuse Liberated of underestimating her current level of risk.

I would gather that Liberated's latest post (the cat is of the bag part 2) is an attempt to explain to readers why she believes being killed is unlikely. But at no point does she claim that the possibility is so unlikely that she can abandon all caution, or prudence.

correction: (the cat is out of the bag, part 2)

Unlike you, Robert S, Ali Sini, D Woods and P Geller, I live 24x7 amongst muslims, so my gut feelings override anything the above have to say.

Another thing that bugs me, she seems so deluded and ignorant about islam, yet she sees it important enough to make contact with the above mentioned people.

"That's not correct. According to her account, Liberated was well aware of, and fearful of, the possibility of family members finding out about her apostasy and killing her..."

It's amazing how the otherwise intelligent and rational Kinana of Khaybar, whenever he directs his focus on me, loses all his rationality. The above remark I quoted is so easily refuted, it's almost painful: Yes, LO showed signs of being fearful of her family, but obviously, not suffieiently fearful. Isn't that the whole point of this meta-debate which has coalesced in this thread? The point is not whether LO fears, or has ever feared, her family's Islamo-fanaticism -- but to what degree.

A person can be aware of smoke in their house and can show signs of fear of a house fire, but if they not only take insufficient action to save themselves but actually fan the flames, then obviously the concern they showed is outweighed by opposing relative inactivity/flame-fanning.

Gunung makes eminent sense to me -- at least in the comment I'm linking.

Also, Kinana, with his usual alacrity to seize upon precisely the inapposite point, points out to Gunung in order to refute Gunung's "gut feeling" that LO is not a Muslim but a Muslim who became an ex-Muslim: however, there are two issues involved here, not one. Gunung's "gut feeling" may refer to his suspicions about LO, but it also (for those who are capable of patting their heads and rubbing their stomachs at the same time, a simple feat Kinana appears incapable of doing) refers to LO's Muslim family about whom LO is showing a remarkably insufficient fear. LO's "gut feeling" obviously sides in favor of her family. You can't be "a little pregnant": when it comes to Islam, you have to make the choice George Bush (for all his other faults) put so eloquently. You're either with them, or you're with us. There is no third option on this issue: that in fact is the very exquisite definition of this issue.

I absolutely agree with your analysis.

Bitter and cynical lemonlime of course refuses to accept any ex-Muslim turned Christian as a Christian. Frothing at the mouth curled into a snarl he hurls stones at the sinner, being the first without sin, and thanks Jesus loudly he is not like that sinful woman but so much better than her.

I absolutely agree with your analysis.

Bitter and cynical lemonlime of course refuses to accept any ex-Muslim turned Christian as a Christian. Frothing at the mouth curled into a snarl he hurls stones at the sinner, being the first without sin, and thanks Jesus loudly he is not like that sinful woman but so much better than her.

Rich wrote, replying to LemonLime:

Judge not lest ye be judged.

"context is key" Read my entire post "They jest at scars that never felt a wound." Then read gravenimage's post.
...........................

Thank you, Rich.

More:

The "bitter and cynical old codger" was chiefly to Lemonlime here. He cannot sympathise, cannot empathise, cannot see any good in any Muslim ex or otherwise, cannot distinguish between Muslims and Islam.

Shows no interest in converting them or moving them away from Islam. Once they do hates them just as much. The evidence points to him being a racist.
...........................

Rich, while I am very sympathetic to Muslims—and, especially, Muslim apostates—in Liberated One's position, I *do* understand LemonLime's concerns, and share many of them myself.

Very often, there *is* no distinction between Muslims and Islam. While many Muslims are lax or semi-apostates, there is simply no iron-clad way to judge who these Muslims are, nor is it likely that many of even the more "moderate" Muslims will actually stand with us in any substantive way against their more Jihad-minded coreligionists.

In fact, much of the evidence has been to the contrary.

There is also the terrible and very common phenomenon where relatively "moderate" Muslims—who present no direct threat of violent Jihad to the West—nonetheless have children or bring over relatives who do represent a very great threat to us.

Although it treats the subject as darkly humorous, the story "My Son the Fanatic" deals with this phenomenon.

And LemonLime's claim that many Muslim apostates tend to minimize or underestimate the threat from their former coreligionists is, I'm afraid, amply documented.

There is a Muslim apostate who posts regularly here at Jihad Watch whom I like and respect greatly on most points—he is clearly a brave and outspoken fellow—who nonetheless consistently downplays the threat from his native Iran, and who would have us believe that most Iranians not only thumb their noses at the Mullahs, but are poised to completely toss over Islam itself at any minute.

And yet, Iran continues as perhaps the greatest threat of all Muslim countries, and is a place that hangs gays, murders apostates, and stones women to death.

Do I believe this poster is *trying* to mislead us—that he is practicing Taqiyya? I do not. He has consistently proven himself to be a staunch Anti-Jihadist.

But I believe he takes his experience with his (relatively) moderate family and extrapolates it to the whole country, that he—like many—conflates laxness with genuine anti-Jihad convictions, and adds in a heaping helping of pure denial and misplaced hopefulness.

I have never believed that his intention is to minimize the Jihad threat—but it *does* have that effect.

There are many other examples.

Along with other posters here, I have urged Shakila to flee to the West with her fiance. But I realize that even this is potentially problematic—if, as she hopes, greed and inertia win out over "honor" and Islamic violence with her family, this might lead to unexpected issues in the future.

What if, settled in England, she decides that her Muslim family wasn't so bad after all, and helps them all immigrate to Britain?

This is hardly unlikely—and it would, completely unintentionally on her part, no doubt—put the civilized Infidel country that would give her sanctuary in potential danger.

I don't believe that LemonLime is incapable of seeing any good in Muslim apostates, or even in people who still identify as Muslim—just that he realizes that many of them are, nonetheless, problematic for free Infidels who want to remain that way in the face of the threat of Islam.

I don't believe that any of these concerns are
"racist".

I will always be sympathetic to those at threat from Muslim violence—even other Muslims.

And I greatly respect the *enormous* intelligence and courage it takes for Muslims to break away from Islam—especially those who, like the Liberated One, still live in some part of the Muslim world.

Robert Spencer and Pamela Geller in their efforts to help apostates and others at risk for "Honor Killings" are clearly *very* sympathetic to these folks.

And yet, they have also noted that even many of those threatened by Islam have the potential to be both strong allies of ours *and* enablers of Jihad in one way or another, unwittingly or not.

And I also understand Infidels who wonder why the hell it is up to us to save these people—especially since so many close to them represent such a direct threat to *us*.

I can see both sides. This is enormously complicated, and each instance must be considered pretty much on a case by case basis.

Gunung Semeru,

If you are as knowledgeable of Islam and Muslims as you continue to imply that you are, you ought to be able to provide something better by way of argument than what you've provided thus far, which is...

1. An appeal to an inexplicable gut feeling.
2. A baseless unsubstantiated claim that you live among Muslims and therefore you have more insight into Liberated than others here (though you've yet to share these insights with us)
3. A ludicrous argument about the usage of the word Mom/Mum
4. A knee-jerk allegation that Liberated is lying (not merely mistaken) about everything she says because she was wrong about there never being and honour killing in the UAE
5. Hasty jumping to conclusions/ tunnel vision regarding the issue of the alcohol license
6. Out-of-hand unwarranted dismissal of the only reasonably solid evidence in this case, namely, Robert's and Sina's verification of her

In short, you have put on a display of exactly how not to make a case and present it.

LemonLime wrote:

Thanks for your reply, gravenimage. I always look forward to reading your analyses, and I like your style. You and Champ are consistently reasonable even if I may disagree with certain details.
............................

Thank you, LemonLime. I feel the same about your own comments.

Rich,

It saddens me to see this. LemonLime's (Hesperado's) posts (especially the last two) have become unhinged and incoherent such that I think it would be pointless for me to respond to him at this point.

I think you've pegged him fairly well. Here's my take it on this:

Hesperado is madder than a wet hen because Liberated presented a report in which some of her family did not apparently react with immediate murderous rage when she finally revealed her apostasy. Since this data does not conform to Hesperado's theories, and does not seem to be the kind of picture of Islam and Muslims he'd like to see presented on Jihadwatch, his response has been to

1. Reject the data.
2. Impugn and smear the source ("deception," "schizophrenic," "The Deluded One," etc.) .
3. Impugn and attack anyone who tries to defend the source
4. Demand that Jihadwatch stop featuring Liberated's story entirely.

And this reaction is all very hasty. It is a reaction to one point in time in the context of a changing, developing story. It seems that some commenters like Hesperado don't have the patience to see how this all plays out, and they balk and cry foul at the first glimmer of something contrary to their expectations.

Jan wrote:

Gravenimage, thank you so much for your incredibly brave and courageous post.
..........................

Thank you so much, Jan! Sorry it took me so long to reply—there is a *lot* going on on this thread.

And I very much agree with the rest of your comments regarding LO.

Thanks for your thoughtful clarification and defense of my position (though I understand you don't completely agree with it).

I found everything perfectly fine and well put -- except for the very last line:

This is enormously complicated, and each instance must be considered pretty much on a case by case basis.

I believe there are too many Muslims, spread out all over the world, and highly mobile to make a case-by-case examination (which would have to be thorough) practical -- then add in the problem of taqiyya, and it gets worse. Certainly in the meantime while the West is dithering around we can try to help as many Muslims leave Islam as feasible; but I think it would be a mistake to individualize this problem, because of the sheer magnitude and complexity involved.

(I went into this in more detail in my previous post to KK -- http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/11/ex-muslim-in-muslim-country-tells-family-about-her-apostasy-i-am-actually-happy.html#comment-916312 )

"LemonLime's (Hesperado's) posts (especially the last two) have become unhinged and incoherent..."

The posts he must be referring to are:

1)

[quoting Kinana of Khaybar:] "That's not correct. According to her account, Liberated was well aware of, and fearful of, the possibility of family members finding out about her apostasy and killing her..."

It's amazing how the otherwise intelligent and rational Kinana of Khaybar, whenever he directs his focus on me, loses all his rationality. The above remark I quoted is so easily refuted, it's almost painful: Yes, LO showed signs of being fearful of her family, but obviously, not suffieiently fearful. Isn't that the whole point of this meta-debate which has coalesced in this thread? The point is not whether LO fears, or has ever feared, her family's Islamo-fanaticism -- but to what degree.

A person can be aware of smoke in their house and can show signs of fear of a house fire, but if they not only take insufficient action to save themselves but actually fan the flames, then obviously the concern they showed is outweighed by opposing relative inactivity/flame-fanning.

2)

Gunung makes eminent sense to me -- at least in the comment I'm linking [i.e., http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/11/ex-muslim-in-muslim-country-tells-family-about-her-apostasy-i-am-actually-happy.html#comment-916412].

Also, Kinana, with his usual alacrity to seize upon precisely the inapposite point, points out to Gunung in order to refute Gunung's "gut feeling" that LO is not a Muslim but a Muslim who became an ex-Muslim: however, there are two issues involved here, not one. Gunung's "gut feeling" may refer to his suspicions about LO, but it also (for those who are capable of patting their heads and rubbing their stomachs at the same time, a simple feat Kinana appears incapable of doing) refers to LO's Muslim family about whom LO is showing a remarkably insufficient fear. LO's "gut feeling" obviously sides in favor of her family. You can't be "a little pregnant": when it comes to Islam, you have to make the choice George Bush (for all his other faults) put so eloquently. You're either with them, or you're with us. There is no third option on this issue: that in fact is the very exquisite definition of this issue.

Not only are these two comments of mine unremarkably coherent and perfectly hinged, as anyone with elementary remedial reading skills can see for themselves; they articulate arguments in detail defending my criticisms of Kinana of Khaybar -- a show of minimal respect rarely reciprocated by him or by "Rich".

So KK to make every thing fit you even have to play down honour killing

You Wrote

Honour killings and killings for apostasy are statistically rare; the social and personal tensions and hostilities that Liberated describes are much more common reactions, and thus Liberated's account seems plausible to me on this point as well.

Not playing down the risk at all, Gunung, just pointing out that the negative personal and social reactions Liberated describes are more common than murder attempts, and thus it seems realistic to me. (And let's not downplay those negative personal and social effects, which can have a huge impact on people's lives).

And I'm not trying to force-fit the data to a benign view of Islam, if that's what you're suggesting, because as anyone familiar with my posting history knows, I don't have a benign view of Islam.

The fact that honour killings and killings for apostasy are rare events does not mean that any given individual such as Liberated should throw caution to the wind (thus increasing her risk of being killed); nor does the fact that they are rare (e.g., compared to other sorts of death) mean that we should be unconcerned or downplay them. Terrorist attacks are also rare events, but I'm not downplaying those either. They have a big and far-reaching impact on the society, as do honour/apostasy killings.

As I noted above, I don't think Liberated has thrown caution to the wind. I think some readers are wildly overreacting and misconstruing her last post (cat out of the bag part 2), a post which was apparently intended to assure sincerely worried readers and commenters, wherein Liberated describes the reasons, relevant to her particular case, that lead her to believe that she is not at significant risk of being killed.

Now, Liberated may indeed be underestimating her risk, but we would need a whole lot more information about her particular situation to make that judgement. (I'm generally not advocating that Liberated provide more information about that though, since that might increase her risk).

Red herring.

Allowing for various factors that would lead to under-reporting, etc., they're still rare events. Hence, the point I made earlier is unaffected by your objection.

"Very often, there *is* no distinction between Muslims and Islam."

Gravenimage Islam is the ideology, the "software" so to speak, and Muslims are the carriers of that ideology, or the "hardware" in computer-speak.

When the carriers of that ideology have been hardwired with that ideology and do not have the education or intelligence (intelligence more important) to see through the lies of its doctrine, then for all intents and purposes they are Islam. And hence people have difficulty distinguishing between the two. We judge the tree by its fruit. The tree is Islam.

But the carriers of the ideology are human beings. Many of them are still capable of reason. They are not one solid block of one colour as Lemonlime and his ilk would like to paint them. Just like anyone else they come in a spectrum, withy varying intelligence and education. Just like anyone else - I am not the same as you.

If you go to her first posting you can read my views and where I have engaged a Muslim tarekg in debate.
http://liberatednow.blogspot.co.nz/2012/11/the-cat-is-finally-out-of-bag.html

Lemonlime has his own blinkered and intolerant view of things. The world has to conform to his own view to be "one of us", which he can count on the fingers of one hand, (with a few fingers left over).

To retain the moral high ground one has to be careful not become like the Islamists.

Jihad, Taqiyya are not difficult concepts to understand. They are not sophisticated, quite the contrary. No need to see Taqiyya where there is none. No need to have a witch hunt mentality.

That example you gave of the Iranian who says that the majority of Iranians are against the regime is I believe true. I have spoken to Iranians in my country (NZ) they have told me the same thing. Amil Imani says the same thing.

Kinana of Khaybar has put Lemonlime and his couple of supporters attitude very well:

1. Reject the data.
2. Impugn and smear the source ("deception," "schizophrenic," "The Deluded One," etc.) .
3. Impugn and attack anyone who tries to defend the source
4. Demand that Jihadwatch stop featuring Liberated's story entirely.

These self appointed guardians of what they imagine is this sites dogma are on the verge of mentally declaring Robert Spencer not "one of us" and a suspected apostate from their narrow clique.

"When the carriers of that ideology have been hardwired with that ideology and do not have the education or intelligence (intelligence more important) to see through the lies of its doctrine"

There have been plenty of intelligent Muslims who continue to promote the fanaticism of Islam (either candidly, or slyly pretending not to,and thus fooling people probably like Rich) -- a sufficient number for us to reasonably exclude "intelligence" (i.e., education, and hope for the Intelligent Muslims of the World to reform) as a solution to the problem.

Kinana of Khaybar has put Lemonlime and his couple of supporters attitude very well:

1. Reject the data.

I don't advocate rejecting data: I advocate prudence in extrapolating from data (particularly in certain contexts of the problem of Islam -- sheer numbers, global dispersion, and corruption in data-gathering from Muslim sources), in order to end up favoring Muslims.

2. Impugn and smear the source ("deception," "schizophrenic," "The Deluded One," etc.) .

I'm simply describing what we are forced to conclude given a) our lack of sufficient quality data; b) sheer numbers of Muslims, their global dispersion, and corruption in data-gathering from Muslim sources; and c) innumerable stories before where a naively trusting person lost their life or nearly lost their life when they assumed they could trust Muslims.

3. Impugn and attack anyone who tries to defend the source

If you call what I'm typing to you and Kinana "attacks" then you must be afraid of the tooth fairy. There are too many real attacks out there to preposterously denote my restrained, parenthetical and extremely brief verbal phrasings as "attacks".

4. Demand that Jihadwatch stop featuring Liberated's story entirely.

I have never "demanded" anything in this regard. I only expressed my opinion -- still my right until your Muslim friends take over --
that endowing LO with an uncritical platform sends the wrong message on a macro level, while packaged on the micro level as asentimentalized individual personal story, thus crucially erring in confusing those two levels, where our problem and danger emanating from the Muslim world is precisely waged on the macro level.

There is an abusive Islamic hater who goes by the handle of "skouti".

You are very conscious about handles - do you approve of this one?

He has high praise for you and the likes of you. You are two faces of the same coin.

"..after all the nonsense that has been posted by this fake blogger.........it gets taken apart with relative ease.........toooo funny

Here have a read for yourselves

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/11/ex-muslim-in-muslim-country-tells-family-about-her-apostasy-i-am-actually-happy.html#comments

The comments are brilliant."

Too bad I dont praise you, but never mind, go console yourself with your friend and admirer "skouti".

http://liberatednow.blogspot.co.nz/2012/11/what-do-i-have-to-do-now.html#comment-form

There is an abusive Islamic hater who goes by the handle of "skouti".

You are very conscious about handles - do you approve of this one?

He has high praise for you and the likes of you. You are two faces of the same coin.

"..after all the nonsense that has been posted by this fake blogger.........it gets taken apart with relative ease.........toooo funny

Here have a read for yourselves

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/11/ex-muslim-in-muslim-country-tells-family-about-her-apostasy-i-am-actually-happy.html#comments

The comments are brilliant."

Too bad I dont praise you, but never mind, go console yourself with your friend and admirer "skouti".

http://liberatednow.blogspot.co.nz/2012/11/what-do-i-have-to-do-now.html#comment-form

Same old sniping based on false pretenses, invective, and intellectual dishonesty from Hesperado (LemonLime).

Yawn.

Good grief. In an unrelated thread, Hesperado makes more false claims about my views (my initial brief reaction there; one can follow upwards there to Hesperado's comments):
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/11/dont-blame-the-taliban-part-iii.html#comment-917237

From there, he then links to a post tucked away at a less-accessible part of his blog, a post which contains his long and disjointed commentary addressing the topic of this ("I am actually happy") thread and introducing other material as well (see this):
http://glossaryhesperado.blogspot.ca/2012/11/my-response-to-dumbledoresarmy-re.html

There are so many mischaracterizations of my views there that there is practically no way I would have time to address them all. I'll try a few (not necessarily in order), and leave it at that for now.

1. In the above thread, I took Gunung to task over his wildly overreaching allegation that Liberated was lying about everything she said, a claim he based in significant part on her incorrect statement that there were no honour killings in the UAE.

Hesperado falsely represented that instead as though I were taking Gunung to task for calling Liberated's claim "ridiculous." In fact, I have no major problem with the "ridiculous" charge, even though it is a bit overstated.

2. In the above thread, I pointed out that LL/Hesperado's attempt to smear me by smearing Rich with some irrelevant matter from another thread was a "red herring," i.e., irrelevant to the issue at hand, I clearly indicated which of Hesperado's posts I was referring to, as anyone who can follow the link can see
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/11/ex-muslim-in-muslim-country-tells-family-about-her-apostasy-i-am-actually-happy.html#comment-916566

But instead of acknowledging that he introduced a red herring, Hesperado falsely claimed that I dismissed as a red herring his concerns about unreliable statistical records in Muslim countries. In fact, as anyone can see from the thread above, I addressed that concern, and noted that honour killings remain rare events regardless of how official records are kept in Muslim countries.

Hesperado's erroneous and hasty assumption there was that I was relying on official Muslim country statistics. But I've never assumed such statistics (i.e., in the sense of data records) kept in Muslim countries are reliable, and it is reasonable to assume that Hesperado would know that I wouldn't rely on, or only on, such numbers.

My impression of the rate of honour killings is based on a variety of sources, including non-Muslim sources (including various NGOs, etc.) that try to keep tabs, however incompletely and imperfectly, on such honour killings and violence that happen in Muslim countries. When I refer to the events being rare or statistically rare, I'm referring to the rate at which I think they occur relative to other events, based on a variety of sources. I'm referring to statistics in this sense as an estimate probability (albeit an informal one). I'm not referring to statistics in the sense of data records as kept officially by Muslim countries.

Incidentally, Hesperado then cites examples of more recently revealed depravity in Islamic countries such as Afghanistan. However, Liberated's point was that UAE (or the place she lives/ed) is not like Afghanistan but is relatively Islamically lax.

3. I argued that, in order to judge Liberated as having underestimated her danger of being killed, we'd need to know (or have decent estimate of) her true level of risk, and thus we'd need to know at least (a) more information about her specific situation [which may not be feasible], and (b) the rate at which honour killings occur in the UAE (or wherever Liberated is specifically located).

Hesperado then presented me as claiming that we have to wait endlessly (or too long) for more and more data before concluding that Liberated was in danger (or, more broadly, to do anything about Islam). Not true. The reality is that in real situations we need to act based on incomplete data, and Liberated's situation is an example of that. I would note that Liberated's information about her level of risk is probably better than ours because it is based on more complete information about her immediate situation.

I never claimed...
-that Liberated was not in danger
-that Liberated was accurately judging her danger level
-that it is impossible to make an estimate of the risk of honour killings in the UAE

And as yet, Hesperado has not addressed (a). Rather, Hesperado is claiming that Liberated is crazy (or is lying) in light of what he presumes about (b) and "all Muslims".

More on this theme...
"[Hesperado writes]...it is perversely irrational to persist, as KK does, in demanding irrefutable data before we condemn Islam..."

In fact, I never remotely claimed any such thing.

"[continuing]...and before we demand that a Muslim who has grown up in a Muslim family in a Muslim society in a Muslim country show signs of appropriate rational fear and loathing of all Muslims around her including her family before we pronounce her psychologically compromised, and therefore unfit to be showcased as a model of our ongoing education about Islam, apostasy, and Muslim families in relation to apostasy."

Again, he neglects (a). He also neglects the fact that Liberated has shown fear of her family. Demanding that she "loath" her family and "all Muslims" around her--as Hesperado apparently does--is not necessarily psychologically sound.

4. At no time did I suggest that we should do nothing (or engage in fiddling) about apostasy- or honour- killings, or that Liberated should do nothing (or fiddle) to reduce her risk level. This would obviously be an absurd suggestion.

Despite that, Hesperado claims that "While he [Kinana] counsels fiddling, Rome is burning." In fact, all I recommended was that the unhinged commenters (e.g., Hesperado and others) get their facts straight before flying off the handle accusing Liberated of either deception or insanity.

4. In my earlier posts to Gunung and Hesperado (LL), I discussed the degree of risk and the level of fear as described by Liberated.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/11/ex-muslim-in-muslim-country-tells-family-about-her-apostasy-i-am-actually-happy.html#comment-916395

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/11/ex-muslim-in-muslim-country-tells-family-about-her-apostasy-i-am-actually-happy.html#comment-916395

Hesperado apparently missed that, claiming that I was only thinking in terms of whether or not Liberated was fearful, i.e., as if there are only two positions, fearful or not. He then claims he's discussing the level of fear and that Liberated's fear is not high enough. But he neglects what I actually wrote, and neglects what Liberated wrote, and the history of how she went from a high level of fear (when her mother indirectly threatened to kill her if she apostatized) to more recently a relatively lower level of fear (after introducing the family to her non-Muslim fiancee and later coming out with her apostasy and gauging their responses and re-assessing the situation).

In any case, the appropriate level of fear is one of the things we're arguing about; it is absurd for Hesperado to suggest I think Liberated is some kind of robot with a binary switch (fear on, fear off). What a silly guy, that Hesperado!

And how silly to be arguing over the extent to which someone should be more or less fearful in a situation about which we have only incomplete information, whereas the someone in question (Liberated) has more complete information...which has been the point I've been trying to get across all along to these presumptive peters and nervous nellies who keep claiming Liberated is now in immanent danger of being murdered, needs a Navy Seal Team (LL/Hesperado said that) and so on.

couple of corrections to the above post:

In #2, the link to my comment referring to a red herring is
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/11/ex-muslim-in-muslim-country-tells-family-about-her-apostasy-i-am-actually-happy.html#comment-916606

Following the link from there to LemonLime's comment to which I replied shows the blatantly red herring content.

There are two number 4s; obviously the latter should be a 5.