Hamas missile launch pad next to mosque, playground, civilian factories

"The IDF can not effectively extirpate the Hamas and Hezbollah threat without massive civilian casualties..."

Israel tries to avoid civilian casualties, but what if there were (as you say) "massive" civilian casualties? Keep in mind, these are enemy civilians. Like Germans voted for and brought the Nazi party to power in Germany, Palestinians elected the Hamas terror network to govern them. The allies deliberately firebombed German cities in order to demoralize the Germans into surrender. USAF and RAF bombers incinerated whole cities. We sought massive civilian casualties. I don't see a lot of hand wringing today here in the United States over these terror-bombings. And why should there be hand-wringing?

"Israel is critically dependent on foreign aid, especially from the U.S. Without this, Israel's military and economy would collapse...."

Which is precisely why Israel needs MORE land and resources, not less; so that Israel can be self-sufficient and militarily independent. Israel should never have given up the precious resource-rich Sinai to the enemy at Camp David.

One possible answer, re the (comparative) 'silence' of the Muslims in Judea and Samaria, is that they belong to or are ruled by a different faction: the Slow Jihadists of Fatah, as opposed to the Fast Jihadists of Hamas. In other words: same aims, but different tactics and timing.

The other thing to remember is that Judea and Samaria - and Jerusalem - are not actually that 'quiet'. There is a continual ongoing background noise of rock-throwings and stabbings and attempted attacks, most notably, aimed at Jews in Judea, and Samaria, and Jerusalem. Only they are *never* reported in our western media.

Here's *one* report summarising recent incidents, mainly of Muslim rock-throwings at Jews in cars (and these are not pebbles, these are rocks big enough to kill or stun a person if they connect, and if that person is driving a car, then imagine what may happen next).

http://thisongoingwar.blogspot.com.au/2012/11/2-nov-12-scenes-from-front-lines.html

Friday, November 02, 2012
2-Nov-12: Scenes from the front lines, courtesy of the Tayar Report

And see here:

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/161960#.UKBwmq68seU

"A Palestinian Authority Arab [sic: Arab Muslim - dda] terrorist attacked a Jewish woman Sunday afternoon in the Jerusalem neighborhood of French Hill. The attacker struck as the 30-year-old woman who sat in her car near the fence of a school waiting with her two young children for her husband while he was in the school. He yanked open the car door, brandishing a knife and stabbed the young mother in the face. It is believed he was trying to hijack the car..".

"PA Arabs [sic: arab Muslims] also attacked Israeli motorists as they drove Sunday by the Jewish village of Negohot in the Hevron Hills, according to YeshaNews.

" In what has become known as road terror attacks, the Arabs [sic: Arab Muslims - dda] were hurling rocks at cars as they drove close to the village. One of the cars sustained several direct hits and was damaged in the attack, but the driver and passengers were not physically injured. Such attacks are intended to kill by causing the driver to lose control of the vehicle. The car then crashes or slows down enough to allow attackers to attack their victims directly....".

(The Muslims have scored at least two 'kills' by this method; a Jewish man was hit by a rock, his car crashed and he and his baby son were killed).

And there have been stabbing attacks, quite a few, in Jerusalem, none of them filtering through to our press. For example:

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/161647#.UJl_mq68seU

'Arabs Stab 35 Year old Man in Jerusalem'. (i.e. 'Arab Muslims Back-Stab Jewish Man in Jerusalem').

More, on the sort of thing the local Arab Muslim fifth columnists are up to in Jerusalem. Suburban Jihad. Arson, among other things.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/161880#.UJzyNa68seU

Exclusive Video: Arabs Torch Jewish Neighbors' Cars

'Chernovsky described daily harrassment by Arab (that is, Arab Muslim - dda) neighbors. "They constantly throw rocks at us in the wadi. All the time. Children aged 8 or 9 pelt us with rocks and above them, the Border Police stand there and they curse and laugh at them.

They put a new loudspeaker on the mosque and we hear it as if it is inside our home.

They set off fireworks at 11 pm or 12 midnight. It's impossible to live here.

"They threw a rock at my wife's car when she was inside with two grandmothers.

"Then on March 8, international women's day, they gave her a 'gift' and burned her car."...

"These guys are maybe 18 or 20 and they escape into the village. And if police try to go into the village, it is like Gaza. Every police car that goes in is pelted with a hail of rocks."...

In addition to dumbledoresarmy's well thought out answer, I would add, Israeli army still does surveillance for terrorists in "West Bank." From the standpoint of the United Nations, it is considered "occupied" territory because the army is there or right at hand, arresting and rounding up jihadists and terror cells. Not so Gaza. Israel withdrew entirely from Gaza, military and all. Oddly enough many still consider Gaza occupied territory because of Israel's partial blockade against the transfer of weapons to the area.

That too.

More crap from https://me.yahoo.com/a/jn3RbDthtvWVAf4SjINGi9CXvxDuiL5_YGM-#76700:

...Ditto Iran, which desperately needs a 'Wag the Dog'-type war, to distract its population from dissent and a tanking economy.
........................

As though the Islamic Republic of Iran has no interest in destroying Jewish Israel, but only considers this a way to distract the population from economic troubles. Right.

More:

The IDF can not effectively extirpate the Hamas and Hezbollah threat without massive civilian casualties, and loss of troops.
........................

So, due to Hamas putting their own civilians in harm's way, Israel should not be allowed to defend herself at all...

More:

Though a lot of the chest-beater crowd here (most of who, I suspect, are not Israelis, nor even Jewish) thinks otherwise, this conflict is not militarily solvable. Israel has to withdraw from Gaza and Palestine...
........................

Israel withdrew completely from Gaza in 2005. That is, in fact, why the whole of Gaza today serves as one big launch site for Jihad against Israel.

More:

...a robust, Security Council-lead peacekeeping force has to occupy the country, secure the borders and evict foreign Islamist elements, and establish a secular Palestinian state with a security apparatus capable of policing the country.
........................

Ah, right. And who would provide that? The United Nations? They have proven completely unable to police Jihadists there—even assuming this was ever a goal of theirs. Just look to UN failures in southern Lebanon.

And positing the possibility of creating a secure secular state in Dar-al-Islam is absurd, in any case. The West couldn't do that in Afghanistan or Iraq, either. Islam simply won't allow any such creation.

More:

A stateless and angry population in Palestinian territories is the reason why foreign Islamists are now using the land and population as rocket launching pads and human shields.
........................

Lots of crap here. Firstly, claiming that the Jihad against Israel is caused by the anger of "Palestinians" being 'stateless'—as though the desire to destroy Israel had nothing to do with it.

And then also, his spurious claim that it is only 'foreign elements' who want to wage war against Israel, when local Muslims have been targeting Israel for decades now, and both Fatah and Hamas make clear their goal to "drive Israel into the sea".

But this creep's main point—one he has been spamming around the threads at Jihad Watch, is this:

This means that both sides should be forced to submit to a Western-imposed settlement. Otherwise, we need to wash our hands of this mess.
........................

In other words, he is urging—as he has so many times before—that the West abandon civilized Israel to the ravages of the Muslim horde that would destroy her and slaughter her people. Disgusting.

Even the false god of the Muslims declared that: cf. Koran, chapter 17:100-104 (though some artful Muslims may try to argue that the "Israel" referred to there refers to the "true Jews" who followed "Allah's Guidance" rather than the "corrupted Torah").

Good Lord, who are all these https://yahoos?

"Though a lot of the chest-beater crowd here (most of who, I suspect, are not Israelis, nor even Jewish) thinks otherwise, this conflict is not militarily solvable."

Nothing in life is "solvable". But many things are manageable. Next week, I'll teach you about the Birds & the Bees.

"Israel has to withdraw from Gaza and Palestine..."

That's a mighty trick -- to withdraw from an imaginary place, like the Antipodes, or Atlantis, or... "Palestine".

"...and a robust, Security Council-lead peacekeeping force has to occupy the country, secure the borders and evict foreign Islamist elements, and establish a secular Palestinian state with a security apparatus capable of policing the country."

Wow. Hey, folks, say hello to Zbigniew Brzezinski. I didn't know he read Jihad Watch, much less deigned to sully his hands commenting here.

Perhaps there are specific geographical institutional reasons why Israel has better control over the West Bank, thereby minimizing the "jihad impulse" that would otherwise flare up in that region.

You wrote, among other lies: 'Israel is critically dependent on foreign aid, especially from the U.S.'

No, she isn't! GDP at 245 billion $, oil and gas fields currently being developed onland and in the Med.

Israel is rich in wealth, and intelligent, civilized people.

You're a clown!

You're a clown in the sense that you absolutely refuse to listen to the facts.

You wrote,once again: 'Israel can NOT survive without foreign aid.'

This is palpably false. Israel's foreign aid amounts to a mere 3% of its GDP. Israel's GDP over the last couple of years has been around 245 billion dollars. Israel is rich!

Israel also recycles around 75% of her waste water, her Arab neighbours around 10-12%. So, Israel is leading the world's technological know-how on water recycling - very important when you live in the arid Middle East!

So, they are resourceful and intelligent.

You are talking through your butt, imagining that we will fall for your propoganda. It won't work, you clown!

Stunned silence....

A. That's just plain brilliant.
B. You're making me look bad.

That one doesn't seem to be in the Protocols. Can I claim that idea as my own when I take it up with the Elders?

BTW, you know what happens to people who make us look bad...

,-)

You have the patience of Job.

Some of the most outspoken JW regulars have allowed their understandable antipathy towrds Islam to distort their attitudes regarding the Arabs living on land that was demarcated by the UN as a state for indigenous Arab/ Palestinian people. These often obnoxious ranters lose sight of the fact that the Arabs/Palestinians have an indisputable right to a state notwithstanding the despicable military attacks against Israel carried out by the fanatic elements of the Arab/Muslim world.

It is precisely because of Israel's encroachment on the land designated as the Arab/Palestine state that the Islamic fanatics are able to paint themselves as freedom fighters and even garner sympathy, if not outright support, of non-Islamic entities throughout the world.

Israel needs to stop dilly-dallying about the creation of Palestiian statehood on the west bank approximating the 1967 borders. The US must condition continuing aid on concrete steps taken by Israel to set in motion creation of a state for Palestinains on the west bank and perhaps even a second separate Arab state consisting of Gaza. The inhabitants of the west bank and Gaza can vote on such a 3 state solution.

Let's not let our condemnation of the supremacist, barbaric Islamic ideology cause us to ignor geopolitical realities.

You wrote: 'It is precisely because of Israel's encroachment on the land designated as the Arab/Palestine state that the Islamic fanatics are able to paint themselves as freedom fighters...'

The State of Israel comprises one-tenth of 1% of all the land in the Middle East. It is a tiny, tiny sliver of land next to the Med.
So, what's all this nonsense about 'encroaching' on land that doesn't belong to her?

And if anyone digs around anywhere in this land, they will find evidence of Jewish settlement for the last 2 to 3,000 years. And as so-called Palestine has never existed, your argument becomes totally surreal. Have you been tripping out on acid? You write like it.

Clown!

What absolute rot. The Arab state created at the same time as Israel was Jordan.

The idea that the local Arabs need another state carved out of Israel's land is complete bs.

This would once again render it impossible for Israel to defend her borders against homicidal Muslim aggression.

And Muslims have made it clear, in any case, that they have no desire to stop at the 1967 borders. After all, that didn't stop Jihadists from attacking Israel in 1967—or before.

Muslims intend nothing less than destroying Israel outright.

You wrote your usual quota of rubbish, but I think this one is the most amusing one:
'That the Jewish people occupied Judea and Samaria in biblical times does not legitimize a contemporary claim to the land that was demarcated as a Arab/Palestinian state by the UN.'

In that case, how much more tenuous is the claim that your desert bandit prophet had a dream, just a dream, of travelling on my back to 'the far mosque', and based on this dream, Muslims claim Al Aqsa for their own.

The level to which you are blind to the folly of Islam's way of seeing the world is stunning!

Yes, you are a red-nosed, baggy-trousered, wire-wigged clown!

"What absolute rot. The Arab state was created at the same time that Israel was Jordan."
_______________________________________

This. As usual from GI.

"Palestinians" are Trans-Jordanians.

___________________________________

That's it, and that's all. Nothing less and nothing more.

Ah. Another leftard moron who hates and fears free speech. **So** annoying that you can't control everyone, isn't it !

"You make a strong case for closer moderation of comments."
___________

Get your own blog, Mr. Moderator.

Based on whose criteria? Yours?

You're a red-nosed, baggy-trousered wire-wigged clown!

Yep, he should buzz off and start his own blog.

Frankly, I find the comments section at jihadwatch quite distinctive.

it is far more civil than other places I have encountered in cyberspace.

The intellectual standard of debate here and the 'reading capacity' demanded of our posters and lurkers is generally very high compared to that found at other locations I've visited.

In general, jihadwatchers don't waste time and energy on random obscenities (reserving them for those occasions when some absolutely ghastly instance of pure Mohammedan evil causes people to 'see red') jihadwatch is suitable for grandma to read, and indeed, there are grandmas and grandpas posting here.

And when YGM complains about this site being 'rabidly pro-Israel', I'd say that what he really means is that the routine, hair-raising and nauseating Jew-hatred that one can commonly find *all over* the comments sections to Israel-related blog entries, op eds and news reports in mainstream British news sites, say, or in the comments to Israel-related reports on yahoo news, is pretty much absent here...and when Jew-hatred (whether openly and shamelessly displayed or half-hidden behind various flimsy and ill-fitting fig-leaves) does appear, the regulars simply *pounce* on it and give it a thrashing.

On other sites, the Jew-haters with all their nonsense and lies are sometimes a tolerated majority; here, they are a *minority* - who will be seized and frog-marched to the exit of the premises, if they insist on climbing up on the table in the middle of the room and indulging in a wild-eyed rant once too often - and maybe YGM doesn't like that.

Depends.

There are a great many people, including lots and lots of Jews, and including my own Aussie Prime Minister, who still support the 'land for peace' 'two state solution' idea, and are not Jew haters but, merely, uninformed or else in denial: people who either haven't figured out that what's going on is a classic Jihad, or else 'know' at some subconscious level, but are in denial about it.

I don't think YGM is in that category of those who are either a/ uninformed or b/ in denial.

He's something else, something a lot nastier.

I've been reading and posting at this forum for five years now, and I have also, over time, read my way (I am a 'speed reader', or was until I had to have a cataract op) through pretty much the whole of the archives.

I've read *all sorts* and flavours of comments. After a while you develop a sort of 'ear' for style and tone.

YGM 76700 I do not trust, not at all, at all, at all.

I'm not so sure about the 'overwhelming majority'.

And I do think that up till now, many really have been too busy surviving, and / or nation building, to do their homework on Islam; and many others, though at some subliminal level they sense there is something very very dark on the horizon, *have* been in denial - it is possible to be very intelligent, and very well educated, and to be totally in denial about something, just ask any psychologist - about the full, awful reality that they are surrounded by death cultists who view them as Designated Prey. That the entire Ummah is gunning for them.

But I think that is about to change.

I think that Israel is heading toward a paradigm shift. They really are a very small country. Easier to turn a tugboat than to turn the Queen Mary.

And the writings of people like Bat Yeor, and Mr Spencer, and others, *are* percolating through. *Many* Israelis (and Jews of the diaspora, who have contact with Israel) have posted here since the beginning of this forum; quite probably many more have *lurked* here. Every now and again, I come across an Israeli blog with jihadwatch on the blogroll.

The word is getting out. The fog, the confusion engendered by the Mohammedan goodcop/ badcop Fast Jihad/ Slow Jihad whipsaw technique, is dissipating.

I have been reading at various Israeli media outlets and reading the talkbacks there - mostly from Israelis - since 2006 and the Hezbollah-Israel war.

I have noticed a perceptible 'sea change' in the comments posted by those who identify themselves as Jews and Israelis, as well as by those who identify as non-Jewish. More and more of them are showing familiarity with the texts of Islam, and the history of Muslim imperialism, and with words like 'jihad' and 'dhimmi', 'hudna' and 'taqiyya'.

I have also been reading a number of different Israeli English-language blogs . There, too, there is a shift in awareness.

Wait and see.

When Israel 'flips' - when enough of her citizens realize, as many already have, that their war of self-defence against the Jihad waged by the Ummah via its local proxies is a milhemet mitzvah, 'an Obligatory War', and that there Is *no* concession they can make, *nothing* they can give to the local Muslims, that will *ever* bring an end to the genocidal jihad - then the Mohammedans in and around Israel are in for one hell of a shock.

"Faced with the choice between changing ones mind and proving there's no need to do so, most people get busy on the proof."
John Kenneth Galbraith

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-11-20/seven-truths-about-israel-hamas-and-violence.html

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-11-20/seven-truths-about-israel-hamas-and-violence.html