Rabbi: Islamization of Europe a good thing

He may get what he wishes for, and then be sorry he wished for it. "'Islamization of Europe a good thing,'" by Kobi Nahshoni for Ynet News, November 11 (thanks to dontblametheswedes):

As concerns grow over the increasing number of Muslims in Europe, it appears not everyone is bothered by the issue, including an Israeli rabbi who even welcomes the phenomenon.

Rabbi Baruch Efrati, a yeshiva head and community rabbi in the West Bank settlement of Efrat, believes that the Islamization of Europe is actually a good thing.

"With the help of God, the gentiles there will adopt a healthier life with a lot of modesty and integrity, and not like the hypocritical Christianity which appears pure but is fundamentally corrupt," he explained.

Rabbi Efrati was asked to discuss the issue by an oriental studies student, who inquired on Judaism's stand toward the process Europe has been going through in recent years.

Following the election of a hijab-wearing Muslim woman as the mayor of the Bosnian city of Visoko for the first time in continent's history, the student asked the rabbi on the Kipa website: "How do we fight the Islamization of Europe and return it to the hands of Christians and moderates?"

Efrati wrote in response that the Islamization of Europe was better than a Christian Europe for ethical and theological reasons – as a punishment against Christians for persecuting the Jews and the fact that Christianity, as opposed to Islam, is considered "idolatry" from a halachic point of view.

"Jews should rejoice at the fact that Christian Europe is losing its identity as a punishment for what it did to us for the hundreds of years were in exile there," the rabbi explained as the ethical reason for favoring Muslims, quoting shocking descriptions from the Rishonim literature (written by leading rabbis who lived during the 11th to 15th centuries) about pogroms and mass murders committed by Christians against Jews.

"We will never forgive Europe's Christians for slaughtering millions of our children, women and elderly… Not just in the recent Holocaust, but throughout the generations, in a consistent manner which characterizes all factions of hypocritical Christianity…

"A now, Europe is losing its identity in favor of another people and another religion, and there will be no remnants and survivors from the impurity of Christianity, which shed a lot of blood it won't be able to atone for."

'Islam a relatively honest religion'

The theological reason, according to Rabbi Efrati, is that Christianity – which he sees as idolatry – has a tendency to "destroy normal life and abstain from it on the one hand, while losing modesty on the other hand," as it "ranges between radical monasticism to radical Western licentiousness."

Islam, the rabbi added, is "a religion which misjudges its prophets but is relatively honest. It educates a bit more for a stable life of marriage and creation, where there is certain modesty and respect for God."

Efrati ruled, therefore, that "even if we are in a major war with the region's Arabs over the Land of Israel, Islam is still much better as a gentile culture than Christianity."

He added, however, that Jews must pray that the Islamization of most of Europe will not harm the people of Israel.

Historian Daniel Jonah Goldhagen minces no words: “The main responsibility for producing the all-time leading Western hatred [of Jews] lies with Christianity. More specifically, with the Catholic Church.”

However, Rabbi David G. Dalin, a historian of the Catholic Church’s relations with the Jews, says this is “bad history and bad scholarship.” Malcolm Hay, who chronicles in searing detail the mistreatment Jews suffered in Europe at the hands of Christians, notes also that the most basic right, the right to live, was “one which no Pope, no Catholic theologian, has ever denied to the Jews—a right which no ruler in Christendom ever denied to them until the advent of Adolf Hitler.” Clearly, however, the Nazis sought justification for their actions from Christian anti-Semitism. Nazi propagandist Julius Streicher applied Jesus’s words in John 8:44 to all Jews, calling for “the extermination of that people whose father is the devil,” and the Nazis reprinted John Chrysostom’s words in support of their activities. There is nevertheless a large gulf between the anti-Judaism of Chrysostom and other Christian leaders, and that of the Nazis, who were for the most part anti-Christian and certainly anti-Catholic. Their anti-Semitism was rooted in Darwinian racial theories that posited the Aryans as the master race and the Jews as untermenschen.

Still, there is no doubt that the history of Jews in Christian Europe is largely marked by mistreatment, abuse, discrimination, and worse. A 1998 Vatican document on the Holocaust noted that “the history of relations between Jews and Christians is a tormented one. His Holiness Pope John Paul II has recognized this fact in his repeated appeals to Catholics to see where we stand with regard to our relations with the Jewish people. In effect, the balance of these relations over two thousand years has been quite negative.” Some of that negativity came from John Paul’s medieval predecessors. Pope Zachary (741-752) reaffirmed a prohibition on intermarriage. Leo VII (936-939) directed the archbishop of Mainz to expel Jews who refused to convert to Christianity from cities within his diocese. Gregory VII (1073-1085) forbade Jews to hold authority over Christians.

The Fourth Lateran Council decreed in 1215 that Jews must wear distinctive garb—a directive initially emphasized, then suspended, then insisted upon again by Pope Honorius III (1216-1227). Gregory IX (1227-1241) led a campaign against Jewish books that led to a massive book-burning in Paris. Nicholas III (1277-1280) required Jews to assemble to hear proselytizing sermons and ordered that those who had been baptized but then returned to Judaism be “turned over to the secular power”—which meant almost certain execution. Honorius IV (1285-1287) wrote a letter to the English bishops warning them about Jewish efforts to convert Christians—which ultimately led to the expulsion of the Jews from England. John XXII (1316-1334) resumed the campaign against Jewish books, ordering the Talmud suppressed.

Centuries later, in 1858, police of the Papal States seized a six-year-old Jewish boy, Edgardo Mortara, from his family because a Catholic servant girl who worked for the family had baptized him. Pope Pius IX (1846-1878) refused numerous entreaties to return the boy to his family. Mortara became a Catholic priest and died in 1940. Many consider the incident one of the chief obstacles to the canonization of Pius IX.

But as Dalin illustrates, the papal record is not monochromatic: “The historical fact is that popes have often spoken out in defense of the Jews, have protected them during times of persecution and pogroms, and have protected their right to worship freely in their synagogues. Popes have traditionally defended Jews from wild anti-Semitic allegations. Popes regularly condemned anti-Semites who sought to incite violence against Jews.”

This is not, as some might think, a strictly modern phenomenon. For instance, Pope Gregory I (590-604), who wrote harshly, in Chrysostom’s vein, of the Jews’ rejection of Christ, nevertheless issued an edict dictating that Jews “should have no infringement of their rights. … We forbid to vilify the Jews. We allow them to live as Romans and to have full authority over their possessions.” When a bishop in Palermo seized a synagogue and converted it into a church, the building could not be returned to its former owner because it had now been consecrated; however, Gregory ordered the bishop to pay the owners a fair price, so that the Jews “should in no way appear to be oppressed, or to suffer an injustice.” He also forbade forced conversion of Jews, a prohibition later repeated by Gregory IV (827-844).

Pope Gregory I’s directives formed the basis of the Jews’ status in Western Europe for a considerable time thereafter. Pope Alexander II (1061-1073) commended bishops in Narbonne and Spain for protecting Jews from attacks by Christians. When would-be Crusaders massacred Jews in Speyer, Worms, Mainz, Cologne, and elsewhere before the First Crusade, it is noteworthy that local bishops often acted to end these slaughters. Pope Calixtus II (1119-1124) thereafter reaffirmed Gregory’s prohibition of attacks on Jews, and also forbade forced conversion and attacks on synagogues. Still, however, such attacks continued during the Second Crusade. Bernard of Clairvaux declared that “whoever touches a Jew so as to lay hands on his life, does something as sinful as if he laid hands on the Lord himself!” Yet in 1147, Crusaders attacked the Jews of Wurzburg not long after Bernard had left the area.

Such attacks were fueled by Christian polemics, such as that of French diplomat and theologian Peter of Blois, whose Against the Perfidious Jews depicted the Jews as thoroughly debased and dehumanized. Even Bernard and other Christian notables preached sermons in which the Jews were depicted as savage, subhuman beasts. Bishop of Lincoln Robert Grosseteste was no innovator when he wrote: “As murderers of the Lord, as still blaspheming Christ, and mocking his passion, [Jews] were to be in captivity to the princes of the earth.” Yet he added a backhanded affirmation of the unlawfulness of killing them: “As they have the brand of Cain, and are condemned to wander over the face of the earth, so were they to have the privilege of Cain, that no one was to kill them.”

The popes also held fast against forced conversions and attacks on the Jews. Pope Innocent III (1198-1216), although he condemned Jews as “the sons of the crucifiers, against whom to this day the blood cries to the Father’s ears,” stated:

For we make the law that no Christian compel them, unwilling or refusing, by violence to come to baptism. Too, no Christian ought to presume…wickedly to injure their persons, or with violence to take away their property, or to change the good customs which they have had until now in whatever region they inhabit.

Besides, in the celebration of their own festivals, no one ought to disturb them in any way, with clubs or stones, nor ought any one try to require from them or to extort from them services they do not owe, except for those they have been accustomed from times past to perform.

In addition to these, We decree…that no one ought to dare to mutilate or diminish a Jewish cemetery, nor, in order to get money, to exhume bodies once they have been buried.

Those who dared transgress these prohibitions were threatened with excommunication. Innocent also noted that Calixtus and four other popes had extended the same protections to the Jews. According to Dalin, “Calixtus’s defense of the Jews, with its promise of continuing papal protection, was reissued at least twenty-two times by successive popes between the twelfth and fifteenth centuries.”

Of course, this reissuing wouldn’t have been necessary if Jews were not continually being attacked in Europe. Many of these attacks centered around the blood libel, the contention that Jews killed Christian children and mixed their blood into their Passover matzoh. Pope Innocent IV (1243-1254) issued a strong denial of the blood libel, as did Gregory X (1271-1276), Martin V (1417-1431), and Sixtus IV (1471-1484). Paul III (1534-1549) denounced those who “pretend, in order to despoil them of their goods, that the Jews kill little children and drink their blood.” That this had to be repeated over several centuries testifies to the persistence of the libel in Christian Europe, but nevertheless, excommunication was consistently the penalty for those who spread such stories or victimized Jews on such a basis. And while many popes affirmed that the Jews must be protected, the crowned kings of Catholic Europe often took just the opposite view. A twelfth-century chronicler says of King Phillip of France: “He hated the Jews, and had heard many accusations against them, of blaspheming the name of Jesus Christ.”

Gregory X also affirmed the validity of Jewish testimony, declaring, “An accusation against Jews based solely on the testimony of Christians was invalid; Jewish witnesses must also appear.” Clement VI (1342-1352) defended Jews from charges that they were responsible for the Black Death; Boniface IX (1389-1404) granted full Roman citizenship to Jews; Martin V directed that “every Christian treat the Jews with a humane kindness” and forbade preachers “to preach against the Jews, to attempt to interrupt their normal relations with their neighbors, to infringe upon their religious rights, or to exclude them from normal activities (including attendance at universities).” He also reaffirmed the repudiation of the blood libel.

Leo X (1513-1521) ordered the entire Talmud to be printed by a Christian printer in Rome so as to discourage anti-Semitic rumors about its contents. Clement VII (1523-1534) commissioned a new translation of the Old Testament from Hebrew into Latin, to be completed by six Christians and six Jews working together.

The catechism of the Council of Trent, which was first published in 1566, denies that the Jews bear responsibility for the crucifixion of Christ:

Christ not only suffered for sinners, but even for those who were the very authors and ministers of all the torments He endured. … In this guilt are involved all those who fall frequently into sin; for, as our sins consigned Christ the Lord to the death of the cross.…This guilt seems more enormous in us than in the Jews, since according to the testimony of the same apostle: If they had known it, they would never have crucified the Lord of glory; while we, on the contrary, professing to know Him, yet denying Him by our actions, seem in some sort to lay violent hands on Him. … Furthermore men of all ranks and conditions were gathered together against the Lord, and against His Christ. Gentiles and Jews were the advisers, the authors, the ministers of His Passion: Judas betrayed Him, Peter denied Him, all the rest deserted Him.
Innocent X (1644-1655) and Benedict XIV (1740-1758) both worked to end the blood libel and the persecution of Jews in Poland. Leo XIII spoke out in defense of Alfred Dreyfus, a French military officer wrongly accused of treason in a notorious case. Pius X (1903-1914) and Benedict XV (1914-1922) acted against anti-Semitism in Italian politics and media.

It was thus not without justification that Pius XI (1922-1939) was able to write in 1928: “Moved by this Christian charity, the Holy See has always protected this people [the Jews] against unjust vexations, and just as it reprobates all rancour and conflicts between peoples, it particularly condemns unreservedly hatred against the people once chosen by God: the hatred that commonly goes by the name of anti-Semitism.” Pius XI used his encyclical letter Mit Brennender Sorge—pointedly written in German instead of Latin, and directed to the German bishops—to condemn the anti-Semitism of the Nazi regime. The Nazis, in response, forbade its publication in Germany and denounced Pius XI as half-Jewish. That encyclical, drafted by Cardinal Eugenio Pacelli, who two years later became Pope Pius XII, declared:

Whoever exalts race, or the people, or the State, or a particular form of State, or the depositories of power, or any other fundamental value of the human community—however necessary and honorable be their function in worldly things—whoever raises these notions above their standard value and divinizes them to an idolatrous level, distorts and perverts an order of the world planned and created by God; he is far from the true faith in God and from the concept of life which that faith upholds.

When Vienna’s Cardinal Innitzer rang the city’s church bells to celebrate Hitler’s entry into the city after the Anchluss in 1938, Pius called Innitzer to Rome and rebuked him—and, according to historian Michael Phayer, had the rebuke “communicated through diplomatic channels to the United States so that world governments would know where the Vatican stood regarding Hitler’s Germany.” On September 6, 1938, he told a group of pilgrims from Belgium that “anti-Semitism is inadmissible; spiritually, we are all Semites.”

Pius XII's (1939-1958) record as Pope during World War II is controversial, but many -- including Dalin -- defend his record vis-a-vis the Jews. And in 1965, the Second Vatican Council definitively rejected the idea that the Jews were responsible for the death of Christ, and all anti-Semitism:

True, the Jewish authorities and those who followed their lead pressed for the death of Christ; still, what happened in His passion cannot be charged against all the Jews, without distinction, then alive, nor against the Jews of today. Although the Church is the new people of God, the Jews should not be presented as rejected or accursed by God, as if this followed from the Holy Scriptures.

Furthermore, in her rejection of every persecution against any man, the Church, mindful of the patrimony she shares with the Jews and moved not by political reasons but by the Gospel’s spiritual love, decries hatred, persecutions, displays of anti-Semitism, directed against Jews at any time and by anyone.

Pope John Paul II likewise said in 2000: “We hope that the Jewish people will acknowledge that the Church utterly condemns anti-Semitism and every form of racism as being altogether opposed to the principles of Christianity. We must work together to build a future in which there will be no more anti-Judaism among Christians or anti-Christian sentiment among Jews.” When he became pope in 2005 Benedict XVI extended greetings to his “brothers and sisters of the Jewish people, to whom we are joined by a great spiritual heritage, rooted in God’s irrevocable promises.”

Noting that anti-Semitic attitudes still linger today among Orthodox Christians, in April 2007 a group of twelve priests led by Fr. Innokenty Pavlov of the Biblical Theological Institute in Moscow called for liturgical reform and renunciation of the idea that Christians have replaced Jews as God’s chosen people—in defiance of St. Paul’s statement that “the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.” (Romans 11:29) While some of the foremost Orthodox thinkers of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, notably Vladimir Soloviev and Sergiy Bulgakov, loved and respected Jews, anti-Semitism still exists among Orthodox Christians. Said Pavlov: “We came to the firm belief that it is high time for the Orthodox Church to correct its attitude toward Jews and Judaism.”

While Christian anti-Semitism has been minimized, it still exists, particularly in the Middle East where some Christians have absorbed the anti-Semitism of the Islamic culture that surrounds them. But the record of history, the official teaching of the Catholic Church (as seen in the Second Vatican Council and other documents and papal statements), and the actions of Christians around the world today all illustrate that anti-Semitism is not intrinsic to Christianity.

Yet anti-Semitism in the Islamic world has often been attributed to the baneful influence of Christianity. Many analysts assert that the Islamic designation of Jews (as well as Christians) as “People of the Book” indicates a higher level of respect for them than was manifested by Christians who derided Jews as bestial “Christ-killers.” Journalist Lawrence Wright asserts in this vein in The Looming Tower: Al-Qaeda and the Road to 9/11:

Until the end of World War II … Jews lived safely—although submissively—under Muslim rule for 1,200 years, enjoying full religious freedom; but in the 1930s, Nazi propaganda on Arabic-language shortwave radio, coupled with slanders by Christian missionaries in the region, infected the area with this ancient Western prejudice [anti-Semitism]. After the war, Cairo became a sanctuary for Nazis, who advised the military and the government. The rise of the Islamist movement coincided with the decline of fascism, but they overlapped in Egypt, and the germ passed into a new carrier.

This is a common view, but in reality there is a strong native strain of anti-Semitism in Islam, which is rooted in the Qur’an. The Muslim holy book contains a great deal of material that forms the foundation for a hatred of Jews that exists independently of the Christian variety. It is also, in many ways, more virulent and harder to eradicate. The Qur’an portrays the Jews as the craftiest, most persistent, and most implacable enemies of the Muslims—and there is no Muslim equivalent of the Second Vatican Council to mitigate against destructive interpretations. The Qur’anic material on the Jews remains the prism through which far too many Muslims see the Israeli-Palestinian conflict—and Jews in general—to this day.

A vivid illustration of this came in 2004 from Islam Online, a website founded by, among others, the internationally influential Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi in 1997. Although al-Qaradawi has won praise from Islamic scholar John Esposito for engaging in a “reformist interpretation of Islam and its relationship to democracy, pluralism, and human rights,” that “reformist” impulse doesn’t seem to carry over to his view of Jews (he has justified suicide bombings against Israeli civilians), or the view of them he has allowed to be published on Islam Online. In 2004 the site posted an article titled “Jews as Depicted in the Qur’an,” in which Sheikh ‘Atiyyah Saqr, the former head of the Fatwa Committee at the most respected institution in Sunni Islam, Al-Azhar University in Cairo, depicts Jews in a chillingly negative light, illustrated with abundant quotations from the Qur’an. Among other charges he levels at the Jews, Saqr says that they “used to fabricate things and falsely ascribe them to Allah”; they “love to listen to lies”; they disobey Allah and ignore his commands; they wish “evil for people” and try to “mislead them”; and they “feel pain to see others in happiness and are gleeful when others are afflicted with a calamity.” He adds that “it is easy for them to slay people and kill innocents,” for “they are merciless and heartless.” And each charge he follows with Qur’anic citations.

Though he offers many examples of the alleged evil traits of the Jews supported by the Qur’an, Saqr doesn’t mention the notorious Qur’anic passages that depict an angry Allah transforming Jews into apes and pigs: 2:63–66; 5:59–60; and 7:166. The first of those passages depicts Allah telling the Jews who “profaned the Sabbath”: “Be as apes despicable!” It goes on to say that these accursed ones serve “as a warning example for their time and for all times to come.” The second has Allah directing Muhammad to remind the “People of the Book” about “those who incurred the curse of Allah and His wrath, those of whom some He transformed into apes and swine, those who worshipped evil.” The third essentially repeats this, saying of the Sabbath-breaking Jews that when “in their insolence they transgressed (all) prohibitions,” Allah said to them, “Be ye apes, despised and rejected.”

In traditional Islamic theology these passages have not been considered to apply to all Jews. The classic Qur’anic commentator Isma’il bin ‘Amr bin Kathir al Dimashqi (Ibn Kathir), whose commentary is widely distributed and respected among Muslims today, quotes earlier authorities saying that “those who violated the sanctity of the Sabbath were turned into monkeys, then they perished without offspring,” and that they “only lived on the earth for three days, for no transformed person ever lives more than three days.” While parts of the Qur’an are hostile to the Jews, Muhammad’s curse, in this case, was limited to these Sabbath-breakers, not to all Jews.

However, that hasn’t stopped contemporary jihadists from frequently referring to Jews as the “descendants of apes and swine.” The implication is that today’s Jews are bestial in character and are the enemies of Allah, just as the Sabbath-breakers were. The grand sheikh of Al-Azhar, Muhammad Sayyid Tantawi, the most respected cleric in the world among Sunni Muslims today, has called Jews “the enemies of Allah, descendants of apes and pigs.” Saudi sheikh Abd al-Rahman al-Sudayyis, imam of the principal mosque in the holiest city in Islam, Mecca, said in a sermon that Jews are “the scum of the human race, the rats of the world, the violators of pacts and agreements, the murderers of the prophets, and the offspring of apes and pigs.”

Another Saudi sheikh, Ba’d bin Abdallah al-Ajameh al-Ghamidi, made the connection explicit: “The current behavior of the brothers of apes and pigs, their treachery, violation of agreements, and defiling of holy places … is connected with the deeds of their forefathers during the early period of Islam—which proves the great similarity between all the Jews living today and the Jews who lived at the dawn of Islam.” A 1996 Hamas publication says that today’s Jews are bestial in spirit, and this is a manifestation of the punishment of their forefathers. In January 2007, Palestinian Authority president Mahmoud Abbas stated, “The sons of Israel are mentioned as those who are corrupting humanity on earth,” referring to Qur’an 5:64.

All this shows that leading Muslim authorities approach the Qur’an not as a document rooted in history, but as a blueprint for understanding the world today. Likewise, Sheikh ‘Atiyyah Saqr describes the Qur’anic teachings that because Jews “revolted against the Divine ordinances … they found no warm reception in all countries where they tried to reside. Rather, they would either be driven out or live in isolation.” Moreover, “Almighty Allah told us that He’d send to them people who’d pour on them rain of severe punishment that would last till the Day of Resurrection.” Then comes a threat: “All this gives us glad tidings of the coming victory of Muslims over them once Muslims stick to strong faith and belief in Allah and adopt the modern means of technology.” The “rain of severe punishment” resulting from adoption of the “modern means of technology” may come to fruition in Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad’s nuclear ambitions and implacable hostility to Israel. In January 2007 he warned that the “demise” of the “Zionist regime” is “imminent.” Does he plan to bring about that demise with a nuclear “rain of severe punishment”?

In the 1970s Sheikh Tantawi wrote a 700-page treatise, Jews in the Qur’an and the Traditions, in which he concluded:

[The] Qur’an describes the Jews with their own particular degenerate characteristics, i.e. killing the prophets of Allah, corrupting His words by putting them in the wrong places, consuming the people’s wealth frivolously, refusal to distance themselves from the evil they do, and other ugly characteristics caused by their deep-rooted lasciviousness … only a minority of the Jews keep their word. … [A]ll Jews are not the same. The good ones become Muslims, the bad ones do not.

Nor is this just a modern view. The classic Qur’anic commentators not only do not mitigate the Qur’an’s words against Jews, but instead add fuel to the fire. Ibn Kathir explained Qur’an 2:61 (“They were covered with humiliation and misery; they drew on themselves the wrath of Allah”) this way: “This Ayah [verse] indicates that the Children of Israel were plagued with humiliation, and that this will continue, meaning that it will never cease. They will continue to suffer humiliation at the hands of all who interact with them, along with the disgrace that they feel inwardly.” Another Middle Ages commentator of lingering influence, ‘Abdallah ibn ‘Umar al-Baidawi, explains the same verse this way: “The Jews are mostly humiliated and wretched either of their own accord, or out of coercion of the fear of having their jizya [punitive tax] doubled.”

Ibn Kathir notes Islamic traditions that predict that at the end of the world, “the Jews will support the Dajjal (False Messiah), and the Muslims, along with ‘Isa [Jesus], son of Mary, will kill the Jews.” The idea in Islam that the end times will be marked by Muslims killing Jews comes from the prophet Muhammad himself, who said, “The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. ‘O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him.’” This is, not unexpectedly, a favorite motif among contemporary jihadists. On March 30, 2007, a spokesman for Hamas, Dr. Ismail Radwan, said on Palestinian Authority television:

The Hour [Resurrection] will not take place until the Muslims fight the Jews and the Muslims kill them, and the rock and the tree will say: “Oh, Muslim, servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, kill him!”

We must remind our Arab and Muslim nation, its leaders and people, its scholars and students, remind them that Palestine and the Al Aqsa mosque will not be liberated through summits nor by international resolutions, but it will be liberated through the rifle. It will not be liberated through negotiations, but through the rifle, since this occupation knows no language but the language of force.… O Allah, strengthen Islam and Muslims, and bring victory to your Jihad-fighting worshipers, in Palestine and everywhere.… Allah take the oppressor Jews and Americans and their supporters!

The history of Jews who lived under Muslim rule is a more or less unbroken record of theologically sanctioned humiliation and wretchedness. Although, like the Christians, Jews were allowed to practice their religion within restrictions, they were seldom allowed to forget their humiliation. Although the strictness with which the laws of dhimmitude (the subservient status of Jews and Christians) were enforced varied, they were never abolished, and during times of relaxation the subject populations always lived in fear that they would be enforced with new stringency. Muslim rulers did not forget that the Qur’an mandates that both Jews and Christians must “feel themselves subdued.”

One notable instance is recounted by the Arab historian Phillip Hitti: “The caliph al-Mutawakkil in 850 and 854 decreed that Christians and Jews should affix wooden images of devils to their houses, level their graves even with the ground, wear outer garments of honey color, i.e. yellow, put two honey-colored patches on the clothes of their slaves, … and ride only on mules and asses with wooden saddles marked by two pomegranate-like balls on the cantle.” A millennium later, in 1888, little had changed. A Tunisian Jew noted:

The Jew is prohibited in this country to wear the same clothes as a Muslim and may not wear a red tarbush. He can be seen to bow down with his whole body to a Muslim child and permit him the traditional privilege of striking him in the face, a gesture that can prove to be of the gravest consequence. Indeed, the present writer has received such blows. In such matters the offenders act with complete impunity, for this has been the custom from time immemorial.

In 1291 Isaac ben Samuel, a noted Kabbalist and Palestinian Jew, sought refuge in a Christian-controlled area of Spain after the collapse of the last Crusader kingdom in the Levant. He explained, “For, in the eyes of the Muslims, the children of Israel are as open to abuse as an unprotected field. Even in their law and statutes they rule that the testimony of a Muslim is always to be believed against that of a Jew. For this reason our rabbis of blessed memory have said, ‘Rather beneath the yoke of Edom [Christendom] than that of Ishmael [Islam]. They [the rabbis] plead for mercy before the Holy One, Blessed be He, saying, ‘Master of the World, either let us live beneath Thy shadow or else beneath that of the children of Edom’ (Talmud, Gittin 17a).”

Ben Samuel’s choice of Christian Spain is paradoxical, as Muslim Spain was supposed to have been a famous exception to the oppression of Jews that prevailed elsewhere among both Muslims and Christians. Islamic apologist Karen Armstrong enunciates the common wisdom when she says that “until 1492, Jews and Christians lived peaceably and productively together in Muslim Spain—a coexistence that was impossible elsewhere in Europe.” Even the U.S. State Department has proclaimed that “during the Islamic period in Spain, Jews, Christians, and Muslims lived together in peace and mutual respect, creating a diverse society in which vibrant exchanges of ideas took place.”

Yet the philosopher Maimonides, a Jew who lived for a time in Muslim Spain and then fled that supposedly tolerant and pluralistic land, remarked, “You know, my brethren, that on account of our sins God has cast us into the midst of this people, the nation of Ishmael, who persecute us severely, and who devise ways to harm us and to debase us.…No nation has ever done more harm to Israel. None has matched it in debasing and humiliating us. None has been able to reduce us as they have.…We have borne their imposed degradation, their lies, and absurdities, which are beyond human power to bear.”
Notably, Maimonides directed that Jews could teach rabbinic law to Christians, but not to Muslims. For Muslims, he said, will interpret what they are taught “according to their erroneous principles and they will oppress us. [F]or this reason … they hate all [non-Muslims] who live among them.” But the Christians, he said, “admit that the text of the Torah, such as we have it, is intact”—as opposed to the Islamic view that the Jews and Christians have corrupted their scriptures. Christians, continued Maimonides, “do not find in their religious law any contradiction with ours.”

Even María Rosa Menocal, in her romantic and fantastic hagiography of Muslim Spain, The Ornament of the World, acknowledges the second-class status to which Jews and Christians were relegated there. “In return for this freedom of religious conscience the Peoples of the Book (pagans had no such privilege) were required to pay a special tax—no Muslims paid taxes—and to observe a number of restrictive regulations: Christians and Jews were prohibited from attempting to proselytize Muslims, from building new places of worship, from displaying crosses or ringing bells. In sum, they were forbidden most public displays of their religious rituals.”

According to historian Richard Fletcher, “Moorish Spain was not a tolerant and enlightened society even in its most cultivated epoch.” On December 30, 1066, about four thousand Jews in Granada were murdered by rioting Muslim mobs—more than would be killed in the Crusaders’ infamous Rhineland pogroms of the mid-twelfth century. What enraged the Granadan Muslims was the political power of the Jewish vizier Samuel ibn Naghrila and his son Joseph: the mob resented the fact that these men had authority over Muslims, which they saw as a “breach of sharia.” The mob was incited to kill the Jews by a poem composed by Muslim jurist Abu Ishaq: “I myself arrived in Granada and saw that these Jews were meddling in its affairs. … So hasten to slaughter them as a good work whereby you will earn God’s favor, and offer them up in sacrifice, a well-fattened ram.”

The mob heeded his call. A Muslim chronicler (and later sultan of Granada), ‘Abd Allah, said that “both the common people and the nobles were disgusted by the cunning of the Jews, the notorious changes they had brought in the order of things, and the positions they occupied in violation of their pact [of second-class status].” He recounted that the mob “put every Jew in the city to the sword and took vast quantities of their property.”

And so we see: in Britain, there were three times more anti-Semitic incidents in 2007 than there were in 1997. A December 2006 study, according to the Telegraph, determined that “in London and Manchester, where Muslims outnumber Jews by four to one, anti-Semitic offenses exceeded anti-Muslim offenses.” One rabbi was attacked in July 2006 by seven Pakistani Muslim teenagers, who shouted, “We are Pakistani, you are Jewish. We are going to kill you.” In Belgium in November 2006, according to Flanders News, “a group of young Turkish immigrants in the Limburg municipality of Beringen attacked a group of Jewish school children by throwing stones at them, shouting anti-Semitic slogans.” In summer 2006, after a Jewish man was assaulted in Oslo, Norwegian Jews were warned not to wear kippahs on the street, for fear they would be physically attacked.

And these are just a few recent examples of a long and ever lengthening string of such incidents. The European Union commissioned a report about the new rise of anti-Semitism in Europe in 2003, but buried it when its findings showed that anti-Semitic acts were largely the province of young Muslims. After an outcry, the report was released in 2004, but journalist Ambrose Evans-Pritchard noted that the results “had been consistently massaged by the EU watchdog to play down the role of North African youth.”

As time goes by, however, these new realities will be harder and harder to ignore.
The ultimate question regarding Christian and Islamic anti-Semitism is: given the choice, would Jews today prefer to live in a Christian-heritage nation or in an Islamic country?

| 59 Comments
del.icio.us | Digg this | Email | FaceBook | Twitter | Print | Tweet

59 Comments

| Leave a comment

It was the Jews that made the biggest blunder in history

They drove mohammed out of Mecca instead of killing him

It was the Jews that made the biggest blunder in history

They drove mohammed out of Mecca instead of killing him

I must congratulate the Jews for they certainly will get their wish fulfilled. Christianity will be the only monotheist that will completely disappear from the earth. When all has passed, the Jews will face Islam alone.

Eat, drink, and be merry.

From the article: "Rabbi Baruch Efrati, a yeshiva head and community rabbi in the West Bank settlement of Efrat, believes that the Islamization of Europe is actually a good thing."

Is this his unique view, or do other rabbis in the area also hold the same view?

What percentage of rabbis in other parts of the world hold his view? What about rabbis in America?

I read his rationale, but I think he is quite uninformed about the terror that Islam can inflict when it has grown strong enough to dominate a region.

we never forget the slaughetr millios of our people by christains.....
wait until the islamists take over. the number of people being slaughtered will be to the tune of tens of millions.
M

Christianity, unlike Islam, encourages self-examination and self-criticism. It also teaches universal brotherhood. While these ideals have often been transgressed in the extreme, they nonetheless stand in stark contrast to Islam's anti-reflective obduracy. The benighted and anti-speculative nature of Islam has mired it in a primitive and backward state.
As Robert has said, let's stop fighting the last war, join with whomever friends we can muster, and defeat reactionary Islam.

Efrati's postulate does not compute. If Christianity is corrupt, then it's corruption can be traced to historical man-made abominations, and not those found as mndates or indicative of elements of the Christian Testaments.

Though Efrati tries to legitimize Islam to a certain degree, the mis-appropriation of their own Islamic prophets Muhammad and Issa aside, how can he make the claim that the divine text of Islam, the Qur'an, as is presuppposed by Muslims, and which is ripe with overt, explicitly stated anti-Semitism, and Islam is a natural ally for Jews over Christianity?

Did this rabbi differentiate between the deities for Jews and Muslims? If not, how can he reconcile that assertion, that they share the same God?

'Islam is a relatively honest religion' Rabbi Baruch Efrati

Relatively honest...! Robbing caravans, Al Anfal, taqqiya, kitman ....

Yup, as honest as the day is long!

Clown!

Rabbi: Islamization of Europe a good thing
...........................

Well, yeah—if you're looking for oppression, murder, and outright genocide, then it's just great...

More:

"With the help of God, the gentiles there will adopt a healthier life with a lot of modesty and integrity, and not like the hypocritical Christianity which appears pure but is fundamentally corrupt," he explained.
...........................

Ah, yes—because Islam breeds such sparkling health—physical, cultural, and spiritiual...sarc/off.

Has this "West Bank" Rabbi ever actually looked at his Muslim "neighbors"—without his dhimmi blinders, that is? Seems not...

And his understanding of history, it seems, is just as bad. It's obvious that this Rabbi understands *nothing* about the terrible plight of Jews under dhimmitude.

More:

He added, however, that Jews must pray that the Islamization of most of Europe will not harm the people of Israel.
...........................

That's gonna take a whole heap of prayer...

I must congratulate the Jews?
Sorry my friend, this clown does not represent me. There are other so called rabbis kissing Ahmadinejad and calling for destruction of Israel. They don't represent me either. This guy has been known for his ridiculous ideas. Read this one for example: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4016144,00.html.

"I must congratulate the Jews?"
Sorry my friend, this clown does not represent me. There are other so called rabbis kissing Ahmadinejad and calling for destruction of Israel. They don't represent me either. This guy has been known for his ridiculous ideas. Read this one for example: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4016144,00.html.

Buraq, as a personal note about the historical facts herein reviewed, with which, naively, I was hardly familiar, are a worthy albeit substantially shameful revelation to me personally. At least, by personal quest, I have long known no nation or group of people is guiltless, of atrocities or wrongs, in history. But there are nations and groups who have soared beyond their wrongs, in history, some having matured well beyond them, save one, islam, which never ever awakened, nor can, by edict, because it was forever designed as a camoflaged gang, designed for the purpose of allowing warring criminal objectives, under the obfuscating cloak of religion.

In my maturation, I was scarcely exposed to anti-Semitism, not through religion, nor family, but with occasional nationality types, and a couple institutional types. It had made no sense to me, none, as the neighborhood I matured in was perhaps mostly Jewish, and I had a number of Jewish friends and acquaintences.

To the point of my reply: "if "'Islam is a relatively honest religion' Rabbi Baruch Efrati"

and

"The ultimate question regarding Christian and Islamic anti-Semitism is: given the choice, would Jews today prefer to live in a Christian-heritage nation or in an Islamic country?"

is ultimately the determinant matter, then the Rabbi should immediately move forthwith to his islamic country of choice, and open a synagogue there to enjoy all the benefits he declaims attributed to islamic 'integrity and honesty', right away! He may even pray that they 'will not hurt the person of Israel'

I'm sure any fully islamic nation would just love him with open arms! sarc-off

He has come to some irrational, mortally muddled conclusions, apparently from too many chavruta style seders, having taken him far from reality, and seems perhaps to be still arguing as such. Rabbi's reasonings and conclusions mirror some of those of muslim clerics, for complete speciousness.

If he does not wish to islamize himself, then he should shut up, retire, or get
"real world" "outside of a yeshiva style or any other college style" education and grow up! I.E. Smell the stench of islamic reality, not the joy of isolated chavruta.

Sheesh, hard not to say more.

Rabi says"Islam is an honest religion". So what the Jews are going through around the world at the hands of Muslims should be just and reasonable- what the Jews deserve as per this Rabi's words.

Frankly, some Jews enjoy flipping the Christians off, but I think Reb Efrati's views are very much in the minority.

Some of the most Orthodox Jews actually welcome oppression, because they believe it keeps Jews Jewish. I for one reject this masochistic streak in Judaism.

Maimonides taught, "Better under Esau's shadow than under Ishmael's.", meaning that Jews fare better living under Christian rule than under Muslim rule. He had the experience to know.

While there have been dire conflicts in the past between Christians and Jews, since the late 20th century relations have mostly been tolerant.

As for The Church, Pope John Paul was a sincere friend to the Jews, and Pope Benedict is at least no enemy. When Islam produces a leader we can call a sincere friend, then we can think about reconciliation.

Gunung Semeru wrote:

It was the Jews that made the biggest blunder in history

They drove mohammed out of Mecca instead of killing him
...............................

What rot. I was largely Muhammed's *own* tribe, the Quraysh, who drove him out of Mecca.

There were some Jews in Medina who thought welcoming Muhammed and his followers was a very bad idea, but their concerns didn't carry the day.

As soon as "the Prophet" had consolidated power there, he began exiling and then massacring Jewish tribes who didn't fall into line.

"French diplomat and theologian Peter of Blois, whose Against the Perfidious Jews depicted the Jews as thoroughly debased and dehumanized."

Hm, this sounds like a "Pedia"-ish sound bite rather than familiarity in this regard with primary sources and scholarly secondary studies. I suspect it's not so simple.

Honest? Has this rabbi not heard of taqiyya?

Well, speaking as a Christian, I do not see the modern West's embrace of every sexual perversion, its philosophic materialism, its complacency in the face of its own cultural breakdown, and a few other things as healthy, normal, or "liberated" (although I'm aware that there are those who'll disagree with me).

Since R. Efrati is on the West Bank, what is his take on the mindset of his numerous Muslim neighbors, such as those who think nothing of slitting the throats of sleeping Jewish four-year-olds?

Or, does he see the handwriting on the wall for Europe, perhaps the Third Jewish Commonwealth itself as well, and is he trying to ingratiate himself to the coming Islamic masters? If so, should it sour for him and should he come knocking on America's doors, I hope he doesn't expect a warm welcome from Evangelicals.

BTW, as an Evangelical who's grown up around Jews, I'm well aware that Efrati probably does not speak for much of his community. Despite my liberal upbringing,I learned soon enough that not all religions conform to the centralized Roman Catholic model to which most of our cultured despisers insist that we adhere (it bugs me, for instance, to see some journalist who hasn't set foot in a church for decades anointing Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell as my "Evangelical Pope").

But, I'll also admit that some of what he says about the "health" of Islam intrigues me. Is secular Europe so far gone that, compared to its declining birth rate, tolerance of perversion, unwillingness to defend itself, and boring cinema, Islam appears "healthy"? If so, I don't think I'd like to invest a son's life in Europe's defense!

"Better freely depraved of liberty, than forcibly deprived of it."

Thank you Robert for a factual, historical and educational response to Efrati's words.

It is for everyone to see that Europeans, pardon the crude description, have vomited their jews and and gave themselves a huge enema of muslims. Yet, Efrati reflects a common blindness Israelis and many Jews have had about islam.

I grew up in Israel and we never studied about Khaibar for example. It was never in the collective memory or school history books at the time.

People like Efrati show a human condition, where someone's hate towards you is so sever you choose to ignore it and look inward just to stay sane. Also, it is easier to react to past experiences (European and christian atrocities against jews) as opposed to facing genocidal dogma and acts in real time.

The Rambam (Maimonides) wrote the statements about Muslims in his 'Yemen Letter" while living in Egypt. It was his response to a pleading letter from a jew in Yemen describing the terrible oppression by a Shiite ruler at the time.
A few years back when the pope visited Syria, he stood by silently while Al Assad went on the most despicable anti semitic diatribe.

Here are a few anecdotes from personal experience to illustrate the complexity, and reasons for unfortunate conclusions people like Efrati may come to:

Last year I spoke to a French woman in her twenties. She was born in Paris to Algerian Jewish parents. Her Parents always said that they and their muslim neighbours in Algeria felt a common dislike to Christianity (trinity as opposed to one god etc) and she could not understand why north africans of her generation in France are going for the Jews.

Also last year, an Australian university student I know, went to study in Vienna. She told me that once her peers had enough to drink the anti semitism surfaced in a way that shocked her deeply.

A Brazilian friend of mine is the son of a Hitlerjugend father and a catholic Brazilian-Italian mother. His antisemitism is incurable as it was instilled in him from early childhood. Yes we are still friends and I am not a jewacidal jew by any stretch of the imagination.

To sum up:
Not all rabbis sheiks or priests are men of the world and ignorance is the most common aspect of human knowledge.

Nice catch, Graven, on Gunung's error. I was about to post that correction but then saw yours.

I'm not sure what to make of this. I noticed that you and dda seem to consider him (?) suspect. I frankly hadn't noticed him until I saw him and some others attacking Liberated/Shakila in the other thread.

Christianity, though debased at times by some of its adherents, has in it theological blueprint no prescription for treating Jews in this world as second-class human beings. By contrast, Islam's theolological blueprint is rich with rank anti-Semitism, Suras 2, 5 and 7 as well as many tenets of Sharia being partially dispositive of this, the sum of which inculcates in the Muslim a duty to have Jews looked upon and treated in this world as inferior, as lesser human beings.

Also, the Christian world has shown again and again a capacity to apologize for past malfeasance. The Islamic world has shown no such capacity.

Baruch Efrati is either suffering from (or enjoying, whatever) Stockholm syndrome due to relentless opression by his Muslim neighbors, or he is heavily invested in Saudi oil stocks like George W. Bush who also spoke highly of Islam.
He should move to Sderot forthwith or maybe even Gaza city - Pakistan might be nice for him. I bet he didn't ride the bus much in Jerusalem in the nineties.

Well, I wonder if our Western embrace of depravity isn't accelerating our surrender of our liberties.

I have a hypothetical for the good rabbi:

You're standing in the middle of a city block. Immediately to your north is a church. Immediately to your south is a mosque. The doors to the church open, and about 30 young men exit. They linger outside the building, joking and talking with each other. You glance the other direction and notice that at the same time, the doors of the mosque open and about 30 young men exit. They linger outside the building, joking and taking with each other.

Just then, your wife calls and and says dinner is ready and you should proceed home immediately. So tell me, dear rabbi, which direction will you walk -- north past the church or south past the mosque?

No doubt Western depravities have weakened the West's ability to defend liberty to some degree; but far more damaging in this regard are the ethical principles believed, with starry-eyed sincerity, by politically correct multiculturalists (PC MCs) who, unfortunstely, have become dominant and mainstream throughout the West, throughout our institutions, and throughout all classes of society from dastardly "Elites" on down to Normal People (as well as the vast and variegated demographic swath of people, often overlooked, who represent the area in between those two quaintly drawn extremes).

What ethical principles, one might ask?

These:

Respect for the Other

Self-criticism

Avoidance of prejudice (innocent until proven guilty, and so forth)

Universalism (embracing several symbolisms in its constellation, including the cluster humanity/Mankind/human nature, as pointing toward a transcending of tribalism)

-- all good principles, derived in great part from our Graeco-Roman Judaeo-Christian heritage; but with the advent of Leftism -- and then its far more influential and effective (precisely because watered down) cousin PC MC -- taken to irrational excess.

Exactly to what degree of excess this has been taken is a complicated issue; but that it has been taken to such excess may be massively measured by the myriad ways in which -- and gymnastic extent to which -- Islam and Muslims are defended by Western PC MCs while they reserve most of their criticism for the flaws, faults, guilt and shame of their own West.

Gunung Semeru,

The Jews didn't drive Muhammad from Mecca. Muhammad's own tribe (the Quraysh) drove him from Mecca.

quite corrrect. I do believe anti semitisim among Christians is a cultural and ethnical problem.
Where is the the anti semitisim in the bible? Though jews rejected christ as their savior other jews became his followers and apostles. Even Christ had jewsish blood so how can a christian be anti jew? would that not make them a christian apostate and hypocrite?

Of all major religious books and teaching is anti semitism a part of their book? Which religious book teaches that god turned some jews into rats and pigs? Which book tells it's devine people to ethnically cleanse jews from their lands? is it the Bible? Gita? The Vedas?the Avesta? The Guru Granth? Tipitaka? teachings of Confucianism? Tao Te Ching? or, how about the koran? Bingo! koran takes the cake in every bit of anti semitisim, anti christianity, and anti all other religions and people other than pure islam and Arabs.
Not only are anti jewish teachings part of the koran but also the whole islamic culture.
Ask the rabbi which place he could visit freely, the Vatican or mecca?

Wow! a brownie point for your diligence

OOOPs

It was narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said to Makkah, “What a good land you are, and how dear you are to me. Were it not that my people drove me out from you, I would never have lived anywhere else.”

Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 3926

But the biggest mistake, was the Jews giving him refuge

Excellent, sustained, fact-filled meditation by Spencer on critical distinctions between Christian and Muslim oppression of Jews during the course of history.

"But the biggest mistake, was the Jews giving him refuge"

Quite telling isn't it? the jews give refuge to a scoundral and the scoundral turns around and attacks the Jews. The muslims copy this scoundral in every way including stabbing their good sameritans in the back.

As an orthodox Jew, I must point out that just because someone holds the title "Rabbi" doesn't mean they have any understanding of history, current events, or other religions. All the term "Rabbi" signifies is that he (probably) passed a test on Jewish law. Most rabbis don't even hold any positions of authority or leadership, but have occupations outside the rabbinate.

As far as I could tell from a cursory internet search, Rabbi Efrati is not even a rav (a rabbi who has had extra training and has more expertise in Jewish law than a run-of-the-mill rabbi) and was simply stating his opinion. It carries absolutely no weight in the Jewish community at large. Probably only a handful of Jews would have read his opinion on the matter if Ynet hadn't found out about it and every antisemite on the internet hadn't run with it.

I've never heard such an opinion from anyone in my community. And you can tell from the student's question "How do we fight the Islamization of Europe and return it to the hands of Christians and moderates?" that even he took as a starting point that things would be better if Europe were in Christian rather than Muslim hands. My guess is that Rabbi Efrati's opinion is a miniscule minority.

Thankyou for the reminder,

Quran 8:30 Remember when those who disbelieved (in God) plotted (at the meeting of the chiefs in the idol worshipper council in Mecca (Makkah)) against you (Prophet Muhammad, about whether) to restrain you or to kill you or to evict you (from Mecca (Makkah)), they made (their) plans but God also planed (by commanding you Prophet Muhammad to leave Mecca (Makkah)) and God is the best of planners.

"Rabbi Efrati was asked to discuss the issue by an oriental studies student..."
_________________________________

Ah yes. Oriental Studies. Issues. Dumb, dhimmified Jews and their "students".


So what else is new?

Stockholm?

I'd bet that most European rabbis would find Elfrati's opinion idiotic. I'm sure they understand very well that an Islamic takeover of Europe would be a disaster, for Jews as much as for anyone.

Thank you Robert, that was really a fun read! Gregory the Great is one of my favourite figures of the early church :)

Lawrence Wright really does need a good metaphorical slap with a wet bus ticket: "coupled with slanders by Christian missionaries in the region" - what! Having studied Christian missiology this simply does not fit. We also note no mention of the likes of Haj amin al-husseini in his accounting!

Obviously the key point is that nowhere in Christian core texts is there any teaching suporting antisemitism, in absolute contradistinction to Islam! Indeed believers in Jesus Christ are termed as wild olives grafted into the domesticated Olive tree of God, Israel.

AS I like to tell everyone I discuss such matters with - the Jews didn't kill the Son of God. I did. My sins, my hatred, my self-will killed him. The buck stops here and with as many as can accept this.

Those Crusaders who attacked Jews on their way to Palestine also killed Byzantine Christians and Arians... based upon what words or example of Christ we might ask? How unlike Muhammad. People of their time versus timeless principles of hate.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if we could pray like Paul "I would rather be cut off from Christ myself in order to bring the Jews (and Muslims) in to him". That is real love and the kind of motivation that mirrors Christ's own love for humans. It does not give up in impatience, but allows room for God to work - be it over generations!

Thank you for your wonderful exposition.

I dont know if this is accurate or not but I think I read somewhere that the Hasidic Jews resisted the creation of the state of Israel because they were waiting for God himself to appear. I guess this is along the lines of that story where there's a flood and three chances to be saved happens etc.

"Thanks for the reminder."

The question is, why did Gunung have that seeming Mohammedan slip in the first place? His principle of reasonable suspicion of Liberated One now turns on him -- can he take his own medicine? Unless he supplies a plausible answer to my question, consider me suspicious.

Well, this rabbi seems just the type for that infamous "interreligious dialogue", which is perhaps better described as Christian Apologetics2.0, i.e. the obsession whether enough unilateral apologies have been made for alleged past mistakes.

Anyway, this man will fit right in! If one didn't know any better, his words might just as well have come from some Islamic hatebeard in some far off dusty Backwaterstan. He could easily represent both guilt exploiting tribal cults and thus save one chair at the table ;-)

Kind regs from / Amsterdam /,
Sag.

Actually, I was in a hurry to point out that the Jews made a big blunder not to get rid of him while he was weak, without giving much thought to what I was writing.

Interesting, I acknowledged my mistake, I even put up several quotes to show my mistake, even though the individual who apprehended me did not bother to supply the link.

One of the quotes comes from the koran, which is considered reliable beyond doubt, but it does not say exactly who threw him out.

The second quote indicates it was his tribe that kicked him out, but the quote is based on chinese whispers, that muslims must believe on the threat of death.

Because there are so many contradictions between the Hadithes and Koran also as I am not a muslim I am quite free to question them and reject them if I so wish.

As a Jew I can say that the myth that all Jews are smart is just that - A MYTH. This idiot rabbi is proof.

There are plenty more PC MC (and out-and-out Leftist) Jews where this rabbi comes from.

However, since there are also plenty of Christian PC MCs, and atheist PC MCs, and agnostic PC MCs, and Hindu PC MCs, and Buddhist PC MCs, it isn't all that remarkable to find PC MC Jews. They may have some variants of flavorings to their PC MC/Leftism (imbued with an anti-Christian and/or Christianophobic animus), but it's largely the same -- as can be plainly seen in those all too common Rabbi/Minister/Imam traveling shows put on in various venues throughout the West to propagandize the harmony of the "Three Abrahamic Faiths".

...those all too common Rabbi/Minister/Imam traveling shows put on in various venues throughout the West to propagandize the harmony of the "Three Abrahamic Faiths".

By the way, in those nauseating spectacles, only the Imam knows what's going on -- while the Christian minister (or priest) and the Jewish rabbi are brain-dead dupes whose cognition has been replaced by politically correct platitudes and might as well be ventriloquist dummies with the Imam's hands up their respective anuses.

Kinana of Khaybar wrote:

Nice catch, Graven, on Gunung's error. I was about to post that correction but then saw yours.

I'm not sure what to make of this. I noticed that you and dda seem to consider him (?) suspect...
............................

As does Jan, Kinana.

Certainly, his early posts were *very* equivocal, at best—he wouldn't even clearly condemn the stoning of women under Shari'ah law, and meretriciously implied that my even asking his opinion on the matter meant that I must condone the stoning of men!

The exchange is here, and following comments on that thread:

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/11/obama-win-good-news-for-pakistan-flag-vendors.html#comment-916547

But in his more recent comments, Gunung largely sounds like a credible Anti-Jihadist.

So—I'm not sure what to think. I'm willing to keep an open mind on the matter...

Certainly, I don't consider a slip-up on Mecca/Medina to be in and of itself that serious. I've seen otherwise knowledgeable Anti-Jihadists confuse the two many times.

Gunung Semeru wrote:

Wow! a brownie point for your diligence
.........................

Thanks. As I noted, the two are commonly confused. Good quotes from Islamic texts.

On December 30, 1066, about four thousand Jews in Granada were murdered by rioting Muslim mobs—more than would be killed in the Crusaders’ infamous Rhineland pogroms of the mid-twelfth century.

That Muslim mob must have been "Salafists"...

I'm with you on that, traeh; I am nigh invariably with you.

There will always be righteous Gentiles in the world, thanks to the ethical basis and universality of Judaism.

Socrates, Plato and Aristotle also helped a bit in that regard.

LemonLime wrote:

On December 30, 1066, about four thousand Jews in Granada were murdered by rioting Muslim mobs—more than would be killed in the Crusaders’ infamous Rhineland pogroms of the mid-twelfth century.

That Muslim mob must have been "Salafists"...
.........................

Yes—and another fine episode from the fabled "Golden Age" of Moorish Spain; when Muslims, Jews, and Christians lived in a utopia of tolerance under Islamic rule...

Sagunto wrote:

Well, this rabbi seems just the type for that infamous "interreligious dialogue", which is perhaps better described as Christian Apologetics2.0, i.e. the obsession whether enough unilateral apologies have been made for alleged past mistakes...
......................

Very, very true, Sagunto.

This winds up being just another subset of the "Westerners apologize endlessly for 'colonialism'" phenomenon.

One of the great mysteries of our time—linked to PC/MC—is why no one has felt Muslims should apologize for Islam's *much* uglier history of colonialism.

One problem is sheer ignorance—I don't believe many Westerners even see Islam's violent history of conquest as colonialism at all.

The other issue, as you note, is that so many Westerners are so willing to unilaterally apologize for historical mistakes—both real and imagined.

This is an example of a generally decent and healthy impulse of self-criticism and reassessment that has become perverted over the years into a frequently weird passion of self-abasement.

And Sagunto, it is good to see you posting again.

Thanks for the background, Graven. I guess we will find out one way or another about Gunung, going forward.

"One of the great mysteries of our time—linked to PC/MC—is why no one has felt Muslims should apologize for Islam's *much* uglier history of colonialism."

It's not a mystery at all, gravenimage: Muslims are exempt from any serious criticism, including its Colonialist record, because they are perceived by PC MCs to be a non-white people & culture (or stir-fry or "mosaic" of a "diversity" of different non-white peoples & cultures.

For that is one of the 10 Commandments of PC, that only whites may be seriously criticized, if not often mocked and condemned, for their historical, and current, mistakes and misdeeds).

It's that simple.

(I left out one parenthesis, then mistakenly added another where it didn't belong: too little sleep, not enough coffee...)

True. And the Hellenistic age profoundly influenced Judaism.

"Hellenistic Age," that is.

LemonLime wrote:

"One of the great mysteries of our time—linked to PC/MC—is why no one has felt Muslims should apologize for Islam's *much* uglier history of colonialism."

It's not a mystery at all, gravenimage...
..............................

Quite right, LemonLime. I was being sarcastic here. I always urge posters to use the "sarc" tag so as to make their comments clear.

I had considered using it, but decided my intent was plain. I guess I wasn't as clear as I had hoped...

gravenimage, I'm usually pretty good at detecting sarcasm, and I don't like to advertise my own with those "sarc" tags -- but yours flew right past me!

Leave a comment

NOTE: The Comments section is provided in the interests of free speech only. It is mostly unmoderated, but comments that are off topic, offensive, slanderous, or otherwise annoying stand a chance of being deleted. The fact that any comment remains on the site IN NO WAY constitutes an endorsement by Jihad Watch, or by Robert Spencer or any other Jihad Watch writer, of any view expressed, fact alleged, or link provided in that comment.







Not Peace But A Sword by Robert SpencerDid Muhammad Exist? The Muslim Brotherhood in America, by Robert SpencerIslamophobia: Thoughtcrime of the Totalitarian FutureMuslim Persecution of Christians, by Robert Spencer Obama and IslamThe Ground Zero Mosque: Second Wave of the 9/11 Attacks
The Complete Infidel’s Guide to the Koran


Stealth Jihad


The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam


The Truth About Muhammad


What they’re saying about Robert Spencer
“My comrade-in-arms, my pal, my buddy.”
Oriana Fallaci

“Robert Spencer incarnates intellectual courage when, all over the world, governments, intellectuals, churches, universities and media crawl under a hegemonic Universal Caliphate’s New Order. His achievement in the battle for the survival of free speech and dignity of man will remain as a fundamental monument to the love of, and the self-sacrifice for, liberty.”
Bat Ye’or

“Robert Spencer is indefatigable. He is keeping up the good fight long after many have already given up. I do not know what we would do without him. I appreciate all the intelligence and courage it takes to keep going despite the appeasement of the West.”
Ibn Warraq

“America's most informed, fearless, and compelling voice on modern jihadism.”
Andrew C. McCarthy, Senior Fellow at National Review Institute

“Robert Spencer is the leading voice of scholarship and reason in a world gone mad. If the West is to be saved, we will owe Robert Spencer an incalculable debt.”
Pamela Geller, Atlas Shrugs

"The consummate Islam critic and expert." — Bruce Bawer

“Over the years, we have become friends, and I have received his assistance on several pieces of legislation I proposed.”
Former Congressman Tom Tancredo

“Few people are capable of applying scholarship, analytical reasoning, and objectivity to their topic -- while simultaneously being readable and witty -- as can Robert Spencer.”
Raymond Ibrahim

“A national treasure...The acclaimed scholar of Islam.”
Frank Gaffney, Center for Security Policy

“I am indeed honored to call him my friend.”
Brad Thor, novelist

“A top American analyst of Islam....A serious scholar...I learn from him.”
Daniel Pipes

“A brilliant scholar and writer.”
Douglas Murray

"One of my best teachers."
Ashraf Ramelah, Voice of the Copts

“Thank God there’s at least one man with balls left in the West.”
Kathy Shaidle, Five Feet of Fury

“I read people like [Mark Steyn] and Bob Spencer and the rest of them, and I say, ‘Boortz, you’re pretending you’re an author. These people really are. They really write some entertaining, some standup stuff.’”
Neal Boortz

“Robert Spencer is the Stephen King of Jihad.”
Chris Gaubatz, Muslim Mafia

“Armed with facts and fearlessness, Spencer stands up for Western civilization.”
Michelle Malkin

“Widely read in conservative foreign policy circles.”
New York Times

“Widely read in many quarters in Washington.”
Washington Post

“A canny operative who likely has the inside track on the State Department’s Middle East affairs desk should the tea party win the White House.”
New York Magazine

“A hero of the American right.”
Karen Armstrong

"The leading anti-Islamic intellectual in the United States....The go-to Islam expert for the right wing."
Salon Magazine

“Robert Spencer is an Edward Said turned upside down.”
Stephen Suleyman Schwartz

“One of the nation's most notorious Islamophobes.”
Hamas-linked CAIR

"Geller and Spencer are probably the most important propagandizing Islamophobes in the world. These people's voices speak very loudly — not just here in the United States but overseas."
Heidi Beirach, Southern Poverty Law Center

“Satanic ignoramus.”
Khaleel Mohammed

“The Likud anti-Christ.”
Dar al-Hayat newspaper (Saudi Arabia)

“Zionist Crusader, missionary of hate, counter-Islam consultant.”
Al-Qaeda’s Adam Gadahn, “Azzam the American”



Follow me on Twitter
facebook islam
RSS feed

Monthly Archives



Donate
Jihad Watch is a 501 (c) 3 organization. Donations are tax-deductible.


Robert Spencer debates on The Quran Teaches WarVideo: Robert Spencer on CPAC Breitbart News
Crucified Again by Raymond Ibrahim
SIOAFreedom Defense InitiativeJihad Watch VideosAmerican Freedom Law Center
Note: Listing here does not imply endorsement of every view expressed at every linked site.

» ACT for America
» Always on Watch
» American Center for Democracy
» American Coptic Association
» American Council for Kosovo
» American Freedom Alliance
» American Freedom Law Center
» American Islamic Forum for Democracy
» American Sheepdogs
» American Thinker
» Americans Against Hate
» Americans for Legal Immigration
» Amerisrael
» Amillennialist Contra Mundum
» Annaqed
» A New Dark Age Is Dawning
» Answering Islam
» Answering Muslims
» Anti-CAIR
» Apostates of Islam
» Aramaic Broadcasting Network (ABN)
» Armies of Liberation
» Assyrian International News Agency
» Atlas Shrugs
» Atour — The State of Assyria
» Australian Islamist Monitor
» Biafra Nation
» Blazing Cat Fur
» Bosch Fawstin
» Brad Thor
» Brussels Journal
» CAIR Watch
» Campus Watch
» Caroline Glick
» Christians Under Attack
» Citizen Warrior
» Coalition for the Defense of Human Rights
» Conservative Nation News
» Copts.com
» Creeping Sharia
» Daniel Pipes
» David Horowitz Freedom Center
» The David Project
» David Thompson
» David Yerushalmi Law
» D. C. Watson
» Dearborn Underground
» DEBKAfile
» Dhimmitude.org
» Dry Bones
» Ellis Washington Report
» Europe News
» Eye On Islam
» Ezra Levant
» Faith Freedom International
» Father Zakaria
» Federale
» Five Feet of Fury
» Foundation for Democracy in Iran
» Free Congress Foundation
» The Free Copts
» Freedom Defense Initiative
» FrontPage Magazine.com
» Geert Wilders
» Genocide1915.info
» Global Research in International Affairs (GLORIA) Center
» History of Jihad
» Hizb ut-Tahrir Watch
» Honest Reporting
» Honor Killings
» Human Rights Congress for Bangladesh Minorities
» India Defence
» Infidel Blogger’s Alliance
» Infidels Are Cool
» The Intelligence Summit
» International Analyst Network
» International Free Press Society
» Internet Haganah
» The Investigative Project on Terrorism
» IOwnTheWorld.com
» IranPressNews
» Iran va Jahan
» Islam Review
» Islam Speaks
» Islam Versus Europe
» Islam Watch
» Islamic Terrorism in India
» Islamist Watch — Middle East Forum
» Israel Matzav
» JihadOnBuddhists.org
» Kejda Gjermani
» KRSI: Radio Sedaye Iran
» Liberated
» Logan's Warning
» Looking At the Left
» Mahdi Watch
» Mapping Sharia
» Mark Steyn
» Martin Kramer
» MEMRI TV
» Middle East Facts
» Middle East Quarterly
» Middle-East-Info.org
» Middle East Media Research Institute
» Middle East Review of International Affairs (MERIA)
» Militant Islam Monitor
» Morning Star
» Muhammad Tube
» The Muslim Issue
» Muslim World Today
» Myths and Facts
» National Vietnam & Gulf War Veterans Coalition
» NewsReal Blog
» No Mosques At Ground Zero
» Nonie Darwish
» Northeast Intelligence Network
» Occidental Jihadist
» One Jerusalem
» Open Speech
» Operation Give
» Operation Gratitude
» Organiser
» Orwellian Culture
» Palestinian Media Watch
» PamelaGeller.com
» Panun Kashmir
» Pedestrian Infidel
» The People's Cube
» The People of the Book
» Persecution Project
» Political Islam
» Politically Incorrect
» Politiskt Inkorrekt
» Q Society of Australia
» Radio Farda
» Radio Jihad
» RAWA: Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan
» Raymond Ibrahim
» Red Alerts
» Refugee Resettlement Watch
» Religion of Peace
» Republican Riot
» Reuters Middle East Watch
» The “Reverend” Jim Sutter
» SANE: Society of Americans for National Existence
» The Second Draft
» Shire Network News
» SITE Intelligence Group
» Small Wars Journal
» Smoke-Filled World
» The Snooper Report
» Snow Report Blog
» StandWithUs
» Steve Lackner
» The Stiletto Blog
» STOP! Honour Killings
» Sultan Knish
» Tell the Children the Truth
» Terrorism Awareness Project
» Theodore’s World
» Tom Gross Media
» Translating Jihad
» Una via per Oriana
» Undaunted
» United States Central Command
» Urban Infidel
» Walid Shoebat
» Winds of Jihad
» Women Against Shariah
» World Council for the Cedars Revolution
» Yid With Lid
» Z Street
» Zilla of the Resistance
» Zionist Conspiracy
David LittmanOriana Fallaci Thousands of Deadly Terror Attacks Since 9/11The incredible Reza Aslan automated insult generator! iGoogle Gadget
Site Meter