Moderate Palestinian Authority: No plans to outlaw honor murders

The "moderate" Palestinian Authority gives pardons or suspended sentences for honor murders.

Muslims commit 91 percent of honor killings worldwide. A manual of Islamic law certified as a reliable guide to Sunni orthodoxy by Al-Azhar University, the most respected authority in Sunni Islam, says that "retaliation is obligatory against anyone who kills a human being purely intentionally and without right." However, "not subject to retaliation" is "a father or mother (or their fathers or mothers) for killing their offspring, or offspring's offspring." ('Umdat al-Salik o1.1-2). In other words, someone who kills his child incurs no legal penalty under Islamic law.

Iraqi women have asked for tougher sentences for Islamic honor murderers, who get off lightly now. Syria in 2009 scrapped a law limiting the length of sentences for honor killings, but "the new law says a man can still benefit from extenuating circumstances in crimes of passion or honour 'provided he serves a prison term of no less than two years in the case of killing.'" And in 2003 the Jordanian Parliament voted down on Islamic grounds a provision designed to stiffen penalties for honor killings. Al-Jazeera reported that "Islamists and conservatives said the laws violated religious traditions and would destroy families and values."

In light of all this, until authorities get the courage to tell the truth about honor killing, there will be many more such murders.

"Abbas aide: No plans to outlaw 'honor killing,'" by Soraya Al-Ghussein and Hannah Patchett for Ma'an, December 24 (thanks to Jerk Chicken):

RAMALLAH (Ma'an) -- President Mahmoud Abbas has no plans to amend laws that reduce sentences for suspects who claim an "honor" defense for murdering women, his legal adviser says.

"Why change it? This would cause serious problems," Hassan al-Ouri told Ma'an, adding that such a reform would "not benefit women."

In May 2011, the president pledged to amend the law to guarantee maximum penalties for "honor killing" in response to protests over the killing of university student Aya Baradiya in Hebron.

The decision was announced in a phone call to a primetime show on state TV, drawing tears among crowds of mourners shown in a live link-up from the Ramallah studio to Baradiya’s hometown.

Abbas suspended Article 340, which offers a pardon for murder if the perpetrator committed the crime on finding his wife in bed with another man.

The reform was cosmetic: Article 340 had never been used in Palestinian courts since it was legislated in 1960.

"So why did we change the law? To garner public opinion," al-Ouri said in an interview in the presidential compound in Ramallah.

"I, personally, was against the amendment because the crimes that happen in the street have no relevance to Article 340," the legal adviser added.

Al-Ouri says the president will not change the go-to clauses for lawyers seeking leniency for clients who claim they committed murder to defend family "honor."

Articles 97 to 100 of the Jordanian Penal Code, in force in the West Bank, still offer reduced sentences for any act of battery or murder committed in a "state of rage."

"The (law) only addresses 1 percent of the problem. What we need is a new culture," al-Ouri said.

Other officials insist the penal code is the problem.

The law "privileges the killer," Interior Ministry official Haitham Arrar told Ma'an.

"It encourages some people to commit crimes against women, which will go (as far as) killing them," said Arrar, who heads the ministry's democracy and human rights unit.

Abbas fears 'conservative forces'

The Palestinian Legislative Council has not met since 2007, when Hamas and Fatah split, but women's rights expert Soraida Hussein dismisses arguments that reforms must wait until parliament reconvenes.

"For us, for women, all this is irrelevant," said Hussein, general director of the Women's Technical Affairs Committee, an umbrella group of women’s organizations. "Until now, our lives -- in law and in practice -- are seen as less than men's."

The president should issue a decree that "anybody killing anyone else will be sentenced to the highest sentence possible, whether it is a woman or a boy," says Hussein.

"The minute the law is changed and applied, the minute people will think twice," she says. "It's simple and it's not done."

Hussein suggests Abbas is hesitant to pass legal reforms because "he is not ready yet to confront conservative forces."

For Ma'an, as for the mainstream media, you're "conservative" if you support Sharia and honor killings, but if you oppose them you're..."conservative."

In 2009, Abbas ratified the UN Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women, but al-Ouri, the legal adviser, says it will only be implemented "so long as it doesn’t contravene Islamic code."

"Look, we are for total equality but if there is a basic tenet of Islamic code that we would be forced to change under CEDAW, then people would revolt and brand us as non-believers," al-Ouri said.

'Dressing up honor'

Lax laws encourage murder suspects to claim "honor" in their defense, officials and women’s rights activists say.

"Because the penalty is one or two months, they consider killing her and dress it up as honor," Minister of Women's Affairs Rahiba Diab told Ma'an.

Khawla al-Azraq, who runs a women’s counseling center in Bethlehem, notes that femicide is a global issue but "now in Palestine, they call this honor killing."

"Sometimes these girls are abused by someone in the family and they need to cover this (up) and they kill her; sometimes because they need her money," she says. "These are the real reasons for killing."

"In Palestine, this is the gap, that until now we don’t have our own legislation that really can protect women."

The Independent Commission of Human Rights says 13 women have been killed this year, but the real figure is likely to be higher.

"There has been historically a problem of documentation," says Hussein, the women's rights expert. The cause of suspicious deaths of women was often recorded as "fate," which could refer to forced "suicides" or being pushed from a building, she explained.

Despite repeated requests since September, the Ministry of Interior did not provide Ma'an with the official number of women whose deaths were recorded as "fate" in 2012.

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the killing of wives and girlfriends termed in the west as "crimes of passion" to punish women who dishonor their husbands and boyfriends

numbers in the hundreds of thousands worldwide

compared to honor killing that numbers in the thousands ( five thousand worldwide per year)

Looks like Sparky here, who was caught lying on the other thread is back here again.

How long will it take for him to ask others to prove/dis prove your beliefs?

too similar to Peter, huh!!

Christians from the Middle East share their faith in the time of Christmas despite their situation and suffering they go through. This should also reflect in our lives and carry on supporting these people.

Read more: http://www.maghrebchristians.com/2012/12/26/palestinian-christians-christmas-four-stories-of-sufferings-and-hope/#ixzz2GBZlFKU5

Youssef

Moderate Palestinian Authority: No plans to outlaw honor murders
............................

Well, of course not. "Palestinians" might want to "Honor Kill" a disobedient wife or daughter, or slaughter an "apostate" when they're taking time off plotting to kill Jews. Variety is the spice of life, after all...

More:

The "moderate" Palestinian Authority gives pardons or suspended sentences for honor murders.
............................

What does this say about those naïve fools in the West who seem to believe that a "Palestinian" state would be a good neighbor for Israel—or even that a "one state" solution involving a Muslim majority state would be a civilized matter? Idiocy.

More:

Iraqi women have asked for tougher sentences for Islamic honor murderers, who get off lightly now. Syria in 2009 scrapped a law limiting the length of sentences for honor killings, but "the new law says a man can still benefit from extenuating circumstances in crimes of passion or honour 'provided he serves a prison term of no less than two years in the case of killing.'" And in 2003 the Jordanian Parliament voted down on Islamic grounds a provision designed to stiffen penalties for honor killings...
............................

And, of course, the "Palestinian" territories are hardly alone. Murdering your "loved ones" is a fine Islamic tradition.

And how much worse are things likely to be in Syria with the fall of Assad? Even that vague fig leaf of disapproval of "Honor Killings" will certainly be jettisoned by the "Islamists".

More:

"Why change it? This would cause serious problems," Hassan al-Ouri told Ma'an, adding that such a reform would "not benefit women."
............................

Well, of course! If a woman is a good Muslim, she should not mind being murdered if she has displeased her owner...

More:

Articles 97 to 100 of the Jordanian Penal Code, in force in the West Bank, still offer reduced sentences for any act of battery or murder committed in a "state of rage."
............................

When you consider how much of Muslim life in general is lived in a "state of rage", this is literal "get out of jail free" card.

More:

"The (law) only addresses 1 percent of the problem. What we need is a new culture," al-Ouri said.
............................

With most "Palestinians" Muslim—and the dwindling population that is not living under terrible oppression—I very much doubt that the "Palestinian" territories are likely to get a new culture any time soon...

More:

In 2009, Abbas ratified the UN Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women, but al-Ouri, the legal adviser, says it will only be implemented "so long as it doesn’t contravene Islamic code."

"Look, we are for total equality but if there is a basic tenet of Islamic code that we would be forced to change under CEDAW, then people would revolt and brand us as non-believers," al-Ouri said.
............................

And this is *always* the case with Shari'ah—nothing may be allowed to contravene Islamic law, and so no reform is ever possible.

And if you try, you are branded an "apostate"—and thus may yourself be killed.

More:

"There has been historically a problem of documentation," says Hussein, the women's rights expert. The cause of suspicious deaths of women was often recorded as "fate," which could refer to forced "suicides" or being pushed from a building, she explained.
............................

There's that "inshallah fatalism" again, used in a particularly perverse manner here. I don't suppose the killers spending a nice long stretch in prison would similarly be considered "fate"? No, I didn't think so...

More:

"Sometimes these girls are abused by someone in the family and they need to cover this (up) and they kill her; sometimes because they need her money," she says. "These are the real reasons for killing."
............................

But it's all one and the same. Women and girls may be abused, raped, robbed, and killed for the slightest hint of "disobedience"—and then have her memory slandered by her murderer.

God, I hate Islam.

https://me.yahoo.com/a/gp8pfnMow5NejGbLakU7xp0sff8F.JUuVA--#e3d83 wrote:

the killing of wives and girlfriends termed in the west as "crimes of passion" to punish women who dishonor their husbands and boyfriends

numbers in the hundreds of thousands worldwide

compared to honor killing that numbers in the thousands ( five thousand worldwide per year)
...............................

More crap from "JUuVa"—who, as Dumbledore's Army points out, is likely the egregious "Peter" back again.

Men killing wives and girlfriends in the United States are hated and despised, and serve long prison sentences—or even receive the death penalty.

There is no winking at these horrible crimes, there is no reduced penalty for having committed them, and there is *no religious excuse for them*—unless, of course, the killer is a Muslim who has found his way into the United States.

And your characterizing these murders as "punish[ing] women who dishonor their husbands and boyfriends" is the sick way *Muslims* think, not Westerners. No healthy Westerner believes that a woman deserves to die for "dishonoring" a man.

And your attempt to claim that violence against women in the civilized West is *more common* than in Dar-al-Islam is just grotesque. The fact is that "Honor Killings" in the Muslim world are so common that they are rarely even recorded.

"God, I hate Islam."

So do I, Gravenimage ...

And God hates islam, too; the word of God says so:

"Let those who love the LORD hate evil, for he guards the lives of his faithful ones and delivers them from the hand of the wicked." -- Psalm 97:10

You wrote: 'the killing of wives and girlfriends termed in the west as "crimes of passion"..

Apart from playing the numbers game, for which you offer absolutely no credible evidence, how many of these 'crimes of passion' are the result of a religion that values women as a commodity? None!
How many so-called honour murders are a result of Islam treating women as a commodity? All!

That's the difference, you clown! Your so-called religion is the origin of the problem.

You're an evil lost cause defending an evil and worthless cause: islam

Champ, I hope you are having a wonderful Christmas season—dealing with creeps like the sick Muslim apologist above notwithstanding.

Yes, thank you, Gravenimage! ...Christmas Day was sooo much fun and memorable. Hope the same for you and yours, my friend :)

@GI,

A revelation,especially to those ignorant girls who
'fall in love' with muslim boys.

AJack, I could not answer you in the other thread because they closed it .

In the other thread

you said I am claiming.

I never claimed anything.

I was stating a belief in the goodness of the larger majority in both the christian and the muslim community.

The facts do not prove me wrong because

all the bad deeds done by muslims are done by a very tiny minority, just as all the bad deeds done by christians are by a tiny minority.

If you can prove me otherwise, I am more than willing to hear your case, thanks Jack

BBBBBBBBWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

Dude – you’ve been caught lying and have been pantsed for it – and now you want me to prove/disprove your claims, sentences, statements, beliefs or whatever you're calling it today.

That's rich.

Remember your first statement was about specific multiples of good, that Muslims do for non-Muslims.

When caught, you tried to explain it away as
“muslims do a lot more good than bad and that is what I meant”

Noticed that suddenly you DROPPED the mention of non-Muslims - nice try!!

You’ve tried to rope in circular logic about Christians and even admitted that you did not have any hard data at all.

If these are just your beliefs, then why point to web sites at all – why not just state, that your claims and beliefs have no basis on factual data.

If you have any data on how much good Muslims do to non muslims, as compared to the bad, why not present it?

Dude – you’ve been caught lying and have been pantsed for it – and now you want me to prove/disprove your claims, sentences, statements, beliefs or whatever you're calling it today.

That's rich.

Remember your first statement was about specific multiples of good, that Muslims do for non-Muslims.

When caught, you tried to explain it away as
“muslims do a lot more good than bad and that is what I meant”

Noticed that suddenly you DROPPED the mention of non-Muslims - nice try!!

You’ve tried to rope in circular logic about Christians and even admitted that you did not have any hard data at all.

If these are just your beliefs, then why point to web sites at all – why not just state, that your claims and beliefs have no basis on factual data.

If you have any data on how much good Muslims do to non muslims, as compared to the bad, why not present it?

all the bad deeds done by muslims are done by a very tiny minority...

Exactly how many is a very tiny minority? Is it less than ten or more than ten?

Give yourself an extra hour of inner spiritual struggle jihad, and the answer will pop into your head...
Allah is wise, compassionate and unforgiving...


Ajack, since you like numbers, here are numbers :

In 2000, the UN estimated 5000 honor killings worldwide:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:B.chachere/Sandbox#Honor_killings_in_history

In 2000, in the US alone there were almost 7000 killings perpetrated by husbands, ex-husbands, parents, siblings, children, intimate partners and friends due to the dishonor felt by the murderer:
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/homicide/tables/familytab.cfm

The population in the US during 2000 was 281,421,906

So the ratio of killings is 7,000/281,421,906 which is a conservative estimate if extrapolated worldwide since we have to assume that the per capita killings in the US is far less than the world since it’s a fact that higher income countries like the US have less murder than lower income countries


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States

World population during 2000 was 6,082,966,429


http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0762181.html

World muslim population during 2000 was 1,451,420,215:

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:G_r6Nach2QYJ:www.pupr.edu/hkettani/papers/WMP.pdf+worldwide+muslim+population+during+2000&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESiC-ukwNuMpIbS8WKdCO07NLSC9eqjm9X9zYZ1tPoG2FJ3RNGcYrRpnzPZ9d2tk2gxQ2ARWNLFdzGJr3nLTzho7b1U6tAcMpuiXaXClNy39tNcTQcDfPDjHRSrPwS19mprlRWMb&sig=AHIEtbSWzrcZVaCGSEPKaw0jaWuDQJAzNA

So the non-muslim worldwide population during 2000 was 4,631,546,214

So the 2000 conservative estimated worldwide non-muslim killing by husbands, ex-husbands, parents, siblings, children, intimate partners and friends due to dishonor felt by the murderer is a conservative estimate of 7,000/281,421,906 x 4,631,546,214 = 115,204

So in 2000, there were 5000 honor killings in the muslim world compared to 115,204 “crimes of passion” where the killer felt dishonored in the non-muslim world

“Ajack, since you like numbers, here are numbers”

The only problem is that, in the thread with me, you were trying to prove

“For every bad or evil done by a muslim,you can find 10 good things done by muslims to non-muslims"

Try again, sparky!!

Ajack, here are more numbers regarding muslims helping non-muslims during the Katrina crisis:

Qatar donated $100 million, along with a statement that read, “Please accept our solidarity as well as our heartfelt condolences for the tragic loss of so many precious lives.”

Kuwait donated $500 million worth of oil products and other humanitarian aid.

The United Arab Emirates ruler, Sheikh Khalifa bin Zayed al-Nahyan, contributed another $100 million in donations, including medicine, medical equipment, food, tents, clothing and other relief supplies.

Donations poured in from Saudi Arabia,

Oman,

Turkey,

Afghanistan,


Egypt.

Indonesia,


Bangladesh

still recovering from their own tsunami disaster—also sent generous contributions.


Tunisia sent two planeloads of blankets, tents and supplies as a gesture of “friendship between the people of Tunisia and America.”

The government of Pakistan donated $1 million in cash, and relief goods worth half-a-million dollars, for hurricane victims.


Islamabad also offered to send a team of doctors and paramedics to the region to support American relief agencies:

http://www.wrmea.org/component/content/article/278-2005-november/8365-special-report-muslims-and-arabs-around-the-world-organize-to-aid-hurricane-katrina-victims.html

David, you said " nowhere in your citations does it mention the word, "dishonor", or, "honor"."

So people kill because they feel honored ?

Off course people kill because they feel dishonored whether the citation mentions those very words or not.

David, thanks for reading the contents of the link

David, you said " nowhere in your citations does it mention the word, "dishonor", or, "honor"."

So people kill because they feel honored ?

Off course people kill because they feel dishonored whether the citation mentions those very words or not.

David, thanks for reading the contents of the link

[In 2000, in the US alone there were almost 7000 killings perpetrated by husbands, ex-husbands, parents, siblings, children, intimate partners and friends due to the dishonor felt by the murderer:
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/homicide/tables/familytab.cfm ]

Simple question –
- where in that doj table do you get the cause of the murder to be “due to the dishonor felt by the murderer”? I cannot find that reason being given in the tables presented in your link.

Did you make up that reason, or do you have some other source for the causes behind the homicide data given out by the DOJ in 2000?

Perhaps, the cause of the murder was money - or alcohol related violence.

Ajack, you said the cause of the murder was money or alcohol.

So you are saying the reason for murder was greed( money ) and that is not as bad as killing for feeling dishonored or betrayed ?

You seem to have a problem being honest -

- first you want to compare data of murder due to dishonor

- next you pull together all family (and friends) homicide data from the DOJ and make up the cause of all the murders (that is you lie about the cause, hoping that people would not look at the link)

- of course, in making this non factual extrapolation, you have included in your data all the causes for homicide, not just dishonor (so as to inflate the numbers)

- next you compare it with global honor killing data for 2000, without including in this case the murders committed by Muslims for reasons such as greed.

You compare apples and oranges and try to declare victory, hoping no one will catch on.

When caught, you resort to inane chutzpah.

The vile Muslim apologist—who has likely posted here previously as "Peter"—is at it again.

His claim that the West has more "Honor Killings" than Dar-al-Islam is grotesque.

The very article above shows its absurdity.

Such murders are not countenanced in the West—they are vigorously prosecuted and ordinary Westerners are revolted by such killers.

Not so in Dar-al-Islam, as in the "Palestinians" territories, and elsewhere.

And what is this Muslim apologist's opinion of "Honor Killing"? I notice he says *nothing* in condemnation—he just implies that Western women 'need killing' even more than Muslimahs do.

How repulsive.

The archaic definition of a 'crime of passion", in the West was of a crime committed without thinking in the heat of the moment.

This is completely different then your Islamic honor killings, which are premeditated murders, sometimes with the whole family aiding and abetting, religiously mandated and State sanctioned.

You are purposely mixing oranges with apples here. Not everyone will be fooled

Why bother arguing against the false claims of Islam apologists, especially when they try to deflect the argument away from their ideology and towards the actions of individuals, whether they be Muslims or even Christians?

Let the apologist defend the doctrine of Islam and reconcile his assertions which are in direct conflict with his reference to individual Muslims.

Islam = Sharia and vice versa. Sharia allows killing in the name of honor and defense of Islam. Those outside the familial realm of adult Muslim male are subject to the whim of the adult Muslim male.

That is Islam, plain and simple, and Abbas' comments aren't even a bit contraversial in the context of Islam.

AJack,

Murder caused by a husband, ex-husband, parent, sibling, intimate partner, child or friends is almost always due to

feeling betrayed or dishonored or (like you say) greed.

So whatever the reason, the victims do not know the difference between honor killing or greed while being brutally murdered because to the victim all they feel is the horror of being killed.

What I have shown is , for whatever reasons, the murders committed by non-muslims on their relatives, intimate partners or friends

far exceeds the annual "honor killing" murders committed by muslims on their relatives and friends during the year 2000.

AJack, The agenda of Jihad Watch is to show that there is something unique about muslims not found in other groups of people but

The top 23 countries for murder of all kinds are non-muslim countries :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

So if muslims are uniquely violent, why are they not anywhere in the top 23 countries ?

Graven, you stated " Such murders are not countenanced in the West—they are vigorously prosecuted and ordinary Westerners are revolted by such killers."

The agenda of Jihad Watch is to show that there is something unique about muslims not found in other groups of people but

The top 23 countries for murder of all kinds are non-muslim countries :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

So if muslims are uniquely violent, why are they not anywhere in the top 23 countries ?

Graven, you seem to admit that non-muslims are capable of evil acts against their own families and friends, so what are they being influenced by ? Their religion or what ?

I have clearly shown that on a worldwide basis, it seems like honor killings pales in comparison to the murder of family members, intimate partners and friends committed by non-muslims.

So if prosecution rates are low in muslim countries ( no evidence to back that assertion ) you would think that honor killings would at least be as high as those killings committed by non-muslims against their own families and friends

But why are honor killing numbers so low compared to crimes of passion committed by non-muslims ? Could it be that honor killings are committed by such a tiny minority of muslims and that is why honor killing numbers are so low.

As for prosecutions in the west :

An article in USA Today reports that in 2006, 96% of cases referred to the U.S. Justice Department for prosecution by investigative agencies were declined.

In 2005, 98% were declined:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_the_United_States#Police_brutality

Arrest rates for domestic violence also differ according to race :

https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/196666.pdf

As for domestic violence cases :

56% of cases resulted in a conviction, 33% were dropped or dismissed, and 9% led to pretrial diversion or deferred adjudication:

http://opdv.state.ny.us/statistics/nationaldvdata/nationaldvdata.pdf

David you stated : " people who are killed during robberies by complete strangers are killed for reasons of honor?"

People who are killed during a robbery are usually not related to the robber, so the question of honor or betrayal does not come into play

The agenda of Jihad Watch is to show that there is something unique about muslims not found in other groups of people but

The top 23 countries for murder of all kinds are non-muslim countries :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

So if muslims are uniquely violent, why are they not anywhere in the top 23 countries ?

[Murder caused by a husband, ex-husband, parent, sibling, intimate partner, child or friends is almost always due to feeling betrayed or dishonored or (like you say) greed]

Get the breakdown of the cause of the murders from the DOJ. Attaching a cause to the DOJ data, which the data itself does not mention for the year 2000, is dishonesty.

[the victims do not know the difference]
Rhetoric again – this thread is about the data comparison.

What you have “shown” is your inherent dishonesty – thank you for showing it again and again. You have nothing left to prove.

AJack,

you stated " Attaching a cause to the DOJ data, which the data itself does not mention for the year 2000, is dishonesty"

Whether I am attaching a cause or not really does not matter

since I am trying to prove that there is nothing unique about muslims

and they are not more violent than non-muslims

and that is why you find the following :

The top 23 countries for murder of all kinds are non-muslim countries :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

So if muslims are uniquely violent, why are they not anywhere in the top 23 countries ?

I don't think 'peter'/45ch/ JuUVa gives a damn about the facts, actually.

What he's doing is throwing sand and bullsh*tting. I actually suspect he doesn't care whether what he's citing checks out or not; what he's trying to do is to confuse the average casual lurker.

He ignores the studies that have been done on 'honor' murders that show that the cultural paradigm within which they take place is distinctively different from that of the West (or, for that matter, any other culture, except parts of certain cultures - Sikh, Hindu, southern European/ Balkan - that have been deformed and damaged by long and violent assault from Islam).

He ignores a little something in Geraldine Brooks' book on Islam and women, 'Nine Parts of Desire', which states that in the early 1990s a study of family violence in the UK discovered that women married to *Muslim* men were **eight times more likely to be killed by their spouses** than **any other women in Britain**, that is, than women whose spouses came from any other belief system. That is: Muslim husbands were **eight times more murderous** than non-Muslim husbands.

He ignores the work that Phyllis Chesler has done, comparing Muslim 'honor' murders - ritual killings of nubile females, carried out usually by close kin, often involving gross and ritualistic ultra-violence of a kind only seen in the western world in the practice of the psycho serial killer of strangers - with non-Muslim family violence, and showing that they are distinctively different.

"Are Honor Killings Simply Domestic Violence?" at the Middle East Forum.
http://www.meforum.org/2067/are-honor-killings-simply-domestic-violence

'Spengler' in Asia Times has also written a classic article - on the permission and prescribing of wife-beating within Islam, and the paradigm that supports it, a paradigm that *also* gives the Muslim paterfamilias power of life and death over his female chattels and therefore explains 'honor' murders as being, in effect, state-sanctioned executions of persons who have been declared rebel/ outlaw/ traitor in esse or in posse.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/LE25Ak01.html

Wife-beating, sharia, and Western law

'More than the Koran's sanction of wife-beating, the legal grounds on which the Koran sanctions it reveals an impassable gulf between Islamic and Western law...

"The practice of wife-beating, which is found in Muslim communities in Western countries, is embedded too profoundly in sharia law to be extracted.

"Nowhere to my knowledge has a Muslim religious authority of standing repudiated wife-beating as specified in Surah 4:32 of the Koran, for to do so would undermine the foundations of Muslim society.

"**By extension, the power of the little sovereign of the family can include the killing of wayward wives and female relations.

"**Execution for domestic crimes, often called "honor killing", is not mentioned in the Koran, but the practice is so widespread in Muslim countries - the United Nations Population Fund estimates an annual toll of 5,000 - that it is recognized in what we might term Islamic common law.** {my emphases - dda}

"Muslim courts either do not prosecute so-called honor killings, or prosecute them more leniently than other crimes.

"Article 340 of Jordan's penal code states, "He who discovers his wife or one of his female relatives committing adultery and kills, wounds, or injures one of them, is exempted from any penalty."

{And one must note that what Muslims cover by the term misleadingly translated 'adultery' is far, far broader than what westerners think of as 'adultery' - dda}.

'Syria imposes only a two-year prison sentence for such killings. Pakistan forbids them but rarely punishes them...".

And *there* is the difference that 'peter/ 45ch/ loveverybody/ JuUVa' is hoping we won't reflect upon.

If a man in the West kills his daughter (though this is far, far rarer in western countries than in Muslim countries) or his sister or cousin or aunt (also far, far rarer in western countries than in Muslim countries) or his wife, this is *murder* and **he will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law**. Our Mohammedtroll attempted to pretend that domestic violence was treated as leniently in the west as in the dar al Islam, but I do not think he can pretend that a man's **murder** of a female kinswoman would be treated as lightly in the West as it is generally treated in the Muslim world, where the man merely has to claim it was done for reasons of 'honor' (a concept that, as understood in the Muslim world, is *profoundly* alien to the western mindset), to get off scot free or with a mere slap on the wrist.


Our Mohammedtroll, in his laughable attempt to 'prove' that Muslim societies are peaceful and nice and have fewer murders than the West, also ignores the fact that many of these ritually 'honor'-murdered executed-by-family-decree (or executed-by-village-gossip-decree) girls and women probably never make it into such official statistics as are recorded in Islamic countries, anyway; they are murdered hugger-mugger by the family, and then dumped somewhere in the wadis like a dead cat, or buried in a shallow grave, and from the societal point of view, they 'disappear' and nobody ever talks about them ever again;; and nobody investigates and nobody is ever prosecuted. Nonie Darwish describes such a case in her book on Sharia.

Anybody want to try to guess whether the 'honor' murder of a Beduin Muslim girl somewhere out in the boondocks of the Sinai gets recorded by *anybody*? is anybody going to fill out a death certificate? What about some peasant Muslim girl in the remote hill country of Afghanistan, or of Iran, or in the most fiercely Muslim villages of Anatolia, or in the Sudan, once you get outside the major cities? *My* assumption is that such stats on things like 'honor' murders (and for that matter other kinds of murders) as *are* recorded by official governments of Muslim countries are the merest tip of the iceberg.

Nonie Darwish in her book on sharia, 'Cruel and Usual Punishment' describes the Muslim mindset - individual and group -as one of blame-shifting, scapegoating, denial of responsibility for anything bad, projection and outright LYING. Which means that it is highly unlikely that anything that the Muslims know makes themselves - the Ummah, Islam - look bad - and might therefore mess up their da'wa pitch to naive and gullible non-Muslims - is going to be publicly owned up to. To be frank: since Muslims are heavily invested in the idea that Islam / sharia is absolutely perfect, they are not going to be inclined to compile accurate statistics.

Dumble, you stated " He ignores the studies that have been done on 'honor' murders that show that the cultural paradigm within which they take place is distinctively different from that of the West"

Comment:

Yes, a tiny minority within the muslim community do practice honor killing and because its a very tiny minority we have about 5000 honor killings in the year 2000 ( as reported by the UN)

but compare that figure with the over 115,000 murders committed in 2000 in the non-muslim world that are perpetrated by husbands, ex-husbands, parents, siblings, intimate partners, children and friends

due to either being dishonored or being betrayed and to a lesser degree, greed

so the question is why is the non-muslim community around the world committing these crimes of passion or "honor" killings by over a hundred thousand compared to the 5000 honor killings committed in the muslim community ?

Also, The top 23 countries for murder of all kinds are non-muslim countries :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

So if muslims are uniquely violent, why are they not anywhere in the top 23 countries ?

Stop with the sand-throwing, Mohammedan.

I don't trust the official stats that come out of Muslim countries.

And I observe that you are still fudging, still trying to pretend that the motives of a non-Muslim man who murders his wife (non-Muslim men very *seldom* murder their teenage daughters; and non-Muslim men very *seldom* murder their sisters) are identical with those of a Muslim who carries out an 'honor' murder.

I repeat: the Muslim concept of 'honor' has *no real parallel* within the psychic/ psychological framework that westerners inhabit. The *causes* of a Muslim's anger are not the same as the causes of a non-Muslim's anger.

Nicolai Sennels shows that in his book 'Among Criminal Muslims'.

Muslim culture programs people into a totally different mindset that is the polar opposite of that which westerners inhabit.

http://frontpagemag.com/2010/05/05/among-criminal-muslims/

Among Criminal Muslims
Frontpage Interview’s guest today is Nicolai Sennels, a Danish psychologist who worked for several years with young criminal Muslims in a Copenhagen prison. He is the author of Among Criminal Muslims. A Psychologist’s Experience from the Copenhagen Municipality

"I found out that my Muslim clients had certain psychological characteristics that my non-Muslim – mostly Danish – clients did not have..".

Muslims are disproportionately represented in jails, etc, within the western world:

"...one significant conclusion was that having been raised in a Muslim environment – with Muslim parents and traditions – includes the risk of developing certain antisocial patterns.
About two thirds of all teenagers accused for criminal actions in Copenhagen have a Muslim background". (Muslims are NOT 2/3 of the population in Copenhagen).


I think that the character paradigm that Islam programs into its adherents - that is, the psychological paradigm or set of behaviours and attitudes that Islam considers to be 'normal', or 'ideal' or 'desirable' - is a paradigm that in the Western world is primarily found among people identified as *evil*, as *criminal*..

What the West sees as a feature or features of the *evil* personality, of the person who lies, cheats, murders, rapes, who abuses and dominates other people, is *aimed for* by Islam; because Muslims adulate and try to emulate Mohammed, who was a murderous, lying, cheating, slave-raiding, child-f**ing raping warlord.

You can 'spin' all you like, but no amount of sand will obscure what is becoming apparent to people like Sennels when they actually look at people and what they say and what they do.

Post scriptum: I advise you, if you think the Mohammedan world is so peaceful and nice, that you consider packing up and moving permanently to any Muslim country. Maybe Afghanistan? Somalia? Yemen? Syria? Libya? Algeria? Egypt? Iran? Mali, perhaps? - Timbuktu would be just the ticket. Ah yes, Saudi Arabia; and you can go down to Chop Chop Square every Friday to enjoy watching the executions and amputations and floggings.

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