Iranian-American Christian pastor imprisoned in Iran, faces death for trying to convert Muslims to Christianity

99david99 wrote:

Could be that Western leaders and media find Iran particularly offensive because it keeps reminding us that we are naive, impotent, complacent and timid?
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I find the Islamic Republic of Iran offensive because their actions *are offensive*.

Anyone who is *not* offended by Iran—which persecutes Christians and other religious minorities, hangs gay people, and stones "adulterous" women to death—is profoundly immoral, or else a devout Muslim, which amounts to the same thing.

The much better question is why so many in the West are not equally horrified by Saudi Arabia and other supposed "allies" like Pakistan.

Of course, our current administration doesn't appear to be terribly perturbed by *any* Islamic savagery...

This guy was not a foreign missionary in iran. He was a *native-born* Iranian who found, in another country, a belief system he liked much better than Islam; he then behaved exactly as anybody does who finds something good, he hurries off to share it with others. He wanted his family and friends and fellow Iranians - whom he knew to be miserable because of Islam - to find the joy and peace and happiness he had found; he was willing to *risk his life* to bring them...light.

And you heap scorn upon him and 'blame the victim'.

Do you believe this man deserves to be executed, for the sin of leaving Islam? Would you applaud and celebrate, if he were executed?

The sole responsibility for this man's suffering lies with the hideous system of Islam which binds people to itself on pain of death; which KILLS anyone who tries to leave it.

(By the way, do you perhaps *agree* with the Muslims that people should be killed, if they try to leave the religion their family practises? Do you think that it would be a good idea if all Christians in India were told that if they do not return to or convert to Hinduism, they must leave the country, or be executed as punishment for treason/ apostasy? Or would you simply propose to gag all Christians in India and make *any* communication or explanation of their faith or publication of their beliefs illegal?)

Do you *agree* with the idea that all people *must* remain perforce in whatever belief system their parents adhered to, irrespective of what they themselves think or what to do, and even if they encounter another belief system that they decide they like *better*??? Do you think that if they *do* leave, it can *only* be because somebody tricked, bribed or forced them to do so?? That there is no such thing as a rational decision - or a decision based on a real, mystical encounter with something genuinely perceived and known to be *good* - that can cause a person to leave one belief system and choose another?

Do you seriously believe that this man was bribed, tricked or coerced into becoming a Christian? If so, I say you are a liar and a fool.

He *knew* - none better - he could be killed if he left Islam. Nevertheless, he encountered something else that he decided was *true*, and he decided that Islam was false and evil, and he *left*. Do you deny his right to do that? And furthermore, if in his experience of the Christian faith he found it to be *good*, and to be a source of greater joy and freedom than Islam had been, why should he *not* try to share what he had found, with his fellow countrymen, in the land of his birth?? He believed he had found the light of life, the bread of life, the river of the water of life...and he wanted to *share* it and was prepared to *risk his life* to share it.

You, seemingly, think that that can't possibly be the case. Well, read Daniel Shayesteh's Exodus From Darkness - he was a fanatical Persian Muslim, and he left it and became a Christian - and learn differently. Or read Mark Gabriel, Islam and Terrorism, where he explains exactly how and why he left Islam and became a Christian (hint: NOBODY bribed him, NOBODY tricked him, NOBODY forced him). Or read Hannah Shah, 'The Imam's Daughter' . Or Gulshan Esther, 'The Torn Veil'. All of these are the first-hand stories of people born and brought up Muslim, who became Christians. And force, trickery and bribery had NOTHING to do with it (the only threats and lies they encountered were from *MUSLIMS*).

Get a clue, mate.

This man *freely*, as was his human right, chose to change his religion and to communicate his new religion. He chose a different faith from the - atrocious - belief system into which through no choice of his own he had been raised. The belief system that has RUINED his homeland. The belief system that MURDERED or force-converted his Zoroastrian - or, perhaps, Christian, that is possible - or even, perhaps, *Jewish*, that also is possible - ancestors. Why should he not, supposing his forebears were Christian, embrace the Christian faith? Jesus was and is a Jew: if there were Jews among this man's ancestors, and there might well be (what if among his forebears was a Jewish girl seized and raped by a Muslim?), then he has 'come home' to the Lord, who is a Jew.

Furthermore: if you dare to claim that Christianity is no different from Islam, or that it teaches the same things, or that always and everywhere it has only ever been able to gain converts by using evil Muslim-type methods - force, trickery, lies, bribes - then you are damn well talking nonsense and lies. Indeed, you are engaging in slander. Read Mr Spencer's 'Religion of Peace: why Christianity Is and Islam Isn't', and get a clue.

And if you've swallowed the abominable Muslim lie about 'three Abrahamic religions', read Rosenzweig, 'The Star of Redemption', or Mark Durie, 'Revelation? Do We Worship the Same God? Jesus, God, Holy Spirit in Christianity and Islam', and learn differently. Muslims *pretend* that their 'allah' is 'the same as' the God of the Jews and the Christians; but it ISN'T. What their 'religion' teaches people to do is utterly different from what Jews and Christians learn to do.

And for that matter, if you think that Islam, the religion of de facto human sacrifice, the 'religion' whose followers think rape is an act of devotion and cutting off the head of a helpless bound captive is an act of devotion (they say that 'killing Jews is an act of worship that brings us [Arab Muslims] closer to allah'), the religion of blood and war, the religion of hate, murder and lies, leads to 'the same god' as any other belief system, do please rethink.

PS I think you are lying when you say that the only reason that anybody converts to Christianity in India is because they are paid/ bribed.

Bribing people to convert is what Muslims do, and it is wrong.

Jesus did NOT tell his followers to force people to convert, to bribe them, or to trick them. If ever people calling themselves Christian have done that, then they were not following Jesus.

However, he did tell his followers to proclaim the good news - that is, to *communicate* and explain to others what they believed, to tell other people about Jesus, who he was, what he did. And then it is entirely up to the hearers to say yes or no.

'like all the rivers reach the ocean all faiths lead to the same God'.

No they don't...To believe that, you have to believe Allah is God...He's not...

'And for their fool-hardy missionary ways, they have to pay the price'.

You think being murdered is a fair price to pay?

You say Christian Missionaries bribe the poor and convert them.What earthly benefit these Missionaries get by doing so? Is it not possible for the so called converted person to revert back to his old religion after reciving that money?Most of the converts are shunned and neglected for generations by high caste Hindus as untouchables . After converting, they never want to return to their old faith as they get education and a place in society.This irks the so called high class Hindus-paricularly Brahmins,who has supressed them for ages and kept as untouchables.Converting is not a sin as long it is done in one's own freewill.The Hindu Hare Rama Krishna movement are doing the conversion work in western countries.No body objects nor prevents them.

Hare Krishna is a cult - to claim that they are converting people into mainstream Hinduism is like claiming that Jehovah's Witnesses convert people to Christianity.

But I do agree w/ DDA - the missionaries have every right to preach what they like. As far as India goes, I would respect them more if they were to try converting Muslims to Christianity, instead of Hindu tribes in remote areas of India. If India's Muslim population were to become 15% Christian, it would be a lot less destabilizing for India.

As for the claims about casteism, it's pretty much seeped into both Muslim and Christian communities as well, so it's not like as Christians, they wouldn't be confronted about their caste status. And usually, w/ religious conversions, whether into Islam or Christianity, they don't end up in a different level caste than what they started in.

You are wrong in stating that billions of dollars coming into India for converting people.That is the lies the Brahmins spread as they fear these 'untochable Hindus' slip thier authorities,which they were enjoying for centuries. Well-tell me don't these down trodden people,after conversion to Christianity out of their own free will come up in life,get a good education and stand as dignified human beings? Do the Missionaries fleece them to their own benefit after conversion?They lead a better ,dignified life and they know it.Those are the real facts-you better ask any convert.

this iranian is high on hashish. iranians are so sick of religion it is even funny.
m

The oddly self-styled "Lucky411" wrote:

Christian missionaries try conversion at all odds in non christian countries- come what may.
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What rot. It is Muslims who convert at sword point, and kidnap, rape, and forcibly convert victims. To imply that Christians try conversion at "all odds"—I presume he means here by any methods—is simply false.

More:

I have repeatedly insisting in similar comments christian missionaries bribe or coerce the innocent people to convert to christianity.
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Since there is no penalty for apostasizing out of Christianity, this simply makes no sense. Anyone could simply accept such a "bribe", temporarily convert (or just pretend to convert) and then leave Christianity once that "bribe" was spent.

I believe what "Lucky" *really* means is that his is upset that so many Christians help people through charity—running schools, hospitals, and orphanages—and argue that such freely given largess, offered to *people of all creeds*, simply makes others 'look bad', and gives Christians an "unfair" advantage.

More:

In countries like Iran where religious extremism is high, what is the need for conversion to christianity? Such attempts are criminal given the circumstances.
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Notice that "Lucky" has *no* problem with homicidal Muslim violently crushing people's freedom of conscience—instead, he believes that Christians offering spiritutal consolation to those trapped in a vicious, loveless creed are the problem. Sickening.
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Iran Is not India. And for their fool-hardy missionary ways, they have to pay the price.
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Good to know that when anyone dares to challenge savagery, that you stand with the savages. **Ugh**.

And you might say just the same thing about Jihad Watch—how dare Robert Spencer speak out on freedom of speech and the barbarism of Islam, when he knows that some pious Muslims will threaten his life and the lives of any who might agree with him?

Surely, as you see it, any who dare to speak out against Jihad are fool-hardy, and they will have to pay the price...

Duh swami

Have I ever told you, mate, just how much I appreciate you?

Your reply made above (January 13 2013, at 4: 06 AM) to the vapourings of 'Lucky411', was so much more succinct than mine, and pretty much said all that needed to be said.

And Gravenimage, above, made the other point that I wish *I* had thought of making, when she said (it's worth repeating):

"Since there is no penalty for apostasizing out of Christianity, this [the claim that people are being paid or bribed to become Christians - dda] simply makes no sense. Anyone could simply accept such a "bribe", temporarily convert (or just pretend to convert) and then leave Christianity once that "bribe" was spent."

"If India's Muslim population were to become 15% Christian, it would be a lot less destabilizing for India. "

Not necessarily; knowing Muslims, the ongoing attempt could have the opposite effect. Unless a society is ready to do what's necessary to handle a few million mad hornets, don't go poking sticks in their nests willy-nilly and/or starry-eyed.

Makes no difference whether Christians evangelise or don't evangelise - and these days a lot of the evangelising is happening without 'boots on the ground', anyway, via internet, podcasts, and radio (once one has translations of scripture in the relevant vernaculars, all one does is beam it out via the radio waves), all of which people are perfectly free to tune into or tune out of, and quite a lot of Muslim 'seekers', the people on their way out, are finding their way to these sources of Alternative Information) - we all know already that Muslims riot whether they're 'provoked' or not.

They swarm out, frothing with rage, as and when their jihad gang bosses *tell* them to; and if those bosses don't have an excuse, they *manufacture* one out of whole cloth.

There is a further point, LL.

This is not just about human experience, human wisdom, human prudence. You talk as if it were all up to us, to do or not do something.

YHWH has a mind of his own, and if at long last he moves to free many Indian Muslims - and other Muslims, in other countries - from Islam, it may happen almost independently of and out of all proportion to any human effort or action that is or has been involved.

How do you propose to stop it if, in response to decades, centuries of prayers of Christians for the conversion of Muslims, something *happens*, some seismic shift in the spiritual realms, as it has indeed begun, just a bit, to happen in Iran, or in Algeria? The church there is very small, indeed; but two hundred years ago it was entirely *nonexistent* and nobody would have believed, back then, that in either country there might be a church numbering in the thousands, all of them converts from Islam.