#MyJihad in Libya: Westerners flee as jihadis threaten new kidnappings and jihad murders

“It is becoming clear that al Qaeda is spreading in the Sahara.”

“We achieved our central goal … or have come very close to achieving our central goal, which is to de-capacitate al Qaeda, to dismantle them, to make sure that they can’t attack us again.” — Barack Obama, January 11, 2013

“As Muslim terrorists threaten attacks in Benghazi, Westerners flee,” from Asia News, January 25 (thanks to C. Cantoni):

Benghazi (AsiaNews/Agencies) – Great Britain, Germany, the Netherlands and Australia have urged their citizens to leave the Libyan city of Benghazi due to a “specific, imminent threat to Westerners”, linked to French action in Mali and the danger of new kidnappings by Muslim extremists.

According to British diplomatic sources, Islamists have threatened to carry out attacks against Western targets like the one on the US consulate on 11 September 2011 in which US Ambassador to Libya Christopher Stevens and three other Americans were killed.

Over the past two years since the anti-Gaddafi war, Benghazi has been one of the main recruiting centres for Islamic extremists and al-Qaeda fighters.

A senior Algerian officer claimed that the organisers of the Benghazi consulate attack are the same who seized the gas Tigantourine field in (in In Amenas, south-eastern Algeria) that left 38 hostages and 29 Muslim extremists dead.

The group recruited by Mokhtar Belmokhtar included several Egyptian jihadists active in Libya.

Sources in Algiers said that Mohamed-Lamine Bouchneb, the militant leading the attack at the site, had purchased arms for the assault in the Libyan capital, Tripoli.

The kidnappers gathered, undisturbed, at the southern Libyan town of Ghat, just across the border from Algeria, before their attack.

It is becoming clear that al Qaeda is spreading in the Sahara. On Wednesday, US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton spoke to Congress about the events in Benghazi, warning that Jihadist groups have formed a complex alliance in North Africa with southern Libya and Mali as their main bases.

Indeed, Mokhtar Belmokhtar, the veteran militant who claimed overall responsibility for the Tigantourine attack, is believed to be based in Mali.

US State Department officials have said that some members of Ansar al-Shariah, the group that carried out the attack on the diplomatic mission in Benghazi, had connections to al Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb, one of the militant groups now holding northern Mali.

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Comments

  1. says

    Another example of muslims helping Christians by preventing radicals from burning non-english bibles:

    Heavy police surveillance will be placed on a field in front of Dewan Ahmad Badawi in Bagan Luar, Butterworth on Saturday, ahead of a purported “festival” to torch copies of Malay-language bibles there.

    Penang police chief DCP Datuk Abd Rahim Hanafi said the police will not hesitate to take stern action against any groups or individuals who turn up at the site to take part in the event:

    http://my.news.yahoo.com/penang-police-alert-for-bible-burning-fest-064015229.html

  2. says

    Great Britain, Germany, the Netherlands and Australia have urged their citizens to leave the Libyan city of Benghazi due to a “specific, imminent threat to Westerners”

    ~~~~~~~~~~~

    There’s ALWAYS an imminent threat somewhere in the world, where islam and company are concerned, and not just to Westerners. Hey I can’t think of a time when the evil, dark cloud of islam hadn’t darkened the door of each and every one of us, in one form or another. Yea we can always count on death, taxes …and islam & co.

  3. says

    Quite an achievement in Libya by our severely imbecillic Western democracies. Socipaths are calling all the shots in our Western democracies. Sociopaths. Both wicked and zombie-brainless. And neoconuses. Neoconuses. Dastardly neoconuses and neoliberals.
    The Zionists alone have been right all along. Warning that the Arab Spring will turn into the Arab Winter.
    Now, the Western democracies are reaping harvest after harvest from the Arab Spring.

    Ruslan Tokhchukov, EnragdSince1999.

  4. says

    #MyJihad in Libya: Westerners flee as jihadis threaten new kidnappings and jihad murders

    “It is becoming clear that al Qaeda is spreading in the Sahara.”

    “We achieved our central goal … or have come very close to achieving our central goal, which is to de-capacitate al Qaeda, to dismantle them, to make sure that they can’t attack us again.” — Barack Obama, January 11, 2013
    ………………………….

    And that was”what?”all of two weeks ago?

    What stupidity. It is clear that not only are the “Islamists” much stronger in the region in general, but so is Al Qaida itself. They now have their own Shari’ah state in northern Mali from wichich to wage violent Jihad.

    More:

    “As Muslim terrorists threaten attacks in Benghazi, Westerners flee”
    ………………………….

    Here’s Muslim apologist darmanad, claiming that our diplomatic staff in Benghazi was likely murdered by a “a small extremist group that had no broad popular support” that is being “pursued by the Libya law enforcement authorities”:

    http://www.jihadwatch.org/2013/01/robert-spencer-hillary-lets-the-jihadist-cat-out-of-bag.html#comment-927986

    That “tiny minority of extremists” is, oddly, quite large and influential. Odd how that keeps happening.

    More:

    Benghazi (AsiaNews/Agencies) – Great Britain, Germany, the Netherlands and Australia have urged their citizens to leave the Libyan city of Benghazi due to a “specific, imminent threat to Westerners”, linked to French action in Mali and the danger of new kidnappings by Muslim extremists.
    ………………………….

    Of course, that “French action in Mali” is attempting to reclaim the territory that has been seized by “Islamists” who have set up a Shari’ah state there, are are now amputating the limbs of suspected petty thieves and are stoning unmarried couples to death and leaving their children orphans.

    More:

    It is becoming clear that al Qaeda is spreading in the Sahara. On Wednesday, US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton spoke to Congress about the events in Benghazi, warning that Jihadist groups have formed a complex alliance in North Africa with southern Libya and Mali as their main bases.
    ………………………….

    Is her boss Barack Obama upset that she has contradicted his absurd claim of two weeks ago, or are too few people paying attention for it to matter?

  5. says

    From the article: “Great Britain, Germany, the Netherlands and Australia have urged their citizens to leave the Libyan city of Benghazi due to a “specific, imminent threat to Westerners”, linked to French action in Mali and the danger of new kidnappings by Muslim extremists.”

    I wouldn’t try too hard to convince any *Muslims* who happen to currently possess Australian, British, German or Dutch passports, to return; *they* are perfectly welcome to remain in Libya as long as they like, preferably, indeed, for ever. Any Muslims who currently hold Aussie passports, but are in Libya – who have, perhaps, gone to Libya to wage jihad and perhaps even to indulge in some of those attacks upon non-Muslims and upon deemed-insufficiently-Islamic Muslims that are now being threatened- can stay in Libya forever, and never come back to Australia. That would suit me just fine. Now, if only my fool government would start *cancelling* the citizenship of such Muslims as, possessing Aussie passports, go waltzing off to assorted jihad ‘hotspots’ within the Islamosphere, and making sure that such could *not* return…we’d be getting somewhere.

  6. says

    As per a report from Reuters,

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/01/24/us-britain-benghazi-threat-usa-idUSBRE90N1BH20130124

    ‘U.S. and European officials are downplaying the risk to Americans posed by the latest threats from Islamic militants who have vowed to target Westerners in Benghazi, Libya.

    One reason is that the alleged threats are explicitly directed against European nationals, said U.S. and European sources.

    Also, few if any U.S. citizens now are believed to be in Benghazi.’

    Are the jihadis interested in or capable of differenciating between Europeans & Americans?

    What kind of nonsense advice the US is giving to its citizens?

  7. says

    Obama wanted the war against Gaddafi, so did McCain. Gaddafi fell, now the danger of the result is now being seen by the world. Even France now sees the danger, and the ones who wanted war did not think long term.

    War has a way of being fluid, even if you think you won. The progressives see these wars as the end to their own means.

    And now, those who wanted Libia to fall want another action, Syria.

    Beware of the progressives, reject them all, before it is too late.

  8. says

    There is also this:

    “An Example in the Koran of a Holy Man of Allah that comes close to Justifying Honor Killings:the Case of Moses and Al-Khidr(the Green Man)”

    http://www.antisharia.com/2013/01/26/an-example-in-the-koran-of-a-holy-man-of-allah-that-comes-close-to-justifying-honor-killingsthe-case-of-moses-and-al-khidrthe-green-man/

    AND ALSO

    “Theodora,Greatest Woman of the Byzantine Empire,and a Comparison between Justinian,her Husband,and Sultan Suleiman”

    http://www.antisharia.com/2011/08/04/theodoragreatest-woman-of-the-byzantine-empireand-a-comparison-between-justinianher-husbandand-sultan-suleiman/

  9. says

    The jihad is burning hot and spreading like wild fire across North Africa.

    Question: What is driving this bloodlust to create more Sharia states? What have these Muslims been reading? What instruction manual, so to speak, are they following?

    Answer: The Qur’an, hadith and sira.

    No wonder Westerners are fleeing. No wonder Great Britain, Germany, the Netherlands and Australia are urging their citizens to leave. Looks like the “Arab Spring” is sprouting Islamic weeds. That tends to happen when Muslims have he Qur’an, the hadith, and the sira as their guiding light. No shit.

    We ex-Muslims living with Islam’s formal and informal death penalty for apostasy know that the cruel, über violent cult of Mohammedanism is a despicable fraud.

    It is easy for one Muslim to get another Muslim to kill for Islam. It’s just a matter of quoting a few of Islam’s canonical texts and heads will readily roll and blood will steadily flow – literally. One honest and in-depth look at the life and words of moohammed the mad prophet of Islam and Islamic history will show and tell you that.

    >>>>>

    Hadith, Sahih Bukhari Vol.4, Bk.52, Number. 46:

    “I heard Allah’s Apostle saying, ‘Allah guarantees that He will admit the Muslim fighter into Paradise if he is killed, otherwise He will return him to his home safely with rewards and booty.'”

    Sahih Bukhari: Vol.4, Bk.52, Number.72:

    “The Prophet said, ‘Nobody who enters Paradise likes to go back to the world even if he got everything on the earth, except a Mujahid [Islamic fighter] who wishes to return so that he may be martyred ten times because of the dignity he receives.’ Our Prophet told us about the message of Allah: ‘Whoever among us is killed will go to Paradise.’ Umar asked the Prophet, ‘Is it not true that our men who are killed will go to Paradise and those of the Pagan’s will go to Hell?’ The Prophet said, ‘Yes.'”

    Sahih Bukhari: Vol.4, Bk.52, Number.63:

    “A man whose face was covered with an iron mask came to the Prophet and said, ‘Shall I fight or embrace Islam first.’ The Prophet said, ‘Embrace Islam and then fight.’ He became a Muslim and was martyred. The Prophet said, ‘A little work, but a great reward.”

    Sahih Bukhari: Vol.4, Bk.52, Number.276:

    “By Allah, we saw the Meccan women running, revealing their leg-bangles. So, we cried out, ‘The booty! O Muslims, the booty! Our Companions have become victorious. What are we waiting for? By Allah! We will go to the pagans and collect our share of the war booty.'”

    Sahih Bukhari: Vol.4, Bk.55, Number.657:

    “Allah’s Messenger said, ‘Isa (Jesus), the son of Mariam, will shortly descend amongst you Muslims and will judge mankind by the law of the Qur’an. He will break the cross and kill the swine [Jews] and there will be no Jizyah tax taken from non-Muslims. Money will be so abundant no one will accept it. So you may recite this Holy Verse: “Isa (Jesus) was just a human being before his death. On the Day of Resurrection he (Jesus) will be a witness against the Christians.”‘”

    Qur’an 9:88
    The Messenger and those who believe with him, strive hard and fight with their wealth and lives in Allah’s Cause.

    Qur’an 9:5
    Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.

    Qur’an 9:112
    The Believers fight in Allah’s Cause, they slay and are slain, kill and are killed.

    Qur’an 9:29
    Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission.

    Qur’an:8:39 “Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah.”

    Qur’an:8:39 “So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world).”

    Qur’an:9:14 “Fight them and Allah will punish them by your hands, lay them low, and cover them with shame. He will help you over them.”

    Qur’an:8:65 “O Prophet, urge the faithful to fight. If there are twenty among you with determination they will vanquish two hundred; if there are a hundred then they will slaughter a thousand unbelievers, for the infidels are a people devoid of understanding.”

    Qur’an:9:38 “Believers, what is the matter with you, that when you are asked to go forth and fight in Allah’s Cause you cling to the earth? Do you prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? Unless you go forth, He will afflict and punish you with a painful doom, and put others in your place.”

    Qur’an:9:123 “Fight the unbelievers around you, and let them find harshness in you.”

    >>>>>

    Political Islam has Islam mapped out:

    At least 75% of the Sira (biographies of Muhammad and quotes attributed to him) is about jihad.

    The largest part of the Islamic texts (the Qur’an, hadith and sira) relate to the treatment of unbelievers, kafirs. Approximately 67% of the Qur’an written in Mecca is about the unbelievers, or politics. Of the Qur’an of Medina, 51% is devoted to the unbelievers.

    Mohammed preached his religion for 13 years and garnered only 150 followers. But when he turned to politics and war, in 10 years time he became the first ruler of Arabia by averaging an event of violence every 7 weeks for 9 years. His success did not come as a religious leader, but as a political leader.

    Political Islam asks: What is the real jihad? The jihad of inner spiritual struggle, or the jihad of war?

    Statistical analysis of the Bukhari hadith (considered by Muslims to be the most authentic of the hadith collections) show that Muhammad repeatedly speaks of jihad. In Bukhari, 97% of the jihad references are about war, and 3% are about the inner struggle. So the statistical answer is that jihad is 97% war and 3% inner struggle.

    There are 146 references to Hell in the Qur’an. Only 6% of those in Hell are there for moral failings ” murder, theft, etc. The other 94% of the reasons for being in Hell are for the intellectual sin of disagreeing with Mohammed, a political crime.

    Islam is no “the religion of peace”. Islam is primarily a religion of “injustice, intolerance, hatred, and violence.” The fact is, if we non-Muslims were to say about Muslims what the Qur’an says about us, we would be arrested for hate speech. The Qur’an largely preaches discrimination, death, and imposition of its dogma on everyone. Certainly some Muslims will be offended by such statements, but frankly, so what? Judaism and Christianity, the world’s two other major monotheistic religions, have had to face the harshest of scrutiny and criticism for several hundred years which continues to this day. Islam must not be granted any special privileges or be exempt from such treatment – the implications are of tremendous importance.

    Here is a recent statement from a group of Bangladeshi apostates living in the UK explaining the reasons why they have abandoned Islam:

    “One who claims to be a messenger of God is expected to live a saintly life. He must not be given to lust, he must not be a sexual pervert, and he must not be a rapist, a highway robber, a war criminal, a mass murderer or an assassin. One who claims to be a messenger of God must have a superior character. He must stand above the vices of the people of his time. Yet Muhammad’s life is that of a gangster godfather. He raided merchant caravans, looted innocent people, massacred entire male populations and enslaved the women and children. He raped the women captured in war after killing their husbands and told his followers that it is okay to have sex with their captives (Qur’an 33:50). He assassinated those who criticized him and executed them when he came to power and became de facto despot of Arabia. Muhammad was bereft of human compassion. He was an obsessed man with his dreams of grandiosity and could not forgive those who stood in his way…

    The statement continues,

    Muhammad was a narcissist, like Hitler, Saddam or Stalin. He was astute and knew how to manipulate people, but his emotional intelligence was less evolved than that of a 6-year-old child. He simply could not feel the pain of others. He brutally massacred thousands of innocent people and pillaged their wealth. His ambitions were big and as a narcissist he honestly believed he is entitled to do as he pleased and commit all sorts of crimes and his evil deeds are justified.”

  10. says

    As the idea that Jews are a bestial race hated by Allah and no better than apes and pigs is rooted in the divine Koran Kerry calling Morsi reprehensible for saying it has to be construed by devout Moslems as a deeply offensive attack upon their faith. How this undiplomatic remark by Kerry will endear him to Moslems and advance Obama’s Moslem Outreach Initiative-the centerpiece of his incoherent foreign policy-is beyond me.

  11. says

    Small correction

    “…September 2011 in which US Ambassador to Libya Christopher Stevens and three other Americans were killed.”

    It happened in 2012

  12. says

    Viewpoints dropped something stinky and then ran away with no multi link follow up…

    He is very confused…I do my best to confuse him a little more…at some point his multiplying confusions will cause his wires to heat up and a fuse will blow…At that point if we can hit his reset button, his confusions will clear up and he will see the light…
    Gravenimage, DDA, and Champ, can lead him out of the darkness of confusion, and into the light of Islamo-reality……

  13. says

    I just love watching the enemy win as we swallow the bait of making this a democrat-republican issue. We take the bait like a stupid carp and come out saying this is a hate Hussain Obama issue and totally ignore every president from carter has faced these same problems with Islam and failed in finding a solution. Nor are we going solve the problem of Islam by worshipping at the alter of holy newsmax because it plays into the islamist trick of divide to conquer the west. If we fight each other how shall we recognize the real enemy.

    First the West needs to recognize we are at war. We are not at war with rebels in Afgan or Packy or Iraq. Maybe a better way of saying it is Islam is at war with us and we are so out of we cannot recognize the enemy. As long as we say terrorists or radical islam we will fail to really understand the real enemy. ISLAM. there is only one kind of Islam. Jihad is now on the move with ten million potential soldiers on our shore.

    Second we need to learn it is a very different kind of war. A war with no central head or general but multitheaded hydra with many cells with many leaders and when one is killed others springing up spontaneously but sharing the common cause of jihad or diarrhea law over the globe. The question is how do we fight such a war?

    Third we must come to terms with this war needs generals who forget the niceties of Geneva because the current enemy will see this as our weakness. This war is one where a baby will be left on a street corner strapped to a car seat filled with C4. The old rules do not apply in the new war. As one cell head is killed another will rise to fill the quota of jihad blood. We are so afraid of accusations of discrimination and war crimes that we abdicate the battle. We have never been in an all out war before. Even with Hitler there existed a few rules. This war needs to be fought without rules if we wish to save the values of the west and fighting this war will forever change western culture.

    Forth. Can we who live in the illusion of politeness and civility can learn to break the rules for the purpose of survival. Can we give up capitalist, opulent, decadence and muster the resolve to fight a war where blood will drip from our hands. The major question will be do we want to become like them to win?

    This is not a partisan forum but Christian – Islam debate, a crusade if you wish. Let us not dissemble but be certain in resolve. All over the world jihad is on the move and will fight or keep the passive faith by becoming vassal to the new caliphate

  14. says

    I do not understand this hatred and intolerance. My daddy( bless him with a millstone) who is pro-Marge Sanger, anti-Israel, watches al jazeera religiously, sees only love and peace in the Quran, is an avowed atheist and once wrote chairman Mao then HohoHo chi Minh what a great job they were doing has told me personally (as per Mr Zinn, Alinsky, the Blind Shie, Osama, Obama and Oblama and terrorists with box cutters) that they only hate:
    a)everyone but themselves and even each other when there’s no one else to kill.
    The end

  15. says

    Well, we bombed and strafed Moammar Harpo Qaddafi’s Libya so that the Muslim Brotherhood and Qaida sympathizers could have their rights–which apparently include terrorizing anyone who doesn’t agree with them. But, is anyone taking odds that the O’s administration hasn’t learned a thing from this?

  16. says

    I see we want to believe we are bad and deserve punishment for owning slaves two centuries ago. That we should now stand peacefully and accept the sword because we have been bad. You do that!

    You can believe Islam is populated peaceful men like Hank Hill but the fact is your wrong. Most if not all Islamic countries practice slavery in one form or another. It is built into the diarrhea law codes. It has been their practice and will remain so till after the Mahdi.

    If peace is the answer Then follow the path to martyrdom for Islam will give a new law or off with the head. Folks we have been here before. Same war different day

    How do we organize ourselves so we can prepare.

  17. says

    Hmm, the bandersnatch ‘viewpoints’ has turned up in this thread, busy throwing sand as usual.

    My own suspicion is that he isn’t a westerner at all, but rather, a Muslim in a mask.

    However: supposing that he *is* a westerner, a wilfully naive fool who’s swallowed the nonsense peddled by his local da’wa masters, then I suggest that if he truly believes Islam is fine, and that all Muslim lands are getting better and better every day in every way, and that Infidels have *nothing* much to fear, in any Muslim country…

    How’s about he buys a ticket to Libya, or Syria, or Iran, or Saudi Arabia, or Pakistan, or lovely Malaysia or Egypt under the Muslim Brotherhood (I suggest he settles in a neighbourhood inhabited by poor Coptic Christians, in Egypt; if he goes to Pakistan, he can rent a room from a Hindu or a Christian family, and in Malaysia, from a Chinese or Indian non-Muslim family), so that he can enjoy lovely, normal, nice just-like-everybody-else Islamia to the max?

    He claims to have visited some parts of the Islamosphere; but let’s see him go there and *stay* there…and not as a guest in a Muslim house, but **in the middle of one of the remnant non-Muslim communities**. So that he can get the full benefit when the allahu akbaring mob comes screaming down the road from the local mosque.

    PS Australia’s Mark Durie once spent time in Aceh, Indonesia. He was studying the language and literature of the Acehnese. He stayed in the house of a nice smiling Muslimah, such a sweet old lady she was…and her son, he later discovered, had been the ringleader of vicious, murderous Muslim mob attacks upon the local Christians.

  18. says

    “Blessed are the Peacemakers, for they shall be called children of God” — Matthew 5:9

    Yes, but muslims are NOT peacemakers; their aim is to make war or create chaos wherever they go with their evil doctrine, and they certainly are not children of God! They serve satan, not the one true God, so that passage in Matthew does not apply to muslims, nor does it apply to viewpoints.

    muslims need to repent to become children of God–by turning from their life of sin and REBELLION to the one true God. They must forsake islam, and all that it represents, before becoming peacemakers and children of God.

    And claiming that muslims are a-ok or merely “unique”, as this clown claims, is such a bald-faced lie, that it hardly deserves a response except to call out this LIE. This viewpoints character is such a sleezy liar, and he does not deserve to be addressed directly. Like DDA stated, he’s a mohammedan bandwidth hog …and I might add, not a very good liar.

  19. says

    There is more than meets the eye about these bibles.

    They where printed in Indonesia, where christians do not use Allah, but Tuhan. So I can not understand why the Indonesians used Allah instead of Tuhan.

    I strongly suspect it was an attempt by the Indonesians to islamize the bible, also the Malay language.

    Christians in Indonesia always use Tuhan when referring to god

    Etymology
    From tuhan, from Proto-Malayic *tuan, from Proto-Malayo-Polynesian *qatuan.

    Alternative forms
    tuhan
    توهن

    Pronunciation
    IPA: /tuhan/
    Rhymes: -uhan, -han, -an

    Proper noun
    Tuhan (Jawi spelling توهن)
    God (single god of monotheism)
    (Islam) Allah

    Graven claims that the bibles where destroyed when in fact 5,000 Bibles have been stamped with serial numbers, government seals and warnings that the books are meant for Christians only.

    Graven totally misses the point that the bibles where desecrated while still at the printers, If the bible where in the Malay Language, the word Allah should not have been in the bible.

    Graven blatantly lies about the bibles so as to discredit Viewpoint, when she could quite have easily pointed out that when 11 churches were attacked by firebombs amid anger among some Muslims because of Allah being used in the bibles.

  20. says

    There is more than meets the eye about these bibles.

    They where printed in Indonesia, where christians do not use Allah, but Tuhan. So I can not understand why the Indonesians used Allah instead of Tuhan.

    I strongly suspect it was an attempt by the Indonesians to islamize the bible, also the Malay language.

    Christians in Indonesia always use Tuhan when referring to god

    Etymology
    From tuhan, from Proto-Malayic *tuan, from Proto-Malayo-Polynesian *qatuan.

    Alternative forms
    tuhan
    توهن

    Pronunciation
    IPA: /tuhan/
    Rhymes: -uhan, -han, -an

    Proper noun
    Tuhan (Jawi spelling توهن)
    God (single god of monotheism)
    (Islam) Allah

    Graven claims that the bibles where destroyed when in fact 5,000 Bibles have been stamped with serial numbers, government seals and warnings that the books are meant for Christians only.

    Graven totally misses the point that the bibles where desecrated while still at the printers, If the bible where in the Malay Language, the word Allah should not have been in the bible.

    Graven blatantly lies about the bibles so as to discredit Viewpoint, when she could quite have easily pointed out that when 11 churches were attacked by firebombs amid anger among some Muslims because of Allah being used in the bibles.

  21. says

    ps …

    Also, true “Peacemakers” do not need to tell lies or play games, as viewpoints has done. They present the TRUTH.

    Presenting muslims as merely “unique” would be funny if it weren’t such a bald-faced lie. And I’ve had my moniker for over 8 years now, so why does this poster hide behind different names every chance he gets; if he’s such a stand-up guy? ..well, he isn’t, that’s why.

    So lying about muslims eclipses any *supposed* attempts at being a peacemaker; and the frequency of changing his moniker only reveals more dishonesty. Yea he gives true peacemakers a bad reputation.

  22. says

    …and true “Peacemakers” fight against evil and stand for what’s right by presenting the TRUTH; especially where islam and company are concerned.

    Peacemakers are NOT doormats!

  23. says

    Ladies and gentlemen

    I have stated, before, that ‘viewpoints’ is a mohammedan in a mask, a BS artist and bandwidth thief.

    Every posting he makes confirms me in my view as to his identity and aims.

    Observe the shower of mingled sand and sh*t that he has emitted in this thread – much of which ‘Gravenimage’ has patiently dealt with, item by item – in the hopes of distracting, confusing and demoralising those who are new to this site and this subject.

    Advice to every non-Muslim who happens to read this, now or in the future.

    Go right back up to the top and re-read the posted article.

    And then, to completely clear your head of viewpoints’ nonsensically false claim that Muslims – like a certain famous film actress of the past – just want to be left alone, and that jihad is a purely reactive or ‘defensive’ action, that jihad is ’caused’ by the mean ol’ infidels doing them (Muslims) wrong, and that if we would only leave them in peace, and refrain from disturbing them in any way, they would leave *us* alone, read the articles you will find at the following links.

    They discuss the classical doctrine of Jihad, briefly and clearly.

    1/ Jacques Ellul, French sociologist, on the Jihad.

    http://www.dhimmi.org/Foreword.html

    “..a major, twofold fact transforms the jihad into something quite different from traditional wars, waged for ambition and self-interest, with limited objectives, where the “normal” situation is peace between peoples – war, in itself, constituting a dramatic event which must end in a return to peace.

    “This twofold factor is first the religious nature, then the fact that war has become an institution (and no longer an “event”).

    ” Jihad is generally translated as “holy war” (this term is not satisfactory): and this suggests both that this war is provoked by strong religious feeling, and then that its first object is not so much to conquer land as to Islamize the populations.

    “This war is a religious duty.

    “It will probably be said that every religion in its expanding phase carries the risks of war, that history records hundreds of religious wars and it is now a commonplace to make this connection. Hence, religious passion is thus sometimes expressed in this manner. But it is, in fact, “passion” – it concerns mainly a fact which it would be easy to demonstrate does not correspond to the fundamental message of the religion. This disjuncture is obvious for Christianity.

    “**In Islam, on the contrary, jihad is a religious obligation. It forms part of the duties that the believer must fulfil; it is Islam’s normal path to expansion. ** {my emphasis – dda}.

    ” And this is found repeatedly dozens of times in the Koran.

    “Therefore, the believer is not denying the religious message. Quite the reverse, jihad is the way he best obeys it.

    “And the facts which are recorded meticulously and analyzed clearly [by Bat Yeor, in ‘The Decline of Eastern Christianity Under Islam’, for which Ellul wrote this mini-essay on Jihad, by way of preface – dda] show that the jihad is not a “spiritual war” but a real military war of conquest.

    ” It expresses the agreement between the “fundamental book” and the believers’ practical strivings.

    “But Bat Ye’or shows that things are not so simple.

    “Since the jihad is not solely an external war, it can break out within the Muslim world itself – and wars among Muslims have been numerous, but always with the same features.

    “Hence, the second important specific characteristic is that the jihad is an institution and not an event, that is to say it is part of the normal functioning of the Muslim world…”.

    “…it is most essential to grasp that the jihad is an institution in itself; that is to say, an organic piece of Muslim society.

    “As a religious duty, it fits into the religious organization, like pilgrimages, and so on.

    “However, this is not the essential factor, which derives from the division of the world in the (religious) thought of Islam.

    “The world, as Bat Ye’or brilliantly shows, is divided [by Islam, by Muslims – dda] into two regions: the dar al-Islam and the dar al-harb, in other words: the “domain of Islam” and “the domain of war”.

    “The world is no longer divided into nations, peoples, tribes. Rather, they are all located en bloc in the world of war, where war is the only possible relationship with the outside world.

    “The earth belongs to Allah and all its inhabitants must acknowledge this reality; to achieve this goal there is but one method: war.

    “War, then, is clearly an institution, not just an incidental or fortuitous institution, but a constituent part of the thought, the organization and the structures of this world.

    “Peace with this world of war is impossible.

    “Of course, it is sometimes necessary to call a halt; there are circumstances where it is better not to make war. The Koran makes provision for this. But this changes nothing: war remains an institution, which means that it must resume as soon as circumstances permit.

    “I have greatly stressed the characteristics of this war, because there is so much talk nowadays of the tolerance and fundamental pacifism of Islam that it is necessary to recall its nature, which is fundamentally warlike!…”.

    2/ Conor Cruise O’Brien, in 1995, on the resurgence of Jihad.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/the-lesson-of-algeria-islam-is-indivisible-1566770.html

    CONOR CRUISE O’BRIEN
    Friday 6 January 1995
    The lesson of Algeria: Islam is indivisible

    Excerpt:

    “Fundamentalist Islam” is a misnomer which dulls our perceptions in a dangerous way. It does so by implying that there is some other kind of Islam, which is well disposed to those who reject the Koran. There isn’t.

    “Islam is a universalist, triumphalist and political religion. It claims de jure dominion over all humanity; that is God’s will.

    “The actual state of affairs, with unbelievers of various sorts dominating most of the world, is a suspension of God’s will anda scandal to the faithful.

    “The world is divided [by Islam – dda] between the House of Islam and the House of War, meaning the rest of us.

    “For more than two centuries now, the House of War has been in the ascendant, and the House of Islam has been abased.

    “The remedy for this unnatural and intolerable state of affairs is jihad.

    ” Jihad is defined as “the religious duty imposed on all Muslims to wage war upon those who do not accept the doctrines of Islam”.

    “The Prophet Mohamed himself not merely preached but waged jihad. God’s word, dictated to the Prophet and preached by him, is binding on all Muslims, and his example is their inspiration…

    “The Prophet Mohamed did not offer his followers a chance to live in harmony with their neighbours.

    “He taught them to fight their neighbours, if they were unbelievers, and kill them or beat them into submission.

    “And it is futile to say of those Muslims who faithfully follow those teachings today that their actions are “not intrinsically related to Islam”.

    3/ Patrick L. Moore, in 1994, on the Jihad, and on deception. Loads of impeccable scholarly references. A classic.

    http://www.newenglishreview.org/blog_direct_link.cfm/blog_id/26087

    Monday, 22 February 2010
    From The Annals Of Serendip: Patrick L. Moore

    http://www.ewtn.com/library/ISSUES/GUERRA.HTM

    FROM “COLD WAR” TO GUERRA FRIA?
    Patrick L. Moore

    Money quote:
    “There are five especially critical aspects about Islam’s doctrine of jihad which must be brought out to properly understand the significance of Islam as it relates to the United States and the West.

    “In summary, the meaning of jihad in its primary sense is military and coercive;

    “it is central to the universalist doctrine of the Islamic belief system;

    “its operational aim is political domination of non-Islamic territories (i.e. rather than forced conversion);

    **it is offensive or aggressive in nature in the first instance (and not merely “defensive”);** {my emphasis – dda}

    ” and, finally, jihad is continuous in character (i.e. pending the ultimate victory of the forces of Islam).”

    And for good measure, a blackly funny but also most enlightening essay by a Bengali ex-Muslim, one ‘Abul Kasem’, on the subject of ‘Whe is Islam Oppressed?’ which exposes the very special Islamic meaning of ‘oppression’, and how it is basically impossible for us dirty kuffar to NOT be regarded as offending and oppressing the Muslims. We do it by breathing-while-kuffar. That’s all it takes. Our very *existence* is a mortal affront to them.

    http://www.islam-watch.org/AbulKasem/IslamOppressed.htm

    When is Islam Oppressed?
    by Abul Kasem
    20 Nov, 2005

  24. says

    And, for good measure, I shall provide links to three classic articles which should immunise any intelligent non-Muslim newcomer against any attempt, by the likes of ‘viewpoints’ to fool us into believing the Muslim pantomime of victimhood.

    First, what I think is probably the best thing that Christopher Hitchens ever wrote, for the London ‘Daily Mirror’, the day after the Muslim jihad ghazi raids upon the London transport system in July 2005.

    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2005/07/08/we-cannot-surrender-115875-15713152/

    WE CANNOT SURRENDER

    Excerpt:
    “We know very well what the “grievances” of the jihadists are.

    “The grievance of seeing unveiled women. The grievance of the existence, not of the State of Israel, but of the Jewish people. The grievance of the heresy of democracy, which impedes the imposition of sharia law. The grievance of a work of fiction written by an Indian living in London. The grievance of the existence of black African Muslim farmers, who won’t abandon lands in Darfur. The grievance of the existence of homosexuals. The grievance of music, and of most representational art. The grievance of the existence of Hinduism. The grievance of East Timor’s liberation from Indonesian rule. All of these have been proclaimed as a licence to kill infidels or apostates, or anyone who just gets in the way…

    “It is a big mistake to believe this is an assault on “our” values or “our” way of life. It is, rather, an assault on all civilisation…”.

    “**The grievances I listed above are unappeasable** {my emphasis – dda}, one of many reasons why the jihadists will lose.

    {Or, rather, *the* reason why the jihadists must be implacably resisted, and their endless whinings and self-justifications resolutely ignored. Why they *have* to be defeated: for the sake of humanity. – dda}.

    “They demand the impossible – the cessation of all life in favour of prostration before a totalitarian vision.

    “Plainly, we cannot surrender. {Rather: ‘we MUST NOT surrender’ – dda}. There is no one with whom to negotiate, let alone capitulate..”.

    Second, one ‘Daniel Greenfield’, at the Sultan Knish blog, on the perils of attempting to appease Muslim ‘grievances’:

    http://sultanknish.blogspot.com/2011/11/dangers-of-legitimizing-islamic.html
    Sunday, November 13, 2011

    The Dangers of Legitimizing Muslim Grievances

    There is no surer path to Muslim violence than through the legitimization of Muslim grievance…”.

    “…Muslim grievances are the frustration of conquerors, the broken teeth of predators who weren’t allowed to feed on the world until their stomachs burst.
    All the lands they couldn’t conquer, the peoples who rebelled against their rule, the inferior civilizations that pushed them back and drove them off…”.

    “…The fundamental Muslim grievance is that they are not in power, not just in Israel where the world has accepted their demand to be in power as a wholly moral and legitimate demand, or throughout the Muslim world where Western governments have helped bring the Islamists to power with bombs and political pressure. The fundamental grievance is that they are not in power… everywhere…”.

    I encourage persons new to this site or this subject, who may never have heard of ‘Daniel Greenfield’, and who may have skimmed through ‘viewpoints’ endless screeds in this thread, to read that Daniel’s piece slowly and carefully, two or three times. *Then*, and then only, pick one of Viewpoints’ longer postings, and read it; and you will see *exactly* what he is all about.

    And, finally, one Hugh Fitzgerald, a longtime former contributor here, on the subject of the 95 things that ‘fuel’ Muslim extremism.

    http://www.jihadwatch.org/2006/10/fitzgerald-95-things-that-fuel-muslim-extremism.html

    Again, click on the link, read through the list, and then meditate upon the way in which Mohammedan jihadists, whiners, squawkers, fomenters and enablers of Jihad, somehow *always* have some grievance du jour, all ready to trot out.

    Oh, and for good measure, amuse yourself – if you haven’t seen it before – by taking a squiz at the long, long, long and frequently ridiculous list of ‘things that offend Muslims’.

    http://amboytimes.typepad.com/the_amboy_times/2007/02/the_list_of_thi.html

    FEBRUARY 12, 2007
    The List of Things That Offend Muslims

    “The intent of the list is to illustrate the futility of the multicultural approach to Islam. Sharia law demands submission not only from Muslims, but from non-Muslims as well. This makes respectful coexistence nearly impossible with Muslims in Infidel lands.

    “The examples below serve as reminder that submitting to one complaint or another only emboldens Muslims to seek to further their ultimate goal of establishing sharia.”

    Sample (there are links in the original, some of which may have broken, because this site has been going for awhile):

    Movies/TV/Theater/Radio

    “The Movie “The Passion of the Christ” The Italian Film, ‘Il mercante di pietre’ (The Stone Merchant)
”24″, Disney’s “Aladdin”, Theo Van Gogh’s “Submission”, A French play by Voltaire, “Looking for Comedy in the Muslim World” Rubber duck hostage video, Ohio CarAd, The Movie ,”300″ PBS Documentary “Islam v Islamists”, Jihad, the Musical, True Lies the Movie, Michael Savage, Paul Harvey, You Tube, Fitna the Movie, Bruce Almighty, Evan Almighty, Stage Version of the Satanic Verses, “Life of Mohammad” Movie, Bridgitte Bardot, Indian Soap Operas, Music Shops, Chicken Run, Saving Private Ryan, 1977 Movie, Mohammad, Messanger of God, the film “Crossing Over” Egyptian actor Amr Waked, Fiddler on the Roof, Satellite TV owners, Obsession the movie, Denver disk jockeys Joey Teehan, Dean Myers and Roger Beaty.”

  25. says

    For the benefit of anyone who may have persevered thus far, struggling through the showers of sand flung out by ‘viewpoints’, I will link to a most illuminating little piece by Australian scholar and priest, Rev Dr Mark Durie, who knows a great deal about Islam and about Christianity as well. Dr Durie lists ‘twelve bad ideas’ that are preventing people within the west from adequately coming to grips with Islam.

    Here it is: A Dozen Bad Ideas.

    http://www.newenglishreview.org/blog_direct_link.cfm/blog_id/32625

    and again, at his own blogspot,

    http://markdurie.blogspot.com/2011/02/twelve-bad-ideas-for-21st-century.html

    I will reproduce it in full, because I think you will see that ‘viewpoints’ subscribes to – or is cleverly attempting to invoke in his hearers, for the purpose of causing confusion – a good few of those Bad Ideas.

    Read it, and then select one of viewpoints’ longer and more convoluted posts, and see how many of those ‘bad ideas’ are being invoked therein.

    So: Twelve Bad Ideas.

    “Here is a list of false beliefs and modes of thought which make it hard for people in the West to come to terms with the challenge of Islam today.

    ” If you are deeply attached to any of these ideas or ways of thinking, you will have difficulty accepting the truth about Islam’s teachings and their impact.

    1/ The belief that all religions are the same.

    – They are not. Different faiths make different claims about what is true, and about what is right and wrong and produce radically different societies.

    The same is true for different political ideologies: consider the different trajectories of North and South Korea.

    Atheists have helped entrench this belief, because to acknowledge material differences between religions would undermine the atheist (and radical secularist) narrative.

    2/ The belief that religion is irrelevant as a cause of anything.

    – According to this view, religion can be exploited or hijacked as an excuse or an instrument (e.g. of oppression – such as an “opiate of the masses’), but not BE an underlying cause of anything.

    Marxist ideology has made a significant contribution to establishing this belief.

    In accordance with this assumption, security analysts all over the Western world presuppose that religion cannot be the cause of terrorism: so they and the politicans they advise must say that terrorists have “hijacked’ religion.


    3/ The belief that we all worship the same God.
    – We do not.
    Thousands of different gods are worshipped by people on this earth.
    These gods manifest different characteristics, and make different demands.
    The worship of them forms very different kinds of people and communities.

    4/ The belief that one can justify anything from any sacred text.
    – This is not true.
    It is a postmodern fallacy that all meaning is in the eye of the beholder.
    Certain texts lends themselves to supporting particular beliefs and practices much more than others.

    5/ The belief that the Christian Reformation was a progressive movement.
    – This is not true.
    In fact the Christian Reformers aimed to go back to the example and teaching of Christ and the apostles.

    Throughout the whole medieval period reformatio always meant renewing the foundations by going back to one’s origins.

    Understanding “reformation’ in this way, Al Qa’ida is a product of an Islamic reformation, i.e. it is an attempt to go back to the example and teaching of Muhammad.

    5/ The belief that dispelling ignorance will increase positive regard for the other.

    This was the message of Harper Lee’s powerfull novel To Kill a Mockingbird (pub. 1960).

    – Although it is true that racial hatred can feed on and exploit ignorance, accurately dispelling ignorance sometimes rightly increases the likelihood of rejecting the beliefs or practices of another.

    It is illogical to assume that those opposed to a belief are the ones who are most ignorant about it.

    Ignorance can breed positive regard for what is wrong just as easily as it can breed prejudice against what is good.

    6/ The belief that everyone is good and decent, and if you just make a sincere effort to get to know another person, you will always come to respect them.

    – This is not universally true. Holding this view is a luxury.

    Those who have experienced life under evil governments or in dysfunctional societies are shocked at the naivety of this assumption.


    7/ The belief that putting something in context will always produce a more innocuous interpretation.

    – This is not true.

    Attending properly to context can make a text even more offensive than it would otherwise have been.

    Conversely, if you take something out of context you may regard it more positively than you ought to.

    In reality, radical interpretations of the Qur’an, such as are used to support terrorism, almost always involve an appeal to a rich understanding of the context in which the Qur’an was revealed, including the life of Muhammad.

    On the other hand, many have taken peaceful verses of the Qur’an out of context, in order to prove that Islam is a peaceful religion.

    8/ The belief that extremism is the problem, and moderation the solution.

    Warnings against taking things to extremes are as old as Aristotle.

    More recently the idea was promoted by Eric Hoffer, in The True Believer (pub. 1951) that mass movements are interchangeable, and an extremist is just as likely to become a communist or a fascist. He claimed that it was the tendency to extremism itself which is the problem.

    This idea has become very unhelpful and generates a lot of confusion.

    “Moderation’ or “laxity’ in belief or practice can be destructive and even dangerous, e.g. in medical surgery or when piloting a plane.

    Ideas that are good and true deserve strong, committed support, and the best response to bad ideas is rarely lukewarm moderation.

    9/ The belief that the West is always guilty.

    – This irrational and unhelpful idea is taught in many schools today and has become embedded in the world views of many. It is essentially a silencing strategy, sabotaging critical thinking.

    {Note: ‘viewpoints’ is constantly harping upon this theme – dda}

    10/ Two wrongs make a right reasoning.

    E.g. Someone says that jihad is a bad part of Islam, to which a defender of Islam says “What about the crusades?’

    Someone says the Qur’an incites violence, to which someone else replies “But there are violent verses in the Bible.’

    This kind of reasoning is a logical fallacy.


    11/ A specific sub-type of this fallacy is tu quoque reasoning:

    Tu quoque (“you too’) reasoning: you can’t challenge someone else’s beliefs or actions if you (or your group) have personally ever done anything wrong or have objectionable characteristics.

    E.g. A Catholic says jihad is bad, but someone counters that popes supported the Crusades.

    This is a sub-type of the “two wrongs make a right’ reasoning: it too is a logical fallacy.

    {This, too, is one of viewpoints’ favourite strategies, which he has deployed ever since he first appeared on this forum – dda}.

    12/ Belief in progress: everything will always get better in the end.

    – This is a false, though seductive bit of wishful thinking.

    Bad ideas have bad consequences.

    Good societies can easily become bad ones if they exchange good ideas for bad ones.

    Bad situations can last for a very long time, and keep getting progressively worse.

    Many countries have deteriorated for extended periods during the past 100 years.

    It is not true that ideologies or religions will inevitably improve or become more “moderate’ as time passes, as if by some magical process of temporal transformation. But things are not always going to get better.” END.

    Like I said, viewpoints either subscribes to most or all of these Bad Ideas, or else is attempting to *use* them to manipulate, demoralise and confuse unwary readers at this forum.

  26. says

    I will make a further point. Above, ‘viewpoints’ replied, disingenuously, to my calling him a Mohammedan in a mask:

    ‘Has a “mohammedan” in history ever proclaimed to be a Christian and believed in the resurrection of the living Christ ?”

    To be frank, I wouldn’t be surprised if there have been Muslims who have done just that, though (as viewpoints well knows) by the very nature of the thing, such a deceit – a Muslim basically acting as a ‘double agent’ in order to infiltrate the ranks of those he regards as his enemies – will not necessarily have been exposed. I do however recall that we recently had a news report from Kenya, about Muslims seducing young men of Christian backgrounds to Islam, and then sending them back to their home churches – without, presumably, their advertising their change of religion – so that they could infiltrate the congregations and carry out *attacks*.

    The principles of taqiyya and muruna permit extraordinary levels of deceit on the part of a Muslim who wants to cause confusion and harm in the camp of the non-Muslims.

    An archetypal model of deceit – of someone becoming a Muslim then returning to his non-Muslim community without revealing his allegiance to Islam, in order to act as a double agent / saboteur – is that of Nu’eym bin Masud. From Mr Spencer’s “The Truth About Muhammad” p. 127- ”A new convert to Islam, Nu’aym bin Mas’ud, came to the Prophet with a proposition: since his own people, the Ghatafan, did not know that he had become a Muslim, Muhammad could perhaps make use of him to gain an advantage over his enemies. Muhammad immediately recognized the potential of the situation, saying, “You are only one man among us, so go and awake distrust among the enemy to draw them off us if you can, for war is deceit”.

    I would be completely *unsurprised* if, in an internet forum, where faces are not visible, a Muslim might pose as a Christian (even to the extent of reciting Christian statements of belief) in order to slyly sow confusion and discord, or to advise courses of action that would make his Christian hearers more vulnerable in the face of the Jihad. For similar reasons, somewhere else, a Muslim might pose as a Hindu, or even – somewhere else – as a Jew. *Anything* is permissible if the goal – harming / confusing/ demoralising the kuffar, and thus benefiting the Ummah, may be served thereby.

    Just one classic article about Deception, in Islam.

    http://www.meforum.org/2095/islams-doctrines-of-deception

    “Islam’s doctrines of deception”
    by Raymond Ibrahim
, in Jane’s Islamic Affairs Analyst 
October 2008

    Mr Ibrahim, a Coptic-background American who is fluent in Arabic, has written a number of articles on the subject.

  27. says

    A point that should perhaps be made.

    Above, ‘Gunung Semeru’ has accused Gravenimage of lying about something.

    Gravenimage might – as we all do – make an honest mistake. She might get something wrong.

    But I would never, never, never call her a liar.

    She has been posting here since at least 2006, and I also have come to know her outside of this forum. I know what kind of person she is.

    She would *never* knowingly lie to anybody. (well, perhaps like Corrie ten Boom did once or twice, to save the life of an innocent person; perhaps she would lie under those extreme circumstances; but I just don’t see her deliberately lying, in an argument here, or in any ordinary setting).

  28. says

    Is that the jihad group that objects to some Christian Bibles using the name Allah? How do you know those policeman are Mahoundians? Maybe they are Episcopalians, or Wiccana…
    If you want to see Mahoundians helping Christians, look to Egypt where Mahoundians are busy helping the Copts right now…Mahoundians have been a big help to Christians in Iraq as well, and look at all the great things Boko Haram does for Christians in Nigeria…Yes, View, there are lots of incidents of Mahoundians helping Christians…Examples abound…

  29. says

    Muslims helping Christians? Are you for real? Get lost apologist, which you are for the totalitarian, freedom-crushing ideology that is Islam, an ideology which looks upon non-Muslims as the equivalent of human waste. You’ll make no headway here at JW. Guaranteed.

  30. says

    “viewpoints””also known as “911discuss”, “Peter”, “loveverybody”, and a host of other usernames, wrote:

    Another example of muslims helping Christians by preventing radicals from burning non-english bibles:

    Heavy police surveillance will be placed on a field in front of Dewan Ahmad Badawi in Bagan Luar, Butterworth on Saturday, ahead of a purported “festival” to torch copies of Malay-language bibles there.

    Penang police chief DCP Datuk Abd Rahim Hanafi said the police will not hesitate to take stern action against any groups or individuals who turn up at the site to take part in the event:

    http://my.news.yahoo.com/penang-police-alert-for-bible-burning-fest-064015229.html
    ………….

    Well, that sounds just peachy”the Malay authorities are protecting the Christians’ freedom of worship.

    Except that *they aren’t*.

    This, from the same article that “viewpoints” linked to:

    “Earlier this week, Perkasa chief Datuk Ibrahim Ali also called for the Malay version of the bible containing the word “Allah” and Jawi script to be burned.”

    In other words, the authorities *themselves* want to burn the Bibles. And why not? It was the Muslim Malay authorities who first banned the Christians use of the work “Allah” for the Christian God, although “Allah” just translates as “God” in Arabic.

    It is not a small number of “radicals” who want to destroy these Bibles and prevent the free worship of Christians”it is the government of Malaysia itself.

    So the only issue the Malay authorities have is that they’d prefer not to have an unruly mob torching the Bibles, which might lead to uncontrollable violence that might hurt someone other than the Christians.

    They’d rather burn the Bibles and oppress the Christians themselves.

    I’m afraid “viewpoints” will have to try harder when attempting to spread his meretricious bullsh*t.

  31. says

    Hi Slewedpoints!

    Gravenimage has already pointed out your attempt at kitman/taqqiya, but what do you have to say about non-Muslim Westerners having to flee from Benghazi because of threats from Muslims obeying Al Qur’an?

    Clown!

  32. says

    I’m sure that won’t deter Rasool and Hillary’s search for the terrorists of BenGhazi…I bet they are closing in on them right now…

  33. says

    Oh come on…..you know Americans are perfectly safe in Benghazi. And if something should happen to them, well, “what difference does it make”?

  34. says

    Hi, Duh_Swami :) …yes, ole “viewpoints” is very confused, and he can’t even keep his monikers straight; but one thing’s for certain, he’s a lost cause serving an evil cause: islam

  35. says

    Duh, you said ” Maybe they are Episcopalians, or Wiccana…”

    I doubt the majority muslim Malaysian police are christians

    and the fact they are preventing radicals from burning non-english bibles shows that muslims are capable of helping christians

  36. says

    Champ, why do you say my postings are off topic ?

    isnt this site about why muslims are unique and I am trying to prove muslims are just like anybody else.

    There are radicals and criminals in every group around the world, whether they be religious or ideological in their disposition

  37. says

    Wellington, you stated : ” which you are for the totalitarian, freedom-crushing ideology that is Islam, an ideology which looks upon non-Muslims as the equivalent of human waste.”

    Comment:

    A tiny minority might think that way but

    the fact that all muslim majority countries are not enslaving their non-muslim citizens shows that

    muslims are progressing much faster

    than an equivalent time period of the progress of western christianity

    even though muslims are 600 years behind western christian nations

    since islam only started 600 years after Christianity.

    Example of the progress of Islam:

    A muslim majority country like Malaysia gave all non-muslims the vote at independence,

    while a christian country like America only gave white landowners the ability to vote at independence

    while enslaving African Americans

    and pushing Native Americans off their lands

  38. says

    Graven, you stated : ” Well, that sounds just peachy”the Malay authorities are protecting the Christians’ freedom of worship.

    Except that *they aren’t*.

    Comment:

    Graven, if they are aren’t protecting the Christians right to Malay language bibles, why not allow the burnings ?

    why stop the radicals ? could it be that muslims are capable of helping christians ?

  39. says

    “viewpoints” meretriciously wrote:

    Graven, if they are aren’t protecting the Christians right to Malay language bibles, why not allow the burnings ?

    why stop the radicals ? could it be that muslims are capable of helping christians ?
    …………………..

    You are ignoring the fact that it is the Malaysian government itself which has banned and has destroyed many of these Bibles.

    Muslim nations”including such anti-democratic hell-holes as Pakistan”have stopped the actions of “radicals” periodically, because they realize that the violence can slop over against them, as well.

    But implying that Malaysian Muslims are “helping christians” is utterly false:

    “Malaysia blocks distribution of 30,000 Bibles that use ‘Allah’ for ‘God'”

    http://www.jihadwatch.org/2011/03/malaysia-blocks-distribution-of-30000-bibles-that-use-allah-for-god.html

    “Malaysia confiscates more than 20,000 Bibles over their use of the word ‘Allah'”

    http://www.jihadwatch.org/2009/11/malaysia-confiscates-more-than-20000-bibles-over-their-use-of-the-word-allah.html

    “Malaysia: Muslim leader threatens violence against Christians who use word ‘Alla’h”

    http://www.jihadwatch.org/2013/01/malaysia-muslim-leader-threatens-violence-against-christians-who-use-word-allah.html

    And I”as well as several other posters”have noticed that you refuse to comment on the story at hand, where your vicious coreligionists threaten to kidnap and murder Infidels.

    But then, it’s even harder to whitewash such overt Jihad violence as this, isn’t it?

  40. says

    Buraq, you stated : ” non-Muslim Westerners having to flee from Benghazi because of threats from Muslims obeying Al Qur’an?”

    Comment:

    What exactly are the muslims saying and how many of them are saying it ?

    As I said before, every group has radicals within the group,

    especially in a conflict zone where the families of muslims are horribly killed due to

    US government bombs

    and a tiny number of muslims take the law into their own hands

    and want revenge against those who used those US government bombs

  41. says

    Graven, you stated : ” You are ignoring the fact that it is the Malaysian government itself which has banned and has destroyed many of these Bibles.”

    Comment:

    If what you are saying is true, did the government change its mind and is now wanting to protect the non-English bibles ?

  42. says

    Champ, you stated : he’s a lost cause serving an evil cause: islam”

    Comment:

    The only cause I am serving is the cause of peace

    as Jesus said, “blessed are the Peacemakers, for they shall be called children of God”

  43. says

    Bill, you stated: ” That we should now stand peacefully and accept the sword because we have been bad. You do that!”

    Comment:

    Accept the sword ?

    when was the last time a muslim country tried to conquer the US by the sword ?

    or when was the last time a terrorist group tried to conquer the US with the sword ?

    You are describing a situation that never happened

    and is never going to happen since

    muslim countries just want the west to leave them alone

    and even if the west does not leave muslim countries alone,

    the muslim countries do not have the power to do anything about it

  44. says

    Dumble you stated : ” when the allahu akbaring mob comes screaming down the road from the local mosque.”

    Comment:

    how many of the over 50 muslim countries experience mob violence and how frequently ?

    Even in Israel, people go about not being afraid of terrorists because terrorism is very rare, even in Israel

    so how many times have mobs been seen in muslim countries going after non-muslims ?

    if terrorism in israel is rare, I would venture to say mob violence is also rare

    and can be dealt with through law enforcement

  45. says

    Endless crap from “viewpoints”:

    Graven, you stated : ” You are ignoring the fact that it is the Malaysian government itself which has banned and has destroyed many of these Bibles.”

    Comment:

    If what you are saying is true…
    …………….

    This is confirmed *in the article you linked to*. Do you think that no one will bother to check?

    And I’ve already shown that the idea that the Malaysian authorities main concern is “protecting Bibles” is ridiculous.

    Yet more crap, in reply to Buraq:

    Buraq, you stated : ” non-Muslim Westerners having to flee from Benghazi because of threats from Muslims obeying Al Qur’an?”

    Comment:

    What exactly are the muslims saying and how many of them are saying it ?

    As I said before, every group has radicals within the group,

    especially in a conflict zone where the families of muslims are horribly killed due to

    US government bombs

    and a tiny number of muslims take the law into their own hands

    and want revenge against those who used those US government bombs
    …………….

    Well, this is grimly hilarious, and a sly twisting of reality on “viewpoints'” part.

    It is the Jihadists themselves who wanted ed”and got”NATO aircover against Gadaffi.

    So he is implying one of two things here: either that the “Islamists” threatening Westerners are actually Gadaffi loyalists, which makes no sense; or else that NATO was somehow weighing in on the side of Gadaffi *against* the “Islamists”.

    Neither of these things are true. It is Al Qaida and the rest of the Islamists who are threatening Westerners in Benghazi, and who slaughtered our diplomats there. In fact, Ambassador Chris Stevens himself foolishly supported the Jihadists who eventually killed him and his colleagues.

    On the other hand, perhaps he is just suggesting that his vile coreligionists have the right to slaughter any Infidel.

    Oh”and did anyone miss the part where “viewpoints” compares himself to Jesus Christ? That was rich…

    Even more crap:

    muslim countries just want the west to leave them alone

    and even if the west does not leave muslim countries alone,

    the muslim countries do not have the power to do anything about it…
    …………….

    Does he believe we forgot 9/11? And allo the other Jihd terror attacks against the West?

    And even more crap, in reply to Dumbledore’s Army:

    Even in Israel, people go about not being afraid of terrorists because terrorism is very rare, even in Israel
    …………….

    Good God”Jihad terror is rare in Israel now because of the security fence and the checkpoints, which “viewpoints’s” vile coreligionists complain about all the time, and want to see dismantled so they can have a better crack at the hated Jews.

    As for whether mob violence is rare in Dar-al-Islam, I would suggest that he ask Chris Stevens and the rest of our diplomatic staff in Benghazi about it, but I’m afraid he can’t”they were slaughtered by an “Allahu Akbaring” Muslim mob…

  46. says

    Graven you stated : ” And I’ve already shown that the idea that the Malaysian authorities main concern is “protecting Bibles” is ridiculous.”

    Comment:

    You still need to explain why the muslims are helping the Christians in Malaysia by preventing radicals from burning non-English bibles ?

    Did the Malaysian government change its mind ?

  47. says

    Graven you stated : “Does he believe we forgot 9/11? And allo the other Jihd terror attacks against the West?”

    Comment:

    The Jihad terror attacks on the West is because the US government and its allies did not leave muslim lands alone:

    WHAT DID BIN LADEN SEE IN A MILITARILY STRONG US GOVERNMENT :

    The US government in the past has gone to war due to perceived injustice even though

    no Americans were the victims of the perceived injustice as in the war between Iraq and Kuwait,

    so is it surprising that Osama Bin Laden would want to go to “war” with the US government over perceived injustice due to

    the US government massacring fleeing Iraqi soldiers ( in the highway of death massacre: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highway_of_Death )

    and the collateral killing of thousands civilians including children

    and the subsequent sanctions that according to the UN estimates, between 500,000 and 1.2 million children died prematurely during the years of the sanctions:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_War#Sanctions

    If “taxation without representation” resulted in collective punishment when American mobs terrorized and disfigured by tarring British civilians/American loyalists,

    is it surprising that Bin Laden started a 10 year terror campaign to get US troops out of Saudi Arabia as a result of

    Saudi dissidents being tortured for opposing the presence of US troops in Saudi Arabia following the
    carnage of the gulf war in which

    the US government was accused of not only massacring fleeing Iraqi soldiers from Kuwait but also

    air strikes that collaterally killed Iraqi children and babies in the gulf war where US bombs and the after effects of war killed tens of thousands of Iraqis, destroyed 20,000 Iraqi homes, leveled schools and hospitals:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_War#Coalition_bombing_of_Iraq.27s_civilian_infrastructure

    plus sanctions that according to the UN estimates, between 500,000 and 1.2 million children died during the years of the sanctions.

    In one air strike by the militarily strong US government :

    three hundred Iraqi children were killed by “smart” bombs in a Baghdad bomb shelter on February 16, 1991.

    The blast caused a fire so intense that it flash-burned outlines of those children and their mothers on the walls; you can still peel strips of blackened skin-from the stones.

    And in 1994, religious scholars safar al-hawali and salman al-awdah were tortured by the Saudi government for protesting against US government troops in Saudi Arabia

    which made Bin Laden even more determined to get US government troops out of Saudi Arabia.

    The monster which was Osama Bin Laden was created due to

    the 90s gulf war and its tragic consequences for the civilians, children and babies in Iraq

    and the following events ( mentioned in various fatwas issued by Al-Qaeda ) finally led to the attacks on 9/11 :

    (1) Osama Bin Laden read about the US government . fire and atom bombing Japan in 1945 when

    Japan was already defeated as early as 1942 when

    Japan was not able to take back territory already lost,

    but FDR did not care about

    the communists (he was allied with ) who were killing tens of millions of civilians

    or

    that the crushing of Japan enabled communism to expand in Asia resulting in hundreds of thousands of US soldiers either

    dying horrifying deaths or

    being maimed,

    disfigured,

    deformed,

    blinded or

    paralyzed for life during the cold war.

    (2) Osama Bin Laden read about US/Allied POWs in Japan

    and hundreds of thousands of Japanese children being terrorized, tortured and burned alive in the US government’s fire and atom bombings of Japan

    and Bin Laden concluded that

    if FDR/Truman did not care about the plight of their own US soldiers captive in Japan who were being killed by the US government’s atom and fire bombings of Japan

    and since FDR/Truman did not care about the lives of hundreds of thousands of Japanese children and babies,

    Bin Laden concluded that he did not have to care about American civilians either when

    strategic goals were more important ( this is how both state and non-state terrorists think and we do not agree with the way they think ).

    (3) Bin Laden read about atrocities by US government personnel in Korea and Vietnam :

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_war_crimes#My_Lai_Massacre

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Gun_Ri_Massacre

    (4) Osama Bin Laden read about the US government in the 50s overthrowing a democratically elected Mossadegh of Iran and

    eventually the Shah terrorized his own people in Iran, thanks to the military support given by the US government

    (5) Bin Laden read about the US government in the 60s, arming the Israeli government that used those very US weapons to collaterally kill Palestinian children and babies

    (6) Bin Laden saw the US government in the 70s using napalm, agent orange and carpet bombing Vietnam and Cambodia and collaterally killing hundreds of thousands

    ( millions are still adversely affected by agent orange to this day leading to cancers, birth defects and other life threatening ailments ) :

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_Orange#Health_effects

    (7) Bin Laden saw the US government in the 80s siding with the “christian” militias in Lebanon, the very christian militias that massacred Muslims

    (8) Bin Laden saw the US government in the 80s supporting cruel dictators like Saddam Hussein

    (9) Bin Laden saw the US government in the 90s imposing cruel sanctions on Iraq resulting in UN reports stating that half a million Iraqi children died prematurely due to the sanctions.

    In the spring of 2000, a U.S. Congressional letter demanding the lifting of the sanctions garnered 71 signatures,

    while House Democratic Whip David Bonior called the economic sanctions against Iraq

    “infanticide masquerading as policy.”:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanctions_against_Iraq#Infant_and_child_death_rates

    (10) Bin Laden saw that the cruel Saudi dictatorship was being supported by the US government , the very dictatorship that tortured dissidents who opposed the stationing of US troops in Saudi Arabia

    (11) Bin Laden saw that the US government never left any country in which it had troops in ( example; US troops still present in Germany and Japan, even after the war had ended decades ago)

    Mar 24,1991 : US General H. Norman Schwarzkopf, the American commander of Operation Desert Storm, told reporters in Saudi Arabia the United States was closer to establishing a permanent military headquarters on Arab soil.
    (AP, 3/24/01)

    (12) Bin Laden saw that warnings to the US government to withdraw its troops from Saudi Arabia were ignored

    (13) Bin Laden saw one way to get US troops out of Saudi Arabia was to launch a terror campaign

    (14) Bin Laden saw that his terror campaign during the 90s against the US had failed ( due to Al-Qaeda being a tiny force )

    and US troops still remained in Saudi Arabia 9 years after the gulf war had ended.

    (15) Bin Laden saw that the only way to get the US government to withdraw its troops from Saudi Arabia was to launch an attack on the US homeland on 9/11/01 .

    (16) Bin Laden saw that the Bush Administration finally gave into his demands to withdraw US government troops,

    only after the 9/11 attacks,

    and US government troops finally left Saudi Arabia in 2003,

    almost 13 years after the gulf war had ended.

  48. says

    Champ, you stated :”Blessed are the Peacemakers, for they shall be called children of God” — Matthew 5:9

    Yes, but muslims are NOT peacemakers; their aim is to make war or create chaos wherever they go with their evil doctrine, and they certainly are not children of God!”

    Comment:

    Right now, I cannot find Peacemakers anywhere, either on our side or the side of the muslims

    and accordingly, the US government cannot claim the title

    and neither can the tiny minority of muslims who are prone to violence

    due to seeing their loved ones or other muslims being horribly killed due to US government bombs

  49. says

    Champ, you stated : ” he gives true peacemakers a bad reputation. ”

    Comment:

    Who are the true Peacemakers ?

    its definitely not the US government which is more interested in

    advancing the profit agenda of the warfare corporations and institutions than

    truly caring about people in war zones.

    Saving the children is what the US government should be doing if its truly interested in the welfare of people.

    Instead of being in the business of war and conflicts

    the US government could easily save the millions of children around the world who die every year from preventable diseases

  50. says

    Champ, you stated : “true “Peacemakers” fight against evil”

    Comment:

    Peacemakers fight evil by doing the following :

    (1) Conduct conflict resolution meetings between parties to prevent the conflict from escalating to violence

    ( conflicts take years or even decades to develop

    and the US government should be in the business of preventing conflicts rather than

    catering to the profit agenda of the warfare corporations and institutions in allowing conflicts to develop

    without any kind of preventive measures )

    (2) Conduct CIA/FBI sting operations on individuals who are not interested in peace

    (3) Formulate the right package of diplomatic and financial incentives to make sure conflicts are resolved comprehensively.

    (4) Powerful dictators and Ayatollahs will be on the CIA payroll in order to do our bidding.

    Whenever terrorists/dictators are on the CIA payroll, you will never find even one CIA report stating that those dictators/terrorists are a danger to the US

    ( example: Saddam Hussein on the CIA payroll during the 80s even when Saddam was at his most dangerous and actually using WMD

    and the Muhjahdeen Haqqani terror network that was used in the 80s by the CIA to drive the Soviets out of Afghanistan )

    (4) Enact two simple laws :

    An easy way to prevent all wars is for two simple laws to be enacted :

    (a) All pro-war politicians’ eligible kids would be drafted to the front lines of any action.

    (b) Instead of borrowing the money from China, all actions will have to be paid for by the American taxpayer within a year of the action taking place.

    If the two simple laws above are enacted, pro-war politicians will be “tripping over each other ” trying to make peace with the enemy

    because as it is now, pro-war politicians have no problems sending other peoples poor kids to the front lines but

    would have a major problem if their own kids lives are at stack.

    And (6) covertly prevent power hungry individuals from acquiring power :

    For example : The holocaust could have been prevented if

    (a) The US government was not involved in WW1 (which resulted in WW2)

    (b) the US government had covert sting operations against Hitler when Hitler was planning to overthrow the German government

    (c) the US government had covert sting operations against Hitler when Hitler was planning to gain power by killing off his enemies in the “night of long knives” massacre

    (d) Britain did not declare war against Germany when Germany invaded Poland because the holocaust only started after Britain declared war against Germany

    (Britain knew about Hitler’s early warning since Hitler warned before the transport of Jews to concentration camps that if another war was declared on Germany, the Jews would pay )

  51. says

    Gunuung Semaru wrote:

    Graven, you stated : ” You are ignoring the fact that it is the Malaysian government itself which has banned and has destroyed many of these Bibles.”

    You have not given a link to bibles being destroyed…
    ……………………….

    Well, you’re right. So far, Malaysian governmental officials have just seized Christian Bibles, threatened to shut down a Catholic newspaper, arrested Christians who are Muslim apostates and sent them to “reeducation camps”, and *threatened* to burn Bibles”I cannot find any specific instances where they have actually followed through on those threats. Yet.

    I guess you’re fine with the rest of this oppression and Muslim supremacism.

    More:

    There is more than meets the eye about these bibles.

    They where printed in Indonesia, where christians do not use Allah, but Tuhan. So I can not understand why the Indonesians used Allah instead of Tuhan.
    ……………………….

    Really? There are, for instance, many art books in English that are printed in places like Italy, Japan, and the Czech Republic. Are you saying that these books could therefore not be printed in English, but would have to be printed in the language of the place where they were printed, for some reason? What idiocy.

    More:

    I strongly suspect it was an attempt by the Indonesians to islamize the bible, also the Malay language.
    ……………………….

    This makes absolutely no sense. Firstly, as noted, Malay Christians have used the word “Allah” for “God” for at least four hundred years.

    If you have a problem with Arabic words being used in the Malay language, why don’t you take it up with Muslim invaders who introduced these words hundreds of years ago?

    More importantly, the books were ordered by Malaysian Christians for the Malay market.

    *Printers do not decide content*.

    You also don’t indicate what the motives of those putative Indonesian Christians might be in trying to Islamize the Malay Bible and the Malay language.

    More:

    Graven claims that the bibles where destroyed when in fact 5,000 Bibles have been stamped with serial numbers, government seals and warnings that the books are meant for Christians only.
    ……………………….

    I never said that these specific Bibles were destroyed”clearly they were not. They were just defaced with a clear marker restricting freedom of religion, which Gunuung Semaru seems to be fine with.

    More:

    Graven totally misses the point that the bibles where desecrated while still at the printers, If the bible where in the Malay Language, the word Allah should not have been in the bible.
    ……………………….

    What utter crap. “Allah” is simply the Arabic word for “God”, which has been used in Malaysia for hundreds of years.

    In just this same way, the French use “Dieu” and the Germans “Gott”. For that matter, the word “God” itself is derived from the Anglo Saxon, and has the same roots as the German word “Gott”. You won’t find either word in the original Aramaic Bible, but no one using the word today assumes that you are referring to some sort of Teutonic deity.

    In addition, if using the word “Allah” was some sort of “desecration”, why didn’t the Malay Christians who paid for the printing take issue with it?

    Why was it the Muslim supremacist government of Malaysia, instead, that took issue with its use?

    Besides that, the Malaysian government has been confiscating these Bibles on and off for years”many of these stories have been covered at Jihad Watch. So this was hardly some sort of one time “printer’s glitch”. Someone must be proofreading those Bibles.

    More:

    Graven blatantly lies about the bibles so as to discredit Viewpoint, when she could quite have easily pointed out that when 11 churches were attacked by firebombs amid anger among some Muslims because of Allah being used in the bibles.
    ……………………….

    And Muslims firebombing churches proves that Muslims are not oppressing and threatening Christians”*how, exactly*?

  52. says

    Reams of spam from “viewpoints”. Here, replying to Champ:

    (3) Formulate the right package of diplomatic and financial incentives to make sure conflicts are resolved comprehensively.

    (4) Powerful dictators and Ayatollahs will be on the CIA payroll in order to do our bidding.
    ……………………………

    What crap. The idea that Fascists and fanatical Muslims can be stopped by the United States offering the “right package of diplomatic and financial incentives” is ludicrous.

    This is just another call for the West to fund its own enemies.

    And when have we ever had Ayatollahs “on the CIA payroll”? What insanity.

    More:

    (4) Enact two simple laws :

    An easy way to prevent all wars is for two simple laws to be enacted :

    (a) All pro-war politicians’ eligible kids would be drafted to the front lines of any action.
    ……………………………

    Firstly, the United States does not have a draft”and when it did, it was not punitive.

    God only knows where “viewpoints” is from, but it clearly isn’t any sort of democratic nation”or if it is, his fondness for the barbarism of Islam has scrambled his values.

    More:

    (b) Instead of borrowing the money from China, all actions will have to be paid for by the American taxpayer within a year of the action taking place.
    ……………………………

    Wonder of wonders”I’ve found a small point of common ground with “viewpoints”! I have believed that our borrowing from China was a wise idea.

    More:

    If the two simple laws above are enacted, pro-war politicians will be “tripping over each other ” trying to make peace with the enemy
    ……………………………

    What nonsense. What you are suggesting is that the United States completely roll over to Jihad. Goodness knows, we do enough of that as it is…

    More:

    For example : The holocaust could have been prevented if

    (a) The US government was not involved in WW1 (which resulted in WW2)
    ……………………………

    Well, this is not only false, but utterly offensive.

    The idea that standing against tyranny enables tyranny is grotesque.

    More:

    (d) Britain did not declare war against Germany when Germany invaded Poland because the holocaust only started after Britain declared war against Germany
    ……………………………

    Massive pogroms against the Jews were already occurring in Germany before Britain ever entered the war”the horror of Kristallnacht was perpetrated in 1938. Plans were already under way laying the ground work for the Holocaust”indeed, Hitler’s plans against the Jews date back at least to his publication of Mein Kampf.

    In any case, the idea that Britain’s keeping a treaty with an ally somehow forced Hitler to liquidate millions of Jews is grotesque, in any case.

    More:

    The Jihad terror attacks on the West is because the US government and its allies did not leave muslim lands alone…
    ……………………………

    We were in Saudi Arabia as a protective force against Saddam Hussein’s aggression, *at the Saudi’s invitation*. Implying that we somehow were invaders is ridiculous.

    More:

    so is it surprising that Osama Bin Laden would want to go to “war” with the US government over perceived injustice due to

    the US government massacring fleeing Iraqi soldiers ( in the highway of death massacre: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highway_of_Death )

    and the collateral killing of thousands civilians including children…
    ……………………………

    What crap. Saddam Hussein started the aggression with his invasion of Kuwait. But moreover, this is revisionist history. Bin Laden’s complaint was having “filthy Infidels” in the “Lands of the Two Holy Places””even though we were, as I noted, invited. In addition, we (foolishly) held to all of the Saudi’s humiliating strictures, such as not allowing personnel to enter Mecca and treating our female troops like crap.

    Ultimately, we see vile Muslim apologists like “viewpoints” condoning Jihad terror, and citing Fascist horrors to do so. **Ugh**.

  53. says

    Graven, you stated : ” This is just another call for the West to fund its own enemies.”

    Comment:

    Graven, people do not become enemies overnight.

    It takes years and even decades for enemies to resort to violence
    but sadly, the US government is in the business of not preventing conflicts from escalating to violence;

    AT THE SAME TIME

    the aim of the US government is to expand its power as the people give up more and more of their power to the government

    and the Pentagon is more than willing to oblige the government’s aim since

    the Pentagon is “controlled” by the financial supporters and friends of the government in the “war or conflict profiteering” defense contractor establishment complex

    and the best way to expand the US government’s power is to control the people by constantly keeping the people in fear of an exaggerated existential threat

    whether it be the “exaggerated existential threat” of the British “enemy” which gave birth to the revolution and an expanded government

    whether it be the “exaggerated existential threat” of the Southern Confederate States “enemy” which gave birth to the civil war and an expanded government,

    whether it be the “exaggerated existential threat” of the Native American, Mexican or Spanish “enemy” which gave birth to an imperial empire and a Pacific/Caribbean power and an expanded government or

    whether it be the “exaggerated existential threat” of the German, Japanese, North Korean, Chinese, North Vietnamese and Soviet “enemy”
    which gave birth to the military/industrial complex and an expanded government that does not mind draining or bankrupting the US treasury.

    We need a government that bases the defense of the country following the self-defense policies of Switzerland

    where the Swiss live in peace from terrorism
    and the Swiss are not subject to “911” or “benghazi” type attacks since

    the Swiss hardly have enemies outside their country
    and the few enemies they have are taken care of by the law enforcement in the criminal justice system
    instead of a huge TREASURY DRAINING, military footprint inside or outside the country.
    The very activities of the US government’s military empire is
    going to result in
    the bankruptcy of our government ( in the next 10-20 years ) since

    the interest alone on the debt
    mainly due to maintaining and expanding the military empire
    will exceed a trillion dollars a year leading to the inevitable bankruptcy

    and when the inevitable bankruptcy happens,
    you and your loved ones will be left “holding the bag” which would result in
    endangering your, your loved ones and your community’s health, standard of living and well being
    and also

    the activities of the US government’s military empire endangers the lives of our fellow citizens ( example : as seen on 9/11/01 and the Benghazi attacks )

  54. says

    Graven you stated : ” We were in Saudi Arabia as a protective force against Saddam Hussein’s aggression”

    Comment:

    Is it prudent to help one dictator ( Saudi Arabian government ) against another dictator ?

    Would it not have been better to be a Peacemaker between the Saudis and Saddam ?

    and thus avoiding placing US government forces in Saudi Arabia.

    Why does the US government spend trillions on the warfare corporations

    while not trying to solve the following major problems :

    (1) 1.3 million babies being aborted every year in America.

    (2) Over a million people in America die from cancer every two years while the government is cutting back on funding cancer research

    (4) Millions of children around the world die every year from preventable diseases

  55. says

    Graven, you stated : “Saddam Hussein started the aggression with his invasion of Kuwait”

    Comment:

    Again, is it prudent to help one dictator ( the cruel Kuwaiti government ) against another dictator ?

    Could the US government have been a Peacemaker between Saddam and the Kuwaiti government way before the conflict led to the invasion ?

    The unnecessary gulf war led to troops stationed in Saudi Arabia where the US government was protecting a cruel Saudi dictator government

    which in turn led to Bin Laden wanting to oust US government troops out of Saudi Arabia

    which in turn led to the attacks on 9/11/01

    Why is it when 3000 Americans died on 9/11 , the government was willing to spend trillions

    ( a trillion is five hundred thousand million dollars plus another five hundred thousand million dollars )

    on the “war on terror “,

    but at the same time, the same government is cutting cancer research when over a million Americans are dying from cancer alone, every two years ?

    http://www.aacr.org/home/public–media/science-policy–government-affairs/resources-for-policymakers/federal-cancer-research-funding.aspx

    Is supporting the profit agenda of the warfare corporations and institutions more important than

    the lives of your friends and loved ones and the millions of Americans dying from cancer alone every two years ?

  56. says

    Yet more spam from “viewpoints:

    Graven, you stated : ” This is just another call for the West to fund its own enemies.”

    Comment:

    Graven, people do not become enemies overnight.

    It takes years and even decades for enemies to resort to violence
    ……………………….

    Not if that enemy has an ideology that condones violence against any unbeliever.

    The fact is that that Islam’s first attacks on young United States were when the Muslim Barbary states attacked, and pirated her ships and enslaved her crews in the late *18th century*. America had never done anything to any Muslim state”her only “crime” was being inhabited by “filthy Infidels”.

    More:

    and the best way to expand the US government’s power is to control the people by constantly keeping the people in fear of an exaggerated existential threat

    whether it be the “exaggerated existential threat” of the British “enemy” which gave birth to the revolution and an expanded government

    whether it be the “exaggerated existential threat” of the Southern Confederate States “enemy” which gave birth to the civil war and an expanded government…
    ……………………….

    This is how the vile “viewpoints” characterizes the birth of the freest nation in the history of the world and the ending of the scourge of slavery.

    More:

    whether it be the “exaggerated existential threat” of the German, Japanese, North Korean, Chinese, North Vietnamese and Soviet “enemy”…
    ……………………….

    This is how “viewpoints” characterizes the horror of Fascism and Communism.

    More:

    We need a government that bases the defense of the country following the self-defense policies of Switzerland

    where the Swiss live in peace from terrorism
    and the Swiss are not subject to “911” or “benghazi” type attacks
    ……………………….

    What crap. Your vile coreligionists have been threatening the Swiss ever since they dared ban Muslim supremacist minarets:

    “The jihad threat arrives in Switzerland”

    http://www.jihadwatch.org/2007/05/the-jihad-threat-arrives-in-switzerland.html

    The fact is that no Infidels are safe from the depredations of violent Jihadists, as this article above well proves.

  57. says

    Gravenimage

    Brilliant job dissecting viewpoints’ spam, bit by bit.

    REally, you’ve done all the hard work. I don’t know how you find the energy to do it.

    I’ll just add one small, extra point.

    ‘Viewpoints’ claimed, amidst all his spew of spam, that the USA should spend lots more money on aid to save the lives of children worldwide (including, of course, children in the Islamosphere), rather than spending it on security and defence.

    Somehow he seems to have overlooked the fact that the USA is actually spending rather a lot of money – both through state-funded aid programs run by the likes of the WHO, and also through the generosity of many private US citizens to Christian, Jewish and secular NGOs – in helping needy children and their families, including Muslim children.

    And yet: in Islamic Pakistan, Islamic Afghanistan, and the heavily-Islamised portions of Nigeria, **Muslims** have been and are *attacking* and *obstructing* the campaign to eradicate polio by immunisation. And *Islamic clerics* who have led the charge to reject this aid and attack and even kill the aid workers, spewing forth all manner of nonsense and lies, such as the claim that the polio vaccine is some sort of plot devised by dastardly Infidels to render Muslims infertile, etc.

    Muslims have, historically, in many places, violently attacked inoffensive and well-meaning Infidels – and deemed-insufficiently-Islamic Muslims – who were engaged in health-and-welfare programs intended to benefit children and women.

    Years ago, a poster here at jihadwatch told the harrowing story of the Muslim murder of a man who had attended university with him; a man who, a Christian, had become a doctor and gone to work with an NGO in the Sudan.

    That man was murdered by a Muslim after having done what was necessary to try to save the life of the Muslim’s third and youngest chattel-wife, a little barely-pubescent girl who had an obstructed labour (breech birth, dead baby stuck in the birth canal)

    The Muslim murdered the infidel doctor; and *also* slit the throat of the poor little girl-wife, as punishment, presumably, for having been intimately medically assisted by a male infidel doctor, and for the ‘crime’ of being too young and small (and, probably, damaged by FGM) to successfully give birth to her baby son.

    If one strolls around in the jihadwatch archives one can find other, similar stories. And that is why viewpoints’ claim that the USA should stop military attempts (however poorly focused and ill-conceived) to resist jihad, and concentrate on assisting the Mohammedan population explosion by pouring resources into medical and other ‘aid’, is so laughably nonsensical.

    Muslims will either gobble up the ‘aid’..and then, being healthier and therefore stronger and more numerous, turn round and bite off the hand, or the head, of the person offering it; or else they will actually *refuse* the aid, and kill the aid workers, right at the outset, because they are convinced that the aid is really a dastardly infidel plot to harm Muslims (by poisoning them, rendering them infertile, etc) or to seduce Muslims away from Islam.
    .

  58. says

    Graven, you stated : ” Not if that enemy has an ideology that condones violence against any unbeliever.”

    Comment:

    Did the west ever make peace with the enemy and the enemy still resorted to violence ?

  59. says

    Graven, you stated : ” Not if that enemy has an ideology that condones violence against any unbeliever.”

    Comment:

    If the west tried to make peace with the muslims and the muslims still attacked, then we can say their ideology had a lot to do with the attack but

    did the west make peace in the first place ?

    Instead of going by ideology, isnt it better to go by what a certain group is actually doing ?

    some right wing groups in the US want to overthrow the government, but what are they actually doing, apart from the rhetoric or ideology ?

  60. says

    Dumbledore’s Army wrote, referring to the appalling “viewpoints”:

    I’ll just add one small, extra point.

    ‘Viewpoints’ claimed, amidst all his spew of spam, that the USA should spend lots more money on aid to save the lives of children worldwide (including, of course, children in the Islamosphere), rather than spending it on security and defence.

    Somehow he seems to have overlooked the fact that the USA is actually spending rather a lot of money – both through state-funded aid programs run by the likes of the WHO, and also through the generosity of many private US citizens to Christian, Jewish and secular NGOs – in helping needy children and their families, including Muslim children.
    ……………………..

    Quite true, DDA”I had meant to address this point, also”but, as you mention, the shear quantity of spam made it difficult to get to everything.

    As you note, the United States”and all the other countries of the free West, including Australia”give enormous amounts to helping children around the world, including Muslim children, both through governmental aid and the many, many Christian, Jewish, and secular charities.

    Really, there is *nothing* like this in Dar-al-Islam”even given the huge oil wealth of so many Muslim countries.

    “Zakat” is often translated as “charity””but it has more to do with enabling violent Jihad than with funding schools, orphanages, and hospitals.

  61. says

    Oh yes, the islamists have pulled a lot of dirty tricks in Malaysia, so there is no need to lie.

    Graven claims

    What utter crap. “Allah” is simply the Arabic word for “God”, which has been used in Malaysia for hundreds of years.

    Now do you have any proof that Malay christians have been using allah, instead of Tuhan ? No you have not.

    By the way Indonesian and Malaysian are more or less the same, and Tuhan is spelt the same, and means God in both Malaysia and Indonesia.

    Now why would the christians want to use allah in there bible, when they know that allah is the muslim diety ?

  62. says

    Gunuung Semaru wrote:

    Graven claims

    What utter crap. “Allah” is simply the Arabic word for “God”, which has been used in Malaysia for hundreds of years.

    Now do you have any proof that Malay christians have been using allah, instead of Tuhan ? No you have not.
    …………………………

    What rot. Robert Spencer himself cites a Mallay dictionary which gives the word “Allah” for the Christian God.

    More:

    By the way Indonesian and Malaysian are more or less the same, and Tuhan is spelt the same, and means God in both Malaysia and Indonesia.

    Now why would the christians want to use allah in there bible, when they know that allah is the muslim diety ?
    …………………………

    The use of the word “Allah” predates Islam. Arabic-speaking Christians also the word “Allah” for the Christian God.

    In translation, “Allah” just means “the God”.

    Your “argument”, in any case, makes no sense. It is Muslim Malaysians who have taken issue with Christians in Malaysia using the word “Allah” in their Bibles.

  63. says

    Dumble, you stated : ” ‘viewpoints’ is a mohammedan in a mask”

    Comment:

    Has a “mohammedan” in history ever proclaimed to be a Christian and believed in the resurrection of the living Christ ?

  64. says

    Dumble, you stated : ” to fool us into believing the Muslim pantomime of victimhood.”

    Comment:

    when was the last time the west left muslims alone ?

  65. says

    Graven wrote,
    What rot. Robert Spencer himself cites a Mallay dictionary which gives the word “Allah” for the Christian God.

    Does it really say Christian god ?

    What is interesting is, where there any Malay christians 400 years ago.

    Also the Malay language what written in a form of arabic.

    So basically translating an arabic text does not prove that there where any Malay Christians, which could be very unlikely as Christianity was only just arriving

    Catholicism was introduced by the Portuguese in the 15th century while Protestantism was introduced with the capture of Melaka by the Dutch in 1641. The decline of the Portuguese and the ascent of the mainly Protestant Dutch in the 17th century led to Catholicism being suppressed. It gained a new lease of life through missionaries under British rule in the 19th century in Peninsular Malaysia and was also introduced in Sabah and Sarawak.

  66. says

    Gunuung Semeru wrote:

    Graven wrote,
    What rot. Robert Spencer himself cites a Mallay dictionary which gives the word “Allah” for the Christian God.

    Does it really say Christian god ?

    What is interesting is, where there any Malay christians 400 years ago.

    Also the Malay language what written in a form of arabic.

    So basically translating an arabic text does not prove that there where any Malay Christians, which could be very unlikely as Christianity was only just arriving

    Catholicism was introduced by the Portuguese in the 15th century while Protestantism was introduced with the capture of Melaka by the Dutch in 1641. The decline of the Portuguese and the ascent of the mainly Protestant Dutch in the 17th century led to Catholicism being suppressed. It gained a new lease of life through missionaries under British rule in the 19th century in Peninsular Malaysia and was also introduced in Sabah and Sarawak.
    ……………………………..

    You’ve reached the “baffle ’em with minutia” point.

    The fact is that in a free society Christians”or any other group’should not risk having their Bibles confiscated, held, damaged, and threatened with destruction, whether they call the supreme being “Tuhan”, “Yahweh”, “Jehovah”, “God”, “Allah”, or “The Awesome Big Dude in the Sky”.

    None of this should entail their having to justify the use of any phrase.

    This is just another case of Islamic persecution of Christians, which seems to bother you not one whit”not this, and not the threatened slaughter of Westerners in Libya, which is what this thread is actually about.

  67. says

    Endless spam from “viewpoints”:

    Graven you stated : ” We were in Saudi Arabia as a protective force against Saddam Hussein’s aggression”

    Comment:

    Would it not have been better to be a Peacemaker between the Saudis and Saddam ?

    Could the US government have been a Peacemaker between Saddam and the Kuwaiti government way before the conflict led to the invasion ?
    ………………..

    To be a “peacemaker” between an aggressor and his victim is to validate the aggression.

    For instance, if you invaded my home and claimed that it would be provocative for me to call the police and have you removed, where would that leave me? I might be able to negotiate a “peace settlement” whereby you could occupy my living room, but I would be able to retain the kitchen (with no guarantees, of course, that you wouldn’t decide to encroach on my pantry whenever you so decided).

    *That* is what your “peacemaking” would look like”an encouragement to every bloody aggressor who wanted to take advantage of the weakness of his victims and the foolishness of anyone who might otherwise be able to stop them.

    And your implication that what Jihad terrorists are *really* concerned about is abortion and cancer rates in the US and sick kids abroad is ludicrous.

    As noted, the United States spends huge amounts on disease prevention around the word, and their efforts are frequently stymied by those same vicious Muslims.

    More:

    Why is it when 3000 Americans died on 9/11 , the government was willing to spend trillions

    ( a trillion is five hundred thousand million dollars plus another five hundred thousand million dollars )

    on the “war on terror “,

    but at the same time, the same government is cutting cancer research when over a million Americans are dying from cancer alone, every two years ?
    ………………..

    I’m sure that everyone who died a fiery death death in the Twin Towers was really thinking, “why doesn’t the US dedicate more money to cancer research”? What a bloody idiot.

    and the implication that the state of cancer research would be better were Americans and other Westerners under the heel of brutal Muslim is just ludicrous. Does he want us to believe that Shari’ah states dedicate a lot of money to cancer research?

    More:

    Graven, you stated : ” Not if that enemy has an ideology that condones violence against any unbeliever.”

    Comment:

    Did the west ever make peace with the enemy and the enemy still resorted to violence ?
    ………………..

    Absolutely. When then Ambassadors Thomas Jefferson and John Adams met with the Ambassador from Tripoli in 1785, to reach a solution to the seizures of American ships and the enslavement of her crews, this is what they heard:

    “When they inquired by what right the Barbary states preyed upon American shipping, enslaving both crews and passengers, America’s two foremost envoys were informed that “it was written in the Koran, that all Nations who should not have acknowledged their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon whoever they could find and to make Slaves of all they could take as prisoners, and that every Mussulman who should be slain in battle was sure to go to Paradise.”

    They only stopped their depredations when we formed a navy and sent in the marines.

    Yet more:

    Instead of going by ideology, isnt it better to go by what a certain group is actually doing ?
    ………………..

    Quite so. If Muslims only had a violent, supremacist ideology, but never acted on it, no one would care. But pious Muslim have been responsible for well over 20,000 Jihad terror attacks around the world just since 9/11. The are, most assuredly, walking the bloody walk, as well as talking the bloody talk.

    And yet more again:

    some right wing groups in the US want to overthrow the government, but what are they actually doing, apart from the rhetoric or ideology ?
    ………………..

    This makes an interesting contrast, since none of those “right wing groups” that supposedly want to overthrow the government are actually violent, while the body count of the victims of Islam is growing all the time.

  68. says

    Dumbledore’s Army wrote:

    For the benefit of anyone who may have persevered thus far, struggling through the showers of sand flung out by ‘viewpoints’, I will link to a most illuminating little piece by Australian scholar and priest, Rev Dr Mark Durie…
    …………………….

    Excellent post, DDA. And a marvelous rejoinder to all of “viewpoints” reams of bullsh*t.

  69. says

    So here is the facts about the Malay dictionary which Robert Spencer himself cites a gives the word “Allah” for the Christian God.

    The Dictionary was compiled by Frederick de Houtman while he was imprisoned by the Sultan of Aceh in northern Sumatra. In 1603, after his return to Holland, Frederick published his stellar observations in an appendix to his dictionary and grammar of the Malayan and Malagasy languages.

    Spraeck ende woord-boeck, in de Maleysche ende Madagaskarsche talen, met vele Arabische ende Turcsche wooden.

    http://objects.library.uu.nl/reader/index.php?obj=1874-205055&lan=en#page//11/59/82/115982411244475694336047923200587210729.jpg/mode/2up

    The book was translated from Dutch to Latin by David Haex at the request of Cardinal Barabarini and titled Dictionarivm Malaico-Latinvm et Latino-Malaicvm

    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_tOyoSX7JPiE/TTXvLfYl_cI/AAAAAAAAAfU/vlji66Oj_Rw/s1600/Qualityof+Dictionary.png

    So the dictionary originates from Aceh, at a time where there no Christians