#MyJihad in Syria: Islamic supremacists vow to fight until "we establish an Islamic state in Syria"

Somehow these greasy Islamophobes got the crazy idea that jihad had something to do with taking up arms to establish an Islamic state. No doubt Hamas-linked CAIR's Ahmed Rehab is on his way to Syria as we speak, in order to explain to these Islamic supremacists that jihad is really just all about getting the kids to school.

"Salafists Vow to Fight Until There Is 'Islamic State in Syria,'" by Tulin Daloglu for Al-Monitor, January 16 (thanks to Voice of the Copts):

"Rami Youssef" is his revolutionary alias. This young man — aged 18 with dark features and a full, circular beard and shaved mustache in the tradition of the Prophet — has been in Turkey for less than a week. His elder brother said of Rami, "He wants to go back to Aleppo tomorrow and continue fighting." Speaking to Al-Monitor on Jan. 15 via Skype from his brother's house in Gaziantep, Rami acknowledged that he is from the al-Suddik brigade of the Ahrar al-Sham Battalions.

It is rare for Salafist fighters to speak with reporters. In his conversation with Al-Monitor, Rami Youssef shed light on the origins and objectives of Ahrar al-Sham (Free People of Syria), which was established in late 2011 as a Salafist group, as well as the still-fragmented nature of the Syrian opposition.

"We are an Islamic group, and we want to establish an Islamic country when the [Syrian President Bashar al-]Assad era ends," said Rami. Rami claimed to have no knowledge of Mouaz Alkhatib, the former imam of a Damascus mosque and the new, internationally recognized leader of the Syrian opposition.

"Most of the fighters just fight because Assad is evil, but they don't know anything about this guy or the opposition outside. They just believe Assad needs to go." He then stressed, "We will fight until we establish an Islamic state in Syria. Even the 75% of the Free Syrian Army is fighting with this in mind. We don't want it as strict as Saudi Arabia, but we will not let go until we achieve our goal."

Rami told Al-Monitor that three months after Ahrar al-Sham was established, nine trainers arrived from abroad to assist them.

"The leader was of Syrian origin but came from Chechnya. His pseudonym is Abu Maryam," said Rami, when asked what foreign support his group has received. "The others came from Libya, Tunisia and other places. Among other things, they taught us how to promote our organization. People started to join us, and we grew quickly."

The founder of Ahrar al-Sham goes by the name Abu Abdallah, but he remains mysterious. No one knows much about him. Even Rami preferred not to talk about him or his whereabouts except to reveal, “He is also from Aleppo.” Rami claimed that there are some 5,000 to 6,000 Ahrar al-Sham fighters in Aleppo and the surrounding countryside and admitted that they receive foreign funding.

“We get money from the Gulf – mainly from Saudi Arabia and Qatar as well as Kuwait and Bahrain,” he said. “We fight in our name as Ahrar al-Sham, so our budget is not the same as the Free Syrian Army's. And we only use this money to buy weaponry for ourselves and the battalion.”

“We usually have machine guns and RPGs,” Rami told Al-Monitor. “We just recently started to get anti-aircraft weaponry. We looted some from the regular army. We buy the rest from Turkey or Chechnya or other places.”

Rami is careful when talking about Turkey. “The Turkish government is helping us because they’re an Islamic government too,” he told Al-Monitor. “But they are also profiting from this war by selling weaponry to us at far higher prices. They are becoming opportunistic.”

Rami did not want to go into detail about his group's Turkish sources for weapons. He did, however, offer, “It’s important that the government allows the weapons to go through the borders.”

With great pride he said that although Ahrar al-Sham fights alongside the Free Syrian Army (FSA), his group is not connected to the latter. He is also not shy about admitting that atrocities have been carried out by both sides. “There are many shabiha [supporters of the Syrian regime] who are raping, stealing and robbing in the name of the Free Syrian Army and the Islamic groups. They just want to give us a bad image,” Rami said. “There are many others who also joined the FSA and Islamic groups to get weapons, and do all the bad things, like stealing and robbing.”

“Many people who joined Ahrar al-Sham were not good people. They were unemployed people, bad guys, who drink and waste their time,” Rami told. “Most of the real fighters, the jihadists, were either martyred or injured and came to Turkey and other places for hospitalization. So the people who remain now are actually those who are just there for looting, stealing.”

Rami argues that the fighting in Syria has been sectarian from day one. “What do you think the fighters coming from Russia or Iran are doing? They just want to kill as many Sunnis as they can so that they can assure that Assad continues to stay in power,” he said. “After the Islamic groups started to operate across the country, we also started to do the same. It’s our jihadist duty. Now the Alawites are escaping to the coast, moving toward the Latakia region.”

The composition of Ahrar al-Sham is different from the Free Syrian Army, whose members are mostly retired from or defectors from the regular Syrian army. “About half of us are Syrian. We have members of the Muslim Brotherhood in our group,” said Rami. “But the rest are coming from Libya, Chechnya, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Egypt, Sudan, Turkey and Azerbaijan. There are even people coming from Belgium.” He claimed that he has seen “plenty” of al-Qaeda members in Syria, but that “their numbers are not as big as the FSA.”...

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"We don't want it as strict as Saudi Arabia, but we will not let go until we achieve our goal."

What?!

You mean that you want to pick and choose from Allah's commands those you will follow and those you will ignore?

Blasphemer!

Filthy kafir!

#MyJihad in Syria: Islamic supremacists vow to fight until "we establish an Islamic state in Syria"

Somehow these greasy Islamophobes got the crazy idea that jihad had something to do with taking up arms to establish an Islamic state.
.................................

And here I thought the rebellion in Syria was about freedom from dictator Assad? Isn't freedom what the "Arab Spring" is all about? sarc/off

More:

"Salafists Vow to Fight Until There Is 'Islamic State in Syria'"
.................................

And what percentage of the rebels are "Salafists"? This is a question that nobody ever thinks to ask...

More:

It is rare for Salafist fighters to speak with reporters. In his conversation with Al-Monitor, Rami Youssef shed light on the origins and objectives of Ahrar al-Sham (Free People of Syria), which was established in late 2011 as a Salafist group, as well as the still-fragmented nature of the Syrian opposition.
.................................

And note that these "free peop0le of Syria" don't actually want freedom—they want to impose Shari'ah.

More:

Rami told Al-Monitor that three months after Ahrar al-Sham was established, nine trainers arrived from abroad to assist them.

"The leader was of Syrian origin but came from Chechnya. His pseudonym is Abu Maryam," said Rami, when asked what foreign support his group has received. "The others came from Libya, Tunisia and other places. Among other things, they taught us how to promote our organization. People started to join us, and we grew quickly."
.................................

And why not? The goal of all Jihad is the establishment of the Shari'ah state. They don't care who or where they're fighting.

More:

“We get money from the Gulf – mainly from Saudi Arabia and Qatar as well as Kuwait and Bahrain”
.................................

And here's the other aspect of what is going on here—Shi'ite Iran has supported Syria, with its large Shi'ite and Alawite populations. And Iran has extended its influence by backing Hizb'allah and Hamas, as well. So this funding the rebels is a push for greater Sunni hegemony.

And the greater oppression of Shi'ites, Alawites, and Christians has already begun in Syria, wherever the rebels had gained control.

The minority Alawites, in fact, most likely face out and out genocide if—or when—Assad falls.

And it is notable that Turkey is supporting the rebels, as well, though they are supposed to be neutral.

More:

He is also not shy about admitting that atrocities have been carried out by both sides. “There are many shabiha [supporters of the Syrian regime] who are raping, stealing and robbing in the name of the Free Syrian Army and the Islamic groups. They just want to give us a bad image” Rami said.
.................................

Actually, he isn't admitting this at all. Instead, he is claiming that all the atrocities attributed to the rebels are actually perpetrated by he regime to make the rebels "look bad".

Is this journalist being deliberately meretricious, or is he so wedded to the "template" that he doesn't notice the contradiction?

More:

Rami argues that the fighting in Syria has been sectarian from day one. “What do you think the fighters coming from Russia or Iran are doing? They just want to kill as many Sunnis as they can so that they can assure that Assad continues to stay in power,” he said. “After the Islamic groups started to operate across the country, we also started to do the same. It’s our jihadist duty. Now the Alawites are escaping to the coast, moving toward the Latakia region.”
.................................

Notice he refers to the Alawites "escaping". If his Salafists are victorious, few of those Alawites will be allowed to escape...

More:

The composition of Ahrar al-Sham is different from the Free Syrian Army, whose members are mostly retired from or defectors from the regular Syrian army. “About half of us are Syrian. We have members of the Muslim Brotherhood in our group,” said Rami. “But the rest are coming from Libya, Chechnya, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Egypt, Sudan, Turkey and Azerbaijan. There are even people coming from Belgium.”
.................................

But isn't the Muslim Brotherhood "moderate" and "secular" now? Just because credulous Westerners want to believe it doesn't make it so, of course.

And what's this about Belgium? This just means that Muslims who have set up camp in the free West have now started waging Jihad abroad in large numbers.

You can also be sure that Western money is flowing to fund Jihad, just as "Western" Muslims are flocking to fight it. What fools we are for allowing our own free countries to serve as bases for Jihadists to operate from.

Allah can be very versatile if you needed to be!!
M

Non-muslims are capable of violence based probably on misinterpreting Jesus when Jesus asked why the Jewish leadership were not killing disobedient children ( Matthew 15:3-4 )

And again people probably resort to violence by misinterpreting Jesus saying that Jesus came not for peace but the sword : Matthew 10:34-36


A tiny minority of Americans in 2009 were accused of hate crimes against muslims :


http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2012/spring/fbi-dramatic-spike-in-hate-crimes-targetin


Here is a list ( not a comprehensive list ) of non-muslim religious groups who are violent :

Holy Spirit Movement :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Spirit_Movement

Lord’s resistance army :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord%27s_Resistance_Army#Ideology

Robert Catesby’s English Catholics :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunpowder_Plot

Catholic Irish Republican Army:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Troubles

National Liberation Front of Tripura

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Liberation_Front_of_Tripura

Manmasi National Christian Army (MNCA

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism#Tripura_and_Assam

Christian Endeavour Union,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_violence_in_Orissa#2008_violence
Hindu nationalist (Hindutva) groups

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_violence_in_Orissa#2008_violence


Iron Guard of Romania:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Guard#Ideology

The Covenant, The Sword, and the Arm of the Lord


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Covenant,_The_Sword,_and_the_Arm_of_the_Lord#Operations


Brüder Schweigen ( The Order ) Christian identity organization

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Identity

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Order_(group)

Aryan nations

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan_Nations#Shooting_and_lawsuit
Irgun Zevai Leumi paramilitary group:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre

Lohamei Herut Israel Paramilitary group:

Lehi group :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(group)#Operations_in_Europe

Haganah :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(group)#Deir_Yassin_massacre


Jewish Defense League:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Defense_League

Phineas Priesthood:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phineas_Priesthood

National Socialist Council of Nagaland

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism#Background

Orange Volunteer terrorist group:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_Volunteers#Activities

Army of God:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_of_God_(USA)

KKK : The goals of the KKK included, from an early time on, an intent to "reestablish Protestant Christian values in America by any means possible,"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism#United_States

Jihad watch should also report on the good that muslims do :

Muslims helping Christians :

American muslims helping repair churches

http://www.theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/american_muslims_collecting_funds_to_help_repair_damaged_churches_in_palest/

Ladies and gentlemen

above, we have one 'Viewpoint' who just lobbed in and threw a shower of sand.

Ignore him.

He is a shapeshifter and bandersnatch (bandwidth thief) who first turned up here at least three years ago and has been busily throwing sand and peddling BS in defence of Islam and the Ummah, under a range of monikers - e.g. 'loveverybody', '45ch', 'Peter' and a yahoo stringoflettersandnumbers including the letters JuUVa, among others - ever since.

Like I said, ignore him.

He serves one useful function only: as an indicator that whatever the posted article is, it probably contains *something* that the Ummah doesn't want you to think about.

So: whenever he pops up in a thread, spitting BS and throwing sand; the moment you see his moniker and hear his robotic squawking, scroll right back up to the top of the thread and re-read the posted article, slowly and carefully. You will then have done the opposite to what he wants you to do.

I see the moniker of the BS artist is 'Viewpoints' not 'Viewpoint'.

Dumble,

Muslims are capable of helping Jews :

Egyptian authorities have seized a record 1 ton of explosives bound for the Palestinian Gaza Strip, a security official said Sunday.


http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/egypt-busts-mass-explosives-haul-heading-for-gaza-largest-single-shipment-yet-1.495097

JW is fully aware of muslims helping others/ And jihad watch also goes to the NTH degree indicating and telling people that they are not against muslims, rather JW is fighting an idealogy that is called Islam. an ideology that despises humanity. An idealogy that wants to destroy our way of life. for you to post all these other ORGS, not only it is not genuine, it is deceptive to say the least.
M

Well, "Viewpoints," or "Peter," or whatever you're calling yourself this week...perhaps you'd care to share with us which of the following atrocities those "non-muslim religious groups who are violent" are responsible for:

1972 Olympic Massacre

Irnanian Hostage Crisis / US Embassy

Beirut barracks bombing

Saudi Arabia barracks bombibg

Achille Lauro hijacking and murder

Rome Airport ticket counter

Pan Am 103

Nairobi US Embassy bombing

USS Cole

9/11/2001

Fort Hood

7/7 Subway bombing London

Subway bombing Madrid

Mumbai Massacre

Algeria gas plant massacre

(not a comprehensive list)

There's a common denominator for EVERY one of these crimes against humanity. Can you guess what that is? Here's a clue:
It AIN'T ANY of your "non-muslim religious groups who are violent..."


@Viewpoints

"American muslims helping repair churches"---

Helping repair churches where... in Saudi Arabia?. Besides thief, buffoon.

speaking of the hostage crisis George, one of those hostages, and to that end one the most prominent of those hostages is a very good friend of mine. about two month ago, I took him out for a cigar and he was not himself. I asked him what is wrong and he told me a fellow hostage friend of his killed himself as could not deal with it. This hostage friend of mine was mock executed 10 times. he has night mares, he gets chest pain, he get pain in his arm....... to this day. 35 years later. those hostages are heroes and for this ... view point/he/she is another stealth jihadist who is trying to white wash Islam. an oil tanker loaded with colorox bleach is not able to white wash Islam. On another note here George, may Allah guide the Ravens to a jihadist like victory in NO!!!!!!!
M

Hi Miriam,

My condolences to your friemds who were victimized. With our fast news-cycle and short attention-span, we tend to forget that these aren't just transitory acts where the victims are concerned. These are life-altering, traumatizing events that never go away. If the terrorists don't literally take your life they can still damage you for the remainder of it. And, it seems to me that the terrorists are most often...MUSLIMS! Coincidence? I think not...

After what the Ravens did here in Denver--and then topped that in Boston--I'm the last person who's gonna' bet against 'em!

Cheers, my friend!

G

Did you know that Wikidpedia is not a reliable source of accurate information? I encourage posters to not follow links provided by Mahoundians or supporters...

This is Jihadwatch, we are not watching Christian, Hindu, or Wiccan violence...There are other web sites for that...


Here's the basic...

When Christians act up it is in spite of Christianity, not because of it...When Mahoundians act up, it is because of Islam, not in spiteof it...

I hope that helps satisfy your curiosity...

OT...The 49'er's are gold plated...That means they can bribe Allah to support them...The Ravens are going to have to offer Allah a better deal, or they are toasted Ravens...

Miriam, if JW is not against muslims, why does it not post any messages about good muslims ?

George, you are right that non-muslim religious groups pale in comparison to

the non-muslim ideological groups like the Nazis and the communists that together killed over a hundred million people in the 20th century

Meryl, christians are not able to repair mosques in the Vatican City either, right ?

Duh Swami, you said " When Christians act up it is in spite of Christianity, not because of it"

There are enough passages in the bible pointing to violence for some cult group to adopt for example:

when Jesus asked why the Jewish leadership were not killing disobedient children ( Matthew 15:3-4 )

And again people probably resort to violence by misinterpreting Jesus saying that Jesus came not for peace but the sword : Matthew 10:34-36

and read Revelations where Jesus comes back to make war against evil


You need to start making sense, young man:

1. Because the Nazis and Communists did bad things...that makes it right for MUSLIMS to do bad things? Is that what you're trying to pass off? Are you saying that makes it OK?

2. Nazism was defeated--and has not risen again--in 1945; Communism (as represented by the late USSR) imploded in the early 1990's.
Neither was a religion-based system and neither can be said to be a terrorism threat today. BTW, we (The Free World) expended a lot of blood and treasure to DEFEAT these evil systems--and we'll do it again to defeat islam--easily the equal in evil to both.

3. You can't just dismiss these atrocities by saying, "look what so-and-so did way-back-when." Humans are an imperfect lot and we've all made mistakes and done wrong, individually and societally. Civlized people, though, can--and do-- self-evaluate and try to correct their errors. If you tell me that muslims, as a group, make this same effort...then I'm calling you a bald-faced liar.

You're here (of all places!) to defend evil people with an evil agenda that's based on conquest, subjugation, totalitarianism--who pursue that agenda with evil ways and means. And I'm here to tell you
that your attempts to equivalize and excuse this evil are both pathetic and futile...

There are enough passages in the bible

Bible? What nonsense you post... Is this bible study class? What do you mean people 'probably' resort to violence because of something they misunderstood about something Jesus said...I don't know any Christian who does that, and neither do you...But there are plenty of Mahoundians who readily resort to violence because of something in the Quran or something Mahound said...
You need help... your posts have little or no substance......maybe some kegels would help...

You miss a lot. A lot. Here's one of many things you miss: Any violence sanctioned in the New Testamenr is for God to engage in, not humans. Contrast this with the Koran where humans are time and time again encouraged to commit violence in this world on Allah's behalf.

And spare me any faux comparisons between the Old Testament and the Koran. The former is often dispositive of merely description while the latter is always pointing the way to prescription.

In any case, when Baptists, Lutherans, Catholics, Jews, etc. aplenty resort to violence in the name of their faith, as Muslims aplenty do everyday of every week of every month of every year, get back to me and I'll reconsider things. Till then, go stick it where the sun doesn't shine.

Jihad watch should also report on the good that muslims do :

JW posts about good Mahoundians every day...They are called Jihadi...When they kill kuffar Allah considers them good...What is good enough for Allah is good enough for all Mahoundians...

"viewpoints" wrote:

Non-muslims are capable of violence based probably on misinterpreting Jesus when Jesus asked why the Jewish leadership were not killing disobedient children ( Matthew 15:3-4 )
.........................

Ah, yes—because Christians are killing disobedient children in the name of Jesus everyday—really, it's a holocaust...

What absolute crap.

Dumbledore's Army is correct—this is "Peter", who has shown up here in a whole series of masks. Most recently, he was posting under the "Truther" username "911discuss", where he was—appallingly—lauding the Axis. That tells you a great deal right there.

"Hitler honored in upscale mall in modern, moderate Turkey"

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2013/01/hitler-honored-in-upscale-mall-in-modern-moderate-turkey.html

More:

And again people probably resort to violence by misinterpreting Jesus saying that Jesus came not for peace but the sword : Matthew 10:34-36
.........................

Again, when Christians are running wild in the streets, murdering people in the name of Matthew 10:34-36, then I'll be concerned.

Meanwhile, pious Muslims are slaughtering hundreds of thousands of people on the basis of their vile creed.

More:

Jihad watch should also report on the good that muslims do :

Muslims helping Christians :

American muslims helping repair churches

http://www.theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/american_muslims_collecting_funds_to_help_repair_damaged_churches_in_pales
.........................

I might ask why it is that these churches were damaged in the first place—might it be pious Muslims?—but this link does not lead to any such story.

Instead, it just links to "The American Muslims", which regularly whitewashes Islam for Infidel consumption.

Here's the actual link:

http://theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/american_muslims_collecting_funds_to_help_repair_damaged_churches_in_palest/

Muslims rampaged through Gaza and the "West Bank" damaging churches back in 2006 after the Pope dared to suggest that Islam might be violent.

More:

Muslims are capable of helping Jews :

Egyptian authorities have seized a record 1 ton of explosives bound for the Palestinian Gaza Strip, a security official said Sunday.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/egypt-busts-mass-explosives-haul-heading-for-gaza-largest-single-shipment-yet-1.495097
.........................

Are those the same Egyptian authorities who are threatening Israel themselves?

And I wonder who is trying to smuggle that one ton of explosives into Gaza? Christian aid groups, perhaps? sarc/off

Or, might it be...pious Muslims? Really, just a guess...

Really, citing Islamic Jihad against Christians and Jews to show how much Muslims really love Christians and Jews has to be seen as a big fail.

Oh I get it, Peter's offering *wrong* viewpoints, haha ...

viewpoints,

Not to slight the other JW regulars who posted fine rebuttals to your comments, I will expect you to give a satisfactory response to George's comment above (which my comment here is linking to).

I'm watching you, viewpoints.

gravenimage,

You quoted from the article --

"Salafists Vow to Fight Until There Is 'Islamic State in Syria'"
.................................

And asked:

And what percentage of the rebels are "Salafists"? This is a question that nobody ever thinks to ask...

Weeks ago, Diana West put together the reports we should know about the Syrian jihad:

http://www.dianawest.net/Home/tabid/36/EntryId/2340/Syrian-Rebels-We-Are-All-Jabhat-Al-Nusra-Al-Qaeda.aspx

In this vitally informative article, Diana West, as usual, tied together many disparate but alarming facts -- this time about the ongoing Syrian jihad against Assad: most centrally that the "diverse" pastiche of various Syrian opposition rebel groups all support and admire Jabhat-Al-Nusra.

That Obama formally designated Jabhat-Al-Nusra a "terrorist" organization is just window dressing -- since the coalition of opposition rebels (whose rebellion Obama does support) all admire and support it, and are reasonably inferred to be following its lead.

Diana West quotes from the New York Times:

...a growing number of anti-government groups — including fighters in the loose-knit Free Syrian Army that the United States is trying to bolster — have signed petitions or posted statements online in recent days expressing support for the Nusra Front... many called for this Friday’s title [note: to coincide with Friday prayers] to be “No to American intervention — we are all Jabhet al-Nusra.”

(What they mean by "American intervention, of course, is any possible intervention in support of Assad. Surely, they won't mind Obama's assistance in money and materiel for their jihad.)

Then Diana West quotes from The Daily Mail:

A total of 29 opposition groups, including fighting "brigades" and civilian committees, have signed a petition calling for mass demonstrations in support of Jabhat al-Nusra...

I think it's clear that the united front of the Syrian "opposition" is, or might as well be, "Salafist".

George you said

" Because the Nazis and Communists did bad things...that makes it right for MUSLIMS to do bad things? Is that what you're trying to pass off? Are you saying that makes it OK? "

Response : I have never defended anybody’s violent behavior and never will since I am a pragmatic pacifist.

What I am trying to get at is there is nothing unique about muslims or Christians or jews or atheists

As you can find criminal elements in all the adherents of different ideologies.

Lemon, read my response to George

If you have any questions, let me know, thanks

Duh, you said " I don't know any Christian who does that"

Response: there are many christians who justify their violence by invoking God and not Allah

Below are a few examples of people looking to God and not Allah for their guidance

Criminals justify their actions by saying God ordered them to kill their children :

http://articles.cnn.com/2004-04-03/justice/children.slain_1_deanna-laney-jury-rules-god?_s=PM:LAW


http://gaycitynews.com/god-made-me-do-it-defense-in-2011-midtown-murder/

Slave holders justify their actions by quoting the bible :

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/04/12/how-the-bible-was-used-to-justify-slavery-abolitionism/

Hitler justified his actions by saying God was on his side:


Certainly we don't have to discuss these matters with the Jews, the most modern inventors of this cultural perfume. Their whole existence is an embodied protest against the aesthetics of the Lord's image.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

I had so often sung 'Deutschland u:ber Alles' and shouted 'Heil' at the top of my lungs, that it seemed to me almost a belated act of grace to be allowed to stand as a witness in the divine court of the eternal judge and proclaim the sincerity of this conviction.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Even today I am not ashamed to say that, overpowered by stormy enthusiasm, I fell down on my knees and thanked Heaven from an overflowing heart for granting me the good fortune of being permitted to live at this time.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

The anti-Semitism of the new movement [Christian Social movement] was based on religious ideas instead of racial knowledge.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Heaven will smile on us again.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

For when a people is not willing or able to fight for its existence-- Providence in its eternal justice has decreed that people's end.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

Thank the Lord, Germanic democracy means just this: that any old climber or moral slacker cannot rise by devious paths to govern his national comrades, but that, by the very greatness of the responsibility to be assumed, incompetents and weaklings are frightened of.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter.

http://www.nobeliefs.com/hitler.htm

the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders.

http://www.nobeliefs.com/hitler.htm

Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)


Stalin liked to quote long quotes from the Bible:

http://freethoughtpedia.com/wiki/Was_Stalin_an_atheist%3F#Argument:_Stalin_had_faith.2C_but_not_religion

Wellington, you said " Any violence sanctioned in the New Testamenr is for God to engage in, not humans."

Response : true, but a lot of christians follow the Old Testament and that is why they go to war and justify "jihad" ( example: battle hymn of the Republic )

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Battle_Hymn_of_the_Republic#Creation_of_the_.22Battle_Hymn.22

Graven you said " Christians are killing disobedient children in the name of Jesus everyday—really, it's a holocaust..."

Response: Christians do not kill disobedient children, just like muslims do not kill disobedient children

because both Christians and Muslims do not follow every thing their religions command

"viewpoints" wrote:

Graven you said " Christians are killing disobedient children in the name of Jesus everyday—really, it's a holocaust..."

Response: Christians do not kill disobedient children, just like muslims do not kill disobedient children

because both Christians and Muslims do not follow every thing their religions command
................................

What absolute crap. "Honor Killing" is absolutely rife among Muslims, all in the name of their vile creed.

And your showing up here using a new username every time gains you nothing. I suppose you are attempting to imply that your Islamic apologia is espoused by a large number of people here at JW—but few regular readers won't fail to see through your crap.

Note that "911discuss" referred to me as "Graven", as well—as though this vile apologist for utter evil were a good pal of mine.

This article about the Sunni Muslim sharia assassins in Syria and their goal of establishing a (Sunni Muslim) sharia state there, must be important: the mohammedan in a mask, 'viewpoints' (alias 45ch alias 'loveverybody' [sic: ROFLMAO], alias JuUva alias 'Peter' alias a few other monikers I forget), is expending so much energy in this thread to try to distract and confuse.

I encourage any persons reading this now, or who may lob in via the magic of 'google' and the like, in future, to click on the link I am about to supply.

It will take you to an article by a brilliant Irishman, one Conor Cruise O'Brien, who knew exactly what Islam was, and what it is about. He wrote it in 1995, when sharia assassins were waging mass-murderous warfare against the somewhat-less-Islamic superficially-westernised government with a view to establishing a sharia-compliant state, more purely Islamic.


http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/the-lesson-of-algeria-islam-is-indivisible-1566770.html

CONOR CRUISE O'BRIEN
Friday 6 January 1995
The lesson of Algeria: Islam is indivisible

Just in case the link breaks in future, I will cite the most trenchant passages.

Here is how Mr O'Brien begins:

"“Fundamentalist Islam" is a misnomer which dulls our perceptions in a dangerous way.


"It does so by implying that there is some other kind of Islam, which is well disposed to those who reject the Koran.

"There isn't.


"**Islam is a universalist, triumphalist and political religion. It claims de jure dominion over all humanity; that is God's will. The actual state of affairs, with unbelievers of various sorts dominating most of the world, is a suspension of God's will anda scandal to the faithful. The world is divided between the House of Islam and the House of War, meaning the rest of us.** {my emphasis - dda. And to anyone new to the subject: Mr O'Brien has just told you what Islam is. Believe him. - dda}.

"For more than two centuries now, the House of War has been in the ascendant, and the House of Islam has been abased.

"The remedy for this unnatural and intolerable state of affairs {note: Mr O'Brien's pen is dripping with sarcasm - dda] is jihad.

"Jihad is defined as "the religious duty imposed on all Muslims to wage war upon those who do not accept the doctrines of Islam". The Prophet Mohamed himself not merely preached but waged jihad. God's word, dictated to the Prophet and preached by him, is binding on all Muslims, and his example is their inspiration.

"In the glorious centuries of expansion [that is, from the Muslim POV - dda], the jihad carried Islam from Arabia, to the west as far as the Atlantic; to the north as far as Vienna; to the south as far as the Sahara and down the east coast of Africa to Madagascar; and to the east across Persia and the Indian subcontinent into part of China and Indonesia.

"What is going on today in the Muslim world is not the advent of some aberrant thing called Islamic fundamentalism but a revival of Islam itself - the real thing - which Western ascendancy and Westernised post-Muslim elites no longer have the capacity to muffle and control.

"The jihad is back."...

More:

"The GIA [a similar sort of entity to the sharia-pushers in Syria - dda] announced it had killed the priests [Catholic priests, then resident in a hermitage in Algeria - dda] as part of a campaign of "annihilation and physical liquidation of Christian crusaders".

"The GIA added that it would continue its jihad against all who stood in the way of achieving the supremacy on earth of God's Sharia (Islamic law) and the establishment of a wise caliphate (an Islamic state, eventually ruling over the whole world)...".

And after quoting something silly that then-President Clinton said in Jordan in the 1990s:

"After all, the chance to live in harmony with our neighbours and to build a better life for our children is the hope that binds us all together. Whether we worship in a mosque in Irbid, a Baptist church like my own in Little Rock, Arkansas, or a synagogue in Haifa, we are bound together in that hope."

Conor Cruise O' Brien observes:

""All the great religions are the same" is the idea.

"Only they aren't.

"The Clintonian world view obscures the hard specificity of Islam.

"The Prophet Mohamed did not offer his followers a chance to live in harmony with their neighbours.

"He taught them to fight their neighbours, if they were unbelievers, and kill them or beat them into submission.

"And it is futile to say of those Muslims who faithfully follow those teachings today that their actions are "not intrinsically related to Islam".


"We are facing an Islamic revival."

Read Mr O' Brien's lapidary little essay.

Print it off, and tape it to the refrigerator.

I suggest learning by heart, say, the section that reads:

""All the great religions are the same" is the idea.

"Only they aren't.

"The Clintonian world view obscures the hard specificity of Islam.

"The Prophet Mohamed did not offer his followers a chance to live in harmony with their neighbours.

"He taught them to fight their neighbours, if they were unbelievers, and kill them or beat them into submission.

"And it is futile to say of those Muslims who faithfully follow those teachings today that their actions are "not intrinsically related to Islam".

*That* is the sort of thing that, at all costs, people like 'viewpoints' do not want you to understand. They don't want you to hear people saying things like this. They don't want you to believe the Robert Spencers or the Conor Cruise O 'Briens when they tell you about the core doctrines of Islam. They don't want you to know these things or think about them. Because the last thing they want is for you to recognise that the Ummah is out to get *you* in the course of its cult-mandated drive toward Total World Domination.


viewpoints,

George made three points. You only answered #1 -- inadequately and disingenuously.

Graven, you said " "Honor Killing" is absolutely rife among Muslims, all in the name of their vile creed."

Response:

I am not sure whether the prophet of Islam sanctioned honor killing but

the fact is, compared to the killings done by non-muslims against their children, spouses, intimate partners, siblings, parents and friends due to being dishonored or disrespected due to infidelity, adultery, fornication etc

HERE IS THE RECORD :


In 2000, the UN estimated 5000 honor killings worldwide

In 2000, in the US alone there were almost 7000 killings perpetrated by husbands, ex-husbands, parents, siblings, children, intimate partners and friends due to the dishonor felt by the murderer:

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/homicide/tables/familytab.cfm

The population in the US during 2000 was 281,421,906

So the ratio of killings is 7,000/281,421,906 which is a conservative estimate if extrapolated worldwide since we have to assume that the per capita killings in the US is far less than the world since it’s a fact that higher income countries like the US have less murder than lower income countries


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States

World population during 2000 was 6,082,966,429


http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0762181.html

World muslim population during 2000 was 1,451,420,215:

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:G_r6Nach2QYJ:www.pupr.edu/hkettani/papers/WMP.pdf+worldwide+muslim+population+during+2000&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESiC-ukwNuMpIbS8WKdCO07NLSC9eqjm9X9zYZ1tPoG2FJ3RNGcYrRpnzPZ9d2tk2gxQ2ARWNLFdzGJr3nLTzho7b1U6tAcMpuiXaXClNy39tNcTQcDfPDjHRSrPwS19mprlRWMb&sig=AHIEtbSWzrcZVaCGSEPKaw0jaWuDQJAzNA

So the non-muslim worldwide population during 2000 was 4,631,546,214

So the 2000 conservative estimated worldwide non-muslim killing by husbands, ex-husbands, parents, siblings, children, intimate partners and friends due to dishonor felt by the murderer is a conservative estimate of 7,000/281,421,906 x 4,631,546,214 = 115,204

So in 2000, there were 5000 honor killings in the muslim world compared to 115,204 “crimes of passion” where the killer felt dishonored in the non-muslim world

George you said “ Nazism was defeated--and has not risen again--in 1945“

Response :

The ideology of Nazism is alive and well among many right wing groups in America

George, you said “Communism (as represented by the late USSR) imploded in the early 1990's.”

Response:

again, the ideology of communism is alive and well in China, North Korea and other places like Cuba

where free speech is stifled, political prisoners abound etc

George you said :
“Neither was a religion-based system and neither can be said to be a terrorism threat today.”

Response :

the problem with non-religious based systems is they kill a lot more profusely as seen in over a hundred million people dying during the 20th century under Nazism, fascism and communism

As for being a terrorism threat today, China does terrorize Tibetans and the muslim minority in China:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Muslims#China

George you said “
and we'll do it again to defeat islam--easily the equal in evil to both. “

Response :

Islam is not the enemy since none of the muslim majority countries are embarking on world conquest or even trying to conquer their neighbors

As for terrorism, it’s a criminal problem that should be solved using the FBI and CIA instead of using the military.


George, you said “Humans are an imperfect lot and we've all made mistakes and done wrong, individually and societally.”

Response: what makes humans imperfect, especially the atrocities and sins committed from the time of Adam and Eve to before the advent of Islam in the 7th century ?


George you said “ Civlized people, though, can--and do-- self-evaluate and try to correct their errors. If you tell me that muslims, as a group, make this same effort...then I'm calling you a bald-faced liar. “

Response :

Compared to the progress of “christian” nations that had a 600 year head start on islam

I would say, muslim nations have progressed much faster even though they started 600 years later, considering that islam only started in the 7th century.

Example : Malaysia allowing non-muslims to vote when Malaysia got its independence but the US government only allowed land owning white guys to vote when the US got its independence.

Lemon,

I responded to George's other points;

let me know if you want me to clarify further, thanks

Reams more crap from "viewpoints"—aka "911discuss", "Peter", "loveverybody", etc, etc.

It is *only* in the Muslim world that "Honor Killings" are sanctioned by law—attempts to strengthen the penalties against murdering "disobedient" women and children is regularly shot down by Imams *on Islamic grounds*.

And your implication that "Honor Killing" is somehow more rife in the civilized West where it is illegal and despised than it is Dar-al-Islam, where it is sanctioned, is ludicrous and grotesque.

More, in reply to George:

George you said “ Nazism was defeated--and has not risen again--in 1945“

Response :

The ideology of Nazism is alive and well among many right wing groups in America
...............................

Does "viewpoints" really want us to believe that neo-Nazi losers in the US are just like Fascist Germany, invading and conquering their neighbors and liquidating their enemies and committing genocide against religious minorities?

Absurd. Neo-Nazis are despised by most Americans, have no power, and are watched for criminal activity.

More:

George, you said “Communism (as represented by the late USSR) imploded in the early 1990's.”

Response:

again, the ideology of communism is alive and well in China, North Korea and other places like Cuba

where free speech is stifled, political prisoners abound etc
...............................

Well, this is true—but communism has been contracting for the past twenty years since the fall of the USSR, and is not nearly the global threat that it was before that time.

And while you are quite right about the horrible abuses of communism, it is notable that you consider the stifling of free speech and the holding of political prisoners to be just fine when perpetrated in Dar-al-Islam.

More:

Islam is not the enemy since none of the muslim majority countries are embarking on world conquest or even trying to conquer their neighbors
...............................

Grimly hilarious. Pious Muslims all over the world are crowing about conquering Infidels and the "insufficiently Islamic" and "wiping Israel off the map".

Did you miss the Muslim Brotherhood takeover of Egypt, the "Islamist" takeover of Libya and the slaughter of our diplomatic staff there, Jihad raging in Nigeria, and the Shari'ah Jihad terror state set up with the conquest of northern Mali?

I doubt it, but I bet you hope that *we* missed it...

More:

As for terrorism, it’s a criminal problem that should be solved using the FBI and CIA instead of using the military.
...............................

That'll do the trick in Mali, Algeria, Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan, et al, no doubt...sarc/off

More:

George, you said “Humans are an imperfect lot and we've all made mistakes and done wrong, individually and societally.”

Response: what makes humans imperfect, especially the atrocities and sins committed from the time of Adam and Eve to before the advent of Islam in the 7th century ?
...............................

Please note, "Peter" always claimed—completely implausibly—that he was a Catholic. And yet, here he is in new guise, positing the advent of Islam as the down of some sort of new, "sinless" age.

The fact is that even by the horrifically brutal standards of the dark ages that Islam has been unbelievably bloody.

The Jews and Christians of 7th-century Arabia didn't stone adulterers to death, but vicious Muslims reinstated the savage practice.

Islam went on a centuries-long, bloody conquest of the Middle East, central and southern Asia, north Africa, and many parts of Europe.

That hasn't stopped to this day—except when Infidels stopped them or turned them back.

And today, pious Muslims are now Islamizing much of the world, taking Muslim nations that at least aspired to civilization and turning them into Shari'ah hell-holes.

Just during my lifetime, places like Indonesia, Pakistan, Lebanon, Syria, Yemen, Somalia, Egypt, Tunisia, Libya, Sudan, Nigeria, Turkey, and the Balkans have gone from bad to much, much worse.

And Islam is back threatening their Infidel neighbors more than ever—India, Israel, Christian and animist populations in Africa, and the native Infidel populations of the West.

Dhimmi populations in the Muslim world itself are facing a fresh wave of oppression, murder, and horror in places like Indonesia, Malaysia, Pakistan, Iraq, Syria, Sudan, and many other parts of Dar-al-Islam.

And horrors we had believed gone for good—amputations, stonings, and slavery, are surging back with the Islamic revival.

More:

George you said “ Civlized people, though, can--and do-- self-evaluate and try to correct their errors. If you tell me that muslims, as a group, make this same effort...then I'm calling you a bald-faced liar. “

Response :

Compared to the progress of “christian” nations that had a 600 year head start on islam

I would say, muslim nations have progressed much faster even though they started 600 years later, considering that islam only started in the 7th century.
...............................

What a ludicrous canard.

For one thing—as you well know—Islam *does not* consider itself a young religion, but instead believes that it was here from the beginning, and that Jews and Christians, before they became civilized and supposedly "changed" their scriptures, were all supposed to be Muslim.

For another, this model only makes even the smallest amount of sense when Islam is contrasted with Christianity—it makes no sense in light of Judaism or Buddhism or Hinduism.

By these lights, recent faiths would be incredibly barbaric—and yet, you don't find Unitarians, Scientologists, and people into New Age Spiritualism rampaging through the streets slaughtering unbelievers. But pious Muslims do this on a regular basis.

It also doesn't explain why so many parts of Dar-al-Islam have *regressed*—Egypt and Iran were more civilized during the 1950s than they are today, and Afghanistan was more civilized during the 1970s than it was two decades later. Northern Mali was more civilized a few months ago than it is now.

Another extremely important point is this: Islam does not believe in moral progress, which it regards as the sin of "Bi'da"—innovation.

Pious Muslims *do not* believe that banning amputations, stonings, slavery, and sex slavery is progress, and they regularly strive to impose or reimplement brutal Shari'ah law wherever they go—even violently pushing for it in the civilized West.

Graven you stated : " It is *only* in the Muslim world that "Honor Killings" are sanctioned by law"

Comment:

Hope I am not asking too many questions below:

How many of the over 50 muslim countries sanction honor killing ?

and what exactly does the law state regarding honor killing ?

and if honor killing is sanctioned by law,

why were there only 5000 honor killings worldwide compared to over 115,000 killings in the non-muslim world

that pertain to "honor" and "respect" ?


Could it be that even with honor killing allowed by law, only a tiny minority actually honor kill

compared to non-muslims who kill a lot more even with laws that are strict in non-muslim countries ?

Graven you stated : “attempts to strengthen the penalties against murdering "disobedient" women and children is regularly shot down by Imams *on Islamic grounds*.”

Comment:

So you are saying there are muslims who are against Honor killing ?

Graven you stated :

And your implication that "Honor Killing" is somehow more rife in the civilized West where it is illegal and despised than it is Dar-al-Islam, where it is sanctioned, is ludicrous and grotesque.

Comment:

Honor killing is illegal in the west, but why are there so many more “honor” killings in the west if it so despised ?


Graven you stated :
“Does "viewpoints" really want us to believe that neo-Nazi losers in the US are just like Fascist Germany, invading and conquering their neighbors and liquidating their enemies and committing genocide against religious minorities?”

Comment:

I never said that Nazis in America are trying to conquer and invade. What I did say is the ideology of Nazism is still alive and well in America and has not been destroyed.


Graven you stated :

you consider the stifling of free speech and the holding of political prisoners to be just fine when perpetrated in Dar-al-Islam.

Comment:

I am against anybody who stifles the speech of others, whether it be in muslim or non-muslim countries.

The question is , are we willing to go war with every country that stifles speech or should we be in dialog with them, giving them the incentives to change.


Graven you stated : “ Pious Muslims all over the world are crowing about conquering Infidels and the "insufficiently Islamic" and "wiping Israel off the map".

Comment:

I go by what people are actually doing rather than what they say. A lot of right wing people in America talk about overthrowing the government, so we need to find out whether those are mere words or are they backing up their words with action.

Graven you stated :
“Did you miss the Muslim Brotherhood takeover of Egypt, “

Comment:
The muslim takeover of Egypt was through a democratic process and/or through rebellion of a tyrannical government.

I don’t agree with violence of any kind and that is why I am even against the American revolution.

The only kind of violence I can understand is violence purely to defend your house and loved ones from those who want to kill your family.

Graven you stated :

“the "Islamist" takeover of Libya”

Comment:

Again, another rebellion against a tyrant who was involved in the terrorist bombing of an American airliner.

As I said before, I am against any kind of rebellion, even if its against a tyrant.


Graven you stated :
“and the slaughter of our diplomatic staff there,”

Comment:

Those who killed Americans are terrorist criminals probably because

they saw their loved ones or other muslims being killed by US government bombs and they took their revenge in Benghazi.

I am against any kind of violence or terrorism including the acts of terrorism conducted by personnel from the US government :

Here are examples of terrorism conducted by personnel of the US government :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_war_crimes


Graven you stated :
Jihad raging in Nigeria,

Comment:

The Jihad was a result of a devout Catholic executing muslims in 1966:

The prime Minister, Sir Abubakar Tafawa Balewa and The Premier of the northern region, Sir Ahmadu Bello were executed by Major Nzeogwu:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigerian_Civil_War#Military_coup

Graven you stated :

and the Shari'ah Jihad terror state set up with the conquest of northern Mali?

Comment:

Can you list the acts of terror in Northern Mali and how many were involved ?

Graven you quoted me saying “
As for terrorism, it’s a criminal problem that should be solved using the FBI and CIA instead of using the military.”

And your comment was :
“That'll do the trick in Mali, Algeria, Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan, et al, no doubt...sarc/off”

Comment:

I was talking about lone terrorists when I said the FBI and CIA should take care of them.

As for the situation in Mali, Algeria, Libya, Iraq and Afghanistan

That task should be undertaken by the State Department in being Peacemakers.

The only way we can bring peace to Mali, Algeria, Libya, Iraq and Afghanistan is to make peace with our enemies and also be Peacemakers between those involved in civil conflict.

The problems you listed is not a problem to the existence of the US but rather a problem to be solved through peacemaking

Graven you stated : “ positing the advent of Islam as the down of some sort of new, "sinless" age.”

Comment:

I never said the advent of Islam brought a new “sinless” age.

What I was saying is , what was the condition of the world before the advent of Islam and why ?

If islam made the world worse, I cannot see it since

I see a world just as bad or worse before Islam came into existence

(example: Deuteronomy states clearly the horror of genocide conducted by the Jews against all the inhabitants of Palestine including women, children, babies and animals )


Graven, you stated : “ The fact is that even by the horrifically brutal standards of the dark ages that Islam has been unbelievably bloody.
The Jews and Christians of 7th-century Arabia didn't stone adulterers to death, but vicious Muslims reinstated the savage practice.”

Comment:

Not sure about stoning, but here are the list of capital punishments in “christian” Europe during Islamic times :

The Wheel, Breaking Wheel or Catherine Wheel
Hanging - the Gibbet
Pressing or Crushing
Burning - Execution by Fire
Boiled to death
Decapitation - The Sword or the Axe
Quartering
Impalement
Hung, drawn and quartered


http://www.medieval-life-and-times.info/medieval-torture-and-punishment/execution-methods.htm


Graven you stated :
Islam went on a centuries-long, bloody conquest of the Middle East, central and southern Asia, north Africa, and many parts of Europe.

Comment:

So did christian nations go on centuries of bloodletting in Europe, America, Asia and Africa.

In the 20th century alone, over a hundred million people died due to the wars and genocides waged by non-muslim nations like Germany, China and Russia

Graven you stated :
And today, pious Muslims are now Islamizing much of the world, taking Muslim nations that at least aspired to civilization and turning them into Shari'ah hell-holes.

Comment:
Shariah hell holes ? How many muslim countries are Shariah hell holes ?

Just considering homicides; the top 23 countries for murder of all kinds are non-muslim countries :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate


Graven you stated :

Just during my lifetime, places like Indonesia, Pakistan, Lebanon, Syria, Yemen, Somalia, Egypt, Tunisia, Libya, Sudan, Nigeria, Turkey, and the Balkans have gone from bad to much, much worse.

Comment:

Not sure what you are saying.

You mentioned 13 countries out of over 50 muslim countries.

What has got much worse in the above countries ?

Do you have any studies to back up what you are saying ?

According to the Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations, the average minimum daily energy requirement is about 1,800 kilocalories (7,500 kJ) per person.

The countries you listed above, all have above the 1800 kilocalories requirement:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_dietary_calorie_intake


Graven you stated : “And Islam is back threatening their Infidel neighbors more than ever—India, Israel, Christian and animist populations in Africa, and the native Infidel populations of the West.

Comment:

Again, not sure what you are saying. Out of the over 50 muslim countries, which muslim countries have waged war or tried to conquer India, Israel, Africa etc ?


Graven you stated : “Dhimmi populations in the Muslim world itself are facing a fresh wave of oppression, murder, and horror in places like Indonesia, Malaysia, Pakistan, Iraq, Syria, Sudan, and many other parts of Dar-al-Islam.”

Comment:

Again, not sure what you are saying. Are you talking about criminals or the governments of those countries committing murder ? Can you be specific ? thanks


Graven you stated : “And horrors we had believed gone for good—amputations, stonings, and slavery, are surging back with the Islamic revival.”

Comment:

How many of the over 50 muslim countries condone amputations, stoning and slavery ?


Graven, you stated : “

“and yet, you don't find Unitarians, Scientologists, and people into New Age Spiritualism rampaging through the streets slaughtering unbelievers. But pious Muslims do this on a regular basis.”

Comment;

How many pious muslims are murdering unbelievers ? A very tiny minority ?

Graven, you stated : “
It also doesn't explain why so many parts of Dar-al-Islam have *regressed*—Egypt and Iran were more civilized during the 1950s than they are today, and Afghanistan was more civilized during the 1970s than it was two decades later. Northern Mali was more civilized a few months ago than it is now.”

Comment:

Iran was civilized in the 1950s till the US government overthrew a democratically elected Mossadegh.

Egypt was civilized in the 1950s till Israel, Britain and France invaded Egypt.

Afghanistan was civilized in the 1970s till the Soviets invaded it.

Northern Mali was civilized a few months ago ? In what way ?

You mentioned three muslim countries but what is going on with the other over 50 muslim countries ? Have they regressed ? Or are they progressing ?


Graven you stated : Another extremely important point is this: Islam does not believe in moral progress, which it regards as the sin of "Bi'da"—innovation.

Comment:

If islam does not believe in moral progress, how do you explain non-muslims getting the vote in muslim majority countries ?

If islam does not believe in moral progress, how do you explain slavery being abolished in muslim countries ?

If islam does not believe in moral progress, how do you explain the following :

Just considering homicides; the top 23 countries for murder of all kinds are non-muslim countries :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate


Graven you stated : “ Pious Muslims *do not* believe that banning amputations, stonings, slavery, and sex slavery is progress, and they regularly strive to impose or reimplement brutal Shari'ah law wherever they go—even violently pushing for it in the civilized West.”

Comment:

Do you have studies on what pious muslims believe in ? and how many pious muslims resort to violence ?

Also, do you have a record of how many people in the muslim world (out of 1.5 billion) have been stoned, amputated and taken into slavery etc ?

Above, 'viewpoints' claims that Afghanistan was 'civilised' in the 1970s, before the Soviet invasion.

ROFLMAO.

He should read Phyllis Chesler's 'My Afghan Captivity', and get a clue as to what life in Afghanistan was like in the 1960s.

Horrible, for any free western woman; especially for Phyllis who foolishly married a charming Mohammedan whom she met at university in the USA.

His family was rich, yes; but the moment he got her into purdah in Kabul **her passport was confiscated**.

She was extremely lucky to get out of that hellhole alive.

And Afghanistan has been an Islamic hellpit for centuries: ever since Islam took it over. Sometimes worse, sometimes less worse - there are varying degrees of awfulness, different circles of Hell, just like in Dante's vision - but, always, a hellpit.

Conor Cruise O'Brien nailed it, in 1992:
Conor Cruise O’Brien in 1992: ‘There are places where a lot of men prefer war, and the looting and raping and domineering that go with it, to any sort of peacetime occupation. One such place is Afghanistan. “

And one could consult Winston Churchill, the chapter entitled, 'The Theatre of War', from 'The Story of the Malakand Field Force', which is a description of what Afghanistan (and much of what is now Pakistan, today) were like...*before* the British got entangled there, in the 19th century. He's not talking about what it was like under British influence. He's describing, as best he can, the state of affairs that prevailed *before*.

I won't quote it all here, but it is pretty clear that as they are now, so they were then...in the 17th and 18th and 19th centuries.

And there's another book, John Masters' 'Bugles and A Tiger: My Life in the Gurkha Regiment', that describes life in Afghanistan and the north-west frontier.

And there is something else. Anecdotal, yes, but it's a description of life at village level, among ordinary Afghan Muslims, as observed by an American soldier. Make no mistake, *none* of the vileness described can be blamed on the dirty unbelievers, or war, or anything else; it cannot be blamed on the British, or the Russians, or the Americans; it is what Muslims do to each other whether there are Infidel invaders **or not**: it is totally the result of what Islam inculcates in human minds, behaviours Islam permits and prescribes, the atmospherics of Islam.


In the comments thread to a frontpage article; the writer is confronting someone who is rather like 'viewpoints':

http://frontpagemag.com/2011/10/24/obama-adminstration-bans-the-truth-about-islam-and-jihad/2/

'You think you win by trying to talk about "we Christians" well dhimmi I am certianly no Christian. I am an Atheist or at least Agnostic.

'So now that your "we Christians" garbage is over and debunked how about we focus on Islam.

'
Secondly as far as your whining about us dropping bombs, how about you go to Youtube and look at some of the Helo FLIR footage in the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. (the ones with actual audio of the event not the ones with music in the background) cause every time you will see the restraint that the US Military uses to make damn sure collateral damage is kept to an absolute minimum.

Nimo wether you are a Muslim jihadist posing as an American or your a liberal dweeb it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter because you get all your information about the wars second and third hand, and even worse is you are not getting information from those of us that have been there.

'So to all here who wants to spout off about the wars let me tell you a little about my life.

' I served 1 14 month tour in Afghanistan from Nov2001 to Jan2003.

'I can skip all the suicide bomber and IED attacks that killed innocent people that were committed by Jihadists,

**but I will tell about how I saw Muslims treating each other.** {my ;emphasis - dda}

'**One of the hardest things I ever saw was how Afghan men would treat their own families.** {my emphasis - dda}

'I routinely saw Afghan men beat the living hell out of their young children and wives.

{All the result of the Soviets, or the British, or the Americans, eh? They wouldn't be beating anybody, if the dirty Infidels weren't making them do it? Nothing at all to do with Quran 4: 34 and all the other Islamic texts that inculcate contempt toward women? ROFLMAO. - dda}.

'In one villiage we had to helivac a 20 something yr old woman because the husband broke both of her eye sockets because she came and had took advantage of our humanitarian medical mission (to win hearts and minds)

'somehow the husband felt dishonored so he beat his wife and punched and kicked her wives face so badly she had 2 broken eye sockets and lost over a dozen teeth.

'Because we Americans are supposed to "respect their noble culture" nothing whatsoever happened to that husband.

'In Iraq I worked in a team hunting down insurgents and ex bathhists.

'We raided a warehouse one night and killed and captured the scumbag terrorists that were there. In this warehouse we discovered what can only be described as a torture room.

'They chopped off limbs and rubbed sand and urine in them, raped, took blowtorches to them, pulled eyes out of their sockets, beat them with hammers and a ton of other inhumane garbage.

'When interrorgated **the insurgents that were not killed in the firefight said they did it because it was justified to do it because it was in the Koran to kill Apostates and infidels. ** {my emphasis - dda}.

'The scumbag Sadr militia insurgents caught in this were very proud of their work. They smiled when talking about it, joked about it, and even videotaped it so they could post it online.

'So whine all you want about the garbage that is in the old testament and whine about jesus all you want, it only makes you look dimwitted and uninformed.

'**Whenever these terrorist scum got caught their immediate response was that they were following the Koran.** {my emphasis - dda}.

' Sometimes we Americans have killed innocent people but I have never seen an instance there it was done intentionally.

"** I have seen where muslims have killed innocent people over and over again with no remorse and done intentionally.** {my emphasis - dda}.

'So remember bud, I am an Atheist so I do not care about Jebus or Mohammed but since I have actually been in these wars I have firsthand knowledge about the horrors of the middle east and Islamic world and you only get your information given to you by the MSM or a blog.

' far as the MSM they stayed their asses back in the green zone partying while we servicemen were in the field.

'Sorry I forgot to add, I did 2 year long deployments to Iraq in 2003 & 2004-2005
until I got injured in an IED attack that resulted in the deaths of 2 great Airmen and Sailors."


'Viewpoints' is a Muslim in a mask.

I'd bet on it.

Notice that he says *nothing whatever* about the posted article. He is not interested in that. He wants us to forget what it said, and what the Muslim jihad gang boss was reported as saying.

At all costs he is trying to distract us, or any other person who may happen in here now or at any time in the future, from contemplating the content of that article, and learning that Jihad is waged - by entirely orthodox mainline pious Muslims - in order to impose (Sunni, in that case) Muslim rule, and to impose and enforce the Sharia in its entirety (which, among other things, prescribes the cutting off of hands of thieves, the stoning of females who are alleged to have committed zina - sexual misconduct of some kind, and the imposition of the living hell that is dhimmitude, upon Jews and Christians.)

He pours forth a stream of sophistry, BS piled on BS, masses of factoids and semi-factoids (and in the past, whenever anyone has checked on those various claims, they turn out to be unreliable).

So I will say again: *if you lob in here, and you find that he or perhaps I should say It has posted a 'reply' to my statements above or here, then I advise you to ignore him. Take his continuing attempt to throw dust in your eyes, as a cue to scroll right back up to the top and reread the posted article*.

*Every* time he posts on a thread, *read the original article*. Every time he *continues* to post; *read the original article*, rather than allowing yourself to be sucked into his sandstorm of sophistries, factoids, falsehoods, whataboutery, and false equivalences.

More testimony about Islamic family life at village level in Afghanistan: and if 'viewpoints' tries to pretend that the observed and described practices are due entirely and solely to the presence and example of the Russians, or the British, or the Americans, then he's talking damned nonsense.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2007/02/45-yr-old-divorces-4-yr-old-wife.html

While in Afganistan, we ran a clinic for people in the village.

You wouldn't believe the number of abused women that were brought there.

**Young girls around six to 14. They were burned with scalding water, beat, had all kinds of damage to their reproductive organs.

Some women within an inch of their life. **

{This intensity and all-pervasiveness of sexual and other violence against girls of this age group is simply NOT HAPPENING in western societies. - dda}

I am sure a lot are killed and there is no reprocussions for the husbands. They were often brought by their husbands, who were about 20 to 30 years their senior.

They freak out when their young brides don't get pregnent or for any reason under the sun.

I think most these girls by nature just try to be kids, which they are, and their adult husbands can't take it.
A women thats older than 14 and not married is an old maid.

Any westren woman that would convert to Islam, should live in Afganistan."

Posted by: American_soldier at February 10, 2007 9:56 AM


Dumble, Gravenimage was the one who said Afghanistan was civlized.

here is the quote from Graven :
"It also doesn't explain why so many parts of Dar-al-Islam have *regressed*—Egypt and Iran were more civilized during the 1950s than they are today, and Afghanistan was more civilized during the 1970s than it was two decades later. Northern Mali was more civilized a few months ago than it is now.”

Dumble, you stated : " Notice that he says *nothing whatever* about the posted article"

Comment:

Every JW article repeats the same mantra and that is muslims are unique and different from other human beings.

And so I have to counter that by saying muslims are just like anybody else.

Every group whether religious or ideological have a tiny minority that are radical and some of them are also criminal.

I see 'viewpoints' is *still* trying to throw dust in our eyes.

Gravenimage, when she said that Afghanistan was 'more civilised' in the 1970s than it is now, was speaking in relative terms, not absolutely. It was 'more civilised' then than it is now, or than it was before a few of its ruling classes gained a superficial gloss of westernisation- or russification - but it was *also*, even at its most 'civilised', still vastly *less* civilised than just about any non-Muslim land one might care to name; what 'civilisation' it possessed was the thinnest and flimsiest veneer, like a thin layer of paint over a wall full of termites.

I don't deny that a Muslim is born with the same human potentialities as the rest of us. But people who - unluckily for themselves - are born into the Ummah, born to Muslim parents, and also those people who as evil or foolish or naive adults embrace Islam, are then **cult-programmed**: they are subjected to a system of mental enslavement and mental and psychological warping that is, perhaps, second to none; and on most of them it produces a dreadful derangement that is sometimes obvious and sometimes not so obvious (until they encounter some stressor, such as a family member apostasising, or their daughter making eyes at a non-Muslim boy).

I wonder whether 'viewpoints' would claim that graduates from the Hitler Youth, or from Hitler's SS training programmes, or those young people who were brainwashed to form the bullies and vandals of the 'Cultural Revolution' in Mao's China, or those who did the bidding of the Pol Pot, were 'just like anybody else'.

There is such a thing as being **trained to do evil**.

One may rightly *pity* someone who has been born into and brainwashed and brutalised by an evil human-sacrificing cult - often violently, or with an ever-present threat of violence hanging over them (and Mark Durie compares both the shahada and the dhimma to formal 'blood oaths', an occult/ black magic technique which is dangerously psychologically-binding and psychologically-warping) but it would be utterly foolish to expect that person, those people, to behave no differently from someone else who had all their life been trained to behave decently and kindly.

Would one expect an Aztec priest who had participated in, witnessed, carried out, ritual human sacrifices, to be no different from Brother Roger of Taize?

Further.

viewpoints claims that in any faith there are a 'tiny minority' who are 'radical'.

Define 'radical'.

Strictly speaking, a radical Jew is, say, a chabadnik.

A radical Christian is Brother Roger of Taize, or St Francis of Assisi, or the Lady Julian of Norwich.

A radical Muslim is, however...Mohammed Merah; imitating Mohammed the warlord, by waging war against the Infidels.

The imitatio Christi and the imitatio Mohammedi produce very different results, and even among the general run of followers of one figure, or the other, the difference between what kind of person they have been are taught from infancy to admire, and imitate, is going to have *some* general effect.

To further dispel the sorts of falsehoods that viewpoints is peddling or that he is trying to inculcate, I commend - to any reader who has persevered thus far - the following article by Australia's Rev Dr Mark Durie, who is very knowledgeable both about Islam and about Christianity.

It is called 'Twelve Bad Ideas'.

http://markdurie.blogspot.com/2011/02/twelve-bad-ideas-for-21st-century.html

Excerpt:

1/ The belief that all religions are the same.

- They are not. Different faiths make different claims about what is true, and about what is right and wrong **and produce radically different societies** {my emphasis - dda}...

2/ The belief that religion is irrelevant as a cause of anything.

According to this view, religion can be exploited or hijacked as an excuse or an instrument (e.g. of oppression – such as an ‘opiate of the masses’), but not BE an underlying cause of anything.

Marxist ideology has made a significant contribution to establishing this belief.

- In accordance with this assumption, security analysts all over the Western world presuppose that religion cannot be the cause of terrorism: so they and the politicans they advise must say that terrorists have ‘hijacked’ religion.



3/ The belief that we all worship the same God.

- We do not.
Thousands of different gods are worshipped by people on this earth.
These gods manifest different characteristics, and make different demands.
**The worship of them forms very different kinds of people and communities.** {my emphasis - dda}.

4/ The belief that one can justify anything from any sacred text.
- This is not true.
It is a postmodern fallacy that all meaning is in the eye of the beholder.
**Certain texts lends themselves to supporting particular beliefs and practices much more than others.** {my emphasis - dda}.

And number 7 is also particularly relevant:

The belief that everyone is good and decent, and if you just make a sincere effort to get to know another person, you will always come to respect them.

- This is not universally true. Holding this view is a luxury.

Those who have experienced life under evil governments or in dysfunctional societies are shocked at the naivety of this assumption....".

And now, as always, since 'viewpoints' is still soldiering busily on in defence of the faith (that is, Islam) and of the Ummah, trying to make us think that there is no problem, just a teeny tiny minority of extremists who have nothing *really* to do with Islam, and we shouldn't be worrying our pretty heads at all (except to ask ourselves what we have done to upset those poor, innocent, persecuted Muslims to make them so angry with us, and then to hasten to correct it, and pacify and mollify them), I will repeat my advice to whoever might happen to read this exchange: ** go right up to the top and reread the posted article, about the Sunni Muslim jihadi who intends to create a fully-sharia-compliant Sunni Muslim state in Syria**. That Muslim jihadist is not some sort of aberration: he's a revivalist, a Muslim who's 'got that old-time religion', a plain old common or garden pious orthodox Muslim, waging jihad fi sabil allah, just like the book tells him to do.

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