Ground Zero Mosque Imam Rauf accused of stealing donations, using them to finance lavish lifestyle

Why not? It was all just jizya from the ever-credulous kuffar, right?

This comes as no surprise. Everyone behind the Islamic supremacist Ground Zero mosque project was unsavory. Remember that Ground Zero Mosque developer Sharif El-Gamal owns a rat-infested slum with 400 violations, and owes NYC $61,633 in fines, fees and taxes. Rauf is a slumlord also, and as Pamela Geller has noted, he “snagged more than $2 million in public financing to renovate
low-income apartments” that he owned in New Jersey, but never made the
renovations. Where is that money?

Yet these two Islamic supremacist robber barons, Imam Faisal Rauf and Daisy Khan, were lionized relentlessly by the mainstream media at the height of the Ground Zero Mosque controversy, and are still treated with awed respect. No doubt this will not change that.

“Suit: Money funneled by former “˜Ground Zero” mosque imam to finance lavish lifestyle: Imam Feisel Abdul Rauf pocketed money for trips, real estate and a fancy car, the suit charges,” by Barbara Ross and Larry Mcshane for the New York Daily News, February 5 (thanks to all who sent this in):

Imam Feisel Abdul Rauf, founder and CEO of the American Society for Muslim Advancement, is being accused of swiping donation money intended for the “Ground Zero” mosque to enjoy a lavish lifestyle.

The former imam of the controversial “Ground Zero” mosque used millions of dollars in donations to fund a high-flying lifestyle, a bombshell lawsuit charges.

The court papers, filed Tuesday in Manhattan Supreme Court, say Imam Feisel Abdul Rauf pocketed $3 million from the Malaysian government and another $167,000 from private donors.

The money “” intended to fund The Shariah Index Project “” was used by Rauf and his wife Daisy to buy real estate, lavish trips and vacations, entertainment and a luxury sports car, the suit charged.

The project was controversial from the outset because of the cultural center’s proximity to Ground Zero, where thousands died as a result of Islamic extremism.

The mosque project, also known as the Cordoba Center, was intended to combat anti-Islamic sentiment while educating people about the religion.

Rauf was ousted as the religious leader of the planned Muslim community center in January 2011.

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Comments

  1. says

    Sucker Kuffar. Oh wells, we tried to tell you. Good luck getting your money back, probably not gonna happen. He laughed all the way to the bank.

  2. says

    “The mosque project, also known as the Cordoba Center, was intended to combat anti-Islamic sentiment while educating people about the religion.”

    Intended to combat anti-islamic sentiment? More like a project designed to cover up and lie about evil islam and company.

    Imam Rauf is a thief in more ways than one: not only by stealing donations, but by robbing us of the evil truth about islam and it’s evil agenda.

  3. says

    … Imam Feisel Abdul Rauf pocketed $3 million from the Malaysian government and another $167,000 from private donors.

    The money ” intended to fund The Shariah Index Project ” was used by Rauf and his wife Daisy to buy real estate, lavish trips and vacations, entertainment and a luxury sports car …

    Well, good on him! Better he should spend the money living high on the hog than promoting shariah!

  4. says

    Quick, quick, send the story to the editors of NYTimes!!! They will shout Islamophobes are creaing trouble again! These moronic clowns at NYT, if they only dig deep and find the truth about Islam and Muslims and Rauf and Khan instead of bellowing Islamophobia, we will all be better off nd they may even be called journalists otherwise they remain purveyors of yellow journalism!!

  5. says

    Well, well and tsk, tsk…so that “Man of Peace” himself, Mr. Taqiyya Sunrise, “builder of bridges,” has maybe had his little pinkys in the islamic cash register? And, to fund a life of luxury for himself and his wife, the arrogant and despicable Daisy Khan? Guess that pretty much makes a clean-sweep of the erstwhile mosqueteers; exposed as liars, deceivers, petty thugs and deadbeats (al-Gamal), slumlords, con-men–did I mention liars? I only hope there’s enough shame and disrepute to cover them in it for the rest of their lives…

  6. says

    Well, muhammad was a thief, so it stands to reason that *Ralf* would be one, too. Hey you guys need to cut him a break!

  7. says

    “The court papers, filed Tuesday in Manhattan Supreme Court, say Imam Feisel Abdul Rauf pocketed $3 million from the Malaysian government and another $167,000 from private donors.”

    One of the best news I read since Jesus was a nipper.

    I think the snake oil salesman as he is, will wiggle and slip out of this one too. Apparently he’s been writing a number of pro-Islamic speeches for O-Bah-Ma. He has support in the right places.

    sooner or later we are going to find out who was responsible for the repeated speeches about Bengazi. My suspicion lies with the snake-oil-salesman, Rauf.

  8. says

    Anybody with half a brain could easily see Rauf is slimy person years ago.

    To bad big bad Governor Chris Christy hasn’t sicked his attorney General on Rauf for the millions he has embezzled from the New Jersey Tax Payer. Oh that’s right Christy himself is a dhimmi who has defended putting a Muslim on the Superior Court and calls another Muslim a friend Imam Mohammad Qatanani who happens to be member of the Muslim Brotherhood. There in lies the trouble with Christy as a blow hard, he fails to look at both sides of an issue to many times as a Governor.

  9. says

    But he seemed like such a nice fellow..Everybody loved him..That would be the least I would expect from such an honest and trustworthy person as Rauf..Rauf? Is that like Ralphy Malphy or Raufy Maufy? Rouf the Mouf? Rouf the risque Mousky Mouf? There ya go..Mossky Mouf Rouf..The lyin’ connivin’ supposed mosque/bridge builder schmoozin’ with the kuffar technology and high lifin’ it with OPM..Other People’s Money!..

    Now who deserves a shootin’? Lars the kuffar or Rowf the Mowf?..

  10. says

    I’m praying his donors were stupid leftist retards, it’d be poetic justice to see the liberal stooges find out they were swindled by an operative of the murderous ideology that they’ve fallen madly in love with.

    The icing on the cake would’ve been if Imam Rauf smacked each of these dhimmis across the face when he collected their jizya.

    People who don’t learn from history repeat it and liberals are playing the role of the gullible morons that fell for the lies of the Islamofascist barbarian hordes.

    This is like the lesson of confronting a pacifist, punch him hard in the gut and if he keeps preaching about non-violence, punch him again, eventually reality will sink in.

  11. says

    Is it any surprise that this smooth talking Muslim turned out to be another Islamic shyster? He was as crooked as a three-dollar bill all along.

    But will that prevent the Obama administration from continuing to send him out to promote Islam across the world on the US taxpayers dime?

    We ex-Muslims living with Islam’s formal and informal death penalty for apostasy know that Islam is an evil religion/ideology both in part and on the whole.

    Imam Faisal Rauf is on record saying that he is in favor of the full implementation of Sharia law. What more need be said?

    From his 2000 book, Islam: A Sacred Law:

    Page 58: “And since a Shari’ah is understood as a law with God at its center, it is not possible in principle to limit the Shari’ah to some aspects of human life and leave out others.”

    Think about what that means. For one thing that means that he approves of Sharia law as it is applied in Saudi Arabia.

    The legal system of Saudi Arabia is based on Sharia, Islamic law derived from the Qu’ran and the Sunnah (the traditions) of the Islamic prophet Muhammad. Criminal law punishments in Saudi Arabia include public beheading, stoning, amputation and lashing. Serious criminal offences include not only internationally recognized crimes but also apostasy, adultery, witchcraft and sorcery.

    Criminal law in Saudi Arabia is governed by Sharia and comprises three categories: hudud (fixed Quranic punishments for specific crimes), Qisas (eye-for-an-eye retaliatory punishments), and Tazir, a general category. Hudud crimes are the most serious and include theft, robbery, blasphemy, apostasy, adultery, sodomy and fornication.

    Homosexual acts are punishable by flogging, imprisonment or death. Lashings are a common form of punishment and are often imposed for offences against religion and public morality such as drinking alcohol and neglect of prayer and fasting obligations.

    Polygamy is permitted for men but is limited to four wives at any one time. There is evidence that its practice has increased, particularly among the educated Hejazi elite, as a result of oil wealth. The government has promoted polygamy as part of a return to “Islamic values” program. In 2001, the Grand Mufti (the highest religious authority) issued a fatwa, or opinion, calling upon Saudi women to accept polygamy as part of the Islamic package and declaring that polygamy was necessary “to fight against…the growing epidemic of spinsterhood”. There is no minimum age for marriage in Saudi Arabia and the Grand Mufti reportedly said in 2009 that girls of the age of 10 or 12 were marriageable.

    Men have a unilateral right to divorce their wives (talaq) without needing any legal justification. The divorce is effective immediately. The husband’s obligation is then to provide financial support for the divorced wife for a period of four months and ten days. A woman can only obtain a divorce with the consent of her husband or judicially if her husband has harmed her. In practice, it is very difficult for a Saudi woman to obtain a judicial divorce. The right for men to marry up to four wives, combined with their ability to divorce a wife at anytime without cause, can translate to unlimited polygamy.

    Human rights issues and failings in the rule of law in Saudi Arabia have attracted strong criticism. These include criminal law punishments that are considered as cruel, as well as the position of women, religious discrimination, the lack of religious freedom and the activities of the Saudi Mutaween.

    The U.S. State department considers that “discrimination against women is a significant problem” in Saudi Arabia and that women have few political or social rights. After her 2008 visit, the UN special rapporteur on violence against women noted the lack of women’s autonomy and the absence of a law criminalizing violence against women (See Qur’an, 004.034).

    Every adult woman has to have a close male relative as her “guardian”. As a result, Human Rights organizations have described the position of Saudi women as no different to being a minor, with little authority over their own lives. The guardian is entitled to make a number of critical decisions on a woman’s behalf. These include giving approval for the woman to travel, to hold some types of business licenses, to study at a university or college and to work if the type of business is not “deemed appropriate for a woman.” Even where a guardian’s approval is not legally required, some officials will still ask for it. Women also face discrimination in the courts, where the testimony of one man equals that of two women, and in family and inheritance law (See Qur’an, 002.282).

    There is no legal protection of freedom of speech and Saudis are prohibited from publicly criticizing Islam. In 2010, the U.S. State Department stated that in Saudi Arabia “freedom of religion is neither recognized nor protected under the law and is severely restricted in practice” and that “government policies continued to place severe restrictions on religious freedom”. No faith other than Islam is permitted to be practised. There are no churches or other non-Muslim houses of worship permitted in the country. Proselytizing by non-Muslims is illegal. Conversion by Muslims to another religion (apostasy) carries the death penalty.

    >>>>>

    Here is a recent statement from a group of Bangladeshi apostates living in the UK explaining the reasons why they have abandoned Islam:

    “One who claims to be a messenger of God is expected to live a saintly life. He must not be given to lust, he must not be a sexual pervert, and he must not be a rapist, a highway robber, a war criminal, a mass murderer or an assassin. One who claims to be a messenger of God must have a superior character. He must stand above the vices of the people of his time. Yet Muhammad’s life is that of a gangster godfather. He raided merchant caravans, looted innocent people, massacred entire male populations and enslaved the women and children. He raped the women captured in war after killing their husbands and told his followers that it is okay to have sex with their captives (Qur’an 33:50). He assassinated those who criticized him and executed them when he came to power and became de facto despot of Arabia. Muhammad was bereft of human compassion. He was an obsessed man with his dreams of grandiosity and could not forgive those who stood in his way…

    The statement continues,

    Muhammad was a narcissist, like Hitler, Saddam or Stalin. He was astute and knew how to manipulate people, but his emotional intelligence was less evolved than that of a 6-year-old child. He simply could not feel the pain of others. He brutally massacred thousands of innocent people and pillaged their wealth. His ambitions were big and as a narcissist he honestly believed he is entitled to do as he pleased and commit all sorts of crimes and his evil deeds are justified.”

  12. says

    one of the earliest backers of the nonprofit group, the Cordoba Initiative, that is spearheading the Ground Zero mosque, is a 52-year-old Scarsdale, New York, native named R. Leslie Deak.serving on the group’s board of advisors since its founding in 2004 by Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, Deak was its principal funder, donating $98,000 to the nonprofit between 2006 and 2008.

    Deak describes himself as a “Practicing Muslim with background in Christianity and Judaism, [with] in-depth personal and business experiences in the Middle East, living and working six months per year in Egypt.” Born into a Christian home, Deak became an Orthodox Jew and married a Jewish woman before converting to Islam when he married his current wife, Moshira Soliman, with whom he now lives in Rye.

  13. says

    The above poster “Gunugn Semeru” is either a muslim himself or a muslim apologist; methinks he’s a muslim.

    Soooo he isn’t just pointing out that Deak was raised in a Christian home and then became a Jew who’s NOW a muslim for the heck of it, but to do what he likes to do most here on Jihad Watch, and that’s to serve his false god allah as a mohammedan troll and slave to this evil religion.

    He’s just another troll, guys …

  14. says

    Champ | February 6, 2013 4:14 PM | Reply
    The above poster “Gunugn Semeru” is either a muslim himself or a muslim apologist; methinks he’s a muslim.

    Think whatever you like if it helps you sleep better

    Soooo he isn’t just pointing out that Deak was raised in a Christian home and then became a Jew who’s NOW a muslim for the heck of it,

    So what is sooo wrong in pointing out the truth, sooo, pointing out that Deak, who,s family has been involved with laundering drug money, was christian/jew becoming a muslim. Which he had to do id he married a muslimah. How doe putting up here the facts, which can be found else where on the net.. how does that indicate I am a mohammedan troll.

    Rauf was a con-artist all along, and he was taking other muslims to the cleaners. And I am LMAO, he conned the Malasian government and also several other muslim.

    It seems that the mosque project was not built, more because the amount of money that he conned, thank with the efforts of Gellar/Mr Spencer.

    Rauf may never even have had intentions to build the mosque, and the whole thing was just a scam. What makes me think this is because, there was very little funding, and he took it all.

    but to do what he likes to do most here on Jihad Watch, and that’s to serve his false god allah as a mohammedan troll and slave to this evil religion.

    All gods are a figment of the imagination, whether it is allah, YHWH, Yahweh, Elohim.

    Unfortunately there’s some confusion over who the One True God actually is. Christians believe one thing, Muslims another, and the Jewish faith is different yet again.

    Christians, Jews, Muslims, Protestants, Catholics, and Seventh-Day Jehovah’s Mormons all devoutly worship the same Supreme Being. But the devil is in the details and, apart from confessing their devotion to the One True God, they can’t agree on anything else. Which is very sad as this has caused a lot of unnecessary pain and suffering. Millions of innocent men women and children murdered, all in the name of the one true god.

    Whether in business or religion, monopolies can be a very bad thing. Monotheism seems to bring out the worst in some people.

    The attempted genocide of Hindus in India by muslims, followed by the inquisition by the catholic saint Francis Xazier

    The Genocide of the Incas by the the catholics

    The countless massacre of Jews by prostetants and catholics

    The Armenian holocaust by muslim.

    The christian British aiding the malay muslims fighting against ethnic Chinese

    The Indonesian massacre by muslims with the backing of christian USA

    The genocide and mass rape in Bangladesh by muslims with the backing of christian USA.

    I have no love for religion, they and I have least love for islam.

    The massacre of christian Igbo in the Biafra war by muslims with aid from the christian british.

    The coptic chistians fighting along side mulsim during the Israel/arab wars.

    The christian USA/Britain, helping the muslims drug baron bomb christian Sebia

    Not forgetting the catholic involvement in the Rwanda blood bath

    Polytheism, with its acceptance of many Gods and multiple beliefs, is not only more friendly and more fun, it’s safer too.

    Your catholic/christian god is no more real than allah, both are just as false as

    SHANGO
    ELEGUA
    ORISHAS
    BUMBA
    RAVEN
    APOTAMKIN
    COYOTE
    WENDEGO
    SHIVA
    VARUNA
    GANESHA
    ASHWATTHAMA

    Or any other 3,700 weird and wonderful Gods, Supreme Beings, Demons, Spirits and Fabulous Beasts

  15. says

    Atheists are in the minority; which means the world is *filled* with people of faith, so GS must be a very lonely ole man. And with his attitude there’s too many people to hate and argue with–but too little time.

    My advice, focus on the real enemy: islam and company

  16. says

    LemonLime replied to comment from gravenimage | February 6, 2013 8:34 PM | Reply
    gravenimage, I think an Infidel can marry a Muslim woman, as long as he makes it clear he will convert soon. I believe there are also sometimes mitigating circumstances — i.e., a Muslima can marry a non-Muslim man who seems to be remaining a non-Muslim as the marriage goes along, as long as the marriage helps her advance the stealth jihad (cf. Huma Abedin).

    For the pair of you who have being rather permanent fixtures of this forum for such a long time, it is rather pathetic, you have not learnt so much.

    And L.L. in an earlier comment to me you advised me to stick around so I may learn something.

    You two are a joke, if after all this time you still not know that marriage between a muslimah and non muslim is strictly forbidden.

    Now let me quote for you two verses from the qur’an concerning the islamic ruling of a muslim woman marrying a non-muslim man. The first verse is mentioned in Surat Al-Baqarah, verse 221,

    “And do not give (believing women) in marriage to idolaters until they believe, and certainly a believing servant is better than an idolater, even though he should please you.”

    The second verse is no. 10 in Surat Al-Mumtahinah,

    “O ye who believe! When there come to you believing women refugees, examine (and test) them: allah knows best as to their Faith: if ye ascertain that they are Believers, then send them not back to the Unbelievers. They are not lawful (wives) for the Unbelievers, nor are the (Unbelievers) lawful (husbands) for them.”

    In the light of the foregoing verses and according to the practice of muslims, it is absolutely Haram (forbidden) for a muslim woman to get married to a non-muslim man. This is one of the basics of Islam, and any woman is not supposed to violate the ruling whatever the case maybe.

    Now, we have some relevant cases: If a muslim woman is married to a non-Muslim man believing that this is Halal (permissible) while being aware of the clear-cut proofs prohibiting this, then she has committed an act of disbelief by denying a ruling which has been established by Ijma’ (consensus of scholars).

    Another case is that of a non-muslim woman who has embraced Islam while her husband is still non-muslim. In this case, it is not wise, as Sheikh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi and a number of prominent scholars have stated, to tell the lady to leave her husband the moment she embraces Islam especially if she has kids and her husband can be convinced to convert to islam. So, in this case, the lady should work on her husband and try to give him time to consider islam in an attempt to embrace islam and resume their matrimonial life. If her husband accepts islam, then marriage is to be resumed; otherwise she has to leave him. If she stays with him then she will be committing a huge sin which might result also to the stage of Riddah (apostasy) if she gets to know the ruling and still prefers to stay with her husband.

    Yes she faces the death penalty

    More

    Consequently, when a non-muslim man begins a relationship with an observant Muslim woman, he is usually pressured to convert to Islam, and such conversion is made a condition of the marriage. Of course, laws are often honored in the breach, and this is not always true. So while we know that Huma Abedin’s parents were devout and observant muslims ” indeed, her father was an imam ” we don’t know what exactly is going on with her marriage to Anthony Weiner.

    Certainly the most likely scenario is that Weiner did convert to islam, as Abedin’s mother, a professor in Saudi Arabia, would almost certainly have insisted that he do so. Weiner has made no public statement of this conversion, but since it would almost certainly have cost him politically if he had announced it, this silence is not any indication that he didn’t actually convert.

    Robert Spencer

    http://www.jihadwatch.org/2011/06/spencer-interview-abedinweiner-a-marriage-made-by-hillary-clinton-and-the-muslim-brotherhood.html

    So either Wiener converted to islam, or Huma Abedin is a secular or non-observant muslim who doesn’t really care what others think, including her mother, and marries whom she pleases.

    So you pair of fools + Champ

    Remember

    Any non-muslim man entering into a relationship with a muslim women knows from the get-go that he either converts or he doesn’t marry a muslim. Also muslim families don’t appreciate people who fake it as a muslim, so either one converts out of faith or takes the bus home without the girl.

  17. says

    Graven.

    Sorry for for above comment, I did not see your response

    gravenimage replied to comment from exsgtbrown | February 6, 2013 8:12 PM | Reply
    exsgtbrown wrote:

    I wonder how Deaks’ wife felt about his conversion to Islam…
    ……………………………..

    Exsgtbrown, Deaks’ Jewish wife is now an ex.

    He “reverted” when he married his current wife, Moshira Soliman.

    And why? Because no “filthy Infidel” is permitted to marry a Muslim woman.

    Still doesn’t alter the fact I think you should learn the difference between Jihad and crime committed by muslims, until that time comes I will consider you a bigoted fool

    I believe islam is an evil ideology based on chinese rumours over a period of several hundred years, and muslim are forced with the threat of death to believe these rumours.

    Muslim men and women I have dealt and interacted with in recent years are becoming critical of their religion and blame the islamist lack of freedom, respect for human rights, equality for women and incitements against non-muslims.

    If more muslims don’t fear losing their heads or severe punishment if they embraced other beliefs or even question islam, millions of them would find something else to do.

    Muslims have been brainwashed since birth that mohammed was the perfect man, they have been fed these rumours, and not being told all of them, Take away the islamists, them islam stands a chance to reform or hopefull disappear.

  18. says

    Poster “Gunung Semeru” is NOT a team player.

    He’s nothing but a troll and a trouble maker; and for further proof, check out his comments from November 2012 here:

    http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/11/obamas-first-political-prisoner-on-the-glazov-gang.html

    And this is only one thread where he is fighting AGAINST the team …there are many more threads!

    He’s only here on Jihad Watcyh to put down others in the anti-jihad movement and to undermine Robert’s efforts.

    Clearly, GS is NOT here to join others in *good faith* to fight against the real enemy: islam and company.

    He’s only here to fight AGAINST those in the anti-jihad movement, not alongside them. Hmm, no wonder many consider him a mohammedan troll.

    Typical mohammedan tactic.

  19. says

    Some items for the consideration of those new to this site and this subject, re. the offtopic discussion of apparent violations of the sharia rule that a Muslim woman can only marry a Muslim man and that if she wants to marry a non-Muslim man, the man must convert.

    First:

    http://tulisanmurtad.blogspot.com.au/2012/07/muruna-violating-sharia-to-fool-west.html

    Excerpt:

    “By reversing Islamic law, muruna concludes an amazing doctrine that permits all prohibitions:

    ‘When evil and harm conflict as necessities demand, we must then choose the least of the two evils or harms. This is what the experts in jurisprudence decided … if interests and harms/evils conflict, or benefits conflict with evils, what is then to be decided is to review each benefit and each harm and its consequences, **so the minor evils are forgiven for the sake of the greater long-term benefit. ** {my emphasis – dda}.

    **The evil is also accepted even if that evil is extreme and normally considered deplorable ** {my emphasis – dda}.
    Consider the example of Huma Abedin, a practicing Muslim who married Jewish former Congressman Anthony Weiner. Qaradawi has used muruna to sanction such marriages…”.

    Second, John Quincy Adams, summing up Islam, its ultimate goal and the methods by which it seeks to attain that goal, in an essay from 1829, namely

    “Unsigned essays dealing with the Russo-Turkish War, and on Greece, written while JQA was in retirement, before his election to Congress in 1830″
    [Chapters X-XIV (pp. 267-402) in The American Annual Register for 1827-28-29. New York, 1830.]

    as discussed here –

    http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=F3F5C99B-338A-4BC1-A4B2-585EFE643619

    John Quincy Adams Knew Jihad
    By Andrew G. Bostom
    FrontPageMagazine.com | Wednesday, September 29, 2004

    “In the seventh century of the Christian era, a wandering Arab of the lineage of Hagar [i.e., Muhammad], the Egyptian, combining the powers of transcendent genius, with the preternatural energy of a fanatic, and the fraudulent spirit of an impostor, proclaimed himself as a messenger from Heaven, and spread desolation and delusion over an extensive portion of the earth.
    Adopting from the sublime conception of the Mosaic law, the doctrine of one omnipotent God; he connected indissolubly with it, the audacious falsehood, that he was himself his prophet and apostle.
    Adopting from the new Revelation of Jesus, the faith and hope of immortal life, and of future retribution, he humbled it to the dust by adapting all the rewards and sanctions of his religion to the gratification of the sexual passion.
    He poisoned the sources of human felicity at the fountain, by degrading the condition of the female sex, and the allowance of polygamy;
    **and he declared undistinguishing and exterminating war, as a part of his religion, against all the rest of mankind** {my emphasis – dda}.

    “…The precept of the Koran is, perpetual war against all who deny, that Mahomet is the prophet of God.

    “The vanquished may purchase their lives, by the payment of tribute; the victorious may be appeased by a false and delusive promise of peace; and the faithful follower of the prophet, may submit to the imperious necessities of defeat: but the command to propagate the Moslem creed by the sword is always obligatory, when it can be made effective.

    “The commands of the prophet may be performed alike, **by fraud** {my emphasis – dda}, or by force…”.

    And, finally, David Hume, that redoubtable Scottish sceptic, placing his finger firmly upon the principle of pure expediency as the main feature of Mohammedanism:

    
”But would we know, whether the pretended prophet had really attained a just sentiment of morals?

    “Let us attend to his narration; and we shall soon find, that he bestows praise on such instances of treachery, inhumanity, cruelty, revenge, bigotry, as are utterly incompatible with civilized society.

    “**No steady rule of right seems there to be attended to; and every action is blamed or praised, so far only as it is beneficial or hurtful to the true believers.”** {my emphasis – dda} – 
David Hume (1711-1776).

    Expediency rules, at bottom, in Islam. Amoral expediency. Not only force, but fraud; both murder *and* lies. If strong, Muslims murder and rob and terrorise. If weak, they deceive, dissemble and defraud.; and it is very easy to imagine how and why the normally very strict or ‘core’ Sharia ban on non-Muslim men having to convert to marry Muslim women, might be relaxed, under certain circumstances, if it was viewed – under those particular circumstances – as being likely to further the overall cause of promoting the expansion and dominance of Muslims over non-Muslims.

  20. says

    Graven wrote

    These aren’t “rumors””Muslims are bound by the texts of Islam”the Qur’an, the Hadith, and the Sira”to consider the baleful “Prophet” to be the “perfect man”.

    to clarify I regard the texts of Islam”the Qur’an, the Hadith, and the Sira”to consider the baleful “Prophet” to be the “perfect man as chinese.

    Even Mr Spencer stronger hints at this by even questioning if muhameed really existed.

    A recent book by Robert Spencer has the title, Did Muhammad Exist? The book is well-researched and deals with many historical issues. He describes the “canonical” story, that is, the common story told by Muslims, of Muhammad and then deals with the problems of supporting the story. The conclusion is that there is little to support the Muslim claims concerning the existence of Muhammad historically.

    Even the fact about how the texts where put together suggest they are no more than mythes (chinese rumours), with deadly consequences.

    What ever my status is in Indo is does not alter the fact that a former moderator, lied.

    Curiouser and curiouser. For one thing, an Infidel living with a Muslimah outside of marriage would be considered by orthodox Islam to be “adultery”, no matter how devoted a couple they might be.

    Pious Muslims would consider this situation every bit as Haram as that of an Infidel man marrying a Muslimah”possibly even more so.

    Agreed pious muslim think that it is haram

    What you do not know or your mind close out, that in Java it is no so straight forward as you think.

    There are two types of Javanese Islam. The most popular is Agami Jawi, “Javanese religion,” Abangan. The second type is a puritanical Islam known as Agami Islam Santri, “Santri Islam religion,” called Islam Santri

    Many Hindu-Buddhist gods called dewata with Sanskrit names are incorporated in Agami Jawi. Dewi Sri comes from Sri, the consort of Vishnu, and in Java is the goddess of fertility and rice.

    There are traditional pre-Hindu elements in the religion. Semar is the divine trickster acting as an intermediary between the gods and man, and in the wayang, the shadow-puppet play, he is a clown who is servant and guardian to the heroes of the Bratayuda, the Javanese version of the Mahabharata. Spirits are central to traditional Javanese belief and include ancestral spirits, guardian spirits who are the soul’s twin, and guardian spirits of holy places such as old wells, old banyan trees, and caves. There are also ghosts, spooks, giants, fairies, and dwarfs. Magic gives magical power to certain persons and parts of the body, plants, rare animals, and objects. Traditional concepts of death and the afterlife have been influenced by Islam.

    Agami Islam Santri doctrines are determined by dogmatic Islamic concepts. The shari’ah, Islamic law, is applied and the dominant legal school is that of al-Shafi’i. Besides the obligatory prayers five times a day, there are voluntary personal prayers called ndonga which can be at any time.

    Java has a population of 110 million. 97.3 per cent of these are officially Muslim. The remainder are Roman Catholics, Protestants, or Buddhists. In South Central Java there are recent converts to Hinduism.

    Only 5-10 per cent of llow Agami Islam Santri with 30 per cent following Agami Jawi. The rest are only nominal Muslims called abangan, whose religion is based more on animism, mysticism, Javanese Hinduism and Javanese Buddhism.

    Unfortunately it is the 5-10 % who follow Agami Islam Santri, locally known as Muslim Hitam (black muslim, evil muslim)

    But this odd situation may explain Gunung Semeru’s endless, desperate apologia for Islam here.

    Not apologia for islam, but apologia for many very decent humans who by fate happen to be muslim not by choice, but by the real threat of violence and death.

    Just because I believe unsavoury characters like Robinson, Firasat, Jones and Nakoula, do not do much to the image the CJM, doesn’t make me a muslim.

    You try and smear me as a muslim, yet you fail to see my point

    In England the EDL are portrayed by the media as thugs and nazis, having a leader who has three convictions of violence, plays right into the media,s hands. A lot of very good CJM people have left EDL because of Tommy Robinson and his violent ways.

    Do not take my word for it use google,

    If you want an organisation to be respected then you do not have a leader that, kick polices officers when on the ground, heads butts a soldier, or incites a mob of football hooligans. If the EDL are lead by a man who can not control his violent temper, the no average Joe is going to even listen to him or the EDL.

    I am afraid lady, you are and quite a few others here are suffering from the Charles Johnson Syndrone with a slight twist, he saw nazis under the bed, you see nasty muslims in the wardrobe.

    My concern is that Robinson, Firasat, Jones and Nakoula do more harm to the movement than good.

    You know Sweet Fanny Adam about islam in Indonesia, and you know even less about me. So no wonder I take offence from be accused of being a muslim.

    #1 Tommy Robinson (whatever his real name is) is not a Martyr, but a three time convicted thug, a martyr does not plead guilty, Robinson pleaded guilty to a crime, so much for his convictions, a true martyr doesn’t plead guilty and snivel.

    #2 Nakoula is a convicted con artist and a liar

    #3 Firasat is a liar. A fact that can be easily proved.

    #4 Jones is your good old fashioned homophobic red neck.

    Funny how many folks here can support the above, yet condemn Nick Griffins.

    And as the the action of Jones Nakoula and Firasat, I notice they don’t have the balls to come here a face the shiite they create, we have enough shit to contend with as it is, without scum like stirring it up, you can stick your freedom of speech if it means people on the other side of the world have to suffer.

    Screw you, it is a known fact that muslim go bonkers when the koran is set alight, I wonder if you would be happy if you or your kin where attacked or murdered,because of free speech you do not have to face up to the shit. For you free speech is cheap, for us we are the one who have to pay the price.

    We who live in islamic places also have the right to free speech, as as we are the ones to pay the price then we are the ones who should be considered, It is my house that could be destroyed or my family murdered, not yours.

    You know that riots and innocents are going to suffer, so allowing the Jones Nakoula and Firasat to go ahead in the name of free speech, you are in fact endorsing violence.

    We infidels and anti-jihadis behind the lines do not need the shiite stirred up by folks like your pathetic heroes, (Jones Nakoula and Firasat).

  21. says

    re my posting above.

    If the link in the ‘Rublev’ item is dead, that’s not a problem, because sufficient information – author and work – is still given. The link, strictly speaking, was not needed. One just looks for ‘Of The Standard of Taste’, and reads it. I see no reason to believe that the citation was fabricated; the poster, back then, spoke of going to a university library and sifting through the works of assorted Enlightenment thinkers to find out what if anything they had had to say about Islam.

    The John Quincy Adams summary of the goals and methods of Islam is relevant because it notes that not just force but *fraud* – that is, deceit – is one of the methods by which the aims of Islam are achieved.

    Fraud. Lying, Deceit. And one species of Islamic deceit is ‘muruna’, which was discussed in the other item I linked. So far as I could tell from the definition of muruna, a Muslima’s marriage to a non-Muslim man might, given certain exceptional circumstances, be justified as a case of ‘muruna': doing what is normally Islamically forbidden, breaching even a core element of the sharia, in order to serve *the* ultimate goal…advancing the power of the Ummah. Which brings us right back to David Hume and his astute observation, re. Islam, that “No steady rule of right seems there to be attended to; and every action is blamed or praised, so far only as it is beneficial or hurtful to the true believers.”

    What is perceived as ‘good for Islam’ is good, what is ‘bad for Islam’ is bad…and, further, how does Islam define ‘good’ and ‘bad’? At bottom, what seems to matter is whether some action can be interpreted as furthering Islam’s ultimate goal: Total World Domination for the Muslim Ummah, and the conversion, subjugation or extermination of all non-Muslims.

    *In general* the sharia rule that Muslimahs shouldn’t marry non-Muslims unless the men convert first, is strictly followed; but one can see that if other Islamic rules can be bent or broken on certain occasions in order to conduct Jihad (think of Jihadis shaving off beards, donning western clothes, drinking alcohol, so as to be seen as harmless secularised party animals rather than as dangerous fanatical plotters), then I don’t see why this one might not be ‘bent’ also, every now and again.

    Post scriptum. He claims that his woman is not a Muslim but a ‘cultural Muslimah’. Fine: but nevertheless, so long as she has not apostasised, so long as she has not renounced the shahada, she’s a Muslim. What would happen to her if she publicly apostasised? *Could* she publicly apostasise?

  22. says

    David Hume, an atheist, who did not have much good to say about any religion.

    After reading a summary, I don’t think I will be bothered.

    Of the Standard of Taste was a seminal essay on aesthetics that is innovative because it requires Hume to address the apparent relativity of taste, a conclusion that appears to follow from his own assumption that the “good” or “beauty” of a good work of art is identical with the positive human responses it generates. The essay’s focus on the subject (the viewer, the reader) rather than the object (the painting, the book) is typical of the British “sentimentalists” or moral sense theorists of the eighteenth century. Unlike the French philosophers of the eighteenth century, who sought an objective definition of beauty, the British school tended to look for the connections between taste and moral judgments.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Dissertations#Of_the_Standard_of_Taste

    —————————–

    And how big a pinch of salt must we take with Whalid Shoebats explanation of muruna.

    How about checking a more reliable source, not speculation from Whalid when it suits your arguement.

  23. says

    The question in my mind is why would this Deak guy donate even a single cent to Rauf and his cohorts??? Never ever trust a Muslim!!

  24. says

    Victory Over Islamic Influence at the National Defense University Foundation

    by Jerry Gordon (June 14, 2011)

    “An National Defense University Foundation (NDUF) board member had challenged Deak concerning his support for the controversial Ground Zero Mosque in Lower Manhattan sponsored by the Cordoba Initiative as well as his contacts with the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood following the fall of the Mubarak regime.

    Deak’s Washington Muslim Advocacy Connection – the Buxton Initiative.

    An honorary director of the Buxton Initiative is Imam Mohamed Magid, the Executive Director of the All Dulles Area Muslim Society, ADAMS Center, in Sterling, Virginia one of the largest Islamic Centers in the Washington Metropolitan Area. Magid is the son of the Grand Mufti of the Sudan. He currently is President of the Islamic Society of North America, a Muslim Brotherhood front group designated as an unindicted co-conspirator in the 2008 Federal Holy Land Foundation trial and convictions.”

    http://www.newenglishreview.org/print.cfm?pg=custpage&frm=7937&sec_id=91513

  25. says

    Allah does not give gifts ordinarily, but he does make a lot of loans, with really high interest rates, and severe punishment for late payments…No one knows why Allah needs money, but he may have some expenses we don’t know about…

  26. says

    Christian, Jewish, Mahoundian…Now that’s sliding down hill fast…Deak is a seeker who thinks he has found, ‘Eureka’ means ‘I have found it’…Often represented as a light bulb lighting up…Enlightenment and clarity…He converted to Islam for marriage purposes, I doubt he had a ‘Eureka’ moment…

  27. says

    Aha, so Deak is a Muslim – that explains his support for GZM and Rauf the Mouf!! and now he is suing him – probably Rauf the Mouf cut him off the Malaysian grant.

  28. says

    Born into a Christian home, Deak became an Orthodox Jew and married a Jewish woman before converting to Islam when he married his current wife, Moshira Soliman, with whom he now lives in Rye.

    While Rauf is living in Clover.

  29. says

    Ground Zero Mosque Imam Rauf accused of stealing donations, using them to finance lavish lifestyle
    ……………………….

    Well, I agree with Papa Whiskey”as appalled as I am to learn this, I am actually relieved, as well. This is true whenever I hear about garden-variety Muslim corruption”I think, well, at least they aren’t using that Jizya to fund Jihad and the imposition of Shari’ah. And that is *exactly* what Rauf would be using it for if he wasn’t living so high on the hog.

    After all, would we really be happier if this money was going to fund the “The Shariah Index Project”?

    I don’t care about the Muslim donors”the joke’s on them”but one wonders when, if ever, Infidels are going to get a clue about Islam and stop funding it. Suicidal madness.

  30. says

    exsgtbrown wrote:

    I wonder how Deaks’ wife felt about his conversion to Islam…
    ……………………………..

    Exsgtbrown, Deaks’ Jewish wife is now an ex.

    He “reverted” when he married his current wife, Moshira Soliman.

    And why? Because no “filthy Infidel” is permitted to marry a Muslim woman.

  31. says

    gravenimage, I think an Infidel can marry a Muslim woman, as long as he makes it clear he will convert soon. I believe there are also sometimes mitigating circumstances — i.e., a Muslima can marry a non-Muslim man who seems to be remaining a non-Muslim as the marriage goes along, as long as the marriage helps her advance the stealth jihad (cf. Huma Abedin).

  32. says

    “Yes Champ, this Gunung character seems to have a checkered record here on JW comments.”

    Hi, LemonLime …yes, I’ve discovered a few threads with some real whoppers from him, but I only posted one in my above comment. I mean he’s either a mohammedan troll or utterly clueless about what it means to be a team player. Either way he’s completely dishonest.

  33. says

    Champ | February 7, 2013 3:40 AM | Reply

    Clearly, GS is NOT here to join others in *good faith* to fight against the real enemy: islam and company.

    He’s only here to fight AGAINST those in the anti-jihad movement, not alongside them. Hmm, no wonder many consider him a mohammedan troll.

    You miss the point wildly,

    I am not against those in the anti-jihad movement, I am against those who bring negative attention to the movement.

    #1 Nakoula. a drug dealer, con artist who has according to Whalib Shoebat has connections to islamist

    #2 Tommy Robinson. convicted three times for violence, and one for passport fraud. Plus he tried to shield a founding member who was a pedophile, One of the main reasons the EDL has declined from thousands of supporter to less than a hundred at demos.

    #3 Imran Firasat. A blatant liar and suspected murderer. A man who ditched he wife a children in Indonesia.

    Admittedly I do not know so much, about Nakoula. what I do know he has said nothing new. And what he did show in his film, would go over the heads of most people,

    Tommy Robinson is another case, I have been following EDL since day one. Many people including myself thought he was suitable to lead the EDL, And where willing to give him the benefit of the doubt about his conviction, he blew it because he gathered two more convictions for violence. The courts in England have not tried to restrict him, he was not jailed after his second and third conviction, and the courts did not issue an An anti-social behaviour order or ASBO a civil order made against a person who has been shown, on the balance of evidence, to have engaged in anti-social behaviour, which would have restricted Robison from attending demos.

    Today, thanks to the mismanagement of EDL most of the members have left quite a few have started new groups, some of them are now in league with neo-nazis. Even Paul Weston has now put a distance to EDL.

    We had a person here from EDL Jan was his name, he correctly pointed out I was banned from EDL, but he was not entirely truthful

    I do not know how much people here know about Charlene Downes, well it is a very gruesome story.

    Both the EDL and BNP held demo in Blackpool, I was banned from EDL because I was opposed to the racial undertones of the demo, including the threat of violence to people who have been acquitted of the crime.

    From admin – you’ve been banned twice before – the last time for your disgusting posts about the grieving parents of a murdered child. Because this is a new forum you were given yet another chance but alas you’ve shown yourself to be the same, no nothing, nasty, arrogant slimeball you’ve always been. That was your last chance –

    on your bike no mark and don’t come back – you’re toxic. Ruby

    Oh how honest of Ruby. She did not mention that there has been a major change concerning EDL and Charlene Downes case

    I was banned for writing very much what can be found in the link below

    http://thenorthernmonkeymedia.wordpress.com/2013/01/01/search-for-the-truth-charlene-downes/

    Plus the fact that she wrote that I am married to a muslim, that is false, I live with a cultural muslimah, I refuse to convert.

    The above article was not written by anti-EDL but by pro EDL, my problem was I spoke out too early, but I spoke out not because I was anti-EDL, but because I did not what egg throw into EDL,s face.

    I am of the firm belief that because CJM have so many opponents who see the CJM as bigots, the CJM must be 1001% as to what it claims, Islam is evil, so the CJM has no reasons to fabricate falsehoods.

    I was also banned because of my extreme pro Israeli stance, the ban was instigated by a mod named Villa Loyal, who turned out to be a Nazi infiltrator.

    http://paulaustinmurphyseverythinganything.blogspot.com/2012/11/villaloyal-nazi-who-tried-to-destroy-edl.html

    By the way, Paul Austin Murphy was also behind the excellent Blog

    http://theenglishdefenceleagueextra.blogspot.com/

    But in Pauls own words

    Because he was on the Forum so much he had made lots of friends. And because he was called “VillaLoyal’ and pretended to like football (maybe he does) that must have also endeared him to many people on the EDL forum (especially Villa fans). Thus many EDL must have been keen to believe his obvious lies. They did. I was banned from the Forum. First my blog was taken away. Then my posts and finally I couldn’t even get on.

    Paul is one of many good people from the CJM, who have been chased out of the EDL by nazis,

    Most of you who take offence about what I write have never even debated on the EDL forum, let alone visited. Most of you do not have a clue about EDL

    As for Firast, He is not what you would like he to be, I live in Indonesia, and if what he says is true about his anti-jihad activities, the we here in Indo would have heard about it. The police would not taken attention against him unless it is initiated by an organisation such as FPI.

    Tangerang, where he was living is a hotspot for FPI, here they go hand in hand with the police, so there is no way the FPI did not know about this case. If what he says is true then it would have been big news. Much bigger than a murder. You don’t see the islamist protesting murder, but blasphemy
    the come out in force.

    There was a murder June 10, 2010,
    Firasat left Indo July 7, 2010
    Triana Dengah Firasat,s mistress was arrested July I0, 2010

    Firasat claims they had actually conducted a full trial and convicted him July 16, 2010

    This claim is not possible, things do not work that fast here

    Also

    Director General of Criminal Investigation Metro Jaya Police Commissioner Rudolf Nahak Herrera told reporters on Thursday Dec 23 2010

    all those involved will be charged with murder in conjunction with Article 338 of the Book of the Law 340 of the Penal Code on premeditated murder with a maximum penalty of death.

    Because the maximum penalty is death Spain did not send him back to Indonesia

    I challenge anyone to find any CJM activity before 2012. In Spain or in Indonesia.

    Before he moved to Indonesia he was not known for CJM activity but hero for love

    So much for hero for love, taking up with a mistress and leaving his wife and kids in indonesia.

    We should be hearing more shortly as his appeal has been turned down

  34. says

    LemonLime wrote:

    gravenimage, I think an Infidel can marry a Muslim woman, as long as he makes it clear he will convert soon. I believe there are also sometimes mitigating circumstances — i.e., a Muslima can marry a non-Muslim man who seems to be remaining a non-Muslim as the marriage goes along, as long as the marriage helps her advance the stealth jihad (cf. Huma Abedin).
    ………………………

    True, LemonLime”but this phenomenon is *extraordinarily rare*, and found mostly in the West among, for want of a better term, the “cultural elites”.

    Generally speaking, an Infidel must convert if he is to marry a Muslimah”I believe that this is exactly what happened here.

  35. says

    True, LemonLime”but this phenomenon is *extraordinarily rare*, and found mostly in the West among, for want of a better term, the “cultural elites”.

    Check out George Galloway

    Not all muslim nations are so strict, it is possible in Indonesia if you know the Loop holes. Legally it is possible, within the community you are walking on very thin ice, Most men do not want the hassle and just convert regardless.

    Many English guys marry islamicly an indonesian women, expect the women can go back to the UK with them, oh what a surprise they get as the The does not recognise islamic marriage.If the do not register at civil office here in Indonesia, problem is the civil office can only deal with non muslim marriages, muslims must register at the mosque. It is beginning to happen the the mosque is demand that men who want to convert so the can marry, must undergo circumcision,

    Th only way here is to marry in Singapore or Bangkok, the by law the civil of must register the marriage even though it is mixed.

    It is also possible to go the temporary marriage way, as the male does not have to prove he is a muslim, the oman is all too happy for his fee and a little present.

  36. says

    Additional to the above.

    First, the reference for the David Hume quote, which was diligently unearthed by a jihadwatch poster named ‘Rublev’ and shared here at this forum no less than eight years ago.

    “Of the Standard of Taste: Paragraph 4″ (1757)

    http://www.mnstate.edu/gracyk/courses/phil%20of%20art/hume%20on%20taste.htm#p4

    Posted by: Rublev at September 4, 2004 1:17 PM’.

    Eternal gratitude to the diligent Rublev.

    Second: I did not adequately proofread my comment above. I had originally written it with a focus on Muslim women being banned from marrying (unconverted-to-Islam) non-Muslim men, then rewrote it to focus on the requirement that non-Muslim men convert to marry Muslimahs…but did not fully rewrite it. Apologies.

    For the section in the above that reads “it is very easy to imagine how and why the normally very strict or ‘core’ Sharia ban on non-Muslim men having to convert to marry Muslim women, might be relaxed, under certain circumstances..”

    read “it is very easy to imagine how and why the normally very strict or ‘core’ Sharia rule that non-Muslim men must convert in order to marry Muslim women, might be relaxed, under certain circumstances…”.

  37. says

    Gunung Semeru wrote:

    LemonLime replied to comment from gravenimage…

    gravenimage, I think an Infidel can marry a Muslim woman, as long as he makes it clear he will convert soon. I believe there are also sometimes mitigating circumstances — i.e., a Muslima can marry a non-Muslim man who seems to be remaining a non-Muslim as the marriage goes along, as long as the marriage helps her advance the stealth jihad (cf. Huma Abedin).

    For the pair of you who have being rather permanent fixtures of this forum for such a long time, it is rather pathetic, you have not learnt so much.

    And L.L. in an earlier comment to me you advised me to stick around so I may learn something.

    You two are a joke, if after all this time you still not know that marriage between a muslimah and non muslim is strictly forbidden.
    …………………………

    This is”as Gunung Semeru later grudgingly acknowledges”not the point I was making at all.

    And yet, it is clear that LemonLime is correct in his citing of the Huma Abedin case. Clearly, she either married an Infidel”a Jew, no less!”without his converting to Islam, or with his converting so quietly that it is not publicly known.

    That is not something that could happen in most of Dar-al-Islam.

    More to the point, though, is that Gunung Semeru believes he has “caught us out” on some point”that is, that he can discredit anything LemonLime or I say.

    More:

    So you pair of fools + Champ
    …………………………

    And here, he is doing the same to Champ. In other places, he has said similar things about Jan and Dumbledore’s Army.

    None of this has taken the form of respectful disagreement”even of the heated variety.

    Instead, he is attempting to broadly discredit frequent posters here”I believe this is very much of a piece with his constant apologia for Islam. If he can cast doubt on the assertions of those who comment frequently, he can”as he imagines”cast doubt on the critics of Islam in general.

    More:

    Here is part of his “apology” to me:

    Still doesn’t alter the fact I think you should learn the difference between Jihad and crime committed by muslims, until that time comes I will consider you a bigoted fool
    …………………………

    This reference is to my thinking it likely that an Infidel woman in the UK who went unveiled and worked at a Victoria’s Secret Shop and who suffered an acid attack from an assailant in a Niqab was likely assaulted by a Muslim.

    I believe that this is common sense, not ‘bigotry’.

    More:

    I believe islam is an evil ideology based on chinese rumours over a period of several hundred years, and muslim are forced with the threat of death to believe these rumours.
    …………………………

    Huh? Muslims are being forced to believe “Chinese rumors”? Is he implying that Muslim savagery is nothing but a “Chinese rumor”? Is he implying that Muslims are being threatened with death by the Chinese? This is completely incoherent.

    More:

    Muslims have been brainwashed since birth that mohammed was the perfect man, they have been fed these rumours, and not being told all of them, Take away the islamists, them islam stands a chance to reform or hopefull disappear.
    …………………………

    These aren’t “rumors””Muslims are bound by the texts of Islam”the Qur’an, the Hadith, and the Sira”to consider the baleful “Prophet” to be the “perfect man”.

    More:

    Plus the fact that she wrote that I am married to a muslim, that is false, I live with a cultural muslimah, I refuse to convert.
    …………………………

    Curiouser and curiouser. For one thing, an Infidel living with a Muslimah outside of marriage would be considered by orthodox Islam to be “adultery”, no matter how devoted a couple they might be.

    Pious Muslims would consider this situation every bit as Haram as that of an Infidel man marrying a Muslimah”possibly even more so.

    But this odd situation may explain Gunung Semeru’s endless, desperate apologia for Islam here.

  38. says

    DDA

    #1 You keep repeating your self with the comment from Rublev.

    Firstly what David Hume has to say about islam has nothing to do with mixed marriage

    secondly the link is dead

    #2 The link to

    http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=F3F5C99B-338A-4BC1-A4B2-585EFE643619

    has nothing to do with mixed marriage

    #3 The third link to Whalid Shoebat

    Interesting but does not throw any new light on the marriage. We know nothing about the relationship, but the most probable answer is he converted.

  39. says

    Gunung Semeru wrote:

    Graven wrote

    These aren’t “rumors””Muslims are bound by the texts of Islam”the Qur’an, the Hadith, and the Sira”to consider the baleful “Prophet” to be the “perfect man”.

    to clarify I regard the texts of Islam”the Qur’an, the Hadith, and the Sira”to consider the baleful “Prophet” to be the “perfect man as chinese.

    Even Mr Spencer stronger hints at this by even questioning if muhameed really existed.
    …………………………..

    Whether Muhammed existed as a full historical figure, an amalgamation of several dark ages warlords, or was created out of whole cloth by later generations of Muslims matters little in this context.

    The status of the “Prophet” as the perfect man is a core Islamic concept. Whether you are trying to claim that this concept was invented by the Chinese, or whether “Chinese rumor” is some sort of Indonesian idiom meaning “untruth” makes no difference.

    This is something that every pious Muslim believes.

    More:

    What ever my status is in Indo is does not alter the fact that a former moderator, lied.
    …………………………..

    What “former moderator” was “lying”? Is this a reference to the EDL?

    More:

    Curiouser and curiouser. For one thing, an Infidel living with a Muslimah outside of marriage would be considered by orthodox Islam to be “adultery”, no matter how devoted a couple they might be.

    Pious Muslims would consider this situation every bit as Haram as that of an Infidel man marrying a Muslimah”possibly even more so.

    Agreed pious muslim think that it is haram

    What you do not know or your mind close out, that in Java it is no so straight forward as you think.
    …………………………..

    There is nothing new about this. Islam has been practiced laxly at many times and in many places. For instance, unmarried couples lived together in northern Mali. When pious Muslims imposed Shari’ah there, several poor couples were stoned to death, their children left orphans.

    Indonesia is not immune to the increased Islamization that is occurring in so much of the Muslim world; aspects of Shari’ah have been imposed in Aceh. Stoning is now on the books there, although it has not yet been carried out. Other parts of Indonesia are not so far gone”not yet, any way.

    More:

    There are two types of Javanese Islam. The most popular is Agami Jawi, “Javanese religion,” Abangan. The second type is a puritanical Islam known as Agami Islam Santri…
    …………………………..

    There is nothing at all unusual about this. Islam in many places has been lax, unorthodox, or adopted elements of other, local faith traditions. We have seen increased Islamization”including stamping out local, “un-Islamic” variations that may have crept into the practice of Islam in Turkey, Mali, Syria, Malaysia, Yemen, Sudan, Bosnia, and many other places”including Indonesia.

    More:

    But this odd situation may explain Gunung Semeru’s endless, desperate apologia for Islam here.

    Not apologia for islam, but apologia for many Semar is the divine trickster acting as an intermediary between the gods and man…
    …………………………..

    If you are attempting to preserve some version of syncretistic Islam, then you have your work cut out for you. Most of the Islamic revivals have been for completely orthodox Islam.

    In addition, the prevalence of unorthodox Islam in Java has *not* precluded Muslim violence against Infidels. This is either being carried out by those syncretistic Muslims, or else the more orthodox elements are making their baleful presence known:

    “Indonesian blasphemy law sparks Muslim violence in Java”

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/feb/15/indonesia-blasphemy-sectarian-violence-philip

    There have also been attacks on Ahmadis and Christians there.

    More:

    Just because I believe unsavoury charactevery decent humans who by fate happen to be muslim not by choice, but by the real threat of violence and death.
    …………………………..

    Well, it’s true that Muslims can not easily leave their vile creed, given the penalties for “blasphemy” and apostasy. But if you also believe that Muslims have no choice but to riot and murder, then you believe that Muslims are so far gone that they no longer have even vestigial free will, and can no longer be considered fully human. I don’t believe that.

    More:

    Just because I believe unsavoury characters like Robinson, Firasat, Jones and Nakoula, do not do much to the image the CJM, doesn’t make me a muslim.

    You try and smear me as a muslim, yet you fail to see my point
    …………………………..

    I never said you were a Muslim”I said that you are a Muslim apologist. A Muslim apologist may indeed be Muslim”but they may also be a fearful dhimmi, or someone deep in “politically correct” denial about the threat of Islam.

    Certainly, your sole purpose here is to whitewash Islam and disparage those standing up against the threat of Jihad.

    More:

    In England the EDL are portrayed by the media as thugs and nazis…
    …………………………..

    Yes”and Robert Spencer and Pamela Geller are portrayed as inspiration for mass murderer Anders Breivik. Just because people have been so characterized in the media does not make it so.

    More:

    I am afraid lady, you are and quite a few others here are suffering from the Charles Johnson Syndrone (sic) with a slight twist, he saw nazis under the bed, you see nasty muslims in the wardrobe.
    …………………………..

    What crap. There *nothing* mythical about those 20,000-plus Jihad terror attacks just since 9/11. We see ample evidence of the global threat of Islam here at Jihad Watch every day.

    Anyone wondering what the “Charles Johnson” reference is all about, JW covers some of that here:

    “The great Nazi-hunter Charles Johnson bags another”

    http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/03/the-great-nazi-hunter-charles-johnson-bags-another.html

    Believing the Tea Party to be a hotbed of Neo-Nazism is delusional”believing the stoning of “adulterous” couples in Mali to be an atrocity is not.

    More:

    My concern is that Robinson, Firasat, Jones and Nakoula do more harm to the movement than good.
    …………………………..

    Yes”and, no doubt, that is why you have advocated that they be imprisoned and silenced for daring to oppose Islam. sarc/off

    I believe that solid critics like Robert Spencer, Daniel Pipes, and David Wood make a better case than any of the above figures”but to imply that this means that these people should be imprisoned on blasphemy charges is not only grotesque, but it would soon shut down more thoughtful critics, as well.

    The above, in fact, shows that you understand *nothing* about freedom of speech. If someone wants to burn a Qur’an or make an amateurish film criticizing Islam, that is their absolute right.

    More:

    You know Sweet Fanny Adam about islam in Indonesia, and you know even less about me. So no wonder I take offence from be accused of being a muslim.
    …………………………..

    Actually, I know plenty about Islam in Indonesia. Muslim violence against Hindus, Christians, animists, and “heretical” Muslims such as the Ahmadi is rife there, and aspects of Shari’ah are part of the law”including the appalling “blasphemy” laws.

    Indonesia is not as bad as places like Pakistan, Afghanistan, Yemen, Sudan, and Somalia”but it’s bad enough. And given the revival of purely orthodox Islam in Aceh and beyond, it’s getting much worse.

    More:

    #4 Jones is your good old fashioned homophobic red neck.
    …………………………..

    Well, I agree. I disagree with Pastor Terry Jones on any number of matters. But he has *every right* to peacefully criticize Islam. And that’s the whole point of peaceful freedom of speech”he can state his views on gay rights, and I can oppose them. No one has the right to shut down his peaceful freedom of speech”I champion his right to speak, even on issues where I completely disagree with him.

    More:

    And as the the action of Jones Nakoula and Firasat, I notice they don’t have the balls to come here a face the shiite they create, we have enough shit to contend with as it is, without scum like stirring it up, you can stick your freedom of speech if it means people on the other side of the world have to suffer.
    …………………………..

    You’re implying here that if Nakoula is to be considered a brave man, that it is incumbent on him to return to Egypt so that he can be murdered by the state.

    In that case, Robert Spencer should ditch his security and allow violent Muslims to kill him.

    Bullsh*t.

    Also, I grasp your “reasoning””violent Muslims are not to be blamed for their savagery”instead, it is those who have the temerity to point out that Islam is violent who are to blame.

    This is the very essence of dhimmitude.

    The idea that if *only* the West crushed its own freedom of speech to comply with Shari’ah that threatened Infidels in Dar-al-Islam would be safe is *utter rot*.

    Anyone who knows the history of Infidel minority populations in the Muslim world knows that this is utterly false. Do you believe that the Armenian Genocide was caused by mouthy Westerners?

    You show absolute contempt for our hard-won freedoms, even though scrapping them would only embolden Islam further.

    More:

    Screw you, it is a known fact that muslim go bonkers when the koran is set alight, I wonder if you would be happy if you or your kin where attacked or murdered,because of free speech you do not have to face up to the shit. For you free speech is cheap, for us we are the one who have to pay the price.
    …………………………..

    Once again, Gunung Semeru has not a word of condemnation for homicidal Muslims, but is enraged over Westerners engaging in freedom of speech.

    Moreover, his claim that We4sterners have not had to “pay the price” of exercising their freedom of speech is just bizarre”consider Theo van Gogh, murdered in an Amsterdam street; Kurt Westergaard, attacked by a pious Muslim with an ax in his own home; Molly Norris, forced to change her name and go into hiding; and Charlie Hebdo, whose offices were firebombed by pious Muslims”there are many, many more cases.

    Moreover, check his base premises”that there *should* be a “price to pay” in criticizing Islam, and that that price should be death and the threat of death.

    Repulsive.

    More:

    You know that riots and innocents are going to suffer, so allowing the Jones Nakoula and Firasat to go ahead in the name of free speech, you are in fact endorsing violence.
    …………………………..

    What *utter crap*. This is the same argument made by every other apologist for Islamic savagery”that those criticizing that savagery are the ones responsible for it.

    Also, note his reference to “allowing” them to speak”he wants the free West to enforce blasphemy laws, so that no one is allowed to criticize Islam.

    And does he really want us to believe that violent Muslims only respond negatively to guys like Nakoula and Jones? Of course not. If that were true, then thoughtful critics like Robert Spencer would not be the recipient of death threats”yet clearly, he is.

  40. says

    Ooops

    to clarify I regard the texts of Islam”the Qur’an, the Hadith, and the Sira”to consider the baleful “Prophet” to be the “perfect man as chinese.

    Should read as

    to clarify I regard the texts of Islam”the Qur’an, the Hadith, and the Sira”to consider the baleful “Prophet” to be the “perfect man as chinese whispers

    Chinese whispers (or telephone in the United States is a game played around the world, in which one person whispers a message to another, which is passed through a line of people until the last player announces the message to the entire group. Errors typically accumulate in the retellings, so the statement announced by the last player differs significantly, and often amusingly, from the one uttered by the first. Some players also deliberately alter what is being said in order to guarantee a changed message by the end of it.

  41. says

    Gunung Semeru wrote:

    to clarify I regard the texts of Islam”the Qur’an, the Hadith, and the Sira”to consider the baleful “Prophet” to be the “perfect man as chinese whispers
    ……………………..

    I really don’t much care whether the terrible stories about Muhammed were completely historically accurate; whether they were exagerations based on real events; or whether they were, as you propose, passed from person to person, becoming increasingly uglier with each retelling.

    In any case, they were certainly codified by the 9th century at the latest. Muslims have revered and modeled themselves on the appalling “Prophet” Muhammed of the Qur’an, the Hadith, and the Sira for at least twelve centuries now.

  42. says

    Re Hume.

    Irrespective of anything else he may have said, I think that when he identified expediency – I would say, ruthless expediency – as one of *the* marks of Islam, I think he was spot on.

    You may choose to think he got it wrong.

    I don’t.

    Everything I’ve seen of Islam in action ‘fits’ with that hypothesis.

    It fits with JQA’s perception, too: that the goals of Islam may be achieved either by force, or by fraud. Do you regard yourself as knowing more about Islam than John Quincy Adams? Are you a wiser, better educated, more knowledgeable man than he? Sorry, I really don’t think so.

    I have read just about everything here, since the beginning. And along the way, many, many people with direct personal experience of Muslims – Muslims living within the West, Muslims in the Muslim world – have shared their various up-close-and-personal experience of the mind-bending extent to which Muslims are capable of deception, sheer brazen lies, nonsense, madhattery and BS. Especially if it enables them to defraud, cheat, and generally harm an infidel ‘mark’. I have encountered so many of these, by now, in this forum, that I have a special e-clippings file labelled ‘Islam and lying’, where the most striking stories are copied and kept.

    I will add, too, that I have had personal experience, myself, of the fact that Muslims lie, cheat and defraud as naturally and easily as breathing; and that a friend of mine, a lawyer, who was unlucky enough to have to represent a Muslim client, also discovered this miserable reality.

    Dante put Mohammed in the circle of the Sowers of Discord. Me, I’d assign him to the circle of the Falsifiers.

    And why should Walid Shoebat’s explanation of muruna be unreliable? He did grow up among Arab Muslims, speaking Arabic, after all. Did you? What, pray, *do* you regard as a ‘reliable’ source? Bearing in mind that it is perfectly possible that any *Muslim* source that is primarily aimed at a kuffar readership, rather than an ‘in-house’ text meant for Muslim ears only, may be…full of lies. ….That’s the hell of it. That’s the corner Musllms paint themselves into, by their embrace of deception, especially vis a vis the non-Muslims; once non-Muslims figure out that Muslims are allowed to lie to them to do them down, then …no sensible non-Muslim is going to fully trust any Muslim, ever again.

    The concept of ‘muruna’ was not at all surprising to me, after having read Raymond Ibrahim’s various articles on Islamic deception/s. Ibrahim, having been raised in a Coptic Egyptian household, is fluent in Arabic and has read texts that have not been translated into English, texts meant ‘for Muslim ears only’, so to speak, not for Infidel Westerners.