Robert Spencer in Massachusetts: Banned in Worcester, speaking in Natick tonight

and if they do Robert, that is when you should play the lotto!!
M

I dare say, this is one of the best posts I have read and pretty well near the mark to what is happening around the world with Islam. It is a fascist thing, no doubt about it. Those in power that support Islam and yet claim to be liberals (or leftists as some would have it) are covert fascist playing at being liberal - real liberal do not tolerate the intolerant. Save for a few good people who have no idea what Islam really is about and therefore come to its defence and unknowingly make themselves useful idiots, there is nobody with any authority, including the Catholic Church, that do not know the nature of the beast and it is 'their' fascist beast.

The Catholic Church is particularly sweet on Islam, for it see itself as it used to be not that long ago and insallah how it will be again once these two haters of women, pedophiles, haters of Jews and of deniers human rights join forces. I was born and raised a Roman Catholic, but I have studied the history of the Catholic Church, the stance it has taken in modern times on many issues, especially on birth control, women, gays, child abuse, the real causes of poverty, not to mention their wholehearted support for fascist regimes that killed thousands of people, including Union Leaders and dissident workers fighting for their rights, and I have pronounced it toxic to both man and beast.

"But the Leftist Liberals drank the kool-ade long ago and don't understand that when the fascists get in power, it will be the gays, fenmists,Union leader,adulters and many other to be the first ones beheaded or enslaved."

The important irony is that Bishop McManus is not a "Leftist Liberal" beholden to "gays, feminists" etc. As the Worcester Telegram story which Spencer posted earlier indicated, Bishop McManus also at some point in the recent past disinvited the widow of Sen. Ted Kennedy -- because of her Leftist positions on abortion, homosexuality and Obamacare.

Full details here:

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2013/02/worcester-telegram-catholics-and-muslims-have-no-reason-to-fear-what-mr-spencer-has-to-say-his-is-an.html#comment-929447

Really, the Counter-Jihad has to disabuse itself of this simple-minded view of its Western opposition as "Leftists" and "liberals", when there is ample evidence that the majority of conservatives, centrists -- as well as that oft-ignored sociopolitical class one could call the "Comfortably Apolitical" -- also bend over backwards anxiously to avoid stepping on Muslim toes and to whitewash Islam. The reality thus is far more complicated; and this myopia of ours could have (if it has not already been having) serious consequences in how we deploy our war-of-ideas tactics.

No, as a matter of fact they are not "leftists'. The Catholic Church is a Right-Wing organization that supported all the Fascist regimes in Europe, Mussolini, Hitler, Franco, Salazar and the Croatian Ustashi, and Pinochet, Peron, Allende, etc in South America. The reason it will not allow RS to speak in any of its venue should be obvious to anyone. Islam is a kindred fascist philosophy that they secretly admire and support.

And that is why the Catholic Church is in the forefront for facilitating Muslim immigration to the West, particularly the Somalis, where the Church has deep connections to this country, named after the noble family "Somaglia" and whose tomb and monument is to be found in the Vatican itself.

You are a keen observer to see through their mask of Catholic piety.

"Are Bishop McManus, the diocese and the archdiocese leftists?".

How many practicing Catholics supported and helped put Obama back in power ?

What about high profile " Catholic " politicians, who proudly support things like a " woman's right " to choose, and who still receive communion given by Priests who know their stance ?

Do you think that the Catholic church is immune to that Frankenstein monster of the left, known as political correctness ?

I think that jewdog hit the nail on the head when he wrote " My guess is that the reluctance to host Robert stems partly from an unwillingness to criticize another religion, even when there is widespread persecution taking place".

In this case, it's dhimmitude.

You know, you probably have the most sickeningly dishonest 'handle' on the entire internet, and well as the most blatant habit of lying through your teeth.

Veritas/truth? Hardly, truth turned on its head, would be accurate.

*The Catholic Church is particularly sweet on Islam, for it see itself as it used to be not that long ago and insallah how it will be again once these two haters of women, pedophiles, haters of Jews and of deniers human rights join forces.*

Your selection of the phrase 'insallah' is probably a better guide to your background (muslim) than anything else, even your vicious ignorance. And while your hysterical screed is valid when applied to your beloved islam, it only occasionally hits the mark with RC, a church I do NOT have use for.

*I was born and raised a Roman Catholic,*

No you were not. Your ignorance of RC history and beliefs, blows that lie out of the water (and I concede that not all REAL RC's are familiar with them, but they are not as consistently ignorant and hate filled as you are)

*but I have studied the history of the Catholic Church, the stance it has taken in modern times on many issues, especially on birth control, women, gays, child abuse, the real causes of poverty,*

No you haven't. Your hatred would blind you to any serious effort to do so.

*not to mention their wholehearted support for fascist regimes that killed thousands of people, including Union Leaders and dissident workers fighting for their rights, and I have pronounced it toxic to both man and beast.*

Your pronouncement is as valid as your handle: Not in any way, shape or form. The RC has also fought FOR workers rights etc. You would know that if you had actually examined the issue.

*Veritas replied to comment from darmanad | February 4, 2013 5:27 PM | Reply
No, as a matter of fact they are not "leftists'. The Catholic Church is a Right-Wing organization that supported all the Fascist regimes in Europe, Mussolini, Hitler,*

Amusing the way a troll like yourself comes by, and offered up utter rubbish on a board where the average member already knows that your offerings are utter slop. The pope was a target of murder by the nazis, and opposed them as strongly and bravely as he could. Quit lying about it you pathetic fraud.

*Franco,**

Lets see, one side murders a large number of nuns and priests, and the RC joins the other side..... Gee, I wonder why. You moron.

*Salazar and the Croatian Ustashi, and Pinochet, Peron, Allende, etc in South America.*

More drivel from a loon.

*The reason it will not allow RS to speak in any of its venue should be obvious to anyone. Islam is a kindred fascist philosophy that they secretly admire and support.*

You must really enjoy watching the rabbits and frogs flying overhead in the green sky where you live...

You are less than pitiable.

Robert Spencer might be interested in knowing that a friend of his Peter Kreeft, of Boston College, has also been denied a speaking platform by the Worcester Chancery at the very same men's conference only a few years ago.

Ah, yes; Peter Kreeft. I had a few things to say about him a while back, consequent upon that cordial kaffee-with-cream-klatsch he and Spencer had over two years ago. One wonders what in the world would have bunched McManus's panties about Kreeft; as it certainly can't be Kreeft's blandly mild stance on Islam.

Paul wrote:
"Do you think that the Catholic church is immune to that Frankenstein monster of the left, known as political correctness ?...
In this case, it's dhimmitude."
-----------------
Paul, you imply that the Catholic church is not leftist. You then state while the Catholic church may not be "leftist" it is not immune to the Frankenstein monster of the left, political correctness. As a result thereof the church acts with dhimmitude.
But why, if a conservative institution such as the church can manifest political correctness, is political correctness necessarily a leftist monster? Similarly, if the conservative catholic church can manifest dhimmitude why is dhimmitude a trait only of leftists that (you imply) strikes a conservative on occasion?

This is my point. Many here at JW consider political correctness and dhimmitude leftist monsters and not simply monsters that can infect anyone (or institution) no matter where they may lay on the political spectrum? At JW the word "leftist" is regularly and erroneouly conflated with dhimmitude. If some one acts like a dhimmi, then call him a dhimmi, not a leftist.

Veritas is a truth teller, you're a goddamn liar, , and that's the end of it.

"But why, if a conservative institution such as the church can manifest political correctness, is political correctness necessarily a leftist monster?".

Please. That's like asking me how a healthy person can catch a cold.

"Similarly, if the conservative catholic church can manifest dhimmitude why is dhimmitude a trait only of leftists that (you imply) strikes a conservative on occasion?".

Self imposed dhimmitude is cowardice. And it is not exclusive to the left ( witness the political right's reluctance to even address the Islamic menace, as Spencer has documented ).

"At JW the word "leftist" is regularly and erroneouly conflated with dhimmitude".

Because it is accurate.

"If some one acts like a dhimmi, then call him a dhimmi, not a leftist".

Would it make you feel better if I called the leftists " useful idiots ", or " fellow travelers " ?

The misnamed "Veritas" wrote:

And that is why the Catholic Church is in the forefront for facilitating Muslim immigration to the West, particularly the Somalis, where the Church has deep connections to this country, named after the noble family "Somaglia" and whose tomb and monument is to be found in the Vatican itself.
....................

Ridiculous.

In the Somali language, the name of the country is "Soomaaliya". While the ultimate origins of the word are obscure, the Somali tribespeople much predated the founding of Somalia as a nation.

Italian colonialism in the Horn of Africa was brief—it lasted less than twenty years in the early-mid 20th-century.

Before that, Somaliland was a British colony for a time.

The idea that Somalia was named for an obscure Italian noble family, and that Somalia itself was some sort of crypto-Catholic country is simply laughable.

Your a fool or abject liar if you fail to observe the left jumping in bed with islam over during the last decade. President Obama, former mayor of London Red Ken Livingston, Sen. little DICK Durbin, former Rep. Pete Stark, former Rep. Dennis Kucinich, Rep. Nick Rahall, Rep. Keith Ellison, Sen. Tom Harkin, along with the editorial staff of practically every major daily in the US and London consistently gives cover and support for islamists and their political cronies in the US and Europe (note, this list is not exhaustive, it simply is what I can recall immediately). And, of course, Hollywood and academia don't even try to mask their contempt for the West. The left has always adhered to the belief that my enemies' enemy is my friend. In the not so distant past, they embraced communism, marxism and fascism, and now they have embraced islam. Islam hates the West, and that's really all that matters to the left. Always has, always will.

Oh, and btw, which candidate did American muslims OVERWHELMINGLY vote for in 2008 and 2012? Yeah, I rest my case!

http://www.speroforum.com/a/NOYWQOKLBZ18/73309-American-Muslim-voters-overwhelmingly-support-Obama

Appears you are in the minority in thinking that Veritas is a "truth teller". I, too, find little truth in his comments, so I'm not entirely sure what you find so appealing. I find this posters views rather appalling, myself.

Please read Western Canadian, Gravenimage, and Notsure's comments if you're perhaps curious why I hold this opinion. There's not much more that I would add given their spot on comments; although I suspect that there will be more that other's will add before this thread is done.

Neighbor, don't waste your breath on Veritas.

I'm a God-bless-King-Billy Calvinist, and not a Roman Catholic, but I suspect that Veritas is the sort of person thrown up in droves by our modern North American educational system who thinks a few spats of righteous indignation by some half-educated clown amounts to historical knowledge.

Veritas is probably blissfully unaware that between its founding in 1484 and its dissolution by Napoleon's army in 1804, the Spanish inquisition in Spain itself killed around 4000 people--a figure multiplied many times over in the internecine squabbles of the Spanish progressives during the 1930's (to say nothing of what they did to people who opposed them). He probably doesn't care a fig about what the "liberals in a hurry" wracked up worldwide in the 20th century (roughly 160,000,000--see R. J. Rummel's _Death by Government_).

His solicitude for "women" (apparently excluding people like those bearers of two X chromosones out of whom the likes of us popped), gays, and abortionists shows that he's full of the sexual revolution of the Silly 'Sixties and Sillier 'Seventies.

Yes, John. It's a disgrace what they did to Tommy Robinson of the EDL, a true hero.

You contradict yourself. First you admit that "Self imposed dhimmitude is cowardice. And it is not exclusive to the left." Then you say that it is accurate to conflate (merge, combine, equate) leftist with dhimmitude. Don't you see this contradiction?

Dhimmitude and political correctness (PC) are not traits limited to "leftists" as that word is universally understood. It is folly to use either dhimmitude or PC as the sole criteria to define left vs right. That should be self evident because that's simply not the correct way leftist is defined by the world at large.

When one specializes in a subject it is natural that the concentration of time spent studying and acquiring knowledge on their area of expertise would influence their perspective on matters. In my opinion RS's devotion to the study of Islam has caused him to myopically define left and right solely by reference to dhimmitude. I suspect the reason for this erroneous definition in part may be a reaction to the negative treatment RS constantly gets from the majority of MSM - perceived (erroneously) to be leftist.

RS is fighting an uphill battle because many, if not most, non-Muslims remain uneducated or unwilling to see the abuses inherent in Islamic and jihadist ideology. They are antagonistic to his ideas and to him. It is understandable that RS describe apologists for Islamic abuses, in and out of the MSM, as dhimmis. Nevertheless, it is self-defeating to erroneously define all such entities as leftist solely because of their dhimmitude. He would broaden his audience if he were to rethink this concept in his writing and public speaking.

Well said.

"You contradict yourself. First you admit that "Self imposed dhimmitude is cowardice. And it is not exclusive to the left." Then you say that it is accurate to conflate (merge, combine, equate) leftist with dhimmitude. Don't you see this contradiction?".

There is no contradiction in what I wrote. By and large, it is the left who are unable to grapple with the Islamic menace today due to political correctness. This does not mean that right wing politicians are not above being intimidated into silence. The left wing media will do a number on them, if they dare speak out.

"Dhimmitude and political correctness (PC) are not traits limited to "leftists" as that word is universally understood. It is folly to use either dhimmitude or PC as the sole criteria to define left vs right. That should be self evident because that's simply not the correct way leftist is defined by the world at large".

I didn't use dhimmitude and political correctness to define left vs right. I pointed out that the left actively aids the jihadists in their goals. Furthermore, how is the description " leftist " defined by the world at large ? In my book, they are socialists / communists. Does the world agree with that ?

"I suspect the reason for this erroneous definition in part may be a reaction to the negative treatment RS constantly gets from the majority of MSM - perceived (erroneously) to be leftist".

Yes - and the MSM is a part of the " vast, right wing conspiracy ", too. That is utter rubbish. The left wing media bias has been documented over and over.

"Nevertheless, it is self-defeating to erroneously define all such entities as leftist solely because of their dhimmitude. He would broaden his audience if he were to rethink this concept in his writing and public speaking".

Since when did Spencer limit his criticisms to the left ? The left is often highlighted, because it actively aids the jihadists, as opposed to the political right - who's inaction is targeted.

Hope that clears things up for you.

Sorry, I just don't follow you. By and large. I suspect one of us is confused, dumb, full of shit or some combination thereof.

I suspect that you are correct.

Oh you are so wrong on all your assumptions about me.

Not only am I Roman Catholic, but my ancestors came from folks that fought the Muslims and the Nazis in turn to save Western civilisation.

Anyone can use the word 'insallah' if they have been around Jihadwatch long enough and I have been following this web site for years.

I know that you find my views shocking but they are not based on bias or fickleness. If you remove all your sacred cows and preconceived notions and observe the world objectively, know history (and not the official approved and sanitized version) then you will see the unmistakable patterns.

For the most part I see people that cannot for the life of them, see the woods for the trees. They discuss trifles at lenght while ignoring the big picture and the elephant in th room. And by the way, the word 'Leftist' needs to be defined properly. So therefore do these 'leftists' also support women's and gays' rights, workers rights to form unions, the legal requirement of mandated sick leave and holidays with pay for workers, a livable minimum wage, etc. The answer is NO, most countries are following the Chicago School of Economics model of trickle down economy and laissez faire for corporations, but tight control and austerity for everyone else? There are no leftists, just usueful idiots but more likely a branch of the same cabal in power that are promoting Islam but use the cover of 'leftist'. You know blaming the Left as a cover and scapegoat. The use of the old Hegelian dialectic, with the utlimate aim being the unfettered control of the world and all in it. And Islam will be a useful tool in this regard.

You have a very fanciful opinion of the Roman Church and what it really stands for. It is just the old Roman Empire with a thin veneer of Christianity. That said, calling me a fraud will not change the facts about the Vatican ratlines to help convicted Nazi criminals to escape to South America (where they help establish Fascist regimes down there where they re-established the concentration camps against the local populations, nor the Churches Lateran treaty with Mussolini that guaranteed the wages of ordinary Italians go directly to Vatican coffers (same deal for Germany). You can read your revisionist history till the cows come home, but that will not change the facts one iota. By the way, I have seen photographic evidence of participation in atrocities by Cathoic bishops and higher clergy during WW11 that cannot be disputed, as well as Cardinals etc giving the Nazi salute (and do not tell me the canard that they were afraid for their lives) you can see them seating on equal footing with the Nazi hierarchy and attending banquets and functions.

And the only priest and nuns that were killed by the Nazis were those that were Communist sympathizers or those that actually followed the teachings of Christ as oppossed to the Church.

Somalia is named for a noble Italian family, with ties to the Vatican, that is a fact.

And no, it is a harsh Muslim country, no a crypto Catholic one, but that is better since the Church is oh so simpatico with Islam, like peas in a pod in fact. In time, when enough Muslims are in Europe, you will see the two merge and of course the Vatican will rule the whole thing.

Obama is a right centrists. This does not make him a Leftist. Not only Muslims voted for Obama, but so did Jews and Blacks and even some WASPS.

If he is a Leftist, then why do we still have an economic model based on Right-Wing philosphy, of small government but a big State? Why do Corporations still have more rights than people? Why is it OK to give welfare to multi-billion dollar rich Corporations but not to struggling families? Why did Obama sign into law executive orders, many of which were first created by the previous Republican administration?

You know, it is high time we started to look beyond labels.

How is the MSM not part of the Right wing? I have heard about the Left or liberal media but when I check things out, the dozen or so Media corporations that run the world are all owned by Conservative Right-wingers. How is that possible? And how could a Corporation ever be Left wing?

I think the Media is working the 'good cop' 'bad cop' angle (with Media playing the part of bad cop Leftists) to keep everyone confused and hide the real agenda, as people squabble about minutiae as to who said what to whom, but never delving any deeper into the issues, interspersed with entertainment news that has no impact on our everyday lives except to distract us from the real issues. News, or what passes for news nowadays, is given is short spurts, with already framed arugements and with no background information and the five W's of proper journalism long discarded. This is corporate news. Believe it at your own peril.

"Veritas" wrote:

Somalia is named for a noble Italian family, with ties to the Vatican, that is a fact.
...........................

This is ridiculous. What could you possibly base this on? Documentation, please.

Yes graven; and Botswana was really named after a Belgian Jewish industrialist, Helmut Bottschwein -- that's a fact!

Please do not be so shocked.

Just learn more about this subject and a very good start is the book by ex-Jeuit priest, Peter Da Rosa, "The Vicars of Christ". Father Da Rosa spend 12 years working in the Vatican and had access to their secret archives.

Read it and learn. Father Da Rose hoped to reform the Church when he wrote this book. Good luck find it though.

I note you have failed to provide any source for your claim regarding Somalia; when you have time can you provide any source to Da Rosas time in the Vaticans archive. As far as i can see he was there merely as a seminarian.He bases his book on two 19th century books whose history and interpretation of facts have been discarded today. please don`t make such a fool of yourself and do some basic research

"I note you have failed to provide any source for your claim regarding Somalia; when you have time can you provide any source to Da Rosas time in the Vaticans archive."

I don't know how long you've been reading Jihad Watch comments, but I've been reading probably most of them rather carefully for a good ten years; and their long and winding road is littered with the bones of commenters with rare or unheard-of nicknames intruding to make various anti-Western claims, then being asked for evidence to back them up, then (if they don't linger awhile obfuscating with evasive red herrings, straw men, ad hominems and other pyrotechnics failing to supply the answer) mysteriously vanishing forevermore.

Whenever I have occasion to go foraging in the archives of yesteryear here, I keep bumping into such sundry and myriad Leftist fossils whose stench had long slipped my mind, and I am reminded anew why I despise these curs.

I have been here on and off for four years. I rarely post as most posters have a lot more knowledge of Islam than do i; my speciality is medieval Scottish history and there tends to be little call for that here; but I do know my ww11 and RC church history quite well also, I do very much enjoy your blog Hesperado.

Then if you read Da Rosa's book, you have to read it again and this time try to comprehend it. Of course Da Rosa is not longer a priest, did you think he would remain one after what he uncovered?

And no, he did not discover that only some Popes in the past were bad, but that they all were bad to varying degrees, all were self-serving and came out against all human progress and science and were dead set against democracy. Da Rosa takes each Pope in turn, right up to modern times (the last century) giving an excellent rendering of all the Popes in succession, from St. Peter onwards. I believe that from all the Popes, only Peter the Hermit was given credit for holiness, but he lived in a cage and was killed by starvation by the orders of the Cardinal that next replaced him as Pope.

I am not making this up, so you cannot call me a bigot or biased. It is right there in the Church archives.

For us Catholics, it is a shock when we discover the truth about the Church and having gone through the very thorough 'indoctrination' at a young age, it is extremely difficult to throw away the beliefs implanted on the malleable brain of a child. The Jesuit maxim goes "Give me the boy until the age of seven, and I will give you the man." Nevertheless, some of us manage to do that - the rest unfortunately live in denial mankind excuses for the Church even when stark evidence points otherwise, as happened with the child abuse scandals around the world that have been going on for centuries. It was only because some priests were bad and not that the institution that allowed, nay hid and aided and abetted these crimes itself was bad. As long as humans are so susceptible to doctrine (propaganda) they can never be free from oppression, wherever it comes from.

Graven,

The raving of Veritas makes one think he spent his formative years not so much "in vino" as in methanol.

You are a pathetic,brainwashed muslim.

LemonLime wrote:

Yes graven; and Botswana was really named after a Belgian Jewish industrialist, Helmut Bottschwein -- that's a fact!
..............................

Hahahahahahahahaha! Right, LemonLime—and Zambia is really named after the guy who invented that ice cleaning machine you see at halftime in Hockey games, the Zamboni—that's a fact! sarc/off

And here's "Veritas" with more insane anti-Catholic rantings:

"And no, it is a harsh Muslim country, no (sic) a crypto Catholic one, but that is better since the Church is oh so simpatico with Islam, like peas in a pod in fact. In time, when enough Muslims are in Europe, you will see the two merge and of course the Vatican will rule the whole thing."

Right—because that's just what has happened every other time Muslims have taken over—everyone knows that Syria, Turkey, and Egypt are really Catholic countries...sarc/off

These conspiracy theories are just absurd—we are deep in "the Freemason's secretly rule the world" territory here.

But getting serious again, LemonLime, I believe you are largely correct in your analysis of PC/MC in the West—including its influence on many Jews and Christians: that is, that many of its excesses are originally rooted in actual virtues, and that that is why they have so much currency with otherwise decent Westerners—including devout Jews and Christians.

My hometown of San Francisco considers itself a "sanctuary city", and this idea could not be more charitable at base—the idea that even people unable to secure official asylum status be given effective sanctuary in the city.

I've seen a lot of these cases, and was exposed to even more when I briefly worked for Catholic Charities when I was between art gigs some years ago. I just worked as a receptionist—no access to any of "Veritas'" 'secret vault' material—but I was several times the first point of contact for asylum seekers.

Many of these people, of course, had legitimate cases—and many more were garden-variety illegal immigrants.

But Catholic Charities—and many other proponents of the Sanctuary City movement—have had a disturbing tendency to champion *any* case—including those of criminals and thugs. Many of these people, in fact, present a grave danger to the people of San Francisco.

One infamous case involved a Salvadoran gang member, Edwin Ramos, and his thug buddies who killed an entire family when they mistook the eldest boy—an Italian-American kid—for a Latino gang member.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edwin_Ramos

It turns out that this creep had been arrested numerous times before, but the San Francisco police had been prevented from checking to see whether he was here legally by the "Sanctuary City" laws.

The Bologna family would be alive today if only he had been deported when he started racking up a long rap sheet.

The most appalling thing is that many supporters of the "Sanctuary City" movement were completely unmoved by this case, and rather discounted the threat such "sanctuary seekers" presented to law-abiding San Franciscans—including, of course, their fellow immigrants.

The attitude towards Islam is the Edwin Ramos case writ large—an embrace of Muslims—all Muslims—without any consideration of the terrible threat it presents to the West.

That is what Robert Spencer is facing with this conference in Massachusettes—and, really, with all dhimmis who remain in abject denial over Islam, because they cannot bring themselves to imagine the evil it represents.

I think I should know best whether I am or was a Catholic or not. You just cannot believe that someone who was Roman Catholic can actually think for themselves instead of repeating the creed by rote. So I will just ignore your pro-Catholic apologetics. And to say that Da Rosa's book was discredited is a big fat lie. Not even the Catholic Church had the guts to condemn it.

As to your statement that this book is based on two 19th century works is ridiculous. The book is based on centuries of Vatican archives much older then the 19th century. And why is so hard to believe that a Jesuit working in the Vatican had access to their archives? The place is full of them (Jesuits and archives).
As to the Somaglia Family, what is so hard to believe that they have a country named after them and that they are one of the Papal families like the Orsinis and the Colonnas?

Do you also believe that the "Donation of Constantine" is a genuine bequest made by Emperor Constantine to the Pope or do you believe that it is a forgery? Then if you believe that it is a forgery, how can you continue believe anything else that comes out of the Vatican?

gravenimage,

"The attitude towards Islam is the Edwin Ramos case writ large—an embrace of Muslims—all Muslims—without any consideration of the terrible threat it presents to the West."

Yes, exactly. Though even if that embrace were whittled down by a tiny minimum of concern for the Tiny Minority of Extremists, it would stll amount to the same problem -- though worse, in that it "sells" better to all those people in the West who desperately seek a way out of the logical conclusion they fear more than terrorism -- which they fear not because it is worse than terrorism, not because it would be "rounding up Muslims and putting them in camps" nor "genociding" them -- but merely because it would consider all Muslims to be reasonably suspect. They are so afraid of the imaginary and putatively inevitable Slippery Slope, they can no longer even consider reasonable and more ethical alternatives far short of it; for, anything remotely approximating it in vaguely categorical terms is immediately transformed, in their minds, into another Final Solution.

Thanks also for the interesting details about SF; didn't know all that.

"Veritas" wrote:

As to the Somaglia Family, what is so hard to believe that they have a country named after them and that they are one of the Papal families like the Orsinis and the Colonnas?
...........................

Say—you're right! How could I have forgotten the important nations of Orsinia and Colonnaia—or, for that matter, Borgia or Medicia? Boy, is my face red...sarc/off

Yes, LemonLime—and yet, the perversity of such a view is that people who embrace it are often actively enabling savagery against the most vulnerable, though this is the last thing they consciously intend.

What has always bothered me is not so much naïvité, which is understandable if not often wise—but *willful naïvité*, which refuses to admit harm even when there is mountains of evidence for it.

And that is just exactly what Robert Spencer is facing at this conference in Massachusettes.

By the way, the "Sanctuary Movement" began in the early 1980s, when some people came to the US—San Fransisco in particular—to escape the conflicts in Central America. It has been both a religious and a secular movement.

Even then, those involved were a very mixed bag of people, including genuine asylum seekers in grave danger of their lives if they were forced to return; run-of-the-mill illegal aliens; dangerous, hard-core drug gang members; and even vicious war criminals who found themselves on the wrong side of this or that turn of the conflict.

For instance, the savage Salvadoran drug gang Mara Salvatrucha (MS-13) was able to establish itself in the United States as an unintended by-product of these policies. MS-13 is considered the most dangerous drug gang in American history, even outstripping gangs like the Crips and Bloods in violence. The aforementioned Edwin Ramos was a member.

And, of course, the "Sanctuary Movement" both spread and long outlived its original purpose.

Now it is often applied to *all* would-be immigrants to the US—and those who are least welcome are often the more fervently embraced. Of course, one reason why they are not much welcome is not because they are some pitiable "wretched of the earth" in need of charity and help, but because they represent a terrible threat to us.

Foolishly, the "Sanctuary" mindset often accepts no such distinctions.

Good intentions, road to hell...

This is just the problem;you believe any old hogwash that someone tells you. You read one out of date book and then you see the light. I bet you believe in The Da Vinci code. BTW If you take the trouble to google da Rosa you can find as much refutation as you want. Finally the very idea that a seminarian would have unrestricted access to "SECRET" archives is laughable.
p.s. tell us again about Somalia it is the best tonic available.