#MyJihad in Britain: Four Muslims planned jihad mass murder attack on British soil with guns and homemade bombs

You're a Bahaii, aren't you, mate?

So, it appears that you are slyly hinting that the only way out of the current situation - a massive petrodollar-and-immigration/ hegira-powered Global Jihad - is for everybody in the world to become Bahaii...or else...or else what?

"We need a "New Wineskin of Ideology" for a modern world in order for it to live in peace and harmony?"

And if not, the Jihad *will* get us? (Veiled threat duly noted).

Your claimed 'new wineskin of ideology' would be mohammedism-lite, aka the bahaii cult, wouldn't it?

Sorry. Not gonna happen.

No can do. **Not interested**.

I find your cult leader lacklustre and entirely unattractive, when compared to my risen and glorified Lord, the Jew, Yehoshua of Nazareth.

Your guy's dead and rotten. My guy ain't.

furthermore, 'truthseeker', I don't think that your 'call' to become bahaii - which goes down like a lead balloon with the Christians here, like me - is cutting much ice with the Hindus, Jews, atheists and agnostics who post or lurk here, either.

Give it up, mate.

It ain't gonna work.

PS: And people here really, really *don't* like being threatened, even if it's at one remove, in veiled hints and sly hissings.

Saleem, I actually think the British authorities are awake and alert to the threat. I know it took much longer than it should have taken; but better late than never.

The media is allowed to pour out words on the "Islam is harmless" theme because we have freedom of press. But increasingly fewer ordinary people are swallowing the line. The dhimmi media, no matter how annoying, is performing one useful function. It lulls the terrorists into a sense of false security. They have no idea how many ordinary Brits are by now onto their case.

The police are certainly not misinformed. They know how many Muslims they arrest. They know how many of these are ordinary young men in trouble and how many of them are serious criminals.

My son's English teacher recently asked the class (with reference to their literature text) why, in their opinion, a few Muslims became terrorists. My son shot up his hand before anyone else had time to think and answered, "Because the Qur'an tells them to." The teacher, who had presumably wanted some politically correct reply about "distorting the message," asked, "Are you sure?" My son countered, "It's pretty obvious, isn't it?" The teacher had not read the Qur'an and did not pursue the matter. The interesting point, however, is that my son had a clear field. None of the other 15-year-olds cared to tackle him; they apparently had a sinking suspicion that he was right.

The class later had to give a 5-minute oral presentation. My son chose the topic "The difference between Sunni and Shia Muslims." After explaining the political origin of the split and how this led to different prayer customs and tax laws, he explained the different views on muta and taqiyya, all with a straight face and no comments on how these two customs are intrinsically bad. On my advice, he referenced everything to Bukhari or Muslim. I doubt the teacher had time to check his references, but she acknowledged his extensive use of primary sources and gave him an A.

It is difficult to argue against the facts, whether it is the fact of the early Islamic records or the fact of a terrorist plot in Luton. I believe the word is getting around, and more people than ever before are aware of the truth.

I agree with you that Islam cannot, by its nature, be reformed, and therefore the only solution is for Muslims to leave Islam. But however strongly you believe that your way is the best way, it is dishonest to pretend that it is the only way. If your goal is to make converts to your own view, go ahead, but be honest about your real goal. If your goal is to stop terrorism, there are several effective ways to neutralise the Islam factor.

1. The majority of British ex-Muslims become Atheists. Once they have entrenched themselves in this "rational" approach to life, they never want to return to cruelty and superstition.

2. The next most popular choice is Christianity. This is a harder path, since Christians normally like to go public about their new faith, hence they attract Muslim persecution. But no Christian seriously regrets choosing Christ.

3. The third most popular choice is apparently Buddhism, usually a trendy, Westernised neo-Buddhism. Again, Buddhists are usually happy, open-minded people who don't commit crimes (the only Buddhists in British prisons were converted while inside) and who tread lightly on the earth.

The moral of all this? Only to repeat that the word is getting around, and the best thing we can do is keep on spreading it.

Truthseeker wrote:

I think we came to an agreement in previous posts that we both share in interest in "finding alternatives to jihad". Allowing people the freedom to study the several Faith traditions for themselves and develop their own path to the Creator is a great first step, which I believe Robert would agree with.
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Well, this is true. But you have to realize that many people will decide that their "own path to the creator" leads *through violent Jihad*.

You also have to realize that one of these "Faith traditions" calls for the oppression and slaughter of unbelievers, as well as the killing of any Muslim who dares to study any other those other Faith traditions too closely—in other words, who decides to leave Islam.

That's what makes this lovely sentiment rather tricky—one of these creeds is not playing by the same rules as the others.

More:

Shifting the ideology, really the theology of jihad, now that is the question. My best thought for immediate first steps are just the most practical and obvious, that neither side can "logically afford" an all out religious conflict based on military capabilities...
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What makes you think that logic is a major aspect of Islam? Besides, if Muslims believe they are losing, they will simply call a Hudna that the civilized West will honor, while they rebuild their military capacities. They've done this many times with Israel.

And the fact is that orthodox Islam is experiencing a blood-soaked resurgence throughout Dar-al-Islam—the idea that Muslims are apt to consider a reassessment of violent Jihad at this juncture seems implausible at best.

More:

If we really want a "quick military victory" are we prepared to employ WWII tactics? I doubt if Russia and China would let us do that.
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What *absolute crap*. As though it was the civilized West that is poised to attack Dar-al-Islam in an all-out war, and is only stopped from their unbridled aggression by the undemocratic states of China and Russia. What idiocy—what could you *possibly* base this on, except for Muslim propaganda that says the West is "at war with Islam"?

More:

(But please consider that just 30 years after Mao burnt down China to create cultural purity his ideas (ideology) have essentially been obliterated. My oldest two daughters have been in China for 6 and 2 years. Could this be an alternative way whereby ideologies change based on logic and practicality? That was at the heart of the Truce of Westphalia? I believe I have had a similar type of discussion with Gravenimage [I think I got the handle right. It was definitely one of the regular posters like yourself.])
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I'm afraid I'm not sure which discussion you might have had with me that you are referring to here.

As for the rest, China has *not* become any sort of democracy. It *has* significantly shifted its economy so that the average Chinese person has both more more risk and more opportunity. But it has not liberalized its political control one bit. So—while many average Chinese people have been able to benefit economically from the shift, they actually have no more rights than they did under Mao—any liberalization is on sufferance of the authorities—there are no safeguards or guarantees. Essentially, China has shifted from a Communist economy to a Fascist one.

As appalling as Communist China has been and continues to be despite its increased economic opportunity, it has only been in existence as a political entity for a little over sixty years—it is utterly dwarfed by the almost *1400 year* history of Islam.

And as many millions of Chinese read Mao's "Little Red Book", they are dwarfed by the billions of Muslims who adhere to the horrors of the Qur'an, the Hadith, and the Sira.

Baha'is seem to serve as Muslim apologists—despite the fact that pious Muslims respond to these efforts with oppression and slaughter of Baha'is.

You may pretend that Islam and the civilized West are morally equivalent, but sadly I'm afraid that does not make it so.

Thank you very much for sharing these very detailed accounts of what is happening in Britain and your perceptions of the professionalism of British law enforcement.

I am respectful of the courage of your son in presenting deeply researched information on the Shiites and Sunnis.

As to changing Islam. I agree that the Qur'an's verses and the Hadith do not permit change as is traditionally understood. But the Qur'an also states that God will bring the World together of which there is no doubt, as per the opening of the 3rd and 6th Surahs. Muslims cannot deny this particularly those in England (assuming anyone wants to talk about such topics, which admittedly they may not):

9. "Our Lord! Thou art He that will gather mankind together against a day about which there is no doubt: for Allah never fails in His promise."
(The Qur'an (Yusuf Ali tr), Surah 3)

12. Say: "To whom belongeth all that is in the heavens and on earth?" Say: "To Allah. He hath inscribed for Himself (the rule of) Mercy that He will gather you together for the Day of Judgment, there is no doubt whatever. It is they who have lost their own souls, that will not believe.
(The Qur'an (Yusuf Ali tr), Surah 6)

The Day of Judgment is powerfully woven through the Qur'an, do "traditional understandings become a lot less certain" if the World is dramatically changing? As per Samuel Morris: "What hath God wrought?"

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Also, there is one reference in the Qur'an to Muahammad as the Seal of the Prophets, BUT....., according to the Yusuf Ali translation, eleven references to the sound of a Trumpet. I believe that traditionally the trumpet is associated with a new Message.
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Both of these concepts anticipate there could be a greater chance of change than we might think?

+++++++++++++++++

Can religions change?

How much did people think religion could change in Palestine 2,000 years ago, Protestants and Catholics in the 1500s? I acknowledge this could be a slow process.

Thank you very much for sharing these very detailed accounts of what is happening in Britain and your perceptions of the professionalism of British law enforcement.

I am respectful of the courage of your son in presenting deeply researched information on the Shiites and Sunnis.

As to changing Islam. I agree that the Qur'an's verses and the Hadith do not permit change as is traditionally understood. But the Qur'an also states that God will bring the World together of which there is no doubt, as per the opening of the 3rd and 6th Surahs. Muslims cannot deny this particularly those in England (assuming anyone wants to talk about such topics, which admittedly they may not):

9. "Our Lord! Thou art He that will gather mankind together against a day about which there is no doubt: for Allah never fails in His promise."
(The Qur'an (Yusuf Ali tr), Surah 3)

12. Say: "To whom belongeth all that is in the heavens and on earth?" Say: "To Allah. He hath inscribed for Himself (the rule of) Mercy that He will gather you together for the Day of Judgment, there is no doubt whatever. It is they who have lost their own souls, that will not believe.
(The Qur'an (Yusuf Ali tr), Surah 6)

The Day of Judgment is powerfully woven through the Qur'an, do "traditional understandings become a lot less certain" if the World is dramatically changing? As per Samuel Morris: "What hath God wrought?"

-----
Also, there is one reference in the Qur'an to Muahammad as the Seal of the Prophets, BUT....., according to the Yusuf Ali translation, eleven references to the sound of a Trumpet. I believe that traditionally the trumpet is associated with a new Message.
-----

Both of these concepts anticipate there could be a greater chance of change than we might think?

+++++++++++++++++

Can religions change?

How much did people think religion could change in Palestine 2,000 years ago, Protestants and Catholics in the 1500s? I acknowledge this could be a slow process.

Thank you very much for sharing these very detailed accounts of what is happening in Britain and your perceptions of the professionalism of British law enforcement.

I am respectful of the courage of your son in presenting deeply researched information on the Shiites and Sunnis.

As to changing Islam. I agree that the Qur'an's verses and the Hadith do not permit change as is traditionally understood. But the Qur'an also states that God will bring the World together of which there is no doubt, as per the opening of the 3rd and 6th Surahs. Muslims cannot deny this particularly those in England (assuming anyone wants to talk about such topics, which admittedly they may not):

9. "Our Lord! Thou art He that will gather mankind together against a day about which there is no doubt: for Allah never fails in His promise."
(The Qur'an (Yusuf Ali tr), Surah 3)

12. Say: "To whom belongeth all that is in the heavens and on earth?" Say: "To Allah. He hath inscribed for Himself (the rule of) Mercy that He will gather you together for the Day of Judgment, there is no doubt whatever. It is they who have lost their own souls, that will not believe.
(The Qur'an (Yusuf Ali tr), Surah 6)

The Day of Judgment is powerfully woven through the Qur'an, do "traditional understandings become a lot less certain" if the World is dramatically changing? As per Samuel Morris: "What hath God wrought?"

-----
Also, there is one reference in the Qur'an to Muahammad as the Seal of the Prophets, BUT....., according to the Yusuf Ali translation, eleven references to the sound of a Trumpet. I believe that traditionally the trumpet is associated with a new Message.
-----

Both of these concepts anticipate there could be a greater chance of change than we might think?

+++++++++++++++++

Can religions change?

How much did people think religion could change in Palestine 2,000 years ago, Protestants and Catholics in the 1500s? I acknowledge this could be a slow process.

Thank you very much for sharing these very detailed accounts of what is happening in Britain and your perceptions of the professionalism of British law enforcement.

I am respectful of the courage of your son in presenting deeply researched information on the Shiites and Sunnis.

As to changing Islam. I agree that the Qur'an's verses and the Hadith do not permit change as is traditionally understood. But the Qur'an also states that God will bring the World together of which there is no doubt, as per the opening of the 3rd and 6th Surahs. Muslims cannot deny this particularly those in England (assuming anyone wants to talk about such topics, which admittedly they may not):

9. "Our Lord! Thou art He that will gather mankind together against a day about which there is no doubt: for Allah never fails in His promise."
(The Qur'an (Yusuf Ali tr), Surah 3)

12. Say: "To whom belongeth all that is in the heavens and on earth?" Say: "To Allah. He hath inscribed for Himself (the rule of) Mercy that He will gather you together for the Day of Judgment, there is no doubt whatever. It is they who have lost their own souls, that will not believe.
(The Qur'an (Yusuf Ali tr), Surah 6)

The Day of Judgment is powerfully woven through the Qur'an, do "traditional understandings become a lot less certain" if the World is dramatically changing? As per Samuel Morris: "What hath God wrought?"

-----
Also, there is one reference in the Qur'an to Muahammad as the Seal of the Prophets, BUT....., according to the Yusuf Ali translation, eleven references to the sound of a Trumpet. I believe that traditionally the trumpet is associated with a new Message.
-----

Both of these concepts anticipate there could be a greater chance of change than we might think?

+++++++++++++++++

Can religions change?

How much did people think religion could change in Palestine 2,000 years ago, Protestants and Catholics in the 1500s? I acknowledge this could be a slow process.

Greetings Gravenimage,

There are a number of your points of logic that expand on what I was trying to say and which I would accept.

- That there is a need for a Global Bill of Rights that insures the "Peaceful Investigation and Practice of Religion". That the promotion of hate, violence and war ultimately become what in the US we call felony offenses with varying levels of sanctions. Such Rights are present in the UN Charter but admittedly not recognized, let alone backed up with punishments. The fact that I personally have only written about this topic in this post is indicative that many others may also find this a very new topic for public discourse, but is one that is essential to have. As with the American Revolution it is such discourse that began to change the orientation of thinking?

- I agree that the most dynamic Muslims, particularly the young Muslims, are drawn to the several battles fought in Islamic history. If that was my only frame of reference I would be similarly attracted. But, and this was the main point I was trying to make, they must very quickly face the question and reality of why are the planet's military capabilities aligned the way they are? If God is so powerful and engaged in the living realities of the affairs of the planet, how is it that the West has become so militaristically dominant when "we [they say] are called to conquer the World with the sword"? "Why has the Creator made it virtually impossible for us to fulfill this seeming God given mission?"

Could such questions shift underlying thinking?

Could it be that, while yes many Muslims are advancing violent Jihad, that in percentage terms the number is under 5% and may be closer to 1-2%? Yes this is still a very large number when we multiply by 1.2 Billion, but 30-60% of all Muslims may be holding back, in part because of the above logic? Is this not a much, much bigger number? How do we communicate with them?

- I make mention of a global religious war in hopes that all parties will step back and think very carefully about the full implications of "thinking of resolving our differences through military means". Yes we can certainly have our war, but can we afford to do so?

-I agree the whole planet is in the throes of a titanic struggle of morals, values and beliefs, a struggle that we probably grossly underestimate. Do we engage in this struggle through bombs or consultation as to what is our best sense of reality?

- As to the Baha'i Faith, while yes we acknowledge that Muhammad stood up to the idol worshipers of Mecca in the same way that Moses stood up to Pharaoh, the Bab and Baha'u'llah also stood up to dramatically challenge traditional Muslim thinking. For the last 168 years they and many followers have made the ultimate sacrifices to proclaim that "holy war" should be blotted out from religion, that religion should be the cause of love, peace and harmony, that science and religion should agree, etc.

Most notably, Baha'u'llah wrote these specific claims to the Sultan of Turkey while in the Abu Graib of the Ottoman Empire in the penal colony of Akka, just North of Haifa, Israel. Few people survived that prison more than a few years.

In 1979 at least 20 of Iran's leading Baha'is were sent to their death by Khomeini. Another 10-20 right now languish in Iran's Evin Prison. Baha'i youth are routinely colleges in Iran rather than recant their Faith, and increasingly are forced into the same situation in Egypt.

So no we do not make any apologies for Islam's current state of affairs and we are very much about challenging and transforming the core beliefs of people throughout the Muslim World. In the face of death we have not shirked from this path and we will not do so in the future.