#MyJihad in Pakistan: Jihad-martyrdom suicide bombing murders 45 and injures 149 in attack targeting Shi'ites

Hi Sam, I respectfully disagree with you.

The elimination of Islam by force is our last and worst option. What we need most is to work towards a mass movement of Muslim apostasy from Islam. When it is made clear to Muslims that Muhammad, if he ever existed, was a liar and a profoundly sick human being, many Muslims will choose to leave Islam when it is safe for them to do so.

We ex-Muslims living with Islam's formal and informal death penalty for apostasy know that the cruel cult of Mohammedanism is a fraud.

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Apostasy (ارتداد, irtidād and ridda) i.e. the rejection of faith has been, and still is, a serious offense in Islam. The punishment for apostasy as prescribed by Prophet Muhammad is death. An apostate (مرتد murtad) who hides his apostasy is referred to as a munāfiq (منافق hypocrite).

An Introduction to Apostasy

In Islam, the rejection in part (of any of the pillars, or individual principles of Islam), or discarding the faith as a whole, amounts to apostasy. It is not a quick or easy affair for an apostate or heterodox believer of Islam, as the punishment for apostasy in the Islamic faith is death. Though it may be argued that this is not clear through the Qur'an alone, scholars have found justification for the penalty from within its pages, and there are also numerous Sahih (authentic) hadiths confirming this punishment as attested by Prophet Muhammad. In Sahih Bukhari, we see it as “Allah's Apostle said, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him'” (Vol.9, Bk.84, No.57), and it was also one of only three reasons given by him where killing a Muslim is permitted...

More at:
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Islam_and_Apostasy

Couldn't agree with you more using violence against Muslims will play into the hands of people such as Jabhat Al Nusra and the Taliban who could then say '' See we told you so and Allah told you so that these people want you dead''. Instead of weapons we must use reason and intellect to defeat Islam through debates with Muslims and of course propagation of other religions we can no doubt extinguish Islam I say this as an ex Muslim who was once 100% committed to the implementation of sharia the world over.

Couldn't agree with you more using violence against Muslims will only play into the propaganda hand of people such as Jabhat Al Nusra the Taliban and Hzib ut Tharir who can then say to Muslims ''See we and Allah told you so these people will never be satisfied with you and only want you dead come and join us to defend yourselves''. We can defeat Islam through debates through reason and intellect as these have a far greater impact than violence which will only increase the determination of Muslims I say this as an ex Muslim who was once committed to the implementation of sharia the world over.

Couldn't agree with you more using violence against Muslims will only play into the propaganda hand of people such as Jabhat Al Nusra the Taliban and Hzib ut Tharir who can then say to Muslims ''See we and Allah told you so these people will never be satisfied with you and only want you dead come and join us to defend yourselves''. We can defeat Islam through debates through reason and intellect as these have a far greater impact than violence which will only increase the determination of Muslims I say this as an ex Muslim who was once committed to the implementation of sharia the world over.

Hi Exmuslim,

Yes, and another thing - the population of the world is so large now, and biological and nuclear weaponry so much more plentiful and readily available that it has become obvious that the Muslims MUST abandon Islam if the human race is to survive. The problems with Islam are many and PERMANENT. The problems with the non-Muslim world are also many, but (at least potentially) TEMPORARY. Big distinction there.

I have been very busy lately, but noticed that you asked about my Islamic background the other day. I am now in my early 40's, and first coverted to Islam many years ago when the terrible truth about Islam was not as well known. Then years later I came back to Islam briefly before leaving it permanently and joining the fight to help expose it. While yes it was reckless, foolish and dangerous to have converted to Islam, I am not ashamed of having done it. It is more embarrassing than anything else. But that is all ancient history that doesn't bother me in the slightest. It was a simply a huge mistake that no one should repeat. I am not a religious person but believe in God in my own way these days.

How about you? What is your Islamic background?

All the best to you.

There are two kinds of swords, one made of steel and one made of truth...both can cut deeply...
The basic function of both kinds is to 'cut away the unwanted'...That's what the surgeon does with his scalpel...and that's what the dreaded Islamophobe, does with his, he cuts away the rotted lies with serious infusions of truth, and a few facts thrown in for good measure...When Jesus said he brought a sword, he was not talking about steel...

you are exactly correct. As born shia muslim myself I can testify that your statement is 100% correct. Sunni muslims are persecuted in Iran to the tune of not being allowed to public prayers on Friday.
M

jihadists v jihadist none of them are any f...good.
m

I converted or as Muslims love to say 'reverted' to Islam at age 16 I fully embraced the deen and began praying five times a day plus all the Sunnah prayers I also become highly involved with Street Dawah Australia and a very fanatical member of Hzib Ut Tharir that was until praise be to the real god my eyes opened and I began to understand that Islam is not the ultimate reality to our existence I'm now part of the fight to help expose Islam for what it really as I'm a strong believer in the intellectual struggle I'm also now in the process of converting to Judaism although I respect everyone's choice of religion a God of true love and mercy after all could never condemn people to an eternal hellfire for not believing in him even if they are saint like people while admitting bloodthirsty jihadist into paradise for eternal rewards.

I must respectfully, but forcefully disagree with you here, LemonLime.

Ex-Muslims are some of the best allies we have in this War.

They know the game from the inside and can explain, in plain English EXACTLY how evil Islam is. Moreover, they have excellent credibility with the errant members of our American Tribe, who think Islam is benign – the very people that we must educate before we have any hope of really wining this thing.

Treat every professed ex-Muslim with suspicion – of course. Watch every word that an ex-Muslim says for hint of hidden agendas, sure. But when a self-professed ex-Muslim does a bang-up job of explaining precisely WHY Islam is evil, to the very people we must reach – get the Hell out of the way and let that dog run!

HE’S ON OUR SIDE!

"Ex-Muslims are some of the best allies we have in this War. "

I didn't say they weren't. But when they counsel the wrong policy, they are not sacred cows we cannot criticize.

Saleem Smith and EYESOPENED (more likes EYESWIDESHUT) being prime examples of what I'm talking about:

"The elimination of Islam by force is our last and worst option. What we need most is to work towards a mass movement of Muslim apostasy from Islam."

This starry eyed ridiculous notion could well have disastrous effects. How can ex-Muslims be so blind to the profoundly intractable fanaticism of Muslims, to think that sufficiently widespread apostasy is viable, after 1400 years? After -- just to pick one example out of fucking thousands one could adduce throughout history right into our motherfucking present -- Persian Muslims were given a chance in the 14th century to leave Islam by a benevolent non-Muslim Mogul conqueror, and Persian Muslims voluntarily chose to remain submissive slaves to their doubly totalitarian Islam? How come I, a guy who never was a Muslim and have hardly known any in my life, have a more grimly realistic view than these two supposed ex-Muslims?

No, you can counsel attitudes and policies that endanger your loved ones, but I'm damned if you tell me to do the same about myloved ones.

You are missing a critical point here, LemonLime and that is Islam will never be defeated by violence alone – it can only be defeated by exposing its evil tenets for all to clearly see.

This is a task that SaleemSmith does exceedingly well AND since he is an ex-Muslim he has credibility with some Infidels that you or I will NEVER have.

I have no objection to killing Muslims, when necessary and if needed to “get the attention” of the rest of them. After all, the ultimate “attention getters” in recent history were Fatman and Littleboy. After we had the full attention of the Japanese we imposed a carefully supervised representative government on that nation. Due to the inherent industriousness and respect for authority in Japanese culture, this prescription worked fabulously.

But we will never get to seriously fighting Islam until we convince our fellow Infidels that it is a deadly threat – precisely what ex-Muslims are good at. As to counseling against violence, well as I said, we will do what is necessary – but this will ONLY happen AFTER we convince our fellow Infidels of the threat. Why would you denigrate those who are assisting us in this most critical task?

From what I have read, SaleemSmith seems like the real deal and if he can convince a few Muslims to renounce their faith, more power to him. I have seen nothing in Saleems posts to indicate he is not sincere – and I have been watching. Am I going to depend on this as our only method of attack, of course not. But seriously, you gonna kill 1.5 billion Muslims LemonLime? Why not let guys like Saleem thin out the heard a bit?

Regarding Exmuslim, I am watching. Certainly, his counsel about not killing Muslims because it would “harden the resolve” of the rest of them is suspect – but it is also a true statement. Sort of like bombing Berlin hardened the resolve of the Nazis – true but necessary to achieve the objective and certainly no reason not to bomb them into the Stone Age. If Exmuslim is not sincere, it will become apparent in future posts. As I said, at the moment I a watching.

We need all the help we can get in this War and to the extent that exMuslims can both educate Infidels and convince Muslims to renounce their faith, they are valuable allies and should be welcomed.

This talk of a "solution" to the primary problem (of Islam) was nicely dispatched by Hugh Fitzgerald in one of his essays he published here many moons ago (now reprinted at his new home New English Review: When It Comes To Islam, Please Stop This "Problem" and "Solution" Business. Fitzgerald regularly tried to remind enthusiasts in the Counter-Jihad that the best we can hope for is management of that problem, not a "solution".

Right now the house is on fire. It is only distracting, if not positively counter-productive or even dangerous, to fixate on the dream of eliminating "All Arson" (or even "All Fires") while the burning house needs attending to.

LemonLime wrote:

This starry eyed ridiculous notion could well have disastrous effects. How can ex-Muslims be so blind to the profoundly intractable fanaticism of Muslims, to think that sufficiently widespread apostasy is viable, after 1400 years?

...How come I, a guy who never was a Muslim and have hardly known any in my life, have a more grimly realistic view than these two supposed ex-Muslims?
......................................

The question contains its own answer, LemonLime—and no, I'm not being "inscrutable" here.

Since former Muslims like Saleem Smith, Exmuslim, and miriam rove were *themselves* savvy, brave, and decent enough to leave Islam, they assume that other Muslims can not only do what they did, but are *likely* to do so.

Believe me, I am am all too personally familiar with this mindset.

Since you were never Muslim yourself, you are much more able to dispassionately estimate the likelihood of Muslims apostasizing in any sort of significant numbers—and it ain't good.

That being said, I agree with Davegreybeard that former Muslims are important allies—but also with you, that they themselves are often apt to sentimentally underestimate the threat of Islam.

The horrific story, above, should remind us—should we need reminding—of what Muslims are capable of, even towards their own coreligionists.

Once again, you miss the critical point here.

NO EFFECTIVE COUNTER TO ISLAM WILL OCCUR UNTIL ENOUGH INFIDELS RECOGNIZE AND UNDERSTAND THE THREAT.

It is precisely that "threat education" that ex-Muslims excel at.

You talk of the house being on fire and something must be done – well, JOB ONE is to rouse the sleeping inhabitants and inform them of the danger.

You can talk about deporting Muslims, shutting down Muslim immigration, preventing Muslim countries from acquiring weapons ‘till you’re blue in the face – IT WILL NOT HAPPEN UNTIL ENOUGH INFIDELS UNDERSTAND ISLAM.

You put the cart before the horse, LemonLime, because NOTHING will be done until the truth about Islam is revealed.

It amazes me that you cannot see this.