Robert Spencer: Will Pope Francis Challenge Muslim Persecution of Christians?

PopeFrancis.jpg


In FrontPage this morning I discuss one of the foremost challenges that the new pope will face:

Jorge Bergoglio, Pope Francis, assumes the papal throne at a time when Christians in many countries around the world are more threatened, and are living more precariously, than they have for centuries. Christians face violent persecution on an increasingly frequent basis in Pakistan, Egypt, and Nigeria, and to a lesser degree in Malaysia, Indonesia, Iraq, and elsewhere in the Islamic world. Yet for the most part the Church in recent years has been silent about this persecution, and in the West has pursued “dialogue” with Islamic groups that glosses over the grim and bloody realities that all too many Christians in the Islamic world face. Will Pope Francis end this deceptive and fruitless posturing and raise his voice for his threatened and embattled brethren?

The Catholic Church has adopted an irenic stance toward Islam ever since the Second Vatican Council issued its Dogmatic Constitution on the Church (Lumen Gentium) in 1964. This document asserts that the “plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohammedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind” (16).

The statement that “the plan of salvation also includes” Muslims has led some to assert that the Council Fathers were saying that Muslims and Islam should not be criticized or challenged. This has become such an axiomatic assumption for many Christian clerics that they dare not utter a word to disrupt Muslim-Christian “dialogue” even when Muslims worldwide shed the blood of innocent Christians with increasing impunity.

Also, as Pope Francis’s predecessor, Benedict XVI, noted, Vatican II was not a super-council whose teachings superseded all previous Church teaching; rather, its teachings must be understood in light of Catholic tradition. “The council did not formulate anything new in matters of faith, nor did it wish to replace what was ancient,” he said in October 2012. “Rather, it concerned itself with seeing that the same faith might continue to be lived in the present day, that it might remain a living faith in a world of change.” When it comes to Islam, the consistent focus in earlier statements about Islam is generally not on what Muslims believe but on the hostility of Muslims to Christians and Christianity. In that vein, Pope Benedict XIV, in 1754, reaffirmed an earlier prohibition on Albanian Catholics giving their children “Turkish or Mohammedan names” in baptism by pointing out that not even Protestants or Orthodox were stooping so low: “None of the schismatics and heretics has been rash enough to take a Mohammedan name, and unless your justice abounds more than theirs, you shall not enter the kingdom of God.” Pope Callixtus III, in a somewhat similar spirit, in 1455 vowed to “exalt the true Faith, and to extirpate the diabolical sect of the reprobate and faithless Mahomet in the East.”

Some Catholics will argue that the statements of Benedict XIV and Callixtus III (and other statements like them from other popes) simply reflect a very different age from our own, and moreover that Vatican II’s statements reflect a more mature spirit and a greater amount of the charity toward others that Christians ought to exhibit.

And that may well be so, although it must be noted that even though they are only fifty years old, the statements of Vatican II on Islam reflect the outlook of a vanished age no less than do those of the earlier popes. For in the 1960s, secularism and Westernization were very much the order of the day in many areas of the Islamic world. It was, for example, unusual in Cairo in the 1960s to see a woman wearing a hijab, an Islamic headscarf mandated by Muhammad’s command that when appearing in public a woman should cover everything except her face and hands. Today, on the other hand, one would be surprised on the streets of the same city to see a woman who is not so attired.

The hijabs in Cairo are but one visible sign of a revolution—or, more properly, a revival—that has swept the Islamic world. Islamic values have been revived, including not only rigor in dress codes but also hostility toward Western ideas and principles. The “Arab Spring” uprisings that began late in 2010 have led to a reassertion of the political aspects of Islam, as opposed to Western political models, all across the Middle East. Western ideas of democracy and pluralism that were fashionable in elite circles all over the Islamic world in the first half of the twentieth century have fallen into disrepute.

In other words, the Islamic world that the Fathers of Vatican II had in mind is rapidly disappearing. The tone of these statements must be evaluated within the context of their times. For the documents of Vatican II are no less a product of their age than the statements of Benedict XIV and Callixtus III are a product of theirs. Just as the time of crusading knights has vanished, so has the time of a dominant secular West striding confidently into what it terms the “modern” age.

There is more.

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At what point in the last 50 years did the resurgence of fundamental Islam began or was it a myriad of incidences?

Was it fired up by the Iranians who took over the US Embassy in 79' after the installation the Ayatollah Khomeini from exile in Paris?

Was it born out of the 7 year war between Iran and Iraq?

Was it from the war with Russia and the Afghans Northern alliance?

Al qaeda and the Taliban along with OBL?

Over the last 30 years Islamic terrorist organizations have surfaced all over the planet from the Milf in the Philippines to Boko Harem In Nigeria, from Hamas to Hezbollah.

Why the insurgence of Jihad against infidel over the past 30 or 40 years?

Was there one incident that encourage it or was it always there?

"Will Pope Francis Challenge Muslim Persecution of Christians?"

I don't know he looks so timid and shy but maybe there's a tiger in his tank.

What sparked this? Good question.

#1 was the the export of the Saudi Arabian brand of Islam...wahhabism..throughout the world.
How? Money! Post the discovery of oil in Saudi Arabia, billions (trillions) of dollars have been invested by the Saudis in the export and marketing of their brand of Islam.
Follow the money. Hundreds of universities have received huge subsidies to create Islamic chairs. Many students/journalists/authors have been influenced. Hundreds of mosques have been subsidized by the Saudis.
When the time was ripe, Muslims began to emmigrate into the West and then they implemented their command to infuse fear. If we are not on-guard, we will have a form of Sharia within a generation. In 2 or 3 generations, I grieve to think what North America will be.
The sooner we stop our reliance on mid-east oil, the sooner we can right the ship.
This would make a great PhD thesis topic for some student (s).

Jorge Bergoglio, Pope Francis, assumes the papal throne at a time when Christians in many countries around the world are more threatened, and are living more precariously, than they have for centuries. Christians face violent persecution on an increasingly frequent basis in Pakistan, Egypt, and Nigeria, and to a lesser degree in Malaysia, Indonesia, Iraq, and elsewhere in the Islamic world. Yet for the most part the Church in recent years has been silent about this persecution, and in the West has pursued “dialogue” with Islamic groups that glosses over the grim and bloody realities that all too many Christians in the Islamic world face. Will Pope Francis end this deceptive and fruitless posturing and raise his voice for his threatened and embattled brethren?
..........................................

God, I hope so. But given the rage of Muslims over his predecessor's single reference to the brutality of Islam and his subsequent shameful backpedaling over the issue, I very much doubt it.


JKaramazov | March 14, 2013 1:29 PM

To my mind, this is the central question of our time:
"What is the Catholic Church's definitive statement on the nature of Islam?"

Pope Francis has a formidable task ahead of him: How to wake Catholics up to the fact that, for all intents and purposes, we have indeed returned to those bygone eras referred to in Robert's cogent essay. Islam is clearly and undeniably on the march and has been [again] since at least the mid-1970's. And it is gathering momentum at a pace few seem cognizant of, present company notwithstanding.

I personally have experienced Catholic naivete and ignorance concerning the modern jihad threat we all face today. Several year ago, I was formally reprimanded in writing by my [Catholic diocesan] administrator and warned sternly that I was never again "to make general negative comments about Islam or Muslims". I was also at that time verbally reminded that [according to this administrator ] Islam "is one of the three Abrahamic faiths...yada yada" and that I should follow the Pope's example [JPII] and not be so critical of Islam. I left that meeting scratching my head, asking what she or the Church sees in Islam today that is worth defending. As so very many books and articles today readily demonstrate, Islam has precious little in common with Christianity in its scripture, its theology, its morality, or the personal example of its founder. Everything I've read personally gives me to believe that Islam is perhaps the "spirit of Anti-Christ" referred to in the first letter of St. John the evangelist.

But not to digress. Just spend a quick twenty to thirty minutes a day on JihadWatch and/or The Religion of Peacedotcom and it will shortly become very clear to any fair-minded individual that Islam is already a MAJOR problem in the world today and for Christians in particular.

And this is what, for the life of me, I cannot understand: Why is the Catholic Church SO SILENT about the Muslim persecution [read discrimination, kidnapping and killing] of Christians all over the world? For God's sake [pardon me] SAY SOMETHING! Is that not the least we can all do? For God's sake [pardon me again] OPEN YOUR MOUTH and condemn the evil that is visited upon so many millions of fellow Christians all over the world. Or at least do not actively PREVENT informed Catholics like Robert Spencer from speaking the truth about Islam, as so predictably happened in the Worcester incident.

I'll stop. As William Kilpatrick said so well in his recent article "Wise As Serpents", this whole subject can be a source of scandal for Catholics. And I'm right there. It does scandalize me that the true Church is so inexplicably mute before this most pressing question of our time. But I do not wish to be a source of scandal for those reading this. I would just like to say that I too feel that the Church should, SOONER rather than later, give its definitive statement on the nature of Islam, so as to lead the Christian faithful and to protect the flock. Needless to say, I welcome any and all comments and any light which might be shed.

Will Pope Francis Challenge Muslim Persecution of Christians?

No, he won't. And here's why...
Francis, like his homeland of Argentina, is a total disaster.

I've seen tougher looking boy scout leaders ...

Salah, Ann Barnhardt wrote: "He hates and despises the Tridentine Mass, which is to say that he hates the Mass - let's not mince words, and is a rabid persecutor of anyone in Argentina who shows ANY signs of tradition...."

I am not sure this first point addresses R. Spencer's question, "Will Pope Francis Challenge Muslim Persecution of Christians?"

I have admired Ann's courage in the past though I am not sure where she stands on Israel. Do you know? What she seems to be saying here is this. If the pope does not believe Catholics should pray for the conversion of the perfidious Jews, then he will not be a good pope. The question is, will he speak out against murderous persecution of Christians in the Muslim world. I cannot see how his stance on the Tridentine Mass answers that question.

For me, a good indication where he will stand (or not stand) on Islamic persecution of Christians will become evident in the manner he comes down on the Muslim (world) war against Israel. If like his past two predecessors, he supports the Palestinian cause - if he supports a Muslim-enemy state in the land God gave to Jacob and his descendants - I do not expect he will be a forceful defender of Christian communities in the Muslim world.

You wrote: "For God's sake [pardon me again] OPEN YOUR MOUTH and condemn the evil that is visited upon so many millions of fellow Christians all over the world. Or at least do not actively PREVENT informed Catholics like Robert Spencer from speaking the truth about Islam, as so predictably happened in the Worcester incident...."

I know on this point Mr. Spencer disagrees with me because I've got his book, "Religion of Peace: Why Christianity is and Islam Isn't."

There is a precedent for this silence at the highest levels of the church in spite of heroic men and women at the not so high levels of the church.

OK thanks. That piece looks good. I've got a book on Pope John XXIII, Angelo Giuseppe Roncalli. I started reading it but sadly I've been negligent in finishing it. Roncalli's pontificate was a brief one I think though he was known for good relations with the Jews. If it is accurate, Wikipedia says:

"One of the first acts of Pope John was to eliminate the description of the Jews as "perfidious" in the Good Friday liturgy. He also made a confession for the Church of the sin of anti-semitism through the centuries..."

Ann seems to want to bring this traditionalist liturgy back. I am no expert on the popes. It seems to me some of the "traditionalists" like Society of St. Pius X and more extreme traditionalists like Mel Gibson and his father Hutton have issues with Israel and / or the Jews. Maybe you will correct my wrong impression.

Wow, look at this:

Ahead of U.S. President Barack Obama's visit to Jerusalem on March 20-21, 2013, rumors were spread that he was planning to visit the Western Wall and Al-Aqsa mosque. Though these rumors received no confirmation from American or Israeli sources, Palestinian officials and clerics – from the PA, Hamas and Islamic Jihad, and even from the Islamic Movement in Israel – warned Obama not to visit the Western Wall or Al-Aqsa Mosque with Israeli escort, on the grounds that this would constitute support for Israel's occupation of Jerusalem and a perpetuation of this occupation.

The officials stressed that Jerusalem is an occupied Palestinian Arab city, and that Al-Aqsa mosque and the Western Wall, which they call the Wall of Al-Buraq, are Islamic, belonging to the Muslims alone, the Jews having no rights to them whatsoever. The officials argued that, if Obama wishes to visit these places, the visit must take place under the sponsorship and responsibility of the Islamic Waqf in Jerusalem, and must affirm Jerusalem's status as an occupied city and the Palestinian Arab sovereignty over Jerusalem and Al-Aqsa. Otherwise, there would be "grave consequences."

Especially harsh was the response of Hamas, which warned that, if Obama visited Al-Aqsa with an Israeli escort, the movement would call upon the Palestinian Arabs to launch a battle against the U.S. and its interests in the region.....

"An Islamic Jihad official urged the Palestinian Arabs to bar Obama from entering the mosque and to pelt him and his entourage with shoes and rotten eggs....

http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/7080.htm

Hey. I read and enjoyed the article you linked to. Btw, FYI: good old "Snoop Dogg" has recently changed his name to "Snoop Lion", if you can even imagine. Cheers. JK

Based on the Popes early remarks and also suggested by the life he has lead, first as priest(Jesuit), then as bishop and later as cardinal, you and surmise (guess) the following:
He will re-focus the church on it's primarily role, to evangelize and to invigorate Catholics around the world to conform closer to the basics, Christ.

Playing politics will be secondary and only as it relates to how it affects morally and doctrinally the lives of individuals.
It is inconceivable that within the cloistered walls of the Vatican, the incessant screams of pain and the river of blood from Christians and others around the world will be ignored.
I’m certain that the Vatican will continue to use great restraint and diplomacy with words so as not to engorge the islam beast with it’s favorite morsels of evil and hatred on which it feasts

For those of us who can appreciate the magnitude of danger islam and it's jihad portend, it should be very apparent that it would be foolish not to appreciate the alliance and favor to our cause of more than 1.3 TRILLION Catholics.
Let’s us not forget that as a political and religious entity the catholic church has already saved Europe at least once from ilsamic invasion.

I respect and admire Ann Barnhardt to infinitum.
On her take on Pope Fraqncis, I think she is jumping the gun a bit. No question that the church has failed miserably in insuring it does not become a vehicle for sodomites and child molesters to use. I also agree that islam is the big, big challenge. But don't forget, the Vatican has of yet not acquire any f16's or surface to surface missiles. As for us individuals, yes it;'s time to take our sword, the metallic kind.

No F16s you are right. But millions of Christians, both Catholic and non-Catholic listen closely to every word from a pope, especially a charismatic or powerful one who knows God's word. The pope is held to be God's viceroy (representative) on the earth; I guess sort of like the ancient prophets who spoke out and condemned evil. If a strong pope would condemn outrages on the part of Islam, it could do much good in my opinion. Initially there might be some resistance on the part of Islam. At present, Christendom is stronger than Islam. Much stronger. That might not continue to be the case if Godly men remain silent.

I have it in good authority that the pope as well as all the cardinals are fully aware of the persecutions of christians in moslem lands
During the conclave the Sudanese and Egyptian cardinals;(
NAGUIB Antonios, patriarch em. Alexandria of the
Copts, Egypt, and ZUBEIR WAKO Gabriel, abp. Khartoum, Sudan), brought the matter up in conclave and the two Nigerian Cardinals and the Lebanese Cardinal also voiced there concern in stern and frank terms to the other cardinals present during the conclave just a few days ago.

At least there are now discussions about it, it remains to see if the Church will understand that dialogue with the mohamedans is an exercise in futility

The Pope has a lot of work to do.

Some should keep a running toll of every Christian killed by jihad from the first day of Pope Francis' papacy.

That will tell him the problem.

I suggest that, as a loyal son of the church, Mr Spencer should parcel up and send to the new Pope a nice present - namely, shiny new freshly-autographed copies of every book that he (Spencer) has ever written; and perhaps Rev Dr Mark Durie, the Anglican scholar, can do the same with *his* three books, as a friendly gesture from a member of the Anglican Communion. (I am assuming that the new Pope can read English; if not, surely he will have access to people who can translate at least some of this material into Spanish for him, for ease and speed of reading).

I do not think it would be that difficult for someone to do a quick translation of Durie's 'Revelation? Do We Worship the Same God? Jesus, God, Holy Spirit in Christianity and Islam' into Spanish; and has not at least one of Spencer's books already been thus translated, as well?

Aside: translating *all* Spencer's work on Islam, and Durie's, into both French (for the benefit of Christians and other non-Muslims in Francophone Africa, particularly) and into Spanish, for the benefit of the general population in Central and Southern America, ought to be happening, ASAP.

Does anyone know whether Bat Yeor's 'Islam and Dhimmitude' has been presented in Spanish?

"At what point in the last 50 years did the resurgence of fundamental Islam began or was it a myriad of incidences? "

Given Islamic culture, history and psychology, it is reasonable to suppose that the "secularism" of Muslim behaviors in the 1950s and decades before that to which Spencer alludes (Cairenes walking the streets unhijabbed, and the Egyptian Idol Spencer previously lauded, Umm Kulthum -- though as a commenter noted at the time, one of her "pop" songs was titled and had lyrics about "slaughtering the Jews") was only skin deep, and mostly reflected the heavy hand of Western Colonialism (in the decades prior to the foolish dismantling of it after WW2) and its post-Colonialist hangovers -- with a good deal of that heavy hand & hangover in the form of various tin-pot Muslim dictators du jour uppropped (intelligently) by the West (increasingly an America astoundingly flexing her muscles post-WW2).

So, the question beneath Mackie's question I quoted above is answered. Mackie's overt question can be variously pinpointed -- as he conjectures, with the Iranian revolution; etc. The deeper more important question is, if militantly expansionistic Islam seems relatively recent (from the 1970s forward), does that mean that Muslims were really less militantly expansionistic during the 279 years from 1700 to 1979? Or was it rather more like their societies had withdrawn after their medieval heydays (their defeat in 1683 at the siege of Vienna being their spectacular downfall -- at the time), to hunker down into a sullen coma like a wounded exhausted spider sulking in its hole spinning its webs only as a seeming shroud around its increasingly retrograde, regressive, irrelevant existence?

And does that mean that during those 279 years Muslims really didn't want to do jihad against the world?

Of course not: Our rule of thumb about Muslims we should never, ever abandon:

When Muslims are not doing violent jihad, it is only because they happen to perceive themselves too weak or otherwise unable to do so overtly, and are either

a) hunkering down to await a more propitious day for the resumption of their perennially psychotic fanatical goal dictated by their sadomasochistic gangleader, Muhammad; or

b) they are pretending to be peaceful and assimilable in order to infiltrate at a time when they perceive various chances to exploit various weaknesses in an enemy temporarily stronger.

From 1700 to 1979, Muslims were mostly doing (a); from 1979 to our hot present, they have been doing, and continue to do, (b) -- massively and intricately enabled by the stupidity of millions of Westerners, "Elites" as well as Ordinary People, and including many gradations in between those two quaintly anachronistic denominators.

So if we defeat Saudi Arabia, the problem of Islam will vanish!

Yeah, right.

Too bad Abe Foxman and his ADL are not as kindly disposed toward Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer who are solid friends of Israel and the Jews. Or is it just Pamela Geller ADL does not like?

Press Release

ADL Congratulates New Pope Francis

"We congratulate the new Pope and wish him well in his important new responsibility. We believe that the election of Francis I is a significant moment in the history of the Church. We look forward to working with him to continue to foster Catholic-Jewish relations as we have with his predecessors. There is much in his record that reassures us about the future.

Under his leadership in Buenos Aires, Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio made important strides in maintaining positive Catholic-Jewish relations following the transformational papacies of Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI - pontiffs who launched historic reconciliation between the Catholic Church and the Jewish people.

Cardinal Bergoglio maintained a close relationship with the Jewish community in Argentina. He has celebrated various Jewish holidays with the Argentinian Jewish community, including Chanukah where he lit a candle on the menorah, attended a Buenos Aires synagogue for Slichot, a pre-Rosh Hashana service, the Jewish New Year, as well as a commemoration of Kristallnacht, the wave of violent Nazi attacks against Jews before World War II....

http://www.adl.org/press-center/press-releases/interfaith/adl-congratulates-new-pope-francis.html#.UUEMoKXDnvg

"Pope Callixtus III, in a somewhat similar spirit, in 1455 vowed to 'exalt the true Faith, and to extirpate the diabolical sect of the reprobate and faithless Mahomet in the East.'"

Wow that pope wasn't afraid to speak the TRUTH about islam and company!

...too bad he didn't succeed >:(

Persons whom I would like to see receiving invitations to a private audience at the Vatican, sometime within the next six months:

Magdi Cristiano Allam (he could present the Pope with his two books, 'Viva Israele' and 'Europa Libera Cristiana'.

Robert Spencer, Greek Melkite Catholic.

Geert Wilders, 'Catholic Agnostic', of the Netherlands.

Bat Yeor.

Hans Jansen, of the Netherlands. Jansen taught Mark Durie.

http://www.newenglishreview.org/blog_direct_link.cfm/blog_id/20827

Sadly, the wonderful Susanne Zeller-Hirzel, who was a member of the White Rose Society in Nazi Germany in her youth, and then in her 80s - after reading Mark Gabriel's books on Islam - became a member of the Resistance against Jihad in Europe, cannot be added to this list: she died on December 4 2012, aged in her early 90s.

http://www.newenglishreview.org/blog_direct_link.cfm/blog_id/23329

Wednesday, 30 September 2009
The White Rose: An Interview with Mrs. Susanne Zeller- Hirzel


Mark Gabriel.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Ibn Warraq (he who wrote 'Defending the West').

(This is by no means an exhaustive list; perhaps others in this forum might like to say what *their* 'wish list' might be._

I encourage *all* Catholic Jihadwatch posters and lurkers to communicate their concerns *directly* to their new Pope.

Send the man a letter of congratulation...and express your hopes that he will speak up *loud and clear* on behalf of his persecuted and suffering flock (remind him about Lina Joy, and Asia Bibi, and Rimsha Masih, all of whom are Catholics). And in every letter, put in a plug for, particularly, Spencer's books 'Not Peace But a Sword' and 'Why Christianity is a Religion of Peace and Islam Isn't'.

Won't do any harm and might do some good.

I personally have experienced Catholic naivete and ignorance concerning the modern jihad threat we all face today. Several year ago, I was formally reprimanded in writing by my [Catholic diocesan] administrator and warned sternly that I was never again "to make general negative comments about Islam or Muslims".

Back in 2005, I had a correspondence with Stephen Hand, a Catholic blogger. He wrote an article which implied that Muslims share the same belief in God as do Catholics. So I wrote him:

Your article raises the question in my mind, is it a standard Catholic belief that religions which directly and aggressively repudiate the divinity of Jesus are to be embraced as believers in the same God?

On the walls of the Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem built after a violent military conquest of a land populated by Christians and Jews in the 7th century a.d. -- probably the second most holy mosque outside of Mecca for all Muslims (not just
"Taliban" Muslims) -- are the following inscriptions:

"So believe only in God and of his messenger, but
do not say "Three" (Trinity) and it will be
better for you. God is only one God. Far be it
from His glory that he should have a son."

"O God; pray upon Thy messenger "the servant
Jesus the son of Mary... That is Jesus, son of
Mary - a statement concerning which YOU are in
doubt. It is not for God to take for Himself any
offspring."

"Praise be God who has not taken unto himself a
son and who has no partner in sovereignty..."

Stephen Hand replied to me:

Muslims are certainly not believers. However, we do not judge;

Romans 2 says, those who do not have the law of God (His teachings) may by obeying their consciences in upholding the law show that same law of God in their hearts which either "accuses or excuses them".

Rom 2:13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)

So we do not judge what God alone can judge.

Px,
Steve

Illustrious, brave and brilliant Catholics of former ages had no problem "judging" -- yea, condemning -- Mohammedans. Shame on Catholic Stephen Hand and his Catholic friends for their pliantly doughy and grievously reckless (but oh so self-righteous) misinterpretation of Christ's love in this regard.

Who is Stephen Hand? He's a prolific Catholic writer and blogger (contributing to many Catholic blogs, such as "Catholicism.org"). When he left the editorship of TCR News in 2007 (apparently partially caused by some cryptically designated "bad people" who took over), a fellow Catholic, Michael J. Iafrate on the Catholic blog Pax Nova wrote:

"I know we were definitely in the same ballpark, sharing a devotion to Dorothy Day and the Catholic Worker movement, and our hearts were similarly moved to passionately denounce the culture of death’s increasing devotion to modern warfare." [that "culture of death" of course referring to the West, not -- Heaven forbid -- Islam]

And these two different blogs by ordinary lay Catholics "Blog by the Sea" and The Western Confucian" (don't be confused by that name -- it's just a typical PC MC Catholic) notify their readers of Stephen Hand's (then) new blog, and indicate no criticism of his Islamophiliac tendencies; indeed they actually seem to like him.

And yet Stephen Hand seems quite the conservative Catholic in his distaste for the ultra-liberal Catholic theologian Hans Kung:

This de facto pluralism which can embrace even a Hans Kung - whose heresies go beyond Luther and the papacy to the Person of Christ Himself - cannot, it is very clear to me, be reconciled with Tradition and thus a mysterious rupture has occured; and so fears seem to have been confirmed. I still hope Benedict will yet act against Kung and his clones, but that hope grows dim.

So according to Stephen Hand, Hans Kung is out of bounds; but Muslims are just peachy keen. That's the asymptotic disease -- (which I define as the peculiar strain of PC MC in otherwise conservative and/or counter-jihad individuals) -- in a nutshell. And many other Catholics out there in the world wide network of the Web seem to have no problem with him on this. They are much too concerned with more important matters, while Muslims oppress, abuse and slaughter their brothers and sisters throughout the Third World.

Robert Spencer: Will Pope Francis Challenge Muslim Persecution of Christians?

Answer: No!

I observe we have a typical Jew-hating Mohammedan - who has never appeared on this forum before - quoting the self-hating rag 'ha-aretz' and talking absolute rubbish about supposed 'zionist persecution' of Christians and Muslims.

Let it be known loud and clear to the likes of jawahar, above, that there are many Christians - as also many secular, and many Indians - who stand unconditionally with Israel in her self-defence against genocidal Jihad.

And jawahar can take his vicious nonsense somewhere else, because I know very well that the Muslims hate the Christians - including Arab Christians - as well as the Jews, and will attack either or both as opportunity presents (though they, the muslims, will never miss a chance to set Jew against Christian and Christian against Jew, and will pretend to side with one against the other, from time to time, in order to achieve this). Dhimmi Christians within Israel who obediently parrot the Muslim line - slandering the Jews to please their Muslim masters - and carry water for the Jihad are FOOLS. Does Jawahar think I and others here have never heard of the slogan, 'First the Saturday people, then the Sunday people'??

Christians are far safer within Israel than in any part of the lands controlled by Islam. If I were a Christian living in Israel I would pray every single day for the safety and success of every soldier within the IDF.

Wow another lost cause defending an evil cause: islam

Hi wildjew, you wrote:
"It seems to me some of the "traditionalists" ... have issues with Israel and / or the Jews."

We're not talking about Pius, Gibson or Francis. We're talking about Jesus. He was a JEW.
And that, my friend, should be enough to correct your impression.

I'm afraid to say it but Pope Francis will be just as soft, complaisant and submissive towards the Islamic/Muslim barbarism, brutality, violence and persecution of our Eastern brethren even worse than John Paul II

Muslim will be very pleased to have a dhimmicized Kaffir at the Vatican.

I have Muslims telling me that they hope to see a pope just like JPII and they HATED Benedict XVI....

Here's a Youtube video about what the Popes(and anti-popes) said about the Satanic cult of Islam.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ypf3nDOB34

Pope Calixtus III (1378-1455): "I vow...to exalt the true Faith, and to extirpate the diabolical sect of the reprobate and faithless Mahomet [Islam] in the East"

As far back as the 50's, the Catholic church did know and understand the threat of Islam. At the Christian Brothers school I attended then we were told that the greatest threat we would see in our lives would come from Islam. The subject come up following a discussion on the crushing of Germany just 5-years previously.

Thursday, March 14, 2013
Pope Francis 'a friend of the Islamic community'

Argentine Muslim, House for the Diffusion of Islam head, Sheij Mohsen Ali
Argentine Muslims have welcomed the election of Argentine cardinal Jorge Mario Bergoglio as the head of the Roman Cathoilic Churhc. In an interview with Buenosairesherald.com, Sheij Mohsen Ali and CIRA Secretary General Dr.Sumer Noufouri praised Pope Francis’s “pro-dialogue” nature.

“He always showed himself as a friend of the Islamic community. He visited the At-Tauhid Mosque (located) in the neighborhood of Floresta and the Arab-Argentine Ali Ibn Abi Talib School strengthening our relations”, the Director of the House for the Diffusion of Islam Sheik Mohsen Ali said and described a personal anecdote with the man that has now become “the Pope of the end of the world.”

http://www.buenosairesherald.com/article/126369/pope-francis-a-friend-of-the-islamic-community

It might be wise to take Muslim pronouncements - and Muslim anecdotes, especially name-dropping Muslim anecdotes about someone who has now attained a high position and can confer, so to speak, reflected glory - with a pinch of salt.

Tommo

that's really interesting.

Maybe they'd been reading Fr J L Menezes.

Here's what that redoubtable missionary priest, who had had plenty of opportunity to observe the behaviour of Muslims in India and perhaps other places, over many many years, had to say:

Around p. 140 in THE LIFE AND RELIGION OF MOHAMMAD. By J. L. Menezes. (Roman Catholic Books, P.O. Box 2286, Fort Collins, Colo. 80522, 1912/2005 reprint),

“The Mahommedan religion on the whole with all its dogmatic and moral principles, and with all its positive and negative laws has been a curse to human society.

"Mahommed pretended to confer by his religion a boon, at least on his own countrymen, by giving them in place of gross idolatry a purer faith, and surer moral habits,

"but in this attempt he has miserably failed and has hopelessly fallen into the very sin he so vehemently assailed.

"Mahommedanism has penetrated into barbarous countries and has forced its inhabitants to accept it as their saving religion, but in doing so it has not succeeded in elevating man’s condition to a higher level – or at least to a level any higher than that of Arabia in Mohammed’s time.

"The Partial and specious reforms which it may have attempted to effect, are vitiated by the fact that they tend to exclude the higher and nobler virtues;

"and as their inner life of families, the whole, the whole tone of society and the intellectual and moral standard of a people depend on the principles of the ruling religion,

"it is hopeless to expect that Islam will ever cease to be what it hitherto proved, the most formidable obstacle to the dawn of a progressive and enlightened civilization.

"How can it be otherwise?

**No permanent house can be built on a foundation of sand; what permanent civilization and progress then can be expected from a people professing a religion founded on fatalism, polygamy and slavery?** {my emphasis - dda}

"Their [that is, the Muslims'] blind belief in inevitable fate, and their antagonism to liberty of thought and action have rendered reform next to impossible; and the professors of this religion seem never to realize their obligation and duty towards the people under their rule, of spreading true civilization, good government and the cultivation of the peaceful arts.

"The natural consequence of this ignorance and blindness has been despotism, mal-administration, bigoted persecution and oppression of their co-religionists.

I"n the countries of the Mahommedan world

"anarchy, rapine, revenge, strife and murder are the order of the day,

"thieving, lying, usury and oppression are looked upon more as virtues than vices;

"unrestrained licentiousness is carried to unimaginable excess.

{And note: this scathing summary applies just as broadly today, as it did back then in 1912 - think of Syria, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Libya, Bangladesh, Yemen, Somalia..- dda}.

"Dirt and filth are things that never come seriously before the attention of Mahommedans;
they seem indeed to prefer living in the most dirty and filthy environment.

"They are generally illiterate and at the same time self-conceited
and their vainglory in their religion and the nothingness of their own acquirements makes them scorn every other religion;
"the meager education which they generally receive when young, makes them believe that there is not much left for them to learn in the world.

"In short, Mahommedan countries are the chosen homes of
ignorance, bigotry, tyranny and brutal vice,
and rendezvous for a filthy, unprincipled people, as well as for brigands, felons and freebooters.

"While all other countries not influenced by Islam have made rapid progress in every direction and enjoy the blessings and peace of true civilization,

"Mahommedan countries have remained absolutely opposed to change and reform;

"nay, rapacity and extortion have reduced them to a most deplorable state.
"Such is the boon conferred on human society by the Mahommedan religion, and what a benefactor Mahommed has been to his country! [can't you just *hear* the /SARC/ dripping off Fr Menezes/ pen! - dda]

"Who was pleased to give to his country, nay, to the whole world, a religion which, claiming a divine origin as the final and irrevocable standard of morality, has kept its followers sunk in ignorance and barbarism, and has become an insuperable barrier to the regeneration, civilization and progress of the Eastern world.” END QUOTE

Now THAT is telling it like it is...


For the Holy Father and See there are always diplomatic considerations that tend to mute overt denunciation of persecution( whether by anti-clerical,Communist , National Socialist or Islamic regimes) but it is to be hoped that Francis will push forward the beatification of Father Mychal Judge, the Italian nun murdered in Somalia after Benedict XVI's speech in 2006, the Pakistani Minister for Minorities murdered in 2011- all martyrs for their faith- and to hell wiht the intellectual and moral dhimmi class of the West!

"Catholics should pray for the Prifidious Jews". In the name of "Hail Mary" or Our Father in Heaven?

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