Boston jihad murderer: “F*** America,” “Praise Allah”

He also railed at the Infidels. An update on this story. “‘F***’ America,’ Boston Marathon Bomb Suspect Wrote in Boat: Officials,” by Michele McPhee, Aaron Katersky and Brian Ross for ABC News, May 16:

As police searched for him, and as he lay bleeding in his boat hideout, Boston Marathon bombing suspect Dzhokhar Tsarnaev wrote “F*** America” on the side panel of the boat, police in Massachusetts told ABC News.

Officers said they also discovered the phrase “Praise Allah” on the boat’s side panels and several anti-American screeds, including references to Iraq, Afghanistan and “the infidels.”

A Massachusetts official showed ABC News what he said was a cell phone picture of the phrase “Praise Allah,” written in black ink, with a bullet hole above it, believed to have been written by Dzhokhar as he hid inside the boat in Watertown, Mass.

Also seen in the picture was the faintly written word “brother,” which the official said was part of a reference by the younger Tsarnaev “that was something about his brother is lucky to be with Allah first.”…

New York: 15 Muslims arrested for $55 million dollar cigarette smuggling ring to fund jihad terror
Boston reservoir tests safe after seven Muslims caught trespassing there after midnight
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Comments

  1. says

    Admiring the persistence you put into your blog and in depth information yoou provide.

    It’s nice to come across a blog eery once in a while thast isn’t the sane outdated rehashed material.
    Fantastic read! I’ve saved yiur site and I’m including your RSS feeds to my
    Gooble account.

  2. says

    You know, this dying declaration ought to give leftists reason to look seriously at the whole idea of jihad and how seriously jihadists take their Islamic duties. Here we have an individual who knows that he’s being hunted and that he knows that he’s dangerously injured. For others the sheer excitement of the last 15 hours would alone have sent them into shock, even apart from the hunt and injuries aspects.

    Notwithstanding, look what this guy is focused on: justifying his Islamic jihadist goals by making these declarations.

    Leftists likely won’t give this suggestion the consideration it obviously deserves as doing so would be seen as conceding that JW/Spencer/Geller have been right all along. But in this case the Tsarnaev brothers have themselves proven JW/Spencer/Geller right in spades.

  3. says

    Mohammed taught his followers to swear at his opponents so as to take away their honor.

    The Tsarnaev brothers are classical jihadists.

    How many potential Tsarnaev brothers are waiting in neighborhoods all over the United States? How many potential jihadists are entering the United States each year? How many young potential jihadists are dreaming, thinking, learning and plotting for jihad right now?

  4. says

    A young Caucasian Moslem activist who’d f*** the hand that fed him.
    Dzhokhar would f*** America, with pleasure, even despite the cash welfare,
    This guy would f*** anything, the whore, so long as it furthered the Cause.
    $100K jizya, fair payment to f*** the Infidels with a Caliphate, to their despair,
    Oh so what, f*** em all, f*** their pious cowardice, infidelity and stupid laws.

  5. says

    Shhh, don’t tell Rasool Obama about this, it will ruin his day…It’s too late to redact it…It’s too late to lie about it…Allah has been outed as an accessory to murder, crime, jihad, and terrorism…When will Eric Holder indict him/it for crimes against humanity?

  6. says

    “that was something about his brother is lucky to be with Allah first.”…

    Unfortunately, we can’t trade him for the people he killed. A boy with his whole life ahead of him, snuffed out by this piece of garbage. People like the Tsarnaevs are enough to make one lose all faith in God. Why would He kill good people and let this piece of trash live?

  7. says

    Sounds as if that little “angel” Dzokhar graduated with honors from the Nathan Lean school of charm and diction…

  8. says

    Boston jihad murderer: “F*** America,” “Praise Allah”
    ……………………………….

    Well, a declaration of the Islamic philosophy doesn’t get much more basic than that. I suppose brevity is the soul of “wit”, though, when you’re writing your “manifesto” on the side of a fiberglass boat.

    More:

    Officers said they also discovered the phrase “Praise Allah” on the boat’s side panels and several anti-American screeds, including references to Iraq, Afghanistan and “the infidels.”
    ……………………………….

    What”nothing about the “plight of the Palestinians”? Muslim apologist “Americana” would have us believe that all Jihad against the United Sates”including that by the Tsarnaev brothers”stems from our support of Israel.

  9. says

    Imagine being the owner of that boat.

    What are you going to *do* with it (once the trial’s over, and assuming there’s anything left of the boat once the forensics people are through with it)?

    Suggestions?

    I know nothing about fibreglass boats nor about the extent of the damage from bullet holes, etc, so I don’t know whether it can be fixed.

    If it *were* fixable, then if it were the boat-owner this is what I’d do:

    1/ get the graffiti removed – and play hymns and other Infidel music through a ghetto blaster while I was doing it

    2/ get the boat fixed

    3/ give the boat a new name – ‘America’ or ‘Stars and Stripes’ or perhaps even ‘John Quincy Adams’ or ‘Lan Astaslem’ – with a ceremony involving a full-on blessing pronounced by the local priest or vicar, and the sloshing about of a/ holy water and then b/ champagne. Do it on fourth of July and…throw a block party and let off fireworks and sing ‘America the Beautiful’.

    Call it an exorcism and a reclamation/ recommissioning.

    If the damage *weren’t* fixable, then I’d 1/ remove the graffiti, every last skerrick 2/ get a priest to pray a blessing and throw plenty of holy water about, so as to break any curses 3/ get it pulverised/ melted down …what *do* people do with superannuated fibreglass boats?

  10. says

    Well, I hope that the boat owner files vandalism charges against the young punk.

    But, on a more serious note, there ought to be some serious overhauling of the asylum system. I’ve seen supposed “asylees” from China supporting a Fujian-American Association which is about as pro-Beijing as they come (heck, the old German refugees of my Dad’s day wouldn’t even admit that Hitler made the trains run on time–Ve Chormans iss all goot at such stoff!). Now, we have the Tsarnaevs who got asylum, went back to oppressive Tante Royzel every now and then while on welfare, and they show their gratitude by waging jihad against marathon runners.

    When translating for lawyers working for a group of Fuzhou-area (heck, not even all of Fujian province) asylum seekers who were caught, I suggested that if the immigration folks had any brains, they’d ask for specifics of supposed “dissent” activities or how much of the Christian faith they actually knew when they claimed that as a reason for asylum (it was indeed an issue, for back in the ’90’s the PRC would start cracking down on unregistered churches the moment it became apparent that more 18-year-olds were applying for baptism than for Party membership).

    And look how the Salvadoreans gave us the Maras Salvatruchas and other gangs!

    Now we have Muslims of all stripes asking “asylum”, but for what? It’s not just here, but in every civilized country.

  11. says

    The FBI,HLS and Obama are still scratching their heads over the motive for the bombing.

    So far they are going on the premis he was a misguided youth lead astray by some sort of people that have an inner pain with no idea how to express themselves.

    CAIR is also puzzled but didn’t waste time to issue another “backlash” alert for mosques and muslims to beef up security and never walk alone to become a target for that rare islamophobe we never can catch in the act.

  12. says

    A similar graffito was found in Toronto on a World War II monument, obviously written by a young Muslim jihadist: “Canada will burn. Praise Allah.”

    Canadians, Americans, the enemy is among you. They want to kill for Allah.

  13. says

    @ Muxlim

    Well, if you come over here and f*** with our culture, what do you expect? Why doesn’t Islam respect us? Eh…….?

    Clown!

  14. says

    Dear dumbledoresarmy, and gravenimage, and others here,

    This comment is off-topic (in a specific sense, but not in a general way actually), but I’m just writing it because I have noticed that many of the commenters here who are Christian have often referred to Christian religious themes on this forum, and I just want to inform those of you here who are Christian and who (for right reasons — ethical reasons) support Israel and the Jewish people of the following things.

    And I want to thank you, dumbledoresarmy, for your having supported me. Thank you, dumbledoresarmy, for the kindness you have given me.

    And I want to let you, dumbledoresarmy and gravenimage and everyone else who supports Israel and the Jewish people, know that I appreciate your support of Israel and the Jewish people very much.

    Best wishes,

    Dan

    —-

    “As is the seed that’s sown, so is the fruit that is reaped. The doer of good will gather good, the doer of evil, will evil reap. Sown is the seed, and you will taste the fruit thereof.”

    — The Buddha, Samyutta Nikaya

    Alternative translation:

    “According to the seed that’s sown,
    so is the fruit you reap there from.
    Doer of good will gather good.
    Doer of evil, evil reaps.
    Sown is the seed and thou shalt taste
    the fruit thereof.”

    — The Buddha, Samyutta Nikaya

    —-

    “Easily seen is the fault of others, but one’s own fault is difficult to see. Like chaff one winnows another’s faults, but hides one’s own, even as a crafty fowler hides behind sham branches.”

    — The Buddha, Dhammapada, Chapter 18 – Malavagga: Impurity, verse 252
    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.18.budd.html#dhp-252

    —-

    “Here he grieves
    he grieves hereafter.
    In both worlds
    the wrong-doer grieves.
    He grieves, he’s afflicted,
    seeing the corruption
    of his deeds.”

    “Here he rejoices
    he rejoices hereafter.
    In both worlds
    the merit-maker rejoices.
    He rejoices, is jubilant,
    seeing the purity
    of his deeds.”

    “Here he’s tormented
    he’s tormented hereafter.
    In both worlds
    the wrong-doer’s tormented.
    He’s tormented at the thought,
    ‘I’ve done wrong.’
    Having gone to a bad destination,
    he’s tormented
    all the more.”

    “Here he delights
    he delights hereafter.
    In both worlds
    the merit-maker delights.
    He delights at the thought,
    ‘I’ve made merit.’
    Having gone to a good destination,
    he delights
    all the more.”

    — The Buddha, Dhammapada, Chapter 1 – Yamakavagga: Pairs , verses 1-2
    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.01.budd.html#dhp-1

    —-

    “So long as an evil deed has not ripened, the fool thinks it as sweet as honey. But when the evil deed ripens, the fool comes to grief.”

    — The Buddha, Dhammapada, Chapter 5 – Balavagga: The Fool, verse 69
    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.05.budd.html#dhp-69

    “Truly, an evil deed committed does not immediately bear fruit, like milk that does not turn sour all at once. But smoldering, it follows the fool like fire covered by ashes.”

    — The Buddha, Dhammapada, Chapter 5 – Balavagga: The Fool, verse 71
    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.05.budd.html#dhp-71

    “It may be well with the evil-doer as long as the evil ripens not. But when it does ripen, then the evil-doer sees (the painful results of) his evil deeds.

    “It may be ill with the doer of good as long as the good ripens not. But when it does ripen, then the doer of good sees (the pleasant results of) his good deeds.”

    — The Buddha, Dhammapada, Chapter 9 – Papavagga: Evil, verses 119-120
    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.09.budd.html#dhp-119

    “Think not lightly of evil, saying, ‘It will not come to me.’ Drop by drop is the water pot filled. Likewise, the fool, gathering it little by little, fills himself with evil.

    “Think not lightly of good, saying, ‘It will not come to me.’ Drop by drop is the water pot filled. Likewise, the wise man, gathering it little by little, fills himself with good.”

    — The Buddha, Dhammapada, Chapter 9 – Papavagga: Evil, verses 121-122
    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.09.budd.html#dhp-121

    —-

    “Hatred is never appeased by hatred in this world. By non-hatred alone is hatred appeased. This is a law eternal.”

    — The Buddha, Dhammapada, Chapter 1 – Yamakavagga: Pairs , verse 5
    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.01.budd.html#dhp-5

    “Conquer anger
    with lack of anger;
    bad, with good;
    stinginess, with a gift;
    a liar, with truth.”

    — The Buddha, Dhammapada, Chapter 17 – Kodhavagga: Anger, verse 223
    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.17.than.html#dhp-223

    —-

    “Whatever harm an enemy may do to an enemy, or a hater to a hater, an ill-directed mind inflicts on oneself a greater harm.

    “Neither mother, father, nor any other relative can do one greater good than one’s own well-directed mind.”

    — The Buddha, Dhammapada, dhp.03.than.html
    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.01.budd.html#dhp-1

    —-

    “Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with an impure mind a person speaks or acts suffering follows him like the wheel that follows the foot of the ox.

    “Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with a pure mind a person speaks or acts happiness follows him like his never-departing shadow.”

    — The Buddha, Dhammapada, Chapter 1 – Yamakavagga: Pairs , verses 1-2
    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.01.budd.html#dhp-1

    —-

    “…Now this, monks, is the noble truth of stress: Birth is stressful, aging is stressful, death is stressful; sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are stressful; association with the unbeloved is stressful, separation from the loved is stressful, not getting what is wanted is stressful. In short, the five clinging-aggregates* are stressful.

    “And this, monks, is the noble truth of the origination of stress: the craving that makes for further becoming ” accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there ” i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming.

    “And this, monks, is the noble truth of the cessation of stress: the remainderless fading & cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, & letting go of that very craving.

    “And this, monks, is the noble truth of the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress: precisely this Noble Eightfold Path ” right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. …”

    — The Buddha, Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta: Setting the Wheel of Dhamma in Motion
    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn56/sn56.011.than.html

    Note: * The five clinging aggregates:

    Khandha Sutta: Aggregates
    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.048.than.html

    —-

    “The non-doing of any evil,
    the performance of what’s skillful,
    the cleansing of one’s own mind:
    this is the teaching
    of the Awakened.”

    “- The Buddha, Dhammapada, Chapter 14 – Buddhavagga: Awakened
    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.14.than.html#dhp-183

    —-

    Access to Insight – Readings in Theravada Buddhism
    http://www.accesstoinsight.org

    —-

    And about Christianity and anti-Jewish bigotry:

    Uprooting Antisemitism Through Scholarship and Education, by Dr. Catherine Chatterley, hosted by Jewish Foundation of Manitoba, Women’s Endowment Fund Lecture, Winnipeg, 2011
    http://vimeo.com/45200603

    The Antisemitic Imagination, by Dr. Catherine Chatterley
    http://can-isa.netfirms.com/publishing.html

    “Dr. Chatterley’s new book argues that antisemitism is one of humanity’s most enduring and destructive inventions due to its core-location at the center of the Western religious imagination. The book is composed of six chronological chapters, which explain the nature of the Antisemitic Imagination by examining its historical and cultural evolution over the last two millennia.

    “Antisemitism is the product of the rancorous separation between Judaism and the Jesus Movement, which evolves during the first century into a gentile church and later into the imperial religion of Christianity. The four gospels, and other books of the New Testament, inform the intellectual, emotional, and legal foundations of European civilization in all its diverse manifestations. It is these texts that are implicitly anti-Judaic, and pregnant with the basic components of antisemitism, which evolves into a popular mass phenomenon during the High Middle Ages.

    “During these centuries (1000-1300 CE) a fictitious character comes to life out of the stories and liturgies of the Church. That character is “the Jew,” a figment of the Christian imagination, who is both the product and generator of antisemitism. The character is defined by its anti-ethical essence and criminal behavior, which is contrasted to that of the Christian in a bilateral exercise of demonization and edification. “The Jew” becomes utterly indispensable to the Church, its people, and its message. At once, the character is used to define Jewish vice and to demonstrate Christian virtue, illustrating both the forsaken nature of Judaism and its people and the truth of the Christian message. Chatterley argues that this dialectical relationship between Christians and Jews, rooted in theology and characterized by a Manichean splitting between good and evil, is one of the pivots of Western history.

    “”The Jew” becomes an idée fixe in the theology of the Church for his rejection, torture, and killing of Christ. This conception of “the Jew” as traitor and Christ-killer defines his essential nature and criminal motivation in the European imagination. Remarkably consistent across time and space, regardless of European region, religious denomination, language, or nationality, the negative value and behavioral characteristics attached to “the Jew” are static and monotonous. As Steven Katz and Sander Gilman have observed, “we see shifts in the articulation of perception over time in different contexts, but not in the basic perception itself.”

    “Through an analysis of words and images the book demonstrates that despite the dramatic changes in European societies from the Middle Ages through the Enlightenment into the twenty-first century, the antisemite fixates upon the same negative qualities and motivations he sees in “the Jew” and continues to make the same basic accusations about his character and behavior. Even the annihilation of over six million Jews in the European heartland during the middle of the last century did not destroy the ideological fixation on “the Jew.”

    “The radically immoral characteristics of this fabrication created by Christianity remain consistent despite their secularization and racialization during the 18th and 19th centuries, their Islamization from the middle of the 20th century, and their globalization via the Internet and satellite television since 2001. For the antisemite, “the Jew” remains inherently unethical, enormously powerful, conspiratorial by nature, intent on world domination, corrosive in effect, and an existential threat to humanity however that shifting concept is defined (be it Christian, proletarian, “Aryan”, or Islamic). The book demonstrates that this has been the case historically regardless of whether or not the context was religious or secular, Western or Islamic, left or right.

    “The Antisemitic Imagination seeks to clarify our understanding of the nature of antisemitism by assessing how the phenomenon operates inside Western culture and its religious imagination. It will also explain how and why antisemitism is flourishing today–for the first time in history outside a Christian cultural context. The book concludes by arguing that “the Jew”, a libelous fictitious abstraction first generated and then propagated by Christian Europe, must be uprooted from our imagination in the interests of truth, morality, and justice.

    The Antisemitic Imagination, by Dr. Catherine Chatterley

    “The old proverb tells us that “a picture is worth a thousand words.” Indeed, for millennia images have been both influencing and reflecting the Western imagination. A central character in that imagination has been “the Jew,” a fictional compound produced over centuries by a confluence of complex, inter-related factors.

    “Foundational to this construct is an increasingly hostile Christian theology in which the Jewish people are accused of killing G-d, in the form of His son Jesus. As a consequence of this accusation the entire Jewish community, from the first century through the twentieth, was collectively branded with the crime of deicide. It is worth noting the fact that no other religion in human history has ever accused a people of killing G-d. …”

    Western Culture, the Holocaust, and the Persistence Of Antisemitism, by Catherine Chatterley

    “…In Western culture, the beliefs many people still hold about ‘the Jews’ are not seen to be antisemitic (read genocidal) but are simply felt to be reflective of day-to-day reality. In other words, what some of us identify as antisemitic ways of thinking most people see as simply reflective of a reality in which Jews are in fact wealthy, in fact powerful, in fact connected to one another, and in fact work together (or conspire) to protect their own communal and individual interests, which today include the fate of the State of Israel. Again, this is not new but fully consistent with classical forms of European antisemitism, in which antisemites point to ‘reality’ to illustrate Jewish power, conspiracy, materialism, criminality, or whatever negative association they want to affix to ‘the Jews.’ And the ‘reality’ they find then reconfirms their pre-existing antisemitism, as it does today. After almost 2000 years of indoctrination, which has worked very hard to fix the Western imagination”and our individual attention”upon this abstract collective called ‘the Jews,’ we should not be surprised to discover that Western culture is riddled with antisemitic perceptions and habits of thought about the Jewish people. And this complex invisible reality has not been exorcised by the Holocaust. Negative beliefs and attitudes about Jews are so normal and so ingrained in Western perceptions and attitudes that people”both gentiles and Jews”are simply unable to recognize them for what they are.…”

    “…In the Western world, ‘the Jews’ have for millennia been demonized collectively and conceptualized as nihilistic operatives working against the goals of humanity, whether defined as Christian, Enlightened, Proletarian, or even Aryan. ‘The Jews’ have been associated in the most concrete and abstract ways with every conceivable form of evil known to Western culture: killing God in the form of Jesus; kidnapping, torturing, and killing children; poisoning, cheating, and conspiring against their neighbours; cannibalism, blood-drinking, devil-worship, human sacrifice; every form of disloyalty to the state; extortion, blackmail, and all types of financial crime one can only imagine. This is precisely the context that invented and maintained the lie of the ‘Worldwide Jewish Conspiracy,’ which in turn produced the Hitlerian solution, and both have been exported around the world. What is so extremely disturbing about Ahmadinejad’s rhetoric, and many others who echo him, is its classic antisemitic depiction of ‘the Jews,’ here in the contemporary form of ‘Zionists,’ as operating outside the values and interests of common humanity and all that is good. Worse still is the fact that this seems to go unnoticed by the vast majority of people in Western nations, including otherwise progressive academics and members of government. Few seem to notice that the West is being courted by Ahmadinejad to be recruited into his global antisemitic strategy under the banner of humanistic inclusion and spiritual redemption…”

    Text: http://web.archive.org/web/20090422150719/http://www.yale.edu/yiisa/chatterleypaper3509.pdf

    Video (RealMedia format): http://streaming.yale.edu:8080/ramgen/cmibroadcast/yiisa/chatterley_030509.rm

    RealPlayer – RealMedia player
    http://www.real.com/

    —-

    By the way:

    Antisemitism in America – Yale Kills Yiisa, by Clemens Heni
    http://clemensheni.wordpress.com/2011/06/08/yale-kills-yiisa/

    “Yale’s action proves that criticism of antisemitism in the US and on campus is possible, as long as you are just dealing with Nazis and Neonazis, or right-wing Christians, promoting old-school antisemitism. The much bigger portion of academia and the public, liberal or progressive Christians, non-believers, Muslims, and others who are spreading new style antisemitism, anti-Zionism, and Israel hatred, remain untouched. This is the core argument of ABBY WISSE SCHACHTER , writing on June 6, 2011, in the New York Post:

    “”Yale University last week killed the Yale Initiative for the Interdisciplinary Study of Antisemitism ” the only program of its kind in the country, an academically stellar one-stop anti-Semitism research shop. Worse, it almost certainly did so because YIISA refused to ignore the most virulent, genocidal and common form of Jew-hatred today: Muslim anti-Semitism.”

    “If one is analyzing the most dangerous form of contemporary antisemitism, you are censored, defamed, bullied, and finally thrown out from campus: highlighting Muslim and Arab antisemitism is taboo.

    “In that sense, American academe is like its counterpart in Europe.

    “Analyzing liberal and left hypocrisy, YIISA Associate Professor Neil Kressel, already showed in 1992 that progressives aim at antisemites as long as they are right-wing or Nazis. Antisemitism from the Third World or from minority groups, including the left, have never been a topic for mainstream scholars and journalists in the US. Contrary to fantasies about a powerful “Israel-Lobby’ in the US, antisemitism is very strong among the elites in America. The recent Yale decision is proof for this. …”

    —-

    “Dr. Chatterley teaches modern European and Jewish history at the University of Manitoba and directs the Canadian Institute for the Study of Antisemitism (CISA), which she founded in 2010.”

    Canadian Institute for the Study of Antisemitism
    http://www.can-isa.com

  15. says

    Another disgusting aspect to this is the “Free Jahar” movement. Among the supporters are young women who find this turd attractive and believe that he’s innocent.

    Who the F are the parents of those imbeciles and why aren’t they setting their daughters straight?

    I know that some of you will disagree with my views. But a line must be drawn between good and evil of every sort. If you support terrorists–knowingly and unknowingly, whatever your reasons–expect me to get ugly with you.

    Islam: where freedom ends and slavery begins.

  16. says

    Also seen in the picture was the faintly written word “brother,” which the official said was part of a reference by the younger Tsarnaev “that was something about his brother is lucky to be with Allah first.”…

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    He’s in hell, how is that lucky? Fool!

  17. says

    My problem w all this is, what are we supposed to believe. First we are told he is severely ounded in a boat, huddled in a corner. Police say they riddled boat w bullets. Picture shows him lying in boat. Shows him walking out of said boat. WHAT? Now he apparently had a pencil/pen and felt good enough to write a note? In the dark? Really??? Has anyone noticed how stuff gets added in all these cases? I am disappointed in the writer, follow him but why should we believe what he wrote, to many questions I guess

  18. says

    (1) I am not saying that mankind deserves all of the bad that happens to mankind but why do some people blame God for the failings of men when men have clearly failed to do good politics which is possible with the liberty we have today under the Constitution which was created by people who were doing good works. Doing too much “good politics” or too much “good religion” in biblical times got you killed. We have progressed a long way since then. See: http://pledge7.org/

    (2) The boat belongs in an MUSEUM OF ISLAMIC JIHAD which could be located in Washington, DC.

  19. says

    Mr, Swami, do you recall the infrared images taken by the orbiting helicopter? At some point, they did know where in that boat he was.
    Not sure if that were before or after shots were fired, though…

  20. says

    Oh come on, Senile. The cops had almost certainly been told to do their level best to take the last scumbag alive. Not out of any love for the bomber, but for the very practical reason that they wanted to be able to interrogate him and ferret out his accomplices and cohorts and partners-in-jihad.

    I’d have done the same thing if I’d been the cop in charge. I’d have told my men not to take chances with their or anyone else’s lives, but if possible, scare the punk into putting his hands up.

  21. says

    I have nothing against taking terrorists alive in order to interrogate them. Mirandizing them several hours ahead of time, however, and questioning them with kid gloves renders such a potentially useful exercise useless and pointless.

  22. says

    I agree with LemonLime and CornHolio. Police in the civilized West *always* prefer to take any target alive, and will go to great lengths to do so, no matter how vile he may be. This was no accident, nor was it indicative of poor shootin’ on the part of the officers.

  23. says

    Well, that’s just it, duh. You can run all you want, but sooner or later, ducking into the bushes with the best camouflage and covering you can devise for yourself, but sooner or later God comes along and says, “Adam (Man), where art thou?”–Gen 3:9.

    It isn’t that God doesn’t know where you are; it’s just that when my young son tried to hide after doing wrong and I went after him and called him out with similar words, I was a pale reflection what the Father of us all is like.

    And, I do not think God involves himself only in our affairs. He upholds all things from the created universe to the smallest quark (that’s as far as my physics education went–I defer to others) with the word of his power. But by giving us reason and speech, as he himself is both (see John 1:1), he chooses to interact with us.

  24. says

    LemonLime, and Davegreybeard,

    What other people is accused of killing ‘God’, working against the interests of common humanity generation after generation, of running a world-wide conspiracy to control and then destroy the planet, of starting and financing wars today and in the past, of controlling world financial institutions and the international markets? …Are Aboriginal peoples accused of these things? Africans? Americans of African decent? The Chinese? Indians? The Roma? The Scotts? Arabs? Persians? No. The truth is that no other people are accused of these things. No other people in history has been perceived to have this kind of cosmic power, this need for world control, and this degree of bad faith and evil intention. Why? Why is this the case? Why the Jewish people? For an explanation we must look to history. …”

    Uprooting Antisemitism Through Scholarship and Education, by Dr. Catherine Chatterley
    http://vimeo.com/45200603

    —-

    The Jewish people were mass-murdered, in the millions, by supposedly civilized Westerners, culturally Christian Europeans, just seventy years ago. Look at the situation that the Jewish people are in now. Look at the situation that the newly-refounded, liberal democratic, intendedly genocidally besieged, repeatedly militarily attacked, repeatedly terroristically attacked, continuously diplomatically attacked, continuously libeled, sole country of the Jewish people is in regards to the West — Western governments, Western mass media, Western “academics”, Western contemporary so-called “Human Rights” NGO’s, etc., and the majority of Western public opinion.

    Look at how the West — Western governments, Western mass media, Western “academics”, Western contemporary so-called “Human Rights” NGO’s, etc. — is treating the adherents and proponents of the ideology — the Islamic supremacist political movement — the resurgence of orthodox Islam — whose adherents and proponents (the Iranian regime (including its proxy Hizbollah), the Muslim Brotherhood (including its offshoot terrorist organizations, and including its terrorist official arm organization Hamas), Fatah-PLO, the OIC, etc.) — are engaging in a strategic war of extermination against Israel and the Jewish people.

    —-

    LemonLime,

    “Islam’s worse antisemitism”? Not so. Islamic and culturally Islamic anti-Jewish bigotry, as it has been practiced, overall, throughout the existence of Islam, and as it has been held ideologically, overall, throughout the existence of Islam, has not been worse than Christian European and culturally Christian-European anti-Jewish bigotry as it has been practiced, overall, throughout the existence of Christianity, and as it has been held ideologically, overall, throughout the existence of Christianity.

    Jewish people — Ashkenazi Jewish people (ethnically Jewish-West-European, and ethnically Jewish-East-European, people) in particular — are afraid of talking about the full degree and extent of historical Christian-European anti-Jewish bigotry publicly for fear of being shouted down and hated by Christians and culturally Christian-European people, and when Jewish people — Ashkenazi Jewish people — and non-Jewish people endeavoring to stand up for the human rights of the Jewish people, do try to talk about the full degree of Christian European anti-Jewish bigotry publicly in the West they are verbally attacked and marginalized by Christians and culturally Christian-European people — and that’s a legacy of Christian-European anti-Jewish bigotry.

    And Christian European anti-Jewish bigotry — much less the full degree of Christian European anti-Jewish bigotry — is not widely taught in the West by culturally Christian-European people — and that’s part of the anti-Jewish bigotry that exists in the West which is a legacy of Christian European anti-Jewish bigotry.

    —-

    Constantine’s Sword: The Church and the Jews, A History
    http://www.amazon.com/Constantines-Sword-Church-Jews-History/dp/0618219080

    Jihad and Jew-Hatred: An Interview with Matthias Küntzel
    http://207.97.238.133/democratiya/article.php?article=249

    “…The main achievement of Haj Amin al-Husseini, the Mufti of Jerusalem, was to combine the Jew-hatred of ancient Islam with [Western] modern anti-Semitism into a new and persuasive rhetoric. I discovered a speech he gave in 1937 with the title, “Jewry and Islam.’ Here, he intermingled modern anti-Semitism [with] the stories of very early Islam, going back and forth from the 7th and the 20th centuries, and connecting both kinds of Jew-hatred. This was something new. …”

    —-

    And, LemonLime, you referred to Dr. Chatterley as possibly having engaged in what you called “inexcusable scholarly lapse to ideological treason.” That statement that you made is extremely harsh and is wrong. Dr. Chatterley is standing up for the human rights of the the Jewish people and is, thereby, endeavoring to defend and protect the Jewish people, and is endeavoring to make the situation in the world better, by telling crucial facts of the history of the situation that the Jewish people have been in for the past two thousand years. That which Dr. Chatterley is doing is ethically imperative. Your making the harsh wrong statement that you made about Dr. Chatterley, and your therein wrongfully potentially discrediting, in the eyes of others, her, and your therein wrongfully potentially discrediting, in the eyes of others, her telling of the truth of the situation that the Jewish people are in, is harmful and wrong.

    Many Christians today are not maliciously bigoted toward the Jewish people, and most Christians today don’t know the history of Christian European anti-Jewish bigotry, because it hasn’t been widely taught or talked about, because of Western anti-Jewish bigotry, and because of the fear of talking about it that Jewish people still have. And culturally Christian European people don’t know or understand the extremely harmful effects — physical, emotional, psychological — that Christian anti-Jewish bigotry has had on the Jewish people. And most culturally Christian-European people don’t recognize the current Western anti-Jewish bigotry that is causing the current Western collusion with the Islamic supremacist political movement.

    However, I hope that the history of Christian European anti-Jewish bigotry will be talked about and taught — to dispel the Western anti-Jewish bigotry that still exists in the West, and to heal the Ashkenazi Jewish people, and to bring Jewish people and Western culturally Christian-European non-Jewish people together, and to stop the Western collusion with, and enablement of, the Islamic supremacist political movement, and to thereby dispel and stop the contemporary Islamic supremacist political movement.

  25. says

    Dear gravenimage,

    Thank you for your kind friendliness. It made me feel better. Your kind friendliness made me feel better. Thank you. I wasn’t feeling well. But I’m feeling better now — a little bit somewhat. But I think that the way I was expressing myself was not helpful. I’m in a difficult situation. And the Jewish people are in a difficult situation. But I hope that Western non-Jewish people will understand how I feel. And I hope that Western non-Jewish people will realize about the anti-Jewish bigotry that is causing the Western collusion with the Islamic supremacist political movement. And I hope that you’ll listen to the talk by Dr. Catherine Chatterley that I listed. By the way, in the talk, she talks about her deep connection to her grandmother who was devoutly Christian and who supported the Jewish people.

    Thank you again for your kind friendliness and for your gentle kicking me in the pants.

    Best wishes,

    Dan

  26. says

    There’s a complex wrinkle in Daniel Bielak’s thesis which he appears to ignore: while he’s certainly right that certain Western antisemites would snuggle up to Muslims, I remain unconvinced that such Westerners are numerous and represent anything broader, demographically and ideologically, than a very small minority of radical Leftists (along with a smaller smattering of strange bedfellows in the form of idiosyncratically cranky ultra-right-wingers). In this particular regard, Bielak seems to be doing an elaborate maneuver of legerdemain by conflating a seemingly impressive historical survey and analysis of past eras with current sociopolitics today, and with a flick of his wrist out of his sleeve — Presto! — turning Potentiality into Actuality.

    More to the point of my comment here, there is actually an arguably more influential ideological fashion that has been regnant for at least a half century: the “Never Again” mantra of the Holocaust has undergone a grotesque mutation whereby Muslims have become the “New Jews” meanwhile Israel is cast as an “apartheid” state and vague (and sometimes not so vague) allusions are made to the fascistic if not even Nazi-like character and actions of the Israeli government, in its supposedly monstrous treatment of those precious “New Jews” aka “Palestinians”. This new myth has acquired considerable traction and influence — chiefly among the PC MC (who include innumerable “conservatives”) and their more potent Leftist cousins; and, among a whole spectrum of ways, finds common expression in the travelling road show of the Priest, the Rabbi & the Imam preaching their carnival routine of an “Abrahamic Inter-Faith Seminar”. A dazzlingly diverse array of social and political events, church events, mosque events, speeches, round-tables, seminars, radio and TV interviews, college panels goes on all over the West, richly so in the USA and Canada, year in and year out, purveying and reinforcing the connection between Multicultural Ethics eschewing bigotry and racism, on the one hand, and “tolerance” for our “friends” the Muslims.

    Meanwhile, through their incoherently paradoxical PC MC paradigm that remains obtusely, if not perversely, myopic to the Jew-hatred Muslims cultivate psychologically and culturally through their Islam, these Christian, Jewish and Atheist & Agnostic dupes continue to build a massive and elaborate construction that is inviting the Muslim wolves deeper and deeper into the barn.

    Why Bielak chooses to be oblivious to such a dimension of the problem probably far more significant in sociocultural and political influence on the problem that concerns him (as it should concern all in the West who cherish freedom and human rights), perhaps may, ironically, have something to do with the very same PC MC that is causing our problem.

  27. says

    And I apologize to Middle Eastern Christians for my referring to them in my previous comment. I know that they’re in a difficult situation and I feel badly for them. May they be well and happy. May anyone who is reading this message be well and happy. May everyone who is reading this message be well and happy.

  28. says

    A more fact-laden, more comprehensive, talk (including important Question and Answer session):

    “What is Antisemitism and How Does It Affect the Conflict?”, by Dr. Catherine Chatterley, University of Winnipeg, Middle East Week, March 2013
    http://vimeo.com/61949203

  29. says

    Davegreybeard,

    To suggest that Christians are somehow responsible for the Holocaust, is a slander of a magnitude that makes ‘The Protocols of The Elders of Zion’ pale in comparison. Why do you promulgate such hate?

    Do the huge stadiums full of Christian German people smiling, ecstatic, giving the Nazi salute and screaming “Sieg Heil” mean nothing to you?
    Does the overwhelming majority vote for Adolf Hitler in Germany by Christian German people mean nothing to you?
    Does the overwhelming majority vote for Adolf Hitler in Austria by Christian Austrian people mean nothing to you?
    Does the large co-operation of Christian European populations of Christian European countries in rounding up and killing Jewish people during the Shoah mean nothing to you?

    Hitler’s Willing Executioners: Ordinary Germans and the Holocaust
    http://www.amazon.com/Hitlers-Willing-Executioners-Ordinary-Holocaust/dp/0679772685

    Does the Catholic Christian church’s alliance with the Nazi regime of Germany mean nothing to you?

    Unholy Trinity: The Vatican, The Nazis, and The Swiss Banks
    http://www.amazon.com/Unholy-Trinity-Vatican-Nazis-Swiss/dp/031218199X/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

    Hitler’s Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII
    http://www.amazon.com/Hitlers-Pope-Secret-History-Pius/dp/014311400X

    Nazi photos — Christian Priests, Hitler and Nazis and Churches and Crosses
    http://www.nobeliefs.com/nazis.htm

    One may type the words “Hitler” and “church”, or “Nazi” and “church”, etc. into Google Images and see the myriad of photos of Christian priests making the Nazi salut, and with Adolf Hitler and with other Nazi officials.

    Do the over five hundred of years of the Catholic Christian church’s aural and visual libeling and demonizing vilifying of the Jewish people (through paintings, sculpture, woodcuts, reliefs on buildings, passion plays, religious holiday services, sermons, liturgy, hymns) mean nothing to you?

    And you called the referring to even basic things such as these slander.

    And you called the referring to an actual mass-murder of six million Jewish people by Christian European people a slander. And you called the referring to that actual mass-murder of six million Jewish people by Christian European people a slander worse than an actual intendedly genocidal anti-Jewish libel that caused that actual mass-murder of six million Jewish people by Christian European people.

    And, by the way:

    “My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.”

    — Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)
    http://www.nobeliefs.com/hitler.htm

    —-

    No sir.

    It would be good if YOU put yourself in the shoes of believing Christians, who OVERWHELMINGLY support Israel, and reflect for a long while on just why they do so.

    You implicitly expressed that the majority of who you called “believing Christians” support Israel. Do the majority of Christians in the world support Israel?

    I have expressed that many Christians are supporting Israel.

    I have expressed appreciation for Christians who, for right reasons — ethical reasons, are supporting Israel.

    What is the reason that you are implying that who you are calling “believing Christians” support Israel?

    —-

    Then, it would be good if you put yourself in the shoes of other honest men (whom you disdainfully call Christians) and try to understand why they also support Israel.

    You implicitly expressed that my explaining why you were culturally Christian-European and my expressing that it seemed to me that you were Christian after you said that you were not culturally Christian-European and after you vaguely implied that you were Christian was referring to Christians disdainfully.

    And you implicitly expressed that who you called “believing Christians” are, by definition, what you called “honest men”, and you expressed that other people are what you called “honest men”, and you implicitly expressed that I am not honest, and you implicitly expressed that I am not a member of whom you called “honest men”.

    —-

    Do you take us for fools, Sir?”

    I see you yourself as what you are.

    Who are you referring to as being “us” — from whom you have excluded me?

    —-

    This statement of yours is so outlandish and so provably false, on the face of it, as to call into question the sanity of the one proffering it.

    This statement that you have expressed is false and demonstrates extreme ignorance and bigotry and malice.

    —-

    And it seems to me that you Sir, are a bigot.

    And you called me a bigot. And you did this while you called me “Sir”.

    —-

    I support Israel, period.

    You may do whatever you want.

    —-

    Thank God it is not populated by hateful fools such as yourself. ”

    And you called me hateful and you called me a fool.

    —-

    You wrote these things to me in response to my expressing facts about the suffering of my people, including my own suffering.

  30. says

    Bielak makes two serious errors in his view of the Holocaust. He assumes that a society like 1930s/40s Germany is “Christian” just because everyone is de facto “Christian”. In doing so, Bielak utterly ignores the countervailing and massive fact of the effects of modern secularism on Western societies, where the nominal Christian and the cultural Christian have become the norm. Even in the 19th century, the great poet and astute observer of the European mind and people, Heinrich Heine, noted how most Germans were far more formed, mentally and spiritually, by a whole constellation of modern feelings disconnected from any Christian tradition or culture. Indeed, astute readers of Heine have hypothesized that this was precisely one major explanation for how such a monstrous evil could take place among such a large society of people (not all of whom were directly complicit, but enough of whom to enable it) — the loss of Christian ethos and its replacement by an amorphous nebula of “feelings” like anomie, ennui, depression, nihilism, addictive personalities, fascination for the occult and for the exotic “Oriental”, a transferral of divinization from God to immanent spheres like the State or the Ego or a Leader or an Ideology; and so forth. Combine this amorphous welter of psychocultural factors with a recent world war (One) and a terrible economic crisis, and you have a lit tinderbox.

    This description is not meant to eliminate the factor of Western antisemitism as relevant to the Holocaust; only to restore perspective and avoid blowing it out of proportion.

    Bielak also purveys the tired old deadbeat horse of “Hitler Pope”, when numerous scholarly studies (not the least of which that of Rabbi David G. Dalin who, along with J. Bottum edited a compendium of scholarly essays on the matter in 2004 — The Pius war: responses to the critics of Pius XII.

    Not only do the authors definitively refute that canard, they interestingly delve into the complex sociocultural phenomenon of the construction of the myth itself, which has spanned quite a few years now. It’s indicative of the hold PC MC has on Bielak, which he has in his anxiety and pain twisted and entwined around the branch of his anguish about antisemitism.

    Finally, Bielak does a grave injustice to the West by outrageously ignoring the Other Half of World War 2: How the healthy West, comprising far more than half of the diseased West, rallied around to expend its blood, sweat and tears in years of fighting to the death against those Nazis and Fascists (and Japanese fanatics who, by the way, had already mass-murdered millions of their own Asian neighbors). In Bielak’s mind, the West never won. He remains haunted by Hitler’s ghost, whom he seems sincerely to believe still rules the West, apparently.

  31. says

    Daniel: to put it bluntly, anti-semetism in Christianity is AGAINST The teachings of Christianity (as Lemon line pointed out). This blows apart the whole point of your verbose posts. I don’t think any Christian here is not actiknowleding the terrible things done in the name of Christianity, but as it’s been pointed out, it was done DISOBEYING CHRIST.

    I am a Christian, and I unequivacly support Isreal’s right to exist, and am abhorred by Western media and the UN’s treatment of Israel, in how they condemn her for having the “gall” to defend herself against genocidal racists.

    You listed a series of false narratives followed by Christians (which are, it seems mostly far leftists), but I don’t believe for a moment ANY of the regular posters here who agree with Mr. Spencer subscribe to any of those narratives. In fact, it seems it those who DISAGREE with Spencer who do.
    You are at best preaching to the choir, telling us we should disregard what we already do, or at worst you are a bigoted troll who insists to blame Christianity what is done in it’s name, despite being against it’s core teachings. Please stop this, it is disruptive, whether you mean it to or not.

    Then you say you’re “hurt” when people disagree with your false narrative that lumps all of Christianity together as being responsible for anti-semetism, using a fallacy of appeal to emotion! I’m hurt by your sweeping generalzations, so really where does using phrases like this leave us? Nowhere.

    I’m hoping you will have the grace to in your next post give an apology to the fellow Christians here who support Israel.

    Let’s not tear the movement of standing up against Jihadist Supremescism apart.

  32. says

    gravenimage,

    I appreciate your compassion and kindness toward the Jewish people.

    You wrote:

    You have friends and allies here, Daniel. Don’t push them away.

    Friends that would be pushed away by one’s telling facts about one’s own suffering, because it would offend their egos, are not true friends.

    If I have true friends here, then I am grateful to them and I thank them.

    Dan

    —-

    Davegreybeard,

    Haven’t called YOU dishonest, Dan – yet.

    Judge your own self. Judge your own actions.

    —-

    Foolster41:

    Daniel: to put it bluntly, anti-semetism in Christianity is AGAINST The teachings of Christianity (as Lemon line pointed out).

    The founders of what developed into what became, and what is now, the religion Christianity were Jewish, and there are tenets in the religion Christianity which express some “tolerance” toward the Jewish people, and there are tenets in the religion Christianity which express some sympathy toward the Jewish people.

    And, today, many Christians follow those tenets; and, today, many Christians feel sympathy toward the Jewish people.

    However:

    The religion Christianity is an offshoot of the ancestral religion of the Jewish people and includes tenets which contradict essential tenets of the ancestral religion of the Jewish people. Moreover, the religion Christianity includes tenets which declare that a certain Jewish man is the god of the religion Christianity, and that the god of the religion Christianity — that Jewish man — is the son of the god of the religion Christianity, and that the god of the religion Christianity is the god of the ancestral religion of the Jewish people, and that that god of the religion Christianity — that Jewish man — was killed as a result of efforts by certain Jewish people to kill him. Furthermore, the religion Christianity includes tenets which declare that Jewish people refused to accept the tenet of the religion Christianity that the Jewish man who the religion Christianity holds as being the god of the religion Christianity is the god of the ancestral religion is the god of the ancestral religion of the Jewish people; and the religion religion Christianity includes tenets which declare that in order to go to heaven one needs to believe that the Jewish man who the religion Christianity holds is the son of the creator-being god of the universe and who the religion Christianity holds is the creator-being god of the universe is the son of the creator-being god of the universe and is the creator-being god of the universe; and the religion religion Christianity includes tenets which declare that anyone who does not believe that the Jewish man who the religion Christianity holds is the son of the creator-being god of the universe and who the religion Christianity holds is the creator-being god of the universe is the son of the creator-being god of the universe and is the creator-being god of the universe will go to hell. And, in addition, there are tenets in the religion Christianity which hold the Jewish people, and the country of the Jewish people, as being a totem objects of the religion Christianity — tenets which declare that there will be a never-ending end-of-the-world time in which many of the Jewish people will have been killed, and in which all of the other Jewish people who will have not been killed will have converted to the religion Christianity, and in which the god of the religion Christianity — the Jewish man who the religion Christianity holds as being the god of the religion Christianity — will come to earth and will live in the country of the Jewish people, and will rule the country of the Jewish people, and with rule the earth.

    The religion Christianity is, therein, for each one of those reasons, and for all of those reasons, inherently anti-Jewish. To say otherwise is untrue. And to be an adherent of the religion Christianity and say that the religion Christianity is not anti-Jewish is also dishonest and conceited and condescending.

    Moreover,

    For the past two thousand years Christian European people continuously libeled the Jewish people, and repeatedly mass-murdered Jewish people, and continuously made and enforced persecutorial unjust laws against the Jewish people, and treated Jewish people, as a group, and individually, with contempt and intransigence.

    And, approximately seventy years ago, Christian European people and post-Christian culturally Christian-European people murdered approximately six million Jewish people in Europe.

    And today, many post-Christian culturally Christian-European people and many Christian culturally Christian-European people are libeling and vilifying and diplomatically attacking and therein mortally endangering the intendedly genocidally besieged, repeatedly militarily attacked, repeatedly terroristically attacked, newly-re-founded liberal democratic sole country of the Jewish people.

    This blows apart the whole point of your verbose posts.

    Apparently you missed the point of what I wrote in my previous comments.

    I’m hoping you will have the grace to in your next post give an apology to the fellow Christians here who support Israel.

    I hope that Christians will understand and graciously not be offended by anger expressed by Jewish people about the exceedingly harmful wrong actions that Christians have done toward the Jewish people throughout the past two thousand years and that post-Christian culturally Christian-European people and Christian culturally Christian-European people are doing toward the Jewish people today.

    I hope that Christians will feel compassion toward the pain and suffering that Jewish people have experienced and are experiencing as a result of the exceedingly harmful wrong actions that have been done toward them by Christians and by post-Christian culturally Christian-European people.

    I hope that Christians will understand and feel compassion for the maddening frustration and vexation and anguish experience by Jewish people as a result of the condescension and hypocrisy and intransigence and bigotry expressed toward them by culturally Christian-European Christians.

    I hope that Christians will recognize the conceit and hypocrisy and offensiveness and hurtfulness and wrongness of Christian people’s scolding Jewish people for stating facts about the exceedingly harmful wrong actions that Christians have done toward the Jewish people throughout the past two thousand years and for stating facts about exceedingly harmful wrong actions that post-Christian culturally Christian-European people and Christian culturally Christian-European people are currently doing toward the Jewish people.

    —-

    LemonLime,

    I address also to you, and, where it applies, re-address to you, what I have written in this comment, and what I have written in my previous comments on this post, and what I have written in my previous comments on other posts on this web site.

    —-

    Everyone:

    Again, the point is to stop the Western collusion with the Islamic supremacist political movement.

    The way to stop the Western collusion with the Islamic supremacist political movement is to tell crucial essential facts of the situation that Israel is in.

    And, again, one of the main factors of the Western collusion with the Islamic supremacist political movement is Jewish Stockholm syndrome. Jewish Stockholm syndrome can be bypassed by, and maybe can be dispelled by, non-Jewish people’s and Jewish people’s telling crucial essential facts of the situation that Israel is in.

    Crucial essential facts of the situation that Israel is in:

    It’s about Standing Up for the Human Rights of the Jewish People
    http://israel-thrives.blogspot.com/2012/12/its-about-standing-up-for-human-rights_17.html

    —-

    My previous comments on this post:

    One
    Two
    Three
    Four
    Five
    Six
    Seven
    Eight
    Nine
    Ten
    Eleven

  33. says

    Daniel: I’m just baffled (and sadened) by your further posts.

    I’m not sure why you put “tollerance in quotes. Are you saying that Christ and the desciples were not actually tollerant of Jews (who themselves were Jews)? This wouoldn’t make much sense to me.

    “However:” [long list] “The religion Christianity is, therein, for each one of those reasons, and for all of those reasons, inherently anti-Jewish. To say otherwise is untrue. And to be an adherent of the religion Christianity and say that the religion Christianity is not anti-Jewish is also dishonest and conceited and condescending.”

    The gist seems to be, that Christianity being a religion that is based on, and disagrees with some of the tenets of Judeism is “anti-Christian” this is foolish and false. This is like sayibng Mormonism is anti-Christian bigotry. I might say that Mormonism is not true, but it doesn’t follow that this makes it bigoted against Chrisitans! It seems then, no matter what in your view Christianity’s sin is in itself existing! That it claims to be based on Judiesm and believes that it is a new covenent, that makes it automaticly bigotry.

    I think your view of Chrisitanity in many respects is flawed and one sided (one might even say “anti-Christian”) view (for example your talk of “totem objects”).

    “For the past two thousand years Christian European people continuously libeled the Jewish people, and repeatedly mass-murdered Jewish people, and continuously made and enforced persecutorial unjust laws against the Jewish people, and treated Jewish people, as a group, and individually, with contempt and intransigence.”
    THIS IS NONSENSE. ONCE AGAIN, there is NOTHING in the new testiment to justify such behavior. This has been pointed out over and over, and so it speaks very little to either your intelligence or honesty that you keep making this argument.

    “Again, the point is to stop the Western collusion with the Islamic supremacist political movement.”
    I’ve Already said that at best your are preaching to the choir. As I said, I don’t think any opponents of Islam here are in any way in ” collusion with the Islamic supremacist political movement.”. As I pointed out, it is those who are the OPPONENTS of Mr. Spencer who do this! You are making enemies where there are none! Why claim this is a problem here when it clearly isn’t?

    I’ll be honest, and this point it seems you are behaving as a troll who won’t answer arguments but keeps repeating over and over. I pointed out how you were weaving a false narrative about Christians (conflating past Christian actions with Christianity itself), and are alianating Christians who are strong supporters of Isreal and are far from ” collusion with the Islamic supremacist political movement.”. Instead of answering these points you repeat more of the same nonsense. in fact, you are reminding me a bit too much of Americana, and I will respond the same way. I won’t respond unless you are willing to actually answer my posts instead of repeating, ad honim attacks and apeals to emotion.

    I still think you may mean well, but I think you are incredibly misguided, and it does break my heart.

  34. says

    “I hope that Christians will recognize the conceit and hypocrisy and offensiveness and hurtfulness and wrongness of Christian people’s scolding Jewish people for stating facts about the exceedingly harmful wrong actions that Christians have done toward the Jewish people throughout the past two thousand years and for stating facts about exceedingly harmful wrong actions that post-Christian culturally Christian-European people and Christian culturally Christian-European people are currently doing toward the Jewish people.”

    I don’t think anyone here did any such thing. No Christian here as far I as I can see is denying the past misdeeds done in the name of Christanity. What they are objecting to is the frankly BIGOTED notion that this past actions means de facto that Christianity is bigoted, or that there is any basis in Christianity for such actions. This is exactly the sorts of things I mean when I say you are speaking hurtful foolishness.

  35. says

    Bielak’s concerns are certainly worthwhile discussion points for another venue; but in terms of this venue, focused on the problem of Muslims and how their deadly fanaticism is endangering various peoples around the world, his concerns are distracting at best. Only neurotically obessed people are incapable of compartmentalizing topics on the basis of priority and relevance. Beliak seems to have a compartmentalization deficiency in this regard. I wouldn’t kick him out of the Big Tent, necessarily; but I would relegate him to the back table way over by the men’s room where he (and others who have problems with priorities) can staple brochures and lick envelopes for the Anti-Islam Movement until further notice.

  36. says

    Good post CGW.

    “The point was driven home that Jesus’ sacrifice was his choice and that the Jews’ role was strictly one of service to mankind in the matter. If you had more experience with/exposure to real Christian teaching and practice, as opposed to mere cultural Christianity, you would be aware of that.”

    Indeed, and this was taught in my protestant upbringing too, and I have never been to a church that teaches otherwise. The point has always been that it was PEOPLE who rejected Jesus who came to sacrifice himself of his own choice, and I don’t remember a single instance of emphasis on Jews rejecting Jesus.

  37. says

    For those puzzling over poster Daniel Bielak: I *also* remember him saying that he had full-blown OCD; and I think that the general style of his postings here since his first appearance does chime with that.

    If he does have a bad case of OCD, I can also see why he would have been attracted by Buddhism (he appears to identify himself as Jewish by ethnicity, Buddhist by conviction and practice).

  38. says

    “For those puzzling over poster Daniel Bielak: I *also* remember him saying that he had full-blown OCD; and I think that the general style of his postings here since his first appearance does chime with that.”

    **********

    OCD – really?

    I’m trying very hard not to be “insensitive” about this, but how does one have a rational discussion with the mentally handicapped?

    Particularly, when that “handicap” seems to generate ideas (Christians are responsible for the holocaust, etc. etc.) that are both pernicious and malevolent.

    I’m inclined to take Sweet Pea Danny B. at face value – which is, a troll, at best.

    But I’m willing to listen to others who would endeavor to convince me otherwise.

  39. says

    The first time I encountered Kenneth Rexroth, I was very impressed. It is typically assumed that if someone knows too much about practically everything, they may be dismissed as a “polyhistor”. At the other end of the spectrum, the compliment Renaissance Man may be glibly and liberally awarded where it is not deserved. I may not be literate enough to judge where Rexroth fits between these two bookends, but all I can say is that my instincts and my intellect felt richly nourished by his breadth of knowledge, and by his ability to summarize classics in beautiful and scintillating capsules, almost resembling miniature works of art in themselves.

    Classics Revisited, published between the years of 1965 and 1968, contains chapters on most of the works most people at least have heard of. He begins with the Epic of Gilgamesh, followed by Homer,

  40. says

    Uprooting Antisemitism Through Scholarship and Education, by Dr. Catherine Chatterley

    “…I believe there is good reason to be optimistic today. For the first time in over ten centuries we have youth who are not since birth indoctrinated by theological teachings inherently biased an hostile toward Judaism and the Jewish people. …However, I must tell you equally important bad news. Based upon a decade of experience teaching university students, many of whom are not Jewish, I can tell you that while the dominant Christian stereotypes [against the Jewish people] of previous generations are diffused in power, the economic mythology and conspiratorial views are gaining ground. These antisemitic tropes are well-established Western myths too, but they are now re-activated in relation to the Jewish state. In other words, all of this supposed Jewish control and manipulation is done in the service of Israel. …The question must be asked: What other people is accused of killing God, working against the interests of common humanity generation after generation, of running a world-wide conspiracy to control and then destroy the planet, of starting and financing wars today and in the past, of controlling world financial institutions and the international markets? …Are Aboriginal peoples accused of these things? Africans? Americans of African decent? The Chinese? Indians? The Roma? The Scotts? Arabs? Persians? No. The truth is that no other people are accused of these things. No other people in history has been perceived to have this kind of cosmic power, this need for world control, and this degree of bad faith and evil intention. Why? Why is this the case? Why the Jewish people? For an explanation we must look to history. For millennia the Jewish people have faced hostility toward their unique tradition of ethnical monotheism, with its elaborate structure of six hundred fifteen laws, and all sorts of proscriptions designed to promote good behavior. Judaism is a religious tradition that has often been at odds with its surrounding environment, as Jews have for most of their history lived under foreign rule in their own land or as a minority in other lands. Many forms of anti-Jewish hostility have existed in antiquity, and Bible tells us that this hostility led to war and even genocidal violence. In the history of the Islamic world, hostility against Jews and Judaism led to periodic violence and to a permanent second-class status in all Muslim societies. Dictated by Shariah law, this dhimmi status was also shared with Christians. Both were non-Muslim subjects of Muslim state. Antisemitism, by contrast, is a non-common form of hostility, or even hatred, or a form of racism the way people think it is. It is a unique complex millennial phenomenon that few people actually understand. Antisemitism is the specific product of the rancorous divorce between Judaism and the Jesus movement of the first century which evolves into what we know as Christianity. The impetus of antisemitism is theological. That is it’s uniqueness and strength. The character of ‘The Jew’, which I place in quotation marks to distinguish this character from real existing Jews, is a fiction produced by theology and augmented by European mythologies that grow out of this same theological tradition. The accusations of ‘the Blood Libel’ and ‘Host Desecration’ are two examples. In theocratic societies, like those of pre-modern Europe, theology affects every aspect of life. The rigid conceptualization of Jews as a deicide people, those who rejected and killed Christ, led to the systematic exclusion of Jews as a collectivity from mainstream Christian society, to their deep and abiding marginalization, eventual demonization, and to their uniquely peculiar positioning in Western societies as middlemen associated with the despised money occupation. Few people realize this is [in the history of the Jewish people] completely unique to Europe. What we see in the history of antisemitism is a compounding of stigmatization and hatred, which over time results in the production of a composite character that integrates religious and economic themes in a powerfully reinforcing manner. As my second book illustrates, the theology of the Church and its teachings of contempt for Jews and Judaism resulted in the construction of what I term ‘the antisemitic imagination’ during the period of the high Middle Ages (which is approximately 1000 to 1300 CE) — a phenomena that continues to evolve over centuries and remains with us today. …”

    “…It is during these specific centuries [between 1000 to 1300 CE] that antisemitism becomes a popular mass phenomenon. And the character of ‘the Jew’…enters the collective imagination of Christian Europe. This vivid image-obsessed imagination was Catholic, and it was fed incessantly, both visually and aurally, through painting, sculpture, woodcuts, reliefs on buildings, passion plays, religious holiday services, stories, sermons, liturgy, folk tales, hymns, and songs. This medieval Christian imagination had a character at its center that appeared to have the power and determination to control the world, to manipulate and control rulers, and to influence events thereby wreaking other in society. That character, that figment the European imagination was ‘the Jew’. For Europeans, he was the tormenter and killer of Christ (the savior of universal humanity according to Christian theology) who continued until the end of time to work against the Church, its Gospel, and its congregations; he was the ritual murderer and host desecrator who compulsively reenacted the Crucifixion through these homicidal Jewish rituals; the well poisoner and the magician — both of whom were in league with Satan in a war against the Church (remember John’s Gospel in which Jesus himself is purported to say that the Jews are the children of the Devil); and, of course, ‘the Jew’ is a usurer, who recalled Judas Iscariot, the tax collector and archetypal traitor who betrayed his friend Jesus for a kiss and sold him up the temple authorities for thirty pieces of silver. It is this caricature of ‘the Jew’ that fueled the antisemitic imagination, and it is, by the appearance of this character, that we know that we are in the presence of antisemitism in more common forms of xenophobia and, quote, ‘hostility’. This character that Europe produces in the twelfth century and begins to export in the sixteenth is remarkable consistent across time and space. Regardless of European region and religious denomination, language, or nationality, the general characteristics and qualities attributed to ‘the Jew’ are static an monotonous. He is conspiratorial, manipulative, dishonest, vengeful, hateful, unrelentingly cruel and unforgiving; he is arrogant, blind to the truth, corrupted (especially by money and power), treasonous, traitorous, criminal, and, at bottom, motivated by evil.…”

    “…I remember being around nineteen years old and marching into the pastor’s office demanding to know how could he not have revealed the fact that Luther was one of the most vicious antisemites in history when I had spent two years in Conformational classes with him every Tuesday night at the age of thirteen. What an enormous betrayal this was for me. He was embarrassed. …”

    “…I believe interfaith work can be productive between Christians and Jews. But it must be honest and principled and based upon a solid knowledge of the history of antisemitism and the Holocaust. And it must acknowledge the culpability of the Church and its anti-Judaic theology in unleashing both. Christians engaging in this reparative work must avoid facile references to the Golden Rule, which are offensive however well-intentioned. Instead we need to face and bear the terrible, difficult, and uncomfortable truth at the heart of the Jewish/Christian relationship. The sad fact of the matter is that the Holocaust would not have occurred were it not for twenty centuries of Christian antisemitic conditioning. That is a fact that Jews have been able historically to state publicly and are still reluctant to do, which is understandalble. But I don’t have those same reservations. Why would I? I have an intimate understanding of the tradition that created this phenomenanon, having been raised within it and infused by it. Because of my grandmother and my parents I have a deep and abiding respect for Christian ethics and ideals, the roots of which are of course found in Judaism. …”

    http://vimeo.com/45200603

    —-

    LemonLime, and everyone else,

    Ask people (Western people) around you who think that Islam and Muslims are being maligned and that the U.S. is oppressing Muslims about what they think about these things and why it is they think that the U.S. is oppressing Muslims. Talk to them about these things. Probe them about it. I’m pretty sure that they’ll start talking about “Zionists”, or “the Israel Lobby”, or “Neo-Cons” (code word for what such people think of as being “Right-Wing Zionist American Jews”). Or they’ll start talking about “Right-Wing Christians”. Probe them about that. I’m pretty sure that they’ll start taking about “Zionists”, or “the Israel Lobby”, or “Neo-Cons”.

    Anti-Jewish bigotry, in the West, including in the U.S., is the crucial factor (in addition to Jewish Stockholm syndrome — which is enabling Western anti-Jewish bigotry) of why the West is colluding with the Islamic supremacist political movement. That anti-Jewish bigotry is being propagated by lies (verbal and visual, subtle and gross) about Israel (by Western journalists, the members of Western governments, Western academics, Western contemporary so-called “Human Rights” organizations, etc.), and is now being manifested as bigotry against Israel and against non-Israeli Jewish people perceived as supporting Israel.

    As I have expressed before, the false narrative that is being believed and propagated in the West by Westerners is:

    – “the Jews are persecuting ‘The Palestinians’ and stole the land of the ‘The Palestinians’

    – “the Jews are evil and powerful

    – “‘The Palestinians’ are being persecuted by the Jews, so ‘The Palestinians’ are the victims of the Jews, so ‘The Palestinians’ are noble and weak, and ‘The Palestinians’ are the Muslims, so the Muslims are noble and weak

    – “The U.S. government is supporting the Jews’ persecuting of the ‘The Palestinians'; The U.S. government is supporting the Jews’ persecuting of the Muslims

    – “American ‘Right-Wing’ Christians are supporting the Jews’ persecuting of the ‘The Palestinians'; American ‘Right-Wing’ Christians are supporting the Jews’ persecuting of the Muslims

    – “The Jews control the media

    – “The Jews control the foreign policy of the U.S. government

    – “The Jews are obfuscating their persecution of the Muslims and are libeling the Muslims

    – “The Muslims are justifiably angry about their being persecuted by the Jews, and are justifiably angry that the U.S. government is supporting the Jews’ persecution of them

    – “We need to show the Muslims that we support them, so that they won’t be angry at us.” / “We need to support the Muslims against the evil powerful Jews.

    You yourself and most of the other (Western/American) people who don’t harbor malice toward the Jewish people and who support Israel (and who, in general, are “Conservative”, and who in general are devout Christians who follow the particular tenets of Christianity which are conducive to being sympathetic to Jewish people and to the existence of Israel) aren’t aware of how other Westerners/Americans feel and think about these issues.

    The reason that what is now the Western bigotry against Israel and Jewish people being perceived as supporting Israel has been able to have been cultivated and to have been able to have grown is because of the fertile ground for that bigotry in the West.

    And, LemonLime, even you, who, like everyone else here who responded to me, don’t feel malice toward the Jewish people and who, like everyone else here who responded to me, supports Israel, dismissed what I wrote about this and urged for me to be marginalized.

    And, Westerns Christians here who have responded to me have refused to believe the facts that I wrote about the history of Christianity and Europe and the Jewish people — facts which are part of my heritage — my experience — and which are facts that are well-documented and known.

    The Western devout Christian sympathy towards the Jewish people in as much as it exists today — and, of course, I realize that today it exists among relatively many Western devout Christians — is a relatively new phenomenon. Western devout Christians today who have that sympathy towards the Jewish people and towards Israel have grown up with that sympathy — in their cultural environment: their churches, and their families, etc. — so they think that’s the way it has always been. Or they think that it has been this way for a long time. It has not always been this way, and it is not a long time that it has been this way.

    You’re, of course, aware of the threat that is the equivalent of what was, in the 1930’s, the Nazi threat. But you’re not aware of the factor that is the equivalent of what was, in the 1930’s, the Western anti-Jewish bigotry in Western countries, including the United States of America, which caused the West, including the United States of America, to appease, and support, and enable, the Nazi regime of Germany.

    Just seventy years ago the Western world, as a whole, in some cases allowed to be murdered, and in other cases murdered, six million Jewish people.

    And, among Christian Europeans, it was mainly only some very few devout Christians who, largely for religious Christian reasons, protected and rescued some Jewish people. Just as now, among Western people, it is mainly only certain devout Christians who are supporting Israel. However, now, there are many more devout Christians who are supporting Israel than there were devout Christians who protected and rescued Jewish people during the Shoah.

    Right now the newly-re-founded liberal democratic sole nation of the Jewish people is under intendedly genocidal siege and is being libeled and diplomatically attacked and mortally endangered by the West — Western governments, Western journalists, Western academics, Western political activists, etc. — a campaign by the West which is part of the intendedly genocidal siege against the nation of the Jewish people.

    And, look at how, even though you feel that you are supporting Israel, you treated me for stating basic essential facts of the situation that Jewish people have been in in the West in my defending the Jewish people — my people. Some of you accused me lying. Some of you called me misguided. One of you called me “neurotically obsessed” and explicitly advocated for me to be marginalized. Another one of you viciously verbally attacked me, and even denied basic essential facts of the Shoah, and then ridiculed me, and then accused me of being a Jihadi.

    Would you deny, for example, Coptic Christian’s accounts of their persecution by Muslims in Muslim Egypt? I think that you would not.

    Why have you denied my accounts of my people’s persecution by Christian Europeans in Christian Europe?

    I hope that the talk by Dr. Catherine Chatterley which I listed and quoted excerpts from at the beginning of this comment may enlighten you as to why you have done so.

    —-

    Constantine’s Sword: The Church and the Jews, A History
    http://www.amazon.com/Constantines-Sword-Church-Jews-History/dp/0618219080

    —-

    BTW: Here are just some few examples physical events of the Christian persecution of Jewish people in Europe:

    – “4th century – Following Emperor Constantine’s Council of Nicaea (325), all sorts of imperial measures against the Jews, special taxes, prohibition on new synagogues, and prohibition of Christian-Jewish marriages. Church father Ambrose encourages burning of synagogues so as to abolish Judaism.”

    – “5th century – Atacks against Jewish communities during Holy Week, including the burning of synagogues.[00] A great massacre of Jews in Alexandria.”

    “[There is a relative pause in anti-Jewish attacks, and relative tolerance toward Jews, due to the collapse of the political structure of the Roman Empire. Once the German aristocracies that conquered Europe converted to Catholicism, and the empire was reconstituted as the Germanic Holy Roman Empire of the Middle Ages, the attacks are renewed.]”

    – “11th century – Crusaders massacre Jewish communities in the Rhineland.”
    – “12th century – Crusaders massacre Jews in Europe; persecution in Spain.”
    – “Fourth Lateran Council 1215 has several anti-Jewish rules, e.g. the wearing of the yellow role”
    – “Expulsion of the Jews from England 1290, Spain 1492″
    – “13th century – Forced conversions of Jews all over Europe.”
    – “Protestant anti-Judaism: Martin Luther 1543 “The Jews and their lies”, therefore Jews do not work, they prefer leisure time, suggesting to set a blaze on synagogues etc.”
    – “14th century – Black Plague is blamed on Jews. Perhaps three hundred Jewish communities are wiped out. Jews in the Rhineland are exterminated. Jews in Seville are massacred, followed by widespread pogroms in Iberia.”
    – “15th century – Spanish inquisition. Many Jews are killed. More than 150,000 are expelled from Spain.”
    – “16th century – Inquisition becomes pan-European phenomenon.”
    – “17th century – Inquisition continues.”

    —-

    And, a crucially important talk about the current situation:

    “What is Antisemitism and How Does It Affect the Conflict?”, by Dr. Catherine Chatterley, University of Winnipeg, Middle East Week, March 2013
    http://vimeo.com/61949203

    —-

    And, again, the main point:

    To stop the Western collusion with the Islamic supremacist political movement what needs to be done is to tell facts of the history and current reality of the situation that Israel is in.

  41. says

    well, it seems Daniel is once again repeating what he already wrote in his long post, telling us what we already know (that there are Christians who generally are lefists who apologize for Islam who harbor anti-semetism). Again we must ask, What is Daniel’s real motive for doing this? Is he really concerned about Christian anti-semetism? If so, then if he actknowledges that Christian anti-jihadists here are not anti-semetic, why is he wasting his time?

    “And, LemonLime, even you, who, like everyone else here who responded to me, don’t feel malice toward the Jewish people and who, like everyone else here who responded to me, supports Israel, dismissed what I wrote about this and urged for me to be marginalized.”

    Nonsense. We answered with reasonable objections (your large brush strokes against all Chrisitans based on the actions of the few, that your claim that Chrisitanity is inately anti-semetic (which disobeys the core of Christianity), and poor understnading of Christianity. I see no response to these points. Instead of answering these points or conceding, you claim victemhood, claiming we are “dismissing” and “marginalizing” you!

    “And, Westerns Christians here who have responded to me have refused to believe the facts that I wrote about the history of Christianity and Europe and the Jewish people — facts which are part of my heritage — my experience — and which are facts that are well-documented and known.”

    This is an outright lie. I acknowledged the history of Christians being anti-semites. In fact, I said (and I still believe) that no one else here is denying this. Why would an honest person make this claim?

    I objected (as others did) to your broad brush strokes of claiming all of Christianity is anti-semetic, or that Christianity is innately anti-semetic. You havn’t shown ANY proof that this is so (such as anti-semetic teachings in the New Testament) because you can’t. It doesn’t exist.

    “BTW: Here are just some few examples physical events of the Christian persecution of Jewish people in Europe:”
    more copy and paste of stuff we already know.

    I suspect from how Daniel acts in ignoring arguments and throwing mud isn’t anti-semetism, but trying to divide the anti-jihadist movement apart. I could be wrong, but either way Daniel is an impostor sabetuer or a bigot. I’ll be treating him the same as Americana, ignoring but answering indirectly so people aren’t fooled.

  42. says

    Since Daniel Bielak seems unwilling to listen to people’s actual arguments and keeps repeating the same arguments and ad honims, I messaged Mr. Spencer. Maybe he can resolve this one way or the other. Hopefully he can talk some sense into Mr. Bielak.

  43. says

    “I objected (as others did) to your broad brush strokes of claiming all of Christianity is anti-semetic, or that Christianity is innately anti-semetic. You haven’t shown ANY proof that this is so (such as anti-semetic teachings in the New Testament) because you can’t. It doesn’t exist.”

    I wrote this confusingly. I mean to say, not that Christians being anti-semites don’t exist (since I actknowledge this), but I mean anti-semetism in the New Testament is the thing that doesn’t exist.

  44. says

    Sweet Pea Danny B is a TROLL.

    And yep, Sweet Pea, that means by definition you are dishonest.

    In other words, a fraud, a phoney, a shister and generally, a pain in the ass.

  45. says

    It was wrong of me to post anything here.

    I was, in turns, wrongfully acquiescent and wrongfully harsh. And just inappropriate in general.

    Everyone just does what they do, and everyone experiences the results of their own actions.

    I apologize if I hurt anyone’s feelings.

    Everyone just wants to be happy and to not suffer.

    —-

    But I just have to say:

    Foolster41,

    You have completely misunderstood me.

    And what you wrote in response to my comment is wrong.

    But I realize that you just want to be happy and to not suffer.

    May you be happy and free from suffering.

    —-

    Same with you, Davegreybeard.

    And note: the word “shister” (shyster) you used is based on the archetypal culturally Christian-European anti-Jewish fictional Jewish character “Shylock”.

    —-

    And just to make a typo correction:

    I wrote:

    “accused me lying”

    which should be:

    “accused me of lying”

    —-

    And just to make a transcription correction:

    “It is this caricature of ‘the Jew’ that fueled the antisemitic imagination, and it is, by the appearance of this character, that we know that we are in the presence of antisemitism and not in more common form of xenophobia or hostility.”

    —-

    And to finish a transcription which I cut short:

    “Because of my grandmother and my parents I have a deep and abiding respect for Christian ethics and ideals, the roots of which are of course found in Judaism. This is precisely why I believe the millennial betrayal of these ethics over and over again in relation to the Jewish people is a tragedy of epic proportions and why I take this all so seriously.”

    —-

    But,

    Everyone just wants to be happy and to not suffer.

    May everyone be free from suffering.

  46. says

    Little too slick for your garden variety Jihadi TROLL.

    Nazi TROLL?

    Far Lefty TROLL?

    Obama Homeland Security TROLL?

    We seem to be afflicted with a swarm of TROLLS these days.

  47. says

    I don’t believe that Daniel Bielak is any sort of troll, or that he has any sort of underhanded agenda here. I do believe, though, that he is so obsessed with the ugly history of antisemitism that he is now pretty much unable to see who is an ally of the Jewish people, and who is their enemy.

    And that *is* sad.

    Most Americans”both Christians an non-Christians”strongly support Israel.

    And we here at Jihad Watch will continue to support Israel and the Jewish people against the threat of Jihad”that won’t change. I just hope Daniel comes to truly see that some day.

  48. says

    I have gone to Dan’s web site.

    I should have done this sooner.

    I agree with you Graven, Dan does not appear to be a troll.

    And I see none of the anti-Christian diatribe there that we have recently been subjected to.

    So, why does a man come to a blog, and emphatically and repeatedly accuse all nominally “Christians” of being complicit in one of the most horrific and repugnant crimes in recent human history?

    AND why, is such a man “surprised” and “hurt” when he is responded to by those so accused with their full throated anger and outrage at being so slandered?

    “Tis a mystery for sure.

    And I agree with you Foolster, apologies don’t get it, the man must change his behavior and knock off the Christian bashing.

  49. says

    LemonLime,

    “…When I tried, in ’95 and ’96 and ’97 to alert many of my foreign colleagues to the fact that Arafat was stealing the money, back then, in the financial corruption, and that the [‘Palestinian’ Arabs] are complaining about this, many of my American, Canadian, European, colleagues, asked me back then if I were on the payroll of ‘The Jewish Lobby’. They asked me: ‘Did Jews pay you money to say that Arafat is corrupt and bad?’. I told them: ‘No, Sir. Jews did not pay me money. Where is this ‘Jewish Lobby’ you guys are talking about? Maybe I’ll just go work for them. It might pay me more than the newspapers.’ …”

    Khaled Abu Toameh, (http://vimeo.com/9922016; at the time of the writing of this comment, this video of this talk has since been removed); However, another talk by Khaled Abu Toameh also in which he expresses this: RETHINKING THE END GAME (Part 6) Improving Lives in The Middle East

    —-

    “The concept of the ‘evil Jew’ has made a well-disguised comeback: Criticizing Israel and Zionists, is now deemed a legitimate option to cursing Jews and Judaism. Not only is it open, socially acceptable and legal, but it can actually bring prosperity and popularity. This new form of anti-Semitism 2.0 is well-covered-up, harder to trace and poses a much deeper danger to the modern way of life of the civilized world than the earlier crude form of it, as it slowly and gradually works on delegitimizing Jews to the point where it eventually becomes acceptable to target Jews, first verbally, then physically — all done in a cosmopolitan style where the anti-Semites are well-groomed speakers and headline writers in jackets and ties; and not just Arab, but American and European, from ‘sanitized’ news coverage of the most bloodthirsty radicals, to charges against Israel in which facts are distorted, selectively omitted or simply untrue, as in former President Jimmy Carter’s book on Israel.

    “Why would a Palestinian* be writing this? The answer is simple: The Palestinians have been used as fuel for the new form of anti-Semitism; this has hurt the Palestinians and exposed them to unprecedented and purposely media-ignored abuse by Arab governments, including some of those who claim love for the Palestinians, yet in fact only bear hatred to Jews. This has resulted in Palestinian cries for justice, equality, freedom and even basic human rights being ignored while the world getting consumed with delegitimizing Israel from either ignorance or malice.

    “Worse, just as the old form of anti-Semitism has proven itself a threat as poisonous to its supporters, as it was to the Jews, the new form of anti-Semitism 2.0 could prove itself the same — all the more likely as we see the world tolerating Iran’s nuclear ambitions not necessarily out of love for the Mullah’s regime, but instead because of mental fixation against Israel.

    “Such bias against Israel cannot be ‘accidental’ or merely ‘unfortunate.’ No other nation has received the amount of scrutinizing, criticism, coverage, demonization and delegitimization. In fact the question to be asked is not whether there is bias against Israel; but rather why there is bias against Israel? …”

    Mudar Zahran

    —-

    “This malevolent portrayal of the IDF is carefully and systematically planned, cultivated, developed, expanded, and relentlessly driven forward. It is the key part of what amounts to nothing less than a pernicious, and increasingly dangerous, global conspiracy of propaganda aimed at the total delegitimization of the state of Israel – a conspiracy that has, so far, exceeded, in its international scope, anything dreamt of even by that master of propaganda, Dr. Joseph Goebbels himself – spreading the idea that Israel is so evil that it has no right to exist – aiming for the point where that idea becomes an acceptable mainstream argument in our Western societies.

    “It is no surprise, of course, that such a campaign has great popularity in the Arab, and the wider, world, anymore than Goebbels’ twisted propaganda machine succeeded in persuading so many Germans to his murderous cause. But what is truly shocking is the traction that this propaganda has gained in the West, among student bodies, teachers, university authorities, academics, think tanks, human rights organizations, aid agencies, parliamentary bodies, and, perhaps most damaging of all, the mass media. …”

    — Former British Colonel Richard Kemp

    —-

    LemonLime, it’s not “conspiracy theory” when it is simply the expressing of what is the case. The fact that even you, even at this time, haven’t seen this situation that the Jewish people are in (and have always been in in the West for the past two thousand years) is indicative of, and part of, the situation that the Jewish people are in.

    —-

    gravenimage,

    You wrote:

    “most Americans”both Christians an non-Christians”strongly support Israel.”

    I hope so. I don’t know whether or not most Americans strongly support Israel, but I know that many Americans support Israel. And I appreciate that support. But I know also that many Americans believe lies which vilify Israel and which obfuscate the nature and history and reality of Fatah-PLO and the ‘Palestinian movement’.

    However, and moreover, I know that most Americans would strongly support Israel, and would oppose Fatah-PLO (and, of course, Hamas), if they knew the facts of the history and current reality of the situation that Israel is in — most importantly including the facts of the history and nature and actions and reality of Fatah-PLO (and Hamas).

    It’s not most Americans (and especially not most American Christians) who I’ve been mainly referring to in reference to extreme degrees of Western (culturally Christian-European) anti-Jewish bigotry. It’s not most Americans who have been propagating the libels that have been propagated against Israel. It’s Western “elites” (including Jewish Western “elites”) who have most propagated, and who have most influentially propagated, the libels that have been propagated against Israel. Those Western people who have propagated those libels against Israel have done so out of Western anti-Jewish bigotry (and out of Jewish Stockholm syndrome in the case of Jewish Western “elites”).

    And the libels that have been propagated against Israel have been believed by very many Western people — including many American people — because of Western anti-Jewish bigotry (normal, culturally ingrained, Western anti-Jewish bigotry). But the telling of the history and current reality of the situation that Israel is in would dispel the belief in those lies among most American people — and would stop the American — and thereby Western — collusion with the Islamic supremacist political movement.

    That’s the point.

    —-

    By the way:

    The Fatah Constitution (http://www.mythsandfacts.org/Conflict/statute-treaties/fateh_constitution.htm):

    Article 19: Armed struggle is a strategy and not a tactic and the Palestinian Arab people’s armed revolution is a decisive factor in the liberation fight and in uprooting the Zionist existence, and this struggle will not cease unless the Zionist state is demolished and Palestine is completely liberated.”

    —-

    Note: * “Palestinian”: ‘Palestinian’ Arab

  50. says

    Interesting thread. I too believe that Daniel egregiously stated what he truly believes unfortunately, that Christianity is at the root of anti-Semitism. Of course he has factual historical occurences to support his assertion, but many examples he used were just plain wrong.

    He also has no Christian doctrine to support his assertions, and he inexplicably ignores the preponderance of direct anti-Semitic sentiment contained in the Islamic doctrine.

    Most importantly, Daniel who laments over this “western collusion” which aids the Islamic supremist movement against Israel, fails to properly attribute amongst its components, Jews themselves, while trying to pass it off as not only a Christian phenomenon, but part of the Christian dogma.

    That is not only patently false, it is also reprehensible at the core. For every Jewish critic of Islam, I’ll name you five that are intrinsic in this “western collusion”. Anti-Israel sentiment in a product of modern liberalism, promoted and indoctrinated in the hallways and classrooms of liberal American and European academia.

    Period.

  51. says

    Davegreybeard wrote:

    “And I agree with you Foolster, apologies don’t get it, the man must change his behavior and knock off the Christian bashing.”

    Great point, Davegreybeard. I completely agree with Foolster41, as well.

    What stands out most to me is that Daniel has a major chip on his shoulder against Christians, and he seems to want to argue simply for the sake of a arguing; and I didn’t find anything from his point of view that I gained from–so no hearty food-4-thought for me here.

    Also, Daniel can be very polite while he’s bashing Christians though–which is very disingenuous.

  52. says

    It’s disappointing to me that Christians here who have responded to what I have said have responded to what I have said in the way that they have responded to what I have said. It’s disappointing to me that Christians here who have responded to what I have said have not understood what I have tried to communicate.

    And I have felt badly for writing things that I have felt may have been wrong for me to write — even though those things are true. So I have apologized for writing those things. And I have felt badly for what I have felt may have been my hurting the feelings of others — others such as gravenimage whose kindness and support for Israel and the Jewish people have been a support to me. So I have apologized for what may have been my hurting the feelings of others.

  53. says

    And re what awake wrote that “Anti-Israel sentiment in a product of modern liberalism, promoted and indoctrinated in the hallways and classrooms of liberal American and European academia.”:

    “…Today, by any reasonable standard, Israel remains a beacon of liberalism in an illiberal region. Moreover, on any genuine political compass, Jews and Israel are the true north of liberalism, not simply on account of the way they are constituted as a people, but also because of the anti-liberal forces ranged against them. Arab opponents of Israel themselves oppose liberal democracy and fear its freedoms. Anti-Semitism in all its forms ” Christian and Muslim, secular and religious, totalitarian and authoritarian ” is an anti-liberal movement, one that explicitly defines liberalism as a Jewish conspiracy. One would therefore expect the alignment of Israel with liberalism and anti-Zionism with anti-liberalism to win Israel the defense of all liberals. The standard-bearers of muscular liberalism, from the 19th-century novelist George Eliot to the late senator Henry ‘Scoop’ Jackson, have done just that, using defense of Jewish rights as a touchstone of liberal principles.

    “Yet here is the paradox: the fiercer anti-Semitism grows, the more it forces a choice on liberals. The choice is between protecting the Jews and protecting the orthodox liberal belief in rational compromise, world peace, ‘getting to yes,’ and all the rest. Protecting the Jews requires confronting hostility that is not subject to rational persuasion, does not obey the liberal version of the rule of law, does not abide by liberal ideas of fairness, and does not extend peace and goodwill to others. To side with Israel, therefore, leaves one exposed to the same hostility that assails the Jews ” an uncomfortable position for individuals and governments alike. The dictates of self-interest persuade some to ignore aggression that presumably doesn’t concern them, and then to justify their callousness by holding Jews responsible for the aggression against them. Some Jews try to demonstrate their own innocence by dissociating themselves from those of their fellow Jews who are under attack.

    “The politics of anti-Semitism strikes again: blaming the Jews succeeds by persuading liberals that it is aimed only at the ‘culpable’ Jews. By casting these Jews as aggressors, it invites liberals to join the attack on them, on behalf of the Jews’ alleged victims. It congratulates liberals for joining the anti-liberal side by persuading them that they stand with the weak against the strong. …”

    — Ruth R. Wisse, “The Anti-Semite’s Pointed Finger.”

  54. says

    Aww, Daniels’ “Disapointed” now by how people are reacting to Daniel’s untruths. Poor poor Daniel.

    “even though those things are true.”
    Notice how he keeps claiming the false things he says are true, ignoring of course the MANY times people have objected that what he is saying is untrue (claim that Christianity is inately anti-semetic, the false conflation of acts that disobey Christianity with Christianity being anti-semetic) and how he hasn’t actually met any of those challenges (showing clearly how the NT is actually anti-semetic beyond the fallacy of saying it’s based on Christianity, which I’ve already answered how silly that argument is)

    He apollogizes for “hurt feelings”, but won’t back up the claims he makes about Christianity. In fact, this is a false apollogy (“I’m sorry YOU are insulted” isn’t apology for your actions, it’s a backhanded insult)

    He also doesn’t seem to understand how obnixious it is to repeat over and over things he says that we’ve REPEATEDLY said we actknowledge and OPPOSE, such as the western left’s agression towards Isreal and lies about Isreal. Why keep repeating it over and over, as if we don’t acknowledge and oppose it?

  55. says

    That is, it is “based on Judeism” is what I meant to say.

    It is a paradox. Daniel claims to have apollogized for his words, but insists they are true (thus again, what is he apollogizing for?). Daniel once again is using double-speak+good with a good dose of appeals to emotion to convince people to lie down and accept anti-Christian slander.

  56. says

    Foolster41:

    You wrote:

    Aww, Daniels’ ‘Disapointed’ now by how people are reacting to Daniel’s untruths. Poor poor Daniel.

    Notice how he keeps claiming the false things he says are true, ignoring of course the MANY times people have objected that what he is saying is untrue (claim that Christianity is inately anti-semetic) and how he hasn’t actually met any of those challenges (showing clearly how the NT is actually anti-semetic beyond the fallacy of saying it’s based on Christianity, which I’ve already answered how silly that argument is)

    I stated facts, including listing essential tenets of Christianity, explaining what I meant in my expressing that Christianity is inherently anti-Jewish.

    Furthermore, and moreover,

    For throughout the past two thousand years, adherents of Christianity, in general, in following what they viewed as being the tenets of Christianity, viewed the Jewish people as being inherently evil, and continuously persecuted the Jewish people — continuously libeled the Jewish people, repeatedly mass-murdered Jewish people, continuously excluded Jewish people from mainstream European society, and continuously made and enforced persecutorial unjust laws against the Jewish people.

    You have, in essence, expressed belief that Christians can be referred to as being members of the social group called Christians only when you deem them to be behaving according to the way that you view as being what Christianity expresses is the right way to behave, and that the Christians who persecuted the Jewish people for the past two thousand years — Christian Europeans in general for the past two thousand years, who were the majority of Christians in the world throughout the past two thousand years — cannot be referred to as being members of the social group called Christians, and that Christians today (the mainline Protestant Christian Church, officials of the Catholic Christian Church, Eastern Orthodox Christian priests, etc.) who are libeling and endangering the Jewish people and the newly-re-founded nation of the Jewish people — cannot be referred to as being members of the social group called Christians. Your doing that is dishonest. And your responses to me, in general, have been malicious.

    He apollogizes for ‘hurt feelings’,

    In response to my stating facts in my expressing the situation that my own people have been in, and in my expressing the suffering of my own people — in my trying to communicate the situation that the Jewish people are in today, and in my trying to communicate my understanding of why the West is colluding with the Islamic supremacist political movement and how to stop the West’s colluding with the Islamic supremacist political movement, Christians (who, presumably, according to what they claim to be the religion that they adhere to, claim to be compassionate and claim to be self-critical) called me a “bigot”, and called me “hateful”, and said that I was lying; and one Christian here, Davegreybeard, said: “To suggest that Christians are somehow responsible for the Holocaust, is a slander of a magnitude that makes ‘The Protocols of The Elders of Zion’ pale in comparison. Why do you promulgate such hate?” — which is an untrue perverse malicious hurtful statement to which I responded by expressing basic facts.

    but won’t back up the claims he makes about Christianity

    I have stated, and cited, basic and well-documented facts of what has been the behavior of Christians in Europe, in general, continuously for over one thousand years toward the Jewish people. I have stated basic simple obvious facts about the tenets of Christianity which are bigoted and condescending toward the Jewish people and which are inherently conducive to the generation of the feeling of contempt and malice toward the Jewish people — feeling of contempt and malice that Christian European people, in general, for two thousand years, continuously expressed toward, and acted in toward, the Jewish people.

    And those facts are not the main point that I have been trying to communicate.

    And I have expressed those facts only in response to the denying by Christians here, on previous blog posts and on this blog post, and by non-Christian culturally Christian people here, on previous blog posts and on this blog post, the role that Western anti-Jewish bigotry is playing in the Western collusion with the Islamic supremacist political movement.

    And you, and other self-professed Christians here, while continuing to verbally attack me, have repeatedly ignored and overlooked the main point that I have been trying communicate.

    —-

    I think that my posting the comments that I posted here it may have been unbeneficial. I apologize if my posting the comments that I have posted here has been unbeneficial.

    However, I hope that Christians who have felt offended by what I wrote and Christians who verbally attacked me may understand what I wrote and may do what is beneficial — what is beneficial for everyone — what is beneficial for themselves and for others.

    But, again, I apologize if my posting the comments that I have posted here has been unbeneficial.

    However, I hope that what I wrote here in comments that I posted here may be beneficial.

  57. says

    Notice how once again, Daniel repeats himself (this time by linking thankfully rather than copy and pasting), but doesn’t actually confront the objections, namely that the contents of that post, pointed outm not just myself but another poster (Champ, I thinmk) that it is a terrible skewed view of Christianity. Why refute things when you can just repeat things over and over?!

    Some objections:
    -As I’ve said, that Christianity beleives it is a fulfilment of Judeism no more makes it “anti-semetic” then Mormonism is “anti-Chrisitan”
    -“which contradict essential tenets of the ancestral religion of the Jewish people”. Yes, that’s what off-shoot religions do. Otherwise, they’d beleive the same thing and not be off-shoots. This is a silly objection.
    -“was killed as a result of efforts by certain Jewish people to kill him.”. Emphisis on CERTAIN. There is NOWHERE in Christian doctrine of the New Testiment that blames all Jews.
    -“Christianity includes tenets which declare that in order to go to heaven one needs to believe that the Jewish man who the religion Christianity holds is the son of the creator-being god of the universe and who…” Yeah, it’s a run-on. But basicly Chrisitanity beleives it is the only true religion (shock!).
    -“and the country of the Jewish people, as being a totem objects of the religion Christianity” I’ve already objected to this. This is so vague as to be insulting. What does this even mean? In what way are Jews “totem objects”? Daniel sure doesn’t explain. It’s pretty amazing that you’d call this a “fact” when it is so vague.

    His analysis of Christianity isn’t based on quoting scholars, or even verses, it’s a clumsy summery that is vauge and biased, and yet Daniel wonders why people think he’s being dishonest!

    “For throughout the past two thousand years, adherents of Christianity, in general, in following what they viewed as being the tenets of Christianity,”
    Of course, Daniel can’t, when challanged provide actual doctrine for anti-semetism in Christianity (which on the face makes no sense since Christ and his disciples were Jews, and never denied or disavowed their Jewishness), so he uses weesel words like “in their view”, clearly showing he doens’t even believe what he’s saying! That it was “in their view” doesn’t make it actual tenets of Christianity!

    “You have, in essence, expressed belief that Christians can be referred to as being members of the social group called Christians only when you deem them to be behaving according to the way that you view as being what Christianity expresses is the right way to behave”
    Yes, and that view is called FOLLOWING CHRIST. It’s not some secret code, it’s pretty simple.

    I never said they couldn’t be refered to as Christian. However, their deeds cannot be said as being Christian, and their deeds cannot be logically blamed on all of Christianity. This is BASIC LOGIC.

    “Your doing that is dishonest. And your responses to me, in general, have been malicious.”
    But falsely blaming anti-semetism on a religous group not based on any actual tenet, using ad honim and apeals to emotion is completely honest! Riiiight.

    “which is an untrue perverse malicious hurtful statement to which I responded by expressing basic facts.”
    It’s another link to “Nazis were Chrisitans” but once again he cannot provide facts of what Tenets of Chrisitanity (like actual verses) that they were following. The fact is, Nazis were DISOBEYING Christ, not obeying him. It’s clear now that Daniel knows this and has no excuse, he is doing this on purpose.

    “I have stated, and cited, basic and well-documented facts of what has been the behavior of Christians in Europe,”

    Daniel knows full well I’m not disputing the facts he has presented already that Christians have done terrible things (I beleive I’ve said this about 4 times now), but I am refering to asking for actual tenets that would justify such actions (again and again). But it’s easier for Daniel to keep repeating irelevent facts he has, rather than pertinent facts he’s asked for. This is the pattern, and it’s quite tiring.

    “However, I hope that Christians who have felt offended by what I wrote and Christians who verbally attacked me may understand what I wrote and may do what is beneficial — what is beneficial for everyone — what is beneficial for themselves and for others.”

    More victem mongering. I not once attacked Daniel. I attacked what he was are saying. He made the claim that all of Christianity is anti-semetic, but refused again and again to show actual tenets (verses in the bible) to back this up, rather than one-sided surmations about Christianity.). When someone contenues to say false things (in this case, falsely connection actions by disobeyers of Christ with what Christianity, and passing off clumsy sumerations as “tenets” of Christianity)they are a liar. When someone contenues to say false things about a religion they are a bigot.

    Daniel once agains he “apollogizes” but doesn’t seem willing to actually look critically at what he’s saying, how false and distructive it is.

    “However, I hope that what I wrote here in comments that I posted here may be beneficial.”
    It’s not, and quite a few posters have shown you why, but you seem unwilling to listen.

  58. says

    By the way, Daniel might want to look up what a “strawman argument” is:

    “A straw man or straw person, also known in the UK as an Aunt Sally, is a type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent’s position” (Wikipedia)

    He keeps saying we’re denying the facts he’s presenting (that Christians do terrible things) when we are absolutely not, we are objecting to the conclusion s that it means Christianity itself is to blame, or that Christianity allows or promotes such things. Every time we point it out, he points back to the straw man of what we aren’t denying.

    That Daniel not only uses, but continues to use this argument once again illustrates who is being dishonest here.

  59. says

    Foolster41,

    You are continuing to not comprehend what I wrote. And you are continuing to not comprehend the main thing that I have been trying to communicate. And you are continuing to verbally attack me.

    What I wrote in the comments that I posted on this blog post and the facts that I listed in the comments that I posted on this blog post stand and are here for anyone to see.

    And, by the way, you wrote:

    The fact is, Nazis were DISOBEYING Christ, not obeying him.

    Yeah, and the millions of Christians who supported the Nazis were also “disobeying Christ” according to the paradigm that you hold.

    And Christian European people, in general, for the past approximately two thousand years were also “disobeying Christ” according to the paradigm that you hold.

    And the officials of the mainline Protestant Christian Church, and officials of the Catholic Christian Church, and Eastern Orthodox Christian priests, etc. who are libeling and diplomatically attacking the newly-re-founded sole nation of the Jewish people are also “disobeying Christ” according to the paradigm that you hold.

    What’s your point?

    And my main point was not and is not mainly about the tenets of Christianity. It is you and other Christians here who responded to me who have made this discussion be mainly about the tenets of Christianity (the main tenets of which are tenets that I listed after Christians here brought up the subject of the tenets of Christianity).

    You have been obfuscating the main point that I have been trying to communicate.

    I think that my posting the comments that I have posted here may have been unbeneficial. I apologize if my posting the comments that I have posted here has been unbeneficial.

    However, I hope that that I wrote in comments that I have posted here may be beneficial.

  60. says

    Ladies and gentlemen, I complain that Daniel isn’t actually reading my objections but repeating what I think are flawed presumptions, and using straw man arguments and apeals to emotions, and what does he do? He does all of them once again, like clockwork, once again proving my point!

    He also once again falsely claims I’m “verbally attacking” him from objecting to what he says. I not once called him a name (liar and bigot are not names, but labels which are fitting for reasons I’ve already stated), my posts are there for all to see. I admit I am getting frustrated, because I’ve asked for proof of his assertions (What ACTUAL Christian tenets, you know- from the bible rather than a flawed synopsis) support anti-semetism, but he keeps repeating the same rubbish over and over again and getting annoyed when I don’t accept it.

    “Yeah, and the millions of Christians who supported the Nazis were also “disobeying Christ” according to the paradigm that you hold.” … (other examples)

    YES. YES. YES AND YES. They were! I know you’be being sarcastic, but INDEED THEY WERE!

    Again it’s not one that I HOLD, but that held by CHRISTIANS WHO FOLLOW CHRIST. Again, Daniel is trying to make it out as if I’m trying to define myself what Christianity is, when I’m only using the BIBLE as a basis. IF YOU DON’T FOLLOW CHRIST YOU ARE NOT A CHRISTIAN. PERIOD.

    FOR THE MILLIONTH TIME DANIEL’S “LISTED TENETS ARE FLAWED!” I’ve already said why, but he haven’t said A SINGLE WORD how they are not flawed. He just keep repeating the same things over and over and over. GAH!

    He claims I’m “obfuscating” the main point he has been making. I’ve acknowledged his point over and over (so again, this is a lie): That westernerns (specificly far-leftists who are the OPPONENTS of the Anti-jihadists here) are in collusion with jihadists.

    If anyone is “obfuscating” it’s Daniel, since he seems to refuse to answer any of my points.

    Here it is plain and simple, maybe Daniel will get it this time (though he seems determined not to): Those who commit hate against Jews are NOT FOLLOWING THE TEACHINGS OF CHRIST. CHRISTIANS HAVE INDEED BEEN ANTI-SEMITES, but this was IN DIRECT VIOLATION OF THE BASIC TEACHINGS OF CHRIST.

  61. says

    Foolster41,

    You wrote:

    “Those who commit hate against Jews are NOT FOLLOWING THE TEACHINGS OF CHRIST. CHRISTIANS HAVE INDEED BEEN ANTI-SEMITES, but this was IN DIRECT VIOLATION OF THE BASIC TEACHINGS OF CHRIST.”

    I agree with that which you wrote.

    May you be well and happy.

  62. says

    Foolster41,

    And, by the way, you wrote:

    “Yeah, and the millions of Christians who supported the Nazis were also ‘disobeying Christ’ according to the paradigm that you hold.” … (other examples)

    “YES. YES. YES AND YES. They were! I know you’be being sarcastic, but INDEED THEY WERE!”

    I was not being sarcastic. That which I wrote I meant literally. Although I wrote “Yeah”, instead of “Yes”, because I was exasperated.

    I hope that you will understand what I have tried to communicate.

    I hope that you will understand me.

  63. says

    I appreciate the support given to Israel by Christians who, for ethical reasons, support Israel.

    However, the way that Christians here, such as Foolster41 and other Christians here, responded to me was harmful and wrong.

    One Christian here, davegreybeard, even denied the culpability of Christians in the committing of the Holocaust and viciously personally attacked me for stating basic facts of the experiences and suffering of my own people — the Jewish people.

    And, in response to Foolster41’s writing:

    Those who commit hate against Jews are NOT FOLLOWING THE TEACHINGS OF CHRIST. CHRISTIANS HAVE INDEED BEEN ANTI-SEMITES, but this was IN DIRECT VIOLATION OF THE BASIC TEACHINGS OF CHRIST.

    I wrote:

    I agree with that which you wrote.

    I wrote that because I was distraught and overwhelmed by the way that Foolster41 and other Christians here were responding to me.

    However, what I meant, and what I should have written, is that I agree that holding bigoted antipathetic views about the Jewish people and feeling malice toward the Jewish people is contrary to certain teachings that Jesus is said to have expressed, according to the religious texts of the religious Christianity.

    For over fifteen hundred years, Christians have blamed the Jewish people for the killing of Jesus. Blaming the Jewish people for the killing of Jesus is like blaming the Jewish people for the Holocaust because the Judenrat co-operated with the Nazis.

    Rome was occupying Judea, the country of the Jewish people, at the time that Jesus was killed. The Romans killed, by crucifixion, multitudes of Jewish people before and after the Romans killed, by crucifixion, Jesus — a Jewish man. And the Romans, in their occupying Judea at that time, would have been vetting and controlling the Jewish religious authorities in Judea at that time. And the Romans subsequently committed genocide against the Jewish people. The Romans mass-murdered hundreds of thousands of Jewish people and destroyed the country of the Jewish people. Subsequently, the Romans adopted and developed the religion Christianity — a religion which worshiped, as a god, one of the Jewish people that they — the Romans — killed, and which vilified the Jewish people as being cosmically evil.

    And then, for the next two thousand years, Christian European people viewed Jewish people as being inherently evil, and continuously libeled the Jewish people, and repeatedly mass-murdered Jewish people, and continuously made and enforced persecutorial unjust laws against the Jewish people, and continuously treated Jewish people with contempt and intransigence.

    And, approximately seventy years ago, the Western world — the culturally Christian-European world — in some cases allowed to be murdered, and in other cases murdered, approximately six million Jewish people.

    And now the members of Western governments, Western journalists as a whole, Western academics, the members of Western contemporary so-called “Human Rights” organizations, etc., and the mainline Protestant Christian church, and officials of the Catholic Christian church, and Eastern Orthodox priests, are libeling and diplomatically attacking and endangering the intendedly genocidally besieged, continuously militarily attacked, continuously terroristically attacked, newly-re-founded, liberal democratic sole nation of the Jewish people.

    —-

    Jesus, Interrupted: Revealing the Hidden Contradictions in the Bible (And Why We Don’t Know About Them), by Bart D. Ehrman
    http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Interrupted-Revealing-Hidden-Contradictions/dp/0061173940

    Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why, by Bart D. Ehrman
    http://www.amazon.com/Bart-D.-Ehrman/e/B001I9RR7G

    Lost Scriptures: Books that Did Not Make It into the New Testament, by Bart D. Ehrman
    http://www.amazon.com/Lost-Scriptures-Books-that-Testament/dp/0195182502

    Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why, by Bart D. Ehrman
    http://www.amazon.com/Misquoting-Jesus-Story-Behind-Changed/dp/0060859512

    Lost Scriptures: Books that Did Not Make It into the New Testament, by Bart D. Ehrman
    http://www.amazon.com/Lost-Scriptures-Books-that-Testament/dp/0195182502

    —-

    Jesus the Jew, by Geza Vermes
    http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Jew-Geza-Vermes/dp/0800614437

    —-

    And, by the way:

    God’s Problem: How the Bible Fails to Answer Our Most Important Question–Why We Suffer, by Bart D. Ehrman
    http://www.amazon.com/Gods-Problem-Answer-Important-Question–Why/dp/0061173924

    —–

    “The non-doing of any evil,
    the performance of what’s skillful,
    the cleansing of one’s own mind:
    this is the teaching
    of the Awakened.”

    — The Buddha (the “Awakened One”)

  64. says

    “However, the way that Christians here, such as Foolster41 and other Christians here, responded to me was harmful and wrong.”

    Again I note I have ONLY disagreeing with Daniel. I have not been nasty, but I have been firm, asking him to present facts fairly (since he claims Christianity is anti-semetic, I want him to SHOW in what way it is), but according to him to disagree is wrong?!

    This has gone on for too many circles now. I’m done. Daniel seems intent on repeating the same things over and over, and refuses to actually repsond to what people are actually saying, but instead puts up straw man arguments and uses apeals to emotion. If Daniel wants to honestly contenue and has been just ernestly misunderstanding, then I strongly urge him to re-read my posts and this one *slowly* and think about if maybe he is making any presumptions that might be false.

    It has NEVER been denied that Chrisitans did bad things (I think it’s been said many mamy times here, and thus part of the frustration on Christans here), I don’t think even DGB was denying it. What was being denyed was, the false idea that because Christians were anti-semetic, then Christianity is anti-semetic. This is an illogical argument. What is being denying is NOT that there were Nazi Christians, but that Nazism can be blamed on Christianity as a whole.

    Daniel’s list of “Christian Tenets” was so horribly skewed, as to be insulting with vague and misleading terms (I asked MUTLUIPLE times for a definition of what the thing about Jews as “totems” means, and pointed out other flaws, as did I beleive Champ.). He did not once respond to these objections, or present facts to back up this list, but refered to them again, as if no objections existed. (again, why people are reasonably frustrated with Daniel).

    TO DANIEL: How would you feel if someone listed tenets of the religion you belong to, from an outsideer that misrepresented that beliefs? Shouldn’t such a person, if told by a member of that faith that they were wrong be at least willing to consider whether it is true or not, and do research into what that religion actually teaches?

    Daniel now admits that Anti-semetism is against the teachings of Christianity. So then, it is ILLOGICAL AND DISHONEST to say then that Christianity is Anti-semetic, or that anti-semetism done by Christians should be blamed on all Christians, even those who are AGAINST anti-semetism.

    TO DANIEL: Wouldn’t you agree that it might come off as annoying to someone if you keep brining up someone’s past mistakes and they keep saying that they admit they do it, and their sorry, and then the person brings it up again and again? That is what you are doing. It is completely unfair.

  65. says

    to summarize: A religion or belief should be judged on WHAT THAT BELIEF TECHES, not on what people do. And ABOVE ALL ESPECIALLY to judge a belief on the actions of people who DISOBEY what it teaches is a horrendous dishonesty.

    Daniel links the modern smearing of Isreal with the past deeds of Christians, as if the progression can be traced from Rome to modern progressivism.
    But this link makes no sense. The modern turning against Isreal is not based on any Chrisitan theological basis (obviously since Daniel himself admitted it is against Christian teaching), but a far-leftist (by large mostly athiest secular) mindset of political correctness that has allowed Muslims to be the new victims.

  66. says

    Yes, Champ, a good article. And as I noted way above —

    http://www.jihadwatch.org/2013/05/boston-jihad-murderer-f-america-praise-allah.html#comment-946792

    — the German poet of the 19th century, Heinrich Heine, a very astute and brilliant observer of society and widely traveled throughout Europe though based in Germany, wrote often of how the German people — not just a tiny minority of intelligentsia elites, but more broadly — had become in his time disenchanted and detached from traditional religion. And he died in 1856 and wrote those observations probably in the 1840s, so that means that if he was accurate in his description, Germany had already become rootless from its religiosity nearly 100 years prior to the Nazi era! And anyone who knows modern history would know that the trend for secularism — culturally and psychologically and institutionally grew stronger as the 19th century passed into the 20th (and that trend continues to this very day); it did not grow weaker. So Heine’s German people would likely have become even more secular and detached from religion by the 1930s and 40s.

    But I doubt Daniel can process information rationally. So I’m just typing this for the record.

  67. says

    Thanks Champ — aw shucks, I thought you had found a way around it, as you and graven for example seem to cite quite a few old threads. How did you find the one on Daniel, for example?

  68. says

    I’ve been feeling badly because of the way that I wrote on this thread on this web site. I know that many Christians — and especially Christian Americans — now don’t hold the anti-Jewish bigotry that was prevalent until I think abut a generation ago — a few decades ago (in Western societies — including the U.S.). And I know that many Christians today — many Evangelical Christians and also others Christians — support Israel and feel a positive attachment to Jewish people. I’ve been feeling badly because I think that the way I wrote may have hurt such Christians’ feelings. I didn’t mean to hurt such Christians’ feelings.

    I’ve just been trying to communicate my understanding of why the members of Western governments, Western journalists in general as a whole, Western academics, the members of Western contemporary so-called “Human Rights orgranizations”, etc. — culturally-Christian post-Christian and Christian (and ethnically/culturally Jewish) — (and the mainline Christian Church, and officials of the Catholic Christian Church, and Eastern Orthodox Christian priests) have been colluding with the Islamic supremacist political movement. Western (culturally Christian) deeply ingrained two-thousand year-old anti-Jewish bigotry (and Jewish Stockholm Syndrome — which largely has been caused by Western (culturally Christian) deeply ingrained two-thousand year-old anti-Jewish bigotry): That’s what, it’s my understanding, is causing the Western collusion with the Islamic supremacist political movement.

    And Leftist anti-Jewish bigotry was referred to here by someone else in response to what I wrote. Do you think that Leftist anti-Jewish bigotry has nothing to do with, and is not part of Western (culturally Christian) deeply ingrained two-thousand year-old anti-Jewish bigotry? Well, Leftist anti-Jewish bigotry has very much to do with Western (culturally Christian) deeply ingrained two-thousand year-old anti-Jewish bigotry. The conspiracy theory about the Jewish people; the belief the Jewish people are malevolent and super-powerful as a group; the belief that Jewish people are predominantly involved in the “money professions” and that Jewish people are predominantly responsible for all of the economic ills in society: these are all bigoted beliefs that are from Western (culturally Christian) deeply ingrained two-thousand year-old anti-Jewish bigotry which are the core part of Leftist anti-Jewish bigotry.

    —-

    The Russian Loan, by KARL MARX, New-York Daily Tribune, January 4, 1856:

    “…The fact that 1855 years ago Christ drove the Jewish moneychangers out of the temple, and that the moneychangers of our age enlisted on the side of tyranny happen again chiefly to be Jews, is perhaps no more than a historical coincidence. The loan-mongering Jews of Europe do only on a larger and more obnoxious scale what many others do on one smaller and less significant. But it is only because the Jews are so strong that it is timely and expedient to expose and stigmatize their organization. …”

    On The Jewish Question, by KARL MARX, 1843:

    “…Let us consider the actual, worldly Jew — not the Sabbath Jew, as Bauer does, but the everyday Jew. Let us not look for the secret of the Jew in his religion, but let us look for the secret of his religion in the real Jew. What is the secular basis of Judaism? Practical need, self-interest. What is the worldly religion of the Jew? Huckstering. What is his worldly God? Money. Very well then! Emancipation from huckstering and money, consequently from practical, real Jewry, would be the self-emancipation of our time…. We recognize in Jewry, therefore, a general present-time-oriented anti-social element, an element which through historical development — to which in this harmful respect the Jews have zealously contributed — has been brought to its present high level, at which it must necessarily dissolve itself. In the final analysis, the emancipation of the Jews is the emancipation of mankind from Jewry. …”

    And, by the way:

    Schelling and Revelation, by FRIEDRICH ENGELS, 1841:

    “…This is our calling, that we shall become the templars of this Grail, gird the sword round our loins for its sake and stake our lives joyfully in the last holy war which will be followed by the thousand-year reign of freedom. …”

    —-

    “It’s not Islam. It’s not Muslims. It’s the Jews (Israel) (that are the problem)!”: That’s the belief underlying the Western (the members’ of Western governments, Western journalists’ in general as a whole, Western academics’, the members’ of Western contemporary so-called “Human Rights orgranizations”, etc., and the mainline Christian Church’s, and officials’ of the Catholic Christian Church, and Eastern Orthodox Christian priests’) collusion with the Islamic supremacist political movement.

    —-

    And, by the way:

    “…In the final analysis, the emancipation of the Jews is the emancipation of mankind from Jewry. …”

    “…the thousand-year reign of freedom. …”

    The National Socialist (Nationalsozialistische — Nazi) party.

    —-

    And, by the way, in “real life” I don’t feel, toward Christians, in person, and especially not toward Christian Americans, the anger or hostility that I expressed in my comments here.

    It’s just the situation in the world, and my understanding of the situation and history of the situation, and the situation that I’m in, and my writing on-line (and therein my “living in my head”) that have got me to write the harsh writing that I’ve written here. And the way that Christians here responded to me upset me. But I didn’t meant to hurt anyone’s feelings. And I apologize if I hurt anyone’s feelings.

    I hope that Christians here, and others here, will consider what I’ve written and understand what I’ve written.

  69. says

    A comment by another commenter on another blog:

    Today, there are many countries that have a profound sense of cultural identity, which clearly shows in their traditional approach to answering life’s great questions by way of religion.

    Many countries for instance adhere to traditional Buddhist concepts that have shaped their identity, like Japan, Taiwan or Thailand. Hinduism has shaped India. Many countries on the other hand recognize themselves as inheritors of Christian traditions (at the very least in the nominal sense), and quite a lot of others would define themselves as Islamic states by default. (even if some of them are officially considered secular governments)

    Alas, some religious adherents are likely to emphasize and embrace a particular part of their traditional religious ideology as one of the main core concepts, making all spiritual content de facto redundant. To such fanatics, Anti-Semitism overrules all ethical/spiritual concepts such a religion might hold.

    Regardless of my own opinions on religion (being a secular humanist, rather than religiously inspired in any way), I find it strikingly odd that there seems to be such an awful lot of disproportionate opposition to the notion of Zionism as a logical outcome of Jews’ desire to constitute the boundaries of a nation-state that has its profound roots in Judaism. It is quite clear to me that the concept of cultural identity stems from a longing to feel secure and united among those who share a more or less common culture and ancestry and share the same vision on what the future of this cultural identity should look like. A nation-state therefore is the best means to preserve cultural identity. It is quite worrying today that Western self-proclaimed intelligentsia have taken it upon them to pursue the inherent Anti-Semitic rhetoric which is inherent to Islam as a totalitarian ideology, to revile the policies of a nation like Israel, whereas the same people would never find cause to stick their noses in the internal policies of other nation-states, such as the ones mentioned above.

    This more or less suggests to me the ridiculous claim of the Left that Anti-Semitism and Anti-Zionism can be treated as separate issues is just a ruse, and basically not worth getting into further, seeing as the Left would never admit to being wrong. Therefore, being nitpicky on such a matter is futile when addressing the “Moonbat International’ directly. Anti-Zionism fits snugly into the main concept of anti-Judaism as a whole in my mind. So there IS a point in outlining the issue from a general perspective, rather than from a polemical one: the mere fact that so many self-declared ‘morally righteous’ intellectuals display such a great deal of criticism of Israel’s policies (while others consistently get off scot-free) is evidence enough of the fact that both are intertwined.

    Europe in particular has long carried the first wave of Anti-Semitism, starting with the advent of Christianity and the globalization [sic] of Roman-Catholicism and therefore predating Islamic Anti-Selitism by at least 600 years. Some people I have debated with in my own personal surroundings have been trying to make me understand that, for instance, there can be no morality without religion. Something I try to disprove in many ways. One of these issues (concerning Christianity in particular) evolves around the concept of some Christians’ dogmatic tendency to willy-nilly cling to the historic Christian aversion towards Jews, based on the belief that Jews have actually and intentionally killed God. (Deicide) It is quite odd that such Christians have subscribed to the contemporary Anti-Semitic mythological propaganda of the Liberal left on the one hand, and still seem to think they are able to bludgeon me with the notion that they represent “Ethical Christianity’! Conversely, the same also applies to those secular liberals who are marketing their brand of liberalism as ethical, when their Anti-Semitic propaganda seems to be deeply rooted in the same type of Christianity they traditionally proclaim to abhor! Somehow, I wonder why on earth this concept has emerged intermittently throughout the history of Europe to mobilize [sic] people en masse against the cultural entity Jews constitute, and why it seems to have taken precedence over all other issues as of late, to both Christians and secular liberals. In my mind, it would be inhumane to conceive religion in such a way that the vehement a priori hatred of a culturally distinct group should be incorporated by default into a religion that calls itself ethical. (which also makes Islam at fault, in more than one way even, make no mistake about it)

    Being shameful enough as this is, it also has spawned many Anti-Semitic conspiracy theories to ‘substantiate’ the central tenet of Deicide. And as a consequence, such a prejudiced type of thinking has kept re-affirming itself even during the Reformation. (Calvinism, Lutheranism,…etc) Even the mind of Enlightenment thinkers became infested with it. And in the end, it became the staple diet of authoritarian ideologies, such as Nazism and even Stalinism.(Soviet Anti-Semitism was dressed up as Zionology, a term designed to make anti-Semitism look scientifically ‘viable’)

    Anti-Judaism is not a concept that belongs exclusively to either the left or the right, as we well know today. It couldn’t be more obvious in 2010 that even those who proclaim to be progressive liberals are still profoundly infected with what is essentially known as a deeply (and humanely uncalled for) Christian concept. Being skeptical [sic] of all religions, and specifically when they behave like totalitarian doctrines that incorporate pre-conceived attitudes toward cultural minorities, it seems to me that those who claim to be independent thinkers in this day and age in a sense still behave like medieval paupers mobilised by Christian propaganda to wage war on Jews. And therefore, it should only be natural to them (I suppose) to go committing themselves to the ‘Palestinian cause’. Seemingly paradoxical, the Left clings to this cause with the sublimated religious fervor and fanaticism which is akin to medieval European Christianity!

    Ridiculous as it may seem, it is quite clear to me that progressive liberals have de-‘Christianized’ this long anti-Semitic legacy in order to not look bigoted or conservative, but as a matter of fact nothing has changed. Today some Christians still lay emphasis on this despicable legacy of prejudice, alongside neo-Nazis, Leftists and even some secular Humanists, and across political borders they forge bonds with each other on this very issue, and taking Islamic anti-Semitism into account as a means to justify their actions and thoughts, even!

    Not being Jewish myself, I can’t really understand what makes some people in the Western world seem so deeply “traumatized’ by a type of unquestioned, ill-conceived propaganda that has been handed down from one generation to the next throughout history to still warrant such criticism of Israel. As if some layers of society are profoundly indoctrinated and predestined to cling to Anti-Semitism like the proverbial “shit to a blanket’. As if they behave like Pavlovian dogs that have been conditioned to drool or bark as soon as the word “Israel’ gets mentioned. Which inevitably begs the question how liberated these so-called liberals really are. Considering the fact that Jews have created a nation-state on the very basis that they couldn’t possibly have guaranteed their long-term safety as a cultural entity in Europe at some points in history, it is quite self-explanatory to me that Anti-Zionism = Anti-Semitism. We have no business in meddling with the internal affairs of Israel, unless the point of this would be to openly demonstrate how intolerant we are (!)

    Those who want to fanatically cling to the despicable notion that someone is identifiably perpetually guilty of some mythical wrongdoing by default, can’t ever expect to point their finger of “moral supremacy’ at me and think they can get away with it unchallenged. Those who make such claims are not ethical to begin with, neither are they morally superior in any way. And whether they like to call themselves Christians or secular liberals or whatever is really beside the point.

    However, this doesn’t necessarily imply that ALL Christians, or secular liberals are to blame. Quite the contrary, rather. Which means I also recognize the fact that those Christians, liberals, conservatives and secular Humanists (among others) in the West that have abolished this myth of ‘Innate Guilt of Jews’ from their personal belief system are indeed worthy of the praise that’s due to them and the blogs they have created, for they realize [sic], just as I have, that perpetuating such myths can only be attributed to those people who first and foremost want to covet a rotten mind, hating for the sake of hatred itself, and nothing more than that. To me, there is definitely a clear distinction between those who treat religion or secular ideology as a transcendent Absolute Truth that cannot be questioned in any way and those who have criticized the troublesome aspects of religion and politics from a personal viewpoint (both Christians and others alike), in order to adapt and transform both to a belief that envisions religion/philosophy as something that can be truly ethical. As long as religion and ideology behave in a dogmatic fashion and people enslave themselves to tunnel-vision, our society can’t possibly call itself liberated in any way, and anti-Semitism will remain part and parcel of a despicable legacy that to some (rather than many, I hope) still has unquestionable “validity’.

    I am afraid though, that this issue has not been addressed [sic] sufficiently by some of these blogs however. Although some ideologies that dress up as religions, like Islam, are fundamentally inhumane, this should not make us blind to the fact that some Christian religious fanatics have made common cause with Islamists, just like the Left-wing and neo-Nazis have done. Anti-Semitism in fact is a much older ‘tradition’ than we would like to be reminded of, regardless of the innate inhumanity of Islam.

    http://mid-eastplus.blogspot.com/2010/07/lies-lies-and-lies-about-lies.html?showComment=1279117634509#c4188327328578745386

    —-

    Lies, lies, and lies about lies, by Denis MacEoin

    I’m going to start this by talking about anti-Semitism. You’re probably all aware that anti-Israel activists, when told they are anti-Semites, hotly deny the charge, saying they are just opposed to Israel and its policies. I don’t believe them, any of them. Let’s start with anti-Semitism itself. We know that for some 2000 years, Jews have been persecuted across Europe and the Middle East, and that this persecution culminated in the Holocaust. The Holocaust had all sorts of knock-on effects, especially in Europe. I was brought up in the shadow of it. All my generation were. One thing the Holocaust did was to make anti-Semitism unpopular. You couldn’t admit openly you were an anti-Semite. Only ex-Nazis in the comfort of their private homes in South America or Cairo could get it off their chests, that they still hated Jews, that they still longed for another Holocaust. Everybody else avoided any association with the Nazis and far-right politics. Of course, as time passed, little groups of far-right lunatics stood around in wet fields making the Hitlergrüss and saying Seig Heil, because it made feel better to be absolute nonentities in funny suits. People on the left became pro-Jewish and, for a time, pro-Israeli.

    But gradually, mainly in the past twenty years or so, there came a point when people couldn’t keep their hatred of Jews pent up any longer. These weren’t fascist thugs any longer so much as self-proclaimed liberals and leftists. They became infected with anti-Semitism because they wanted someone to pity and the Jews were no longer pitiable. In Wanderings, Chaim Potok’s very readable history of the Jews, he says ‘there are no more gentle Jews’. This time round, he argues, the Jews will not let themselves be herded onto railway trucks and shepherded into gas chambers. The young men and women of today’s IDF exemplify Potok’s declaration perfectly. Pity the Nazi who tries to herd them anywhere.

    For some reason, a lot of people don’t like this. But they still don’t like to be called anti-Semites, because anti-Semitism is a form of racism, and they aren’t racists. They think they aren’t racists because anti-racism is the keystone of modern right-on politics. But they are racists, so they have a problem. They have a lot of circles to square, and to do that they have employed a range of lies that cast a spell on the media and most of the general public. It goes something like this. The Jews are no longer suffering, but someone must be suffering in order to deserve our pity, and the obvious candidates for victimhood are the Palestinians, because those nice Arabs I met at our conference tell me they are. This must mean that the Jews are… A hard think here, I suppose, then the obvious answer. The Jews, sorry, the Israelis are Nazis. Not ‘like the Nazis’. They are Nazis. That sweet young Israeli girl doing her first year in the IDF and feeling pangs of homesickness every night is a Nazi. That boy with a kippa dovening in a field full of tanks is a Nazi. Gilad Schalit is a Nazi.

    Next, if there’s to be some sort of equivalence, there has to be a Holocaust. What? you say. What? But it’s obvious, they reply. There has been a Holocaust of the Palestinians. If this makes you feel nauseated, I don’t blame you. You ask, when, how many, where? They sneer and talk about Jenin (51 dead) and say it’s worse than gas chambers. And to make this worse, a lot of them deny the real Holocaust, aided and abetted by a UN member state, Iran.

    As a result of this warped style of thinking, we are living in a fantasy world. It doesn’t matter how many rockets Hamas fire, they are some sort of friendly prank. The separation fence isn’t a fence but an ‘apartheid wall’. And it doesn’t matter how racially mixed and free and democratic Israel is, it is, as we all know, an apartheid state. It’s unimportant how many times the Palestinians say they refuse to recognize Israel and to make peace, because we know they are the true peace-makers, and it’s the Israelis who are the obstacles to peace.

    The thing is, this is all so transparent a three-year-old could see through it. It’s like those Visible Man dolls, all its veins and organs and bones on display. Why do so many people fall for all this? A lot of them are students. Where on earth are they studying, what subjects, with whom? Because something basic is wrong with their education. Two weeks ago I went to a lecture on Islamophobia by a rabid anti-Israeli speaker. This man was in his 40s and dressed as if he was sixteen. He spoke in a very loud voice, and he thundered home the message that racism was wrong and islamophobia was wrong. He is a senior lecturer at a university near me. He could not tell the difference between racism and feelings of disquiet about a religion. This is the standard that passes for rigorous across the board today. Nobody wants to think any more, least of all about Israel. They hate Israel with a viciousness that can only originate in dark psychological problems with Jews. I don’t know why that is, and I don’t know how to solve it, but it’s the most dangerous single thing in the world today. I mean it. Hatred of Israel is going to provoke another war in the Middle East, and that war is capable of spreading to Europe, America and beyond. Iran is in the hands of lunatics, and other lunatics have made hatred of Israel the only political issue of any importance in the world. If we don’t do something to stop this, a lot of people are going to die. And they won’t all be Israelis.

    http://mid-eastplus.blogspot.com/2010/07/lies-lies-and-lies-about-lies.html

    —-

    Middle East Anti-Semitism, by Denis MacEoin

    Excerpts:

    …Islam has never been anti-Semitic in the racist sense. The treatment of Jews in countries like Morocco, Egypt, or Yemen was generally more tolerant and less prone to outright violence than that of Christian Europe. Even as late as the 1920s, the condition of the Jewish communities of Cairo and Alexandria was well in advance of that found in Russia, Poland, or France.

    In the 1930s and 40s, however, many Arabs were drawn to German fascism, hoping the Nazis would defeat the French and British and drive out the Jews. Hajj Amin al-Husayni, the infamous Mufti of Jerusalem, spent most of the war in Berlin, broadcasting to the Arab world and building the largest of the Reich’s SS divisions. Escaping arrest, he continued his propaganda work long after the war. In the 1960s, this imported style of anti-Semitism started to hold hands with a vicious strain of religious Judaeophobia coming from radical Islamic movements like the Muslim Brotherhood. Since then, this hybrid has entered the mainstream, where it has taken hold everywhere from universities to kindergartens.
    But this is probably the first time most of you will have read about any of this. Despite its obvious newsworthiness, it’s a subject routinely ignored by reporters, journalists, and documentary makers in Europe and North America. This allows most Westerners to go on fantasizing that anti-Semitism is the strict preserve of the loony right.
    Would that it were so. Anti-Semitism has always known how to mutate, moving from one culture to another with the greatest of ease. Just as the medieval European blood libel slipped into the Arab world in the 19th century and survives there today, so the new Middle Eastern anti-Semitism has moved back to Europe, where it has taken up residence among two groups, extremist Muslims and sectors of the Left.

    …Meanwhile, liberals like myself are betrayed by an increasingly disturbing rise of left-wing anti-Semitism. Having built up an unbalanced hatred for Israel (for many, it’s the only country in the world they condemn), many leftists have carelessly conflated anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism, and pride themselves in doing so. Here’s a considered remark by University of Massachusetts professor Helen Cullen: “Judaism and the Jewish identity are offensive to most human beings and will always cause trouble between the Jews and the rest of the human race’.
    Fair and honest criticism of Israel is one thing, but many on the left have left rationality behind to march alongside radical Muslims whose views on women, homosexuals, and Jews should send a chill down any liberal spine. It seems that the destruction of Israel, the very likely slaughter of its Jewish population, and the near-certain establishment of a deeply illiberal Islamic state have become goals for too many leftists who haven’t thought things through. Or simply haven’t thought. For too many, anti-Zionism acts as an excuse for anti-Semitism in a manner quite divorced from normal political argument.
    This vicious circle, from the European right to the Middle East, back to European Muslims and the European left, to a leftist fascism and so back to radical Islam must be stopped now, before it corrupts liberals beyond hope. It’s time the silence was broken and a proper debate opened up. When liberals join forces with people who train their children to become suicide bombers and teach them to call Jews “apes and pigs’, something is wrong. It won’t be put right until the liberal left sorts itself out on this litmus test of a true liberal conscience.

    http://mid-eastplus.blogspot.com/2007/06/middle-east-anti-semitism.html

    —-

    Jihad and Jew-Hatred: An Interview with Matthias Küntzel

    “…The main achievement of Haj Amin al-Husseini, the Mufti of Jerusalem, was to combine the Jew-hatred of ancient Islam with modern anti-Semitism into a new and persuasive rhetoric. I discovered a speech he gave in 1937 with the title, “Jewry and Islam.’ Here, he intermingled modern anti-Semitism [with] the stories of very early Islam, going back and forth from the 7th and the 20th centuries, and connecting both kinds of Jew-hatred. This was something new. …”

    http://207.97.238.133/democratiya/article.php?article=249

  70. says

    “And the way that Christians here responded to me upset me. But I didn’t meant to hurt anyone’s feelings. And I apologize if I hurt anyone’s feelings.”
    Apeals to emotion? Check.

    Long blocks of quotes to prove a point that has already been over-hammered in that people have already said they agree with over and over? Check.

    DANIEL: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9kRewzz_pM

    Completely ignoring questions put to him, or clearifying seeming contradictions (Christianity is inately anti-semetic, but now it isn’t?)? Check.

    Daniel should realize that all people did that “upset” him was disagree and ask for proof. If really has this thin of a skin that upsets him so much to make him “distraught” then the internet is probibly not a healthy place to be.

    Also, maybe he missed the fact that Marx and Engels were not Christian (and in fact openly HOSTILE to religion)?

    I’m done. Daniel wants to monolauge and not actually answer people, that’s not what this site is for, it’s ANNOYING and is against the rules.

  71. says

    Daniel should be warned, I won’t report this time, but if he tries to pull other comments sections off topic with this sort of tone-deaf and divisive monolauging, I WILL report him.

  72. says

    And blanket apologizes where one is unwilling to specifically apologize or acknowledge wrong doing (or at least back up WHY it isn’t wrong) makes the apology meaningless. Daniel hasn’t acknowledged his list of “Christian Tenets” are skewed (and has no problem referring to them again, even after people challenged them as skewed), or pointed out how what I said was “wrong” (or apologized for making this false claim). Yet Daniel can’t understand why he’s been treated as if he’s either clueless or dishonest!!

  73. says

    Foolster41,

    The writing that I quoted in my most recent previous comment clearly expresses all of what I tried to express in my previous comments on this thread.

    What I’ve written and quoted is self-explanatory.

    I think that it was wrong of me to apologize to you and others here such as you.

    I apologized to you and others here such as you in the same way that Jewish leaders of the government Israel apologized to Turkey for the “Gaza Flotilla”.

    I apologized to you and others here such as you in the same way that Jewish people have always apologized to people such as you and others here such as you.

  74. says

    Of course it’s not self-explanatory, or if there is an answer in there it is hidden in a long rambling post full of long quotes. He doesn’t answer my questions about how his views of Christian “tenets” might be wrong, or about bringing up greivences over and over that Christians both acknowledge and apollogize for, but he’d like to pretend that he’s answering clearly, but it seems Daniel has made it a policy to never actually respond to other’s posts directly.

    I feel like I’ve been pretty clear in my posts before. I do not deny past or present anti-semetism by Christians, but I do disagree that Christianity is inately anti-semetic. I strongly oppose leftists who spread anti-semetic lies about Israel. That is all I have been saying.

    He doesn’t explain in that post whether or not he thinks Christianity is inately anti-semetic (he said it was, and then he agreed it wasn’t without explanation when asked whether he changed his mind). His last post refers much to LEFTIST anti-semetism, but I am not a leftist. I am not anti-semetic. I support Israel, and I oppose the leftists who do not, so I fail to see how this long post applies to me, or his other long posts about liberal alliance with anti-Semites.

    Yet he is making it a habit of strongly worded posts against his allies who continue to agree with him on the points he keeps repeating over and over as if they are disagreeing. Why would someone do this?!

    Well at least now Daniel shows his true colors. He’s not sorry at all for the hateful things he’s said about Christianity being anti-semetic (without a smidgeon of actual proof of the actual tenets of Christianity to back this up, just stories of Christians DISOBEYING Christanity (as he admited), and a flagrantly biased synopsis of Christianity.

    He then has the AUDACITY to compare me to the Islamists in Turkey (Hint: In that case, I STAND WITH ISREAL) for asking him to prove what he says with facts and not make sweeping generalizations about Christians based on what people do that are OPPOSED to that group’s core teachings (as he admits!)!

    He lumps me, (a Chrisitan who fully supports Israel and HATES the lies being told against it) with the anti-semetic liars that Israel apollogizes to!

    This is horrendous. Beyond that, it is libel/slander. I will report you now Daniel, you’ve crossed the line here. I seriously hope you consider what you are saying, and think about how hateful it is, and how the only thing I’ve asked is you back up with you are saying with FACTS (that Christianity is inately anti-semetic). To Daniel, asking for facts is akin to Islamism. In other words, he’s saying: “shut up”: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWHgUE9AD4s

  75. says

    Despite what Daniel thinks or says, I don’t hate him (indeed, I am not the one saying false things about him, it is clear I am only asking he back up what he says with facts). I am just deeply saddened and perplexed he would falsely attack Christians who are his own (and Isreal’s) allies, and then hatefully make false comparison to Islamofacists!

    I forgive him for the heart breaking hate and lies he has shown towards me and Christians, because Christ commanded I forgive those who hate me.

  76. says

    Foolster41,

    You’ve continuously denied basic obvious facts, and then acknowledged certain other basic obvious facts but then denied their obvious crucial import.

    And you’ve continuously misconstrued what I’ve expressed and you’ve continuously falsely accused me of slandering you, and you’ve continuously falsely accused me of slandering Christians in general, when a Christian here viciously verbally attacked me and expressed hate toward me and denied basic crucial facts of the Holocaust, and when you continuously misconstrued what I expressed and when you continuously slandered me and when you continuously falsely accused me of slandering you, and when you continuously accused me of slandering Christians in general, and when you continuously denied basic obvious facts, and when you then acknowledged certain other basic obvious facts but then denied their obvious crucial import.

    And other Christians here have obfuscated and dissembled and falsely accused in a manner similar to that which you have done.

    So be it.

    But if it’s true that you don’t feel hate, at least that’s good.

  77. says

    I’m experiencing much suffering right now.

    I hope that we may come to a loving understand with each other.

    I just want to be happy. I just want to not suffer.

    I realize that you just want to be happy. I realize that you just want to not suffer.

    May you be well and happy.

    May we be well and happy.

  78. says

    Foolster41,

    I wrote “But if it’s true that you don’t feel hate, at least that’s good.” in anger, while I was feeling anger. So it was insincere of me to write that. So it was wrong of me to write that. My writing that was unwholesome. But I also wanted to write something beneficial. I wrote that because I was very distressed and because I was angry and also because I wanted to write something beneficial, but I didn’t know what to write. So I wrote that. But it was wrong of me to write that.

    But,

    May you be well.

    May we be well.

  79. says

    Duh Swami…DEAD on! Allah is an accessory to 270 million murdered KUFAAR! Allah should be tried for the greatest single number of crimes against humanity. ISLAM IS GUILTY! Again.

  80. says

    Excellent post, Remco.

    One small issue: you wrote, “You know, this dying declaration…”.

    The above is actually from Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, who is now in custody. It was his brother Tamlan, who was killed in the shootout with the police.

  81. says

    “People like the Tsarnaevs are enough to make one lose all faith in God. Why would He kill good people and let this piece of trash live?”

    Well, this isn’t a forum on our Christian God, but you raise a question that a lot of people may also be asking, and ultimately it’s the most important thing, and that’s faith. Why did God send His only son, Jesus, to die on the cross? Why was Barabbas freed and let live, instead of Jesus who was crucified? It’s part of the mystery in God’s plan that we can’t truly comprehend. If we did, we’d be God and not humans. Quoting from a priest I’ve heard, we are “perfectly human, and therefore humanly imperfect.” If anything, learning about Islam and the pure evil of it brings a strong conviction for me on a logical level that there just HAS to be our one true God that is all goodness and love. Keep up the faith, PMK! :)

  82. says

    Dan:

    Since you bring up anti-Semitism:

    How odd
    Of God
    To choose
    The Jews.

    How odder still
    Are those who choose
    The Jewish God
    And hate the Jews.

    Comment on Christian anti-Semitism.

  83. says

    A rather massive lacuna in Ms. Chatterley’s book “which explain[s] the nature of the Antisemitic Imagination by examining its historical and cultural evolution over the last two millennia” — if she fixates on Christianity and leaves Islam’s worse antisemitism (cf. Andrew Bostom), that leads from an inexcusable scholarly lapse to ideological treason.

  84. says

    I too would like a clear story. We have gone from two men to two boys, from a raging battle with two hundred rounds fire ti the police fired two hundred rounds at boys who possessed only a murdered policeman’s side arm the younger brother ran over the elder killing the elder. Finely the younger is shot at so many times by Boston ‘s finest while he is UNARMED!

    Really? With no internal affairs investigation regarding shooting of an unarmed man? What about the 200 rounds flying around the neighborhood? Either this needs to be investigated or the good old boys need to return to the academy to improve weaponry skills and procedures or this story given to the American people is not disclosing facts or it is a fabrication.

    The only fact we can be sure is truth: the brothers took up arms against their own people. These Jihadists are guilty TREASON and the younger should be dispatched with the full weight and punishment of that crime. Dhammapeda not withstanding. Death to traitors may stop some mothers from encouraging these violent behaviors. We may also hear the four or five persons killed by the brothers, “there blood cries out from the ground.”

    I believe treason is punished by hanging. Shooting is to good for this guy.

  85. says

    “The radically immoral characteristics of this fabrication created by Christianity remain consistent despite their secularization and racialization during the 18th and 19th centuries, their Islamization from the middle of the 20th century, and their globalization via the Internet and satellite television since 2001. For the antisemite, “the Jew” remains inherently unethical, enormously powerful, conspiratorial by nature, intent on world domination, corrosive in effect, and an existential threat to humanity however that shifting concept is defined (be it Christian, proletarian, “Aryan”, or Islamic). The book demonstrates that this has been the case historically regardless of whether or not the context was religious or secular, Western or Islamic, left or right.”

    **********

    Wow!

    Lady Chatterley sure finds a lot of Jew haten’ gonin’ on.

    And we’re all doin’ it, not even KNOWIN’ that we’re doin’ it!

    This babe has got perceptive powers to behold.

    I mean this fabrication of the Christians with “radically immoral characteristics” got ISLAMIZED?!

    How’d we all miss THAT?

  86. says

    Daniel Bielak wrote:

    And I want to let you, dumbledoresarmy and gravenimage and everyone else who supports Israel and the Jewish people, know that I appreciate your support of Israel and the Jewish people very much.
    …………………………..

    Daniel, I support Israel and the Jewish people because the Jewish people have built a vibrant, modern, democratic state in Israel”moreover, they have so while perpetually under fire.

    Their civilized behavior in the face of a genocidal Jihad is astoundingly honorable and praiseworthy. As Pamela Geller says, “support the civilized man”.

    And yes”antisemitism *does* still exist in the West”I don’t want to discount that. But by far the worst”and most dangerous”antisemitism today is found among Muslims.

    Be well.

  87. says

    If it was my boat, I would make it a tourist attraction and charge people a dollar a minute to sit in it and soak up the vibes…
    The FBI could monitor and get pictures and names of anyone who appeared to be soaking up too many vibes…Or, he could put it up for auction on e-bay…I bet he could get a lot of bucks for it…

  88. says

    I noticed the same thing…The boat is not bullet proof, why is the jihadist still alive?
    The police are just lousy shots?

  89. says

    What’s odd to me is why ‘God’ bothers to involve himself in human affairs…All gods do that, Allah is addicted to it…YHVH has rules and regulations, but nothing like sharia…I don’t know if anyone notices, but Allah is closest to the god Mars, and all it’s martial symbolism…
    We would be better off if all these invisible entities butted out and leave us alone…

  90. says

    Speaking of lacunae, I left out a crucial phrase:

    “…if she fixates on Christianity and leaves Islam’s worse antisemitism (cf. Andrew Bostom) unexamined…”

  91. says

    “I noticed the same thing…The boat is not bullet proof, why is the jihadist still alive?
    The police are just lousy shots?”

    You don’t get it, do you? Western intelligence and police are instructed to take Muslim terrorists alive and only kill them when the Muslims by shooting back may make it impossible to be taken alive. And why are our Western intelligence and police instructed to take Muslim terrorists alive? Because we refuse to define them as enemy combatants in a hot war going on now. They are defined as common criminals. And that’s how Western police are instructed to treat even deadly criminals — apprehend them to be put on trial and then punished by jail; not kill them on the battlefield.

  92. says

    What I get is that the boat was not bullet proof and the police, not knowing exactly where he was in the boat shot at it numerous times…In order to deliberately miss him, they would have to know which end of the boat he was in and shoot up the other end…Anytime the police fire 50-100 shots at you, you can be sure they are trying to kill you…especially if you are shooting at them…

  93. says

    “Anytime the police fire 50-100 shots at you, you can be sure they are trying to kill you…especially if you are shooting at them…”

    Not necessarily. How many of those shots hit the boat? The purpose of shooting is not only to kill, but to try to scare the person into giving up. At any rate, my point stands. The West continues to make and indulge and elaborately cultivate its greatest mistake — treating Muslims as though they were not enemy combatants.

  94. says

    “Police in the civilized West *always* prefer to take any target alive”

    Yes, I agree. But what I protest is the notion that police should be used at all against Muslims — for the same reason that I would have opposed the use of San Francisco police to go boating and flying across the Pacific to try to arrest Japanese soldiers on various islands they had commandeered in their war, in alliance with Hitler, against us and against all Asians.

    And if some readers may protest that my insistence is unrealistic, that doesn’t make it necessarily wrong. And if reality happens to be currently wrong, it’s likely never to be righted if everything fatalistically throws up their hands and says “well, there’s no point in trying to change it!”

    Sure, there are some things in reality that it is reasonable to suppose will never change — such as the fanatical enmity of Muslims against non-Muslims. Which is why we need to change, to adapt to that perennially enduring — and now metastasizing and armed to the teeth with our modern technology — danger.

  95. says

    Well Dan, I am not a “European Christian” – never have been. I don’t even claim to be an American Christian.

    But there are other species of religious bigot, besides the anti Semite.

    Anti Christian bigots abound.

    So, please explain to me how you do not fall into this group of Christian haters – or give aid and comfort to those who do.

  96. says

    “Islam’s worse antisemitism”? Not so. Islamic and culturally Islamic anti-Jewish bigotry, as it has been practiced, overall, throughout the existence of Islam, and as it has been held ideologically, overall, throughout the existence of Islam, has not been worse than Christian European and culturally Christian-European anti-Jewish bigotry as it has been practiced, overall, throughout the existence of Christianity, and as it has been held ideologically, overall, throughout the existence of Christianity.

    Daniel Bielak, I’d suggest that you read In Ishmael’s House by Martin Gilbert, and the massive compendium The Legacy of Islamic Antisemitism by Andrew Bostom, before you solidify into stone your credulity in the reigning PC MC paradigm on this issue.

  97. says

    Daniel Bielak wrote:

    “Islam’s worse antisemitism”? Not so. Islamic and culturally Islamic anti-Jewish bigotry, as it has been practiced, overall, throughout the existence of Islam, and as it has been held ideologically, overall, throughout the existence of Islam, has not been worse than Christian European and culturally Christian-European anti-Jewish bigotry as it has been practiced…
    …………………………….

    Daniel Bielak has posited this pretty much every time he has posted, and I’ve never been sure why.

    You can read Maimonides for his views on the greater danger of Islamic antisemitism even during the Middle Ages. You can read Andrew Bostom’s “The History of Islamic Antisemitism” to see how pervasive it has been. You can read the Qur’an, the Hadith, and the Sira to see how deeply entwined the hatred and murder of Jews is with Islam.

    Even more importantly, you can see the situation today: while some disgusting Westerners do hedge antisemitism with unwarranted criticism of Israel, nowhere will you find Westerners screaming genocidal slogans like “Khaybar, Kaybar, the army of Muhammed will return!” or “Hamas, Hamas, Jews to the gas!” as you will with Muslims. Nor will you find appalling stories like this one, just from today:

    “Egyptian Muslim cleric: ‘Oh Allah, annihilate the Jews'”

    http://www.jihadwatch.org/2013/05/egyptian-muslim-cleric-oh-allah-annihilate-the-jews.html

    This is *very* common in the Muslim world. Pious Muslims regularly threaten to destroy the state of Israel”Westerners do not.

    Most of us are very critical, in any case, of Westerners who do not support Israel and the Jewish people. I am, and so are many others here. Robert Spencer himself has been unfailingly supportive of Israel and of Jews under threat. He frequently allies with Jewish people”including his close compatriot Pamela Geller, who is a secular Jew.

    I’ve never denied the historical strain of antisemitism in the West. And why would I? I am very critical of that history, as I am of racism and abridgment of the rights of women. And regarding the Holocaust, my mother and aunt served in the British army as very young women during WWII. In an extremely small way, they had a hand in defeating Hitler. I’m very proud of them for that.

    So”what Daniel Bielak’s point? To make Westerners and Christians”and Christian Westerners”at Jihad Watch, almost all of whom support Israel and the Jewish people, feel guilty? To minimize the threat from genocidal Muslims? I’m not sure”it does often seem quite counterproductive, though.

  98. says

    “And it seems to me that you are Christian.”

    **********

    And it seems to me that you Sir, are a bigot.

    **********

    “The Jewish people were mass-murdered, in the millions, by supposedly civilized Westerners, culturally Christian Europeans, just seventy years ago.”

    **********

    To suggest that Christians are somehow responsible for the Holocaust, is a slander of a magnitude that makes “The Protocols of The Elders of Zion” pale in comparison. Why do you promulgate such hate?

    **********

    “It would be good if culturally Christian-European Christians would put themselves in other people’s shoes. It would be especially good if culturally Christian-European Christians would put themselves in the shoes of the Jewish people.”

    **********

    No sir.

    It would be good if YOU put yourself in the shoes of believing Christians, who OVERWHELMINGLY support Israel, and reflect for a long while on just why they do so. Then, it would be good if you put yourself in the shoes of other honest men (whom you disdainfully call Christians) and try to understand why they also support Israel.

    **********

    “Islam’s worse antisemitism”? Not so. Islamic and culturally Islamic anti-Jewish bigotry, as it has been practiced, overall, throughout the existence of Islam, and as it has been held ideologically, overall, throughout the existence of Islam, has not been worse than Christian European and culturally Christian-European anti-Jewish bigotry as it has been practiced, overall, throughout the existence of Christianity, and as it has been held ideologically, overall, throughout the existence of Christianity.”

    **********

    Do you take us for fools, Sir?

    This statement of yours is so outlandish and so provably false, on the face of it, as to call into question the sanity of the one proffering it.

    If you truly believe such to be the case Sir, why then join the Jihadis and slay the evil Christian Beast!

    I support Israel, period.

    Thank God it is not populated by hateful fools such as yourself.

  99. says

    Daniel, I believe that LemonLime is largely correct.

    Even when I was a child, I supported Israel”and not because I came from a household that did, particularly. It was just clear to me that the Jews of Israel were much more civilized people than were the “Palestinians” who were using hijackings and suicide bombings against them. But like so many who were exposed to nothing but the mainstream media, I regarded the “conflict in the Middle East” as the result of some mysterious “ancient hatreds”, and pretty much threw up my hands regarding the situation.

    When I was 17 and first at university, I first heard about the “two-state solution”. Naîve as I was, I embraced this fata morgana wholeheartedly. Moreover, so did the liberal Jewish students and their Gentile friends whom I heard about it from.

    Even early on, I wondered if it would be enough for the aggressive “Palestinians”. But I pushed such qualms aside for several years.

    Eventually, I came to see that this was a mirage, and one just used to wring unilateral concessions from Israel. It was after Oslo”where “Palestinians” got almost everything they wanted and responded by launching the bloody First Intefada that I knew for well and good that they were *not* operating in good faith. It would be many more years, I’m ashamed to admit, before I would understand that the unending war against Israel is an Islamically ideological Jihad.

    But does that mean that I was antisemitic during the time that I supported the idiotic “two-state solution” idea? It *does not*. Nor were the many other Gentile supporters I met antisemitic. Not”and this is important”were the many *Jewish* supporters of same. These were not “self-hating” Jews. Some planned, in fact, to make Aliyah after their studies. Many”including my editor at the Jewish student newspaper where I was graphics editor”had already made trips to Israel, working on Kibbutz and doing social work with new Jewish immigrants.

    Even today, there are many who support the “two-state solution”. After so many years, this is far less defensible than it was when I was at college”but many of the supporters are the same hopeful sorts that I was”their denial is just a bit deeper.

    Moreover, many Jews”*including Israelis themselves*”*still* cling to these tropes.

    Some of those whining about the “poor Palestinians” really are just cloaking their anitsemitism in “acceptable” garb”certainly, we see this sometimes in Europe and the rest of the West with creeps making excuses for Hamas, for instance.

    But, like LemonLime, I believe that these actual antisemites are in the minority. Most of the enablers of this ongoing farce of “Middle East Peace Plans” really are well meaning.

    Now, this *does not mean* that they are not dangerous. Liberal Jews in Israel who supported the return of the Sinai and the unilateral withdrawal from Gaza, hoping it would bring peace, and those who council further concessions on the same basis, are suicidally delusional”but rarely evil.

    I find this frustrating and deeply concerning”but not as concerning as it would be if all these people actively sought the destruction of Israel and the triumph of Muslim Jihadists, which they do not.

    No matter how deep in denial, people of good will can always potential be educated and wake up to reality.

    That, indeed, is what Jihad Watch is for.

    Re the Holocaust, you are right about the shameful complicity of so many ordinary German citizens”as well as the same in places like Poland and France.

    One can argue, as well, that Britain and the United States should have taken in more Jewish refugees in the years before the Holocaust. I am one of those who argues that. But it is also true that *no one* outside of Hitler’s inner circle understood that what looked like an ugly antisemitic pogrom in Germany would become the genocidal Holocaust at the time.

    And remember, the Danish Jews and Gentiles working together with the government there saved virtually the entire population of Danish Jews right after the Nazis invaded there. Sweden took in the entire population, though they knew they represented an expense they could ill afford, as well as a “provocation” to the Nazis. They did it anyway. Many Danish Gentiles were interrogated, and many would up in German prison camps as a result.

    Many Gentiles hid their Jewish neighbors. Who can forget Miep Gies, who hid Anne Frank’s family? After they were discovered, Miep Gies was arrested, tortured, and sent to a labor camp. She never regretted having helped them’she just regretted the fact that she had not been able to ultimately save them.

    There were many other Gentiles who aided and saved Jewish people”including some Germans.

    Israel honors such Righteous Gentiles.

    And remember, also, that it was Gentiles”British and American mostly, as well as the Soviets”who *liberated* the death camps. It was also the Gentile Red Cross and other groups that first aided the victims.

    I understand and share your concerns over antisemitism”but I *don’t* believe that it is anywhere near as rampant as seem to believe.

    And I say again”neither Robert Spencer nor the other Gentile Anti-Jihadists here are your enemies. Davegreybeard is not your enemy.

    You have friends and allies here, Daniel. Don’t push them away.

  100. says

    Davegreybeard,

    You wrote:

    Well Dan, I am not a “European Christian” – never have been. I don’t even claim to be an American Christian.

    I assume that your cultural background is from a culturally Christian European society. The United States, and Canada, and Australia, and New Zealand, etc. are culturally Christian European countries — countries the culture of whose societies is descended from Christian European culture — countries whose societies are culturally Christian European.

    And it seems to me that you are Christian.

    You wrote:

    But there are other species of religious bigot, besides the anti Semite.

    Anti Christian bigots abound.

    So, please explain to me how you do not fall into this group of Christian haters – or give aid and comfort to those who do.

    I’m expressing facts about a detrimental situation that the Jewish people are in. I am aware that these facts are not flattering to Christians. However, the viewing, by someone who is Christian, my expressing these facts as being “Anti Christian bigotry” or “Anti Christian hate” would be a manifestation of conceit, dishonesty, and anti-Jewish bigotry.

    One wants humane ethical treatment by Jewish doctors at an Israeli hospital? Then declare one’s own intention to destroy the country of the Jewish people — Israel — and declare one’s own intention to commit genocide against the Jewish people, and attempt to murder Jewish people in the country of the Jewish people — Israel — and wound Jewish people in the process of doing that, and get wounded in the process of doing that. That will get oneself humane ethical treatment by Jewish doctors at an Israeli hospital.

    One wants the country of the Jewish people — Israel — to supply the running water and electrical power for, and medical supplies to, the non-Jewish newly arrived current population of the ancestrally Jewish territory which oneself is being granted sovereignty over by the country of the Jewish people — Israel? Then be a terrorist murderous ideologically genocidal anti-Jewish political organization — Hamas. That will cause the country of the Jewish people — Israel — to supply the running water and electrical power for, and medical supplies to, the non-Jewish newly arrived current population of the ancestrally Jewish territory which oneself is being granted sovereignty over by the country of the Jewish people — Israel.

    One wants free access to the capital city of, and, in some cases, near-sovereignty over, or sovereignty over, parts of the capital city of, and free access to the rest of, the intendedly genocidally besieged sole country of the Jewish people — a country which is being libeled by and diplomatically attacked by officials of the Catholic Christian church, and by Eastern orthodox Christian clerics, and by the denominations of the mainline Protestant Christian Church (and by the governments of officially Christian states)? Then be a member of the clerical establishment of, or a member of the congregation of, those denominations of the Christian church — an ideological cultural organization which, and an ideological cultural organization whose societies, Christian European societies, for the past two thousand years, have libeled the Jewish people, and repeatedly committed mass-murder against the Jewish people, and continuously made and enforced unjust persecutorial unjust laws against the Jewish people (continuing even today — such as with U.N. resolutions, EU policy, U.S. State Department policy, etc.)), and usurped the ancestral religion of, and the cultural narrative of, and even the cultural identity of, the Jewish people. That will get oneself free access to the capital city of, and, in some cases, near-sovereignty over, or sovereignty over, parts of the capital city of, and free access to the rest of, the intendedly genocidally besieged sole country of the Jewish people — Israel.

    (And by the way: One wants assistance from the country of the Jewish people — Israel — and from Jewish humanitarian organizations, in being rescued from being persecuted by Muslims who are persecuting you? Then be Middle Eastern Christians whose Churches have libeled and vilified the Jewish people and, in some cases, have done so until recently, and in some cases, are still doing so. That will get you assistance from the nation of the Jewish people, Israel, and from Jewish humanitarian organizations, in being rescued from being persecuted by Muslims who are persecuting you.)

    Those are just some few of the things that one can do if one wants to be treated with graciousness by Jewish people.

    And, by the way, I have verbally defended culturally Christian-European Christians who have been wronged by the Islamic supremacist political movement and who have been wronged by the Western collusion with the Islamic supremacist political movement.

    It would be good if culturally Christian-European Christians would put themselves in other people’s shoes. It would be especially good if culturally Christian-European Christians would put themselves in the shoes of the Jewish people.

    —-

    Dining with the Devil, by Faith McDonnell

    “The leadership of the Presbyterian Church recently decided to encourage its governing body to promote divestment from companies that do business with Israel. Shortly thereafter, the Anglican church, the Lutheran church and the World Council of Churches (WCC, with 347 member denominations world-wide) followed suit with the explanation that divestment “(is) a new way to work for peace, by looking at ways to not participate economically in illegal activities related to the Israeli occupation.’ These churches are among those often referred to as “mainline’ churches.

    “The most problematic issue of this new “mainline’ posture is that it is clearly intended to support the Arab terror war against Israel; and to justify that support, church spokespersons make use of false information about the conflict.

    “A review of factual information about the conflict and the nature of divestment reveals that the mainline churches have stood up in favor of a process that is illegal, irrational, immoral, biased against Israel and in favor of Israel’s enemies, and consciously oblivious to the transparent lies of divestment proponents. …”

    http://archive.frontpagemag.com/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=32434

    —-

    Israel as the Ram in the Thicket, by Dexter Van Zile

    “In the course of my work, I have become increasingly worried about the message offered by mainline Protestant churches (and some quarters of the Roman Catholic Church) about the Arab-Israeli conflict. Not only is the narrative offered by these institutions distorted, it has a negative impact on the safety of Jews throughout the world. …”

    http://mfnklst.blogspot.com/2010/07/israel-as-ram-in-thicket.html

    —-

    The World Council of Churches Broadcasts a Lethal Narrative, by Dexter Van Zile

    “…The WCC’s obsession with Jewish sin can be seen in its commentary about the Arab-Israeli conflict. The World Council of Churches speaks about the modern state of Israel in a manner similar to the way Christians spoke about Jews in Medieval Europe – as a uniquely sinful nation worthy of contempt from all right thinking Christians. …”

    http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=7&x_issue=37&x_article=2127

    On Antisemitism – I Find It Shameful – Shameful Attacks on Israel, by Oriana Fallaci, 2002

    “I find it shameful that the Roman Observer, the newspaper of the Pope–a Pope who not long ago left in the Wailing Wall a letter of apology for the Jews–accuses of extermination a people who were exterminated in the millions by Christians. By Europeans. I find it shameful that this newspaper denies to the survivors of that people (survivors who still have numbers tattooed on their arms) the right to react, to defend themselves, to not be exterminated again. I find it shameful that in the name of Jesus Christ (a Jew without whom they would all be unemployed), the priests of our parishes or Social Centres or whatever they are flirt with the assassins of those in Jerusalem who cannot go to eat a pizza or buy some eggs without being blown up. …”

    “…I find it shameful and see in all this the rise of a new fascism, a new Nazism. A fascism, a Nazism, that much more grim and revolting because it is conducted and nourished by those who hypocritically pose as do-gooders, progressives, communists, pacifists, Catholics or rather Christians, and who have the gall to label a warmonger anyone like me who screams the truth. …”

    Text: http://www.oerby.dk/sider/Oriana%20Fallaci.htm
    Audio part 1 of 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lS9Dl5YEy3o
    Audio part 2 of 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anTPuAQ1oUU

    —-

    Again: My initial comment

    I apologize for expressing vexation.

    Please forgive me.

    I’m only human.

    I’m an ordinary human being.

  101. says

    Gravenimage,

    You wrote:

    “So”what Daniel Bielak’s point?”

    The point is:

    “to stop the Western collusion with, and enablement of, the Islamic supremacist political movement, and to thereby dispel and stop the contemporary Islamic supremacist political movement.”

    My trying to communicate this which I wrote has been the wholesome one of my intentions in my posting about his topic.

    In the past,

    When I started writing about this topic (Western anti-Jewish bigotry: one of the two main causes of the Western collusion with the Islamic supremacist political movement) on this forum, I always wrote this.

    When I continued to write about this topic (Western anti-Jewish bigotry) on this forum, I always wrote this.

    And then Christians and “cultural Christians” denied that this was true.

    And, then I explained how this was true.

    The belief in, and propagation of the following false narrative:

    – “the Jews are persecuting ‘The Palestinians'”

    – “‘The Palestinians’ are the Muslims”

    – “The U.S. government supports the Jews”

    – “The Jews control the foreign policy of the U.S. government; The Jews control the media”

    – “The Jews are obfuscating their persecution of the Muslims and are libeling the Muslims”

    – “The Muslims are justifiably angry about their being persecuted by the Jews, and are justifiably angry that the U.S. government is supporting the Jews’ persecution of them”

    – “We need to show the Muslims that we support them, so that they won’t be angry at us.” / “We need to support the Muslims against the evil powerful Jews.”

    And then Christians and “cultural Christians” denied that this was a main cause of the Western collusion with the Islamic supremacist political movement.

    And then I listed information about the phenomena of current and past Western anti-Jewish bigotry. And then Christians and “cultural Christians” denied the facts and importance of the facts that I listed, and then, in response to my listing that information to them, Christians and “cultural Christians” said that, historically, Jewish people had it harder in Islamic societies than in Christian European societies.

    (continued)

    —-

    BTW:

    You wrote:

    “You can read Maimonides for his views on the greater danger of Islamic antisemitism even during the Middle Ages.”

    Maimonides was under Medieval Islamic dominion.

    Was Maimonides under Medieval Christian European dominion?

    —-

    (from continued)

    To which I responded by listing basic facts about the situation of Jewish people in Christian societies and information about the current culturally Christian-European Christian and post-Christian Western bigoted anti-Jewish war against Israel.

    And then I was called a “Christian hater”.

    And then I said:

    Western anti-Jewish bigotry must be dispelled

    “to stop the Western collusion with, and enablement of, the Islamic supremacist political movement, and to thereby dispel and stop the contemporary Islamic supremacist political movement.”

    —-

    But, in addition to my wanting to communicate that, I’m also very frustrated and vexed by the conceit and dishonesty and callousness and malice expressed toward me and toward the Jewish people by Christians in response to my trying to communicate my understanding of the fact that Western anti-Jewish bigotry is one of the two main causes of the Western collusion with the Islamic supremacist political movement. And I’m vexed by Christians’ refusal to acknowledge the extreme harm and wrong that Christian European people did to the Jewish people throughout the past two thousand years. And I’m vexed and frustrated and hurt by Christians’ refusal to acknowledge the suffering that Jewish people have experienced as a result of the extreme harm and wrong that Christians Europeans have done to the Jewish people.

    But these particular things that I feel are not beneficial. It’s neither here nor there. It’s not important. So it happened. It’s feelings that I feel.

    What’s important is what happening now: The Western collusion with Islamic supremacist political movement — which is being caused by Western anti-Jewish bigotry. And the Western refusal to acknowledge it, and the Western lack of seeing it. The West’s lack of seeing it’s anti-Jewish bigotry. Which is part of that Western anti-Jewish bigotry.

    And,

    The other main cause of the Western collusion with the Islamic supremacist political movement is Jewish Stockholm Syndrome. And I have been very frustrated by seeing the experiencing of Jewish Stockholm Syndrome by Jewish people. And I have been very frustrated by seeing the wrong actions done by Jewish people experiencing Jewish Stockholm Syndrome (including, and most importantly, the actions by the leaders of the government of Israel).

    And Jewish Stockholm Syndrome has been caused largely by Western anti-Jewish bigotry (and also by conceit and lack of mindfulness).

    —-

    Uprooting Antisemitism Through Scholarship and Education, by Dr. Catherine Chatterley
    http://vimeo.com/45200603

  102. says

    Daniel Bielak wrote:

    “So”what [is] Daniel Bielak’s point?”

    The point is:

    “to stop the Western collusion with, and enablement of, the Islamic supremacist political movement, and to thereby dispel and stop the contemporary Islamic supremacist political movement.”
    ………………………….

    In that case, Daniel, I agree with you”and I imagine most others here do, as well.

    We all talk about dhimmitude in the West and the enabling of Jihad, both by the willfully clueless and by those few who deliberately support it”both as it effects Israel and more generally.

    With respect, though, I’m not sure your positing this Western enabling of Jihad as being an intrinsic part of either Christianity or the culture of the West itself to be either accurate or useful.

    I consider Israel an intrinsic part of the West as well, both historically and today.

    Israel and the Jewish people have a huge amount of support here”there is no reason to treat Jihad Watchers as the enemy.

    Am Yisrael Chai!”×¢×� ישר×�ל ×—×™

  103. says

    Stick to your Buddhism, Dan.

    It is much more pleasant, and just might help to keep you from straying down that foolish and hateful path.

  104. says

    Davegreybeard,

    What I wrote in my previous comments is true. And you have wrongfully accused me of lying, and you have accused me of feeling hate when you have expressed hate towards me when I have expressed facts which have offended your ego and which are facts that you know nothing about. And your not knowing those facts, and your thinking those facts to be lies, is horrific to me.

    What you wrote to me hurt me extremely.

    “What is Antisemitism and How Does It Affect the Conflict?”, by Dr. Catherine Chatterley, University of Winnipeg, Middle East Week, March 2013
    http://vimeo.com/61949203

  105. says

    LemonLime,

    “There’s a complex wrinkle in Daniel Bielak’s thesis which he appears to ignore: while he’s certainly right that certain Western antisemites would snuggle up to Muslims, I remain unconvinced that such Westerners are numerous and represent anything broader, demographically and ideologically, than a very small minority of radical Leftists (along with a smaller smattering of strange bedfellows in the form of idiosyncratically cranky ultra-right-wingers).”

    This is the problem with so many people such as you, LemonLime. You simply don’t know the extent of it.

    It’s huge and broad. And it’s not that there are huge swaths of Westerners who “snuggle up to” ideologically genocidal Islamic supremacists. There are, however, Western influencers who snuggle up to ideologically genocidal anti-Jewish Islamic supremacists. It’s complex. It’s multifaceted. It can be easily changed though. By telling the crucial facts of the history and current reality of the situation that Israel is in to the American people.

    The reason I’m so emotionally attached — emotionally upset — by the fact that the reason that so many Westerners are anti-Israel involves anti-Jewish bigotry is because I’m Jewish and I know the extent of it and what it involves and all the aspects of it and it’s excruciatingly frustrating to me and vexing to me and it hurts. It hurts me. It’s painful to me. And I’m frustrated by the fact that so many people — people who support Israel – are ignorant of it. That’s a large part of my frustration. But the main thing is just to communicate the crucial facts of the history and current reality of the situation that Israel is in to the American people.

    And I ask you to please listen to the following talk and question and answer session after the talk.

    What is Antisemitism and How Does It Affect the Conflict?, by Dr. Catherine Chatterley, University of Winnipeg, Middle East Week, March 2013
    http://vimeo.com/61949203

  106. says

    “And you called me hateful and you called me a fool.”

    **********

    Yep.

    And don’t forget the “bigot” part.

    BIGOT:
    a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance

    **********

    “And you implicitly expressed that who you called “believing Christians” are, by definition, what you called “honest men”, and you expressed that other people are what you called “honest men”, and you implicitly expressed that I am not honest, and you implicitly expressed that I am not a member of whom you called “honest men”.”

    **********

    Haven’t called YOU dishonest, Dan – yet.

    **********

    And as gentle Gravenimage put it:

    “And I say again”neither Robert Spencer nor the other Gentile Anti-Jihadists here are your enemies. Davegreybeard is not your enemy.

    You have friends and allies here, Daniel. Don’t push them away.”

  107. says

    ”Bielak’s concerns are certainly worthwhile discussion points for another venue; but in terms of this venue, focused on the problem of Muslims and how their deadly fanaticism is endangering various peoples around the world, his concerns are distracting at best”

    I wouldn’t describe **anti-Semitism** as a ‘distraction’, exactly; it is, after all, one of the most fundamental driving forces of islam.

    I do agree with Foolster, though, that Daniel is here ”preaching to the choir”, and his facile assumption that every Christian, nominal Christian, and cultural Christian harbours anti-Semitism in their breasts is not only patently untrue, but also offensive.

    ” Only neurotically obessed people are incapable of compartmentalizing topics on the basis of priority and relevance.”

    I seem to remember, when Daniel *first* posted here, he said he suffered from OCD. If this is the case, then perhaps we could, as you Americans put it, ”cut him some slack” on that basis.

  108. says

    “I would relegate him to the back table way over by the men’s room where he (and others who have problems with priorities) can staple brochures and lick envelopes for the Anti-Islam Movement until further notice.”

    Jus’ me “n Sweet Pea hangin’ out by the mens room, Boss.

    Faint whiff “o Jihadi in the air though.

  109. says

    Listen, buddy. Here’s the bottom line:

    You would have to search far and wide to find a group of “cultural anythings” who are more supportive of Israel and the Jewish people than us here at Jihad Watch. Your continuous insistence re placing the blame for historical wrongs of SOME segments of “culturally Christian” Western societies on Western Christianity as a whole is only serving to distract from the greater Cause, which is the Fight against islam. LemonLime makes an incredibly vital point – while it is certainly appropriate to point out the historical evil done to the Jewish people by some denizens of the West, you ignore entirely the “other half” (actually much, much more than half) of Western society which has battled to overcome antisemitism and advance the goals of the Jewish people. Can you name any other society, outside of Israel itself (which is an inherent part of the “West”) which has done or is currently doing more than the “culturally Christian” West to reverse the mistakes of the past and advance the Cause of the Jewish people? Is there any where else in the world where Jews have as much freedom from oppression? What Hitler and other anti-Semites perpetrated, the rest of the West refused to tolerate, stepped in and at the expense of their own lives and resources put right. How about giving a little credit where it is due?
    You’re coming here and focusing endlessly on your “issues” is distracting us from what really needs to be done. Frankly, you *are* alienating people, people who are struggling mightily to have compassion for you despite your troll-like behavior of beating a dead horse and refusing to focus on the topic of the article. You are never going to prevent islam from making inroads against Israel and the Jewish people by harping endlessly about the historical evils of “culturally Christian” society. If you want allies, focus on our mutual Enemy, as opposed to attacking US all the time. Constantly expressing how perfidious we are is not exactly a way of encouraging us to strive for lofty goals.

    Remember: the Jewish people would be virtually extinct and the State of Israel non-existent if not for the actions of *some* Western Christians and cultural Christians. We are the majority. So cut us some slack.

    As an aside, OCD or not, anyone who wallows so thoroughly and continually in negativity is helping to worsen his own problem. What you focus on expands.

    I don’t know where or among whom you grew up, but you have a woefully inaccurate picture of what the vast majority of Christians actually believe and practice in their daily lives. I went to Catholic school in the 60’s, where we were taught emphatically by the nuns and priests that we must love, honor and respect the Jews as they are God’s Chosen People. This “blame the Jews for Jesus’ death” idea that you (and admittedly, with reason) have was specifically COUNTERED in my Catholic upbringing. The point was driven home that Jesus’ sacrifice was his choice and that the Jews’ role was strictly one of service to mankind in the matter. If you had more experience with/exposure to real Christian teaching and practice, as opposed to mere cultural Christianity, you would be aware of that.

    I look forward to seeing comments posted by you that deal with the issues outlined by the articles in question, without the continuous side-tracking. We *get it*, already.

  110. says

    “Judge your own self. Judge your own actions.”

    **********

    Yeah, thats what the Muslims keep tellin” us Dan.

    But I believe I’ll do as I please.

    And right now, what pleases me is taken’ a good hard look at YOU, Sweet Pea.

    Doin’ an awful lot “o PREACHIN’ for or Poor Misunderstood, habitually been picked’ on, by the likes “o me…

    Arrn’ cha?

    Funny, searching memory banks for ANY evidence that I’ve come across, in ANY experience in my life, of a genuine example of a Jew, trying to lay ANY sort of guilt trip on me…

    Nope. Cannot imagine such an occurance.

    Now, why is that?

  111. says

    Jan, I didn’t say antisemitism is a distraction; I said that Bielak’s concern with it, they way he mutates it into a predominantly Christian problem throughout history and now not only in his fevered mind causing horrible anti-Jewish hatred among non-Muslim non-Jews throughout the West, but also being one of the primary factors of the problem of Islam, as Western antisemites, again in his fevered conception, are more and more colluding with Muslims against the world.

    I’m sure you’ll agree that that is a distraction to the Counter-Jihad (not to mention to basic human reason).

  112. says

    duhswami

    you wrote –

    “If it was my boat, I would make it a tourist attraction and charge people a dollar a minute to sit in it and soak up the vibes…
    The FBI could monitor and get pictures and names of anyone who appeared to be soaking up too many vibes…”.

    Y’know, I think that if the CIA and FBI were on the ball – which they are not, alas – that is *exactly* the thing to do. Use it as bait..

    You then added:

    “Or, he could put it up for auction on e-bay…I bet he could get a lot of bucks for it…”.

    Actually, putting it up for auction on ebay could work exactly the same way as turning it into a ‘tourist attraction’. Bait to lure undesirables out into the open.

    There would, of course, be plenty of Infidel ‘trophy hunters’ attracted to such a thing; but there might well also be a lot of Mohammedans wanting to take it home.

  113. says

    Clarification:

    “Ask people (Western people) around you who think that Islam and Muslims are being maligned and that the U.S. is oppressing Muslims about what they think about these things and why it is they think that the U.S. is oppressing Muslims.”

    By “these things” I meant the thinking, by Western people around you, that Islam and Muslims are being maligned and that the U.S. is oppressing Muslims.

  114. says

    Correction:

    I, by mistake, incorrectly transcribed:

    “That is a fact that Jews have been able historically to state publicly”

    which should, instead, be:

    “That is a fact that Jews have not been able historically to state publicly”

  115. says

    Daniel, thank you for finally apologizing.

    “You have completely misunderstood me.
    And what you wrote in response to my comment is wrong.”
    If I misunderstood you I apologize, but I have no idea in what way I misunderstood you since you don’t say. I only pointed out your misrepresentation of Christianity based only on past actions of Christians (and not Chrisitan doctrine) and your falsely claiming people were “dismissing”, “Marginalizing” and “denying” what they were not.

    Let’s set aside these distractions and get back to discussing the dangers of Jihad.

  116. says

    Shister:

    One who speaks bullshit fluently in order to fool people out of money or other possesions, often associated with used-car salesmen
    – From The Urban Dictionary

    “One who speaks bullshit fluently in order to fool people”
    That pretty well sums you up, Sweet Pea.

    Rough breakdown of bullshit you spew:

    •80% demonizing Christians and Western Civilization in general

    •15% being “hurt” and “misunderstood”

    •3% “apologizing

    •and, wait for it, 2% off-hand mention of the “Islamist enemy”

    But the Islamists really aren’t your enemy are they Sweet Pea?

    If they were you would spend more time and effort denigrating them – but you don’t, do you? No, you just can’t wait to get into the next anti-Christian rant.

    So, if you are who you claim to be, you are an utter FOOL. Because you demonize your closest ally, the Christians.

    And if this is not the case, then you are a TROLL.

    So which is it Sweet Pea, are you a FOOL or a TROLL?

  117. says

    Davey: I agree, his apollogy does seem somewhat weakened by his saying my replies are wrong and misunderstanding. If they are, then what in the world is he apologizing for? We’ll have to see if he takes the hint and stops acting this way in future posts.

    Looking at his blog, and seeing that it’s pretty much the way he posts here of copy and pasting text, images and videos (minus the anti-Christian Rhetoric), perhaps that’s wishing too much.

  118. says

    It is a good website with a lot of facts well presented about the problem of Israel in a sea of an Islamic menace.

    One of his essays there, however — Why, and How, the West is vilifying Isreal — unfortunately lurches into the conspiracy theory to which we have been so massively with headlights flashing and horns honking been treated here.

    http://danielbielak.blogspot.com/2011/03/why-west-is-vilifying-israel-excerpts.html

    That essay examines a mountain of circumstantial evidence and its author feels bound by the straitjacket of his Box to draw only one conclusion: that the West’s increasing favoritism to the “Palestinians” (and quickly on their sandaled (or cheesy-Western-knockoff-tennis-shoed) heels and concomitantly its increasing vilification of Israel represents evidence that the same antisemitism that inspired Nazi Germany (and that inspired all Christianity from when to when?) is now inspiring this geopolitical and economic and cultural disposition to Israel and its enemies.

    This exemplifies vividly one of my points I keep hammering, about the “Explanatory Vacuum”. When for various reasons one remains oblivious to the massively sociopolitical phenomenon of the paradigm shift that brought PC MC to the fore as the mainstream and dominant fashion of our era — and when one is oblivious to the nature of that worldview of PC MC, and when one sees major problems unfolding (as with Israel and its enemies, and as with the Islamic revival of global jihad), and when lastly one sees our own West behaving like a myopic retarded fool in response to these problems — one will pass Go and go straight to Conspiracy Theory.

  119. says

    Been typing a wee fast of late. Correction in bold:

    “…that the West’s increasing favoritism to the “Palestinians” (and quickly on their sandaled (or cheesy-Western-knockoff-tennis-shoed) heels Muslims in general, and concomitantly its increasing vilification of Israel …

  120. says

    Awake: Good post. I agree

    Ladies and gentlemen, notice how “Daniel” once again writes long posts that say very little, telling us what we already know (the collusion of far lefist westerners and Islam, misrepresentations of Isreal and the IDF in western media, that Hamas calls for genocide against Jews) and refuses to actually answer other people’s arguments. I see no answers to how I was “wrong” about his posts, an actknowledgement that those misportrayals are actknowledged and REJECTED by anti-jihadists here (as I said, Daniel is preching to the choir), or proof of how Christianity is actually innately anti-semetic, nor any sort of meaningful apology for past lies about Christianity that have been pointed out. Apparently he can’t take the hint.

  121. says

    Um, Ok. I’m just baffled.

    If you agree, then how does this jive with your previous statement that “The religion Christianity is, therein, for each one of those reasons, and for all of those reasons, inherently anti-Jewish.”?

    What about your silly false “tenets” that you listed that I objected to that you never disavowed?

    Also, why didn’t you say that you agree after my VERY FIRST POST? what was this all about? This is what I’ve been saying ALL ALONG, so I don’t know why all of a sudden you say this.

    If you agree unsarcasticly that anti-semite Christians are disobeying Christianity, and while they might be Christians cannot be fairly seen as representatives of Christianity, why did you put “Disobeying Christ” in quotes, and say “according to the paradigm that you hold.”, which seems to imply it is only based on my opinion?

    Also, why did you say it was “dishonest” for me to say so? (I over and over again actknowledged that Christians such as Nazis did terrible things, but over and over said they were disobeying Christ, but only now you agree, which as I said, is baffling.)

    What was all the false claims that I was being “malicious” and “verbally attacking” you about?

    I’m not saying that it’s not good if we aren’t in disagreement, I’m just confused by this.

  122. says

    Typo correction:

    “…the religious texts of the religion Christianity.”

    And:

    I accidentally repeated the listing of two of the books that I listed.

  123. says

    Hi, Foolster41 …

    You’ve made many excellent points, and I wholly agree with your summation.

    I would like to add a question, and that’s whether or not the Nazi’s were in fact Christians, and I would answer that with a resounding NO! …so would Bruce Walker.

    Robert has many links posted on the right-hand side of his homepage; with one from the “American Thinker”, and Bruce Walker has written a truly *excellent* essay on this very issue, here:

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    “The Nazis and Christianity”

    My recent American Thinker article “The Godless Delusion” generated a substantial volume of email and comment from atheists. Although I have directly responded to some of the people, assertions they have made — some politely and others rudely — require a detailed response. I have decided to focus on one particular theme that was most common: Many atheists presume that the Nazis were a weird variation of Christianity.

    The sources that I use come from very old books, rather than Wikipedia. I own these books and the books were written during the very years in which Nazism came to power. The authors of these books came from a wide variety of perspectives — Christian, Jewish, atheist, Marxist and the like.

    Christianity had declined severely in Germany at the time the Nazis came to power, which is why the Nazis were able to come to power. In his book, The Dictators, Richard Overy states that in the decades preceding the First World War Germany was becoming increasingly secular, and that after that war, from 1918 to 1931, 2.4 million Evangelical Christians formally renounced their faith as well as almost half a million Catholics. In Prussia, only 21% of the population took communion and in Hamburg only five percent of the population took communion. Before Hitler, German religious leaders were publicly condemning the rise of moral relativism and decline of traditional religious values.

    Weimar Germany largely had abandoned Christianity and increasingly was embracing hedonism, Marxism and paganism. There, decline of Christianity in Germany led directly to the rise of Nazism. Professor Henri Lichtenberger in his 1937 book, The Third Reich, describes the religious life of the Weimar Republic as a place in which the large cities were “spiritual cemeteries” with almost no believers at all, except for those who were members of the clergy. The middle class went through the motions, but lacked all living faith. The workers, influenced by socialism, were suspicious of the church. Even in the countryside, preachers had little influence on the people. In the 1938 book, The War Against God, by Sidney Dark and R.S. Essex, describes pre-Nazi antipathy toward Christianity by noting that churches had lost all their vitality and that their services were lifeless. Mower, in his 1938 book, Germany Puts the Clock Back, wrote that by 1920, God and Christianity had been in steady decline, a process that had begun in 1860. Mower talks about a culture not so much casual as vicious about sexuality. He writes of art sickened into atonal music, about the absence of any sense of sin, about entire graduating classes in high school turning up for birth control devices, and about the commonplace occurrence of abortion.

    This hostility or indifference toward Christianity in Europe, and especially in Germany, led naturally to a profound anti-Christian sentiment in Nazi Germany. Nazis, more than most Germans, were indifferent or hostile to Christianity. Hitler originally appeared to just ignore Christianity. Dark and Essex write in their 1938 book that Mein Kampf has few passages which in any way refer to religion, none that refer to Hitler’s own personal religion, or to the teaching of the Bible, nor any branch of Christian teaching. Jacob Marcus in his 1934 book by the Union of American Hebrew Congregations notes that “Though his parents were both Catholics, Hitler himself has apparently no interest in any organized religion.” Marcus also has an entire section in his book about Nazi “anti-Christian anti-Semitism.” Rauschning in 1938 wrote
    “The purpose of the National Socialism fight against Christianity is the same: the total destruction of the last and most deep-rooted support of the forces of conservation. The destruction of the spirit of Christianity in Germany is certainly more far-reaching than appears on the surface…Such vestiges of living Christianity as remain are steadily degenerating in the direction of a superficial and unthinking deism” and that ultimate goal as “…the total abolition of Christianity, which is not a mere philosophical fad of the National Socialists but an iron necessity of their system.”
    Within a year of taking power, Hitler was saying:

    “Christianity was incapable of uniting the Germans, and that only an entirely new world-theory was capable of doing so.”

    Also within a year of the Nazis taking power, The Twenty-Five Theses of the German Religion, a conscious modeling of the twenty-five points of the Nazi program, was published in Germany. Thesis XV of that Nazi publication states:

    “The Ethic of the German Religion condemns all belief in inherited sin, as well as the Jewish-Christian teaching of a fallen world. Such a teaching is not only non-Germanic and non-German, it is immoral and nonreligious. Whoever preaches this menaces the morality of the people.”

    In February 1937 Hanns Kerrl, Minister of Religion in the Third Reich, said:

    “The question of the divinity of Christ is ridiculous and inessential. A new answer has arisen as to what Christ and Christianity are: Adolph Hitler.”

    University Nazis in Keil wrote in 1935:

    “We Germans are heathens and want no more Jewish religion in our Germany. We no longer believe in the Holy Ghost; we believe in the Holy Blood.”

    Preaching from the pulpit against Rosenberg’s racial theories was forbidden by the Nazis and Law 130 threatened penalties against any priest who preached “against the interest of the state.” Göring ordered that the Hitler Gruss (the Hitler salute) was the only religious gesture allowed.

    Just as Nazi propaganda made odious caricatures of lecherous Jewish preying on young German maidens, Nazi propaganda made identical caricatures of lecherous priests preying on young German maidens. In August 1935, the bishops of Germany presented at Fulda a pastoral letter warning of the Nazi “campaign of annihilation against Christianity” and a year after that Bishop Bornewasser publicly spoke about the Christian men and women who were persecuted by the Nazis because of their faith. On November 4, 1936, the Nazis ordered the removal of crucifixes from schools in the Oldenburg area on the grounds that these were “symbols of superstition.” This order was rescinded only after Nazis were faced with determined local opposition. Then despite rescinding the Nazi prohibition of these “symbols of superstition,” in December 1936 Nazi bureaucrats simply removed crucifixes anyway in Munsterland. When Christians replaced them in some schools, they were arrested by the Nazis.

    Nordland, a Nazi magazine, called the Sermon on the Mount “the first Bolshevist manifesto.” The principle of the National Socialist state, Hitler told an audience in 1937, was “not in Christianity nor in social theory but in the unified people’s community,” and the same year Himmler banned all Confessing Church seminaries and instruction and he closed all private religious schools two years later.

    In 1937 Stephen H. Roberts wrote in his book, The House That Hitler Built, that the hostility between Nazism and churches began as soon as the Nazis came to power, and that it quickly became impossible to be a good Catholic and a good Nazi. Some Nazis were overtly and clearly anti-Christian. Others were simply silent. Hitler, however, did nothing to stop the drumbeat of pagan propaganda within the Nazi Party which included Heinrich Himmler, Baldur von Schirach, Alfred Rosenberg, Dr. Frick and many others, some of whom formally renounced their Christianity. The Confessional groups of Christians –Protestants who had refused to join the “German Christian” movement — sent Hitler a letter in May 1936 asking whether he intended to “de-Christianize the German people.” The response was wholly unsatisfactory, with the Christian clergy believing that Hitler had accepted honors due only to God.”

    Nazis hated and mocked Christianity. Most particularly, Nazis loathed the ideas that faith, not race, was critical and that Christians had a duty to love all people, including Jews. Christian clergymen were harassed, dismissed, arrested, tortured and murdered for defending these beliefs. It is hard to see how less robust Christian faith would have made the lot of Jews easier in Nazi Germany. It is impossible not to see that, except for brave Christians, the lot of German Jews (some of whom escaped the Holocaust) would have been worse.

    And …

    Christianity is perfect anti-Nazism and the Nazis knew it. Members of the Hitler Youth were forbidden to join church organizations and membership in the Hitler Youth was more or less compulsory. Hitler Youth meetings were deliberately scheduled to coincide with Sunday church services. Hitler Youth were taught to be rebellious against their parents, contemptuous of religion and to use crude and offensive language. Lowenstein in 1941 wrote that in the Hitler Youth the neo-pagan cult began to fill the gap which was the result of a conscious erosion of Christianity.

    The Nazis even forbade parents to give their children Christian names and ordered babies instead to be given names like Dietrich, Otto or Siegfried. The teaching of Christianity by parents in the home was forbidden. Churches were not allowed to collect funds for charitable work. The Nazis transferred Catholic clergy to Protestant areas and Protestant clergy to Catholic areas. Nazis smeared excrement on church altars and church doors, desecrated shrines, and threw statutes of saints into dung piles; and when synagogues were not available to attack and loot, churches were the target with Nazis yelling: “Down with Christians and Jews!” In many places, historic church feast days and holidays were banned and even the display of religious flags and banners was outlawed; often Nazis cordoned off areas necessary for church pilgrimages and offered free beer and sausages for secular events that deliberately coincided with church festivals.

    Above excerpt:

    http://www.americanthinker.com/2007/11/the_nazis_and_christianity.html

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    The remainder of Bruce’s essay offers even more historic facts proving that the Nazi’s were NOT Christians. At this point anyone thinking that the Nazi’s were Christians are now willfully ignoring the truth.

  124. says

    Excellent post. We’ll see if Daniel is willing to step back, actually read what people are saying and consider things honestly and see how is making factually and logically dishonest statements, or if he will continue to appeal to emotion as a victim for being disagreed with and repeat greivences as straw-man arguments.

  125. says

    Thank you, Foolster41. Yes, we’ll see if Daniel come backs to consider things more honestly now, but I kind of doubt it.

    I just did a little digging into past comments hes made and found many of the same arguments, then, as he’s making now:

    http://www.jihadwatch.org/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/br0nc0s/managed-mt/mt-cp.cgi?__mode=view&blog_id=1&id=7399

    One thread in particular, back in Nov ’12, where Daniel can be seen riding his hobby-horse there:

    http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/11/vatican-hosts-hizballah-top-dogs-maronite-patriarch-declares-support-for-jihad-against-israel.html#comment-919972

    Oy vey!

  126. says

    Thank you, LemonLime; and I’ve posted Bruce Walker’s essay from American Thinker before in connection to, I think, some of Daniel Bielak’s past grievances, but I can’t be sure. I tried to find an old post of mine where I referenced this same essay, but I was unable to locate it. Anyway …

    And I read your above comment and see that you’ve addressed the same issue that Bruce Walker did. Great comment, btw!

    Yeah and it seems that Daniel is only intent on cramming his way of thinking about said issue down our throats with little–or no interest, in rethinking his position. I make this determination not only from what hes written on this thread, but in reading through many of his past comments from 2012, here:

    http://www.jihadwatch.org/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/br0nc0s/managed-mt/mt-cp.cgi?__mode=view&blog_id=1&id=7399

    And Daniel does appear to be completely stuck in the past and haunted by ghosts, really …

  127. says

    Thanks Champ; it does seem to be that way with Daniel.

    On another note, I’m having difficulty accessing old JW comments. Often when I find one on a Google search, I get an error message when I try to open it.

    And on that special page you told me about, while it shows about 20 comments by whoever’s page it is, when I try to click on “More entries by so-and-so”, I get this error message:

    Not Found

    The requested URL /author/lemonlime/ was not found on this server.

    Do you have any way around this?

    Thanks…

  128. says

    Sorry, LemonLime, I get the same message when I click on “More Entries by Champ”:

    “Not Found

    The requested URL /author/champ/ was not found on this server.”

    And I get the same message on other posters, as well. I even tried right-clicking to see if that gained entry, but no …

    So I think the “More Entries by Champ” is merely there to show the last 50 comments presented.

    Yeah it would be nice to find more of my old comments–as I used to do, with the old system– because this new system does not allow me to do that. It’s kinda frustrating.

    Take care :)

  129. says

    Ah I see, Champ — Daniel has been such an infrequent commenter, his main page actually goes back to 2012, enabling you access to that November post. Thanks.

  130. says

    Hi, Foolster41 …

    Remember what Jesus told His followers:

    “If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.” — John 15:18-19

    Take care, my friend :)

  131. says

    Daniel, are you getting psychological therapy? I ask out of concern for your wellbeing. You exhibit signs of morbid depression.

    You are obviously troubled and in agonizing emotional pain. Please let us know that you are not trying to “go it alone”. There IS real help out there.

    Take it from someone who knows.

  132. says

    Thank you very much, CGW.

    Yes, I have been in anguish. The way you described me is how I have been feeling. But I felt much better after you wrote to me. And I am feeling much better after you have written to me. And I have been seeing a therapist because of the OCD that I’m suffering from and because of the situation that I’m in personally and emotionally because of the OCD that I’m suffering from.

    But I do feel all alone. And the situation in the world and my kind of living on-line and constantly getting involved in the situation in the world has exacerbated the bad situation that I’ve been in — the horribleness that I have felt.

    But thank you very much for your kind words. They made me feel better. They made me feel less alone. Thank you for your compassion.

    I’ll try to take care of myself.

    Thank you again for your compassion.

    Dan

  133. says

    Daniel,

    Believe me, I have been there. It is indescribably horrible and NO ONE who hasn’t experienced it can truly imagine how difficult it really, truly is. Immense emotional suffering like that becomes unrelenting and inescapable, with only brief, fleeting moments of respite. I feel your desperation. I remember it all too well. Please don’t think I’m pitying you, I just want you to know that is CAN and WILL be overcome. Having the right support system is vital, and although I’m certain it sounds trite, if you hang around here at JW and try not to be inflammatory you’ll find some wonderful, supportive friends. I know I have. You *must* realize that virtually every regular here
    1). Acknowledges the harm done to the Jews by Christians and everyone else throughout history
    2). Values and admires the Jewish people, not in the least part due to their tremendous contributions to the world throughout history
    3). Staunchly supports the existence, survival and success of the Jewish state of Israel.

    The problem we’re having is that many, if not all, of us feel terrible about the historical treatment of the Jewish people but, since our own attitudes are so vehemently in opposition to that history, it is painful to be “blamed” for it now, similar to the guilt we whites are made to feel about slavery. We feel like, “Hey, it wasn’t me, I didn’t do it, I don’t feel that way, why are you blaming me for it”, etc. Can you see my point? We’re made to feel responsible for a past that is impossible to change and in response, we are firmly committed to changing the future in that regard, but we’re given no credit for it.

    As a victim, I realize that it’s difficult to put yourself in our place vis-a-vis the crimes of our civilizational forebears. But think about the slavery analogy. Try to see why we’re so defensive re your criticism of “culturally Christian” western civilization, which although flawed, is still the best there’s been thus far. Is there room for improvement? Of course, but we’ll get there.

    Please try to let your guard down and be embraced by us. We really are on your side.

    This jihad business is distressing. Sometimes the stress of it can add to the already immense psychological burden you’re carrying. You wonder, “Am I actually making myslef worse by fixating on how bad things are in the world and how hopeless it all seems?” The key is to try to intellectualize the issues and remove yourself emotionally from their impact (quite difficult to do, I’ll acknowledge), and connecting with others here helps infinitely.

    Try this: start posting opinions or questions on comments threads entirely unrelated to Israel and anything else that is a big emotional trigger for you, and don’t post anything related to those triggers (such as the crimes committed by “culturally Christian societies”) but pick something more emotionally “neutral” for you. I don’t know, like regarding sharia punishments such as hand-chopping, for example. Try doing that a few times and see what happens.

    I wish only the very best for you. I’m going to look for you here in the threads ad check up on you.

    Be well.

    Best Regards,

    CGW

  134. says

    Good post. Daniel needs to take a big deep breathe, realize we are not his (or Isreal’s) enemy, and that we are NOT intentionally misrepresenting what he says, nor attacking him. I only ask for the truth be acknowledged that Christianity does not in any way teach anti-semitism (or at least present proof that is does), and that any anti-semetism is against the teaching of Christianity.

    If he wants to continue on this conversation like a rational person he needs to write conscisely in response to what people say, and provide facts to back up his assertions instead of resorting to inflamitory hyperbole anologes to Islamists, and long repetitive posts that only repeat what we do not deny. (a sincere apology (not “I’m sorry you’re offended but it’s true”) for those things would be a good start!)

    He also needs to actual be more specific in his challenges (what “obvious basic facts” am I denying? How did I slander him? I see no specific answers to the challenges to his post in how his decrying of leftist anti-semetism applies to me, or clarification on his position of whether Christianity is or isn’t anti-semetic, or clarification or retraction of his list of “Christian tenets”) but he claims he is being misrepresented when the problem is he is not being concise in his writing, and so of course people are going to misunderstand him.

  135. says

    CGW,

    Thank you very much for your reply to me.

    Thank you very much for your understanding about how I have felt.

    And,

    You wrote:

    “The problem we’re having is that many, if not all, of us feel terrible about the historical treatment of the Jewish people”

    Your saying that makes me feel much better. Thank you.

    “but, since our own attitudes are so vehemently in opposition to that history, it is painful to be ‘blamed’ for it now, similar to the guilt we whites are made to feel about slavery.”

    I completely understand that. I’m not meaning to blame you. I appreciate very much your attitudes being so vehemently in opposition to that history. Your attitudes being so vehemently in opposition to that history is a comfort to me. Please don’t feel guilty about that history. You don’t have anything to do with that history. And I’m not meaning to blame you.

    I’m just trying to communicate to you my understanding of why the Western world — not those of you here, and not others who also are supporting Israel — is attacking Israel and colluding with the Islamic supremacist political movement.

    “We feel like, ‘Hey, it wasn’t me, I didn’t do it, I don’t feel that way, why are you blaming me for it’, etc. Can you see my point?”

    Yes. I completely understand. And I’m not meaning to blame you. So please don’t feel that I’m trying to blame you.

    “We’re made to feel responsible for a past that is impossible to change and in response,”

    I’m not meaning to make you feel responsible for that past. So please don’t feel responsible for that past, and please don’t feel that I’m trying to make you feel responsible for that past.

    “we are firmly committed to changing the future in that regard”

    I appreciate that. Thank you.

    “but we’re given no credit for it.”

    Well, I appreciate that you’re doing that.

    And it’s good that you’re doing that, regardless of whatever credit anyone may give you. It’s good for you, and it’s good for everyone else. It’s good for me. Thank you.

    “Try to see why we’re so defensive re your criticism of ‘culturally Christian’ western civilization, which although flawed, is still the best there’s been thus far. Is there room for improvement? Of course, but we’ll get there.”

    I completely understand why, particularly now, ‘culturally Christian’ Western people — my fellow Westerners, my fellow Americans, who, unlike me, are of ‘culturally Christian’ European heritage — my fellow human beings who, unlike me, happen to be of ‘culturally Christian’ European heritage, and who, like me, happen to be Western — are so defensive re my criticism of ‘culturally Christian’ Western civilization – I understand that that defensiveness is particularly because of the current threat of the Islamic supremacist political movement (and the current “Leftist” undermining of beneficial aspects of Western civilization, and, as the most detrimental part of that, the current “Leftist” collusion with the Islamic supremacist political movement). And I am completely aware that Western civilization is the most beneficial of the large civilizations that are existing in the world today. And I am completely aware that, moreover, the undermining of Western civilization by the Islamic supremacist political movement and by the contemporary “Leftist” (Marxist) movement is very bad — detrimental to everyone.

    But, the thing is, it’s the Jewish people — vis-a-vis Israel — who are most being attacked and who are most under siege — by the Western world (the members of the governments of Western countries, Western journalists, certain Western academics, the members of Western contemporary so-called “Human Rights organizations”, etc.) — and by the Islamic supremacist political movement. (And, as part of that, the Western general population, and I think especially the younger members of the Western general population, are largely believing and propagating the lies being propagated against Israel by the members of the governments of Western countries, Western journalists, certain Western academics, the members of Western contemporary so-called “Human Rights organizations”, etc., and, therefore, are largely believing and propagating the lies being propagated against Israel by the members of the Islamic supremacist political movement.)

    And the thing is is that Western culture is Jewish culture. That is to say, the core beneficial moral principals of Western culture are Jewish culture. And Jewish people have greatly contributed to Western civilization in other ways, as I think that you alluded to in what you expressed. And Jewish culture has been influenced by certain aspects of non-Jewish Western cultures. Western culture is Jewish culture and Jewish culture is Western culture.

    I’m just trying to show that the Western attacking of Israel and the Western collusion with the Islamic supremacist political movement are a result of Western anti-Jewish bigotry (held by the members of the governments of Western countries, Western journalists, certain Western academics, the members of Western contemporary so-called “Human Rights organizations”, etc.) (And the Western attacking of Israel and the Western collusion with the Islamic supremacist political movement are also a result of a deep complex form of Stockholm syndrome that Jewish people, in general, are experiencing to various degrees.)

    But, moreover, I’m just trying to show that the Western attacking of Israel and the Western collusion with the Islamic supremacist political movement are one and the same, and that stopping the Western attacking of Israel will stop the Western collusion with the Islamic supremacist political movement, and that telling, to Western people, and, especially, and most importantly, to American people, the essential basic facts of the history and current reality of the situation that Israel is in will stop the Western attacking of Israel, and will stop the Western collusion with the Islamic supremacist political movement.

    And thank you for everything else that you wrote in your message to me. I appreciate your understanding and compassion and kindness very much.

    I’ll try to take your advice. I’ll try to take your advice, if I contribute here more.

    But I’ll try to take it easy from now on and not get so involved in the world.

    But I hope that ‘culturally Christian’ Western readers here will try to understand what I’ve tried to communicate about the situation in the world.

    And, again, CGW, I appreciate your compassion very much. I appreciate your kindness very much. I appreciate your understanding very much. Your understanding, and your compassion, and your kindness have been a big comfort to me. Your understanding, and your compassion, and your kindness have been a big help to me. Your messages to me have been a big comfort to me. Your messages to me have been a big help to me. Thank you.

    Best regards,

    Dan