China: Tiananmen Square jihad attack revenge for police raid on Xinjiang mosque

“Permission to fight has been given to those who are being fought, because they were wronged. And indeed, Allah is competent to give them victory..” — Qur’an 22:39

“Tiananmen Attack Linked to Police Raid on a Mosque in Xinjiang,” by Andrew Jacobs for the New York Times, November 7:

Could the attackers responsible for a deadly assault on the heart of the Chinese capital on Oct. 28 have been motivated by revenge? That is the theory offered up by a former local official from the hometown of Usmen Hasan, the man identified by the Chinese police as the driver of a car that struck and killed two tourists before going up in flames at Tiananmen Square.

Mr. Hasan, his wife and his mother — all of them ethnic Uighurs from the far western region of Xinjiang “” died at the scene, according to the official media.

In a telephone interview with Radio Free Asia on Wednesday, Hamut Turdi, the former chief of Yengi Aymaq village in southwestern Xinjiang, described a police raid last year during which the authorities demolished parts of a new mosque that Mr. Hasan had helped finance.

After deeming the addition illegal, he said the government dispatched a demolition crew, backed by 100 armed police officers, who cut off the building’s water supply and destroyed an enclosed area for preparing ritual burials.

“I think it is highly possible that Usmen Hesen did this to take revenge for our villagers,” Mr. Turdi told Radio Free Asia, which is financed by the United States government. In the aftermath of the incident, Mr. Turdi says he was dismissed as village chief after 22 years in the position. A man who picked up the phone on Thursday at the local police headquarters declined to comment.

The account by a well-placed former official, albeit one with a possible ax to grind, potentially complicates the Chinese government’s efforts to brand the attack on Tiananmen Square as a strike by Islamic separatists who it says were directed by overseas jihadists. Although they have offered little in the way of proof, senior Chinese leaders as well as the official news media have sought to blame the attack on the East Turkestan Islamic Movement, a shadowy group whose ability to strike within China has been questioned by some Western analysts.

In recent days, China has launched a propagandistic fusillade against those who question its central narrative. When CNN and The Wall Street Journal ran commentaries criticizing the lack of transparency surrounding the events and raising the possibility that repressive policies in Xinjiang might have played a role, Communist Party-affiliated news outlets like Global Times, Xinhua and China Daily ran editorials calling them “vile,” “biased” and “way out of line.”

On Monday, the government expanded its attack, criticizing the White House’s apparent reluctance to label the incident an act of terrorism, at least during State Department briefings in which a spokesperson was pointedly asked to do so, according to Xinhua. In a commentary published on Thursday, the news agency accused the United States of maintaining a “double standard” on terrorism, and thus “condoning” terrorist attacks on Chinese soil. “To rationalize terrorism is to invite more of it,” Xinhua wrote.

No doubt about that. And whatever the U.S. government’s stance toward China may be, there is no doubt that it is reluctant to label acts of jihad “terrorism” — witness the ongoing denial about the Fort Hood jihad murders in 2009.

China: Islamic jihadists attack police station, 11 dead
China: Muslims who carried out Tiananmen Square jihad car bombing swore to join jihad and visited Square thrice before attack
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Comments

  1. says

    ‘RETALIATION IS OBLIGATORY’ when Muslims are killed ‘without right’.

    Charming religion, isn’t it? Vigilantes are OBLIGATED to commit murder in revenge under Sharia law.

    This is obligatory because the lawgiver Allah says so, not because it is the reasonable idea of human scholars and legislators for the benefit of real people.

    Allah passes down commands such as ‘have sex with little girls’…’beat your wife’…these laws are ‘good’ because the lawgiver is above reason.

  2. says

    I hate to say this, but there’s a part of me that bursts with Schadenfreude over things like this. When I was young, every young radical wore a Mao button, hung on every nonsensical bit of “anti-imperialist” propaganda from Beijing, and even agreed with one of Mao’s pronouncements that Americans should move back to Europe to leave the land to the Indians. You could even have a “liberal humanist” pacifist break your glasses and nose with them for suggesting that Mao was an imperialist himself in Tibet (and now see all the “Free Tibet” stickers in campus parking lots!) and Sharki Turkistan.

    Of course, those same anti-imperialist radicals held that the Tibetans were “Chinese”, Mao had “liberated the serfs” (after all, Anna Louise Strong told them so), and any separation of Tibet and China was due to perfidious Anglo-Saxon meddling. And now their kids think the Dalai Lama is “cool”.

    There’s a woman I know who is all so eager to help Hmong handicraft people who’ve resettled here and oh-so sympathetic to their plight, when back in the days of the New Mobe, she eagerly cursed their fathers as “Stone Age killers for the CIA”.

    Yes, it’s jihad that’s impelling this kind of attack. But I’m glad that WSJ and CNN are criticizing the lack of transparency around China’s handling of ANY kind of dissent. Maybe having come of age aroundd the time of America’s civil rights movement is showing, but I always found Communist China’s treatment of its minorities/subject peoples to be a repellent mixture of self-righteousness, patronizing, exploitation, hypocrisy, and enabling by Western Leftist media shills. If Islam goads the Uighurs to express how sick they are of it, I’m not surprised that the jihad preachers have found willing hearers. Maybe something else will tick off the Yi in Yunnan. Come to think of it, Wukan, in Guangdong, suggests there may be a lot of Han who are sick of the shell game, too.

    Yes, I understand something of China’s nationalism. It’s a little like Germany’s in the wake of the Napoleonic invasions down to the interwar years, only on a larger scale, more intense, and with more extensive and complicated minority peoples and regions to boot. And it has some of the same “kick me, I’ll kick my dog” mentality, too.

  3. says

    China: Tiananmen Square jihad attack revenge for police raid on Xinjiang mosque
    …………………………….

    As soon as I read about this attack in the New York Times, I wondered if it was Jihad. I combed the article, but the perpetrator hadn’t been identified yet.

    That the attacker was named Usmen Hasan”a Mohammedan name”tells us a great deal all by itself.

    Attacking Tiananmen Square”a central symbol of Chinese power and one whose name is recognized all over the world, is right in line with other Jihad attacks in Dar-al-Harb.

    That this repulsive Jihadist chose to take his wife and mother along with him should come as no surprise, either. One only wonders whether they were also his victims”in a combination Jihad attack/”Honor Killing””or, even more likely, if these Muslimahs were as eager as he was to slaughter the Infidels.

    A grotesque horror, in either case. God, I hate Islam.

  4. says

    The Communist Chinese regime has demolished many a church, raided many a gathering of ‘unregistered’ (that is, rejecting total state control) Christians, arrested many a pastor, beaten people up, imprisoned them.

    Yet not *once* has any Chinese Christian, whether Catholic or Protestant, gone and sought ‘revenge’ as this Muslim did, by blowing things up with cars full of explosives.

    And that is the difference between the Christians and (irrespective of ethnicity) the Muslims.

  5. says

    Disgusting, Hamad TURDi is a turd of the first order. I do like the way the Chinese will deal with this. Uighars are all gonna die. We should really watch and learn but alas, ain’t gonna happen so shari’a continues to creep, and everyone save a few look the other way, apologize, believe the propaganda and do nothing.
    The whole attack as all attacks by these savages is awful

  6. says

    I do not know where on earth you get the idea that I think teaching a child to believe in god is on the same level of abuse sexually abusing or molesting a child. I think we both know the difference.
    I do however think educating a child about religion is completely different to telling a child this is how it is and this is what you should believe. I believe that any parent no matter what religion they are, telling a child you are a christian or you are a muslim is wrong.
    Education a child is to teach them how to think and not what to think.
    If for arguments sake i invent something like lets say fairies at the bottom of the garden and i tell my child you must believe in this or you will go to hell. This is exactly what religion is, children are told this is how it is and you are a Christian and you have to go to church, and you have to love jesus.
    All of these things I agree are not on the same level as someone sexually abusing a child but they are still harmful as far as they are taking away choice. The seed is being planted from a very early age and this is when the most damage is caused. Some children go on to just believe it for the rest of their lives because they have been told this is how it is, this is the truth. They never even question it. It baffles me that a human being can brainwash their own child with something that has no evidence whatsoever.
    Do you not think what I am saying is reasonable?

  7. says

    Sorry but I have to ask this question. Is cutting the off the foreskin of a baby not abuse? This surly should be against the law.

  8. says

    Most Children brought up by Christian parents are not free to worship. They are told the must worship or they will be punished by god if they don’t on judgement day. What sort of freedom is this when you are telling a child if you dont believe in this you will go to hell?
    I think you should be free to choose what you believe in as a mature adult, but to poison a kids mind with threats of punishment for not accepting Jesus. This is extremely damaging to a child’s mind abd this is exactly what churches all over the world are doing.
    Why dont you bring your child up with no religion in their lives but tell them some people believe in this religion or that religion abd some people dobt even believe in any religion and let them decide when they are mature adults? The reason is because you a so selfish and self centered, you think it is your god given right to make your child hold the same beliefs as you.

  9. says

    Are you seriously suggesting that without religion we would have no morals? We don’t need religion to tell us what is right or wrong , or causes harm to another person. The point you are trying to make about reading mythical stories to my daughter has no comparison to telling a child this is your religion this is how it all is and this is what you should believe in for the rest of your life . The stories end as just a story she has a brain and is encouraged to question what’s real and what isnt, this is where the the big difference is.
    Stealing and murdering causes harm to people so this is heathly to teach it is fact. But I can also say I don’t think we will be needing any lessons about not murdering people.
    As a human speicies we have evolved and our morals have evolved along with us to coexist in this world some of these morals have came from religion and some haven’t . But that fact of the matter is teaching a child to base the whole of there lives on a book that has absolutely zero evidence of truth is mental abuse . Just because some of our morals happen to come from the bible doesnt make god any more real than a fairytale.

  10. says

    Religious indoctrination of children is desired by christianity for life long control over them. This kind of indoctrination not only teaches falsehoods, but it severely impairs a child’s ability to think for himself or herself. Indoctrinated children will grow up to be adults who are easily manipulated by unscrupulous religious leaders. Religious indoctrination is crippling. It is a form of child abuse

  11. says

    ”Religious indoctrination of children is desired by christianity for life long control over them. This kind of indoctrination not only teaches falsehoods, but it severely impairs a child’s ability to think for himself or herself. Indoctrinated children will grow up to be adults who are easily manipulated by unscrupulous religious leaders. Religious indoctrination is crippling. It is a form of child abuse”

    I find it curious that your blanket, and if I may say so, uninformed, condemnation of Christianity as resulting in ” Indoctrinated children (who) will grow up to be adults who are easily manipulated by unscrupulous religious leaders. Religious indoctrination is crippling. It is a form of child abuse” is applied by you **only** to Christianity, and not to islam.

    Christianity, in fact, positively encourages questioning of doctrines, the Bible, and what people perceive to be divine truths.

    As gravenimage has noted, there is a tradition of reasoning, and imaginative thinking in Judeo-Christian theology, culture, and philosophy.

    Christianity also encourages representational art, music, empirical scientific reasoning, and the concept of ”do as you would be done by”, monasticism, as an individual’s personal relationship with God, as do Hindus and Bhuddists.

    islam on the other hand, definitely not only encourages religious indoctrination, but positively demands it, and not only discourages, but actively **punishes** any questioning of its doctrines, the Koran, or the character of the so-called ‘prophet’ mohammmed.

    ” …Indoctrinated children will grow up to be adults who are easily manipulated by unscrupulous religious leaders. ”

    Yes, indeed. One has only to think of all those pious mohammedans who went on hysterical and murderous rampages over the publication of cartoons of mohammed, the film, the ”Innocence of muslims”, the rumoured mishandling of korans by the US military, and the burning of korans by an American pastor. Not to mention those mohammedans who are **indoctrinated** by unscrupulous imams to strap on suicide vests, and murder innocents.

    How strange that I can’t think of **any** ‘indoctrinated’ Christians who have done the same, or have been manipulated by unscrupulous bishops, vicars, ministers, to roam the streets murdering and burning because an ‘artist’ produced Christ on the cross, up ended in a bottle of piss, or painted a picture of Christ’s Mother using faeces as his medium. Not even over Monty Python and the ”Life of Brian”.

    No-one is demanding that you believe in Christian doctrines on pain of death, conversion, or dhimmitude.

    Rail against Christianity all you want, but your condemnation of Christianity for religious indoctrination, with nary a word to say about islam, marks you, at the least, as intellectually highly dishonest, and totally blinkered by your hatred of Christianity.

  12. says

    I did say in the very beginning abd I do believe Islam far more violent than any other religion on earth. But getting back to the very first point I was making in the beginning was to claim Islam = devil worshippers and Christianity = god worshippers is totally meaningless.
    They are both nonsense. Please tell me is your god the same evil god of the old testemant.
    Did this same god realise he f****d it up the first time around. Is he so imparfect he actually made a mistake?
    Of course I hate Islam this is the whole reason I read this blog every day but a lot of Christians on here like to hang onto the oh our god is tge real god and theirs isnt.
    Well I’m afraid your god is about as real Allah. He is a figment of your imagination. And you want your kids to grow up believing. In one big fairytale.

  13. says

    Childrent should be taught to question absolutely anything at all. Religion plants the seed so early by telling them something is true. What chance does this give them.

  14. says

    I actually don’t believe in a personal creator but when you separate the god of the old testemant. To the new , how can you . It’s the same god according to Christians Muslims and Jews . What debt does the west owe Christianity? Please tell me what morals we get from god .

  15. says

    One further point, before I wash my hands of this idiot for good; the concept of the Golden Rule, is present in every major religion in the world, **except** for islam.

    C.S. Lewis, in his book, the ”Abolition of Man”, calls it the Tao, and further refines it to include moral concepts of good and evil, right and wrong, and gives examples of it from Confucianism, through to Hinduism and Buddhism.

    There is not one single civilisation, or culture, in the world, that does not include some sort of recognition of ”do as you would be done by”, moral conduct towards other human beings, and some sort of conception of a benign God, except islam.

    islam is conspicuous for its total absence.

    And for markuk to assert that concepts of right from wrong, do as you would be done by, and other moral codes, arise out of sheer thin air, is utterly ridiculous.

  16. says

    ”C.S. Lewis, in his book, the ”Abolition of Man”, calls it the Tao, and further refines it to include moral concepts of good and evil, right and wrong, and gives examples of it from Confucianism, through to Hinduism and Buddhism.”

    The only ‘religion’ and ‘culture’ he gives **no** examples from, is **islam**.

  17. says

    You are assuming I believe our morals have just appeared out of thin air. The is exactly what I do not think. I believe our morals change all the time. A process of evolution. This is why today our morals our dramatically different to what they were just 100 years ago. Think about this, how many black people were allowed into white Christian church not too long ago in the USA .

  18. says

    Please don’t try to say Christians abolished they slave trade when they are the ones responsible for it in America. Slavery can cleary justified in the new testemant.

  19. says

    And that is the difference between the Christians and (irrespective of ethnicity) the Muslims.
    ==============================================================

    Christians=God worshipers

    Muslims=Satan worshipers

    Yes, BIG DIFFERENCE!!

  20. says

    Dumbledore’s Army wrote:

    …Yet not *once* has any Chinese Christian, whether Catholic or Protestant, gone and sought ‘revenge’ as this Muslim did, by blowing things up with cars full of explosives.
    ………………………..

    Very, very true, Dumbledore’s Army”compare and contrast.

  21. says

    I think this comment is totally ridiculous.
    Christians = God worshippers
    Muslims = Satan worshipper.
    I agree Islam is a million times worse than Christianity. But as far as i am concerned they are both no good for a healthy society.
    I think all churches and mosques should be knocked down for one simple reason. Child abuse! I don’t mean abusing children sexually i mean mentally.
    Teaching a child that he must believe in some bearded man in the sky because his parents believe this utter rubbish its child abuse.
    Any form of religion has absolutely NO scientific evidence whatsoever.
    Its father Christmas for grown ups.so as far as i see it someone telling a child that god made them and they should pray to him, her or whatever it is then this is depriving a child of education. All religion is bullshit. Just Islam fills people with even more of it

  22. says

    markuk wrote:

    All religion is bullshit. Just Islam fills people with even more of it…
    ……………………………

    What witless moral equivalence. One does not have to be a religious person to realize that your screed is pure idiocy.

    Anyone can leave Judaism, or Christianity, or Hinduism, or Buddhism, or most other religions for another faith or none”try that as a Muslim apostate.

    And when is the last time atheists were threatened by non-Muslim religious people?

    Try being an open atheist in Dar-al-Islam, and see how long you last.

    Pretending that you are at much the same risk from reform Jews, Unitarians, Zen Buddhists, and Seventh-Day Adventists as from ravening Mohammedans is a grotesque calumny”*and* suicidal madness.

    Islam doesn’t present “more” religion”instead, it is a very dark creed.

  23. says

    I think this comment is totally ridiculous.
    ===============================================================

    In the free world and under God’s law you have the right to be an atheist. As an American, I respect your right to be an atheist.

    Joshua 24:15

    King James Version (KJV)

    15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

    You WILL have to give an account of each and every word you spoke here today my friend, on judgment day. And that will be a very sad, sad day for you. Unless, you accept Jesus as your redeemer today.

  24. says

    Kepha wrote:

    Agreed, but I still hope the smoke stained Old Mao’s marmot-like face.
    …………………

    Kepha, I am *no* fan of Mao, or of Chinese Communism in general”as I have made clear many times here.

    But I believe it is important to keep in mind that Mohammedans like Usmen Hasan are not attacking China because it is an oppressive atheist dictatorship”they are attacking China because it is not Islamic.

    It’s a similar situation in Russia”one need not be a fan of Putin or his authoritarianism to see the threat of Muslim terrorism there.

    Ultimately, Jihadists are just as happy attacking the United States, Britain, or a Vatican consulate as they are any Communist state.

    in the end, we are *all* just “filthy Infidels”.

    And what Muslims have in store for us where they gain ascendancy is every bit as horrifying as Maoism.

  25. says

    Let me start by saying you have chosen to completely ignore my point and instead just insult me.
    You don’t have to tell me the difference between Islam and Christianity because i already know.
    But for someone to claim Christianity = God worshippers and Islam = Satan worshippers is ridiculous. Please define GOD.
    My point was which I notice you didn’t mention when you replied was religion is child abuse.
    Teaching any child to believe in something and base their whole life on it without a shred of scientific evidence is not what people should be teaching children. Religion = Ignorance, God is a plug to fill a gap were science does not yet have the answers.
    You got defensive because you thought I was comparing Islam and Christianity but I wasn’t, but to say one = god and the other = the devil is nonsense because their is no god and there is no devil.

  26. says

    Bettina can you explain how I am close minded? I am open to believing anything at all including a personal creator as long as I have evidence. Christians, Muslims and any other sort of God believing people are totally the opposite. They chose to base their whole lives around some believe that a man in the sky outside the realms of physics put us all here and just accept it as FACT. This is about as closed minded can you get.
    Also these same people thank this God when someone is cured of some killer disease but he or it never gets the blame for any suffering. This surely isn’t how you bring your own kids up. Is it?
    So yes I do hate Islam. I hate it with a passion but when it comes to my daughters education I hate any religion because its all hocus pocus and is absolutely no good for a child’s developing mind.

  27. says

    “You WILL have to give an account of each and every word you spoke here today my friend, on judgement day. And that will be a very sad, sad day for you. Unless, you accept Jesus as your redeemer today.”

    Can you please explain in a bit more detail. How will i be able to give an account for each and every word i “typed” on this laptop. has god also got a computer with copy of windows up in the sky?
    You probably think I am being sarcastic but it is a genuine question. Also can you please tell me why is your god so insecure that IT will have to punish me just because I don’t believe in him.
    Lastly what is he going to punish exactly? because once im dead he can do whatever he wants with me because when your dead you simply cease to exist, Just the same way you never existed for billions of years until your MUM and DAD made you. Yes your MUM and DAD, surely they are the ones that deserve the credit for you being on this planet right now. Not some fella in the sky sitting on his arse watching us all killing one another and doing sod all about it.

  28. says

    So, Mark, in your view, ‘religion is child abuse’.

    I’m hearing this a lot, now, from the most militant atheists.

    Question: since you seem now to have become convinced that the least bit of exposure of a child to the teachings and/ or practice of *any* religion (not just of the malevolent Death Cult that is Islam, but *any* religion) = ‘child abuse’ (so, presumably, *no different from* physical or sexual abuse): what is your next step, and that of those who think like you?

    How do you propose to ‘save’ children from this *dreadful* abuse that is perpetrated by every parent who sings “jesus loves me’ as a lullaby to her infant, every parent who has a Bible or an icon inside their house, every Jewish family that celebrates a seder or lights the Sabbath candles?

    Those who beat or rape children are arrested, charged, tried, and placed in prison, and their children are removed from them and placed in foster care or in institutions.

    Do you propose to arrest and imprison the Jewish mother who bakes a challah and sings a Sabbath blessing over the candles, in front of her children, or teaches them to recite the Krias Shema or the Sh’ma Yisroel, on the grounds that this is *just the same* as sexually abusing those children or beating them?

    How do you propose to *prevent* and/ or *detect* these awful abuses?

    By legislating that *no* religious object should be kept in any private home…and getting schoolteachers to encourage their little pupils to ‘dob in’ their parents and grandparents?

    “Does daddy take you to church? He shouldn’t be doing that…here’s the number you have to ring so that the State police can come and take daddy and mummy away to the reeducation camp…and arrest the priest and the sunday school teacher and put them in jail for twenty years…”.

    “Does your family say grace before meals? They’re not allowed to do that. Next time they do it, use your big voice and say NO THIS IS WRONG and then leave the room..”.

    “Does Mummy keep a bible next to her bed? This is what a bible looks like. It’s full of nasty lies. When Mummy isn’t looking, take it and put it in the rubbish bin, because Mummy shouldn’t have that in a house where there are children like you..”.

    “Does Daddy wear a cross around his neck? He shouldn’t wear it outside the house and he shouldn’t wear it if you can see him doing it. It’s obscene!’

    “Mummy and Daddy aren’t allowed to pray in front of you. Tell them to do it where you can’t see it.”

  29. says

    markuk wrote:

    Let me start by saying you have chosen to completely ignore my point and instead just insult me….
    ………………………

    Not at all. I based my reply squarely on your comments.

    More:

    You got defensive because you thought I was comparing Islam and Christianity but I wasn’t
    ………………………

    That’s exactly what you were doing, when you referred to them both as forms of “child abuse”.

    There is nothing wrong with atheism”no one has to believe in any sort of “higher power” in a free society.

    But that is *not* what markuk is advocating. He wrote:

    “I think all churches and mosques should be knocked down…”

    Note that he is not arguing with people of faith”instead, he wants to use force against them.

    He does not believe in freedom of religion”he believes that people should be *forcibly prevented* from being able to peacefully practice their faith.

    This would mean destroying one of the West’s most cherished values”that of defending freedom of worship, so long as that worship is peaceful.

    In the United States, it would ravage the First Amendment”the very basis of our rights and freedoms.

    This is Fascism, as surely as living under Shar’ah is. I am not “defensive” about this”I am forthrightly criticizing it and its appalling implications.

  30. says

    There are a million things we teach are kids.
    say for instance don’t run out into the road because you can get run over by a car. Or don’t play with matches because is very dangerous.Or 1+1 is 2. I could go on and on.
    But to tell a child what the should believe with no proof and on top of that put this believe before any other human on earth is surely mental abuse of a developing child s mind.

  31. says

    Communist China’see story above’severely restricts Christian worship. markuk’s positing that this makes makes their society some sort of model for the free world is clearly grotesque.

    Not only does China lack freedom, but it is clearly not safe from the ravages of Islamic terrorism, either.

  32. says

    ”All of these things I agree are not on the same level as someone sexually abusing a child but they are still harmful as far as they are taking away choice. The seed is being planted from a very early age and this is when the most damage is caused. Some children go on to just believe it for the rest of their lives because they have been told this is how it is, this is the truth. They never even question it. It baffles me that a human being can brainwash their own child with something that has no evidence whatsoever.
    Do you not think what I am saying is reasonable”

    No, not really. I should have thought that the **content**, and **tenets** of any given religion are what is important.

    You appear to be against teaching a child any ethics, whatsoever, since that would also, presumably, ‘brainwash’ them.

    Do you object to children being taught the Golden Rule ? Or that it is bad to lie, steal, and murder ? Perhaps you object to teaching children to value freedom of conscience, equqlity of rights for all, freedom of speech ? Because their minds are a tabula rasa that must never be interfered with, until they are adults, because that would be brainwashing ?

    If you have a child, or children, do you ever read them stories, such as fairy tales ? All of these stories have a moral, which arise from some aspect of Christian, or Jewish, or Hindu, or Buddhist morality.

    Of course, I’m sure you would never allow them to be exposed to, for example, the Narnia stories, or the Lord of the Rings, because these are stories overtly based on Christian morality and ethics. What a rich and exciting world you are condemning them to miss !

    All of the above, including the secular ethics of freedom of speech, equality of rights etc, are all ethics that have arisen from either Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, or Buddhism.

    islam has no Golden Rule, and has produced no system of ethics, unless you count forcing the entire population of the world to submit to ‘allah’, and the vicious and evil tenets of sharia, to be ‘ethics’.

    Whether one is Christian or not, you cannot avoid the fact that our concepts of morality, good and evil, in the West, are based on Christianity and Judaism.

    Would you really condemn your children to a childhood stripped bare of any of the above good things, in the name of not *brainwashing* them ?

  33. says

    markuk wrote:

    This kind of indoctrination not only teaches falsehoods, but it severely impairs a child’s ability to think for himself or herself…
    ……………………..

    And that’s why there’s no tradition of reason or imaginative thinking in the Judeo-Christian West”oh, wait…

  34. says

    I see you have moved the goal posts. I wonder why ?

    My comment dealt with your blanket accusation of Christianity as an ‘indoctrination’ religion par excellence, but you have chosen to ignore my points refuting that, and instead harp on about your conviction that God doesn’t exist.

    There’s nothing wrong with being an atheist; where you fall down sadly is in your inability, or rather refusal, to recognise the essential difference in the nature of the Christian God, and the islamic ‘allah’.

    And that essential difference is shown most clearly in the behaviour of Christians, as opposed to the behaviour of *many* mohammedans.

    Further, your hatred of religion also makes you less than informed

    about the history of Christianity. The Old Testament is very much a

    history of the Jewish people, and is frequently descriptive, rather

    than prescriptive. The New Testament deals withe the coming of
    Christ, as the Messiah, (whom the Jews don’t accept), and is a whole
    different ball game.

    You also fail to recognise the debt that Western civilisation owes to Christianity, in terms of art, music, architecture, literature, philosophy.

    You are also quite wrong about my own personal beliefs, since I am not in fact Christian, but agnostic. However, that doesn’t mean I must dismiss everything beautiful and true that a belief in God has allowed many good, decent people to create.

    And the reason I am agnostic, rather than an atheist, is because I think it stupid to state quite catagorically there is no God; you have no evidence for stating this, any more than Christians have for their belief.

    about Christianity. The Old Testament is very much a history of the
    Jewish people, and is far more descriptive, rather than prescriptive.

  35. says

    markuk wrote:

    Of course I hate Islam this is the whole reason I read this blog every day
    ………………………….

    Is that so? And yet, I have never seen you post before now, when you have little to say about the threat of Islam at all.

  36. says

    Christians do not send their children to a mosque,temple or any other place of worship for that matter. They tell them from a early age this is what you should believe . They aren’t told in church this might be the truth but then again we have absolutely no evidence so we are almost certainly wrong. They are told this is how it is and it’s 100% fact. The only ones moving the goal posts are in fact Christians themselves although some actually still believe the earth is only 6000 years old when in fact science has proven this wrong beyond a shadow of doubt. Evolution has totally proven without a shadow of doubt that dawinian natural selection is the reason humans exist and now most Christians have moved their goal posts and said ok we accept that.
    Speaking of morals our morals certainly do not come from religious beliefs. Thing like the abolition of slavery,woman’s right, gay rights ha e only came about in this past century. I would like to think I am good because I believe I’m being and not because I think I won’t go to heaven if I am not.
    This is something I want you to look at and tell me do you believe this is a moral god.

    1. God drowns the whole earth.
    In Genesis 7:21-23, God drowns the entire population of the earth: men, women, children, fetuses, and perhaps unicorns. Only a single family survives. In Matthew 24:37-42, gentle Jesus approves of this genocide and plans to repeat it when he returns.

    2. God kills half a million people.
    In 2 Chronicles 13:15-18, God helps the men of Judah kill 500,000 of their fellow Israelites.

    3. God slaughters all Egyptian firstborn.
    In Exodus 12:29, God the baby-killer slaughters all Egyptian firstborn children and cattle because their king was stubborn.

    4. God kills 14,000 people for complaining that God keeps killing them.
    In Numbers 16:41-49, the Israelites complain that God is killing too many of them. So, God sends a plague that kills 14,000 more of them.

    5. Genocide after genocide after genocide.
    In Joshua 6:20-21, God helps the Israelites destroy Jericho, killing “men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys.” In Deuteronomy 2:32-35, God has the Israelites kill everyone in Heshbon, including children. In Deuteronomy 3:3-7, God has the Israelites do the same to the people of Bashan. In Numbers 31:7-18, the Israelites kill all the Midianites except for the virgins, whom they take as spoils of war. In 1 Samuel 15:1-9, God tells the Israelites to kill all the Amalekites – men, women, children, infants, and their cattle – for something the Amalekites’ ancestors had done 400 years earlier.

    6. God kills 50,000 people for curiosity.
    In 1 Samuel 6:19, God kills 50,000 men for peeking into the ark of the covenant. (Newer cosmetic translations count only 70 deaths, but their text notes admit that the best and earliest manuscripts put the number at 50,070.)

    7. 3,000 Israelites killed for inventing a god.
    In Exodus 32, Moses has climbed Mount Sinai to get the Ten Commandments. The Israelites are bored, so they invent a golden calf god. Moses comes back and God commands him: “Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.” About 3,000 people died.

    8. The Amorites destroyed by sword and by God’s rocks.
    In Joshua 10:10-11, God helps the Israelites slaughter the Amorites by sword, then finishes them off with rocks from the sky.

    9. God burns two cities to death.
    In Genesis 19:24, God kills everyone in Sodom and Gomorrah with fire from the sky. Then God kills Lot’s wife for looking back at her burning home.

    10. God has 42 children mauled by bears.
    In 2 Kings 2:23-24, some kids tease the prophet Elisha, and God sends bears to dismember them. (Newer cosmetic translations say the bears “maul” the children, but the original Hebrew, baqa, means “to tear apart.”)

    11. A tribe slaughtered and their virgins raped for not showing up at roll call.
    In Judges 21:1-23, a tribe of Israelites misses roll call, so the other Israelites kill them all except for the virgins, which they take for themselves. Still not happy, they hide in vineyards and pounce on dancing women from Shiloh to take them for themselves.

    12. 3,000 crushed to death.
    In Judges 16:27-30, God gives Samson strength to bring down a building to crush 3,000 members of a rival tribe.

    13. A concubine raped and dismembered.
    In Judges 19:22-29, a mob demands to rape a godly master’s guest. The master offers his daughter and a concubine to them instead. They take the concubine and gang-rape her all night. The master finds her on his doorstep in the morning, cuts her into 12 pieces, and ships the pieces around the country.

    14. Child sacrifice.
    In Judges 11:30-39, Jephthah burns his daughter alive as a sacrificial offering for God’s favor in killing the Ammonites.

    15. God helps Samson kill 30 men because he lost a bet.
    In Judges 14:11-19, Samson loses a bet for 30 sets of clothes. The spirit of God comes upon him and he kills 30 men to steal their clothes and pay off the debt.

    16. God demands you kill your wife and children for worshiping other gods.
    In Deuteronomy 13:6-10, God commands that you must kill your wife, children, brother, and friend if they worship other gods.

    17. God incinerates 51 men to make a point.
    In 2 Kings 1:9-10, Elijah gets God to burn 51 men with fire from heaven to prove he is God.

    18. God kills a man for not impregnating his brother’s widow.
    In Genesis 38:9-10, God kills a man for refusing to impregnate his brother’s widow.

    19. God threatens forced cannibalism.
    In Leviticus 26:27-29 and Jeremiah 19:9, God threatens to punish the Israelites by making them eat their own children.

    20. The coming slaughter.
    According to Revelation 9:7-19, God’s got more evil coming. God will make horse-like locusts with human heads and scorpion tails, who torture people for 5 months. Then some angels will kill a third of the earth’s population. If he came today, that would be 2 billion people.

    Now, Christians have spent thousands of years coming up with excuses for a loving god that would allow or create such evil. In fact, they’ve come up with 12 basic responses, which are the subject of The Tale of the Twelve Officers.

  37. says

    Still waiting for markuk to show up anywhere else on Jihad Watch, with its daily inventory of Islamic horrors”but he’d rather stay on this this thread and rant about Christianity.

    Chances are he will be back here, further slamming Christians for daring to teach their children the Golden Rule or that Jesus loves them”but this is completely irrelevant.

    markuk has shown that he is no Anti-Jihadist, and no ally of ours in the fight against Jihad.

  38. says

    No in fact I don’t comment on the Islamic horrors because I believe what Robert Spencer has to say about Islam to be true. I don’t believe there is a person alive who can even debate about it like he can.
    It wasn’t a rant it just amazes me that anyone can state our god is god and your god is the devil.

  39. says

    I’m not going to bother engaging with markuk any more.

    There’s no point in trying to play chess with a pigeon. markuk knocks over all the pieces, craps all over the board, and then flaps off, crying victory.

    He’s made no attempt whatsoever to get to grips with the points I made about the OT versus the NT; just cuts and pastes verses from the Old Testament, in order to try and prove his point that the Christian God is evil.

    You’ll notice he doesn’t cut and paste anything from the Koran, showing the violence and evil of ‘allah’ !

    Neither has he made any comments on the points you and I made, about the debt Western civilisation owes to Christianity, or indeed, **any** of the points we made ! Just rails on and on about how evil the Christian God is, which is strange, because if he’s an atheist, he’s talking about an imaginary construct, created by **human beings**, anyway.

    I’m afraid markuk is a stranger to logical debate, and as such, a waste of time.

    Sayonara, pigeon.

  40. says

    Hi Jan,

    By his own admission”and his own clear example here on this thread”markuk has nothing to bring to the Counter Jihad.

    Time to move on.

    As always, I enjoy reading your excellent comments, Jan. Hope you are well.