Finally, a President stands up to jihadist intimidation and thuggery. A historic speech.
“Full Video and Transcript: Trump’s Speech Recognizing Jerusalem as the Capital of Israel,” New York Times, December 6, 2017:
Thank you. When I came into office, I promised to look at the world’s challenges with open eyes and very fresh thinking.
We cannot solve our problems by making the same failed assumptions and repeating the same failed strategies of the past. All challenges demand new approaches.
My announcement today marks the beginning of a new approach to conflict between Israel and the Palestinians.
In 1995, Congress adopted the Jerusalem Embassy Act urging the federal government to relocate the American Embassy to Jerusalem and to recognize that that city, and so importantly, is Israel’s capital. This act passed congress by an overwhelming bipartisan majority. And was reaffirmed by unanimous vote of the Senate only six months ago.
Yet, for over 20 years, every previous American president has exercised the law’s waiver, refusing to move the U.S. Embassy to Jerusalem or to recognize Jerusalem as Israel’s capital city. Presidents issued these waivers under the belief that delaying the recognition of Jerusalem would advance the cause of peace. Some say they lacked courage but they made their best judgments based on facts as they understood them at the time. Nevertheless, the record is in.
After more than two decades of waivers, we are no closer to a lasting peace agreement between Israel and the Palestinians.
It would be folly to assume that repeating the exact same formula would now produce a different or better result.
Therefore, I have determined that it is time to officially recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.
While previous presidents have made this a major campaign promise, they failed to deliver.
Today, I am delivering. I’ve judged this course of action to be in the best interests of the United States of America and the pursuit of peace between Israel and the Palestinians. This is a long overdue step to advance the peace process. And to work towards a lasting agreement.
Israel is a sovereign nation with the right, like every other sovereign nation, to determine its own capital. Acknowledging this is a fact is a necessary condition for achieving peace. It was 70 years ago that the United States under President Truman recognized the state of Israel.
Ever since then, Israel has made its capital in the city of Jerusalem, the capital the Jewish people established in ancient times.
Today, Jerusalem is the seat of the modern Israeli government. It is the home of the Israeli Parliament, the Knesset, as well as the Israeli Supreme Court. It is the location of the official residence of the prime minister and the president. It is the headquarters of many government ministries.
For decades, visiting American presidents, secretaries of State and military leaders have met their Israeli counterparts in Jerusalem, as I did on my trip to Israel earlier this year.
Jerusalem is not just the heart of three great religions, but it is now also the heart of one of the most successful democracies in the world. Over the past seven decades, the Israeli people have by the a country where Jews, Muslims and Christians and people of all faiths are free to live and worship according to their conscience and according to their beliefs.
Jerusalem is today and must remain a place where Jews pray at the Western Wall, where Christians walk the stations of the cross, and where Muslims worship at Al Aqsa Mosque. However, through all of these years, presidents representing the United States have declined to officially recognize Jerusalem as Israel’s capital. In fact, we have declined to acknowledge any Israeli capital at all.
But today we finally acknowledge the obvious. That Jerusalem is Israel’s capital. This is nothing more or less than a recognition of reality. It is also the right thing to do. It’s something that has to be done.
That is why consistent with the Jerusalem embassy act, I am also directing the State Department to begin preparation to move the American embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem. This will immediately begin the process of hiring architects, engineers and planners so that a new embassy, when completed, will be a magnificent tribute to peace.
In making these announcements, I also want to make one point very clear. This decision is not intended in any way to reflect a departure from our strong commitment to facilitate a lasting peace agreement.
We want an agreement that is a great deal for the Israelis and a great deal for the Palestinians. We are not taking a position of any final status issues including the specific boundaries of the Israeli sovereignty in Jerusalem or the resolution of contested borders. Those questions are up to the parties involved.
The United States remains deeply committed to helping facilitate a peace agreement that is acceptable to both sides. I intend to do everything in my power to help forge such an agreement.
Without question, Jerusalem is one of the most sensitive issues in those talks. The United States would support a two-state solution if agreed to by both sides. In the meantime, I call on all parties to maintain the status quo at Jerusalem’s holy sites including the Temple Mount, also known as Haram al-Sharif. Above all, our greatest hope is for peace. The universal yearning in every human soul.
With today’s action, I reaffirm my administration’s longstanding commitment to a future of peace and security for the region. There will, of course, be disagreement and dissent regarding this announcement. But we are confident that ultimately, as we work through these disagreements, we will arrive at a peace and a place far greater in understanding and cooperation. This sacred city should call forth the best in humanity.
Lifting our sights to what is possible, not pulling us back and down to the old fights that have become so totally predictable.
Peace is never beyond the grasp of those willing to reach it.
So today we call for calm, for moderation, and for the voices of tolerance to prevail over the purveyors of hate. Our children should inherit our love, not our conflicts. I repeat the message I delivered at the historic and extraordinary summit in Saudi Arabia earlier this year: The Middle East is a region rich with culture, spirit, and history. Its people are brilliant, proud and diverse. Vibrant and strong.
But the incredible future awaiting this region is held at bay by bloodshed, ignorance and terror.
Vice President Pence will travel to the region in the coming days to reaffirm our commitment to work with partners throughout the Middle East to defeat radicalism that threatens the hopes and dreams of future generations.
It is time for the many who desire peace to expel the extremists from their midsts. It is time for all civilized nations and people to respond to disagreement with reasoned debate, not violence. And it is time for young and moderate voices all across the Middle East to claim for themselves a bright and beautiful future.
So today, let us rededicate ourselves to a path of mutual understanding and respect. Let us rethink old assumptions and open our hearts and minds to possible and possibilities.
And finally, I ask the leaders of the region political and religious, Israeli and Palestinian, Jewish and Christian and Muslim to join us in the noble quest for lasting peace.
Thank you. God bless you. God bless Israel. God bless the Palestinians and God bless the United States.
Thank you very much. Thank you.
makmorn says
Bravo Mr. President!
mortimer says
Te Deum laudamus
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxUszmrSn6A
DogOnPorch says
Le President Soleil!
Naildriver says
This is worth it just to see the pathetic Muslim leaders whine and stamp their feet. Islam’s Muslims are best dealt with by way of strength, and causing their humiliation that exhibits their impotence.
Finally the courage to to say no to decades of threat and hysteria that so infuriates Muslims.
I do hope many more such kick in their ummahed upturned butts will follow– this is almost as good as a Jewish princess kicking her pointy toed stiletto up their collective asses with a karate kick.
It is, by the way, crucial that such moves are made, since it positively deflates that pride and joy they have for their vile beliefs of intimidation, and this scares them as much as a carpet bombing.
I think it’d be great to take Mecca and force Muslims to accept tourists putting bubble gum upon their slobbered upon black rock.
Islam does not deserve respect, and the less it gets the sooner it will shrivel up like … well you know.
Ernie says
Thanks Naildriver , great comment again !
gungadin says
AGREED !!
Jayell says
I’ll second that! I have just been listening to an early morning phone-in discussion of this topic on London’s LBC radio station, where the presenter very democratically invited callers from all sides of the Israel-Palestine debate to give their views. Three of the participants were of Jewish/Israeli background and sounded very sane and balanced, including one who did not support Mr Trump and one who was actually calling from Jerusalem. The only Palestinian (muslim) to call in did not seem to want to listen to any other point of view but seemed consumed by his own sense of grievance and entitlement and hardly seemed to entertain any thought of democratic sharing of the territory. Indeed, he rather arrogantly assumed some right to correct ‘inaccuracies’ in other participants’ statements whilst presenting glaringly incomplete, unsubstantiated or palpably dubious facts and claims; e.g., he claimed some kind of ‘historical’ territorial rights dating from 1967 whilst curiously ignoring the fact that Jerusalem had been effectively created by the Jews 3000+ years ago!!! It would seem that you can’t expect to have a properly intelligent, informed, mature and reasonable discussion with a muslim, which is why Mr Trump as absolutely right to tell this lot where they get off, if he has to. A parallel was drawn with our own Northern Ireland problem, but the difference here is that it is accepted that there are a lot of blithering idiots in that part of the world and they bl**dy well learn to behave themselves, or else. I suppose that’s too much to expect where muslims are involved.
Ren says
@Naildriver
Very well said. No one respects a pedophile, a thief, a murderer and a terrorist, Muhammad that is, except the retarded muslims.
Fred says
Good comment. Muslims can walk into any other religious place on this planet, And pray as they choose. They must let all others do the same in Mecca. They are not the chosen anything. Just another bunch of religious fools, that happen to be very violent and think that they must conquer and control the earth. This will never happen.
Andy says
Thank you, President Trump.
Jerusalem not only the capital of Israel but in the future the world!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9djqVSxeZ0&index=10&list=RDawx654y3z-0
Voytek Gagalka says
YES!!! (At last.)
Stephen Rohaty says
Trump’s recognition is obviously the will of allah, because allah permitted it!
kabooooooooooooooooooooom says
Alli-boy must have banged his head against the wall this morning – and finally seen the light – his migrane finally solved. Mad m0ehamhead visited me in my dreams last night and told he did a video with ISIS and has summonsed his mighty winged steed Buraq for rush delivery of said to Tehran, islamabad, Damascus, mekka, Riyadh, Londonistan, Stockholm-syndrome and Beirut.
The black stone in the Kebab-stand in mekker will be straining for liberation now the light is spreading. Expect the Hajjers to the Kebab-stand to change direction and Moonwalk in excitement and celebration backwards around the Kebab-stand, to the sound of Muezzin Barry Soetoro (aka BH Obama) proclaiming Aloha Snackbar!!!!!! Alli-boy must have given Barry-boy advance notice of his enlightenment to have him in place for this announcement.
Early news from my sources in Londonistan has Imam Khan proclaiming Londonistan is London again, appearing resplendent in a Green Bay Packer Kap with the letters MLLA (Make Londonistan London Again) replacing the “G”.
In honour of this Galaxy changing news the NFL Players Association has issued a statement saying that there will be no more knee-bendings nor head scrapings on the astro-turf (too many concussions have accumulated over the last several months and insurance rates are sky-rocketing, prompting NORK’s Rocket-Man to launch a missile at Giants Stadium which fizzled-out short of a Tom Brady Touchdown Bomb).
In other stunning news Komrade Kapernickers renounced his Sports Illustrated’s Mad m0ehamhead Ali Legacy Award of yesterday saying he has fully recovered from his long-term concussion which caused him to convert to Pisslam and is now feeling much better and confident he can get a job again; and finally the SPLC in conjunction with BLM and Antifa and CAIR issued a collective YEEEEEEEEEEEEEHAAAAAAAAAAwd at this amazing announcement – ISIS has gone mute while deciphering the implications and plotting their inevitable response.
And The Band played Waltzing Matilda – https://goo.gl/D98Tu6
gravenimage says
kabooooooooooooooooooooom can sneer all he wants, but this refusal to back down to Muslim bullying is still a good thing.
Will it in itself fix everything? Of course not. But it is still a good move.
Wellington says
Just curious, gravenimage, respecting what you think this ass, kaboom (simply will not give this turkey any more “os” than this) is ultimately up to.
That he has an exaggerated sense of his own self-importance is patently obvious, i.e., he is indeed a narcissist (and I believe a narcissist who actually thinks he has a real sense of humor). I suspect he is yet another Muslim in disguise posing as something other than a Muslim. But he could be a Leftist in disguise attempting disruption of threads here at JW for highly ignorant reasons (but then so would a Muslim in disguise since Muslims and Leftists are equally rooted in massive error——–and both are enemies of liberty. Whichever, this person is deficient. Immensely so.
Your thoughts?
gravenimage says
Wellington, unlike the Muslim ideologues here, I think that kabooooom is just a classic troll. He shows up here, sneers at a few Anti-Jihadists or at the very idea of standing against Jihad, then snickers if he gets a response.
I could be wrong, but I doubt that he cares about or even much understands the threat from Islam.
I would not be at all surprised if he is doing the same sort of thing on other web sites, just to get a rise out of people.
kabooooooooooooooooooooom says
UPDATE – THIS JUST IN FROM THE WHITE HOUSE
The Kanadastan Embassy in Washington called the White House greatly concerned they had not been informed about the Embassy announcement in advance.
White House Press secretary Sarah Sanders responded that POTUS had asked White House Chef Cristeta Comerford to call Kanadastan’s Feminist Whine-Minister and part-time Imam Justin Trudeau, with the news during a break from planning the Lunch Menu.
Chef Comerford did so and got Justin’s voice-mail. The voice message indicated that it would be performing it’s Imam responsibilities at the local Mosk until late afternoon and promised to respond after that.
Can Wilfred Laurier University PC experts advise if I have the wrong pronoun for Justine, please? https://goo.gl/e4qxqJ
gravenimage says
More witless blather.
JawsV says
Well, I wish he hadn’t said “three great religions” because Islam doesn’t belong in that category. There are two great religions, Judaism and Christianity. Islam is a fake, a fraud, a sham. Nothing creepier than Islam.
LeftisruiningCanada says
That was the only unfortunate statement, agreed.
Jerusalem is not at the heart of Islam. To them, it’s just another way to force themselves into other people’s business.
Much like the ME reaction to this announcement actually.
JawsV says
Muslims feel entitled to all the Jews and Christians stuff. Muhammed said so.
gravenimage says
LeftisruiningCanada, it is interesting that under the Ottoman Empire that the Levant was underpopulated and largely ignored. Muslims had no real interest until the Jews reclaimed their land and created the vibrant modern state of Israel there.
LeftisruiningCanada says
Sure is. It’s also interesting that those rich muslims who owned large parts of what is now Israel, but preferred not to live there, had no qualms about selling to Jews.
tim gallagher says
I agree with the comments here. It’s long annoyed me to hear Islam, this evil ideology, being categorised as one of the “great” religions. I think of the term great, in relation to religions, as meaning morally great. Islam doesn’t get within a million kilometres of being great in a moral sense. It’s totally barbaric. But, of course, it must just mean Islam has a large number of members. It alarms me that so many people can be adherents of such an evil, barbaric religion. The human race should have left such barbarism behind long ago. No doubt, as Barry says, it’s the apostasy rules and fear of leaving, plus the irresponsible overbreeding by Muslims (having far more children than they can properly care for) that explain the huge numbers of Muslims in the world. Bravo Trump on this move. He’s got some courage. Good comment, JawsV, Muslims feel entitled to every bloody thing. All totally undeserved.
JawsV says
If you read Nonie Darwish’s book “Wholly Different” (2017) she discusses how the Muslims achieved wealth through war, conquest, and the spoils of war, not through any work of their own. Islam doesn’t have the Christian work ethic. Muhammed told the Muslims everything belonged to them so why work? They just go and take. This is so important in Islam that an entire chapter of the Koran is dedicated to the Infidels’ booty, called “The Spoils of War” (chapter 8).
LeftisruiningCanada says
Her books are very much worth reading. She manages to keep a balanced tone, while freely explaining the deficiencies and abuses in islamic culture. Her explanations of islamic social behavior is very interesting too.
tim gallagher says
Thanks for the information about Nonie Darwish’s book, JawsV. I’ve watched a couple of Nonie Darwish’s talks and interviews on youtube over the years. She impresses me just as she impresses you, LeftisruiningCanada.. Imagine a religion or ethical system having a whole chapter on “The Spoils of War”. Disgusting and so evil. Islam, to my mind, is on the same moral level as Nazism, another vicious, endlessly violent philosophy. Christianity, regardless of whether there is a God and a life after death or not, ( I mostly believe there is), has high ideals to aim for and Jesus is a gentle type of person, whereas Islam is totally barbaric and I put it on the same moral level as Nazism. It’s the lowest level I can think of putting anything. Unmitigated evil and a constant danger to all non-Muslims.
Custos Custodum says
More practically, Christianity does not claim for itself the Western Wall or the Dome of the Rock (built by Muslims on the site of the Jewish temple).
Ren says
It is time to recognize history of Jews and Jerusalem as one.
mortimer says
A country may legally decide where its capital city will be.
No country can tell the US not to put its capital in Washington, to tell Italy not to chose Rome, or Russia not to chose Moscow.
Recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel is putting the diplomatic office near the Israeli politicians and civil servants who need to be contacted.
Lu says
Amen to that 🙂 … exactly my point. The threats from Iraq, Turkey etc. – just interfering with internal affairs of the US. Recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel is INTERNAL decision of the US government and the message to whomever it does not like should be: suck it up, losers …
jihad3tracker says
TO ALL JIHADWATCH READERS IN THE U.S. —- In my humble opinion, this would be an excellent time to contact your federal and state legislators BY EMAIL, telling them of your support for our president’s decision to actually carry through on a NOT NEW commitment.
ESPECIALLY IF YOUR SENATORS AND REPRESENTATIVES ARE LEFTIST DEMOCRATS ! ! ! Point out the ironclad solid reasoning contained in Mr. Trump’s remarks: the “peace process” has gotten NOWHERE even when our embassy is in Tel Aviv.
Also bring up the “Palestinians” urging SEVERAL DAYS OF RAGE: in other words, destruction of property and, if they possibly can, the murder of Israelis along with whoever non-Muslims are unfortunate enough to be within striking distance.
You might close with the factual observations that Jew-hatred goes all the way back to Muhammad killing hundreds of them, and it continues right up to this very day. Muslims want THE UTTER DESTRUCTION OF ISRAEL, NOT PEACE.
le mouron rouge says
jihad3tracker says
Dec 6, 2017 at 2:38 pm
TO ALL JIHADWATCH READERS IN THE U.S. —- In my humble opinion, this would be an excellent time to contact your federal and state legislators BY EMAIL, telling them of your support for our president’s decision to actually carry through on a NOT NEW commitment.
***************************
Amen!
Also by phone, the Capitol switchboard is (202) 224-3121, you will then be directed to your Representative and/or Senator.
Tell your friends and neighbors to do the same.
“We” the people need to make our support known “loud and clear.”
“Silence in the face of evil is itself evil: God will not hold us guiltless. Not to speak is to speak. Not to act is to act.”
– Dietrich Bonhoeffer (1906-1945)
gungadin says
Here in the States, the constant refrain from the leftist liberal media is in SUPPORT of ALL things that are in direct opposition to what Trump is trying to accomplish !!
If those leftist, muslim lovers favor it, it doesn’t take a Rhodes Scholar to realize that it’s NOT GOOD for the average man or woman on the streets of America.
Go get ’em, President Trump and don’t bend to the “noise” from the muzzie lovers and leftists!! Soldier On!!
Jack Dawkins says
From Rabbi Joseph Teitelbaum:
“ The danger for the Jewish People is because those who are irreligious and who are heretics are the leaders of the Jewish People. Therefore because of them the nations of the world are misled into hating Jews, so one of the greatest things to do would be to selflessly proclaim to the nations that the Zionists are not the representatives of the Jewish People, and that religious Jews have no connection with them. We should have had self-sacrifice to do this, but because of our many sins, people are frightened of public opinion, and if anyone should say these things about the Zionists, there will be religious leaders who will fight against them with all sorts of excuses.”
dumbledoresarmy says
What on earth are you going on about?
Out of 14 million Jews, there are an estimated 100,000 devotees of the Satmar strand of hasidism. Let’s just say that those Jews who think Zionism is evil/ wrong are a pretty small minority. And given what people here know about Islam.. MUSLIMS *attacked* and persecuted and oppressed Jews for 1300 years *before* the sovereign Jewish state of Israel was re-established. Muslim hatred of Jews is not ’caused’ by modern Israel nor by anything Israel does or does not do. Israel is hated because it is Jewish – because it is NOT MUSLIM.
Antisemitism – rabid Jew-hatred – both Musim and non-Muslim was pretty damned virulent for *centuries* *before* modern Zionist movement arose, so, to be frank, I think Teitelbaum was wrong, in spades, to blame Zionism for ‘causing’ Jew-hatred!!
gravenimage says
All true.
gravenimage says
Thanks, Jihad3tracker and le mouron rouge.
mariam rove says
About time we have someone in the office with B…..s. m
LeftisruiningCanada says
Netanyahu Like it 🙂
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/238961
salim says
Dear JW readers
I am a frequent reader of JW and find myself in agreement with most (but not all) of its articles exposing Islam, which was the religion I practiced for about 40 years. However, I find myself in disagreement with most of your views on the issue of the Israeli/ Palestinian conflict. I managed to get rid of my strongly held beliefs about religion and related political issues but I still cannot accept your point of view regarding Israel and would appreciate it if somebody can explain to me where I got it wrong.
Please note that although I don’t completely reject the existence of God ( God might exist) but I reject Islam and all religions. I don’t believe in the prophets or scriptures. In short I am against Islamic ideology but find it difficult to be sympathetic with Israel no matter how hard I try.
My questions to you about Israel:
Its right to exist: The state was created based on religion and a claimed ‘divine promise’ that took place thousands of years ago. That reason was unacceptable to me when I was a Muslim and still unacceptable to me as an atheist. As to the historic claims, do you think they still valid after thousands of years? I don’t think so. Assuming the historic claim is valid, why displacing the Palestinians?
The Palestinians: We know the Palestinians exist, there are millions of them around. We also know their fathers and grand fathers and grand grand fathers also existed in Palestine, where they lived and died. We know with certainty this happened for at least several centuries – its relatively modern history. Most probably the Palestinians lived in Palestine for millennia but let us ignore that ancient history and focus on the last five hundred years. Doesn’t this make the existing Palestinians the legitimate owners of Palestine just as the Americans are considered the legitimate owners of America, even though they only lived in America for two or three centuries?
I am convinced the Palestinians have every right to live in Palestine, alongside the Jews who already live there. In fact, until 1948, the word “Palestinians” used to include all those who lived in Palestine (Muslims, Christians and Jews). May I remind you that there are Jews who always lived and still live in the West Bank city of Nablus. They are Palestinian Jews and are treated with respect by their fellow Palestinians – they are the “Sameri Jews” who, after the 1967 Israeli occupation refused to move to Israel. Despite all the “stone intifadas”, not a single stone was thrown at any Sameri Jew.
I know Islam hates the Jews but the Arabs managed to ignore that particular teaching and coexist with the Jews for centuries in Palestine, Egypt, Iraq and Morocco. Hatred of the Jews became a ‘national duty’ only after the creation of Israel.
I am not writing this irritate anyone, I am just eager to hear a convincing answer.
gary@erko says
I suggest you read “Whose Land” by James Parkes. If you can’t be bothered then that indicates you’re not really seriously asking that question.
JawsV says
Just ignore. Troll.
StacyGirl says
Agree. Even the nonreligious have had history to follow. And the grandfathers of the contemporary jihadists were Syrian, Lebanese and trans Jordanians.
Jack Dawkins says
From Rabbi Joel Teitelbaum:
“The danger for the Jewish People is because those who are irreligious and who are heretics are the leaders of the Jewish People. Therefore because of them the nations of the world are misled into hating Jews, so one of the greatest things to do would be to selflessly proclaim to the nations that the Zionists are not the representatives of the Jewish People, and that religious Jews have no connection with them. We should have had self-sacrifice to do this, but because of our many sins, people are frightened of public opinion, and if anyone should say these things about the Zionists, there will be religious leaders who will fight against them with all sorts of excuses.”
LeftisruiningCanada says
Every single Jew in Israel would die, if that sentiment became policy. imho
gravenimage says
*Exactly*, LeftisruiningCanada.
Jack Dawkins says
Jewhadis are just like Jihadis. My Jewish relatives say this all the time about the supremacist Zionists who don’t give a rat’s ass about Western civilization.
gravenimage says
Uh…right. Were are “Jewhadis” slaughtering Gentiles in the name of their faith? Where are they vowing to conquer all non-Jews? What a load of crap.
And the fact is that the only country in the Middle East that *does* care about Western Civilization is Israel.
LeftisruiningCanada says
You’re going to get someone much more informed than me replying to you, but here’s my limited thoughts on your questions:
Israels right to exist.
So far as i know, before the early Jewish settlers began moving to the area in the mid 19thC, there wasn’t much going on there. It was controlled by distance Ottoman rulers, who didn’t have much interest in the place but what little they could tax the farmers for, and plagued by Bedouin who were interested in what was left for them to steal.
Jews started buying up whatever land they could, funded by Jewish organizations or by personal funds or whatever. The people there sold their land willingly. Some were able to keep living on the sold land indefinitely, or for agreed upon periods of time, a few years or so.
So far as i’m concerned, Jews bought or took over the land fair and square, just like any other people have taken over areas of land simply by moving in and assuming control. Every nation has done this, or had it done to them. The Jews have more right than most to assume control of that land, and it doesn’t need a belief in the divine origin of the Scriptures to back it up. Historical evidence is enough.
The Palestinians.
A term not used until it became useful to certain ME leaders. Before that, the area was just a part of greater Arabia, inhabited by Arabs.
Israel made it quite clear that they were welcome to stay, but, listening to leaders in surrounding countries, many of them chose to leave the area when Israel declared nationhood. They were promised by those leaders that, once Israel was defeated, they would be able to go back and take the land and the houses and everything they wanted. This didn’t work out for them.
It is also not the case the Jews were living in complete peace and harmony up until Israel came to be as a nation. They were very often forced out of Arab countries, Iraq especially. If any quiet times have happened, it’s because Islam was less important to the Arabs than other concerns. Piety waxes and wains over time.
I know Islam hates the Jews but the Arabs managed to ignore that particular teaching and coexist with the Jews for centuries in Palestine, Egypt, Iraq and Morocco. Hatred of the Jews became a ‘national duty’ only after the creation of Israel.
“Doesn’t this make the existing Palestinians the legitimate owners of Palestine just as the Americans are considered the legitimate owners of America, even though they only lived in America for two or three centuries? ”
But this logic contradicts your previous statements.
Before this, the argument claims that the Arabs should be the legitimate owners of the land, because they were there before the Jews. (Ignoring historical evidence to the contrary).
But then, in the American example, it is the ‘late comers” that are said be the rightful owners.
I agree that the Jews are the legitimate owners of the land, even though they came after the Arabs.
As i said, i don’t know much about it all, and someone else will certainly be able to help you as you asked. I’m still learning about this too. 🙂
StacyGirl says
Well said. Give yourself more credit.
maghan says
But the Arabs invaded West Asia from the Arabian peninsula long after the Jews had made Israel and Jerusalem their home. The Arabs have no claim on the land that is now under the sway of Islam and Arabic–except the claim of a thief who steals my purse and now claims it’s his now.
The Arabs played the same thievery game when they invaded Spain and claimed Andalus for themselves. But the Spaniards under the anti-colonial leadership of El Cid expelled them.
In sum, those so-called Palestinians are descendants of settlers from other places. Classic case: Yasir Arafat derived from Egypt.
salim says
Thanks to those who replied.
gary@erko:
The book provides a religious point of view and considers history from that religious point of view. OK, to make it easier, I accept that ancient history is true, Why the Palestinians were displaced? and why Israel still refuses to accept them? Don’t they have the right to live in the land they inherited from their fathers, just like other humans?
In other words: What do you want to do with the Palestinians?
Leftisruinincanada:
I have to disagree with you on “Jews bought or took the land fair and square” The land that was sold to Jews is a very small proportion and was sold with good intention, not knowing that such trading would create a religious state for the Jews.
It was the Jews who were armed and well prepared to take the land by force. They were so well prepared they defeated the Arab armies. I may also mention some massacres like Deir Yassein and Mysaloon, which frightened the Palestinian Arabs.
“But this logic contradicts your previous statements”. Sorry, I don’t see contradictions there.
Jay:
“But really very few people did live there”
There were people living in Palestine all the time just like any fertile land. The evidence they were Arabs (Christians and Muslims besides Jews)
“With the advent of secular zionism this changed, and the region became a kind of magnet, a promise of future prosperity, and of a restoration of former glory”
But no prosperity for the Palestinians, just demise and displacement.
“I agree that Palestinians have every right to live in Palestine. Or in Jordan, if they prefer. But does that necessarily mean they need their own state?”
They need their land, somewhere they may call homeland, just like other people. Its a human right.
Did I understand that you are for the Jews and Palestinians living in the same country and sharing its administration? The Jews managed to live in peace with the Muslim/ Christian Palestinians for a long time and they still do in the city of Nablus. The creation of Israel ignited the hatred that was instigated by politicians and Islamists supported by Saudi Arabia (which is supported by Israel!).
Thanks to all but I still want to know what to do with the Palestinians?
LeftisruiningCanada says
Hi Salim,
Just to quote your reply:
“I have to disagree with you on “Jews bought or took the land fair and square”
The land that was sold to Jews is a very small proportion and was sold with good intention, not knowing that such trading would create a religious state for the Jews.
It was the Jews who were armed and well prepared to take the land by force. They were so well prepared they defeated the Arab armies.
I’ll just quote an extract from here:
https://www.wordfromjerusalem.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/the-case-for-israel-appendix2.pdf
———————————————————–
Land Ownership in 1948
The claim is often made that in 1948 a Jewish minority owning
only 5 per cent of the land of Palestine made itself master of the
Arab majority, which owned 95 per cent of the land.
In May 1948 the State of Israel was established in only part of the
area allotted by the original League of Nations Mandate. 8.6 per
cent of the land was owned by Jews and 3.3 per cent by Israeli
Arabs, while 16.9 per cent had been abandoned by Arab owners who
imprudently heeded the call from neighbouring countries to “get
out of the way” while the invading Arab armies made short shrift of
Israel. The rest of the land—over 70 per cent—had been vested in
the Mandatory Power, and accordingly reverted to the State
of Israel as its legal heir.
The greater part of this 70 per cent consisted of the Negev, some
3,144,250 acres all told, or close to 50 per cent of the 6,5
80,000 acres in all of Mandatory Palestine. Known as Crown or State
Lands, this was mostly uninhabited arid or semi-arid territory,
inherited originally by the Mandatory Government from Turkey.
In 1948 it passed to the Government of Israel.
These lands had not been owned by Arab farmers—neither under
the British Mandate nor under the preceding regime. Thus it is
obvious that the contention that 95 per cent of the land—whether
of Mandatory Palestine or of the State of Israel—had belonged to
Arabs has absolutely no foundation in fact.
——————————————————
The Jews were well armed – in 1948. Good thing too, or would you say they had no right of self defense?
” I may also mention some massacres like Deir Yassein and Mysaloon, which frightened the Palestinian Arabs.””
Im not going to try and defend everything Israel have ever done. People do what they think is necessary to survive. Israel has a far better record of self restraint and mercy than most would in their position. And Deit Yassein is hardly comparable to the 100,00s forced out of Iraq and other places is it?
“But this logic contradicts your previous statements”. Sorry, I don’t see contradictions there. ”
It seemed to me that you were saying that the current European owners of the USA have the right to be considered the legitimate owners, even though they ‘took it away’ from the previous inhabitants only a few hundred years ago.
I agree. But that would also mean that the Jews are the legitimate owners of Israel, even though they bought/took/were given the land fairly recently.
” let us ignore that ancient history and focus on the last five hundred years. Doesn’t this make the existing Palestinians the legitimate owners of Palestine just as the Americans are considered the legitimate owners of America, even though they only lived in America for two or three centuries? “
LeftisruiningCanada says
“Thanks to all but I still want to know what to do with the Palestinians?”
Well, it will have to go something like this, if terrible war (which they will lose horribly) is to be avoided:
*The relentless, obsessive, mental illness like zeal that is their hatred of Israel will have to change. Egypt, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Turkey etc etc etc are going to have to come to terms with Israel’s existence. This is so fundamental. Since islaam is at the root of this hatred, it will be a challenge to change this, even if some want to (which a small number do).
It will start, as you say, with the young. All that nasty Israel hating stuff needs to get out of the schooling.
This won’t be a quick change. I don’t know if it’s even possible.
*Islaam. It’s got to go. At least as it works right now, which honestly is the only islaam that there ever will be without something far more radical than even the Protestant reformation was. We all know how unlikely that is. The Christians at least had Christ’s example to reference, and they still did some unpleasant things along the way. When all you have is muhammad……beats me how you can reform that.
*Get religion out of the governmental realm. Without that, nothing will change. Religious based hatreds will always be able to direct policy. Turkey is an example of what might be possible, as are the several muslim majority ex-soviet republics, though none of them are exactly shining beacons of freedom, and even they are all starting to drift back towards islaam. Did i mention that the problem is islaam?
Islaam islaam islaam. Islaam is the problem. And the koran. Don’t forget the Hadith. Or the Sunnah. In fact, let’s be clear – mohammad is the problem.
With him as your guiding star, there can be no solution to the violence. How could there be?
Israel is willing to grant citizenship and all the fantastic opportunities that come with that to people who don’t want to destroy it, that’s amply demonstrated.
What do you think can come of this Salim?
zoniek says
Don’t kid yourself, Salim. There was a lot of violence against Jews before 48. It is unacceptable to me that Arabs occupy any territories outside the Arabian Peninsula. They marched out with their evil armies and destroyed everything in their path. They must abandon all conquered lands and pay reparations to all effected communities.
nabi ZK (pbum)
gravenimage says
Nabi! Great to see you posting again. Hope you are well.
salim says
Zoniek: As explained somewhere else, the pre 1948 violence was related to proposed creation of Israel.
Also I explained that the Arabs in Iraq and Greater Syria may not be Arabs at all. They speak Arabic and have sympathy with others who also speak Arabic and think they are Arabs. It is a bit complicated.
gravenimage says
salim wrote:
Zoniek: As explained somewhere else, the pre 1948 violence was related to proposed creation of Israel.
……………………….
salim, violence against Jews by Muslims dates back *centuries*, long before the state of Israel was even conceived. I pointed out a number of examples elsewhere on this thread myself.
The “Prophet” Muhammed himself slaughtered Jews.
Wellington says
Israel was founded on ethnic grounds as much as on religious grounds (after all, a great portion of Israeli Jews back in 1948, and an even greater portion today, are not religious at all). In any case, you have some fifty Muslim nations founded, at least in part, if not entirely, on religious grounds. So, why do you object to a single Jewish state while not mentioning at all sundry nations founded as an Islamic state?
Yeah, this I want to hear. Your turn, salim.
Right now, I should, in the interest of full disclosure and honesty, assert something about Islam and it is this: among all the major religions of the world, it is most terrible at fair play and is, easily so, the major religion most full of self-pity and a lack of graciousness, as well as being the major religion of the world most inimical to freedom.
gravenimage says
+1
gravenimage says
salim wrote:
I am a frequent reader of JW and find myself in agreement with most (but not all) of its articles exposing Islam, which was the religion I practiced for about 40 years. However, I find myself in disagreement with most of your views on the issue of the Israeli/ Palestinian conflict. I managed to get rid of my strongly held beliefs about religion and related political issues but I still cannot accept your point of view regarding Israel and would appreciate it if somebody can explain to me where I got it wrong.
………………………..
salim, I am sadly not surprised to hear this, given the virulent hatred of Jewish people you must have been raised on.
More:
My questions to you about Israel:
Its right to exist: The state was created based on religion and a claimed ‘divine promise’ that took place thousands of years ago. That reason was unacceptable to me when I was a Muslim and still unacceptable to me as an atheist. As to the historic claims, do you think they still valid after thousands of years? I don’t think so. Assuming the historic claim is valid, why displacing the Palestinians?
………………………..
The “Palestinians”–they were never called this until 1967; really, they are just the local Muslims–never had to leave Israel. They did so because other Muslims told them that Israel would be destroyed.
Moreover, many of those claiming to be “Palestinians” never lived in what is today Israel. They are, as noted, just the local Muslims.
Today Israel is a vibrant and modern democratic state, and the only one in the region that allows for freedom of religion. That you still want to see her destroyed is quite disturbing.
What do you think would be the fate of Jews, Christians, and Atheists there is this was overrun and turned into another Gaza?
More:
The Palestinians: We know the Palestinians exist, there are millions of them around. We also know their fathers and grand fathers and grand grand fathers also existed in Palestine, where they lived and died. We know with certainty this happened for at least several centuries – its relatively modern history. Most probably the Palestinians lived in Palestine for millennia but let us ignore that ancient history and focus on the last five hundred years. Doesn’t this make the existing Palestinians the legitimate owners of Palestine just as the Americans are considered the legitimate owners of America, even though they only lived in America for two or three centuries?
………………………..
Sure, the Levant was invaded by Muslims, if that is what you mean. So was most of the region.
The Jews never left, though. They have lived there for a recorded history of at least 3,000 years.
More:
I am convinced the Palestinians have every right to live in Palestine, alongside the Jews who already live there.
………………………..
salim, are you *really* pretending that if Muslims take over that they will live peacefully along Jews there?
And there are plenty of Muslims who live in Israel–your implication that they do not is ridiculous. They have members serving in the Knesset.
These are the Muslims who are regularly running Jews over and stabbing them to death. Surely you have read some of these stories here?
More:
In fact, until 1948, the word “Palestinians” used to include all those who lived in Palestine (Muslims, Christians and Jews).
………………………..
Sure–Jews used to say, “Next year in Palestine”.
Muslims just hijacked the term in 1967. Beyond that, I’m not sure what your point is.
If you are claiming that the use of this term previously means that it was acknowledged that Muslims should destroy Israel and commit genocide against the Jews there, I cannot agree.
More:
May I remind you that there are Jews who always lived and still live in the West Bank city of Nablus. They are Palestinian Jews and are treated with respect by their fellow Palestinians – they are the “Sameri Jews” who, after the 1967 Israeli occupation refused to move to Israel. Despite all the “stone intifadas”, not a single stone was thrown at any Sameri Jew.
………………………..
In 1967, there were about 3,500 Christians in Nablus, but that figure dwindled to about 650 in 2008. Most Christians have been driven out.
I can find *no* indication that there are any Jews surviving in Nablus today.
If you have other information, please share it.
More:
I know Islam hates the Jews but the Arabs managed to ignore that particular teaching and coexist with the Jews for centuries in Palestine, Egypt, Iraq and Morocco. Hatred of the Jews became a ‘national duty’ only after the creation of Israel.
………………………..
I’m sorry, this is completely mistaken. The idea that Dar-al-Islam was a paradise of tolerance for Jews until the founding of Israel is just ludicrous. There were pogroms against Jews all over the Muslim world.
You cite Iraq, which was the site of the horrifying Farhud pogrom in 1941. There were murderous riots against Jews in Egypt in 1945.
There were waves of Jihad against Jews in Palestine in the 1920s, culminating in the Jihad terror attacks of 1929. Large numbers of Jews were killed, and the entire Jewish community in Hebron was wiped out. There was another wave of terror in 1936, and another in 1938.
http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=118&x_article=1691
It is simply not true that Muslim violence against Jews did not exist before the founding of Israel.
A good place to start learning about this is Andrew Bostom’s book, “The Legacy of Islamic Antisemitism”:
https://www.amazon.com/Legacy-Islamic-Antisemitism-Sacred-History/dp/1591025540
Wellington says
Brilliant retort, gravenimage. My compliments to you again on decimating bogus arguments. No one here as a commenter does it better than you. I wonder how (or if) the deceiver, salim, will answer you (if he does, I predict it will come with a lot of insults and irrelevancies).
Instructive (yet again) that EVERY defense of Islam fails—–if only one is knowledgeable enough to begin with about this spiritual fascism masquerading as a real religion. This would, of course, exclude a lot of people, among them being a plethora of administrators at Stanford, a hell of a lot of Stanford students, the current Pope, Theresa May most surely, Angela Merkel no doubt, the fool of fools who is currently Prime Minister of Canada, Macron most certainly in France, the vast bulk of those who constitute that bureaucratic nightmare and idiocy which goes by the acronym, EU, numerous news outlets staffed by rank (and willfully ignorant) apologists for Islam, such as the BBC, CBC, ABC, NBC, MSNBC (extra so here), CBS, and so on. Yes, it’s a long list of dhimmis who serve as stalwart allies, in effect useful idiots, for the worst religion ever created by man.
The rot, which is any defense of Islam, continues, whether by Buttlim or dhimmi. No end in sight right now. Damn shame——–for all of mankind. Time for a Yuengling Porter (while I can still have one if Muzzies and obedient dhimmis get their way).
LeftisruiningCanada says
+1 Glad you both joined in 🙂
LeftisruiningCanada says
“the fool of fools who is currently Prime Minister of Canada”
And at least we are excelling at something 😉
gravenimage says
Thank you, Wellington and LeftisruiningCanada.
Wellington, for what it is worth, I do not believe that salim is a deceiver.
He has been posting here for quite some time, and I do believe that he is a Muslim apostate and is opposed to Jihad.
But like so many, I think he made it about half-way out of Islam, and sadly still believes the Jew-hatred he was taught for so many years.
salim says
Thanks to all who posted replies.
There is so much to respond to. I’ll try to make it short and readable.
Chand: Your post is excellent and logical. “Actually, it is a military question, like always. The Jews defeated the Arabs in war and history is written by the victors. Plain and simple.” How true. If Israel was defeated in its wars we would be discussing something else. “Israel is here to stay” again true and I agree.
gravenimage:
“salim, I am sadly not surprised to hear this, given the virulent hatred of Jewish people you must have been raised on”. You are right, I was brainwashed to believe in stupid things but managed to free myself from the gravity of ignorance. However, don’t you think you too was subjected to a different kind of brainwashing but did nothing about it? With all respect I think you have and may show some of it by the end of this post.
“The “Palestinians”–they were never called this until 1967; really, they are just the local Muslims–never had to leave Israel” Not true at all, I am about 70 years now and and heard the word Palestinian since I started to hear. This probably would be true If I was 700 years old. The land was called Palestine and the people lived in it were naturally called Palestinians. Of course, there was no need to use the term ‘Palestinian’ because Palestine was part of a larger province called “Shamm” which belonged to the Ottomans. I call a man from LA ‘American’, not Californian. The Palestine Broadcasting Service (PBS) was named as such in the 1930s. The Balfour declaration of 1917 referred to Palestine as Palestine, therefore, the people who lived there were called Palestinians.
“That you still want to see her (Israel) destroyed is quite disturbing”. Where did I say I want Israel destroyed. I said the opposite repeatedly even though I believe it was morally wrong to create the state and at the same time create a massive refugee problem.
“The Jews never left, though. They have lived there for a recorded history of at least 3,000 years”. They left, which is why we have millions of them in Europe and America. To bring them back to Palestine, after 3000 years, was a bit too much. Now it happened, let them stay but we have to deal with the Palestinian problem which we created.
“And there are plenty of Muslims who live in Israel–your implication that they do not is ridiculous”. I didn’t imply that, I know there are millions of Israeli Arabs. I visited Israel and saw more Arabs than Jews! In fact the demographic projections is that the Arabs will outnumber the Jews in just 20 years!! Which is why I believe its better for Israel to get this sorted now, in a generation or so we might see an Arab as prime minister or in charge of the IDF!! Israel is worried about Iran when it should be worried about the problems from within. In many ways, I find Israel like Germany or the UK.
“If you are claiming that the use of this term previously means that it was acknowledged that Muslims should destroy Israel and commit genocide against the Jews there, I cannot agree”.
Why you keep thinking of me like that?
“In 1967, there were about 3,500 Christians in Nablus, but that figure dwindled to about 650 in 2008. Most Christians have been driven out.
I can find *no* indication that there are any Jews surviving in Nablus today.”
Yes, there were Christians in the village of Rafidia ( now part of Nablus, with a big church) but they were sensible enough to leave! The Muslim Arabs in the Middle East have become too religious since the 1970, too religious for Christians or non practicing Muslims to live comfortably. This bothers me most and I want to end. The ex Muslims are doing a great job in this field and are gaining grounds fast (While America, Israel and Europe are busy whitewashing Islam)
Please research Nablus’ Jewish community or Sameri (Samaritans) Jews to answer your question
I didn’t know about Farhud program, sorry. As to the anti Jewish violence before the creation of Israel, yes it happened on several occasion but was connected to the proposed creation of Israel.
“A good place to start learning”. Start learning? after 70 years? I read a lot, learned a lot and experienced a lot and, honestly, still cant explain what is going on!
May I add this:
I DONT BELIEVE IN RELIGIONS. If there is something I am reasonably sure about it is that religions are heap of lies. All prophets, if existed, were liars. God, if exists, didn’t send scriptures or commandments. Religions were important to maintain stable governments in the past but have no advantage in the 21C.
I say I am an Arab because I came from an Arabic country not because I am ethnically an Arab. I believe after ten generations or so its difficult to maintain ethnic purity. Its OK to use the words Arab and Jew for practical reasons but it is not necessarily true.
gravenimage says
Salim wrote:
gravenimage:
“salim, I am sadly not surprised to hear this, given the virulent hatred of Jewish people you must have been raised on”. You are right, I was brainwashed to believe in stupid things but managed to free myself from the gravity of ignorance. However, don’t you think you too was subjected to a different kind of brainwashing but did nothing about it? With all respect I think you have and may show some of it by the end of this post.
……………………………..
Salim, you are mistaken if you believe that I have never encountered anything but support for Israel–that is anything but the case. I am well aware of voices even in the US that either naively believe that Israel can survive under Muslim rule, that do not support Israel and want to see her destruction, or that simply hate Jews.
There is a lot of support for Israel in the US, but it is *hardly* universal. I had to make my own mind, looking at history, at the civilized state of Israel today, and all other factors.
More:
“The “Palestinians”–they were never called this until 1967; really, they are just the local Muslims–never had to leave Israel” Not true at all, I am about 70 years now and and heard the word Palestinian since I started to hear. This probably would be true If I was 700 years old. The land was called Palestine and the people lived in it were naturally called Palestinians…
……………………………..
Using this term *only* for the local Muslims dates only to 1967. Before that, it also referred to Jews.
Are you claiming that “Palestinian” also refers to Jews today? If so, you are mistaken.
More:
“That you still want to see her (Israel) destroyed is quite disturbing”. Where did I say I want Israel destroyed. I said the opposite repeatedly even though I believe it was morally wrong to create the state and at the same time create a massive refugee problem.
……………………………..
This “refugee problem” is artificially maintained after almost seventy years. No other group has its own UN agency, and surrounding Muslim states mostly refuse citizenship. This is intentional, so that they remain a threat to Israel.
More:
“The Jews never left, though. They have lived there for a recorded history of at least 3,000 years”. They left, which is why we have millions of them in Europe and America. To bring them back to Palestine, after 3000 years, was a bit too much. Now it happened, let them stay but we have to deal with the Palestinian problem which we created.
……………………………..
We’ve heard this claim before–that all Jews in Israel are Europeans and Americans. This simply is not true. There has always been a large Jewish presence in the Levant, even under the most oppressive circumstances.
More:
“And there are plenty of Muslims who live in Israel–your implication that they do not is ridiculous”. I didn’t imply that, I know there are millions of Israeli Arabs. I visited Israel and saw more Arabs than Jews! In fact the demographic projections is that the Arabs will outnumber the Jews in just 20 years!! Which is why I believe its better for Israel to get this sorted now, in a generation or so we might see an Arab as prime minister or in charge of the IDF!!
……………………………..
In that case, Israel will cease to be Israel, and Muslims will turn Israel into another Islamic hell hole. Jews will be driven out or mass slaughtered. This is a threat; I don’t think it is one that happen in twenty years, though, and I am not eager to see it come to pass.
More:
Israel is worried about Iran when it should be worried about the problems from within. In many ways, I find Israel like Germany or the UK.
……………………………..
Israel is threatened by Muslims both within and without. Just look at the constant Jihad terror attacks there.
More:
“If you are claiming that the use of this term previously means that it was acknowledged that Muslims should destroy Israel and commit genocide against the Jews there, I cannot agree”.
Why you keep thinking of me like that?
……………………………..
I am glad if you don’t personally support that outcome; but this is what would happen.
More:
“In 1967, there were about 3,500 Christians in Nablus, but that figure dwindled to about 650 in 2008. Most Christians have been driven out.
I can find *no* indication that there are any Jews surviving in Nablus today.”
Yes, there were Christians in the village of Rafidia ( now part of Nablus, with a big church) but they were sensible enough to leave! The Muslim Arabs in the Middle East have become too religious since the 1970, too religious for Christians or non practicing Muslims to live comfortably. This bothers me most and I want to end. The ex Muslims are doing a great job in this field and are gaining grounds fast (While America, Israel and Europe are busy whitewashing Islam)
……………………………..
“Too religious” for Muslims always means that Infidels, Atheists, and less religious Muslims are under threat.
More:
Please research Nablus’ Jewish community or Sameri (Samaritans) Jews to answer your question
……………………………..
In the 1931 census–long before the founding of Israel–there were just 6 Jews left in Nablus. I can see no signs that there are any left today.
More:
I didn’t know about Farhud program, sorry. As to the anti Jewish violence before the creation of Israel, yes it happened on several occasion but was connected to the proposed creation of Israel.
……………………………..
The idea that all violence against Jews by Muslims before 1948 was linked to the founding of Israel is simply mistaken; such violence dates back centuries, all the way back to the days of the “Prophet” himself.
More:
“A good place to start learning”. Start learning? after 70 years? I read a lot, learned a lot and experienced a lot and, honestly, still cant explain what is going on!
……………………………..
I’m in my late fifties, and I’m still learning things, almost every day. I think that anyone who has their faculties can.
I still recommend “The Legacy of Islamic Antisemitism” that I mentioned above.
More:
May I add this:
I DONT BELIEVE IN RELIGIONS. If there is something I am reasonably sure about it is that religions are heap of lies. All prophets, if existed, were liars. God, if exists, didn’t send scriptures or commandments. Religions were important to maintain stable governments in the past but have no advantage in the 21C…
……………………………..
That’s fine. No one in the free world has to follow any faith; but they can freely practice if they wish.
Consider this: Israel is the *only* place in the Middle East where it is safe to be a Muslim apostate, and where it is safe to be an Atheist.
If you have no other reason than this for supporting Israel, I hope you consider it.
salim says
gravenimage:
This thread is getting very long but I don’t mind as long as we learn from it (nice debating you)
“I had to make my own mind, looking at history, at the civilized state of Israel today, and all other factors”.
You might be right on this but with all respect, if you still believe in a religion then you are still brainwashed. Remember that if you happened to be raised in my village in the ME chances are you would be a Muslim going round and round defending Islam and would say “I thought about it carefully and made my mind that its the right religion”.
Palestinians -“Using this term *only* for the local Muslims dates only to 1967. Before that, it also referred to Jews”.
You speak with amazing confidence. In Egypt, Iraq and Syria (as examples) we used to call people coming from that area ‘Palestinians’ without asking if they were Muslims or Christians. This is something I know first hand. I am not sure if I understand your point of view on this.
“This “refugee problem” is artificially maintained after almost seventy years”
You suggest that they should have sorted out their problem and settled somewhere leaving Israel alone. I believe the ‘right to return’ is a basic human right for those who wish to return and should be respected by Israel.
“We’ve heard this claim before–that all Jews in Israel are Europeans and Americans”
I didn’t make that claim. I am aware there were Palestinian and Egyptian Jews (and others) all the time.
“there were just 6 Jews left in Nablus. I can see no signs that there are any left today”.
I dont know what are your sources because they always seem to disagree with mine. However, I know this first hand and I don’t have to refer to articles on this one. I was honoured to be invited to visit a few of them in their houses on mount Gerzim – very nice and generous people. I was told they were around 400 of them in that neighbourhood .
I also found this article about them (which I didn’t read):
http://www.middleeasteye.net/in-depth/features/ancient-samaritans-mount-gerisim-1844065721
Wellington says
You believe “the right of return” is a basic human right, salim? Uh-huh, where else has this “right” occurred? Whoever established this right? You? The decrepit UN? Perhaps in the Sudetenland portion of what is now the Czech Republic for the poor Germans expelled from there right after WWII? Perhaps in what is now western Poland which used to be eastern Germany? Perhaps elsewhere if you could cite an example.
The “right of return” is nonsense, not based in reality (or law) at all. Wars happen and when they do, duh, the victorious take territory and no “right of return” ensues. Israel is held to a standard applied to no other country in history. Really, salim, your rank bias against Israel, the only free country in all of the Middle East, and where Israeli Arabs enjoy far more rights than they do in ANY of the over twenty Arab countries that exist, is patently obvious.
But, in the alternative, as lawyers such as myself very much like to argue, why have you NEVER stood up for the Jews “right of return,” which dates back far, far, far further back than any Arab right to the region in question? Yeah, answer this one if you will.
Your turn.
salim says
willington
I definitely stand for the Jews’ rights to return to Egypt, Iraq and Morocco (and get compensated). I do not support anybody’s ‘right to return’ to a country after 3000 years. Actually, it won’t be called right to ‘return’ but right to invade.
As far as I know, after all the wars in the 20 C, the Palestinians are the only people who still have no rights to return.
At the same time I want to preserve Israel and secure its future. Israel cannot continue to exist in its current hostile environment, its simply unsustainable. The nuclear weapons give Israel a theoretical upper hand but no practical use. Remember that Isarel is also threatened from within.
Wellington says
I gave you an example, salim, of another people with no right of return—–Germans in eastern Germany which became western Poland. I also mentioned the Sudetenland of then Czechoslovakia where it wasn’t a matter of return when WWII ended but of actually the Czechs kicking out the Germans from that portion of Bohemia where they had been for centuries. So, your assertion that the so-called Palestinians are the only people in the 20th century with no right of return is flat out wrong, as are so many other of your statements.
Look, you start a war, as the Arab Muslim world did in 1948 and you lose, you can expect consequences. The Germans learned this. So should the so-called Palestinians. And remember, those Arab Muslims who remained were granted Israeli citizenship. Those that fled thought that Israel was going to be destroyed. They have no right to return, but I agree that Jews should be able to return to countries like Egypt and Iraq where they were forcibly expelled but what Jew in his or her right mind would want to?
gravenimage says
Salim wrote:
gravenimage:
This thread is getting very long but I don’t mind as long as we learn from it (nice debating you)
“I had to make my own mind, looking at history, at the civilized state of Israel today, and all other factors”.
You might be right on this but with all respect, if you still believe in a religion then you are still brainwashed.
………………………………….
I don’t believe that Israel has a right to exist for religious reason, Salim, but for all the reasons I noted.
More:
Remember that if you happened to be raised in my village in the ME chances are you would be a Muslim going round and round defending Islam and would say “I thought about it carefully and made my mind that its the right religion”.
………………………………….
You were able to think for yourself and leave Islam, Salim.
For myself, I grew up in an abusive home in the underclass replete with violence and petty crime and worse; I left that and forged a new life for myself.
Of course I am influenced by having grown up in the civilized West; but I regularly exercise freedom of thought. There are others in the West–as I noted–who do not support Israel (or oppose Jihad).
I believe that my decision to do so is both rational and moral.
More:
Palestinians -“Using this term *only* for the local Muslims dates only to 1967. Before that, it also referred to Jews”.
You speak with amazing confidence. In Egypt, Iraq and Syria (as examples) we used to call people coming from that area ‘Palestinians’ without asking if they were Muslims or Christians. This is something I know first hand. I am not sure if I understand your point of view on this.
………………………………….
That proves my point. While the term today is used to characterize local Muslims and–occasionally–local Arab Christians, it is no longer used to describe Jews, as it used to be pre-1967.
More:
“This “refugee problem” is artificially maintained after almost seventy years”
You suggest that they should have sorted out their problem and settled somewhere leaving Israel alone. I believe the ‘right to return’ is a basic human right for those who wish to return and should be respected by Israel.
………………………………….
Right now, millions of Muslims whose ancestors never once lived in what today is Israel are demanding the “right of return”. Were Israel to acquiesce to this, she would be destroyed almost immediately by the influx of violent Muslims.
More:
“We’ve heard this claim before–that all Jews in Israel are Europeans and Americans”
I didn’t make that claim. I am aware there were Palestinian and Egyptian Jews (and others) all the time.
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OK–good.
More:
“there were just 6 Jews left in Nablus. I can see no signs that there are any left today”.
I dont know what are your sources because they always seem to disagree with mine. However, I know this first hand and I don’t have to refer to articles on this one. I was honoured to be invited to visit a few of them in their houses on mount Gerzim – very nice and generous people. I was told they were around 400 of them in that neighbourhood .
………………………………….
I tracked this down. I imagine you are referring to the Har Brakha settlement on the side of Mount Gerizim.
These are *not* Jews living under the “Palestinian Authority”, but an Israeli settlement protected by the Israeli military. It has only been there since 1983, and has no direct link to the Jews who were living in Nablus in the past. And like any other settlement in the “West Bank”, the residents of Har Brakha are regularly threatened by the Muslim “Palestinians”.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Har_Brakha
More:
I also found this article about them (which I didn’t read):
http://www.middleeasteye.net/in-depth/features/ancient-samaritans-mount-gerisim-1844065721
………………………………….
Salim, these are not Jews–they are Samaritans (there is a small Samaritan community here and near Tel Aviv).
And even they are not safe–they had to flee Nablus during the first Intifada.
This article *does not* prove that Jews are living safely in Nablus under Muslim rule–far from it.
More, replying to Wellington:
willington
I definitely stand for the Jews’ rights to return to Egypt, Iraq and Morocco (and get compensated).
………………………………….
Any Jew who tried to return to these Muslim lads would be lucky to get out alive.
Here’s a foolish Jewish fellow who thought things were changing after the “Arab Spring”:
“Returning Libyan Jew says he’s been threatened over plans to restore Tripoli’s synagogue”
https://www.jihadwatch.org/2011/10/returning-libyan-jew-says-hes-been-threatened-over-plans-to-restore-tripolis-synagogue
Luckily, he was able to flee back to Italy. But as grim as this story was, it could easily have been much worse.
More:
I do not support anybody’s ‘right to return’ to a country after 3000 years. Actually, it won’t be called right to ‘return’ but right to invade.
………………………………….
You acknowledged above that Jews had lived continuously in Israel; now you are, bizarrely, claiming that Jews have not lived in the Levant for 3,000 years, which is just absurd.
More:
As far as I know, after all the wars in the 20 C, the Palestinians are the only people who still have no rights to return.
At the same time I want to preserve Israel and secure its future. Israel cannot continue to exist in its current hostile environment, its simply unsustainable.
………………………………….
Israel lives in a hostile environment because all pious Muslims want to see Israel destroyed and all Jews dead. The idea that this would change if only Israel allowed hordes of Muslims to invade from all over the region simply makes no sense.
More:
The nuclear weapons give Israel a theoretical upper hand but no practical use. Remember that Isarel is also threatened from within.
………………………………….
The idea that Israel would be less threatened if she allowed herself to be overrun by ravening Muslim hordes simply makes no sense, I’m afraid.
eduardo odraude says
Salim, one of the best and most detailed answers to your question is Harvard law professor Alan Dershowitz’s The Case for Israel.
LeftisruiningCanada says
Yes, i’ve heard that it is a very good book on the subject. I have it, but Londonistan came first on the list! The same author has other books along the same lines.
Wellington says
Yes, it’s a great book, eduardo. I read it a few years ago. Dershowitz, as you probably know, is an emeritus Harvard Law Professor. He is a traditional liberal, an old-fashion liberal, and has himself decried what has happened to liberalism as it has morphed into leftism over the past half century. He is one of the few liberals I know of who is ready to take on the Left. I might add that he has a brilliant legal mind. I disagree with many of his political ideas but he is a principled man, something that can’t be said of leftists.
gravenimage says
This is a book I still have to read, Eduardo.
No Fear says
I know nothing much about the whole Palestine/Israel thing. I am a newby on the topic. But I have seen a video on YouTube where the Hamas Interior Minister says that the modern Palestinians came from such places as Yemen and Egypt. Can anyone comment on that?
carpediadem says
It’s true. Plus from Jordan and Egypt, and some even from Bulgaria!
salim says
Its difficult to say, its very complicated after several generations. Some DNA research relate the Palestinians to the Kurds or even Jews!! You say from Bulgaria!!
gravenimage says
Yes–not all “Palestinians” just came from what is today Israel. Many are just local Arab Muslims who came from what is now Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, and many other places.
But it fits the Muslim narrative to claim that all of these Muslims are “refugees” from Israel.
carpediadem says
Arabs have never controlled Palestine, Jews have always been the owners despite being exiled by various conquerors. However, there have always been Jews in ancient Israel/Palestine/modern Israel.
Wellington says
Well, carpediadem, wouldn’t you say that the Arabs controlled Palestine under the Umayyad and Abbasid dynasties (661 to 1258 A.D.) and actually came into possession of it during the period of the First Four Caliphs (632-661 A.D.) around 637 A.D.?
As for there always being Jews in the Promised Land (not to be confused with New Jersey), I agree that there were always some Jews there even after the Romans expelled them from the region no later than the end of the Second Jewish Revolt (132-135 A.D.), thus inaugurating the Diaspora. So, the Jews can accurately claim that there has been continued Jewish occupation of Palestine for well over three thousand years.
Wellington says
I should have mentioned that by around 1000 A.D. the Arab Abbasid caliph had become a figurehead in Baghdad and the newly arrived Turks were essentially in charge of many areas, including Palestine, so true, actual, Arab control of Palestine would have lasted for about 350 years.
Wellington says
I remember reading about some Englishman in the nineteenth century who traveled throughout the Middle East and he said that just about the greatest curse that a Muslim could utter was that someone was “a dirty Jew.” Jews have been treated as second-class citizens (or even worse) by Muslims from Islam’s inception. Nazis picked up on the idea of Jews wearing special badges from what Muslims required of Jews in the Middle Ages, for instance in Muslim Spain. The idea that Arabs (and other Muslims) pretty much ignored all the Jew hatred in the Koran (examples being found in Suras 2,5 and 7) until the possibility of a Jewish state came into the picture with the Balfour Declaration (1917) is flatly false on its face.
gravenimage says
Spot on, Wellington.
M says
Pakistan was created by the British and no one questions its right to exist. No one screams about Pakistan as a Muslim state that displaced millions of Hindus when it was created. Chew on that.
Jack Dawkins says
Jared will save your presidency ., not!
gravenimage says
So–you are sneering at standing against Jihad? Why?
Jack Dawkins says
I don’t believe JEWHADIS are friends of the anti-Jihad movement. They are ZION FIRST and fuck everybody else.
gravenimage says
“Jewhadis”? There is nowhere where Jews are mass slaughtering Gentiles in the name of Judaism, nor are Jews trying to impose Judaism on everyone, as are Muslims with Islam.
This is utter claptrap.
Antisemitic creeps like “Jack Dawkins” can refuse to stand with Jews against Jihad, but this just means that he actually wants to see Islam violently triumph over the “filthy Infidels”.
He is no ally of ours.
Wellington says
Echoing gravenimage (but in my own words), you’re a complete fool. JEWHADIS? Talk about moral equivalency thinking at its stupidest, you managed it.
gary@erko says
Notice that Trump did not say “West Jerusalem”.
gravenimage says
Good point, Gary. But even his saying “West Jerusalem” would have enraged Muslims.
LeftisruiningCanada says
” bloodshed, ignorance and terror.”
A good way to say “islam” without saying “islam”
JawsV says
Churchill described Islam as the “religion of blood and war.” (1899)
salim says
And it was him who supported the Saudi clan against their more secular and less fanatic adversaries..! Also it was him who met with AbdulAziz to formulate the future of the Middle East, sidelining King Farouk of Egypt and the king of Iraq (both were the riches and most powerful in the Middle East.
Politics!
gravenimage says
Jay, it is true that the West has made many, many missteps when it comes to Islam.
It is also true, though, that despite her equivocation, that modern Israel would not exist today were it not for the actions–no matter how sometimes ambivalent and grudging–of Great Britain.
Brian says
Thank you Mr. President.Long overdue.
Alarmed Pig Farmer says
Let’s take inventory here:
1) Jews have been in Jerusalem for about 4,000 years; the Palestinians didn’t exist until after 1966.
2) Jews started moving back into the Holy Land in the 1800s, and bought property from absentee Arab landlords..
3) When the Mandate was announced after WWII, Arabs began migrating into the Holy Land anticipating that Israel would turn out to be a prosperous and enjoyable place to live.
4) Israel won much of its land after they won it fair and square in a defensive war after the Arabs attacked it in 1966; Israel has since turned the Gaza and the Sinai back to the Arabs.
Charles says
I am VERY GLAD that the President did this!
BUT, of course! It will drive the Satan worshippers NUTZ!
May God please shield and protect the people of Israel!
LeftisruiningCanada says
Yes, let’s pray for the peace of Jerusalem.
Ibrahim itace muhammed says
If mad devil Trump śigned the document recögnising Jerusalem aś capital of fascist evil Zionist state of Israhell, can he alter UN resolutions , more particularly UN resolution No. 181 declaring East Jerusalem as Palestinian territory? It is just worthless piece of paper he signed with no legal effect whatsoever. Evil United States is now heading to demise as end of an Empire. Muslims will rise up against this evil entity called the United States.
Flavius Claudius Iulianus says
I. I. muhammed, your comments on this site are never deleted, they are debated. If contrarian comments were posted on a site called, say, kurfarwatch.org then the comments would be deleted and the commenter would be rooted out and killed. That’s the difference between us: we are civilized and you (the plural ‘you’) are uncivilized, seventh century barbarians who are just barely bright enough to use twentieth century technology.
gabi says
Leting others to freely debate is democracy. Good. Leting others to vote for their beliefs is democracy and good. Ok. But using free vote and free speech the nazi party won elections in 30s Germany and made Hitler a chancelor. Same with muslims: let them come, build them mosques, give them rights, let them vote and compete in elections, wait for 2-3 generations for muslims to become more than 10% in a Christian / Budhist / whatever country and there will be the same like nazi party in Germany in 30s. They know very well these demands of a terrorist policy. They don’t know history – and don’t care – but few important things they know very good. And this is one of them.
eduardo odraude says
Hitler never won a majority of the German vote. At one point he did get about 44% of the vote. That made the Nazis the leaders of a governing coalition. Unfortunately, the parliament soon voted to let the Nazis and their partners govern without parliament’s consent. So democracy was used to destroy democracy. That is always a risk.
Flavius Claudius Iulianus says
“Same with muslims: let them come, build them mosques, give them rights, let them vote and compete in elections, wait for 2-3 generations …”
But Mohammadans can never truly be American citizens; they cannot, IN GOOD FAITH, swear allegiance to the American Constitution and man-made laws. It is against their most fundamental beliefs (shariah law). Mohammadism is, by its very tenets, seditious to democracies. (It is the height of absurdity and stupidity to allow a member of your legislative chamber to be sworn in by taking an oath on a Koran. This book allows and enjoins Mohammadans to make false oaths, and engage in deception! This belief system requires that Allah’s law take precedence of all man-made law!)
That is why any country that operates under the rule of man-made law should keep Mohammadans out or never grant them citizenship.
LeftisruiningCanada says
Yes, how can you ever trust those who follow a man who said it was OK to deny following him, indeed, that you could curse his name, if it meant you could get close enough to an enemy by doing so, to kill him?
Champ says
The malevolent and repulsive “ibrahim itace muhammed” wrote:
“Muslims will rise up against this evil entity called the United States.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Oh please, mohammedans are no match for the One True God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob! Mark my words, your empty threats will never come to fruition.
Davegreybeard says
Merry Christmas Champ!
May God and the Christian Saints be with us, should we need the assistance of our old friends Smith and Wesson, Colt, Remington, Winchester, and Ruger.
Champ says
Hey Merry Christmas Davegreybeard!
Yes, of course those guys are always good to have on hand 😉
gravenimage says
Merry Christmas to you both, Champ and Davegreybeard!
Rolf Wittwer says
UN is an islamic tool, to conquer the planet.
Flavius Claudius Iulianus says
It has become that, hasn’t it?
gravenimage says
How many times has Ibrahim itace muhammed now claimed that Muslims are going to destroy the United States? Just trying to keep count…
eduardo odraude says
Itace, Trump in his speech left the status of East Jerusalem somewhat undetermined, pending a peace deal.
maghan says
Stupid sand Arab just get your smelly Neanderthal @@@ back to your flimsy tents and goats in Arabia. Conquest with knives and machetes is tantamount to murder and theft. LOL. You stupid fools think that you can plagiarize other peoples’ religions and claim what is theirs as yours. Jerusalem is a Jewish creation and they own it outright.
SAM says
JW readers. Please support Trump. This maybe our last chance against Islam in our life time. This is GREAT!!!!!
Flavius Claudius Iulianus says
Now give the American People a Christmas gift as well and put the Ikwan on the list of terrorist organizations.
dumbledoresarmy says
YES! That would be a great move. And the Gulen Movement, as well; and kick Fethullah Gulen right back to Turkey and may he and Erdogan, birds of an evil feather, have much joy of one another… and kick Turkey out of NATO.
gravenimage says
I would *love* to see both of these things happen.
Wellington says
I would add here another reason for grievance, gravenimage, and to you, dda, as well, one that is very personal, and it is this: This Muslim fascist, Gulen, resides in my life-long state of Pennsylvania, where I was born and have been a citizen of, and no other American state, for my entire life.
Oh yeah, he is too near to me, both geographically and symbolically. He supports a belief system in Islam which is so antithetical to the Christian founder of Pennsylvania, William Penn, who, far ahead of his time for the 17th century, allowed all to settle in his province provided they believed in God. This included Jews and Roman Catholics (St. Joseph’s Catholic Church off 3rd Street, the oldest Catholic Church in Philly still standing, founded in 1733 and built fifteen years after Penn’s death, stands as an architectural testimony to the enlightened mind of Pennsylvania’s founder—-and it is indeed a very special church to visit).
Gulen AND ALL MUSLIMS residing today in Pennsylvania insult the legacy of William Penn, who allowed for a tolerance even back in the 17th century which, to this very day, is deuce difficult, if not impossible, to find in any Muslim-majority nation.
And I agree with you again, dda, in your assertion that Turkey, under Erdogan, makes a mockery of NATO and what it stands for (liberty above all) and thus should be kicked out of said military alliance, the greatest and most powerful military alliance in history for the protection and promotion of freedom.
Sorry for the long comment here, ladies, but my blood was up more than usual because of Pennsylvania, which a former Governor of Pennsylvania, Robert Casey Sr. (his son, Robert Casey Jr., is now the senior Senator from Pennsylvania and just another sad-ass leftist Democrat which his father was not, his father being an old-fashion Truman Democrat the likes of which are difficult to find anymore; indeed, said Democratic Governor, a devout Catholic, was denied the opportunity to speak at the 1992 Democratic convention which nominated that moral cretin, one Bill Clinton, for the Presidency PRECISELY because he was pro-life) called “the greatest state in the greatest country on earth.” Naturally, I have a built-in prejudice here for such a comment, but I hope the two of you will understand since the two of you tend very much to understand a great deal. OK, enough already, no?
gravenimage says
Yes, Wellington. Gulen lives in an armed compound in Pennsylvania, which is just insane. Even more worrying is his sinister network of schools.
I would like to see him deported and his madrasses shut down.
Dov Berrol says
As we say in Hebrew: “Kol Hakavod”! All the honour to you, Mr. President.
Recognizing the obvious – that the capital city of Israel and the Jewish Nation is Jerusalem – will harm no one – even the Arab residents of the city. We Jews know how to honour the “other” because we are all reminded “ger hayiti b’eretz Mitzrayim” – and Avraham Avinu taught us about hospitality.
Now, can we get everyone to refer to the city by its original Hebrew name Yerushalayim?
“Im eshkachech Yerushalayim, tishkach yemini…”
gravenimage says
+1
LeftisruiningCanada says
Respect.
pemba says
Well done President Trump.
Rolf Wittwer says
Of course – soon western Embassies, Consulats and Companies, shops, cars, flags etc.etc. will be set on fire again.
Thousands of fanatic hateful Analphabets will block, fill and shout in our streets again. Worldwide.
Hate against our Civilisation will take place in violent forms again.
Bombs will be prepared and probably used anywhere at anytime.
Since more than 1400 years – nothing has changed.
“Welcome back to the primitive AK 47-stoneage?”
One imagine, how our planet would look without the “Religion of peace”!
Religion?
Champ says
BRAVO PRESIDENT TRUMP!!!!!
✡ WE STAND WITH ISRAEL!!!!! ✡
Champ says
President Trump is a PEACEMAKER!
Are you?
gravenimage says
Hear, hear, Champ! Am Yisrael Chai!
StacyGirl says
Thank you President Trump for formally recognizing the truth, even if it drives the psychopaths of the world over the edge. They are truly thriving on this.
gravenimage says
Full Video and Transcript: President Trump’s Historic Speech Recognizing Jerusalem as the Capital of Israel
…………………….
I confess I have often had mixed feelings about President Trump; here, I can just cheer him wholeheartedly!
DogOnPorch says
Great move!
Kanda says
Jerusalem has belonged to the state of Israel for thousands of years.Finally,we have a man who is not intimidated by islam.President Trump is a brave.and is not afraid to speak the truth.we have the opportunity iwith this administration to turn things around..May the lord direct his footsteps
Bezelel says
Doing the same thing, expecting different results is a description of insanity. It follows that anyone opposed to PDJT’s move must at least prefer perpetuating insanity. That is, anyone who really expects for peace to break out under past policy. That rules out the invented people of course because they have no intentions of peace. Every bit of ground gained by the p.a. is used to attack Israel, UN schools included. Netanyahu has said before that the p.a.’s behavior needs to be factored into any peace process. Well Duh !!! That makes too much sense.How about stop teaching the children to hate Jews? Stop digging terror tunnels etc etc…The rest of the islamic world could take hint from PDJT and let Israel and the p.a. work it out without butting in. The belligerent bastards do not need any reward for acting like A–holes. They need to know that their blowhard posturing has consequences.
Lydia says
Yay! Happy for Israel!
: D
Just in time for Hanukkah, a celebration about Israel’s protection against the Greeks in B.C. times.
Just be on guard folks, they are already threatening backlash.
dumbledoresarmy says
Wouldn’t it be nice if the Embassy move took place on the first day of Hanukkah?
Jack Dawkins says
Jewhadis are no friends of the anti-Jihad. They are indoctrinated religious supremacists with an animus against Christianity!
gravenimage says
Why is the appalling “Jack Dawkins” continuing to compare civilized Jews to Jihad terrorists? This is utterly false.
Apparently he would be quite happy with his Muslim friends destroying civilized Israel and committing genocide against the Jews.
Even if he cares nothing for Jews–which he clearly does not–how can he not see how Muslims would be emboldened if they were able to wipe out Israel and the Jews?
Perhaps this is what he wants, though.
gravenimage says
Good post, DDA. I doubt this will happen before the first of the year–but it will be a welcome gift at any point.
Pong says
Shame on those jews, who voted for hilary. No president before Trump had enough carriage to face reality and recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. Shame on you!
As for the arabs, they don’t deserve anything. People, who celebrate murder of children, started aggressive wars, sell women like cattle, kill homosexuals, treat other people as slaves. Those people are subhumen. To give them a country would be a huge mistake. Fortunately, it is not going to happened. There will never be a Palestinian state. As the time goes, Israel becomes stronger and the palestinians are getting weaker. The world is tired of those dishonest beggars, even the islamic countries are less interested in palestinians.
What president Trump did today is enough for him to go into history books as one of the greatest president ofAmerica and the world statesman.
Daniel Triplett says
President Trump is a great President. But he has the motivation and the balls to be an outstanding Mt. Rushmore-level President. That’s why we elected him.
He understands Muslims are a threat, but he doesn’t yet recognize the breadth and depth of the Islamic ideological threat. And I can’t blame him either. I fought in the War for many years, separating in late 2006. But not until about 2011, did I really get it. Government resources don’t reveal the truth. I received 1500+ Intel briefs, which never honestly articulated the big-picture threat. Intel officers tell us whatever the Administration wants us to know.
Although all of us here have made Counter-jihad our hobby, we shouldn’t assume the most powerful man in the World has a similar level of attention to devote to this.
Donald J. Trump is our last chance to win the war. Who else on the horizon would replace him? Look at the 18 other candidates against whom he competed — they were all milquetoast. None would ever confront Islam.
Demographically, Trump may be our last Republican POTUS ever.
We all have a responsibility to inform this man of what we must do to extinguish this existential threat.
Get busy:
https://www.whitehouse.gov/contact
For what it’s worth, here’s my perspective:
“Total War: Extinguishing Islam from Earth”
Maj Daniel Triplett
https://medium.com/@dantriplett/islamic-jihad-is-total-war-for-all-marbles-6c858098b76e
gravenimage says
Yes–there is still a lot President does not know about Islam.
His basic instincts are good, though–a good place to start from.
Chand says
This move hardly makes a difference. Jerusalem was already under Israel’s total control. Just symbolic to please Trump’s vote bank as he had promised this during his election campaign. Will, of course, add some more fuel to Jihadi propaganda about the civilizational clash, etc.
Not much of a peace process to ‘derail’ either.
gravenimage says
It challenges Muslim threats–something the Islamophilic Chand would not understand.
Chand says
The Muslim/Jihadi threat was never from Jerusalem really. It was under Israel anyways. The threat is on unarmed civilians all over the world from cowardly Jihadi groups who could be anywhere, far from Jerusalem, Mecca or Medina. How is it challenging that threat? How does this help against terrorism?
So provide more reasons for Muslim anger and resentment as a means to combat it? Trump has no problem. He travels in bullet proof vehicles, surrounded by armed commandos. The problem is for the person on the street. This is just a vain move, gaining nothing real and is gonna fuel Jihad further.
dumbledoresarmy says
NONSENSE.
Nothing ‘fuels’ jihad’ ‘further’.
Appeasing mohammedans gains us absolutely nothing.
The mere fact of our being non-Muslim in non-Muslim states is sufficient.
Mohammedans find excuses to attack non-Muslims every. single. day. And if the non-Muslims do *nothing*…. even if they walk around on eggshells, and are grovellingly submissive and meek and do *everything* the mohammedans want – the mohammedans will *invent* – make up – insults!! This happens in Pakistan all the time. The Muslims **accuse people falsely**. These sh*t-heads will shriek that this or that poor hapless Hindu or Christian ‘blasphemed’ and then rush out in a screaming mob to kill and rape and rob and burn.. and they bl**dy well know that the accusation is a bl**dy damnable LIE that they themselves have invented, and that the poor victim who’s being accused has done NOTHING.
I am *through* with trying not to offend mohammedans. Because even if we *didn’t* we would offend them by breathing-while-infidel.
I would like to see every last one of them kicked out of the non-Muslim lands, and our military then put to work to **keep them out**.
End of.
You don’t like that? you can lump it.
dumbledoresarmy says
“fuel jihad further”.
here’s what another jihadwatch commenter wrote, some time ago, as regards someone who had been waffling on about not insulting Muslims.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2016/03/bosch-fawstin-let-me-draw-muhammad-for-you-for-everybody-draw-muhammad-day
Western Canadian says
March 19, 2016 at 8:18 pm
“Paul Yancey says
March 19, 2016 at 2:53 pm
As much as I dislike Islam and hate what they stand for, It seems like purposely insulting them is dropping ourselves down a step toward their level”
If you eat pork in their presence, you insult them.
If you wear an indication of a religious faith, you insult them.
If you live in a house finer then there’s, you insult them.
If you stop them from raping your wife/daughter/mother/niece/student/stranger, you are insulting them.
If you refuse to cower and dare walk on the same street as them, you insult them.
If you like freedom, you insult them.
If you like music, you insult them.
If you advocate for equality of all before the law, you insult them.
If you fail to pay them extortion money, you insult them.
If you think women should be or must be in charge of their own lives, you insult them.
If you think you are equal to a muslim, you insult them.
If you object to second class to lowest class status, you insult them.
If you think that a woman or female child wearing a swimsuit while swimming SHOULD NOT BE MOLESTED OR RAPED, you insult them.
If you think that if they are employed in a commercial venture and should treat all customers the same, you insult them.
If you object to the ‘halal’ extortion racket, you insult them.
If you think they should get a job and support themselves and their own families, you insult them.
If you disagree with them about anything, you insult them.
If you are NOT a muslim, you insult them by existing as anything other than a slave, to be abused/raped/murdered at will.
If you want to build or repair a church or temple, you insult them.
If you wear clothes equal to theirs (and they have NO damned fashion sense!), you insult them.
If you have a sense of humour, you insult them.
If you know the truth about islmaic (RTC) history (bloody and vicious), you insult them.
If you tell the truth about their filthy books, you insult them.
If you tell the truth about the criminal who fabricated their hate cult, you insult them.
Would you care for another 100,000 plus examples, of what ‘insults’ muslims?”
Here’s someone else on the same topic: “95 other things that fuel Muslim extremism”.
https://www.jihadwatch.org/2006/10/fitzgerald-95-things-that-fuel-muslim-extremism
“The American presence in Iraq fuels Muslim extremism.” – a conclusion concluded from the National Intelligence Estimate by many concluders in solemn conclusory conclave assembled.
“Ninety-Five Other Things That Also Fuel Muslim Extremism:
1. Salman Rushdie’s “The Satanic Verses.”
2. The British government’s protection of Salman Rushdie.
3. The American coup against Mossadegh in 1953, cited by some Iranians as the direct cause of the takeover of Iran by the Ayatollah Khomeini more than 25 years later.
4. The remarks of Pim Fortuyn about Muslim attitudes toward liberal Dutch mores.
5. The movie by Theo van Gogh about the subjection of women in Islam.
6. The election of Ayaan Hirsi Ali to the Dutch Parliament.
7. Hindus passing by mosques as Friday Prayers end….
36. The reference by Pope Benedict to a 14th century Byzantine emperor’s remarks in the course of a scholarly address at Regensburg.
37. The refusal of Pope Benedict to continue to apologize, and his apparent refusal to completely humiliate himself, before Muslims demanding such humiliation.
38. The Israeli “occupation” of Sinai, Gaza, and the West Bank, that is, of Judea and Samaria, after the Six-Day War.
39. The Israeli “occupation” of Gaza and the West Bank, that is, Judea and Samaria, after the Camp David Accords.
40. The Israeli “occupation” of the West Bank, that is, Judea and Samaria, after the full withdrawal from Gaza.
41. The Israeli “occupation” of the sacred Arab and Muslim soil on which the only Jewish state was created in 1948.
42. The presence of Jews in the Middle East.
43. The presence of Jews, un-cowed, anywhere in the world. ..”.
Note – **anywhere in the *world***, not just in Israel. (dda)
…
“86. The continued existence of Jews.
87. The continued existence of Christians.
88. The continued existence of Hindus.
89. The continued existence of Sikhs.
90. The continued existence of Buddhists.
91. The continued existence of followers of Confucius [and of the Tao, and of Shinto].
92. The continued existence of agnostics.
93. The continued existence of atheists.
94. Everything.
95. Nothing.”
“…It took very little time to compose this list. It would not take much longer to add another hundred, two hundred, three hundred items to the list of things that “fuel Muslim extremism.””
And here’s someone else, on the subject of Muslim “grievances” (so often either exaggerated or else fabricated altogether).
http://sultanknish.blogspot.com/2011/11/dangers-of-legitimizing-islamic.html
Sunday, November 13, 2011
The Dangers of Legitimizing Muslim Grievances
gravenimage says
More from Muslim apologist Chand:
The Muslim/Jihadi threat was never from Jerusalem really. It was under Israel anyways. The threat is on unarmed civilians all over the world from cowardly Jihadi groups who could be anywhere, far from Jerusalem, Mecca or Medina. How is it challenging that threat? How does this help against terrorism?
…………………………….
Acquiescing to Muslim demands that any part of the civilized world be treated as a No Go Zone only emboldens Muslims.
Challenging this makes us stronger.
More:
So provide more reasons for Muslim anger and resentment as a means to combat it? Trump has no problem. He travels in bullet proof vehicles, surrounded by armed commandos. The problem is for the person on the street. This is just a vain move, gaining nothing real and is gonna fuel Jihad further.
…………………………….
Ah, yes–we’ve heard this before–that if only we give into every Muslim demand that maybe they will stop attacking us.
We can see how this dhimmitude and appeasement is working out…
Daniel Triplett says
I’ve commanded US Military warplanes over the entire state of Israel, including the West Bank.
The West Bank consumes the finest parts of Israel, similar in topography to the Northern California Bay Area of the US.
Not only is this the finest territory of the Israeli sovereignty, it would be totally indefensible if Israel surrenders it to the Ummah.
We all know the issue is not about land, it’s about ideology.
Surrender of land won’t solve the problem. Surrender of land will only beget more violence.
The Islamic ideology must be criminalized Worldwide. This is the only long-term solution.
dumbledoresarmy says
Don’t say ‘the west bank’. Say – Judea and Samaria. Or, “The Mountains of Israel”. That is what the Prophet Ezekiel called that high country, the roof and heartland of Israel, centuries upon centuries before ever Islam was invented.
Military. high. ground. That’s what it is (and so is Mount Zion – and so is the Golan Heights, which also *must* remain sovereign Jewish Israeli territory).
Israel CANNOT let the ummah control the military high ground. it would be a launching pad for Jihad, ten times, 100 times worse than Gaza already is.
Daniel Triplett says
Agreed, and you are correct. Judea is strategic military high ground, and must never be surrendered.
Judea, Samaria, or “The Mountains of Israel” are much better and more legitimate identifiers. Thanks.
gravenimage says
Thank you, Daniel and DDA.
Janakiraman Rajalakshmi says
God Bless Donald Trump for his courage . At last America has got a no nonsense President.
Jerusalem has always belonged to Jews.
It was one muslim from Turkey who invaded Jerusalem who raised a structure over Jews’ Synagogue which is called a mosque today. Similar to what another muslim called babur from Turkey did to Hindus in India.
Unlike pusillanimous India Trump has refused to genuflect before muslims. This is the wisest move.
Apropos their violent reaction , it is nothing new. Muslims and violence are inseparable.
dumbledoresarmy says
Janakiraman – I hope you are writing, or tweeting, or emailing President Trump to express your support for what he has done.
And copy to your own PM Modi and encourage him to follow suit and recognise Jerusalem – Jerusalem, period, no nonsense about ‘east’ or ‘west’, the part that matters spiritually and historically to Jews is, in fact, in the east, which is why it is the part that the greedy violent mohammedans desire – and move *India*’s embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, too. No forewarning, no apologies, no explanations, just… DO IT.
Wouldn’t it be wonderful if, on the first day of Hanukkah – the eight-day feast that remembers a courageous Jewish war of liberation in the past, and the rededication of their temple after it had been defiled by enemies who tried to wipe them out – the American and Indian embassies were open side by side on the same street in Jerusalem: with heavily-armed US marines marching resolutely up and down in front of the US embassy, ready to *flatten* any mohammedan who *dared* try anything on; and armed Gurkhas and Sikhs marching up and down in front of the Indian embassy?
Janakiraman Rajalakshmi says
Thank you for your comments.
Like many Hindus I also prayed for Trump’s victory during elections. I do not have a twitter account.
Nevertheless I am extremely gratified to find Trump has been fulfilling all promises he made while campaigning.
India is too cowardly. At least has not joined the other countries in censuring Trump. That is one mighty courageous step for dhimmis of India. India has got addicted to heavy appeasement of muslims. And the latter have got used to being unduly pampered.
America should ally with China to vanquish muslim terrorism. India lacks the gumption to do so.
gravenimage says
I pray for India, as well.
Polymath Level8 says
This may or may not be a good move. It’s a challenge Jihadism. But it could backfire with more violence. And we will pay a huge price for another symbolic gesture used to distract the republican voting base. It’s another bait and switch, which the base continue to fall for. The price is the real republican agenda, the return of supply side economics. It’s only a matter of time before it ruins the economy. We can only hope that the base wake up in time, which, given their credulity, is not too likely.
gravenimage says
Why do you consider standing up against Jihad to be “bait and switch”?
dumbledoresarmy says
Something to bear in mind, to throw at any Useful Idiots of one’s acquaintance who may wring their hands about the ‘peace process’.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali, some years ago, was in Israel. She told them flat-out – “Even if you (Jews) give them (Muslims) Jerusalem, **there will be no peace**”. She explained exactly why the ‘peace process’ was a deadly waste of time, money and energy.
As described here, by one who heard her.
http://israelisoldiersmother.blogspot.com.au/2012/06/one-womans-voice-and-story.html
“…The night before, Henry Kissinger, Shimon Peres and Tony Blair all spoke about peace as if tomorrow it will come…if only we want it badly enough.
“Quietly, Ayaan spoke and without ever mentioning their names, she made these men sound like naive fools.
“She never said it, but it was there.
‘You cannot make peace with a society that does not want it; you cannot compromise with a people who refuse to accept that you even exist.’
‘Dennis Ross suggested one of the steps that the Palestinians must take is to simply put Israel on their maps – even this, they will never do because this is about compromise and, according to Ayaan, an impossibility.
‘These are her words, her experiences….
‘There are three things that characterize Ayaan’s Muslim upbringing and the world that she knew.
‘It is amazing that days later, I do not even have to consult my notes to remember. Such was the power of her words and the honesty of her opinion. These are:
‘1/ Absolute authority – of her father, of her Imam, of her teacher, of her government. Absolute. No opportunity to question, no right to question. You do what they say, always. …
‘2/ No compromise – never. To compromise is to lose face; to be a loser. To be the weak one.
‘The Palestinians (that is: the Muslims – dda) will never compromise was her message.
‘At one point, as someone on the panel was suggesting ways towards peace, Ayaan said something.
‘I’m sure I heard it and perhaps can find it on a video somewhere to confirm.
‘I believe she said, “Even if you give them Jerusalem,” and then she repeated it, “even if you give them Jerusalem, there will be no peace.” No compromise…”….
“I have little doubt that most of the male presenters lack the experience, the bravery and the boldness of this one woman.
“They spoke of maps that lead nowhere, compromises that will bring nothing. They suggested, cajoled. insisted, opinionated. They want to push Israel because perhaps deep down they understand that they cannot push the Arabs (sic: Muslims – dda) – no compromise.
“It was the truth of Ayaan that I wish they had heard – even if you cut out all that we are, even if you give it all, even we listen to your foolishness, even if we give up Jerusalem, they will not let us live here in peace…”.
(Muslims do not, of course, intend to let any unsubdued kuffar live in peace, permanently, anywhere in the whole wide world – dda).
And a bit more, from away back in the (now inaccessible) depths of the jihadwatch archives, from 2009.
This was the thread (but you wont’ find any comments attached to it, today; they didn’t ‘roll over’ to a new platform).
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2009/01/hitler-didnt-do-a-good-job.html
But I copied the comment.
Somebody called ‘ethoman’ replied to a commenter named ‘skeptic over all’, who seemed to think the Muslim jihad against Israel was resolvable by ‘dialogue’.
Here’s part of his reply (with the details of when he posted it).
ethoman | January 6, 2009 1:36 PM
@SkepticOverAll,
“How about a decent dialogue, and some thinking?”
REPLY..
“I think you will find if you dig deep enough that among the 4 major schools of Islamic thought Islamic Jurisprudence is unanimous in its end game strategy in regards to the self governance of non-Muslims…
I don’t see how “dialogue” with enemies whom hold this belief system to be revelation from God will do you any good. At best you can get a peace treaty. Khadduri’s book, War and Peace in the Law of Islam:
“If a catastrophe had befallen the Muslims, (they) might come to terms with the enemy…provided that the Muslims should resume the Jihad after the expiration of the treaty…treaties must be of temporary duration, for in Muslim legal theory the normal relations between Muslim and non-Muslim territories are not peaceful, but warlike…If the (leader) entered a treaty which he was incapable of fulfilling, the treaty was regarded as void…the Prophet Muhammad has set the classic example by concluding a (628 A.D.) treaty with the Makkans, known as the Hudayabiya Treaty (whereby) a peace treaty with the enemy is a valid instrument if it serves Muslim interests…the Prophet and his successors always reserved their right to repudiate any treaty or arrangement which they considered as harmful…Muslim authorities might come to terms with (the enemy), provided it was only for a temporary period…a temporary peace with the enemy is not inconsistent with Islam’s interests….”.
‘Skeptic please explain to all of us Kuffar here just where the wiggle room is in that body of knowledge to justify our existence as free people in the long term anywhere on the globe.
‘I think the more you learn the more you will come to realize Israel is at war with Muslims (or, more correctly, the Muslims are waging jihad upon the Jews of Israel – dda) and just what that means beyond the surface.
‘I remember at the beginning of the current Iraqi affair, a Hindu said to me, “You are at war with Muslims now, you will not be able to simply go home like you did in Vietnam.” You will come to learn that there are only two outcomes in war with Muslims. Either they die, or you die.”
‘I was completely shocked by that statement, floored it was a cathartic moment. I was just like you before I heard that.
‘We in the west can learn a lot about what is in store for the us from Hindus, you should check for yourself to see what they have to say.
‘Anyways it was that statement, which sent me on my journey to study Islam many years ago.
‘**There is no end for Jews in Israel other than death, or victory** (my emphasis – dda)
‘Hamas is at the extreme end of what is considered aggressive from a faith whose moderate contemporary orthodoxy is extreme in regards to the mandate for war against non-Muslim states.
‘What positive outcome dialoged could get you with Hamas… eludes me.”
LeftisruiningCanada says
DDA, thanks for the that. I’ve also been force to adopt the same position.
And, Ayaan hirsi ali is a great lady. She speaks quietly but with immense clarity and authority.
gravenimage says
+1
dumbledoresarmy says
Here is an article that every one of President Trump’s staffers should be sent.
And every Republican congressperson and senator.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2008/06/fitzgerald-waiting-for-hudaibiyya.html
Fitzgerald: Waiting for Hudaibiyya
And: in a comment written two years prior to that, in 2006 Hugh put the whole thing in a nutshell. He showed, in two lapidary paragraphs, exactly why the so-called ‘middle east peace process’ is a snare and a delusion. I will quote it here, broken up into its component sentences; read it slowly, and take it in (I especiallly commend it to those who came ‘on board’ here only much later than 2006, and would not therefore have encountered it – or many other similar postings by Hugh).
“Neither Israel itself, nor many in the outside world, seem willing to comprehend that there is no solution, one-state or two-state or n-state, to the Jihad.
“There is only the matter of remaining overwhelmingly — and perceptibly — more powerful, capable of wreaking great damage on those who would attack. (I.e. – peace through superior firepower – dda).
“No treaty with Infidel states, and Israel is such a state, can conceivably be permanently honored by a Muslim signatory. (President Trump needs to *get* this, and rejig all American foreign policy accordingly. And India, and Philippines, and Thailand, need to understand it, too, because then they will know not to waste time ‘peace processing’ with the various mohammedan non-state entities and state actors – and infinitely-duplicitous Mohammedan next-door *neighbours* – dda).
“Pacta sunt servanda is a Western idea.
“In the Muslim world, treaties – if made with Infidels – are not to be obeyed, but to be violated, as soon as the Muslim side feels itself strong enough to press its advantage.
“The model for all time — see Majid Khadduri, ‘War and Peace in the Law of Islam’ (and Raymond Ibrahim’s series of classic essays on the role of deception in Islam, beginning with an article published in Jane’s Islamic Affairs Analyst, would be a useful adjunct – dda) — is Muhammad’s Treaty with the Meccans in 628 A.D, the Treaty of Hudaybiyya.” – Hugh Fitzgerald, writing on Robert Spencer’s jihadwatch website, 15.8.2006
duh swami says
Trump fought Allah and Trump won…It’s been a long time since a kuffar did that…
hammar says
Can you imagine countries that have no democracy are crying about another who does?
Wow….no one seems to bring up these important issues when commenting openly?
Where does it say that islam gets to have a say what goes on anywhere in the world? These
people are pathetic. God Bless President Trump.
dumbledoresarmy says
You wrote – “Where does it say that islam gets to have a say what goes on anywhere in the world?”
In their Koran they are told that they are “the best of people, commanding right and forbidding wrong”. (Except that their definitions of ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ are defined by whatever Mohammed did or didn’t do… so that, for example, slavery and bedding a nine-year-old girl as ‘wife’ are just fine, whilst representational art, most music both vocal and instrumental, and pet dogs, are criminalised…). Thus mohammedans feel entitled to lay down the law – *their* islamic law, the sharia – to *everyone* on earth. They are the rulers. They are entitled to trample on everybody else, take everybody else’s stuff (because, so they believe, it rightfully belongs to *them*, they who are the ‘slaves of allah’ and are therefore the very best people, the people entitled to *rule*.’
Megalomania and malignant narcissism… taught by their founding texts.
FYI says
“At that time I will restore the prosperity of Judah and Jerusalem.
I will gather all the nations and bring them to the valley of Judgement.
There I will Judge them for all they have done to My people.
They have scattered the Israelites in foreign countries
and divided up Israel MY land”
Joel 3 v 1-2
MY people,MY Land:isn’t it obvious that Israel exists by full permission of God?
And was it not restored in 1948,a fulfilled promise?
It is also clear that God will punish the enemies of Israel and those who have persecuted the Jews.
“The Lord roars from Mount Zion
His voice thunders FROM JERUSLAEM.
Earth and sky will tremble..
but He will defend His people”
Joel 3 v 16
This is another promise that will be fulfilled.The survival of Israel is guaranteed.
As for those who wish to destroy Israel..
“Egypt will become a desert,
and Edom a ruined waste.
because they attacked the land of Judah
and killed innocent people.
I will avenge those who were killed.
I will not spare the guilty.
But Judah and Jerusalem will be inhabited forever
and I the Lord,will live on Mount Zion”
Joel 3 v 19-21
The number of times Jerusalem is mentioned..
In the Bible(KJV)=767
{626 in the OT,141 in the NT}
The number of times Jerusalem is mentioned..
In the koran=0
It is obvious that Jerusalem and the role of the Jews is important to the actual Biblical(True)God.
Yet it is not important enough for allah(=the islamic/koranic misrepresentation of the Original revelation of God}….to refer to it in his “perfect” koran.
Besides,as we know allah doesn’t like the Jews and he completely fails to understand the role given to them by God or the fact that Israel exists by full permission of God.
Jerusalem is rightly the capital of Israel.It always was and will be.
Infidel says
WHAT A MAN!! I’VE BEEN HIS FAN FOR LONG… Whatever people say .. he has a right heart inside him.. at least he does not betray his own..
UNCLE VLADDI says
I wouldn’t be so sure – Trump hedged his bets with lots of weasel-words; see here for proof:
http://islamexposed.blogspot.ca/2017/12/presidential-proclamationjerusalem-and.html