G-d in Heaven! What in the world are they doing to their children??? Our children get murdered and their parents set up summer camps (real ones!) for children who lost a parent or dialogue groups between Jews and Arabs. What kind of awful people are they? Where are the parents who would speak out against this child abuse???

How unfortunate, the young victims of Religious Exclusivism. Just like Amy Hermanson.

Who is Amy Hermanson?

I have never paid attention to Islam or Muslim until 9/11 when I started
Hearing a lot about it from media but most of my questions are unanswered
Why they hate us?
Please anyone answer this question, but not with they hate us
Because we are free nations (West) and they hate freedom or they want to convert us
To Islam that’s for the kids one years old only.
I heard a lot off bad thing about this religion, but why these called Muslims still practice
That bad and all what you name it in this web, I really in deep frustration when
I took that to confirm it in real world with Muslims in my college and at work I just
Get more confused when I saw the opposite of what have said about them, specially
Some girl in my college with head scarf after my interaction with them I’m 100% sure
It’s their choice and proud of it.
One more thing why young Muslims in the West are practicing this bad religion and I never heard any converted to Christianity or other religion.
For these how said we have to close down Mosques. Do you know that Muslims
Don’t need a priest or mosques to pray, they can pray 5 times a day anywhere
You name it from room to car any place except toilet.

I hope you guys get real cause this danger will not stop by most of what
I read in this web.

Dear dennis
There are thousands converting from islam to christianity worldwide. I will direct you to one testimony specifically, as contained in it are a lot of answers to your questions.As you will see the guy was a former radical cleric and lecturer in islamic history at Al-azhar university in Cairo, Egypt.He knows, if anybody what is really behind Islam.
with regards to the headscarf being a choice, it is not, it is an obligation: Sura33:59;
"O prophet,tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies (i.e. screen themselves complerely except the eyes or one eye to see the way)"
The testimony can be found at:
www.arabicbible.com/testimonies/gabriel.htm
Its a pretty long story but worth reading.
With regards,
kc

Dear KC,
When I said it’s their choice I meant they chose to wear that not forced on them by shik,,,,
Mulla or relative as many thought. they I live far away independently from any influence.
she said that hijab give her total control of her body and liberate her from male scrutiny
and will not allow anyone to use her as sex symbol for advertisement.

Dennis:

Those people who leave Islam are very brave. The penalty for apostasy (rejecting Islam) is death. It is required that any Muslim who has the opportunity to do so must kill an apostate. Such killings occur not only in Muslim countries, but in the West as well. There is a lot of information about the reality of Islam on the net. Here are two good sources:

www.apostatesofislam.com
www.faithfreedom.org

These are maintained by people who have left Islam. They know the truth.

Dennis:

With respect to hijab: In Saudi Arabia and Iran, women who are unveiled are beaten by the religious police. In France, they are beaten and often subjected to gang rapes by groups of Muslim youths. If a Muslim woman is raped, her own family must kill her to regain their honor. Such "honor killings" are commonplace in the West as well as in Muslim countries. (Honor killings also result if a Muslim woman dates a non-Muslim male, leaves the house without a male relative accompanying her, and even if, as is quite common, she is raped by her own brothers.)

It is not true that those who leave Islam are immediately killed. They must be offered a chance to repent their apostasy and truly embrace Islam. Only if they refuse, or if their repentence is not sincere, do they suffer the punishment prescribed by Allah for their transgressions.

Dear dennis
thanks for your reply, I don't want the focus of our conversation however to be the veil issue, I want you to read mark gabriels testimony - it will answer a lot of your questions from someone whos "been there" Also check out the sites abdul has cited, they also would be useful in your quest to discover the truth
Noone (above) I would deem to be a true muslim, he/she is simply quoting muhammeds instructions from the Qur'an,sura 4:89.
This is in stark contrast with the words of Jesus in Mt10:14 where He says we (believers) are to simply "shake the dust off our feet" regarding those who refuse His words.
The contrast is indeed stark, dennis. A contrast of light and darkness as I hope you will begin to realise.
kind regards,
kc

Chaya eiten-
Palestinean children are subjected to constant curfues, it is often when they are forced to leave there home as troops turn it inside out. They see a wall being built, cutting them of from their families/land. The see houses demolished, and are broughtup with the never ending sound of shells and bullets. Are you surprised that death no longer haunts them, rather the opposite? It is the work of Israeli oppression.
Dennis-
As to why they hate you, it is pointless having a westener point that out to you. I personally have lived in the muslim world most of my life, particularly countries where the hijakers came from, i.e. Saudi Arabia. There are many reasons, for the people in Saudi the main being the formerly stationed troops in Saudi, which was against the demand of Our prophet Muhammed (pbuh) at his death bed, when he warned against forign armies being stationed in the arabian peninsula. Secondly it is the support, and oppression of muslim countries, By the USA, through our didctators. Americas interests clash with ours. America has actively supported arab dictators, such as the Saudi Royal family, the Egyptian president, the jordanian king, the shah of iran, the general of pakistan. America also supports other leaders that harm us, such as sharon (massacured 1700 palestiean regugess in one town, regardless age and sex, town is called sabra wa shatila) And Indians (kashmir has a muslim population which the indian goverment oppresses to maintain control of this strategic position). Also the flow of arms and money to Israel, which inturn results to what i spoke of earlier. Palestine has one of the highest depression rates in the world. 80% are unemployed, students cannot persue an education. They have been like that for 35 years, only to become worse now after sharons visit to our 3rd most important site, the dome of the rock in jerusalem, which started the conflict that left the same number of dead palestineans dead as those that died in sept11. Then there is the pressure where American leaders use their political dominance to force, conform us, to western standards, which we see as amoral. These and the constant attacks on islam (i.e. the rubbish im about to clarify) leaves a bitter feeling towards the west. There is simple steps to creating a lasting friendship. For one the complete cut of of relations with Muslim dictators, 2 the rocognizing of our culture and way of life, 3 recognizing the opressive meathods of Israel, and either promoting peace unbiasdly, or leaving it to other 3rd parties with no alliances with israel, i.e. Britain, russia. I think that would make people very optimistic about relations with the USA. Some people try to convince others in the west that muslims will hate America no matter what, by reffering to scriptures taken out of context. I tell you this personally, and on a broader comuntiy level, there is nothing that would make me more eager for a lasting friendship with the USA than the 3 simple things above. They are simple, but theres probably a few billions at stake, so the greedy capitalists wont compramise, others are just arrogant thinking it wont all end, that history wont repeat itself, you judge.
Abdul- How many muslims eager to leave islam have you seen. You argue by pointing out the penalty, not what lies within the heart of the muslim. Dennis, ask your friends, anyone of them, if there convinced about islam, if they doubt it, will they ever leave. Its pathetic to think people worry about the backlash from other muslims. I could, right now declare i am no longer muslim. But i do not wish to do so. I am sick with the amoral calues of the west, the degrading of women to sex symbols, forced to bow down to mans lust. Im sick of the human trafficking, the sale of a womens virginity for what amounts to the price of a sandwich. But people here ignore an important fact, just like some women in the west believe its ok, others in islam believe the covering of hair is ok, no! not just ok, but somthing they very strongly agree with. Because people within the west lost any sence of dignity, should we loose ours for the wests sake? No, should we promote our values, yes! Just like people fear jihad comes into control of their society ( a rather rediculous fear) we too do our best to repel westen values controlling us.
Dennis, if you want to understand the way a muslim thinks, then you may educate yourself with the same thing i educate myself.
www.islamonline.net is rather good. You may speek with scholars, and pretend your muslim if you fear hypocricy. Im sure either way youll get the same answers.
Abdul, in saudi arabia, where i lived, you do not get beaten. For one i can say this with absolute confidence, because my nieghbor never has, and probably never will cover her hair. The westeners do not either, more than that they live in compounds isolated from the saudi communities, where they can indulge in every amoral western aspect they wish. Alchol is on sale there too. They have parties, mixed pools, you name it. That is what sharia recognizes, non muslim communities do not have to abide by our rules, exept when they enter our communities. Further more, islam requires muslim women to wear the viel on thier own free will. At the prophets time the non muslims did not cover their hair, Saudi and iran are not islamic societies (iran is shia which has some big differences with sunni, their leaders make the laws) nor is there one islamic state today. Saudi is a monarch, which is forbidden under islam. The religios police, known as the hayaa are a propaganda instrument by the government which is trying to show people that it has no intention of conforming to western standards, it curbs rebellion, though with my personal experience, and al lot that i hear, i can tell you they are no religious force. There effectively made up of brutal prison graduates, who have no stain of islamic values on them. They shout their way through malls, they insult whom they please, they are like saddams secret police. They are also involved in political prisoner tortures, as one personal family friend experienced.
Honour killings is a cultural aspect. It is somthing i greatly despise and renounce. It is practiced because of cultural issues. It usually happens in pakistan, jordan. An islamic court recently denounced a jordanian secular court for giving a man who stabbed his sister 15 times because she was pregnant, and claimed that sharia would have this same man either killed, or a slightly less sever punishment of cutting the hand off ( and impisonment for a longer term) I am firmly behind the islamic courts case, and the secular court judges deserve themselves to be imprisioned.
Nathan, there are only three or so countries that inforce the veil. Saudi, iran, and nigeria . There are 57 muslim countries, please remember that. There is no proof that muslim youth gang rape girls who do not wear the viel in france, further more, people who gang rape are muslim?! Dosnt the gang rape tell you anything about their lack of an religious aspect?
Kc as for the verse 4:89 which is translated as:-
They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-
It does not refer to either the non muslims in gereal, or the pagans of mekka. Every surah had come in its time, and deal with specific issue. You cannot quote a bit from a conversation, and use it as proof against the people in that conversation, the same goes for the quraan. I explained this before, but ill do so again. The quraan was tailored, every surah (chapter) came to deal with a specific issue, if you randomly quote verses then you automatically get a radical solution to a simple situation. In order to disproove the use of that verse here i will first explain the purpose of this chapter of the quraan (surat al nisaa) then i will explain the verse.
The surah (chapter) was meant to deal with the social problems imediatly after the battle of UHUD(where 3000 meccans made its way to mekka, a smaller defending force of 1000 muslims and medinites went to put a halt to the meccan force. They won the battle but suffered heavily (as opposed to badr where they were ounumbered more than 3 to one, and lost a very small number, 8)
The surah consisits of 2 parts, the first it the dealing with women orphans inheritance marriage and family rights after battle (were a large number of men are dead) and the 2nd part deals with recalcitrants in the larger family, the community at madinah, viz.. hypocrites and their accomplices.
The ayah (verse) 89 which i quoted was in reference to the hypocrites whom betrayed the prophet, even though a treaty existed between them, and that betrayal resulted in a heavy loss on the muslim side. In modern day war that would mean war with whomever berayed, if it was on an individual basis, it is the death penalty (even in The USA). Here is the full explanation
When the desertion of the hypocrites at uhu caused a disaster to the muslim cause, there was great feeling among the muslims at madinah against them. One party wanted to put them to the sword, another to leave them alone. The actual policy persured avoided both extremes, was determined by these verses. It was clear that they were a danger to the muslim community if they were admitted into its councels, and in any case they were a source of demoralisation. But while caution was used, no extreme measures where taken against them. On the contrary, they were given a chance of making good. If they made a sacrifice for the cause ("flee from what is forbidden" see nect verse), their conduct purged the previous cowardice, and their sincerity entitled them to be taken back. But if they deserted the muslim community again, they were treated as enemies, with the additional penalty of desertion which is enforced by all nations at war. Even so , a humane exception is made in the two cases specified.
The next verse
Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then Allah Hath opened no way for you (to war against them).
That is not humane enough for you?
Regards
Ahmad

To Ahmad:
I`m in a hurry,and i don`t have much time to answer to your lenghty post.
So i will be very brief:BS!

Dennis:

I hope that you can see Ahmad's screed for what it is. In summary, the United States is the source of all evil and is to blame for every injustice in the world. Islam is peaceful and pure; any barbaric practices engaged in by Muslims are just cultural and are against Islam.

Almost everything that Ahmad says is a lie. I simply don't have time or space to refute it all. I'll just mention one incident - in Saudi Arabia, there was recently a fire at a girls school. When the students tried to flee, the religous police beat them and forced them back into the burning building because they weren't properly dressed (only the face and hands can be exposed). Many were burned to death.

Please look at the links I gave you. You will soon see what is the truth and what are lies.

All these problems because of a crazy murderer child molester who died centuries ago.

Dear Ahmed,
I have responded to your reply regarding aisha in the article "muslim missionaries recruiting africans..."
I will respond to the rest later..I have work to go to!
regards, kc

Abdul, no certainly i recognise the evil within my own society, but i do somthing about it. I protest suicide bombing, i protest the killing of innocents, but then i also protest the greater injustice of opression. I also protest the idea of it steming from islam, but then again if someone wishes to interpret the quraan/bible/torah to be violent, he will, and if otherwise, he will. If you look at my attitude, i very clearly exemp any American from blame, because they neither controll their armies, nor influence the forign policies which oppress, i am after the greedy corporations and officials within the government, i am not at war with a people (like many here ar at war with muslims) rather with an opressing system, and i merely ask that it stop doing that it does.
Proud infedel-
No, the problem stems from nationalism, on both sides. Muhammed (pbuh) reformed the society of arabia, he made people modest, sencible, kind. I suggest travelling to the middle east, then you will understand what i speak of. People on a personal basis are not anti american or western, theyll treat you as their own. Just experience it for yourself.
Kc- i too have very little time, i made the mistake of reply to everything, and now im making some of the last posts i will make here till the summer vacation, inshallah (god willing)
Regards
Ahmad

ahmed: "People on a personal basis are not anti american or western, theyll treat you as their own. Just experience it for yourself."

I wonder how the muslims of saudi arabia would treat Jews. Oh that's right - No Joo's allowed!

You're full of it.

Ahmad,

What a hagiographic view of Saudi Arabia. Let me tell you what I have seen.

I am living in one of those "western" (ex-pat is more accurate, we have quite a few Japanese here) compounds you are talking about in Al Khobar. I have also worked in Jeddah and Riyadh.

I get along well with my Saudi coworkers and I really like some of them. But I will NOT discuss religion. In the U.S., I can discuss Islam and Christianity - good and bad: The Crusades (a trade war cloaked in religion - really, follow the money), the medieval papacy, the Inquistions.
Over here, if I say anything that anyone could interpret as disrepect toward Islam, I'd be deported within 48 hours. I directly know someone that happened to. "Disrepect toward Islam" is the one charge an ex-pat CANNOT defend against.

In Riyadh, during Ramadam, I've seen a mutawa (that's religious police) confront an obviously western woman because her hair wasn't covered.

Jeddah is five years away from literally drowning in it's own sewage. Only about 30% of the homes are hooked up to public sanitation and running. water. And most new housing areas are still being built without access to public sanitation.

Highway accidents and death rates are some of the highest in the world. Most Saudis drive as if they have the brains of a monkey.

Saudis are worse than liberal Democrats. Intentions, as opposed to actions, are very important. "I intented to get this task done, but Inshallah." "I will get to work on time tomorrow, Inshallah."

Alcohol can be bought in the Kingdom, but it's underground. So can drugs, but that's DEEP underground. The only people I've seen driving drunk are the Saudis.

The most watched western TV show here is probably "Baywatch". They can't belive that the series died after 3 years over 10 years ago (is that about right? I don't watch much television) because of lack of interest (ratings) in the US. It's being made primarily for the international audience.

No one will take a personal check here. Saudis write too many bad checks. A bank will if it's guaranteed by a corporate account.

I will agree that a lot of behavior is based on culture and custom, but that's also an excuse. Nothing changes.

As far as being a scientific religion, please. If it were truly scientic, marriage between cousins wouldn't be permitted. They have a small, shallow gene pool here, and the Saudis are pissing in it. If Islam was scientific, why do husbands STILL believe that it's their wives' fault for not producing male children. If Islam is so scientic, why the common belief in djinn, sorcery, and black magic. Earlier this year, Arab News reported that a man was convicted of sorcery. "Black magic" is practically a legal defense for adultery. "She used black magic on me, and I was helpless to resist."

Rape - Muslim gang rape in Australia.
Pakistan - a village council sentenced a teenaged Muslim girl to a gang rape - apparently with the approval of the local mullah.

So the obvious question is why am I still here? I like my job. It pays well. I like my coworkers. But I'm not blind.

jay

Palestinean children are subjected to constant curfues, it is often when they are forced to leave there home as troops turn it inside out. They see a wall being built, cutting them of from their families/land. The see houses demolished, and are broughtup with the never ending sound of shells and bullets. Are you surprised that death no longer haunts them, rather the opposite? It is the work of Israeli oppression.
-----------------------------
Ahmed: Those curfews and checkpoints are in place because we never know when a lunatic suicide bomber will be unleashed in our cities!! Concerning house demolitions, many parents have come forth and told soldiers about their son wanting to become a suicide bomber in order that their home won't be demolished. If there weren't these attacks there would be no reason for the checkpoints and curfews! Matter of fact, up to three years ago they were able to enter Israeli cities freely in order to work. Israeli citizens went to their cities to go shopping. Their economic situation was very good that is until Yasir Arafat started the intifada. Are you aware that there are many, many palestinians who want nothing more than for Israel to come back in so they can start to live normal lives again? Armed gangs roam the streets making life hell for these people! Arafat took all the money meant for the people and put it into his own private account and sent it to Suha so she can live the high life in Paris! Their media, schools and mosques teach nothing but hate! We, on the other hand, continue to hope for peace and teach our children this. Arafat should be brought to The Hague Court to stand trial for crimes against humanity! And for child abuse!!