Turkey will not be secular for much longer. Ataturk dragged them out of the dark ages, but Islamic ideology has caught on there now, and it will continue growing. Turkey will be the first Islamic EU member.

Giscard d'Estaing, whatever his many faults, has resolutely insisted that Turkey must never become a member of the EU. Those secular Turks who have been counting on their own secularism to secure admission to the EU, should not blame the Europeans. They should blame the picture of this and other outrages. It is not Turkey which Europe can accept, but only Kemalist Turkey. Kemalism, in perpetuity. And it looks as though, just as the PLO helped bring Khomeini to Iran, and Arab Muslims helped poison the Chechen cause (so that, unfortunately, whatever the sins of the Russian forces, no non-Muslim can any longer support the Chechens, whose nationalism has morphed into something more sinister), the behavior of non-Turkish Muslims, along with Erdogan's unforgettable and telling statement
-- that he now claims to have disavowed -- to wit, "the minarets are our bayonets, the domes our helmets, the mosques our barracks.

The army, and the secularists who do not want Turkey to be dragged back into the dark ages of the Arabs or of Khomeini, should realize that even if Richard Perle introduced Erdogan last month to a Washington audience, even if highly-placed Pentagon officials seemed once to be enamoured of Turkey, even if Turkey remains part of NATO (and Turkish troops in the Korean War managed to convert a number of Koreans to Islam)this does not guarantee future American benevolence. That benevolence is extended, it has to be repeated, not to something called Turkey, but to Kemalist Turkey. And even Bernard Lewis, so loyal to Kemalism that he allows himself to engage in some nunc pro tunc backdating of its virtues, cannot stave off forever closer scholarly inspection either of Ottoman behavior toward non-Muslim minorities (cf. Bryonis, Vankh Dadrian, Bat Ye'or) nor a less forgiving attitude toward the Islamist Party now hellbent, whatever its soothing rhetoric, on returning Turkey fully to the Muslim fold -- a decision which will prove a disaster for those in Turkey who have, over the past 80 years, become Western men, Muslim only in the most perfunctory way.

If the beleaguered secularists in Turkey wish to know whom to blame for their future failure to join Europe, they should look at the picture posted above, and that grimacing, menacing crowd -- really, all of these Muslim mobs, whether in Gaza, Karachi, or Najistan, evoke, under Western eyes, the participants in the auto-da-fe in Hitler's Berlin, or the spittle-mouthed cheering crowd at a lynching somewhere in the American south.

No, these are not the educated, courtly, amusing Turks we have all met outside of Turkey, or at the Archeological Museum, or somewhere. But perhaps there are more of the Believers than of the non-Believers. And this mob does not consist of those who would ever frequent the bookstores and cafes along Istiqlal Caddesi, which is what most Westerners think of when they think of Turkey, does it?

The comment made is correct, turkey will and is headed for the islamic state that it wants to be. It will fall in behind the jew and christian hate and killing preached by islam to all muslims. There is and never will be an animal called a moderate muslim state.

And this a member of our NATO.

So when does America, who praticaly invented peacefull public demonstrations begin taking to the streets and shout slogans and burn flags against countries like, Turkey, Iran, Egypt, India, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Pakistan, breath breath breathe........Palestine (Oops no county, go figure), sudan, nigeria, lebanon, libya, iraq, etc etc etc....

To Avatar, when the churches, the schools, the government, and courts are filled with muslims preaching their hate religion, islam. Ofcourse it may be to late then!

If that were to happen then they wont be buring flags of their brotherly islamic countries. My point is that this country has not burned flags of these islamic countries countries which speakes volumes about the citiznes of the US. although sometimes I feel we should as an expression of disgust as they do upon us. We can start with the flag of Saudi Arabia....

Don't forget the Iraqi Shiite cleric Moqtada al-Sadr who in today's serman stated the September 11, 2001, terror attacks were "a miracle from God."

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/03/26/iraq.main/index.html

Will someone please remind me why we protected Shiites for 10 damm years. We all know that in that area, whatever Sadr says they all believe...

Murderers.....and arsonists.....pillars of society they are

All the people who post on this site do not seem to realize that we are toast in any scenario. By the time any Western government gets around to banning Muslim immigration it will be too late. Ethnic cleansing then will be our only option and that is a non-option in these times. So then we are left with the Indian solution - a multiplicity of personal religious laws. If we do not ban Muslim immigration soon, we will never be able to preserve our way of life. I fear it is too late already.

..a feel good news item today was the Israeli
inderdiction of Hamas' 'navy' frogmen bent
on murder in Tel Katifa in Gaza..both killed..doh!!

The whole muslim world is against us,the ones from ,muslim countries as well as the ones that live in western countries.
And the cause of their hatred can be sumarized in one single word:Islam.
The quran is an evil book of hatred,lies and murder.
It should be banned in all western countries.
As long as muslims read the quran ,they will continue to hate us.
Let them hate us,as much as they want,but they should do it in their countries ,not here.
As long as they stay there,they can bark as loud as they want and we should make sure they cannot gain entry to our country.

Is this the same Iran from which people call for America to come and help them be free from the bondage and tyranny of Islam?

It's very simple. The West has, for too long, been far far too tolerant of Islam's refusal to provide for the existence of a non-Islamic state on formerly Muslim-controlled lands. Israel's existence is both justified and a fact, and the acceptence of the Jewish State is the ultimate test for any Muslim. The reaction to the entirely justified killing of Yassin shows that too many are not ready to pass this test.

In a way I hope the Turks keep this up and turn public opinion against Turkey joining the EU.

To the best of my knowledge Kemalist Turkey also continued the policy of driving out Christians - there are hardly any left in Turkey now.

I could not go to my Friday prayers because of serving infidel interests but it was about "The importance of Women". Shame the way most of you are hooked up on violence and racism.

Banning Muslim immigration is not really as bad as you think. There needs to be less dialogue, and integration. However, the so called "civilised" super-humans must also be intelligent enough to not interfere and dictate to those they consider to be sub humans; after all we don't have much in common do we?

PS: Nobody wants Turkey to join Europe. Muslims fought hard to capture the land and many from places as far as Tanzania sacrificed their lives to free the land from man made regions. Why should you give it back for free?

I could not go to my Friday prayers because of serving infidel interests..

Oh, did you have to serve the beer and pork chops again? I thought we had assigned that job to Amir! Let me check my secret Zionist agenda, and get back to you...,

I can not say about all the countries who is listed, but as an iranian those guys in iran are just a bunch of armed vigilants (read: loyalists) who are financed by regime to attend in this kindda demonstrations, attacking students with knife. They are payed to do it. That was about iran but of course in arab world the stupidity level is a bit higher and not ALL people attending to those demonstrations are payed.

Kianb;
I had the same thoughts as you regarding the Iranians, My job here in England is working with refugees, and, as such I meet, and have made friends with many Iranians.
All of the ones I have met, without exception, detest Islam because of what its done to them and their country. I asked them about the protests on the streets which we see on our media, and they told me a simular thing, The secret police come to their work/home and tell them they better be on the street demonstrating at a certain time on a certain day. If they refuse they would probably never be seen again. Many here in england are turning to christ, I had the honour of baptising an Iranian lady not so long back.
See these sites for more info.http://www.iranchristians.org/whoarethey2.shtml
http://www.farsinet.com/ici/catalog/scriptures.html
regards, kc.

KC,
I am happy to meet people who really get what is actually happening in iran. Most people think this people are really iranians which is a big misunderstanding. The people in this kindda demonstrations are:
1- The members of Hezbollah (that's right folks! the father of hamas and islamic jihad and the lebanon's hezbollah which all started by mullahs in iran): it means they are armed "civilians" (sorry for wasting this nice word on those monsters). People who walk with their colt on the street and are heavily financed by higher levels of islamic regime. Their life is depending on this tyranny, they have no where to go, just like saddam's loyalists. The same gang that attacks students dormitories and kill iranian journalists in cold blood.
2- Normal People: They are forced to attend in this kind of ceremonies as you mentioned. and the regime do every trick she can to collect as more people as it's possible. like promising free lunch during the demonstrations, or promising to give people free copouns to go and buy stuff from designated stores. you realize that these can attract too many poor people.
3- ignorant arabs: they are recruited from syria,jordan,lebanon,sudan,somalia,yemen etc. which are actually a part of that hezbollah but i wanted to emphesis it again to realize who are actual "supporters" of this tyranny.
But all on all these demonstrations show nothing. remeber the amount of demonstrations saddam kept arranging just some months before he was toppled down. remeber he arranged even an "election" some time before he was toppled down. these people shows nothing, they are the horrible victim of their own ignorance. something human kind should NOT be. When the right time comes, they are all gone. The same happened in iraq and afghanistan. The Terror can resist but it can not escape its ultimate fate: destruction.

kianb,

in your opinon is the secret police better now then the secret police that existed under the shah?

joseph,
as iranians always say, The secret Police of Shah (despite all leftists propaganda through the decades) was even not as big as the little finger of mullahs' secret criminal gang. The Shah seems more like one of those bad guys in teen titans series, comparing with the atrocities the islamic regime is doing now. and to be honest i think we have to get on with it. The Shah is dead, the same will happens with mullahs, iranian youth have no memory of Shah time but they want a basic right of every human kind: to choose whatever they want and to whomever they want.

while i despise the influence our culture (mtv,movies,etc.) have on the world i think that the internet and sat tv will ultimately be the downfall of the govt's in iraq,saudi,etc. because the youth love there britney spears and tom cruise movies....

Thanks for the weblinks KC. I am glad to see that people who have endured so much oppression in their native country (Iran) are walking away from the tyranny - even if it is a silent exodus. This is the problem with radical governments. They establish the "ideal" state and then the people living under it recognize the "ideal" is a picture of hell. These websites have given me hope.

Joseph,
The Ironical side of the story is that if you get arrested in iran for having a video of britney spears or michael jackson, you are sentenced mildly than if they arrest you with a video of Black Sabbath or Pink Floyd or god's forbid with a copy of "1984" movie. The Mullahs knows that the ones who are watching Spears well they do it for fun while Black Sabbath or Pink Floyd fans are looking more politically and philosophically into the situation of the country. You get out of jail very easily if you were arrested for having a mtv video. and a video concert of black sabbath can costs you your life.

kianb,

Just finished reading "Persepolis" by Marjane Satrapi and can't wait for the second volume.
It's a wonderful account of a childhood spent in Iran.

Another enjoyable book, "Honeymoon in Purdah - an Iranian Journey", by Alison Wearing, gives a glimpse into Iran today.

Do you maybe know of any other good books about life in Iran? :-)

zorkmidden,
these 2 books are nice if you didn't hear about them:
Reading Lolita in Tehran by Mrs. Azar Nafisi who was a professor in a tehran university.
Journey from the Land of No : A Girlhood Caught in Revolutionary Iran by Roya Hakakian will be released soon.

Thanks kianb

I've read "Reading Lolita in Tehran", and I'm looking forward to the other one (coming in August). I also like Gina Nahai's books (Moonlight on the Avenue of Faith is one of my all-time favorites). And on the more political scene, "The Last Great Revolution".

Have you seen "The Circle"? Iran has such a rich culture, I love every bit that comes out..

Hood Jihadi, you mean you place making an infidel dollar ie. "serving infidel interests" over your devotion to Allah? Surely you will burn in eternal torment for this sacrelige! You are an infidel!

Wow Zork! you sound too much interested in iranian culture. i'll be happy to help you with any information about iran. if you like to contact me please click on my name and send me an email. There are some other nice books about iran i am aware of but from the amount of interest i am guessing in you, you probably know these too ;):
Funny in Farsi: A Memoir of Growing Up Iranian in America by Firoozeh Dumas. a nice look from the other side of the wall.
Inside Iran: Women's Lives by Jane Howard. The story of the wife of a UN official in iran between 1996 and 2000.
Another Sea, Another Shore: Persian Stories of Migration a very nice short story collection from various iranians.
Wedding Song: Memoirs of an Iranian Jewish Woman by Farideh Goldin. a real piece of work!
and dont forget Enduring Love, Farah Pahlavi's latest book.

As for political books i suggest
Rebels With a Cause: The Failure of the Left in Iran by Maziar Behrooz which gives a very nice overview of how the leftists sent iran from a gap to a grave.
Defying the Iranian Revolution By M. ganji, a book which in my opinions must be studied in the universities.

And about iranian movies i may be disappointing you a little bit becuase most of the iranian youth boycott the movies. iranian movie industry is under pressure of islamic regime you can't actually film any scenario you want, no no! your scenario must be approved by islamic ministry of culture so you can imagine all the films who are produced in iran are OK as long as they are distributed inside and outside. you have to understand that there are larg amounts of iranian students under the torture of the regime in prisons and it's very difficult to just go to the cinema and sit and watch a mullahs-approved philosophical movie. the most movies you see outside are financed by the regime for that special purpose, namely: for european tastes to act like nothing happens in iran. did u watch a movie made in iran in the recent years who is showing the story of people's unrests and jailed students? remeber they had also good directors in former ussr who were making philosophical themes? just like what is happening now in iran. But again sorry if i dissapointed you but this is the difficult face of life in iran.

kianb,

Thanks for all the links, these books are all new to me, so I'm very happy! :-)

You didn't disappoint me about the movies at all, I understand what you mean. Little artistic gems such as "The White Baloon", or "Children of Heaven", etc., were definitely oriented towards the west, but the reason I mentioned the "Circle" is because it's about the struggle and oppression women face in Iran. It's a film with no happy frillies and niceties. Everyone was a little surprised it got through...

A couple more books (you've probably read them), "Saffron Sky - A Life Between Iran and America" by Gelareh Asayesh, "Persian Mirrors - The Elusive Face of Iran" by Elaine Sciolino, and the one I'm currently reading, "Answering only to God - Faith and Freedom in Twenty-First-Century Iran" by Geneive Abdo.

I'm glad you've joined us on this forum, and thanks again for all the links. I'm off to Amazon for some ordering...
:-)

lol zork isn't this thread getting more and more long and more and more off topic? ;)
I know Circle and it's a nice film of Mr. Panahi but as an iranian it has a simple plot: putting a kid in a miserable situation! and this is exactly what eurpean film festivals want. I am not questioning the quality of iranian films, just i feel it doesn't seems right while students are under torture. What will you feel when you realize that the maker of Circle is travelling all around the world in different festivals with the money of the regime? My favourite director is Bahram Beyzai which is probably not soooo popular in west as Panahi or kiarostami or Makhmalbaf, eventhough he is making movies from the 60's. and the reason, is that he is not so kind to european festivals and he doesn't accept regime's support so much.
His masterpieces include Bashu, the little strangers, Travellers and Death of Yazdgerd.

And no i am not affiliate with amazon ;)

kianb,

One of the reasons I'm so interested in movies and books about Iran, is that it's amazing to see that torture and oppression cannot silence a country.

Another reason is that here in the West, many of us have a monolithic concept of the Muslim world, and unfortunately the Muslim world is not doing much to dispel this. Quite often we equate Iran=Iraq=Saudi Arabia=Pakistan=Egypt, etc., without distinguishing between different civilizations, cultures, and mindsets. Instead, everything is covered under the veil of Islam, which of course reflects the state of those countries today.

We don't see much in Arts and Literature coming out of, say, Saudi Arabia, or the Emirates, or Egypt (we all know what happened to Naguib Mahfouz), so this leaves many people with the idea that Muslims have nothing to offer to the west, only fanaticism and intolerance.

This is why I'm grateful for any glimpses of normality coming through. Even if it means a silly little movie, or a not-so-silly book like Tara Bahrampour's "To See and See Again" (another one of my favorites).

In Iran, the tides will change again, it's inevitable - (I fervently hope). If only the people in Iranian jails knew that a lot of us here in the West are holding them in our thoughts and prayers...

Oh, and since we've gone overboard with recommendations, I suppose you know Axiom of Choice? If not, you must hear them :-)

p.s. I know we're waaaay off topic and all, but I want to thank Mr. Spencer for providing this space where two people from different countries and backgrounds, can meet and exchange ideas, opinions, and book recommendations ;-)

Zorkmidden,
I thought you will send me an email this time but anyway if you like to make this thread longer and longer, i be my guest ;)
it's amazing to see that torture and oppression cannot silence a country
well i can tell you, the movie industry in iran is itself a part of the opression! this is a very sensitive point that i hope you understand. the regime's financial support to the movies that are specially written for european film festivals (most of them recieve less and less attention inside) and the fact that every scenario has to be proved by regime are 2 undeniable points that shows the whole movie industry in iran is a part of the tyranny. i know it's hard for you to understand becuase of so much nice and beautiful movies but remember that devil can also show hismelf as a very pretty girl ;) so the face of the situation doesn't say too much to me unless i know what is exactly going on behind the curtains.

I understand exactly what you mean of iraq=saudi arabi=egypt formula. I can not blame west for this picture. this is just it's built through the years and people of those countrie are blamed for that. but about iran i think it's a bit different. you see before arabs invades iran 1400 years ago to force people to be moslim, we had another religion (zarathustrianism) with 2000 years of written history. arabs came, they destoryed everything and killed anyone who didn't wanted to be a moslim. they burned so many ancient libraries in iran and destroyed zarathustrian sacred books. That's not like we were barbars and arabs came and made us moslim and culturized! in fact it's exactly the opposite way. We iranians gave so much of our culture and traditions to arabs. iranians were the first ones who made a grammatic for arabic language while arab world was ruled by abasids dynasty. in that time iranians were the head of administration and financial departments of arab empire! just becuase arabs couldn't read and write and calculate, iranians were their eyes and ears! arabs were un-alphabet before they invade iran! there are so many persian words in arabic language that shows a total influence of iran on islam. as you understand this is a very long story but i tried to give you a little glance of it. this last 25 years destroyed iran exactly as same as arabs did 1400 years ago. but iranians will never forget their own religion and traditions. that's why theses days you see a high level of interest in iranian youth to read books about iranian ancient religions and i know many many youth that in their heart they believe they are still zarathustrian and not moslim. why? well first of all becuase that is an iranian religion and islam is an imported chunky religion who came for un-alphabet arabs and has nothing to show to iranians with their vast wide sense of culture and religion (except blood of course). compare the main motto of zarathustrianism which is "good think, good speak, good deed" with motto of islam world which maybe "a good infidel, is a dead infidel"!!
these are 2 diffirent world. zarathustrianism preaches nothing but good and peace while islam preaches hatred and war.which one will be chosen by a sane human and which one by an insane one? the second reason that youth are deep interested in zarathustrianism is that it's a way of showing their protests to the islamic regime that we don't want you , we want our own religion our own culture and down to imported islam for once and forever. it's not like i hate arabs or something which i think it's really childish to go to that kindda feelings but these are the facts of the history.

Tara Bahrampour's masterpiece about her childhood in iran can still amuse u ofcourse ;) most of these books are published in united states and therefore are illegal in iran! regime is very sensitive about this kinds of personal accounts to the stories becuase it catches the heart of the people and a it's a bad reputation for the regime that's why illegal, you see how simple is that?;)

Axiom of Choice is a very nice trans-persian group, if i can call it like that ;) you see this is exactly what i am telling you that these bands can not grow inside iran, these are all the hard works of iranian emigrants in united states mainly in california. the women are still not allow to sing inside iran. i wish iranian cinema could also grow in california but as you can imagine producing an audio cd is much cheaper than making a movie, that's why we still don't see the faces of iranian life outside on films.

i was stumbling into my stuff and came across a very nice iranian children story book, it's called The Little Black Fish written by a one leftists primary school teacher, Samad Behrangi in the 60's. the book is banned in both shah and islamic regimes. it's a story of a little black fish who wants to go in the opposite direction of where the water flows in the river to reach the sea and the stories on the road ;). the mixture of what the writer wanted to say to the children and to the adults putting it on a way that won't be banned (there in the 60's) is magical. the book was banned after all. Behrangi was dead in later years in which it was said to be the work of shah secret police that like all other romours there is no proof for it that's why i can not judge whether is true or not. you see i am not a leftist or pro-shah or even an anti-leftist . i think the iranian youth is thinking beyond that limitation these days. democracy and human rights are 2 internationl conventions [surpisingly written an iranian king - cyrus the great - 2500 years ago;)] for all human kind. the name of the government doesn't matter . people have to change their mind and let no one take advantage of them. no one!

"or the spittle-mouthed cheering crowd at a lynching somewhere in the American south."

The one image that will never die in the minds of anti-Southerners, who conveniently forget the racism and the Klan activity and the slaves held in northern states! It is sad to find such stereotypical, sanctimonious language used by someone who ordinarily seems so clear-minded.

I don't know what the big deal is. We always burn flags after service at my church.

I don't know what the big deal is. We always burn flags after service at my church.