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Abu Hamza preaching on the street
A profile of the British radical Muslim group Al-Muhajiroun, whose activities I discuss in Onward Muslim Soldiers and have covered extensively here, and similar groups in Europe. This article is written from the perspective that American involvement in Iraq has dramatically increased these groups' size and influence. While that may be true, Al-Muhajiroun and others existed long before the Iraq war, as well as before 9/11 (as the article notes), and they recruit by presenting themselves as the exponents of pure Islam — an appeal that does not change in force with events in Iraq. From the New York Times, with thanks to Bruce Carradine:
LUTON, England, April 24 — The call to jihad is rising in the streets of Europe, and is being answered, counterterrorism officials say.In this former industrial town north of London, a small group of young Britons whose parents emigrated from Pakistan after World War II have turned against their families' new home. They say they would like to see Prime Minister Tony Blair dead or deposed and an Islamic flag hanging outside No. 10 Downing Street.
They swear allegiance to Osama bin Laden and his goal of toppling Western democracies to establish an Islamic superstate under Shariah law, like Afghanistan under the Taliban. They call the Sept. 11 hijackers the "Magnificent 19" and regard the Madrid train bombings as a clever way to drive a wedge into Europe.
On Thursday evening, at a tennis center community hall in Slough, west of London, their leader, Sheik Omar Bakri Mohammad, spoke of his adherence to Osama bin Laden. If Europe fails to heed Mr. bin Laden's offer of a truce — provided that all foreign troops are withdrawn from Iraq in three months — Muslims will no longer be restrained from attacking the Western countries that play host to them, the sheik said.
"All Muslims of the West will be obliged," he said, to "become his sword" in a new battle. Europeans take heed, he added, saying, "It is foolish to fight people who want death — that is what they are looking for."
On working-class streets of old industrial towns like Crawley, Luton, Birmingham and Manchester, and in the Arab enclaves of Germany, France, Switzerland and other parts of Europe, intelligence officials say a fervor for militancy is intensifying and becoming more open.
In Hamburg, Dr. Mustafa Yoldas, the director of the Council of Islamic Communities, saw a correlation to the discord in Iraq. "This is a very dangerous situation at the moment," Dr. Yoldas said. "My impression is that Muslims have become more and more angry against the United States."
Hundreds of young Muslim men are answering the call of militant groups affiliated or aligned with Al Qaeda, intelligence and counterterrorism officials in the region say.
Even more worrying, said a senior counterterrorism official, is that the level of "chatter" — communications among people suspected of terrorism and their supporters — has markedly increased since Mr. bin Laden's warning to Europe this month. The spike in chatter has given rise to acute worries that planning for another strike in Europe is advanced.
"Iraq dramatically strengthened their recruitment efforts," one counterterrorism official said. He added that some mosques now display photos of American soldiers fighting in Iraq alongside bloody scenes of bombed out Iraqi neighborhoods. Detecting actual recruitments is almost impossible, he said, because it is typically done face to face.
And recruitment is paired with a compelling new strategy to bring the fight to Europe.
Members of Al Qaeda have "proven themselves to be extremely opportunistic, and they have decided to try to split the Western alliance," the official continued. "They are focusing their energies on attacking the big countries" — the United States, Britain and Spain — so as to "scare" the smaller states.
Some Muslim recruits are going to Iraq, counterterrorism officials in Europe say, but more are remaining home, possibly joining cells that could help with terror logistics or begin operations like the one that came to notice when the British police seized 1,200 pounds of ammonium nitrate, a key bomb ingredient, in late March, and arrested nine Pakistani-Britons, five of whom have been charged with trying to build a terrorist bomb.
Stoking that anger are some of the same fiery Islamic clerics who preached violence and martyrdom before the Sept. 11 attacks.
On Friday, Abu Hamza, the cleric accused of tutoring Richard Reid before he tried to blow up a Paris-to-Miami jetliner with explosives hidden in his shoe, urged a crowd of 200 outside his former Finsbury Park mosque to embrace death and the "culture of martyrdom."
Though the British home secretary, David Blunkett, has sought to strip Abu Hamza of his British citizenship and deport him, the legal battle has dragged on for years while Abu Hamza keeps calling down the wrath of God. ...
Despite tougher antiterrorism laws, the police, prosecutors and intelligence chiefs across Europe say they are struggling to contain the openly seditious speech of Islamic extremists, some of whom, they say, have been inciting young men to suicidal violence since the 1990's.
One chapter in Sheik Omar's lectures these days is "The Psyche of Muslims for Suicide Bombing."
The authorities say that laws to protect religious expression and civil liberties have the result of limiting what they can do to stop hateful speech. In the case of foreigners, they say they are often left to seek deportation, a lengthy and uncertain process subject to legal appeals, when the suspect can keep inciting attacks.
That leaves the authorities to resort to less effective means, such as mouse-trapping Islamic radicals with immigration violations in hopes of making a deportation case stick. "In many countries, the laws are liberal and it's not easy," an official said.
At a mosque in Geneva, an imam recently exhorted his followers to "impose the will of Islam on the godless society of the West."
"It was quite virulent," said a senior official with knowledge of the sermon. "The imam was encouraging his followers to take over the godless society."
While such a sermon may be incitement, recruitment takes a more shadowy course, and is hard to detect, a senior antiterrorism official said. "Believers are appealed to in the mosques, but the real conversations take place in restaurants or cafes or private apartments," the official said.
While some clerics, like Abu Qatada — said to be the spiritual counselor of Mohamed Atta, who led the Sept. 11 hijacking team — remain in prison in Britain without charge, others like Sheik Omar, leader of a movement called Al Muhajiroun, carry on a robust ideological campaign.
"There is no case against me," Sheik Omar said in an interview. Referring to calls by members of Parliament that he be deported, he added, "but they are Jewish" and "they have been calling for that for years."
Among his ardent followers is Ishtiaq Alamgir, 24, who heads Al Muhajiroun in Luton and calls himself Sayful Islam, the sword of Islam. He says there are about 50 members here but exact numbers are secret. ...
Mainstream Muslims are outraged by the situation, saying the actions of a few are causing their communities to be singled out for surveillance and making the larger population distrustful of them.
Muhammad Sulaiman, a stalwart of the mainstream Central Mosque here, was penniless when he arrived from the Kashmiri frontier of Pakistan in 1956. He raised money to build the Central Mosque here and now leads a campaign to ban Al Muhajiroun radicals from the city's 10 mosques. ...
Other community leaders look to the government to do something, if only to help prevent the demonization of British Muslims, or "Islamophobia," as some here call it. ...
In Slough, Sheik Omar spent much of his time Thursday night regaling his young followers with the erotic delights of paradise — sweet kisses and the pleasures of bathing with scores of women — while he also preached the virtues of death in Islamic struggle as a ticket to paradise.
He spoke of terrorism as the new norm of cultural conflict, "the fashion of the 21st century," practiced as much by Tony Blair as by Al Qaeda. ...
And he warned Western leaders, "You may kill bin Laden, but the phenomenon, you cannot kill it — you cannot destroy it."
"Our Muslim brothers from abroad will come one day and conquer here and then we will live under Islam in dignity," he said.
Posted by Robert at April 26, 2004 9:12 AM
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The observation that these Muslims hope to divide the Western alliance by splitting Europe from the United States has been underway for three decades. It began soon after the Yom Kippur War, when leaders of France and Germany, in particular, began to push for ways to accomodate Arab demands on all fronts. The so-called Euro-Arab Dialogue has been the formal expression of the appeasement process, one which has carefully allowed for the mass migration, virtually unhindered, of millions of Muslims into Western Europe, where they now pose a security threat, and make the lives of the indigenous non-Muslim populations much more unpleasant (from the slitting of sheeps' throats, to the muezzin's wail heard in so many places, from early in the morning till late at night, to the takeover of whole sections of cities or indeed, of entire cities -- think of Marseilles today), expensive (the huge cost of monitoring this Muslim population, from paying agents in the mosques, to policing sections of town where Muslims are "active," committing nearly 70% of the rapes in Norway and Denmark (and are responsible for similar percentages elsewhere) and a great deal of the theft and vandalism (the torching of the cards of non-Muslims in the banlieues, where the populations are mainly Muslim, indeed in all the quartiers chauds of France, and of course dangerous -- from the individual in a kippah (several murders of Jews in Paris recently, by Muslims intent on earning their green card for Paradise, in the quickest possible way), to any woman walking down the street, to all those who work in office buildings, or take the metro or the train, or get on planes, or ships. A permanent presence, permitted by those who first started the Euro-Arab ball rolling, with its clever appeal to those pre-existing mental conditions, anti-Americanism and antisemitism (the former has its current avatar in those who pretend only that they have a quarrel with "cowboy Bush"; the latter has its current avatar in the constant vilification of Israel, and the repeated misinformation spread about the Jihad against it, and Israel's quite modest efforts, under the circumstances, to defend itself).
It is amusing that this report offers as a present undertaking -- the splitting of Europe from America -- what in fact has been virtually accomplished already, thanks to all those French and German and Italian and Belgian and Dutch politicians who have betrayed their own peoples (think of all the French people who cannot bring themselves to vote for Le Pen, but are at their wits' end about the Muslim invasion -- and have no place to turn, for France lacks a politician of common sense to speak directly about Islam, not as Le Pen does (Le Pen is in fact a secret ally of the Muslims -- he prevents, it seems, anyone coming forth, someone in the Tocqueville-Raymond Aron-Jacques Ellul line, from steppping forth and creating a Free France within what is now an Occupied France -- occupied by Muslims and their sympathizers, and their apologists, and those in their pay, and those too fearful to say anything.
Europe for decades has been mutating into Occupied Europe; let there be set up, somewhere -- perhaps in Washington -- a series of entites, peopled by those from the various European countries, who will -- to gain public recognition within Europe, to rouse the populations -- call themselves the Free French, or the government--of-Spain in exile, or whatever they want. Let them get as much publicity as they can, here and in Europe. Let them issue statements, deploring the latest examples of dhimmitude. Let them explain the demographic facts -- that 1 out of every 3 children now born in France is Muslim, which means that in 20 years 1 out of every 3 people in France (one refrains from saying "Frenchmen" for their loyalties are, and must be, elsewhere) will be Muslim, which means that 20 years after that, France will have a Muslim majority -- and long before that, will have become intolerable for most of its non-Muslim citizens. It is the same, with a little delay, in other countries around it. What will happen to the people of France? To the statues and paintings in the Louvre? To the teaching of European history and European literature? To the famous French skepticism and irony? To the free-thinkers and the libertines, and the flaneurs, and the flamboyant, and everything that has been the product, in Chamfort's phrase, of the Perfected Civilisation? It cannot be allowed to go under just because the French political elites have behaved as foolishly, and wickedly, as any of those who took part in the Vichy Government.
The United States must help the people of Occupied Europe -- ideologically occupied, and increasingly, occupied by conquest from a geopolitical cult that, because of its sheer size (if there were 5 million Muslims, and not a billion, we would readily call it a cult), is allowed to hide behind the name "relgion" when it is, in the main, a geopolitical cult that owes its origins to the need for pagan Arabs to concoct a rival ideology that might both promote, and justify, the conquest (whether out of Arabia, as the old history books put it, or as is more likely, from the Arab tribes who had already slowly infiltrated into Mesopotamia and Syria) of other, far more advanced, richer, and more populous peoples who were Christians, Jews, and Zoroastrians.
That cult is now coming to a country near you. It can only make your life more unpleasant, more dangerous, more expensive. It has happened in Europe. Anyone with eyes to see can only regret what is happening there, and should be determined to make sure that here, these other shores, these autres rivages, such folly will not be repeated.
Posted by: Hugh at April 26, 2004 9:40 AM
Who could improve upon Hugh's excellent and erudite comment? I an only add from the words of the article:
While such a sermon may be incitement, recruitment takes a more shadowy course, and is hard to detect, a senior antiterrorism official said. "Believers are appealed to in the mosques, but the real conversations take place in restaurants or cafes or private apartments," the official said.
We should, of course, be using these "shadowy" tactics among our own to get out the word. Bring along this and other articles. This should curl their hair and knock the blinders off. (One would hope.)
Posted by: epg at April 26, 2004 9:47 AMman abu hamza is one crazy looking dude!
Posted by: joseph at April 26, 2004 9:53 AMIslam has proven that it is from the pits of Hell
The fact that there are over 1 billion muslims and all they can do is complain and whine about the injustice done to them by a small nation called Israel proves what all christians know.
Salvation is of the Jews.
Islam cannot stand up to any serious scrutiny in a biblical context.
Islam is only about death and destruction.
God in heaven would not make his people (and i mean all people in his image)
then tell a select group (meanin muslims) that all the others are to be considered dogs only worthy to be killed..
I will say this now to all muslims.
Repent of your sins for the day of Gods final return is coming soon.
What a horrible thing for a muslim to be taught this vile teaching then when he or she dies only to find themselves in Hell with mohammed right there next to them.
God is weaping over the muslim population knowing they are on their way to hell.
God never ever wanted any human to die and go to hell
"For i have not come to jude the world but to save it" "For i have come that you might have live through my name"
What a horrible thing for a muslim to be taught all their life that when you will die (marterdom) you will end up in paradise then to find out after yor dead that mohammed is right next to you in the fires of hell saying I was wrong.
Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand.
America will not bow down to the false god of islam. We know what we believe our god is the
God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob the Lord of Israel
We in america also need to repent for the bible states "When you see these things look up for your redemtion draws nigh".
it is more than who is right. God is God there is none other. He cannot change neither is there any shadow of turning with him.
Islam is wrong period.
Mohammed is in hell period.
you decide where you going "but for me an my house we will server the Lord"
and he is the Lord jesus christ full of grace and truth.
Why isn't this considered "treason" or "sedition" or have we gotten so PC that ranting about overthrowing the government is ok?
jihan
Posted by: jihan at April 26, 2004 10:00 AMEuropean governments have cynically exploited the anti-Americanism and anti-Israeli sentiments that have existed in large parts of western Europe for decades to deflect the growing anger of the populous.
Instead of peoples’ anger being directed to where it should be; at the mosques and the liberal elites who allowed and even connived in the slow Islamic occupation of their countries, they are instead encouraged to vent their anger on the US and Israel.
guess muslims and islamists are waiting for the coming of jesus christ, when jesus leading the muslims and creating once agian the muslim state all over the world, o disbelievers, have has much fun, and happy days you like, muslims are patient waiting for the coming then we see if your nukes work or cruise missles. without the will of allah(god) fighter planes will not be able to fly, ships won't be able to sail, do you not realise that with the will of allah we are nothing so live a life of luxury, because once you die as a disbeliever the fire of hell is all that you will abode.
In the name of Allah ,Most Gracious, Most Merciful
Say : O disbelievers!
I worship not that which ye worship ;
Nor worship ye that which I worship .
And I shall not worship that which ye worship .
Nor will ye worship that which I worship .
Unto you your religion , and unto me my religion .
if you had any sense you learn the true religion the religion of one allah and the religion of the messenger of allah mohammed(pbuh).
In the name of Allah ,Most Gracious, Most Merciful
Say : He is Allah , the One!
Allah , the eternally Besought of all!
He begetteth not nor was begotten .
And there is none comparable unto Him .
so disbelievers you still have time before you die follow islam and recieve your bounties in the next world, the eternal life
In the name of Allah ,Most Gracious, Most Merciful
When Allah's succor and the triumph cometh
And thou seest mankind entering the religion of Allah in troops
Then hymn the praises of thy Lord , and seek forgiveness of Him . Lo! He is ever ready to show mercy .
peace
I am amazed that the Times would print this article. Could things be getting so bad in Europe that even the liberals are becoming frightened? Perhaps they realize that nothing is more illiberal than Islam.
Posted by: basil at April 26, 2004 10:22 AMI'm not sure that kicking these people out of Britain - or any country - is a good idea - they can become part of the moon-god allah's army. They should be put in prison on some island somewhere - until they die.
Posted by: Chaya Eitan at April 26, 2004 10:24 AMYou are whistling into the wind. Your rotten, Godless "civilization" is crumbling all around you, and yet you continue to deny reality. As I have said many times before, your grandchildren will be Muslim. You cannot defy the will of Almighty Allah (swt).
Allahu akbar
Hey Reza,
You boast of victory too soon.
Mark my words:
Soon there will arise in Europe a new movement that will call upon the spirit of Charles Martel, who destroyed the Arab invaders in the battle of Poitiers in 753. Once Europe realizes exactly what the problem is, its people will take action.
Europeans will ask themselves the hard question: what kind of country do we wish to have in 20 -30 years? Do we really want a muslim majority?
The answer will be a resounding NO, followed by action.
Just as the muslim armies were destroyed at Poitiers in 753, kicked out of Spain in the 15th century, routed at the gates of Vienna in 1683, so will today's Europe turn back islamic fascism.
It will happen soon. It will only take one or two more terror attacks. Then it will begin.
Islam will lose, because theocratic fascism belongs to yesterday's history.
Mike H
Posted by: Michael Hartrich at April 26, 2004 11:19 AMReza- "yee-haw, we're circling the wagons, the hostiles are coming for us!" Guess what, none of us will allow you all to do it us again! Cra-aa-k!
Posted by: epg at April 26, 2004 11:40 AMYou are whistling into the wind. Your rotten, Godless "civilization" is crumbling all around you, and yet you continue to deny reality. As I have said many times before, your grandchildren will be Muslim. You cannot defy the will of Almighty Allah (swt).
Allahu akbar
Posted by Reza at April 26, 2004 11:07 AM
That whistling in the wind you spew is that of artillery on its way to remove jihad from planet earth. Keep dreaming, Reza Merda. Our grandchildren will be Muslim? You say this in every thread. Get a new routine you didng dong.
This one isn't working.
By the way...We're not the Godless ones. Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Shintos, see....we have religion, where you, belong to a death cult. A death cult founded on the beliefs of a rapist, theif, murderer, child molester named Mohammed, Mohammad, Muhammud......doesn't really matter.
We have a God, you have an Idol, a Hero.....a murderous thug, a bushwhacker.....Sorry pal, but until you embrace the facts, the true facts, that cannot be located anywhere in the Qur'an, Koran.....you'll remain in a fantasy world with pie in the sky dreams of sister raping, wife beating, theft, and murder of innocent people.
Posted by: DCWatson at April 26, 2004 11:59 AM
Notice that this is directed to "Muslim Brothers" - nothing about women because we all know what place women have in Islam.
Underneath the foot of the male.
jihan
Posted by: jihan at April 26, 2004 12:03 PM"guess muslims and islamists are waiting for the coming of jesus christ, when jesus leading the muslims and creating once agian the muslim state all over the world,"
Posted by kufar janum
What utter delusion! Be assured mr. janum that when Jesus returns it will be for one reason and one reason only; To gather to Himself those who have believed in Him and embraced Him as their Lord and Savior,and to set up His perfect Kingdom once and for all, where no evil dwells as all sin will have been judged and dealt with, and the purpetrators of it (unless they have repented) will suffer the same fate.
Some scriptures from the uncorruptable Word of the Living God;
"We do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.Therefore encourage each other with these words." 1Thessalonians 4:13-18
"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.
Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat." 2 peter 3:10-12
"Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with dissipation, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you unexpectedly like a trap.For it will come upon all those who live on the face of the whole earth. Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man." Luke 21:34-36
I urge you kufar janum and reza,
This day truly will come like a thief, repent now! Embrace the Son of the Living God, Jesus Christ, as your Lord and Savior before its too late, Accept His sacrifice for the remission of your sins. Turn away from the lies of Islam which seek to keep you bound in darkness, and turn to the light of Jesus Christ and His glorious Gospel.
kc.
Posted by: kc (england) at April 26, 2004 12:05 PMReza,
I'm not a religious person but I do recognize and believe that life is a precious gift from God and we are all created in his image. If anything, islam (muslims) are driving me back to my Christian roots. Islam has absolutely no respect for life. To kill innocent men, women, and children or to commit suicide in the name of God is an abomination. It's like spitting in the face of God.
I urge you to reflect on a religion that would kill those created in God's image (in God's name). Would God put non-muslims on earth just for muslims to kill? Why bother?
As far as muslims longing for paradise with the virgins and whatever, to think that God would want man to strive for such an unworthy, self-indulgence is well beyond misguided. It cheapens God's creations and our existence.
Posted by: Skeptic at April 26, 2004 12:13 PMReza writes:
"Your rotten, Godless "civilization" is crumbling all around you, and yet you continue to deny reality."
Reza, perhaps blinded by mind numbing hatred, you falsely extrapolate from the behavior of some, to the behavior of all. Yes, there are some rotten, Godless people living in Western civilization, but that does not mean Western civilization is itself decadent. The vast majority of Westerners live very decently and, in fact, are just as appalled at immorality as you claim to be. Perhaps you would feel better if we reintroduced public torture and mutilation as we practiced in Medieval times, and Islamic states still do?
Hypocritically, Reza, you seem to think that Islamic "civilization" is morally superior. This despite the abundant evidence of thriving corruption, immorality, and inhumanity in Islamic states. If the West is corrupt Reza, at least we are honest about it; we don't revel in it behind closed doors, or dress it up in religious garb. Oh, and please don't say all that will end when the world is completely Islamic; history shows that when there are no "infidels" to kick around, Muslims start slitting each others throats.
Finally, Reza, there is absolutely no evidence that Western civilization is crumbling. Economically, militarily, scientifically, and culturally we are thriving quite nicely. Perhaps you mistake as "crumbling" our constant, creative evolution; creativity being something almost unknown in Islamic "culture."
Posted by: Dave at April 26, 2004 12:46 PMReza wishes he could whistle in the wind, but his rotten, godless "teeth" leave him unable to pucker. And Reza, your religion spread by the sword, but the bronze age is over. Welcome to the new world order.
And DC is right, get a new motto, the grandchildren analogy is sad and tired, like you. Now go bus those tables, jihadkiddie. The kitchen needs clean dishes.
yabba dabba akbar
Posted by: basil at April 26, 2004 1:10 PMOK, Reza-swine, name ONE verifible scientific/technical/medical advance coming out of the Muslim world in the last, oh, say 500 years. No terrorism and jihad doesn't count.
Looks like this will be the last moonbat generation the way things are going.
Posted by: CyberPinoy at April 26, 2004 1:20 PMToo many people have had to die in the name of religon. Something is wrong here. If you look at the wars of the past centuries, religon has been the reason.
Posted by: TOM at April 26, 2004 1:35 PM"...name ONE verifible scientific/technical/medical advance coming out of the Muslim world in the last, oh, say 500 years."
500 Years? What happened 500 years ago that could answer your question. You can probably ask the same question and go farther back than that, say 1500 years?
Posted by: Avatar at April 26, 2004 1:40 PMOne thing I do see that, unfortunately, the Democrats may lock onto: the fact(?) that the war in Iraq may have pushed more scum out of the woodwork. Of course the Dems/liberals will say We caused them to go extremist. I don't buy that for a second. I think they were waiting for the chance to push out into full view, and now think they have the moral high ground (total Bunk on that score, of course. They don't even know what moral means.).
If this helps us weed out the bad from the good that much easier, so be it. Unfortunately it may be easier to tell in Europe than here for some time yet; they find it easier to speak out in Europe.
Posted by: Gary at April 26, 2004 1:50 PMI was giving the moonbat a chance... 1500 years is much more realistic.
Absolutely nothing except terrorism has ever come out Islam or Islamic countries.
Posted by: CyberPinoy at April 26, 2004 1:57 PMReza
The Bible preaches about the Anti Christ. This person has already appeared and you in your ignorance follow him as he created a Cult called Islam.
Wake up, open you eyes and accept the truth for once in you worthless life.
By the way, my grand children will never worship the Devil the way you and yours do.
God is indead great but not the Devil you worship
Allahu akbar
Posted by: BG, RET at April 26, 2004 2:12 PMTOM wrote,
"Too many people have had to die in the name of religon. Something is wrong here. If you look at the wars of the past centuries, religon has been the reason."
Tom,I have to disagree. It's certainly true that many Christians have justified aggression on religious grounds, but a clear reading of the Bible demonstrates that their "justifications" are actually rationalisations which contradict Biblical teachings and the life of Jesus. So I'd argue that it was not this particular religion at fault, but rather that too many people did not practice it.
The only major "faiths" that actually justify, indeed promote, in their core teachings, warfare for the purpose of conquering or converting unbelievers are the "isms" of the 20th century (Communism, Nazism, Fascism), and Islam. I'm pretty confident that these "religions" have enslaved and murdered on a scale beyond the wildest fantasies of the nastiest, in-name-only "Christians."
And yes, I think Islam belongs right there with Nazism etc.
Posted by: Dave at April 26, 2004 2:28 PMCareful, BG,RET: Allah is NOT = God, but = SATAN. Yahwehu Akbar! Khristu Akbar!
Posted by: Sasha at April 26, 2004 2:59 PMOne hardly knows where to begin with this one. 1st with Hugh. If it is now an "Occupied Europe", does that mean at some point in the near future we're going to have to go there and bail their sorry butts out again?
Two. Whatever Elmer Fudd moment the Jihadists are having, they have grossly miscalculated the personality and demeanor of the average American. I don't mean those libs who haven't a clue, I mean the guys who stockpiled weapons during the cold war and still have them. I mean the guys who when PO'd are stunning in their defense of their homeland--America and all it stands for.
Historically, no Jihad movement has ever succeeded. But the Jihadists don't know that because they've never studied history or anything else worth knowing.
What I fail to comprehend is if death is so much better than life, why they don't just all, like happy little lemmings, run themselves into the sea?
We don't need a nuclear war to imagine a post-apocalyptic world, just imagine if the Jihadists did take over. It'd be like a bad 1950's B movie. No services, no medicine, no agriculture, no education, nothing to buy, nothing to make, nothing to trade, no chocolate.
Posted by: Jem Blume at April 26, 2004 3:22 PM
Inside every male muslim is a terrorist in waiting for I believe a Muslim fundalmentalist is a person willing to kill others in the name of their religon. Islam needs a renassance in the worst way. But...sadly, no Imamn or cleric has the guts to do or say what is True and the World may have to eliminate a few generations of these so called "Holy Warriors" to effect change.
Posted by: TOM at April 26, 2004 3:34 PM"{your grandchildren will be Muslim" hahaha what a joke, history shows the complete opposite happens people become more christian and more right wing at that with absolutely no fear of pseaking their mind, something the west needs to learn. being a descendant from a civilization which suffered 500 years of islam the opposite is true we are even more pro christian than ever before, first hand expereince wakes u up to reality and u nolonger take their shit...muslims should be greatful to the US for saving their ass in the balkans because if it wasnt for the US there would be no muslims in the balkans today, eastern europe, greece , armenia all suffered under islam for being christian but today having freed themslevs from this backward civilization they thrive while their old subgecators still wollow in the past and have become the opposite of what reza says, they virtually have no muslims in their country as they are openly not welcome.
Posted by: pro-orthodox at April 27, 2004 12:28 AMJust think what would have happened if Islamic terrorist would have hijacked planes and flown into say the Empire State Building in FDR's America.
They would have been rounded up faster than the Japanese. And the hijackers coming from Suadi Arabia? Mecca would have been over run by General Patton in no time. You would have seen a real War On Terror.
And yes after Pearl Harbour there was a public commission and unlike after 9/11 HEADS ROLLED and people were fired for letting America down.
This generation of Americans is only a shadow of that one. Were being attacked because the attackers know they can get away with it. Osama is still at large if no one has noticed.
The Jihadist threat is similar to the facist threat in terms of personal liberty and freedoms. We have to fight this struggle as diligently as that one.
Wesley
Posted by: wesley at April 27, 2004 12:51 AMVictory over Islamo-fascism'll be hard to obtain without the unity of the West in the face of its dire threat.
There'll be no substitute for victory in this war.
However, the French élites, congenitally, see things differently: they seek to justify their policy of appeasement as a viable method of dealing in geopolitics - if it didn't work against Hitler, why, that doesn't prove to them that the approach is innately at fault, just that they should have offered the whole of Czechoslovakia to Hitler at Munich in 1938, probably Poland as well, not only the Sudetenland!
The French wish to be the "counter-balance" to the US in Machtspolitik, but they'll end up swamped, without American help when they're in big trouble again. Who else can aid them? The UN? The EU? The Arab League? The Organization of Islamic Conferences? The Sorbonne? The Red Cross & Crescent? The "international community"?
They might count on these, but, in truth, they've got as much chance of useful assistance from them as they would from Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny.
Why do the French love appeasement so much? Because they haven't had a taste of victory since Napoleon and have by now preferred to forget that even it exists, striving to deny it to others (except, curiously, for the Islamo-fascists, who they deem deserve it, due to the "long history of victimization" they've encountered at the hands of "victors" - which can't include France because of its unblemished record of losses for 2 centuries).
France have high thoughts about them selfs.
But from this Saturday we will have, among others,Poland as a member in EU. And they don`t kneel to France! Well, France is beliving that Poland now will tourn against USA because they now are in EU! The France illness is called MEGALOMANIA. Chirac is really not living in reality. And reality is : that we have to fight islam in all christen countries.
Islam is not an religion, it`s at satanic cult. And it has nothing to do in Western countries.
And belive me we have to go to war against this cult- for the 3th time. And we will do it because as Churchill said: We will never surrender. Never.
From Denmark with love.
For anybody interested in a good, coherent analysis of Islamic terrorism (and terrorism in general) I suggest an article titled "When Devils Walk the Earth" by Ralph Peters, a former USMC colonel. It is on the Internet.
Reading it is well worth the effort. I even strongly recommend it to any Muslims who do not want to see Islam destroyed, as will certainly happen if Islam goes the radical route that Osama bin Laden & Co. want it to go and the apocalyptic "war of civilizations" or all-out jihad with the non-Muslim world does come--because in that case, if the USA does not destroy Islam, someone else (India and China come to mind as the most likely destroyers) will.
Posted by: Ricky D. Calhoun at April 27, 2004 11:22 AM
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