Perhaps all of these people are "beating the charges" because they are innocent. Or is it a crime simply to be a Muslim?

Actually, of course, the purpose of all these prosecutions is to oppress the Muslims, "teach them a lesson", and keep them in line.

Allahu akbar

The trouble is the tendrils of Islam, for decades, have been silently creeping into and wrapping themselves around the throats of the countries (ours included) that think they benefit from looking benevolent or from the cheap labour Muslims seem to offer...(Sneezing here...AhhhhfranceChoo)

But the Muslims do not stay house maids and drivers..They Never assimilate in the host country BUT...They get educated and their children get educated and slowly but surely they become lawyers, court clerks, administrative personally in all levels of Government and business and by the time you wake up....Gee? The City Council is promoting Isalm... Files go missing in the Prosecuters office, witnesses (that enjoy living) get cold feet and maybe You begin hearing a Call to Prayer 5 times a day (Hint Hint Hamtramck) over a loud speaker??

WE had better WAKE UP....NOW....

Enough Muslims in England, Germany, and France have called for instituting Sharia that I doubt if they were ALL innocent.If they feel "oppressed", they can vote with their feet and go back to the sharia paradise they came from.

After the terrorist incident in Khobar, not far from where I live, I'm about out of sympathy.

(Someone is going to ask ... Why am I still here?. I like my job. I'm good at it. And it fulfills a need that the Saudis cannot fill yet.)

Jay~ Hang in there. But be prepared, this is Not over.

Reza~ if OBL lifts his 'truce' with European governments, I suspect a Lot more of your friends will be in court- and things will begin to stick.

I also suspect there are people in those offices agreeable to your side, otherwise why would a crucial police report have disappeared?

what is the alternative?

rule of law and right to a fair and impartial trial is what separates us from the animals.

we give up that right then the jihadist have already won.

The evidence has been so thin that prosecutors have been unable to provide basic details of the attacks Garnaoui was allegedly planning,

What is your problem here?? An innocent Brother Muslim who is accused of false and unproven alligations but becuase he is Muslim, you have to show your hatred on him.

This site is not for showing the Holy Jihad. This site is for showing the world the level of anti-muslim facists and racists exitst in the west.

In a war, if it is properly recognized as a war, though of a novel kind, one does things that in peacetime would be unacceptable. The criminal law in the Western world, with all of its procedural safeguards, the expenses of personnel -- all those detectives, wiretapping, those judges, those lawyers on both sides, is imperfect and very expensive.

Not the least of the lessons this and similar cases point up is the vast expense to which Infidel countries must go when a Muslim population is present. Aside from having to pay for the security necessary forschools, churches, synagogues, nuclear reactors, airports, subway systems, train stations, liquified natural gas terminals, oil installations, and --- well, you get the idea -- there is the cost of all the legal measures that are so ponderously undertaken, with the procedural guarantees that make each trial so very expensive. How much money should Infidels require of themselves that they divert to these security forces, to these trials?

We have no sure method of distinguishing Muslims who pose an active danger, those who merely support them, those who do not support them but will do nothing to turn them it, those who neither support them, and even might turn them in, but nonetheless help to present, in their sly taqiyya (which may be undertaken partly out of a loyalty to Muslim ancestors, a kind of misplaced filial piety, or fear of endangering their own status and continued presence in the countries of the dar al-Harb), a view of Islam that itself represents a danger, as contributing to the foolish unwariness of many Infidels.

If the Saudi security forces are riddled with secret supporters of Al Qaeda, and even the malevolent Wahhabi regime cannot distinguish among those who are its enemies and those who are willing to support their regime (corrupt and barbaric as it recognizably is), how can mere Infidels be expected to distinguish those Muslims who are a mortal threat, from those who are entirely innocent and place loyalty to the Infidel nation-state above their loyalty to Islam (of the latter, I would argue there are almost none).

This Jihad, with agents residing securely, and with full legal guarantees, deep within the enemy camp, and free to manipulate and exploit every instrument, including propaganda and da'wa, to further the Jihad, is a new kind of war. Much more imagination will be required, and many other kinds of measures undertaken, than are being, at this point, discussed rationally. mentioned. But events will prove them necessary. In the end, the will to survive without having to endure incredible expense, unpleasantness, and danger will trump all sentimental pieties.

Mr. Hugh
So in plain english, are you suggesting the western countries to be more secret police states?
cutting the court expenses and going straight to the point, which is arresting suspecting Muslim brothers and sisters and repressing them more and more, holding them years in custody without a simple charge? more Guantanamo Bay?

It's interesting thought that you brought up "the expenses". I don't the west has the sufficient moeny to fight our Muslim brothers in a global war on terror. As americans many times admitted.

americans also don't have the moral for this war.
In 2 or 3 generations, the western culture of coca-cola and mtv will be so corrupted that they will face the same outcome as roman empire. while the moral of Muslim brothers are everyday higher and with every Brother martyred there are hundreds other joining as you see in last 3 years as you see in this article.

The religion of beheading has high moral standards? Put down the hookah, mahmood...

yabba dabba akbar!

It is interesting that the same muslims who hate western justice and "manmade law" are so noisy when they beat the rap. Try to find a jury trial under sharia, it doesn't exist. They go straight to amputation or stoning.

Mamoud, you sick puppy,
how dare you mention
the word morals?
You of the sacred lies,
the cries for revenge,
You of the two gods,
you of the slave gods,
you of the sexist god,
you of the demon gods
who must be fed on a diet
of murder, mayhem, blood
and hate,a molach, a bahomet
from mohamet's deluded mind.
your kind is not a race,
but a pitiful horde, not humanity,
but profanity from the mouth of satan.

American and European courts are held to a much greater standard of proof than courts from many other countries.

As the article points out, it has been difficult to access witnesses for possible prosecution in many of these cases. Look at the rulings handed down by judges in the Netherlands that make testimony by spy agencies not admissible in court. Eventually the courts and prosecutors will come to a point where they can reach an acceptable approach to the rule of law in dealing with possible terrorist suspects and those who may be implicated as conspiring with them. In fact they will have no choice but to do that.

Though "search and seisure rulings" our constantly challenged in our courts on an every day basis,when it comes to national security, law enforcement has a hardened duty to act on the flimsiest of evidence and not be intimidated by search and seizure rulings as long as there is some smoke that can be articulated that leads to the apprehension of possible suspects whether it can reach the high standard of prosecutable evidence required by the courts or not.

It is far better to investigate and identify these possible suspects when it comes to national security then to simply have law enforcement throw their hands up and say that they don`t think there is enough evidence to prosecute them.

Hugh - eloquent and again a true analysis of the situation.

I must add that Islam has had 1400 years to perfect their strategies of taqiyya and kitman of which the contemporary West is now learning and which it is now grappling. Tailoring our own strategies to thwart the efforts of Islam to overrun our society through any means necessary make require tweaking our legal system. It is not something that we like to do, but, when faced with such a diabolical and ruthless enemy, one must make the necessary changes.

Silly Europeans have been beguiled and cowed by their Leftist intellectuals and their traitorous press. Some in the American government and in the press are just as stupid and duped, but Americans on the grassroots level are not that stupid. We will do what we have to do to make it.

Mahmoud:

"Since i spend most of my day praying and reading Holy Koran, there are not so much other books in my wish list."

Seems to me you are spending most of your day reading and posting at Jihad Watch. Remember, associating with infidels in any way will just draw you further into our web, no matter how you try to resist ... I can see it happening already.

May 31, 2004
Saudis let terrorist escape??
China says they are watching how we do war in Iraq?? China say they are not strong enough to take us on directly??
We Pray In our hearts for all those lost who have fought for the USA for Freedom and lost their life’s For they have given ALL!!!

Part of the American Tribe

God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and All who Fight with her give them Strength and Courage to stay the Course to Victory Amen

Moore Spoke With Berg Months Before Death
NewsMax Wires
Monday, May 31, 2004
PHILADELPHIA (AP) --
Given Moore's political leanings, David Berg said he was "really nervous" about what the footage of his brother might show. His brother wasn't overtly political, he said.
"He went to Iraq because he had certain beliefs about helping people in messed up situations, but it's not like he was trying to help the Bush administration," David Berg said.
David Berg said Moore handled the situation with "dignity, respect and discipline."

What follows is an answer to my questions posed to the editor of www.jihadunspun.com regarding the quran and its direction to convert or kill non believers, and force christians and jews into subjugation. I would be interested in your comments.

Dear Kirk,

Thanks for contacting us.

Does it surprise you at all that the oldest landmarks of old religions do exist today and have been preserved over the centuries in Muslim areas? In fact it was Israel, as an example of occupiers of Muslim lands, who destroyed parts of the Church of Nativity, over 2000 mosques and numerous sacred Christian and Muslim sites. It was the US and Britain who destroyed one the world's seven wonders, the Suspended Gardens of Babylon, in Gulf War of 1991. And Yes, it was Napoleon, a -self-claimed devout Christian, who attempted to destroy another world wonder, Pyramids of Giza and Sphinx where his "Canon prints" are there for the world to see.

If Islam was such as you described, I suppose Muslims won't be the largest religious community in the world and Islam won't be the fastest growing faith in history.

Your characterization is obviously a bet cloudy. First, the website you are quoting is not an Islamic site but rather a propaganda site put out to confuse the issues. I suggest you visit www.islam.com or www.discoverislam.com to learn more about Islam.

I will just address one of the issues you raised as an example.

Muslims are obliged to pay Zakat which adds up to 2.5% of excess wealth every year. Zakat is collected by the state and is expended on eight specified categories.

Zakat is not collected from non-Muslims living in Islamic state. However, non-Muslims are specifically assigned as one of the groups to receive Zakat revenues, and non-Muslims may also qualify to fall into the other non-Muslim-exclusive categories.

Muslims are mandatorily drafted to serve in the Muslim forces to protect the Islamic State and to provide relief for any community that seeks to remove injustice inflected by either Muslims or non-Muslims in areas outside territory of the Islamic state. Non-Muslim residents of the Islamic state are instead required to pay "Jezya" in return for such protection. Should non-Muslims willingly chose to enlist in Muslim armies, Jezya is waived and non-Muslim soldiers are entitled to a share in the gains of the battles they fight. Additionally, should Muslim armies fail to protect an area where non-Muslims reside, non-Muslim population is waived Jezya and paid Jezya must be refunded by the Muslim State.

As for your question with regard to tolerance of Islam towards other religions, I refer you to the verse before last in the second chapter of the Holy Quran.

As to your characterization of Muslim countries, please notice that Muslim countries are mostly ruled by virtually anti-Muslim regimes that were installed and are solely protected by either colonial powers or the US as the inheritror of the Colonial era. Accordingly, both practices and policies of such regimes should be only addressed in the light of their western context.

With regard to the Qura'anic text you cited, you must also view the context in which it was revealed. Some verses of the Qura'an were revealed as incident-specific, in which case Muslims are required to measure cases at hand to the cited incident to derive the jurisdiction that applies to the case at hand.

These verses were revealed in reference to an incident in which Qureish, Muslims sworn pagan enemies, violated a covenant which it signed with Muslims a year earlier titled "Sulhul Hudeibiyya". Although Qureish violation, in murdering Muslims who were particularly cited in the covenant, was both clear and severe, Muslims still debated their response to Qureish aggression.
It is worth mentioning that many Muslims at the time of signing also viewed the covenant between victorious Muslims and the defeated Muslims as advantageous to the losing non-Muslims. As Muslims, and Arabs before them, were particularly cautious not to violate their covenants, the Qura'anic verses came to assure Muslims that resorting to apply penalties of breaking the covenant by Qureish was indeed due.

The result of these verses, incidentally, was the Liberation of Mecca in which no blood was shed and which signaled a new era of spread of Islam to Spain in the west and to China in the east.

I strongly advise you to obtain a copy of the Holy Quran which you will find to include a both translatory and explanation. While verses such as this one may seem to include negative connotations, a simple review of what is referred to as "occasion of revelation" will undoubtedly provide insights that clarify the intended meaning.

Should you have any difficulty obtaining a copy, please feel free to contact us again.

Best
Bruce Kennedy
Editor

Mohommad
Thought that islam was about peace guess you show us that it is not you want to kill all Christians.
An Buddy it don't take morals to kill it takes morals to save a life like in your qu-ran and that Would be the USA and Friends that have saved Many Iraqi life's from the Evil Saddam if you don't belive go to Iraq and see all the people he cut their limbs off!!! Yes 5:32 in your book says those who save a life will be as if they save all mankind that is your book and it is America and Friends that are saving Iraq not the mulsum brotherhood!!!

Part of the American Tribe

God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and All who Fight with her give them Strength and Courage to stay the course to Victory Amen

You May ask what is Victory well let me tell you it is FREEDOM!!!!

Isn't this the reason for Guantanamo Bay and military tribunals for terrorists and their supporters?Among other things it's been determined that terrorists are not honorable warriors so they do not deserve the protection of our laws. We also know that lying and hypocrisy are part of the Islamic "faith" along with the fact that Al-Qeada members are taught how to manipulate the laws of western nations.We are at war and the usual rules do not apply during at time of war,thus the use of military tribunals.The Nazi sabatours were tried before military tribunals not in civilian courts and several were executed.Jihadist filth is certainly no better then the Nazi scum.Even an aquittal before a tribual would not result in freedom for a terrorist if it was deemed in the best interest of national security for such a person to remain in custody.That's why there's a good reason why terrorists don't want to end up in Guantanamo or facing a military tribunal.Why do you think Jihadist David Hicks who swore to kill an American when he arrived at Guantanamo want's no part of a military tribunal and is trying desperately to get back to Australia and the civilian courts there?He knows he'll be convicted and rot in prison if he faces military justice as he won't be able to use taqiyya to lie his way out of punishment.As the problems persist with Jihadists and the true fascist face of Islam is exposed, I think the majority of these people will face military rather then civilian justice.That's the appropriate place for war criminals to be judged anyway.We are at war and this is life and death so the usual rules don't apply.

"what is the alternative?

rule of law and right to a fair and impartial trial is what separates us from the animals.

we give up that right then the jihadist have already won" : geekpunk

I agree with Hugh that in times of war it is often necessary to do things that in peacetime we would considered unacceptable. Our ability and willingness to do these things is not a threat to our Democracy, but rather a strength of our Democracy. Our Democracy is not so fragile as to be forever lost by adapting to wartime circumstances, and we should not be afraid to do what is necessary to prevail.

Does this mean that we should recklessly abandon our American values? Of course not. It simply means that we must acknowledge the reality of the situations we face and adapt accordingly. To let a threat exploit us because of our ideals and not adapt would be nothing short of foolish.

Through inaction, it is possible for US to become OUR own worst enemy.

While we continue to address the threat of radical Islam, we also need to reflect and identify our morale equivelancy to that of the Islamic Ideology that we are confronting every day.

The western world who has worked tirelessly to bring tolerance and respect of all religions and ideologies, does have to except and expect that there are those in western civilized nations that do not adhere to the foundational teachings of any religious order. Therefore we can suffer from a bad reflection of those who are free to ignore and not demonstrate a morale foundation as reflected in the Abu Graib prison scandal. This is the extra burden born of such a free and tolerant society. But at the same time it also begs out that this free nation does and should not except the ruiness ideology of secularism being pushed upon it by groups like the ACLU.

America`s foundations`, government, and otherwise are deeply entrenched in Christain and judao teachings and they must be preserved at all costs.

With apologies to Rodgers and Hammerstein.

Please sing this to the Sound of Music tune, "How do you solve a problem like Maria".

He gets Zakat for free and buys an RPG
He hasn’t much upstairs
He murders on his way to Mosque
And kills infidels everywhere
And underneath his turban
He has C4 in his hair
I even heard him say we all should die

He always runs from US soldiers
But his cowardice is real
He always runs from US everything
Except to murder, rape and steal
I hate to have to say it
But I very firmly feel
Osama’s not an asset to the Umma

I’d like to say a word in his behalf
Osama makes me laugh

How do you solve a problem like Osama?
How do you catch a rifle round and pin it down?
How do you find a word that means Osama?
A megalomaniac. A fascist. A clown!

Many a thing you know you’d like to tell him.
Many a thing he ought to understand.
But how do make him stay
And listen to all you say
How do you find a nut in Afghanistan?

Oh, how do you solve a problem like Osama?
How do you hold a moonbat in your hand?

When I’m with him I’m confused
Out of focus and bemused
And I never know exactly where I am
Unpredictable as weather
He’s as flighty as a feather
He’s an a**hole! He is Satan. He’s in a jam.

He’d outpester any pest
Drive a hornet from its nest
He is a whirling dervish out of whirl
He is mental! He’s reviled.
He’s a nutcase. He’s a jinn.
He’s a turd!

How do you solve a problem like Osama?
How do you catch a rifle round and pin it down?
How do you find a word that means Osama?
A megalomaniac. A fascist. A clown!

Many a thing you know you’d like to tell him.
Many a thing he ought to understand.
But how do you make him stay
And listen to all you say
How do you find a nut in Afghanistan?

Oh, how do you solve a problem like Osama?
How do you hold a moonbat in your hand?

Written by Mentat

The nonsense in the respone of one "Bruce Kennedy" to Kirk would be too tedious to deal with at length. Among other things which are flatly untrue, is the astonishing claim of Muslim solicitousness for the religious structures (churches, synagogues, HIndu temples, Buddhist temples), their libraries of ancient manuscripts, their books. Think only of Hagia Sophia, its beautiful frescoes torn apart, every cross broken off, or of the destruction of the tens of thousands of churches in Byzantium -- a sense of the scope of that destruction can be found in Pierre Gilles' (Petrus Gyllius, if memory serves, as it damn well better) Antiquities of Constantinople, or by studying at the scale model of Constantinople, with its hundreds of churches, before its seizure by the Ottomans in 1453 -- it's tucked away on the second floor of the Archeological Museum in the Topkapi complex). In Mesopotamia and Syria and in "Palestine" (a toponym which, given its current tendentious use, needs now to be flanked by the security guards of quotation marks), both synagogues churches were destroyed wholesale, and their stones used to build mosques. The Church of the Holy Sepulchre was completely destroyed by Muslims. Between 1948 and 1967, every single synagogue in the Old City was destroyed by the Jordanian Army (the best-behaved of any Arab army), with ancient tombstones from the Mount of Olives cemetery used to line the floors of Jordanian army latrines. According to the estimates of Indian historians, such as the meticulous K. S. Lal, tens of thousands of Hindu temples were destroyed by the Muslim invaders. He gives a list, which can be consulted. As to Zoroastrianism, as the Encyclopedia Britannica (11th edition, with real scholars as contributors, noted, "the Mohammadan invasion (636), with the terrible perseuctions of the following centureis, was the death-blow of Zoroastrianism." [the Zoroastrians had their fire altars; none survived in Persia]. Not a year ago, Joseph's Tomb and other sites sacred to religious Jews were reduced completely to rubble. The "Palestinian" Arabs thought nothing of using churches as places from which to launch attacks, or in which to seek refuge -- and they have repeatedly done so in Bethlehem.

As to the notion, also expressed by one "Bruce Kennedy" in his reply, that non-Muslims are exempt from military duty -- what can he possibly be talking about? Among those known to be personally are numerous Armenians from Aleppo (Haleb), forced to fight for the Syrian Army, imposing its will on, and killing, fellow Christians. They describe the policy of Alawite officers deliberately putting the Christians in the most dangerous situations. In both Iraq and Iran, Christians were drafted in the Iran-Iraq war. The Egyptian government drafts Copts, even if in civilian life they are subject to the usual persecutions that Islam has brought to such an exquisite pitch.

Taqiyya needs to be a bit more subtle than flat, outright lying. A phrase here that can be interpreted or misinterpreted, a failure to answer a question, all of that is most useful. When lies are offered flatly, as if no one happens to know what has been done by Muslims to the buildings and monuments -- oops, I forgot to mention the complete destruction of the Greco-Buddhist statuary, including the Bamiyan Buddhas -- remember them? -- or no one knows Christians in Syria or Egypt or Iraq or Iran who have been forced to fight, having to rebut this kind of thing is becoming absurd, and exhausting. All of history, visible history, at the Hagia Sohia, at Joseph's Tomb, at the site where the Bamiyan Buddhas once stood, in the records of Christian casualties in the Iran-Iraq War, the Syrian campaign in Lebanon, the Egyptian wars against Israel, should surely be enough.

"Bruce Kennedy," by the way, seems to have a distinctly non-native command of English. I wonder why.

Hugh - thanks again for another well studied reply...maybe you can engage "Bruce" yourself at www.jihadunspun.com

My own reply was more simplistic...but I did promise "Bruce" to make as many people who will listen to me aware of what Islam really is, and what websites such as his represent.

Reza,

Ordinarily your comments are not worth the effort to respond to, but your question, ". . .is it a crime simply to be a Muslim?" IS actually worthy of response, although not for your information, but for the information of other posters.

Upon examination, using objective ethics, epistemology, metaphysics, esthetics, and politics ("politics" is the application of ethics to social behavior), one can only conclude that the logical extension of the active practice of Islam routinely involves criminal activity.

Islam is nothing more than a racket, and the primary function of the Koran is to provide it with a thin disguise of morality. It is through this deception that it can "pass" for a religion, which gives it a certain immunity from thorough scrutiny.

By the way, folks, PLEASE find Hugh's superb article on Islamic strategy, "Islam for the Perplexed."

Read every word.

Cubed or Hugh,

Where can we find "Islam for the perplexed".

I'm interested in reading the essay.

The general thrust of the replies to my initial post seems to be that your inconvenient Western "principles" of justice should quickly be disgarded when dealing with the evil Muslims. Forget "innocent until proven guilty". Forget trial by a jury of one's peers. Forget protections against self-incrimination.

Bring on the military tribunals, the star chamber procedings, the drumhead "trials", and the concentration camps and the scaffolds. The mere fact that a person is Muslim condemns him to banishment, indefinite imprisonment, torture, and death.

So much for your vaunted Western "freedom of conscience". It is obvious to all the peoples of the world that you have no principles. Western "culture" is fundamentally and profoundly immoral, and your man-made laws, which serve only to oppress the powerless, are utterly corrupt.

As I have pointed out numerous times, the long struggle nears its end. Soon enough all mankind will live in accord with Allah's (swt) divine plan, and your corrupt, man-made laws will be replaced by the truth and justice of Islamic law (Sharia).

Truely, your grandchildren will be Muslim. They will rejoice that your immoral and corrupt culture is no more.

Allahu akbar

It doesn't seem as though Muslim posters such as Reza, Mahmoud, Dina, jihadist, etc. should be allowed by their cult to engage in such inter-sexual discourse online. Isn't that like seeing each other naked?

I wasn't replying to your post I was replying to the article. However, military tribunals are what's appropriate during time of war and for war criminals. They were good enough for nazi fascists they are good enough for islamic fascists too.The rules change during time of war and anyone who bothered to study the history of the United States during time of war would know that.Jihadists who violate the laws of war by targeting civilians and not wearing uniforms are in no position to complain if they end up in military courts.

One way to put into proper context any article about Islam is to replace the word 'muslim' with 'nazi'.

Both islam and nazism are socio-political ideaologies and remarkably similar in their intolerance, utter control of everthing, propaganda use, and notions of rule by 'divine right' imposed by their respective cult-of-personality centers.

Try it next time you read a bit of taqiyya: moderate 'nazis', 'nazi' extremists (vs. moderate nazis), 'nazi' fundementalists, and of course, most 'nazis' are peaceful and condemn the actions of the fringe 'nazis'.

So is it a crime to be a 'nazi'? You tell me.

Of course the legal system can't deal with terrorism. Long before Islamic terrorists became a problem, our courts made mistakes; innocent people were jailed, and cases against the guilty collapsed. That's acceptable (though regrettable) when dealing with common criminals, but it won't be good enough against Islamic terrorists. Indefinite detention (under humane, comfortable conditions) is clearly the only available option for those suspected of links with Islamic terror groups, but with one addition - they are free to leave at any time, if they move to an Islamic country. (And when I say 'linked', I mean anyone who goes out of their way to push a fundamentalist Islamic agenda.) Where there is a strong enough case against someone under suspicion, then a normal trial can be carried out, and the detention can then become permanent. If you think this sounds rather draconian, just wait until the next terrorist attack by Islamists. They've openly declared that they want to turn our countries into Islamic states, so anything short of the above measures would be a waste of time, money, and lives.

Reza~ we disagree with the entire PREMISE of your opening statemnet. Therefore nothing to answer.

More bloodshed in Pakistan over who should have been fourth caliph of Baghdad in the seventh century A.D.

http://www.dawn.com/2004/05/31/welcome.htm
Notice the clever use of the name
'Imam Bargah Ali Raza mosque '
to placate both Shias and Sunnis. Shias want their place of worship to be called a mosque but Sunnis call it imam bargah (which is less than a mosque). Yes, the dawn office can be rampaged for calling the imambargah as mosque. Shias cannot openly live as shias lest they be killed.
So, only sure way of killing shias in Pakistan is to attack an imambargah.
If Reza is an Iranian muslim, I wonder if he goes to an imam bargah rather than a mosque. I have seen comments like 'your grand children will muslim' but then our grand children should atleast know who should have been the fourth caliph of Baghdad in the 7th century AD. That apparently has not been decided yet. Allah (swt) ho akbar (Muslim god is the greatest) but question naturally arises, which one ? Shia Allah (swt) or Sunni Allah (swt) ?

Our justice sytem is equipped to deal with people that play by the same rules. Islam does not do that. In fact, not only do they not play by the same rules, they manipulate the system using the tactics of taqiyya and kitman as Reza is doing in his last post. Of course, with 1400 years practice in almost every culture on the globe, they have had a lot of practice.

When the enemy changes, so must our response. We will attempt to maintain as much of our decency and morality as possible, but we will not succumb by allowing an immoral system to trample all over us. No, Reza, your system is the immoral one. Fourteen hundred years of history of blood, conquest, pain and anguish is the proof.

A question for those with better political knowledge: Would a formal declaration of war by Congress on 'forces of violent Jihad aimed at the destruction of America and her allies' be legally and/or conceptually feasible? It certainly isn't politically feasible at this point in time. But Hugh's comments above beg for critical consideration of what formal methods are available in the US to direct economic, military, and social resources most effectively, and justly, at our enemies.

Nobody has told these courts about the concepts of taqiyya and kitman, lying for Islam:

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=178

Likewise, nobody has ever explained to them that the "softer" verses of the Koran are abrogated by the later, more violent ones:

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=288

Raisin

Your granddaughters will wear Jimmy Choo shoes, sex bracelets, too much makeup, really short skirts and be bored to tears to be in the same room with you.

The one good thing that will come out of letting these guys go is the police can watch them like hawks, bug their phones, open their mail, read their emails and generally gather lots of intel.

"Your grandchildren will be skateboarders" (if they aren't already)

Another approach would be to extend mental health legislation. It would be quite reasonable to classify people who advocate mutilating the genitalia of small girls, stoning adulterers to death in public, punishing rapists instead of rape victims, honour killings, and beating women as being criminally insane, and to lock them up.

This, or the detention plus emigration option, could eventually become 'the new pc', done to protect the rights and safety of women and children. It seems draconian now, but that's because we're so used to being force-fed the lie about Islam being a 'religion of peace'. Once enough people have dispensed with that fiction, such draconian measures would acquire a new, 'politically correct' meaning.

I meant 'punishing rape victims instead of rapists' there. All this Islam is rotting my poor brain :-|

Burning a church is definitely the act of someone who is criminally insane. But in Islam, it is a sign of piety, like the destruction of the Bamiyan Buddhas.

Has i'v stated before in this topic -> http://www.jihadwatch.org/cgi-bin/mt-comments.cgi?entry_id=2086

'THE KORAN - MANUAL ON TERRORISM'

http://www.dawn.com/2004/06/01/top1.htm
18 die in blast at Karachi Imambargah

Why is a shia mosque is not even worthy of being
called a mosque ? Why is it an imambargah
(which does
not have the same status as that of a mosque).
I wonder who should have been the fourth caliph of Baghdad in the seventh century AD.

Americans need not feel so self-important any more by questioning 'why do they hate us'. 'They' hate everybody including 'themselves'. Each Islamic sect is armed with the 'final word' of Allah (swt) and will kill anyone who tries to reinterpret or dilute the final word (even if it is about who should have been the fourth caliph in seventh century AD).

naresh c.

Life presents many difficult questions for Muslims, but one of the most important questions they face is who to hate the most. Their default setting is simply to kill whoever is the closest, and this case, it was Muslims of a different sect.

draconian new laws are sorely neede in europe to deal with Jihadist terrorists. Until this is done most will simply walk.
Clinton already showed this back in the first WTC bombing.
You cannot deal with them as you would burglars or shoplifters.
the concept of "treason" should be extended to cover "home grown Jihadists" who regularly preach death and destruction to Western countries with life sentences the norm for those convicted.
Judges must be vetted and "defence Lawyers" held accountable for their deeds.
Juries should not be appointed to deal with such matters

why does reza say ur grandchildren will be muslim?
im from the balkans 500 years of muslim rule made us more christian than ever, did the complete opposite of what he thinks
and we kiked there asses back to the desert and rebuilt a society bigger and better than our old muslim rules who have fallen ever behind morally and ethically and economically beacause they follow the wrong path
balkans is not a safe place for these people any more, they dont even try to come here any more

We saw this business in the war against the IRA. A horrible atrocity is committed, and the police and security services come under enormous political pressure to catch someone. All too often they catch the wrong person.

It's not just an injustice. If you catch the wrong person, the right person goes free.

Hugh,

You forgot to mention that Constantinople was plundered, burned etc first by the Christian crusader hoards in 1204 and not just evil muslims. Its relics distributed to all participating kings and princes of Europe. It seems the crusaders kinda missed a turn on their way to the holy lands (after all who can tell the difference between christian and muslim booty-no distictions made here) , a fact which makes the legitimacy of their operation seem a little unsound, what do you say? So I put it to you: did the crusaders embarking on these ventures, wish solely to liberate the holy lands-to restore them to christ's worship? Or rather, is US involvement in iraq (not to mention all other interventions over the last 50yrs) directed against terrorism or (I can hardly write this without laughing)...at installing democracy. Lets face it, it is a power-wealth game, it always has...and the US is an imperialist power.

delivering democracy...hahahahahaahhahaahahahah delivering bombs more like.

Hugh,
a very convenient ommision indeed. I can't get over your one sided report on events...are you building an army or something?

ohh and Hugh something else. I noticed you accusing some guy of a truly heinous crime...are you ready...apparently he 'does not have a good command of english' , which can only mean...oh god..that he is a commi european or even-can it be-a muslim turd. It reminds me of a song I used to love when i was a teenager 'speak english or die'...

Crusader front (pppfhhhff),

Funny I thougt most people posting here were nazis...your name certainly points that way.

Pro-orthodox,

The only ones who want to come back to the balkans are the yanks...wake up...last i heard it was depleted uranium missiles falling on your heads not arabs wrapped in explosives..mark my words this war is AGAINST EUROPE and it has been so for a long time...the US is outflanking Europe economically (militarily they have always had the upper hand) islam is irrelevant

Hugh,

Blubbering xenophobe...that is the word i was looking for..thats what you are!

OHH and by the way the muslim faith also has great examples of tolerance, multiculturalism etc in the middle ages and now..contrary to what americans think or is being propagated on this site...Unfortunately there is a lot of uglyness nowdays. But I do not hold muslims or americans as responsible for their extreme views. It is understandable and regretable. What I do not look kindly upon is the interventionism and hypocricy of US foreign policy.

What a load of crap...so what about the history lesson..I simply wanted to point out that expediency is behind conquest etc..not culural issiues. The crusaders conquered and plundered Constantinople, which was Orthodox but Christian nevertheless for BOOTY and POWER. It was not in the ideological spirit of the crusades. (As iraq in not in the spirit of anti-terrorism or democracy to all but the blind)Then the Ottoman Turks conquered it in their turn for BOOTY and POWER. BOTH CRUSADERS AND TURKS LOOTED, PLUNDERED AND BURNED...OBVIOUSLY MORE CHURCHES WERE BURNED THE SECOND TIME BY THE SIMPLETON SOLDIERS FOR WHICH ALL STUPID IDEOLOGY IS MADE. Later sultan Mohamed the conqueror restored the greek patriarchate because he realized he could not KILL HALF HIS SUBJECTS. IN THE SAME VEIN US SOLDIERS IN IRAQ THINK THEY ARE FIGHTING FOR DEMOCRACY AND AGAINST TERRORISM. In fact they are now fighting a popular uprising.

Popular uprising? Can you show me where hundreds of Thousands are attacking the soldiers right now?Why aren't our people being overwhelmed?

Or is it more like hundreds, following a religious leader who is being critized even by his own? Or the Al-queda and other groups who are sending their people to Iraq instead of the US?

Arxos,

Which great examples of Islamic tolerance and multiculturalism during the Middle Ages in specific were you referring to?

First, lets define “Middle Ages” for everyone, so that isn’t an issue. The Middle Ages was the time from the collapse of the Roman Empire until the Renaissance, roughly 400AD-1400AD.

Let me see…

Arxos is at least partially correct. No ethnic groups had their rights infringed upon by Muslims from the start of the Middle Ages until the middle of the seventh century. You heard me right; Islam didn’t kill a single infidel for the first 250 years of the Middle Ages…

Then Mohammed was born, and it all went to Hell from there.

Muslims spread their religious “tolerance” of others for the first time by tossing two Jewish tribes of Medina out of Arabia in 627 AD.

Islam further showed its “tolerance” during the Middle Ages in 1066 by slaughtering 5,000 Jews in Granada, Spain, and again in Fez, Morocco, in 1465. Muslim ruler Idris I wiped out entire Jewish communities in the eight century, and the Almohads spread the same “multiculturalism" in North Africa.

Muslim “multiculturalism” was shown in 1014, 1293 and 1301 when decrees were issued to level synagogues in Egypt and Syria., and Jews were forced against Islamic Law to covert or die in Yemen (1165), Morocco (1275) and Baghdad (1333 and 1344).

Are we getting the point, arxos, or do you need more examples of Islamic "tolerance" and “multiculturalism?”

If you can't run with the big dogs, arxos, stay on the porch.

arxos:

In all of your latest postings on multiple threads I noticed that you've resorted to shouting - kind of like the immature ego that thinks that talking more loudly than others will solidify his point.

Since you are in Europe and are woefully ignorant of the extent of the Islamic Threat - either by choice (sheer obstinacy) or through some manifestation of perverse psychology, since you obviously have had the opportunity to inform yourself as to its stated agenda - answer just two questions for me, and please, spare me the omnipresent diatribe. One: When the time comes (and it most assuredly will) what will you do - convert or die? Second: At such time, surely you don't expect the U.S. or anyone else outside of your much-vaunted Europe to save your sorry @ss, do you?

Good questions CGW

Will he convert or die?

Like most continentals, arxos will internally deny the possibility of any outside threat upon his nation/state. They’ve had hundreds of years of denial in the making (despite two world wars), and that kind of idiotic intellectual inertia is hard to stop. Like so many Europeans before him, he will deny the existence of the threat right up until his execution.

As he will be dead, the answer to the second question you posted really isn’t that relevant.

Is it, arxos?

Stop kidding yourselfs much as the pitiful religious ranting/lunacy of Mahmoud, Reza, and Arxos make me seeth with rage at what a bunch of ignorant , tunnel-visioned murderous , hateful fascists they are, and though I can see the obviousnous of what is happening in the world (i.e-muslims in the process of achieving global domination), at the same time I'm starting to run out of confidence for the allies . It really is starting to scare me that the governments,medias and general public in the countries of the west (especially the US and the UK) are so oblivious to the danger and threat that is right under our noses and if this politically correct ignorance continues the enemies are going to exploit this more and more until it's too late,and they've got us in Checkmate and there will be nothing we can do exept fight for our lives.That day is just around the corner and unless the Human Rights/politically correct society and all the rest of the westeners who seem to be living in their own fantasy world don't take action NOW then I truely believe that our grandchildren will either be muslim or will never be born as our civilization will be extinct and lay in smouldering ruin!Think People,stop letting these parasites hord into our country and drain our resources for one.

Right up until the last reporter is shot?

At least something good will come of it...