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June 17, 2004

Calling the Islamic Reform Bluff

A new article by Jihad Watch director Robert Spencer is at Human Events this morning. Here's a sampling:

Eisenhower once famously said that he wanted Americans to have a religion, but he didn't care which one, and that is that.

But Islam is different -- and it isn't just Franklin Graham and Jerry Falwell who say this, but Muslims themselves. At the Jihad Watch website I recently posted a link to an article in which the author recommends that the United States make repudiation of violent jihad a condition for peace and alliance. One would think that moderate Muslims in America, given their claims about themselves, would be tripping over themselves in haste to make this repudiation, but no such luck. One Muslim responded at Jihad Watch: "It is indeed amazing that the unbelivers [sic] presume not only to define Islam, but also prescribe changes ('reforms') to Allah's (swt) commands. Just how do you imagine that you will impose your will on the ummah? … The Islamic Caliphate will soon encompass the Earth, and all corrupt and unjust man-made law will be replaced by Allah's (swt) holy Sharia (Islamic law)."

Ah, but he was no doubt an extremist. Here, then, is an exchange I had recently with another Muslim, an English convert and self-proclaimed moderate. I wrote: "I would like nothing better than a flowering, a renaissance, in the Muslim world, including full equality of rights for women and non-Muslims in Islamic societies: freedom of conscience, equality in laws regarding legal testimony, equal employment opportunities, etc." He retorted: "So, you would like to see us ditch much of our religion and, thereby, become non-Muslims."

In light of attitudes like these, the widespread Western assumption about Islam -- that because it is a religion, it contains core teachings of love, peace and brotherhood that people of good will can emphasize against those who would twist the religion to contrary purposes -- begins to ring hollow. Self-proclaimed moderate Muslims in the United States have insisted that they be regarded at all times as unflaggingly patriotic and filled with civic zeal, whatever unpleasant evidence to the contrary that individual cases may provide. But the forthright rejection of some of the central beliefs of the Western world by the Muslims I have quoted here and millions of others at least raises the possibility that those professed moderates are bluffing. Americans should call their bluff whenever and wherever possible by insisting that they acknowledge the elements of Islamic theology, law, tradition and history that radical Muslims use to justify violence and terrorism, and repudiate those elements not only in words, but in forthright and honest anti-terror efforts within the Islamic community.

It may be, however, that American Muslims as an aggregate will reject those calls to clean their own house, as they have done implicitly up to now. That in itself will be revealing. Those in the West who are as decent as Reagan was must avoid the cardinal temptation of decent men: to assume that others share their fundamental goodness. It is long past time to regard Islam more realistically.

Posted by Robert at June 17, 2004 5:32 AM
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The entire history of Islam -- a belief-system that has its origins in the need for pagan Arabs to justify, and promote, their conquest of the more settled, advanced, rich, and far more numerous populations of Christians and Jews, first in Mesopotamia and Syria, then in Judea, Egypt, North Africa, and Spain, then among the Zoroastrians of Sassanid Persia, and still later, among the Hindus and Buddhists -- demonstrates an aggressive hostility to all other religions, a manichean division of the world between Believer (Good) and Infidel (Bad).

The scholarship is there, but much of it has been ignored in the last half-century or so of apologetics. But, especially given the impulse provided by the scholarship of Bat Ye'or, efforts are now being made, I understand, to locate, and republish, the most relevant scholarly articles on the tenets of Islam as they relate to Infidels, and on the institution of dhimmitude which, through its intolerable combination of economic, political, and social disabilities, imposed a status of humiliation, degradation, and permanent insecurity on all Infidels -- a status which was only relieved, and only in part, and only intermittently, through the military pressure, in some places, by the European powers beginning in the 19th century. That pressure is now off, and the relentless Jihad against the Infidel sovereign state of Israel, whose Jews (many of whom, of course, immigrated from Arab or other Muslim societies within the last generation or two) demonstrates what happens when those condemned to dhimmitude dare to act differently.

The "reformers" tend to focus on what, for Infidels, is the tangential. Shirin Ebadi, for example, much-applauded as a brave Iranian woman, is despised by many of the real Iranian reformers, for her constant theme is that "Islam is not to blame" for the miserable condition of women ahd girls in Iran today, a nonsensical remark belied by the tenets of Islam, and by Khomeini's very first law -- the reduction of the marriageable age of Iranian girls to nine, because that was the age at which Muhammad consummated his marriage to Aisha (who was brought to him, for "marriage," from her swings when she was six, but he demurely waited three years before fully exercising his rights). Just the other day, Ebadi (speaking in Farsi) insisted yet again that all the woes and cruelties and stupidities in Iran had "nothing to do with Islam." But she went further, much further. She blamed the West, darkly muttering about America's deliberate attempt to foment a "war of civilisations." (There is no "war of civilisations." There is, and always has been, the war urged by Islam against all non-Muslims, in order to ensure that the conditions for the spread of Islam meet with no hindrance, anywhere). And then she went tellingly further: she said that once those behind this "war against civilisations" had finished with "Islam," they had their sights set on making war on "Buddhist civilisation." Now this comes just a few years after the Taliban, completing a process of destruction of all Buddhist temples and statuary in Central Asia and India by Muslim invaders, blew up the Bamiyan Buddhas, and was said at the same time as Buddhist villagers and monks are under attack in southern Thailand, as previously they have been attacked, in modern times, in Malaysia and Indonesia. Ebadi is not alone. She is like most of these "reformers." She claims there is nothing in Islam to reform.

But of those who claim that Islam can be "reformed," none give any specifics. How does even the large-hearted, if melodramatic and publicity-houndsih Irshad Manji, propose to swing open those massive gates of ijtihad? How does Sorroush, fresh from his stint at Harvard Divinity School, and back in Tehran, playing that standard creature, the "revolutinary-turned-chastened-reformer" (a category much loved by American foundations dispenssing largesse -- it fits their cliche-ridden profile so beautifully) propose to "reform" Islam?

From Abduh to Afghani, to a host of others, the "reforms" never happened. And those who speak about "reform" almost never discuss the centrality of Jihad, or the need to accept as permanently legitimate the existence, and even the sovereignty of, indigenous non-Muslim peoples -- even in the Middle East. The only kind of "reformer" who should be listened to in Iran, for example, is one who forthrightly examines the treatment of non-Muslims, especially Zoroastrians, Armenians, and Jews, within Iran -- possibly beginning with the studies of Mary Boyce -- and acknowledges the full horror of their treatment, not a thousand years ago, but in modern times, during the reign of Shah Abbas, in the 1660s (see Arakel of Tabriz), and on to modern times, excepting only during the advanced, if enlightenedly despotic, Pahlevi regime.

The only kind of "reform" that has worked, anywhere in the Muslim world, was achieved by Mustafa Kemal, otherwise known as Ataturk. Beginning in 1922, and continuing until his death in 1938 (when Inonu continued to rule, as Ataturk did, non-democratically but in pursuit of furthering Kemalism), Ataturk did what he could, in a whole host of ways not even understood by non-Muslims (what, they may ask, did the famous Hat Act -- which banned the fez or tarboosh -- have to do with the practice of Islam? Quite a bit.) to constrain or limit or make more difficult the practice of Islam. He gave women the right to vote decades before they received that vote in some countries of Western Europe. He adopted the Roman alphabet, and by jettisoning Arabic script, made more difficult the cultural links with what he regarded as the retrograde influence of Arab Islam (not to mention making the reading of the Qur'an in Arabic, and not in approved and sanitized texts -- texts sanitized like those excised Qur'ans presented in the West by such apologetic "scholars" as Michael Sells, but sanitized not so much to fool non-Muslims, as to ensure that Muslims themselves would limit themselves to those parts of the Qur'an (there are some) that did not inculcate the necessity of Jihad or hatred of non-Muslims. He had agents in the mosques, to monitor the contents of the Friday Prayer sermons (the khutbas). He made sure that all the Muslim officials were appointed by the government. He made open war, when necessary, on mullahs, arresting and imprisoning the recalcitrant; he even attacked mosques. He ended the Caliphate (and howls of protest went up from Muslims all over -- including India). He made rising in the ranks of the army conditional on not demonstrating too keen an interest in Islam -- a rule that stands to this day. He limited government service to those who had not received a strictly religious training.

And what was the result? The result was that by limitig or constraining the practice of Islam, rather than trying to change its doctrines -- for the pseudo-reofrmers of today, who never allude to the problem of Muslim teachings about Islam -- have yet to show just how they plan to excise much of the Qur'an and hadith. They do not, because those immutable texts cannot be tampered with. The Qur'an is uncreated and eternal, dictated by the Angel Gabriel to Muhammad, somewhat intermittently, over 23 yesars. As for the hadith, the stories about the deeds and sayings and even silences of Muhammad, these were long ago carefully examined, sifted, weighted, and those deemed "strong" or authentic hadith (out of the many tens of thousands that exist) in certain collections --- Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim being the two that come firs to mind -- that, too, cannot be tampered with.

The world of Infidels once learned, truthfully, about Communism not by listening to agents of the K.G.B., however smooth and plausible, but by heeding defectors from the K.G.B., and reading the testimony of Western ex-Communists who had become disenchanted with the siren song of Communism. One thinks of the Western European contributors to "The God That Failed" -- Ignazio Silone, R.E. Crossman, Arthur Koestler among them, who were supported, and helped by the American government to publicize, the real nature of Communism.

But now, inhibited by the foolish idea that Islam is simply a "religion" and thus cannot be attacked in any way by the government, rather than as a belief-system that contains elements of religious worship (the Five Pillars) the American government is attempting, imperfectly, haltingly, clumsily, and above all inarticulately, to conduct a war that is really a war against the world-wide Jihad, from Abu Sayyaf in the Philippines, to Lashker-Jihad in Indonesia, to Jaish-e-Mohammad in Pakistan, to Hezbollah and Hamas and Islamic Jihad in Israel, to the muhajiroun all over Western Europe, and now in North America, and of course to Al Qaeda, which is merely the name of one of the groups, the one that has received, because of the 9/11 attacks, the most publicity.

That inarticulateness does more than prevent the Americans from winning support among Western Europeans uneasy, but themselves largely inarticulate about, the demographic conquest of their countries from within. It also prevents a clear-sighted understanding of why this war has no end, can only result, in best, at permanent deterrence and, one hopes, a constant undermining of the economic, and political power of Islam, through a deliberate campaign to allow the failures of Islam -- political, economic, moral, and intellectual -- to be fully exposted, without any Muslim peoples or polities still continuing to be propped up, the failures of their belief-system hidden, by Western foreign aid or the grotesque transfer of wealth (the greatest in human history) from the advanced West to Muslim oil states that charge oligopoly rents, and with that unmerited wealth -- the result merely of an accident of geology -- use it to support mosques and madrasas around the world, which in turn churn out jihadis, and otherwise help to create a world that, for those Infidels in whose countries large numbers of Muslims have come to live, have created a world far more expensive (the cost of security, the huge and growing cost of monitoring this domestic Musli population), unpleasant, and dangerous than it might otherwise be.

The lessons of Ataturk, the only man who managed to tame Islam, should be learned. And especially now, when the Erdogan government gives every sign of moving Turkey away from Ataturk, and of using the impending rejection by the EU not to attack the real reason for the rejection (the horrible behavior of so many non-Turkish Muslims that has emboldened even normally accomodating timorous Western Europeans, not to mention the new members of the EU, from Easten and Central and Southern Europe, whose historic experience with Muslim Ottoman rule does not incline them to welcome Turkey as a fellow member, to keep Turkey, as a Muslim state giving every sign of backsliding, out of the EU. Erdogan, with his obvious threats to blame the "Infidels" for Turkey's rejection, aims to either blackmail his way to admission, or -- perhaps from his point of view even better -- to use the rejection to encourage a return to the Muslim fold, by degrees so as not to alarm the large class of secularist Turks whose very existence is a direct result of Ataturk's, not "reforms," limits on the practice of Islam. That, and not the misplaced faith and trust put in the likes of Shirin Ebadi or others who continue to deny that Islam, its tenets, its teachings, its history, explain the distempers of the Muslim world, is what the Muslims need. But if the West continues to misunderstand, and to show that it can continue to be fooled, this will put off the day when Muslims themselves will see the need to carry out such Ataturk-like constraints.

Meanwhile, one should turn to the works and websites of the articulate ex-Muslims, our surest and best guides to what is wrong with Islam, beginning with the inimitable Ibn Warraq and www.secularislam.org, and with Ali Sina, at www.faithfreedom.org, and with the hundreds of similar websites, and the hundreds of thousands of apostates, not all of whom are unwilling to give testimony to unwary Westerners (after all, if they live in the West, they must be as frightened as anyone about the possible demographic triumph of Islam in the very countries where they thought they would be safe in their apostasy), or to otherwise help to improve the confusion, suicidal naivete, and maddening inarticulateness of even those who see imperfectly, as through that famous glass, and with that celebrated adverb, darkly.

Posted by: Hugh at June 17, 2004 7:29 AM

I applaud your efforts and courage
in calling a spade a spade. I would very
much like to see this and your other
articles published in my local newspaper,
in Indiana.
Can this be done? I am willing to help.

Posted by: rba at June 17, 2004 7:36 AM

Mr. Spencer, hakarat ha'emet, as always! Toda raba, Sir.


Oh, yes, and by the way: Islam is NOT a religion; it is a political philosophy that sprung from the *** of Christianity and must be named as such. Moderate Islam is an oxymoron.


Hazak Ve'ematz, Elisheba

Posted by: Elisheba at June 17, 2004 8:07 AM

rba,

While I can't officially for Mr. Spencer, the 'fair use' doctrine as explained to me by Prometheus books allows the quotation, with correct attribution, of small amounts (500 words) of material. See NoJihad for this in action. Bombard the paper with material.

Also, to everyone, Hugh Fitzgerald's "Islam for the Perplexed" is available at Hugh On Islam

Posted by: Ethelred at June 17, 2004 8:27 AM

Well, I think that Islam's showing us the limits of what we in the West can tolerate--but before forgetting the Free Exercise clause, there are plenty of us Christians who aren't about to put a brick through anyone's window or physically attack anyone who worry that any reduction in the FEC will result in people putting us in jail for "hate speech" or "incitement to murder" simply because (a) we believe homosexuality sinful and (b) some jerks killed that Shepard kid in Wyoming.

I don't want to be a dhimmi to bigoted "secularists" (and such people do exist), either.

Posted by: kepha at June 17, 2004 8:35 AM

Dear Muslims,
If every non-muslim would attack and kill you as you do them I don't think you muslims would last very long. But thays not the policy of non-muslims and I for one am glad cause that would make us no better than you. I do agree with you that we should get our ass out from where we are not wanted. But you know uncle sam as well as I do, they want to stick thier noses where ever they want to weather thier wanted or not, just look at those poor indians that were hear before us and we wiped them out or put them on reservations and the poor mexicans we took thier land too in texas,new mexico,arizona, and california. It sucks we poor folks here at home (USA) don't get fair treatment either it all boils down to money. So I do sympathize with you, but theres nothing that can be done without divine intervention from God and He will come again to take up his people to heaven with him. So please stop all the killing and pray to Allah for divine intervention for help its the only way.

With Love, john cole

Posted by: john cole at June 17, 2004 10:50 AM

Dear rba:

Human Events takes my articles on a non-exclusive basis. You are welcome thus to submit this one to your local paper, or let me know what it is and I will do so.

Thanks.
Robert Spencer

Posted by: Robert Spencer at June 17, 2004 11:20 AM


Islam: Reform or face the new Crusade. I think it safe to say, patience and time are running out. These news readings are starting to make my coffee taste sour every morning, and I'm not going to endure this for another 40 years.

Obstinant adherance to a system of beliefs; absolute refusal to allow equal rights for women; condoning either overtly or silently, the actions of martyrs against Jews, Christians, Hindus and Buddhists; murdering and raping blacks in Sudan; plotting the deaths of innocents in the United States...the list could go on til I filled a book.

REFORM. If Islam is truly a "religion of peace" how can you reject the peaceful solution?

Don't make me answer that question. Prove me wrong in my own mind. Show me you are capable of CHANGE.

If not, you will soon have your answer from the world. There are many men and women like myself that will stoke the fires until every person in the West and the Far East is awake, aware and resolute.

What begins as just a tiny ripple ultimately becomes a wave.

Posted by: Foehammer at June 17, 2004 11:44 AM

Islam is dangerous, and gains time and protection operating under the guise of 'religion'.
When China made moves against Falung Gong (sp.?), a new 'religion' being proselitized in China, i was upset. Why would / how could the Chinese government get involved in issues of religion.
With no reflection on Falung Gong, which may well be benign, it is apparent that governments must ensure that what we teach our children as absolute truth, 'gods' truth, a truth that, assumably, we wish the child to act upon literaly when an adult, does not contain the type of poison so much a part of islam.
Thus, our governments must move against any 'religion' whose ' truth' involves human sacrifice, pedophilia, and so forth, and must move against islam, whose 'truth' requires the death or enslavement of all those who refuse to accept islam, whose truth requires women to be chattels, whose truth specifies barbaric punishments for infringements of its tenets, whose 'truth' makes charles manson seem reasonable.

Posted by: dby at June 17, 2004 12:15 PM

Islam's showing us the limits of what we in the West can tolerate--but before forgetting the Free Exercise clause, there are plenty of us Christians who aren't about to put a brick through anyone's window or physically attack anyone

I don't want to be a dhimmi to bigoted "secularists" (and such people do exist), either.

Posted by kepha at June 17, 2004 08:35 AM

well then if you are such a baby and worried about someone calling you a name I will say to you go buy your burka now!!!!

I for one love my short skirts and know the difference of what can hurt me and it aint names! We learned long time ago sticks and stones can break my bones but names can never hurt me!!!

Well in case you have not noticed they are useing sticks and stones FU-K the names!!!

Our Forfathers gave US the 2nd ad why for this reason to protect ourselfs!

Remember a gun in hand is better than 2 cops on the phone!
Now it was the people who had guns in the L.A. roits that are still whole not the winey babys waiting for the cops to come. Yes they are here and want to kill you or convert you Wake UP!!!


He will come again to take up his people to heaven with him. So please stop all the killing and pray to Allah for divine intervention for help its the only way.

With Love, john cole

Posted by john cole at June 17, 2004 10:50 AM

What the hell are you talking about you love the terrorist or what???
A sissy boy well they will kil you first!

Part of the American Tribe
God Bless the USA and her Fighting Forces and All who Fight with her give them Strength and Courage to stay the course to Victory Amen

PSS I aint giving up my FREEDOM love my short skirts!!!

Posted by: Catherine at June 17, 2004 12:59 PM

'I don't want to be a dhimmi to bigoted "secularists" (and such people do exist), either.

Posted by kepha at June 17, 2004 08:35 AM


well then if you are such a baby and worried about someone calling you a name I will say to you go buy your burka now!!!! '

Catherine, why is it you Keep attacking people who'se comments are Plain to Everyone. He's NOT worried about name-calling, he's TAKING A STAND against the idiots who call names. And that is EXACTLY what he is stating. Try reading them a few times over until you get the drift!

Posted by: Gary at June 17, 2004 1:34 PM

If you want muslims to accept your so called "peace" you should tell your so called "governments" to get the hell out of muslim lands, stop supporting dectator rulers all over the world and finally support poor countries to live in dignity. unfortunately, a "vampire" cannot see the sun not because of blindness but cause it kills it. A "vampire" lives only on the fresh blood it sucks from poor victims. millions of poor victims were sucked to death; native americans, mexicans, japanese, west africans, vitnamese, bosnians, albanians, afghanies,iraqies,... the list is painfully long, but the place is so short and so is the life of your so called "civilization".
We, muslims, are ready to live only with "people" who value the meaning of life and living in dignity. "And Allah has full power and control over his affairs but most of men know not" Holy Quran(12:21).

Posted by: blackknight at June 17, 2004 2:05 PM

how pathetic. Can't you do better than that, blackknight?

Posted by: Bob Owens at June 17, 2004 2:18 PM

Robert,

One paper I personally wish you would submit your articles to is The Cincinnati Enquier.

Very few critical articles get into the paper on any subject.

Another thing, where you have cancel/preview/post, you should add an e-mail option.

That way it could be sent right from the article to everyone on my e-mail list.

Just a thought.

Susan

Posted by: Susan B at June 17, 2004 3:19 PM

blackknight
If you value life and want to live with people of dignity then why do you want to kill me and my brothers/sisters. If you were true to your words you would accept me for the person I am and not try to convert me to Islam.
Would you like to live in Peace with me?
Can you tolerate my not being Muslim?
Will you see me as an equal?
Please use the Western (American definitions) when considering these ideas. Peace for me and Peace for you are two different words - just spelled the same.

Posted by: onesandzeroes at June 17, 2004 3:53 PM

Dear Susan B:

The email option is already there. You'll find it on the main page underneath each article.

Cordially
Robert Spencer

Posted by: Robert Spencer at June 17, 2004 4:03 PM

Blackknight,

Yes, we call our part of the world a “civilization.”

We live in a world of hope and light and laughter. We live in a place where art and humanities flourish. We value the freedom of speech. We value the freedom to express ourselves as a culture, and yet we revel in our individuality.

We appreciate the value of hard work and independent thought. We respect people who want to better themselves. We help others, just because we think it is the right thing to do.

You, on the other hand, have no concept of the meaning of life, and obviously know nothing of the western concept of really “living.”

How could you?

You have no literature. You have no art. You cover up or destroy all things of beauty.

You live in a culture that values strict conformity and destroys the freedom to think or act differently. You live in a place where you can be picked up by the secret police in the middle of the night and disappear forever, for the smallest of suspicions, or no reason at all.

You live in a place where fear and darkness rules all.

The difference between our cultures is obvious. We search for truth and understanding among all people, and dream on our best days of creating something like heaven on earth. You defile and destroy and desecrate, creating something like hell everywhere you go.

Tell me, blackknight:

When you look in the mirror…
and you see yourself and all that surrounds you…
does a demon-tortured soul such as your own…
recognize that it’s in Hell?

Posted by: Bob Owens at June 17, 2004 4:44 PM

Thanks Robert,

I guess it would help if I read a little further!!

I just think everyone should know about you, your books and this site.

Posted by: Susan B at June 17, 2004 5:26 PM

It would have been a step to modern enlightment had more muslims been able to embrace the emerging Ideologies of the Jadids or Jadidism of middle Asia, and Russia but the need for the umma did not sit well with islam because they feared that fundalmental islam may lose its base of understanding in attempt to adjust to the modernization of the west. Still the Islamic architects of Jadidism would like to see its revival even though it was nearly crushed by the Russians in the 1920s`. It would be the better choice then the self destruction we are seeing in the growth of Jihadism that is supported by the authoritarian regimes of countries like Iran,Syria, and Saudia Arabia.

Posted by: Mackie at June 17, 2004 7:27 PM

If you want muslims to accept your so called "peace" you should tell your so called "governments" to get the hell out of muslim lands, stop supporting dectator rulers all over the world and finally support poor countries to live in dignity.

Posted by blackknight at June 17, 2004 02:05 PM


Fine with me that means we don't have to feed your kind! we will use our grains for our cars and drill for oil in our own country!

By the Way we want every stinking Muslum out of every western country Yes that includes France and Chec. TOO you go back o the waste land of your muslum land and eat your oil we know you can't farm your book says so!!!

Ishaq:602 “Jadd told Muhammad, ‘Will you allow me to stay behind and not tempt me? Everyone knows that I am strongly addicted to women. I’m afraid that I’ll see Byzantine women and will not be able to control myself.’ The Apostle gave him permission to remain behind. It was about him that Allah sent down: ‘There are some who say: “Give me leave to stay behind and do not tempt me.” Surely they have fallen into temptation already and hell encompasses these unbelievers.’

We say No go back to your desert and your teethless women!!!

Tabari VII:7 “The Prophet married Aisha in Mecca three years before the Hijrah, after the death of Khadija. At the time she was six.”
Mahammad forced himself on her. This is how it happened:
Tabari IX:131 “My mother came to me while I was being swung on a swing between two branches and got me down. My nurse took over and wiped my face with some water and started leading me. When I was at the door she stopped so I could catch my breath. I was brought in while Muhammad was sitting on a bed in our house. My mother made me sit on his lap. The other men and women got up and left. The Prophet consummated his marriage with me in my house when I was nine years old.”
Muhammad raped a baby. I guess you are so proud of worshiping a pig like that, huh


You see we know and can not trust you here in the West So you leave all countrys that are not muslum and we might let you live????

Part of the American Tribe
God Bless the USA and her Fight Forces and and All who Fight with her give them Strength and courage to stay the course to Victory Amen


PS that is the God of the peoples Book the God of the Jewish People who made a woman out of Adams rib not of clay!

Maybe that is why your women aint so nice made from clay in all!!!

Posted by: Catherine at June 17, 2004 7:49 PM

Black Night:

Sounds like the name of one of king Arthurs knights at the round table, did they not participate in the crusades? The question to you ; is why are there so many dictators in your land in the first place? From what I can see , the political climate created by islam has helped to produce these dictators all over your landscape, the power hungry authoritarians they are. We sure would like to stay out of your backward third world countries if only you would stay out of ours.

May I ask what country you are living in? Do you have a free society in your country ? Do the leaders of your country allow free expression and give rights to all and respect to all religions whether they be muslim,jewish,christian,buddhist,hindu,Seike Etc.? just asking.

Posted by: Mackie at June 17, 2004 8:16 PM

what a pity, you might say all that and more but that does not change the fact that your culture lives on "blood". all you said will not bring the millions of people you wasted just for the pleasure of your "Devils". your so called "civilization" is less than 300y and yet you wasted entire nations wihout a blink. you have learned from history that you cannot occupy our lands by force so you made those dectators and sent them one by one to rule our lands on your behalf. what you get in retun is a small contribution from our side to clean the earth from "vampires" so people can live in peace. yet, if you want to come and denounce the policies of your rulers, every muslim will accept you as a human being, otherwise be sure of that your deeds will not pass unrewarded.

Posted by: blackknight at June 18, 2004 3:50 AM

Mr.Black Night:

You have learned from history that you cannot occupy our lands by force so you made those dectators and sent them one by one to rule our lands on your behalf.

Why do I get the impression I am talking to a child ?

So all these despots like Saddam Insane, and Ayatola Humaniac where Americans that where planted over there in places like Iraq and Iran , is that what your saying Mr. Knight?

By the way, why havent you answered even one of my Questions ? It is not as if your going to give away some specific information my terribly mislead friend .

Devils and vampires is it, what have you been doing ; reading novels about dracula or Frankenstein over where ever the heck you are Mr. Knight?

Posted by: Mackie at June 18, 2004 9:36 AM

Blackknight, tell me if you can:

What has your culture brought to this world?

I await your silence.

Posted by: Bob Owens at June 18, 2004 10:38 AM

ignorant as ever, you should read more my enemey. i think you could not complete high school? how pathetic to live in a so called "civilization" and yet to be unable to read. go to a "Library", if you know the meaning of the word, get an "encyclopedia", wow big word for you, look for words like Algebra, Ibnsina, Ibnelhaitham, Ibnroshd,etc.. then come back to talk to me. Not being able to see the sun does not mean it is not there.It is there and been there for millions of years.

Posted by: blackknight at June 19, 2004 11:05 AM

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