I am not at all surprised by this. I basically predicted this would be the outcome many days ago, in fact. The man smelled of deserter from the start -- and we've already seen how frail the loyatlties of Muslims are to the United States over and over again.

What does this say about Islam to Americans? And no, I'm not going to apologize for stating what should be OBVIOUS by now.

Religion before Country? If that's the case, get out. And if it isn't, and you are a Muslim-American, you better start looking closely at your compatriots here, because I for one am going to start keep track of these instances and see what kind of trend we are really looking at. I'm sure plenty of the Politick Correct will do everything they can to say this is just a rare thing, that it means nothing -- but folks, this Muslim-American was a Marine!

My father was a Marine. Marines almost never desert.

Posted by: Foehammer at July 5, 2004 4:58 PM

ITA, the basis of Islam is religion before non-Islamic country. Why are they here? Yeah and what about that other Muslim soldier who threw the grenade into the tent of the Non-Muslim soldiers? How is it the U.S. can accept any Muslims as American citizens let alone in our armed forces when this is the case...the basis of their religion? At some point we will need to amend the Constitution to respond correctly, as in exclude people of belief systems that encompass both religion and government that is incompatible with the Constitution. Islam and the U.S. Constitution/Govt are incompatible. Immigration of Muslims should have been stopped and the Muslims here given temporary resident status and told to resettle out of American in 5 years. Since there is nothing in Islam teaching the Muslims to be truthful to non-Muslims, there is no reason to believe that any oath take in citizenship, government, courts or armed forces are valid. How will we ever win the war on terror (fighting Islam that is attacking the rest of the non-Islamic world) if the enemy has full access to our country and armed forces?

Posted by: Abby at July 5, 2004 8:00 PM

ok i just watched this report on my local news ,,in U.S.A. and ,NO mention of the soldier being a muslim ,,nothing ,,and that is the whole basis for them to keep him alive ,,
our media is bias ,,,do you think if he were christian ,,they would give him a choice the same as this muslim soldier ,,,uumm no !

Posted by: mark7762 at July 5, 2004 8:28 PM

I cannot condemn anyone for saving their own hide. But I will note that Muslims of all nations have to me demonstrated at least one common trait: dishonor. Other words come to mind. Cowardice, for instance. But dishonor sums it up. It is clear that a Muslim need not be from the Middle East in order to exhibit traits common to Al-Qaeda.

Posted by: nt at July 5, 2004 9:09 PM

Maybe they shouldn't be allowed to even serve in the US forces.

And before the left comes in here screaming about the rights of Muslims, I will remind them that serving for your country is a privilege, NOT a right.

Posted by: abad at July 5, 2004 9:11 PM

I'm not willing to condemn a US Marine based on the words of known terrorists. However, this case is very strange I believe this soldier was originally listed as a deserted prior to his appearing as a captive in a videotape.There are still a lot of questions that need answering. One of which is how a US Marine could be lured away by terrorists and why this particular Marine.One report is that this soldier was involved with an Iraqi woman, but how is that possible since we know all muslim women are "virtuous"?

Posted by: Roxane at July 6, 2004 12:15 AM

Here is something we should not forget -- the young man was emotionally traumatized after seeing his sargeant blown up before his face. Every decision he made after that is suspect. Call it PTSD if you will. I would not be in such a hurry to impugn his integrity.

Furthermore, there is another possibility. The young man could have been ordered to do this in order to infiltrate one of these groups. If he gains their trust by these means, then the military has an in with terrorists.

Yes, I know he is a Marine, semper fidelis. The last resort is that he deserted for a base reason such as his ideological orientation. I agree that Muslims lack honor; however, I am willing to give the young man the benefit of the doubt here.

Posted by: caribsea at July 6, 2004 12:43 AM

We need to become aware that this is a holy war. The Musslin world is determined to win this war by any means possible. Musslins that are able to deceive, cheat, steal, murder, abuse Christians and Jews, are held in a very high place. They are searching out the disinchanted and downpoudened of our Western world to convert to Islam and teach them in a very strict manner how to deceive and destroy us.

The teachings of Islam is not at all peaceful, loving, kindness, longsuffering and gentle. The Word of God says that you will know one by the fruits of the spirit. So enough said, you can read it daily in the Word of Our Precious Lord.

There is more said about these times we live in now than in any other time past. These are the birth pains.

Our Government needs to read more of the prophecies and quit telling the citizens that Islam is a peace loving and a good religion.

Musslins have been instructed to make list of Christians and Jews in their areas. So where ever you live there could be someone putting you on a list also. They are deadly serious, we need to get just as serious and put on the full armor of Our Precious Lord Jesus Christ.

Wake up America, wake up

Posted by: lahoma at July 6, 2004 1:22 AM

Oh, by the way there are a few web sites that are quite interesting of this subject. www.khouse.org (go to current events and under that heading go the "Sword of Ala"). www.marshill.org (just a very interesting site by a physician and christian)

Posted by: lahoma at July 6, 2004 1:33 AM

I've seen an article in a British newspaper (I forgot the name of the paper) not so long ago during the Iraq war. The newspaper conducted a poll on the British Muslim society and asked them where they would put their allegiance? Faith or Country?

Interestingly the majority of the respondent(more than 70 % of them) put religion above country.
Well I have a strong belief that this phenomena not only linger in British Muslim but almost all Muslim who live in the west.By allowing them to participate in the armed force, just like slowly building them a trojan horse.

Well, to be fair this case can also happend to other religion, ethnic or race. We could also have the possibility of American Soldier of Chinese heritage reluctantly fight Red Chinese Army.

But on the muslim case, the probability of defection, desertion & insubordination always be much higher due to their religious dogma. Once those muslim soldier study deeper about Koran and blindly accept the koranic version of truth. He will become a potential "Traitor".

This had already happened in Indonesia. In 1999, The Indonesian National Army were deployed in the religious conflict area of Poso and Ambon as a peace keeping force. But some pious muslim soldier in the Indonesian Army sided with muslim insurgent to hunt & destroy the christian community there.

From these example, we can agree on one final conclusion
ONE COULD NOT BE A GOOD SOLDIER FOR ONE SECULAR COUNTRY IF ONE'S A DEVOUT MUSLIM.

Posted by: herman at July 6, 2004 2:55 AM

Should our society survive WWIV historians, everyone will look back at this era in disbelief. It will be impossible to explain the obtuse follies and wishful thinking so rampant.

A constitutional amendment is immediately required to purge our polity of this theocratic 'borg'.

Essentially all of our 'serving' muslims are of the Wahhabist sect. This folly must stop immediately.

What can the DoJ and DoD be thinking?

They need to pull their heads out of their ****** and smell the truth.

Phase one: muslims out of the military....
Phase two: no more green cards for muslims....
Phase three: Constitutional Amendment baring citizenship or residency to Nazis, Communists, Shintoists, Muslims or any other creed/ religion that is profoundly explicitly ANTI-Constitutional.

Advanced military training for muslims under ANY guise is insane.

Insidious Islam has destroyed/ subverted many, many societies. Once in place, it suffers no adjustment or reversal. At this time there is a substantial body of apostates going through the motions of Islam. They are web present.

However, there is no way they can overturn Islamic despotism. We must intervene to destroy Islam -- to save the muslims.

We did it for the Germans and the Japanese. We can do it again.

Posted by: blert at July 6, 2004 4:26 AM

This is another example of whats in store for America if the PC crowd and the Islamists like Grover Norquest have their way.

Obviously it is too dangerous to allow the slow infiltration of our various institutions by Muslim operatives.I think it is fair to question the loayalities of all Muslims and they should NOT be allowed in our military period.

Why is it that the stupid FBI refuses to hire Israelli translators to assist them with Arabic? Israellis are certainally preferable and they command a strong understanding of the Islamic culture and language. But the Inept FBI wants to PC us to death and waste manpower babying the ENEMY.

But, lets face it, there is a lot of OPEN TREASON all around us and without seeming too extreame, it is safe to say that not enough is being done at home to control the spread of these fascist fanatics.

Step one, we must develope a seperate immigration policy for Muslims. To continue to welcome Islamists is akin to welcoming an invading army into Troy, (No Trojan horse necessary). Islam has made itself very clear. They are here to transform America, not support it..understand stupid Islamic enablers?

Immigration policy in fact across the board MUST be addressed before it is too late and America loses its identity. But if allowing every person here with no regard for who they are, what they can contributr etc., especially Muslims, guarantees the Intifida will be coming to a neighborhood near you Allahu Akackbar!

Hate Israel Hell yea, what dumbded down university student hasn't swallowed fishing rod and all,the Bullshit the MSA (Muslim Student Association) teaches them. What idiot can't see that Saudi (AMERICAN) money is paying for the establishment of mosques, student associations, propaganda infrastructure, Legal counsel and Publicty agents (CAIR) here in the heart of Western society?

Shut them down, shut them down now!!! All of these groups are basically invaders who are positioning themselves for the long term conquest of America.

For the sake of the future of this fading great country, please stop the PC baloney that the Islamists are gladly exploiting and remember that this problem exists in America because we imported it here. I remember in 1979 when the Islamists took their hostages and the fanatics were in the streets by the thousands shouting "Dearth to America". I said as a teenager, "yea, thank GOD they're not here!". Well "They're hereee... (Poltergeist).

We thought they would embrace our way of life, warm hearted good will and nieve kindness is not respected by Muslims. They don't and never will accept America as it is.Even the "Moderate" Muslims subscribe to the spirit of Jihad even if their only contribution is wearing a headscarf.

The Lebanese Marine? I'm shocked that this Muslim "Marine" proved himself to be a traitor. I guess 16 weeks in Paris Island was not enough to reprogram his mind from Islam.

Don't believe the Bullshit either. he will not be killed. He will probably disappear to start a new life somewhere.His captors have already been in touch with his relative back in Lebanon. They realize what a great propagand tool he is. But he is Muslim. He will not be killed

The press in America will tout the same psycho-babble baloney that his "Nerves" (PC blame something/someone else horseshit)gave out after seeing his Sarge blown apart...yea right, he was so un-nerved he jouned the savage enemy. Apparantly no fear of death...very strange indeed.

So all you enablers of Islam and perverters of truth who must be so self-loathing that you swallow the Mike Al-Moore and Noam Chomsky garbage and enjoy all the fun and attention that your antics get! So fun, on TV with a "Bush Lied Someone Died " sign, or a Bush head puppet with bloody hands.

Wear your palestinian scarfs around your necks and openly talk of corporate greed while e-mailing your fellow leftists on a Microsoft computer. Your lack of convictions is creating the mess that America is currently witnessing. Your inability to choose right from wrong is your generations shame. But you are not alone, Even those in power like Kerry are guilty of the PC insanity an embracing the fringe at the expense of the crucial. It's a race to the bottom. Just think, for the first time I can remember, The world wishes to influence obviously our Presidental election The WORLD wants Bush to loose! What the hell? I guess the best president for the Muslims is a soft Kerry.That is exactly why you should not vote for Kerry. Just think.

The sickness of Kerry is not Greed, but power. He has enough money, but he want the power to do what...subsidize Mosques, open our borders even more, preach "Conception begins at life" and then support abortions? Make Gay marriage a priority like the newly elected socialist Spanish government did after March 11th?

Posted by: Andrew at July 6, 2004 5:33 AM

I will not be suprised if he shows up in a trainingcamp to teach new loads of mujadiheen, or even join one of the mujadiheenarmies/-groups.

Posted by: wodan82 at July 6, 2004 5:58 AM

Firstly, when I was boy we were taught not to kick a man when he was down. Later, I was taught not to make judgements until all the evidence was in.

Secondly, this guy is fighting for his life. "Death before Dishonour'? B*ll**ks. He who fights and runs away lives to fight another day.

Thirdly, some of this man's family are in the Lebanon and easily targetted by terrorists.

Fourthly, just what is a "place of safety"? Will he ever be allowed to return home? Will he ever see his family again? If he is will he be safe until the war is won?

Fifthly, why believe the enemy? A defection/desertion/conversion is exactly what the doctor ordered to demoralise the troops and create distrust of all Muslims. The latter in turn will feel persecuted - especially if they read some of your comments - and more likely to turn to Al-Qaeda.

I hold no brief for Islam, but we are asked to be as innocent as the dove and as wise /cunning as the serpent.

This story isn't over yet and we may never know its final outcome for the good and simple reason that innocent peoples' lives could be at risk.

Posted by: Ian at July 6, 2004 11:57 AM

Ian:

Either you are new to this site, or hopelessly naive...

Posted by: jawa at July 6, 2004 2:04 PM

Ian,

There is but one official fact that bears repeating.

This soldier willingly went AWOL from his unit in a warzone.

This act of treason carries with it the death penalty.

That is all that needs to be said.

Posted by: Bob Owens at July 6, 2004 8:13 PM

Welcome back Bob Owens.

Posted by: jawa at July 6, 2004 9:06 PM

By the time of the Visigothic sack of Rome in 410AD, the Western Empire was much dissipated - the old gods were gone forever, the aristocracy was more depraved than ever, the arts and theatre were decadent, the splendid towns and cities’d become teeming, fœtid slums, the rural citizenry had been impoverished and transformed into quasi-serfs and the once-proud Imperial Legions were now composed of MERCENARIES, mostly German tribesmen.

More Germans perched on the thinly-defended frontiers to the north, protected on the Roman’s behalf by Ostrogoths, in border-zone settlements. Persuaded by promises of gold, they joined with their invading kinvolk in the attack. Piracy in the Mediterranean Sea had grown rife, as trade declined generally; there were waves of lethal, unprecedented plagues in Italy.

Though the Eastern Roman (Byzantine) Empire, as well, suffered from the epidemics and was ravaged by the Goths, it did manage to hang on, then even to hold its own against the Parthians on the boundary of Persia, wielding armies conscripted from its own residents. It preserved a functional level of authority and internal cohesion, albeit regularly via draconian methods.

The fall of Constantinople to rampaging Islam was the Byzantine remnant’s demise, taking place as late as 1453, more than a millennium after the collapse of Rome. During its final 850 years, however, the Eastern Empire got progressively smaller, till it was compressed into one City.

The Western Empire - if not for the potency of the distinct, pacifist doctrines in its new, official religion, Christianity - at that juncture, 410AD, would probably have been on the verge of violent political Revolution. But the combined Germanic hordes arrived first, making easy pickings of Rome, soon breaking the Empire into a scattering of competing, primitive fiefdoms, scraping and squabbling amid the ruins, for the following 700 years of Dark Ages in Europe.

From this, it looks like among the key ingredients to withstand the aggression of barbarians is to maintain an adequate level of socio-cultural unison, of morale and materiel, in the inhabitants of an empire, or in any entity that’s similarly menaced. In the circumstances of threat, there must be THE WILL TO WIN - specially when confronting the 21st Century Jihad, an epochal, existential struggle, determining the shape of the future era.

What there must NOT be is a Military that’s excessively composed, up and down, of personnel who are liable to defect to the enemy! - What fresh sorts of psychological tests will have to be devised? Indubitably, not all Moslems will turn out to be deserters, nor will all deserters be Moslems. Statistical tendency isn’t proof, but with a force that consists heavily of Moslems, the number of deserters and spies would be inclined to be bigger in a conflict with fellow-Moslems.

In the horrors of WWI, there hadn’t been any disproportionate amount of German-American defectors to the Kaiser, nor in WWII to the Nazis. Virtually every Italian-American was true to the USA, when participating in the liberation of Italy from Fascism. The Japanese-American GIs (despite what they knew their families back Stateside were being subjected to) were all staunchly loyal to the USA - though they fought solely in Europe, never in the Pacific.

Notwithstanding, it could be somewhat different in the case of Moslems, in the “War on Terror”. Islam contains a lot of constituents that are incompatible with the West, but further, so far in this confrontation, the dar el-Islam has not collectively DONE much of value to elicit the essential element of Trust in it by the US, its Allies or their associates nations.

Plus, there’s positively no GUARANTEE that what’s operated reliably before will work every time: gaze upon the record of Imperial Rome….

Posted by: HGII at July 6, 2004 10:06 PM

One sometimes hears the charges of "dual loyalty" flung at those who, because of some tie, ethnic or religious, they are said to have a loyalty beyond that to the United States. This is particularly true, it is said, when it comes to foreign policy. So, it is not surprising that Senator Sarbanes is particularly keen to ensure a hearing for Greek interests vis-a-vis Turkey or Turkish Cypriots; it it not surprising that Jewish supporters of Israel should take a keen interest in that country's wellbeing; it is not surprising that Polish-Americans might take an interest in Poland's ability to maneuver between the Scylla of Germany and the Charybdis of Russia; it is not surprising that Mexican-Americans might have their own thoughts as to how the United States should offer preferential treatment to Mexico, and so on.
But it is not "dual loyalty" that is a problem with adherents of Islam. It is, rather, that as part of the belief-system, no loyalty at all is to be extended to the Infidel nation-state -- except the feigned loyalty necessary to promote Islam, and the interests of Muslims, by obtaining citizenship and establishing oneself in a country from which da'wa (the Call to Islam) may be promoted. It is this "single loyalty" that needs to be examined. Infidels cannot be supported, not in wars in which the enemy are Muslim states or peoples. But it goes far beyond that. One could not say of the Greek-Americans, Jewish-Americans, Polish-Americans and so on, mentioned above, that whatever the pressures or concerns they might bring to bear on the fashioning of some foreign policy matters, they in no way attempt to change the very nature, from within, of American society. They are happy with the United States, and loyal to the ideals, including those enshrined in the Constitution, not in the sharia. But the same cannot be said for Muslims -- except for a very few exceptions. They do not recognize the legitimacy of a secular Infidel state, but wish, hope, and will, to varying degrees, and with varying degrees of explicitness, work to undermine the very nature of that Infidel society. Islam does not recognize real pluralism, based on equality; it denounces it, and insists on conversion, or killing, of non-Muslims, or in the case of the "People of the Book" (ahl al-kitab), a status of dhimmitude, permanent humiliation, degradation, and insecurity.
The problem is not this particular deserter, nor the cases of Muslim soldiers who have killed their fellow Americans. Nor is it the evident lack of Muslim solidarity with non-Muslim Americans, and an evident solidarity, instead, with other Muslims. Those whose precepts are derived from Qur'an and hadith, those whose daily news far comes from Arab newspapers and Al-Jazeera (which has 180,000 subscribes in the United States) are of course security risks. How could it be otherwise, given the teachings of Islam? Are we fools who are simply going to ignore the lessons of 1350 years of history? And even if this or that individual seems to be trustworthy, there is always the "dormant virus" or "Manchurian candidate" problem. Not continued sentimentality, but sobriety, is needed here -- here and everywhere in the lands of the Infidels.

Posted by: Hugh at July 7, 2004 11:38 AM

Amir Tahini wrote a column in the NY Post today that seems to be a promotion of Sharia regarding the trial of Saddam Hussein. Of course, the article makes no mention of honor killings, honor rapes, death penalty for apostasy, (conversion out of islam which is only removed if the apostate denounces his decision to convert), and the fact that non-muslims have few rights as compared to muslims.

Hugh, as always, is absolutely correct in his analysis. We will indeed be fools if we continue to ignore the 1350 history of islam.

Posted by: jawa at July 7, 2004 12:04 PM

We are clearly into warm and friendly welcomes here.

I am new to this site and I am NOT hopelessly naive. I have had far more to do with muslims and Islam than most Americans will ever have. They, muslims, are generally decent people in bondage to a terrible and cultic religion.

As a teacher of religious education, I have studied and taught about all the major faiths, which is why I am a committed Christian. It is also one reason why I no longer teach. I cannot pretend that Islam, amongst others, is the equal of Judeo-Christianity. It would be intellectually dishonest.

As for the facts about this young man, there seem to be several accounts. Some say he went AWOL but no-one seems sure why. I refer to his family in Lebanon. It seems to me that putting a muslim into battle against other muslims is hopelessly naive - especialy when it is known that pressure can be brought to bear.

It is interesting to note that the issue of conscientious objection was much more debated in WW1 when Christians went into battle against Christians than in WW2 when we went into battle against Nazis.

On a personal note, my life and the lives of friends, have been much more endangered by the US funded Sinn Fein/IRA terrorists than by the muslim shopkeepers I see every day. But I still believe that we are in a war and a necessary one. In fact, it is one I have been predicting for some years. I have warned muslim students of mine that Islam could not win in a conflict against the West.

It's just that I don't see much point in futile expressions of hatred against an individual whose full circumstances we do not know. If that's naive then I guess I'm guilty - but I'm in good company.

Finally, I object to patronised by a contributor who does not put a name to his/her opinions but instead calls him/herself after a coffee bean and an Indonesian island.

Posted by: Ian at July 7, 2004 6:51 PM

We are clearly into warm and friendly welcomes here.

I am new to this site and I am NOT hopelessly naive. I have had far more to do with muslims and Islam than most Americans will ever have. They, muslims, are generally decent people in bondage to a terrible and cultic religion.

As a teacher of religious education, I have studied and taught about all the major faiths, which is why I am a committed Christian. It is also one reason why I no longer teach. I cannot pretend that Islam, amongst others, is the equal of Judeo-Christianity. It would be intellectually dishonest.

As for the facts about this young man, there seem to be several accounts. Some say he went AWOL but no-one seems sure why. I refer to his family in Lebanon. It seems to me that putting a muslim into battle against other muslims is hopelessly naive - especialy when it is known that pressure can be brought to bear.

It is interesting to note that the issue of conscientious objection was much more debated in WW1 when Christians went into battle against Christians than in WW2 when we went into battle against Nazis.

On a personal note, my life and the lives of friends, have been much more endangered by the US funded Sinn Fein/IRA terrorists than by the muslim shopkeepers I see every day. But I still believe that we are in a war and a necessary one. In fact, it is one I have been predicting for some years. I have warned muslim students of mine that Islam could not win in a conflict against the West.

It's just that I don't see much point in futile expressions of hatred against an individual whose full circumstances we do not know. If that's naive then I guess I'm guilty - but I'm in good company.

Finally, I object to patronised by a contributor who does not put a name to his/her opinions but instead calls him/herself after a coffee bean and an Indonesian island.

Posted by: Ian at July 7, 2004 6:55 PM

We are clearly into warm and friendly welcomes here.

I am new to this site and I am NOT hopelessly naive. I have had far more to do with muslims and Islam than most Americans will ever have. They, muslims, are generally decent people in bondage to a terrible and cultic religion.

As a teacher of religious education, I have studied and taught about all the major faiths, which is why I am a committed Christian. It is also one reason why I no longer teach. I cannot pretend that Islam, amongst others, is the equal of Judeo-Christianity. It would be intellectually dishonest.

As for the facts about this young man, there seem to be several accounts. Some say he went AWOL but no-one seems sure why. I refer to his family in Lebanon. It seems to me that putting a muslim into battle against other muslims is hopelessly naive - especialy when it is known that pressure can be brought to bear.

It is interesting to note that the issue of conscientious objection was much more debated in WW1 when Christians went into battle against Christians than in WW2 when we went into battle against Nazis.

On a personal note, my life and the lives of friends, have been much more endangered by the US funded Sinn Fein/IRA terrorists than by the muslim shopkeepers I see every day. But I still believe that we are in a war and a necessary one. In fact, it is one I have been predicting for some years. I have warned muslim students of mine that Islam could not win in a conflict against the West.

It's just that I don't see much point in futile expressions of hatred against an individual whose full circumstances we do not know. If that's naive then I guess I'm guilty - but I'm in good company.

Finally, I object to patronised by a contributor who does not put a name to his/her opinions but instead calls him/herself after a coffee bean and an Indonesian island.

Posted by: Ian at July 7, 2004 7:41 PM

Sorry about the multiple entries. I kept getting strange error messages and so I retried.

Posted by: Ian at July 7, 2004 7:44 PM

Don't worry about the multiple posts...we knew you were new here. No hate here, just awareness. You do not know enough of this story. We here in the U.S. do not have a draft. Hassoun VOLUNTARILY joined the marine corps - after 9/11. Pressure to bear? Why would he join? If you truly were a "committed Christian", you would never stop teaching, especially because of the truths you claim you know. On a personal note, we here in the U.S. have lost more lives and are in more danger from radical muslims. That is the fact. We don't agree with terrorism in any form, that includes Sinn Fein. You should stay with this board...and yes, you are welcome here; learn as much as you can quickly because you still are naive, and no you are not alone.

Finally, I guess you don't live in a very multicultural society...my name IS Jawa, no more anonymous than "Ian"...your comment about coffee beans was pretty foolish.

Posted by: jawa at July 8, 2004 12:52 AM

Jawa,

My sincere apologies, but between my bifocals and my rather ancient browser and Mac it did look like Java.

Re your posting and mine. The pressure I was referring to was not pressure to join the Marines. Read it carefully. I meant the pressures that could be brought to bear on his family, especially those in the Lebanon, by the terrorists. Anyway the story gets murkier and murkier. How many levels of bluff could be going on here? After all he's gone back to a US Enbassy voluntarily as well. Let's just wait and see before rushing to judgement.

As for a multi-cultural society, you have no idea! My Hindu neighbours come from the West Indies; our treasurer at church comes form a Hindu/Sikh background before she converted; we have blacks, whites, asians and orientals at our church; I number muslims, Greek Cypriots and Nigerians amongst my friends; the latter fled Islamic persecution and we fought quite a battle to get him and his family permission to stay.

You have never taught Religious Education in a state school. When I was asked, at a job interview, if I intended to evangelise in the lessons - they would never ask a muslim - I knew my days were numbered. The inability to get promotion because I was a white Christian Male; the fact that I demanded high standards of work and behaviour - discipline interpreted as prejudice; the physical and verbal assaults from pupils and it was then twisted round to see what I might have done to provoke it - answer "I wanted my pupils to do well and demanded high standards from all of them regardless of colour, creed or sex." ; the assumptions made about my political views and teaching methods simply because I was a WASP male; and all of this without the support of an ignorant church other than to get the sort of ill-informed remark you have made about needing Christians in schools.

As for lives lost to terrorism, or lives destroyed by terrorism, over the years and on a percentage basis I wouldn't be so sure about who has lost the most lives. I just know people who were there when the bombs went off. I have seen the ugly backlash it engendered. I know of innocents who fell foul of prejudice because of the backlash to terrorism. I'm not saying we shouldn't stand up to terrorism, I am saying we shouldn't descend to their level.

I street-preached the gospel after the Birmigham bombings and by a miracle escaped being torn apart by a neo- Nazi mob.

I have been vilified as a nigger-loving, paki-loving leftie and as a far right WASP! It's called being a Christian.

At 51, I don't consider myself naive. I've taught in schools; run a community centre; started two businesses; found time to help plant a church; get married; be a methodist local preacher; sit on umpteen committees including local government , police and race relations committees; help my immigrant neighbours to cope with Engish-language forms; start a folk club;play in rock band; sing in the choir.....

I've been at the sharp end of discrimination since I was a working class kid in a private school.

No, I don't think I'm naive.

I've had to teach Islam to muslims. It's not something I'm in a hurry to do again. Religious Education is multi-faith these days and it does no-one any justice. One interesting and significant thing I've learned is that most Muslims know less about what they are supposed to believe than I do.

We don't fight individuals, but an ideology . Some of the hardest working and best behaved kids I taught were muslims, but I still think they are deceived.

Posted by: Ian at July 9, 2004 6:08 AM